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Thread: Space Junk /Debris Field around earth

  1. #21
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    There was a poster at theredleathercouch ( Drinking forum?) I was friendly with . He made World News headline when he went to Israel ( He was Jewish ) And somehow ( with $$) got his hands on a Cold War era RPG . He was in process of shooting it at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem when luckily Israeli Police nabbed him . It was such an embarrassing situation for both Israel and the US that it was a tamped down story and he was quickly deported . ( He actually posted at the forum/board after the dust settled and a fellow Jewish Poster from Flushing Queens and I ribbed him mercilessly about his adventure ...( memory is hazy as I was eventually banned from the forum/ board ( I had recently become a tee totaler but the ban

    Was over politics ) all this was in the 2004-2006 timeframe I think

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator Monroe View Post
    There was a poster at theredleathercouch ( Drinking forum?) I was friendly with . He made World News headline when he went to Israel ( He was Jewish ) And somehow ( with $$) got his hands on a Cold War era RPG . He was in process of shooting it at the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem when luckily Israeli Police nabbed him . It was such an embarrassing situation for both Israel and the US that it was a tamped down story and he was quickly deported . ( He actually posted at the forum/board after the dust settled and a fellow Jewish Poster from Flushing Queens and I ribbed him mercilessly about his adventure ...( memory is hazy as I was eventually banned from the forum/ board ( I had recently become a tee totaler but the ban

    Was over politics ) all this was in the 2004-2006 timeframe I think

    baffled? wtf has this to do with space debris?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankenvoter View Post
    Because humans are like monkeys playing with a vial of nerve gas, we "do" long before we ask about repercussions, too many of us say "oh, but the odds against...." and etc, I think it'll be the best thing that ever happened to the human race having the Kessler event occur sending us back to the 1850's overnight and keeping us there for a few hundred years and can't happen soon enough as far as I'm concerned.
    Actually at least in our space program years worth of planning goes into all of the "What If's".

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    Quote Originally Posted by UKSmartypants View Post
    Well that and pigs might fly......

    correct




    They do. Google 'sattelite near misses'


    Unlikely. Space launches are likely to increase and as more nations get into space, more satellites will be launched.



    Google 'sattelite near misses', it not as rare as you think.


    Well not with Elon Musk launching thousands of Starlink satellites, and OneWeb doing the same

    The problem is that the old dead satellites of the past are out of control, most of them dont have any propulson method or are out of thruster fuel, so all they can do is go round in a slowly decaying orbit. There was concern a few years ago when a old russian sattelite the size of an American two door refrigerator decayed and reentered, because it weighed two tonnes and most stuff over about 50 kg tend to make it to the ground, but lucky it plunged into the sea.

    The convention now is the last bit of thrust fuel in a unwanted orbiting object is used to push it out to whats called the Graveyard orbit, way way out beyond geostationary and at an odd angle useless for most applications . Failing that you can push them into a Disposal orbit, just above the atmosphere, where you can g'tee drag will cause them to renter and burn up. Musk is using an orbit that allows his sattelites to bu pushed easily into disposal orbits

    What you CANT do is go round blowing them up, because that makes the problem worse. and as we also explored in another thread, 'pushing them into the sun' isnt as easy as you think.

    Plus most of this junk is doing 7000+ mph. a 1kg mass travelling at that speed has a kinetic energy of about 5 million Joules, thats like 5 tonnes of TNT
    Near misses are not hits/strikes. There's obviously more than enough room to maneuver left up there and sooner or later all that junk ends up crashing into our atmosphere and burning up because of decaying orbits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    That does seem to be the path let's wait until it happens. No sense in taking action before it happens.
    I've already suggested 2 courses of action.

    Space Command tracks and maps all of those objects in real time 24/7.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    Well see. Maybe we can still get through the junk. This was brought to the forefront because Russia just shot one their of old satellites into bits. As more and more countries start doing that the more junk bits flying around out there. We may produce more junk floating around than any space ship can get through.
    An object in motion tends to stay in motion so whatever trajectories they take once they e explode will likely send that debris either into the atmosphere or out into space.

    Again, my suggestion would be to use space based lasers which would leave very little material left.

    Retrieving the dead satellites at least for now seems to be economically impractical.

    Absent some force acting on them they will all eventually burn up on reentry anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kirk! View Post
    OMG! Do you creatures ever tell the truth? You were banished here for trying to smuggle gold pressed latinum onto Raisa, hidden in your womans clothing! What were you thinking? Everybody knows Ferengi heifers don't wear clothes!
    What does this have to do with Space Debris ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildrose View Post
    Near misses are not hits/strikes. There's obviously more than enough room to maneuver left up there and sooner or later all that junk ends up crashing into our atmosphere and burning up because of decaying orbits.

    well no. These arent aircraft near misses we are talking about. The active satellites still with fuel dont have much room to stray in the first place, and the junk tends to be junk because its run out of thruster fuel. Plus the junk is more often than not in degraded orbits that precess round the earth, so todays near miss can be next orbits direct hit. According to NASA theres about 500 near misses a year, and a direct hit every couple of years. Theres a partial list on wikipedia

    Unintentional low-speed collisions during failed rendezvous and docking operations:
    The 1994 collision between the crewed Soyuz TM-17 spacecraft and the Russian Mir space station.
    The 1997 low-speed collision between the Progress M-34 supply ship and the Russian Mir space station during manual docking manoeuvers.
    The 2005 low-speed collision between the USA DART spacecraft and the USA MUBLCOM communications satellite during orbital rendezvous manoeuvers.

