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Thread: Jesus Christ- did he really exist and if so, what was he like?

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    Jesus Christ- did he really exist and if so, what was he like?

    This conversation came out of a thread that really had little to do with him, so I thought I'd make one that did...

    Quote Originally Posted by East of the Beast View Post
    Sagan did not understand the awe of the universe that Christians have because it is through faith that we know it. The Bible defines faith.......Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen....Hebrews 11:1
    My sister's ex husband, who was muslim all of his life as far as I know, said that when asked if he was a christian, he had at least once said yes- I imagine he was going with the following definition of christianity: "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ":

    Source: Christian Definition Meaning - Merriam-Webster


    Even the existence of Jesus Christ has been disputed (my knowledge of this dispute comes from the film Zeitgeist, though even there, the film acknowledges that Jesus may have in fact existed, just not in the way that is frequently depicted. Assuming that he was a real person, I'd like to think that he was the type of person pictured in books such as Holy Blood, Holy Grail (one of the non fiction books which Dan Brown based his fictional story "The Da Vinci Code"), written by 3 authors, including Michael Baigent. For those not familiar with the book, Wikipedia has a link to it here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ho...the_Holy_Grail


    For anyone who has read or seen The Da Vinci Code, they will be familiar with the main tenet of the book:
    "In The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, the authors put forward a hypothesis that the historical Jesus married Mary Magdalene, had one or more children, and that those children or their descendants emigrated to what is now southern France. Once there, they intermarried with the noble families that would eventually become the Merovingian dynasty, whose special claim to the throne of France is championed today by a secret society called the Priory of Sion. They concluded that the legendary Holy Grail is simultaneously the womb of Mary Magdalene and the sacred royal bloodline she gave birth to.[4]"

    I have yet to read the sequel, The Messianic Legacy, perhaps one day.

    I did read another book by Michael Baigent titled "The Jesus Papers", published over 20 years later, that I also found to be quite interesting. Here's wikipedia's synopsis of the content of the book:
    **
    In The Jesus Papers, author Michael Baigent claims that after having been taken down alive from the Cross, Jesus was removed from the tomb at night by Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, then smuggled away to Egypt along with his wife, Mary Magdalene. They settled in Cairo, in or near the Temple of Onias, but due to unrest in the area moved to Narbonne in the south of France in AD 38. Other Jewish families had settled in Narbonne claiming descent from King David.
    Michael Baigent claims the source of Bérenger Saunière's mysterious wealth was derived from his discovery of hidden documents that proved this was all historically factual. Baigent argues that Station XIV of the Cross in the church of Rennes-le-Château, showing a full moon, indicates that the Sabbath/Passover had begun, and shows Joseph of Arimathea carrying the live body of Jesus out of the tomb.
    Michael Baigent claims to have seen two papyrus documents - the "Jesus papers" - written in Aramaic, discovered in the Old City of Jerusalem during the 1960s. Baigent claimed these documents dated to AD 45 and were letters to the Sanhedrin from bani meshiha ("the Messiah of the Children of Israel"), defending himself against the allegation that he claimed to be the Son of God.
    Baigent claims these two papyrus documents were authenticated by the Israeli archaeologists Yigael Yadin and Nahman Avigad. Baigent claims that Pope John XXIII asked Baigent's friend to destroy these two papyrus documents, but he refused and said he would release them after 25 years. However, the documents have not been released because of the rift this information would create between Israel and the Vatican, also creating a revival of Antisemitism.[3]
    **

    Source:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Papers
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it."

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    We will never know.

    Hell, we can't even get the truth about the CCP virus, what makes anyone think we will ever get truth about something that happened 2,000 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teeceetx View Post
    We will never know.

    Hell, we can't even get the truth about the CCP virus, what makes anyone think we will ever get truth about something that happened 2,000 years ago?
    You may well be right. That doesn't mean we can't spend time theorizing though :-p.
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it."

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    References made by first- and second-century historians to Jesus and the early Christians prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus.

    “That a few simple men [the Gospel writers] should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”
    Will Durant


    "No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus.”​
    Albert Einstein

    Here are a few non Christians that can be referenced, historians who had no doubts as to the existence of Jesus ..

