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Thread: An Honest Libertarian Discussion Thread

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Authentic View Post
    The North American continent is going to organically break apart into separate political entities. I want to ensure that certain people get their slice of the pie.

    You don't need the details. You don't have the psychological mindset, evidenced by your affinity for anarchy. It is hard enough to get people who should be predisposed to the concept to take the one perfectly legal neccessary initial action.

    I haven't yet, but am in the process.

    The visible results from that action done individually on a mass scale are years from bearing fruit.

    That is all I will say on the topic for now, publically.
    On that we agree. The empire/nation is going to break up into smaller political units. I'll also concede that going from an empire/state to anarchy of the sovereign individual is probably a leap to far at this time. Going from a empire/state to smaller political units to smaller political units, etc. One thing that isn't considered is technology and how that will allow for the sovereign individual the freedom like never before.

    Ever hear of the network society? I don't necessarily buy this line, hook, and sinker but it something that might be considered as society and technology advances.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Networ...20technologies.

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  3. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Authentic View Post
    For those who want to go the constitutional convention route, here is my suggestion:

    Make all the federal laws, including the tax code, fit in one middling length normal sized page book in easy to read font and double spaced. When the book threatens to get too big to hold in two hands or at most to lay flat from the center on a desk, repeal some laws.
    Good idea but I'm afraid I won't be a representative to the convention.

  4. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Ah ha now we get to the point of the discussion. If anyone can find fault with Locke's Life, liberty, property hypostases than one has to draw the conclusion that that person has a problem with freedom and prefers the heavy hand of the state and very limited freedom of the sovereign individual.
    When I studied Locke in college, some of my classmates didn't like that Locke's A Letter Concerning Toleration applied only to Christians.

    They weren't too thrilled with his distaste for atheism either.
    Last edited by Authentic; 06-23-2022 at 09:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Authentic View Post
    When I studied Locke in college, some of my classmates didn't like that Locke's A Letter Concerning Toleration applied only to Christians.

    They weren't too thrilled with his distaste for atheism either.
    That would have been normal for the day Heck, most Christians dislike Atheists even today. If you had really studied Locke you would see that like many of us Locke changed and modified his philosophy over time.

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    In discussing ancient Celtic tribal anarchy the Celtics had a vertical and horizontal check on power. The American Indians had the same thing. No one person could ever have that much power over others.

    When this country was formed we had this vertical and horizontal checks and balance. The president represented the nation as a whole, the vertical check. The House represented the People and the Senate represented the several States and three separate and equal branches of the national government is the horizontal check. We have destroyed that checks and balance.

    Self government only works if we are a self disciplined people. Will anarchy work, only if we are a self disciplined people and have a vertical and horizontal checks and balance. Now if it's human nature to lack self disciplined than no government and/or anarchy will ever work. Than we are doomed to slavery and being ruled by insane despots for all eternity. However, in small communities of self disciplined people Libertarianism and anarchy might work but I'll admit that neither will never work with empire/nation states.

    I'm willing to go into this in more depth if people want but I'm not going argue.

  7. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    In discussing ancient Celtic tribal anarchy the Celtics had a vertical and horizontal check on power. The American Indians had the same thing. No one person could ever have that much power over others.

    When this country was formed we had this vertical and horizontal checks and balance. The president represented the nation as a whole, the vertical check. The House represented the People and the Senate represented the several States and three separate and equal branches of the national government is the horizontal check. We have destroyed that checks and balance.

    Self government only works if we are a self disciplined people. Will anarchy work, only if we are a self disciplined people and have a vertical and horizontal checks and balance. Now if it's human nature to lack self disciplined than no government and/or anarchy will ever work. Than we are doomed to slavery and being ruled by insane despots for all eternity. However, in small communities of self disciplined people Libertarianism and anarchy might work but I'll admit that neither will never work with empire/nation states.

    I'm willing to go into this in more depth if people want but I'm not going argue.
    John Adams, a man of particularly strong moral convictions, foresightedness and intelligence.


