User Tag List

Page 1 of 11 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 110

Thread: The Source of Morality

  1. #1
    Cosmic Watcher Achievements:
    SocialTagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryVeteranOverdrive
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    usfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    14,934
    Thanks
    16,588
    Thanked: 10,994
    Rep Power
    21474860

    The Source of Morality

    There are 2, and only 2, possibilities for morality in the human experience.

    1. It is embedded by the Creator.
    2. It is a human construct for manipulation.

    It is a Real Thing, or it is a Lie.

    Some naturalists argue that morality evolved among humans, and the successful societies were those that held to a higher moral standard.

    But this argument is flawed on many levels.

    1. The SOURCE of the morality is still human beings, using lies & deceit to manipulate human behavior. Natural selection can only 'select' those societies that are successful.
    2. If these man made constructs 'caused' the society to be more successful, then the foundation of the society is manipulation and deceit. Morality is not a Real Thing, but a lie for manipulation.
    3. Power and strength are the main factors in the survival and 'success' of any species, including humans. Theft, killing, fraud, and intimidation are virtues in any animal society. It would be also among humans, if this were a godless universe. Conniving sneaks and bullies would be admired, not despised.
    4. It takes power to enforce the human manipulations and constructs of man made morality. Even now, enforcement of legislated morality (Law), is not voluntary, but compliance is threatened by force.
    5. The 'enlightened' human, that has evolved past needing gods and a felt moral code, would not care about the human constructs of morality, but only use them to manipulate other people.
    6. Morality, in a godless universe, is not and cannot be a 'Real Thing' in the human psyche, but is a deception, to manipulate people.
    7. Why would deceptions and manipulations be selected for survival? Strength of mind and body.. force and persuasion.. are the only positive factors in a godless universe.
    8. A steely minded materialist, not a superstitious blubbering fool, would be more likely to survive and prosper in a godless universe of 'might makes right.'

    We observe a universal, consistent moral base, in the human experience. Every culture, region, and ethnic group has a core moral base, that is assumed to be known by all, in the conscience of each person. It is reinforced by the institutions of society, but did not originate with them. Laws are passed to enforce the morality that already exists. Only sociopaths, who are considered aberrant humans, seem devoid of this inner sense. Many atheists boast of their superior morality. They 'feel' the inner law in their conscience. Why would they boast about being deceived and manipulated? Why would not all 'enlightened' humans not be sociopaths? They have no basis for morality. They know it to be a human construct for manipulation.

    They feel this sense of morality because it is Real. It is NOT a human construct, but has been embedded by the Creator. Morality is compelling evidence that the Creator has embedded this sense in human beings. The very clear observation that we humans both feel and submit to the dictates of conscience is evidence that the Creator IS.

    Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place. ~Frederic Bastiat
    Indoctrination is engineered stupidity.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to usfan For This Useful Post:

    Karl (11-19-2021),Old Ridge Runner (11-19-2021),Swedgin (11-19-2021),WhoKnows (11-24-2021)

  3. #2
    Senior Member Achievements:
    50000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    yeuemmaimai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Somewhere on this here planet
    Posts
    1,837
    Thanks
    269
    Thanked: 1,345
    Rep Power
    1193819
    How we are to behave is clearly defined by the 10 commandments handed down from God to Moses.
    Bring out your dead- The monster is amongst us waiting to be revealed - he bears the number of a man, 666. His Title is Anti-Christ


  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to yeuemmaimai For This Useful Post:

    Karl (11-19-2021),Old Ridge Runner (11-19-2021),S-N-A-F-U (11-27-2021),Swedgin (11-19-2021)

  5. #3
    Cosmic Watcher Achievements:
    SocialTagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryVeteranOverdrive
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    usfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    14,934
    Thanks
    16,588
    Thanked: 10,994
    Rep Power
    21474860
    Quote Originally Posted by yeuemmaimai View Post
    How we are to behave is clearly defined by the 10 commandments handed down from God to Moses.
    ..and as Paul said in Romans, it is embedded in the conscience. This sense of morality is inherent. The Law only affirmed what we already feel, in our innermost being.
    Indoctrination is engineered stupidity.

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to usfan For This Useful Post:

    Karl (11-19-2021),Old Ridge Runner (11-19-2021),OneDumbBlonde (11-19-2021),S-N-A-F-U (11-28-2021),Swedgin (11-19-2021),yeuemmaimai (11-19-2021)

  7. #4
    Banned Achievements:
    50000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    TheOneOnly2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    2,462
    Thanks
    1,266
    Thanked: 1,257
    Rep Power
    0
    At what age does this inner law kick in exactly? If you kept a child in a box and didnt allow it to socialize or know anything about the world would this inner law be present when you let it out of the box at say age 10? And what society are you letting it out into? Does that make a difference? Into Aztec society? Or modern socialist Europe? Same embedded morality will be present?