    Unintentional high-speed collisions between active satellites and orbital debris:
    The 1996 collision between the French Cerise military reconnaissance satellite and debris from an Ariane rocket.
    The 2009 collision between the Iridium 33 communications satellite and the derelict Russian Kosmos 2251 spacecraft, which resulted in the destruction of both satellites.
    The 22 January 2013 collision between debris from Fengyun FY-1C satellite and the Russian BLITS nano-satellite.
    The 22 May 2013 collision between two CubeSats, Ecuador's NEE-01 Pegaso and Argentina's CubeBug-1, and the particles of a debris cloud around a Tsyklon-3 upper stage (SCN 15890)[1] left over from the launch of Kosmos 1666.
    The 18 March 2021 collision between Yunhai-1 02 and debris from the Zenit-2 rocket body that launched Tselina-2 in 1996.[2]


    The point here is that junk outnumbers useful stuff by huge amounts/ The mass of useful active satellites is out numbered by junk by about twenty fold

    There are estimated to be over 128 million pieces of debris smaller than 1 cm (0.39 in) as of January 2019. There are approximately 900,000 pieces from 1 to 10 cm. The current count of large debris (defined as 10 cm across or larger[35]) is 34,000.[7] The technical measurement cutoff[clarification needed] is c. 3 mm (0.12 in).[36] Over 98 percent of the 1,900 tons of debris in low Earth orbit as of 2002 was accounted for by about 1,500 objects, each over 100 kg (220 lb).[37] Total mass is mostly constant[citation needed] despite addition of many smaller objects, since they reenter the atmosphere sooner. There were "9,000 pieces of orbiting junk" identified in 2008, with an estimated mass of 5,500 t (12,100,000 lb).[38]



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_collision
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    Take the case of NOAA-16 Weather Sattelite

    NOAA-16 SBUV was launched on September 21, 2000 into a 470- nmi afternoon orbit. The instrument was declared operational on March 20, 2001 and was decomissioned on June 9, 2014 after the spacecraft suffered a serious anomaly on June 6, 2014. NOAA-16's orbit drifted all the way past midnight and into a morning equator crossing time before it was lost. It's data quality had declined since late 2008 due to the orbit precession.

    So this was a seriosu threat, because it was drifting like a ship, and uncontrolled. Fortunately it drifted into whats called a 'morning orbit' which has less traffic. It was then entirely lost from radar and no on has a clue where it is now.

    (The whole incident of the initial 'anomoly' is very suspicious imho, it worked fine then all of a sudden over a period of a few months the instruments and the radio channels the data comes back on just shut down or went noisy......like someone had interfered with the antennas.....just saying.....)
    I declare that the entire content and attachments of any and all of my posts are for the purposes of personal entertainment, and that I do not vouch for the veracity of the content. Neither do I care if you doubt my sources. That's your prerogative, but not my concern.


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    Quote Originally Posted by UKSmartypants View Post
    well no. These arent aircraft near misses we are talking about. The active satellites still with fuel dont have much room to stray in the first place, and the junk tends to be junk because its run out of thruster fuel. Plus the junk is more often than not in degraded orbits that precess round the earth, so todays near miss can be next orbits direct hit. According to NASA theres about 500 near misses a year, and a direct hit every couple of years. Theres a partial list on wikipedia

    Unintentional low-speed collisions during failed rendezvous and docking operations:
    The 1994 collision between the crewed Soyuz TM-17 spacecraft and the Russian Mir space station.
    The 1997 low-speed collision between the Progress M-34 supply ship and the Russian Mir space station during manual docking manoeuvers.
    The 2005 low-speed collision between the USA DART spacecraft and the USA MUBLCOM communications satellite during orbital rendezvous manoeuvers.

    Unintentional high-speed collisions between active satellites and orbital debris:
    The 1996 collision between the French Cerise military reconnaissance satellite and debris from an Ariane rocket.
    The 2009 collision between the Iridium 33 communications satellite and the derelict Russian Kosmos 2251 spacecraft, which resulted in the destruction of both satellites.
    The 22 January 2013 collision between debris from Fengyun FY-1C satellite and the Russian BLITS nano-satellite.
    The 22 May 2013 collision between two CubeSats, Ecuador's NEE-01 Pegaso and Argentina's CubeBug-1, and the particles of a debris cloud around a Tsyklon-3 upper stage (SCN 15890)[1] left over from the launch of Kosmos 1666.
    The 18 March 2021 collision between Yunhai-1 02 and debris from the Zenit-2 rocket body that launched Tselina-2 in 1996.[2]


    The point here is that junk outnumbers useful stuff by huge amounts/ The mass of useful active satellites is out numbered by junk by about twenty fold

    There are estimated to be over 128 million pieces of debris smaller than 1 cm (0.39 in) as of January 2019. There are approximately 900,000 pieces from 1 to 10 cm. The current count of large debris (defined as 10 cm across or larger[35]) is 34,000.[7] The technical measurement cutoff[clarification needed] is c. 3 mm (0.12 in).[36] Over 98 percent of the 1,900 tons of debris in low Earth orbit as of 2002 was accounted for by about 1,500 objects, each over 100 kg (220 lb).[37] Total mass is mostly constant[citation needed] despite addition of many smaller objects, since they reenter the atmosphere sooner. There were "9,000 pieces of orbiting junk" identified in 2008, with an estimated mass of 5,500 t (12,100,000 lb).[38]



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_collision
    I'm not sure why you would add in collisions between vehicles and the satellites or stations they were aiming for. That's simply pilot error.

    What percentage of those collisions were due to pilot and navigational errors?

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