    John Adams Proposes a Plan for a New State Government with Three Branches

    byJustin McKinney

    Author: John Adams
    Date:1775

    Annotation:

    By the end of 1775, compromise between Britain and its colonies was becoming a less viable option. Richard Henry Lee (1732-1794), a delegate to the Second Continental Congress from Virginia, asked John Adams to help him convince his home state of the need for independence. In response, Adams proposed a plan for a new state government with three branches. This letter offers one example of the way that patriots experimented with new systems of government based on reason and their analysis of human nature as being inevitably inclined toward corruption and the abuse of power unless checked and balanced by competing power. After his return to Congress and with the Massachusetts delegation’s agreement, Lee proposed a congressional resolution for independence.

    Document:

    The Course of Events naturally turns the thoughts of Gentlemen to the Subjects of Legislation and Jurisprudence, and it is a curious Problem what Form of Government is most readily & easily adopted by a Colony upon a Sudden Emergence. Nature and Experience have already pointed out the Solution of this Problem, in the choice of Conventions and Committees of Safety. Nothing is wanting in addition to these to make a compleat Government, but the Appointment of Magistrates for the due Administration of Justice.

    Taking Nature and Experience for my guide I have made the following Sketch, which may be varied in any particular an infinite Number of Ways, So as to accommodate it to the different genius, Temper, Principles and even Prejudices of different People.

    A Legislative, an Executive and a judicial Power, comprehend the whole of what is meant and understood by Government. It is by balancing each of these Powers against the other two, that the Effort in human Nature toward Tyranny can alone be checked and restrained and any degree of Freedom preserved in the Constitution.

    Let a full and free Representation of the People be chosen for an House of Commons.

    Let the House choose by Ballot twelve, Sixteen, Twenty four or Twenty eight Persons, either Members of the House, or from the People at Large as the Electors please, for a Council.

    Let the House and Council by joint Ballot choose a governor annually, triennially or septennially as you will.

    Let the Governor, Council, and House be each a distinct and independent Branch of the Legislature, and have a Negative on all Laws.

    Let the Lt. Governor, Secretary, Treasurer, Commissary Attorney General and Solicitor General, be chosen annually, by joint Ballot of both Houses.

    Let the Governor with Lower Councilors be a Quorum.

    Let all officers and magistrates civil and military be nominated and appointed by the Governor by and with the Advice and Consent of his Council.

    Let no officer be appointed but at a General Council, and let Notice be given to all the Councilors, Seven days at least before a General Council.

    Let the Judges at least of the Supreme Court, be incapacitated by Law from holding any share of the Legislative or Executive Power, Let their Commissions be during good Behavior, and their salaries after [same] and established by law.

    Let the Gov[erno]r have the Command of the army, the Militia, &tc.

    Let the Colony have a Seal and offer it to all Commissioners.

    In this way a single [constitution] is Sufficient without the least Convulsion or Animosity to a total Revolution in the Government of a Colony.

    If it is thought more beneficial, a Law made by this new Legislature passing to the People at Large the Privilege of choosing their Governor and Councilors annually…

    In adopting a Plan, in some currents similar to this[,] human Nature would appear in its morning glory, asserting its own dignity, pulling down Tyrannies at a single exertion and creating such new [arrangements], as it thinks well calculated to promote its happiness.

    As you were the last evening polite enough to ask me for this model, if such a trifle will be of any service to you, or any gratification of curiosity, here you have it….
    @Quark Did you catch that? A trifle. I think I will pen this over my evening tea and hope it helps. The planet will never see men like THAT again.
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  9. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadianeye View Post
    John Adams, a man of particularly strong moral convictions, foresightedness and intelligence.


    John Adams Proposes a Plan for a New State Government with Three Branches

    byJustin McKinney

    Author: John Adams
    Date:1775

    Annotation:

    By the end of 1775, compromise between Britain and its colonies was becoming a less viable option. Richard Henry Lee (1732-1794), a delegate to the Second Continental Congress from Virginia, asked John Adams to help him convince his home state of the need for independence. In response, Adams proposed a plan for a new state government with three branches. This letter offers one example of the way that patriots experimented with new systems of government based on reason and their analysis of human nature as being inevitably inclined toward corruption and the abuse of power unless checked and balanced by competing power. After his return to Congress and with the Massachusetts delegation’s agreement, Lee proposed a congressional resolution for independence.

    Document:

    The Course of Events naturally turns the thoughts of Gentlemen to the Subjects of Legislation and Jurisprudence, and it is a curious Problem what Form of Government is most readily & easily adopted by a Colony upon a Sudden Emergence. Nature and Experience have already pointed out the Solution of this Problem, in the choice of Conventions and Committees of Safety. Nothing is wanting in addition to these to make a compleat Government, but the Appointment of Magistrates for the due Administration of Justice.