    TACITUS
    (c.56-120 C.E., or Common Era)

    Considered to be one of the greatest of the ancient Roman historians.

    SUETONIUS
    (c.69–a.122 C.E.)
    This Roman historian recorded events during the reigns of the first 11 Roman emperors.

    Although wrongly accusing Jesus of creating disturbances, Suetonius did not doubt his existence.

    PLINY THE YOUNGER
    (c.61-113 C.E.)

    He tried to force Christians to recant, deny the Christ, executing any who refused to do so.

    He failed!

    FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
    (c.37-100 C.E.)

    There are more but these can be a starting point for those that really want to study the history of Christianity.

    As an aside, how many true photographs are there of George Washington, undoubtedly one of America's greatest leaders and historical figures?

    Do we doubt his existence?
    Why not?

    In contrast, we have a man who has influenced, and left his mark on all corners of the earth .. even thousands of years later!

    Yes, I believe.
    Last edited by mrclose; 11-27-2021 at 05:08 PM.
    Think of how stupid the average person is ... then realize the bottom half is stupider.

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    Consensus of historians is that Jesus was a real person.

    Muslims believe Jesus was a real person but not divine and did not die on the cross and was obviously not resurrected. Muslims reject the New Testament entirely and believe all of Jesus teachings were deliberately lost and replaced by people who wanted power (the writers of the New Testament).
    Because Jesus teachings were lost, god sent the next and last prophet muhammad.

    Jesus surviving crucifiction is extremely unlikely. The Romans who crucified him were experts at it and from experience knew a dead man when they saw one. Plus if a Roman guard lets a crucified man live then the Roman is killed, thats why the Roman soldier stuck a spear in Jesus side and pierced his heart, the Romans made sure he was dead.

    And to get a Jesus surviving crucifiction and not being resurrected, you have to ignore not just the New Testament but a host of other documents (letters, sermons, quotes, etc) from the early church. These have to be ignored and replaced with a handful of much later documents which claim Jesus survived.

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    We do know as it is written on our hearts that God is our creator.

    Romans 2:12-18

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

    18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
    Bring out your dead- The monster is amongst us waiting to be revealed - he bears the number of a man, 666. His Title is Anti-Christ


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    Muslims reject the New Testament entirely and believe all of Jesus teachings were deliberately lost and replaced by people who wanted power (the writers of the New Testament).

    If these Muslims had ever read any of the new testaments .. they'd have to ask themselves: Why in hell would all of these so called "power seekers" write these 'testaments', making themselves looking anything but powerful?

    They actually look kind of weak in a lot of these "self written" forgeries!

    Not at all like "their messiah" .. muhammad!
    Think of how stupid the average person is ... then realize the bottom half is stupider.

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    its BC and AD not CE...get it right
    Bring out your dead- The monster is amongst us waiting to be revealed - he bears the number of a man, 666. His Title is Anti-Christ


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    Quote Originally Posted by mrclose View Post
    References made by first- and second-century historians to Jesus and the early Christians prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus.

    “That a few simple men [the Gospel writers] should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”
    Will Durant


    "No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus.”​
    Albert Einstein

    Here are a few non Christians that can be referenced, historians who had no doubts as to the existence of Jesus ..

    TACITUS
    (c.56-120 C.E., or Common Era)

    Considered to be one of the greatest of the ancient Roman historians.

    SUETONIUS
    (c.69–a.122 C.E.)
    This Roman historian recorded events during the reigns of the first 11 Roman emperors.

    Although wrongly accusing Jesus of creating disturbances, Suetonius did not doubt his existence.

    PLINY THE YOUNGER
    (c.61-113 C.E.)

    He tried to force Christians to recant, deny the Christ, executing any who refused to do so.

    He failed!

    FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
    (c.37-100 C.E.)

    There are more but these can be a starting point for those that really want to study the history of Christianity.

    As an aside, how many true photographs are there of George Washington, undoubtedly one of America's greatest leaders and historical figures?

    Do we doubt his existence?
    Why not?

    In contrast, we have a man who has influenced, and left his mark on all corners of the earth .. even thousands of years later!

