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Thread: Some things you need to know about the Ahmaud Arbery case

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    Some things you need to know about the Ahmaud Arbery case

    The three people who chased Ahmaud Arbery have now been found guilty of murder.

    It seems even many conservatives in these forums are now willing to write these people off and recognize he was murdered.
    (Under Georgia law, being found guilty of murder carries an automatic life sentence, with possibility of parole only after 25 years. Judges are not given any discretion over this)

    But before you do that, you may want to look at some facts:

    1. Arbery was supposedly jogging 2 miles away from where he lived.

    2. Arbery had just been seen illicitly entering a house under construction.
    The security system recorded him and the owner called the police). While this isn't really in itself hugely illegal, it is still a relevant fact.

    3. At a certain point in the video, Arbery drops what to all appearances was a hammer on the ground (the camera pans to the right to show it). He probably took said hammer inside the house he entered, since it's not exactly jogging attire. Rewatch the video, it's clearly a hammer.

    4. In the video, you can clearly see that Arbery was wearing khaki shorts and heavy shoes that look kind of like construction boots (which would not be "sports shoes" like many news sources reported). At the very least those are high top shoes, which are very fashionable among young African Americans, but would typically not be the easiest or most comfortable to jog in. This is another little detail that weakens the official jogging story and should not be omitted.

    See picture:
    https://imgur.com/pOlcCRA

    close up of shoe here:
    https://imgur.com/kMFd8cr



    All these facts indicate that the official story that he was "just jogging" is at the very least clearly unlikely. Yet, the story keeps being repeated as if it was proven fact, and keeps being overly dramatized for a political agenda.

    Additionally:

    5. Arbery had prior convictions of illegally carrying firearms and theft. No, I'm not saying that ex-felons can be freely murdered (sigh), I'm pointing out that omitting this fact means GIVING A FALSE IMPRESSION on his character and habits, and this is a POLITICALLY MOTIVATED DISTORTION OF THE SITUATION. When I first read the news I got the idea that he was a college kid out for a jog and senselessly killed by white rednecks just because racism. This is exactly the impression the news wants to give. And it's FALSE.

    6. The DA that decided not to arrest the McMichaels for the shooting clearly explained that they hadn't violated any law in this document:

    https://imgur.com/5ih48mI

    I'll summarize:

    1. The McMichaels could effect a citizen arrest, since there was SOLID SUSPICION on Arbery (he had just been seen entering a house he had no business being in), and in Georgia solid suspicion is enough. The law is clear.

    2. They could carry their weapons with them, since they had all the relative permits.

    3. And when Arbery decided to run against the (stationary) Travis McMichael, instead of avoiding him, and even TRIED TO GRAB HIS SHOTGUN, McMichael at that point had the right to use lethal force to defend himself. That's because if someone tries to grab your gun, you're allowed to assume they're going to use it against you with lethal intent, so you can use lethal force to stop them. That's not my opinion, it's what the law says.

    The truth that many do not want to admit is that if Arbery hadn't done the WORST thing you can do when you see an armed man (run straight to him and assault him barehanded), none of this mess would've happened.

    I've seen lots of people in other forums justify his assault by claiming that "he had a right to defend himself". This is a retarded statement. ARBERY DIDN'T NEED TO DEFEND HIMSELF. There was no actual fight, before HE provoked one.

    And saying that even if Arbery hadn't assaulted McMichael, he would've shot him anyway because he's a white racist, so Arbery "had" to attack preemptively to save his own life, is both INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST and LEGALLY RIDICULOUS. Arbery's attack was NOT self defense in any sense of the term, because he had lots of ways to avoid danger. Instead, he chose to provoke it himself.

    He could have stopped and asked what the hell they wanted.

    He could've run any other way, left or right, away from the armed guys.

    He could've stopped and screamed for help.

    He could've done lots of things that wouldn't have had his death as a result.

    It's mind-boggling that he chose the worst possible course of action. I don't know what he expected to gain from running against an armed man barehanded, punching him and going for his shotgun, but it was the stupidest possible decision and it had the obvious outcome.
    Last edited by kazenatsu; 11-25-2021 at 04:52 AM.

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    The good old boys had other options too.

    I'm sure there will be an appeal.

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    It's sad to say, but as I've been investigating this it is surprising how much of this story hinges on little details that I cannot really confirm through news sources.

