Russian forces capture Bakhmut after NATO media claimed they'd retreat.

[Sunsettommy]

Responsible Statecraft

What does the fall of Bakhmut in Ukraine really mean?


New realities on the ground could take NATO’s involvement to the next level. A Q&A with Anatol Lieven & George Beebe.


Written by Kelley Beaucar Vlahos

May 24, 2023


Excerpt:



Reports indicate that after months of fighting, the Russians have taken the eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut. This comes at a time when world leaders are pledging more aid and weapons — including sophisticated, American-made F-16s — to Ukraine in hopes that its armed forces will be able to mount a much anticipated counteroffensive this spring.


I asked the two top Russia experts at the Quincy Institute — Anatol Lieven and George Beebe — for their candid takes on what this apparent victory for Russia really means, and how it might change the war’s landscape.


Additionally, what might we read into the transfer of F-16s to Ukraine, and does it risk escalation into a broader NATO-Russia conflict, given the new facts on the ground? Where does that leave those who would like to move away from fighting and to a ceasefire?


LINK


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It doesn't look good for Ukraine..... NATO may escalate the war which would be stupid as hell as the economy of Europe is already suffering from this wasteful war.

[UKSmartypants]

WARNING: PERSONAL VIEW

So fuck off if you disagree.

I dont actually see the importance of Bahkmut, so Zelensky;'s claim it would change the course of the war was probably just theater to beg for weaponry. The place does not overlook or control an important land feature, such as a pass, a harbour, or high ground. Its a pointless battle. wagner has also just walked away, leaving the town in the hands of the raw russian conscripts

The reason this has gone on for so long is , i think the failure of the west to provide the real killer weaponry. The failure to provide very long rang missile is down to the fear the ukranians might bomb Moscow, 500 miles away, and start WW3. Russian has been going for so long because its fighting a war of attrition, where it has vast reserves of equipment from the old USSR (which it has now nearly burned through) and unlimited cannon fodder. Plus Putin has an iron grip at home, which is going to make it hard to overthrow him, although there are signs of dissent growing - an anti russian rebel group has started attacking russian army posts, and Khazakstan and Leninigrad are talking independance.

The weapons the west has sent recently must be a game changer, Challenger and Leopard tanks, and F16 jets. Plus Storm Shadow mach 0.95 long range cruise missiles. Ukraine hasnt deployed any of this yet.

[squidward]

The Biden regime only lies about elections, domestic issues, green, climate, the border, white terrorism, gender, race issues and Trump.
On Ukraine, they're legit

[squidward]

WARNING: PERSONAL VIEW

So fuck off if you disagree.

I dont actually see the importance of Bahkmut, so Zelensky;'s claim it would change the course of the war was probably just theater to beg for weaponry. The place does not overlook or control an important land feature, such as a pass, a harbour, or high ground. Its a pointless battle. wagner has also just walked away, leaving the town in the hands of the raw russian conscripts

The reason this has gone on for so long is , i think the failure of the west to provide the real killer weaponry. The failure to provide very long rang missile is down to the fear the ukranians might bomb Moscow, 500 miles away, and start WW3. Russian has been going for so long because its fighting a war of attrition, where it has vast reserves of equipment from the old USSR (which it has now nearly burned through) and unlimited cannon fodder. Plus Putin has an iron grip at home, which is going to make it hard to overthrow him, although there are signs of dissent growing - an anti russian rebel group has started attacking russian army posts, and Khazakstan and Leninigrad are talking independance.

The weapons the west has sent recently must be a game changer, Challenger and Leopard tanks, and F16 jets. Plus Storm Shadow mach 0.95 long range cruise missiles. Ukraine hasnt deployed any of this yet.

Sounds almost as if this is really Ukraine's war and it's really Ukranian lives that are of concern,.......really

[WarriorRob]

WARNING: PERSONAL VIEW

So fuck off if you disagree.