    Yes, I believe.
    Think of how stupid the average person is ... then realize the bottom half is stupider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrclose View Post
    References made by first- and second-century historians to Jesus and the early Christians prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus.

    “That a few simple men [the Gospel writers] should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”
    Will Durant


    "No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus.”​
    Albert Einstein

    Here are a few non Christians that can be referenced, historians who had no doubts as to the existence of Jesus ..

    TACITUS
    (c.56-120 C.E., or Common Era)

    Considered to be one of the greatest of the ancient Roman historians.

    SUETONIUS
    (c.69–a.122 C.E.)
    This Roman historian recorded events during the reigns of the first 11 Roman emperors.

    Although wrongly accusing Jesus of creating disturbances, Suetonius did not doubt his existence.

    PLINY THE YOUNGER
    (c.61-113 C.E.)

    He tried to force Christians to recant, deny the Christ, executing any who refused to do so.

    He failed!

    FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS
    (c.37-100 C.E.)

    There are more but these can be a starting point for those that really want to study the history of Christianity.

    As an aside, how many true photographs are there of George Washington, undoubtedly one of America's greatest leaders and historical figures?

    Do we doubt his existence?
    Why not?

    In contrast, we have a man who has influenced, and left his mark on all corners of the earth .. even thousands of years later!

    Yes, I believe.


    I base my own doubts from a documentary called Zeitgeist. Quoting the relevant part of it:
    **
    The Bible is nothing more than an astro-theological literary fold hybrid, just like nearly all religious myths before it. [S170] [S171] [S172] [S173] [S174]In fact, the aspect of transference, of one character’s attributes to a new character, can be found within the book itself. In the Old Testament there’s the story of Joseph. Joseph was a prototype for Jesus. Joseph was born of a miracle birth, [S175] Jesus was born of a miracle birth. [S176] Joseph was of 12 brothers, [S177] Jesus had 12 disciples. [S178] Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, [S179]Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver. [S180] Brother “Judah” suggests the sale of Joseph, [S181] disciple “Judas” suggests the sale of Jesus. [S182] Joseph began his work at the age of 30, [S183]Jesus began his work at the age of 30. [S184] The parallels go on and on.


    Furthermore, is there any non-Biblical historical evidence of any person, living with the name Jesus, the Son of Mary, who traveled about with 12 followers, healing people and the like? There are numerous historians who lived in and around the Mediterranean either during or soon after the assumed life of Jesus.[S185] How many of these historians document this figure? Not one. [S186] However, to be fair, that doesn’t mean defenders of the Historical Jesus haven’t claimed the contrary. Four historians are typically referenced to justify Jesus’s existence. Pliny the younger, Suetonius, Tacitus [are] the first three. [M] [S187] Each one of their entries consists of only a few sentences at best and only refer to the Christus or the Christ, which in fact is not name but a title. It means the “Anointed one” [S188] The fourth source is Josephus and this source has been proven to be a forgery for hundreds of years.[S189] Sadly, it is still cited as truth.


    You would think that a guy who rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven for all eyes to see and performed the wealth of miracles acclaimed to him would have made it into the historical record. It didn’t because once the evidence is weighed, there are very high odds that the figure known as Jesus, did not even exist.[S190] [S191] [S192] [S193] The reality is, Jesus was the Solar Deity of the Gnostic Christian sect, [S194] [S195] [S196] and like all other Pagan gods, he was a mythical figure. It was the political establishment that sought to historize the Jesus figure for social control. By 325 a.d. in Rome, emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicea. [S197] It was during this meeting that the politically motivated Christian Doctrines were established and thus began a long history of Christian bloodshed and spiritual fraud. And for the next 1600 years, the Vatican maintained a political stranglehold on all of Europe, leading to such joyous periods as the Dark Ages, along with enlightening events such as the Crusades, and the Inquisition.

    **
    Source:
    Zeitgeist: The Movie Movie Script


    I think that the creator of the Zeitgeist documentary has too negative a view of christianity, but what he said there definitely made an impact on me.
    Last edited by phoenyx; 12-12-2021 at 01:54 PM.
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it."

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