    Young children dont understand how to share do they? They are egocentric. So this inner law just kicks in without socialization? I dont think it does.

    Anyway - Christianity promotes slave morality right? Thats why Hitler hated it. Its why Ragnar Redbear hated it.

    I would argue that what you are promoting is in fact communism not evidence for the Creator. Freud said that we are all egocentric at our core right? Id-ridden at birth then we have the ego to please the id within what reality allows then super-ego tempers that with cultural influence on the individuals identity. Basically. Or in other words we are all selfish at our core and out for all we can get so far as reality and our culture allows. This is all quite capitalist. And at the other end you had Fromm who argued that our at our core was not only the need to satisfy our desires but a need to avoid isolation and aloneness. So he is saying that humans are not selfish at the core but communal. He was a Marxist..

    "Human nature is neither a biologically fixed and innate sum total of drives nor is it a lifeless shadow of cultural patterns to which it adapts itself smoothly; it is the product of human evolution, but it also has certain inherent mechanisms and laws. There are certain factors in man's nature which are fixed and unchangeable: the necessity to satisfy the physiologically conditioned drives and the necessity to avoid isolation and moral aloneness."

    You Christians are big on community hey.

    And yeah psychopaths dont care about the community - they care about themselves. A psychopath is id-ridden at the core and free of a necessity to avoid aloneness of any kind. So a psychopath would tend to agree with Freud more than Fromm. But whatever political system the psychopath found himself within he would try to use the core moral base of that society - which comes from culture and the socialization of the individuals of that culture - to try to satisfy his id/his pursuit of happiness. Capitalism would be more conducive.

    Anyway - how do you know that psychopaths are not the only enlightened ones? And that the rest of you are retards? Why is it that there is this idea that being a sociopath/psychopath is a bad thing? Wouldnt it be best for a psychopath to run a large company for example? He wouldnt care if he had to fire a heap of people to cut costs. Wouldnt lose sleep over what happens to the people he fires. As long as you pay him enough all he is going to care about it the bottom line right? And doing a good job - so he keeps getting that executive pay. And bonuses. Or a leader of a nation. Wouldnt you need a psychopath? You wouldnt want some bleeding heart right? You would end up with Communism.

    edit - But yeah - put a new born baby in a dark box. Put a hole in it to feed it. Dont let it out until its. 10 years old. Hell - lets keep it in there until its 20. No knowledge of the world and no socialization. You think its going to have a conscience? And what exactly is it going to feel bad about? What will make it feel guilty?
    Last edited by TheOneOnly2; 11-19-2021 at 09:34 AM.

  8. #5
    Alumni Member V.I.P Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsSocialVeteran
    Overall activity: 10.0%

    SharetheHedge's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    12,931
    Thanks
    3,602
    Thanked: 13,057
    Rep Power
    18875385
    Why would God "imbed" a sense of moral standard within created creatures made "in his image and likeness", which SURPASSES, morally, the mercy and compassion that is attributed to HIM, and then expect us to be better than THAT when he knows we CAN'T be?


    14 "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; 11-19-2021 at 09:35 AM.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

    "I do not object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" (Amy Farrah Fowler)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Anon.)

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to SharetheHedge For This Useful Post:

    patrickt (11-24-2021)

  10. #6
    Alumni, Moderator Forum Donor
    V.I.P
    TPF Moderator
    Achievements:
    SocialTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second ClassVeteranYour first Group
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Canadianeye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    20,526
    Thanks
    20,809
    Thanked: 24,582
    Rep Power
    21474866
    It's possible to test it all out, but nobody would ever do it. Just developing the test parameters and all the variables would be incredibly difficult and complex.
    DuckDuckGo is a leftist, Soros sponsored and financial contributor to the collective left. They are the proverbial wolf in sheeps clothing. They present themselves as an option away from the corrupt Google, when in fact...they are only a contrived option that really just gives money, and takes money from our ideological enemies. Qwant appears to be an option. Spread the word.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Canadianeye For This Useful Post:

    TheOneOnly2 (11-19-2021)

  12. #7
    Cosmic Watcher Achievements:
    SocialTagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryVeteranOverdrive
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    usfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    14,934
    Thanks
    16,588
    Thanked: 10,994
    Rep Power
    21474860
    Quote Originally Posted by TheOneOnly2 View Post
    At what age does this inner law kick in exactly? If you kept a child in a box and didnt allow it to socialize or know anything about the world would this inner law be present when you let it out of the box at say age 10? And what society are you letting it out into? Does that make a difference? Into Aztec society? Or modern socialist Europe? Same embedded morality will be present?