    For example, I am looking right now at claim that one of the men, William Bryan, said that Travis McMichael said the words "fucking nigger" as Arbery lay dying.
    Is that really true? Was that actually presented in the court to the jury? Apparently William Bryan did not give this information until about a week after Travis McMichael had already been arrested. Did maybe the prosecutor try to trick him and offer him some sort of plea bargain if he could give something that could be used to convict Travis McMichael, giving him some incentive to lie? That just doesn't seem realistic that he would have said that in that situation, knowing all too well that he would most certainly be accused of racism after the unplanned killing of a black man, but it would certainly have heavily biased the jury.

    I'm thinking some of the officials may have lied and exaggerated to create enough evidence to proceed with the murder trial and allow it to be tried in front of a jury, since there did not seem to be enough adequate evidence.
    It is not an uncommon prosecutorial tactic to use their position to use fear to exert pressure on witnesses to lie, if they really want to win a case.

    This would have been a great lie. From the standpoint of logic, it should not really matter whether the defendant used a racial slur after the death of the victim, but in reality it would very much hugely matter in front of a jury. So even if it was later determined it had been a lie, the amount of punishment would probably not be very much, because had the judge and jury been acting entirely logically it should not have really mattered.

    The prosecutor might have even suggested something like this, like saying "Did he say anything that might give any indication of racial bias?". The prosecutor could have suggested the type of lie without explicitly saying it.

    I know this is totally super speculative, but it is the type of thing that totally could have happened and would fit the facts well.
    Last edited by kazenatsu; 11-25-2021 at 05:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kazenatsu View Post
    The three people who chased Ahmaud Arbery have now been found guilty of murder.

    It seems even many conservatives in these forums are now willing to write these people off and recognize he was murdered.
    (Under Georgia law, being found guilty of murder carries an automatic life sentence, with possibility of parole only after 25 years. Judges are not given any discretion over this)

    But before you do that, you may want to look at some facts:

    1. Arbery was supposedly jogging 2 miles away from where he lived.

    2. Arbery had just been seen illicitly entering a house under construction.
    The security system recorded him and the owner called the police). While this isn't really in itself hugely illegal, it is still a relevant fact.

    3. At a certain point in the video, Arbery drops what to all appearances was a hammer on the ground (the camera pans to the right to show it). He probably took said hammer inside the house he entered, since it's not exactly jogging attire. Rewatch the video, it's clearly a hammer.

    4. In the video, you can clearly see that Arbery was wearing khaki shorts and heavy shoes that look kind of like construction boots (which would not be "sports shoes" like many news sources reported). At the very least those are high top shoes, which are very fashionable among young African Americans, but would typically not be the easiest or most comfortable to jog in. This is another little detail that weakens the official jogging story and should not be omitted.

    See picture:
    https://imgur.com/pOlcCRA

    close up of shoe here:
    https://imgur.com/kMFd8cr



    All these facts indicate that the official story that he was "just jogging" is at the very least clearly unlikely. Yet, the story keeps being repeated as if it was proven fact, and keeps being overly dramatized for a political agenda.

    Additionally:

    5. Arbery had prior convictions of illegally carrying firearms and theft. No, I'm not saying that ex-felons can be freely murdered (sigh), I'm pointing out that omitting this fact means GIVING A FALSE IMPRESSION on his character and habits, and this is a POLITICALLY MOTIVATED DISTORTION OF THE SITUATION. When I first read the news I got the idea that he was a college kid out for a jog and senselessly killed by white rednecks just because racism. This is exactly the impression the news wants to give. And it's FALSE.

    6. The DA that decided not to arrest the McMichaels for the shooting clearly explained that they hadn't violated any law in this document:

    https://imgur.com/5ih48mI

    I'll summarize:

    1. The McMichaels could effect a citizen arrest, since there was SOLID SUSPICION on Arbery (he had just been seen entering a house he had no business being in), and in Georgia solid suspicion is enough. The law is clear.

    2. They could carry their weapons with them, since they had all the relative permits.

    3. And when Arbery decided to run against the (stationary) Travis McMichael, instead of avoiding him, and even TRIED TO GRAB HIS SHOTGUN, McMichael at that point had the right to use lethal force to defend himself. That's because if someone tries to grab your gun, you're allowed to assume they're going to use it against you with lethal intent, so you can use lethal force to stop them. That's not my opinion, it's what the law says.