I dont actually see the importance of Bahkmut, so Zelensky;'s claim it would change the course of the war was probably just theater to beg for weaponry. The place does not overlook or control an important land feature, such as a pass, a harbour, or high ground. Its a pointless battle. wagner has also just walked away, leaving the town in the hands of the raw russian conscripts

The reason this has gone on for so long is , i think the failure of the west to provide the real killer weaponry. The failure to provide very long rang missile is down to the fear the ukranians might bomb Moscow, 500 miles away, and start WW3. Russian has been going for so long because its fighting a war of attrition, where it has vast reserves of equipment from the old USSR (which it has now nearly burned through) and unlimited cannon fodder. Plus Putin has an iron grip at home, which is going to make it hard to overthrow him, although there are signs of dissent growing - an anti russian rebel group has started attacking russian army posts, and Khazakstan and Leninigrad are talking independance.

The weapons the west has sent recently must be a game changer, Challenger and Leopard tanks, and F16 jets. Plus Storm Shadow mach 0.95 long range cruise missiles. Ukraine hasnt deployed any of this yet.

My personal opinion is Russia is hitting the weapons as soon as the weapons enter Ukraine, when the leopard Tanks and F16 jets enter Ukraine the Russians will just destroy them as well.

Ukraine is running out of men to die in the Battlefields, they need peace not endless War, at this point it's just ethnic cleansing

[EGarak]

Despite claims from Western media outlets, which asserted just recently that the Russian campaign for Bakhmut was on the verge of collapse

When someone says "Western media", I think Western Media. Outlets like the BBC, France Télévisions, DR and Deustche Welle. Do you have any links that show these media outlets making such claims?

[Oceander]

My personal opinion is Russia is hitting the weapons as soon as the weapons enter Ukraine, when the leopard Tanks and F16 jets enter Ukraine the Russians will just destroy them as well.

Ukraine is running out of men to die in the Battlefields, they need peace not endless War, at this point it's just ethnic cleansing

Maybe you should ask General Prigozhin for his views on the situation; after all, he is head of the Wagner Group. Tell you what, I'll save you the time and quote him for you:

If at the start of the special operation they had 500 tanks, hypothetically speaking, now they have 5,000 tanks. If 20,000 men were able to fight before, now it’s 400,000. How have we demilitarised it? Turns out we did the exact opposite. Fuck knows how, but we’ve militarized Ukraine. I think that today Ukraine has one of the strongest armies.

See here for the rest of the story: Wagner Leader says Russia has already failed in Ukraine. (thepoliticsforums.com)

So, who you gonna believe? The pro-Russian propagandists on this forum, or the guy whose own troops are knee-deep in their own blood?

[Sunsettommy]

Maybe you should ask General Prigozhin for his views on the situation; after all, he is head of the Wagner Group. Tell you what, I'll save you the time and quote him for you:



See here for the rest of the story: Wagner Leader says Russia has already failed in Ukraine. (thepoliticsforums.com)

So, who you gonna believe? The pro-Russian propagandists on this forum, or the guy whose own troops are knee-deep in their own blood?

The man is a loose cannon with NO military training and is a Businessman, but the PMC Wagner group he heads isn't Russian army it is a Private Army/Paramilitary with some equipment from the army which means Ukraine ARMY lost the city to a Private Military company headed by a Businessman which means he doesn't represent the Russian military or the government and that Ukraine army isn't strong.

There is a large Russian Army group in the waiting in the region for the purported Ukraine counter offensive to deal with.

[Call_me_Ishmael]

Maybe you should ask General Prigozhin for his views on the situation; after all, he is head of the Wagner Group. Tell you what, I'll save you the time and quote him for you:



See here for the rest of the story: Wagner Leader says Russia has already failed in Ukraine. (thepoliticsforums.com)

So, who you gonna believe? The pro-Russian propagandists on this forum, or the guy whose own troops are knee-deep in their own blood?

Are you serious? You think a person in Wagner's position is above making public misinformation/disinformation? You think he doesn't know how to use the western media as a weapon? You think he's ignorant of Sun Tzu's

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."

?
The Art of War is a very little book that even a guy like Prigozhin and his advisors can read over dinner.

Wow. An easy believer!

[Oceander]

Are you serious? You think a person in Wagner's position is above making public misinformation/disinformation? You think he doesn't know how to use the western media as a weapon? You think he's ignorant of Sun Tzu's
?
The Art of War is a very little book that even a guy like Prigozhin and his advisors can read over dinner.

Wow. An easy believer!

Wow. You so desperately need to believe in your own false narrative, that not even raw fact from the people you think you support will rock that baseless faith.

How absolutely pathetic.