    Taking Nature and Experience for my guide I have made the following Sketch, which may be varied in any particular an infinite Number of Ways, So as to accommodate it to the different genius, Temper, Principles and even Prejudices of different People.

    A Legislative, an Executive and a judicial Power, comprehend the whole of what is meant and understood by Government. It is by balancing each of these Powers against the other two, that the Effort in human Nature toward Tyranny can alone be checked and restrained and any degree of Freedom preserved in the Constitution.

    Let a full and free Representation of the People be chosen for an House of Commons.

    Let the House choose by Ballot twelve, Sixteen, Twenty four or Twenty eight Persons, either Members of the House, or from the People at Large as the Electors please, for a Council.

    Let the House and Council by joint Ballot choose a governor annually, triennially or septennially as you will.

    Let the Governor, Council, and House be each a distinct and independent Branch of the Legislature, and have a Negative on all Laws.

    Let the Lt. Governor, Secretary, Treasurer, Commissary Attorney General and Solicitor General, be chosen annually, by joint Ballot of both Houses.

    Let the Governor with Lower Councilors be a Quorum.

    Let all officers and magistrates civil and military be nominated and appointed by the Governor by and with the Advice and Consent of his Council.

    Let no officer be appointed but at a General Council, and let Notice be given to all the Councilors, Seven days at least before a General Council.

    Let the Judges at least of the Supreme Court, be incapacitated by Law from holding any share of the Legislative or Executive Power, Let their Commissions be during good Behavior, and their salaries after [same] and established by law.

    Let the Gov[erno]r have the Command of the army, the Militia, &tc.

    Let the Colony have a Seal and offer it to all Commissioners.

    In this way a single [constitution] is Sufficient without the least Convulsion or Animosity to a total Revolution in the Government of a Colony.

    If it is thought more beneficial, a Law made by this new Legislature passing to the People at Large the Privilege of choosing their Governor and Councilors annually…

    In adopting a Plan, in some currents similar to this[,] human Nature would appear in its morning glory, asserting its own dignity, pulling down Tyrannies at a single exertion and creating such new [arrangements], as it thinks well calculated to promote its happiness.

    As you were the last evening polite enough to ask me for this model, if such a trifle will be of any service to you, or any gratification of curiosity, here you have it….
    @Quark Did you catch that? A trifle. I think I will pen this over my evening tea and hope it helps. The planet will never see men like THAT again.
    True. Thanks.

  10. #358
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    An elected legislative branch is the downfall of any system.

    Without it:
    No new laws.
    No ability to hand out goodies for votes.
    No ability to hand out government largesse to the monied interests.
    No federalization of anything.
    No favors for anyone.
    No ability to steer public behavior.
    No ability to infringe on the rights of the minority to satisfy the majority.
    If an asset that the government can get for nothing capital is essential to producing assets that command prices consumption goods then you would be wise to search for a sleight-of-hand operation.

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  12. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by squidward View Post
    An elected legislative branch is the downfall of any system.

    Without it:
    No new laws.
    No ability to hand out goodies for votes.
    No ability to hand out government largesse to the monied interests.
    No federalization of anything.
    No favors for anyone.
    No ability to steer public behavior.
    No ability to infringe on the rights of the minority to satisfy the majority.
    We saw that today when 15 Republican Senators negotiated our 2nd Amendment rights away. You are right the elected legislative branch is the weak link. Had we stayed with the Great Compromise with the House for the People and the Senate for the States we would have had vertical and horizontal balance. With passage of the 17th Amendment we gave up horizontal balance. I wish I had an answer of how to deal with people who are willing screw their own freedom for so-called free goodies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    We saw that today when 15 Republican Senators negotiated our 2nd Amendment rights away. You are right the elected legislative branch is the weak link. Had we stayed with the Great Compromise with the House for the People and the Senate for the States we would have had vertical and horizontal balance. With passage of the 17th Amendment we gave up horizontal balance. I wish I had an answer of how to deal with people who are willing screw their own freedom for so-called free goodies.
    they die off first when it all collapses. nobody to feed or care for them
    If an asset that the government can get for nothing capital is essential to producing assets that command prices consumption goods then you would be wise to search for a sleight-of-hand operation.

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