    The truth that many do not want to admit is that if Arbery hadn't done the WORST thing you can do when you see an armed man (run straight to him and assault him barehanded), none of this mess would've happened.

    I've seen lots of people in other forums justify his assault by claiming that "he had a right to defend himself". This is a retarded statement. ARBERY DIDN'T NEED TO DEFEND HIMSELF. There was no actual fight, before HE provoked one.

    And saying that even if Arbery hadn't assaulted McMichael, he would've shot him anyway because he's a white racist, so Arbery "had" to attack preemptively to save his own life, is both INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST and LEGALLY RIDICULOUS. Arbery's attack was NOT self defense in any sense of the term, because he had lots of ways to avoid danger. Instead, he chose to provoke it himself.

    He could have stopped and asked what the hell they wanted.

    He could've run any other way, left or right, away from the armed guys.

    He could've stopped and screamed for help.

    He could've done lots of things that wouldn't have had his death as a result.

    It's mind-boggling that he chose the worst possible course of action. I don't know what he expected to gain from running against an armed man barehanded, punching him and going for his shotgun, but it was the stupidest possible decision and it had the obvious outcome.
    I get a chuckle out of number 1 as two miles is nothing for a jogger. My typical jog is a 4 mile loop. I have no less than 4 different routes as jogging around my block would be very boring.

    I believe number 2 has the most relevance. However the officer who testified that he would trespass him probably sunk that portion. Trespass is just getting his name and informing him to stay off the property. More or less the same most people would do if someone was walking through your yard.

    Number 3 is interesting as I didn’t see him drop a hammer. Will have to go watch it again.

    Number 4 is irrelevant in my mind. I’ve seen people wear some crazy stuff while jogging. Heck jogged in Arizona in the summer and it was 105+ degrees when we encountered a young man wearing a sweatshirt with a hood over his head and sweatpants jogging like we were. Was an odd sight as we were all in tank tops and shorts. To each their own as to what they jog in.

    My opinion is they were guilty. It’s unfortunate they all were convicted of murder but that’s the law in that state. I tend to think that piece was over done, but respect it nonetheless. I think they actually did create their situation and it went bad for them. In this instance they would have been better to just follow him until the police could get there, or wait for them to do their jobs. While I don’t agree with Arbery entering someone’s construction area and possibly stealing stuff…. I wouldn’t chase him down with guns for it either.

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    I figured from the beginning they would be found guilty of something. Chasing after a runner with your car/truck? This was not going to end well for everyone involved.

    But the severity of the charges surprises me. When I listened last night, even the guy taking the video was charged with "multiple counts" of felony murder. Just how many times did Mr Arbery die? Geez, talk about piling on! Now the Feds want to pile on the civil rights charges? Everyone here knows how I feel about weaponized government and double jeapardy. Our government has gone bonkers in that respect.

    I figure this will be overturned on appeal. Probably near the end of October next year. There will be a week or two of burning, looting, and murder just before the midterm elections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsqtr View Post
    The good old boys had other options too.
    "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe

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    Quote Originally Posted by kazenatsu View Post
    The three people who chased Ahmaud Arbery have now been found guilty of murder.

    It seems even many conservatives in these forums are now willing to write these people off and recognize he was murdered.
    (Under Georgia law, being found guilty of murder carries an automatic life sentence, with possibility of parole only after 25 years. Judges are not given any discretion over this)

    But before you do that, you may want to look at some facts:

    1. Arbery was supposedly jogging 2 miles away from where he lived.

    2. Arbery had just been seen illicitly entering a house under construction.
    The security system recorded him and the owner called the police). While this isn't really in itself hugely illegal, it is still a relevant fact.

    3. At a certain point in the video, Arbery drops what to all appearances was a hammer on the ground (the camera pans to the right to show it). He probably took said hammer inside the house he entered, since it's not exactly jogging attire. Rewatch the video, it's clearly a hammer.

    4. In the video, you can clearly see that Arbery was wearing khaki shorts and heavy shoes that look kind of like construction boots (which would not be "sports shoes" like many news sources reported). At the very least those are high top shoes, which are very fashionable among young African Americans, but would typically not be the easiest or most comfortable to jog in. This is another little detail that weakens the official jogging story and should not be omitted.

    See picture:
    https://imgur.com/pOlcCRA

    close up of shoe here:
    https://imgur.com/kMFd8cr



    All these facts indicate that the official story that he was "just jogging" is at the very least clearly unlikely. Yet, the story keeps being repeated as if it was proven fact, and keeps being overly dramatized for a political agenda.

    Additionally:

    5. Arbery had prior convictions of illegally carrying firearms and theft. No, I'm not saying that ex-felons can be freely murdered (sigh), I'm pointing out that omitting this fact means GIVING A FALSE IMPRESSION on his character and habits, and this is a POLITICALLY MOTIVATED DISTORTION OF THE SITUATION. When I first read the news I got the idea that he was a college kid out for a jog and senselessly killed by white rednecks just because racism. This is exactly the impression the news wants to give. And it's FALSE.

    6. The DA that decided not to arrest the McMichaels for the shooting clearly explained that they hadn't violated any law in this document:

    https://imgur.com/5ih48mI

    I'll summarize:

    1. The McMichaels could effect a citizen arrest, since there was SOLID SUSPICION on Arbery (he had just been seen entering a house he had no business being in), and in Georgia solid suspicion is enough. The law is clear.

    2. They could carry their weapons with them, since they had all the relative permits.

    3. And when Arbery decided to run against the (stationary) Travis McMichael, instead of avoiding him, and even TRIED TO GRAB HIS SHOTGUN, McMichael at that point had the right to use lethal force to defend himself. That's because if someone tries to grab your gun, you're allowed to assume they're going to use it against you with lethal intent, so you can use lethal force to stop them. That's not my opinion, it's what the law says.

    The truth that many do not want to admit is that if Arbery hadn't done the WORST thing you can do when you see an armed man (run straight to him and assault him barehanded), none of this mess would've happened.

    I've seen lots of people in other forums justify his assault by claiming that "he had a right to defend himself". This is a retarded statement. ARBERY DIDN'T NEED TO DEFEND HIMSELF. There was no actual fight, before HE provoked one.

    And saying that even if Arbery hadn't assaulted McMichael, he would've shot him anyway because he's a white racist, so Arbery "had" to attack preemptively to save his own life, is both INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST and LEGALLY RIDICULOUS. Arbery's attack was NOT self defense in any sense of the term, because he had lots of ways to avoid danger. Instead, he chose to provoke it himself.

    He could have stopped and asked what the hell they wanted.

    He could've run any other way, left or right, away from the armed guys.

    He could've stopped and screamed for help.

    He could've done lots of things that wouldn't have had his death as a result.

    It's mind-boggling that he chose the worst possible course of action. I don't know what he expected to gain from running against an armed man barehanded, punching him and going for his shotgun, but it was the stupidest possible decision and it had the obvious outcome.
    Yes he was trespassing took a hammer drops it soon afterwards but he wasn't a physical threat to the neighborhood at the time thus the overreaction of men with guns in a truck trying to stop a runner with it was stupid as hell.

    They created the situation for Arbury's death by being overly confrontive and threatening over someone with no weapons and visible physical threat to the area.

    They could have easily followed him at a distance and keep informing the police where he is, which would have taken just a few minutes time.
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    In climate research and modelling, we should recognise that we are dealing with a coupled non-linear chaotic system, and therefore that the long-term prediction of future climate states is not possible.

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    Jogging in heavy shoes isn't going to improve the defense. We ran in flight boots in the Airforce. The intent is exercise... not speed.

    The hammer seems like a relevant thing. The appeal will no doubt highlight it.
    Last edited by Call_me_Ishmael; 11-25-2021 at 09:40 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by kazenatsu View Post
    It's mind-boggling that he chose the worst possible course of action. I don't know what he expected to gain from running against an armed man barehanded, punching him and going for his shotgun, but it was the stupidest possible decision and it had the obvious outcome.
    that is a fact but hindsight is always 20/20. not sure many here know what they will do with a shotgun pointed at them. maybe they walk away .. maybe they don't.
    2 things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity .. and I’m not so sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsqtr View Post
    The good old boys had other options too.

    I'm sure there will be an appeal.
    When one learns of the way prior careful law enforcement refused to prosecute, one knows an appeal is in the wind of probability.
    “Appearances to the mind are of four kinds. Things either are what they appear to be; or they neither are, nor appear to be; or they are, and do not appear to be; or they are not, and yet appear to be. Rightly to aim in all these cases is the wise man's task.” Epictetus

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