    Young children dont understand how to share do they? They are egocentric. So this inner law just kicks in without socialization? I dont think it does.

    Anyway - Christianity promotes slave morality right? Thats why Hitler hated it. Its why Ragnar Redbear hated it.

    I would argue that what you are promoting is in fact communism not evidence for the Creator. Freud said that we are all egocentric at our core right? Id-ridden at birth then we have the ego to please the id within what reality allows then super-ego tempers that with cultural influence on the individuals identity. Basically. Or in other words we are all selfish at our core and out for all we can get so far as reality and our culture allows. This is all quite capitalist. And at the other end you had Fromm who argued that our at our core was not only the need to satisfy our desires but a need to avoid isolation and aloneness. So he is saying that humans are not selfish at the core but communal. He was a Marxist..

    "Human nature is neither a biologically fixed and innate sum total of drives nor is it a lifeless shadow of cultural patterns to which it adapts itself smoothly; it is the product of human evolution, but it also has certain inherent mechanisms and laws. There are certain factors in man's nature which are fixed and unchangeable: the necessity to satisfy the physiologically conditioned drives and the necessity to avoid isolation and moral aloneness."

    You Christians are big on community hey.

    And yeah psychopaths dont care about the community - they care about themselves. A psychopath is id-ridden at the core and free of a necessity to avoid aloneness of any kind. So a psychopath would tend to agree with Freud more than Fromm. But whatever political system the psychopath found himself within he would try to use the core moral base of that society - which comes from culture and the socialization of the individuals of that culture - to try to satisfy his id/his pursuit of happiness. Capitalism would be more conducive.

    Anyway - how do you know that psychopaths are not the only enlightened ones? And that the rest of you are retards? Why is it that there is this idea that being a sociopath/psychopath is a bad thing? Wouldnt it be best for a psychopath to run a large company for example? He wouldnt care if he had to fire a heap of people to cut costs. Wouldnt lose sleep over what happens to the people he fires. As long as you pay him enough all he is going to care about it the bottom line right? And doing a good job - so he keeps getting that executive pay. And bonuses. Or a leader of a nation. Wouldnt you need a psychopath? You wouldnt want some bleeding heart right? You would end up with Communism.

    edit - But yeah - put a new born baby in a dark box. Put a hole in it to feed it. Dont let it out until its. 10 years old. Hell - lets keep it in there until its 20. No knowledge of the world and no socialization. You think its going to have a conscience? And what exactly is it going to feel bad about? What will make it feel guilty?
    What is the SOURCE of morality?

    Is it a Real Thing, embedded by the Creator, or a human construct to manipulate people?

    Why submit to a human manipulation scheme? Why is the conscience ..stung.. by violations?

    Why not attempt your experiment, if humans are insignificant accidents in a godless universe?

    Why do you assume the conscience is contrived? You have never experienced any pangs of conscience?

    Why would sociopathy be 'bad!', in a godless universe? Wouldn't it be a virtue?

    When does the conscience 'activate'? I don't know. Western civilization (and most other cultures) posit a time during puberty when the awareness of innate right and wrong kicks in. 'Age of accountability', some have called it. Why is that universal in the human experience, if it is based on lies and manipulation?
    Indoctrination is engineered stupidity.

  13. #8
    Cosmic Watcher Achievements:
    SocialTagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryVeteranOverdrive
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    usfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    14,934
    Thanks
    16,588
    Thanked: 10,994
    Rep Power
    21474860
    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    Why would God "imbed" a sense of moral standard within created creatures made "in his image and likeness", which SURPASSES, morally, the mercy and compassion that is attributed to HIM, and then expect us to be better than THAT when he knows we CAN'T be?


    14 "What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
    I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.[f]

    16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on Gods mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
    Why an embedded morality? I dunno.. maybe as a reflection of the Divine?

    Your judgement of the Creator is based on prejudice and ignorance. We do not nor cannot exceed or even meet the purity and perfection of the Almighty.
    Indoctrination is engineered stupidity.

  14. #9
    Alumni Member V.I.P Achievements:
    Social50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Overall activity: 45.0%

    Swedgin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    24,218
    Thanks
    18,805
    Thanked: 35,437
    Rep Power
    21474869
    The BEST "moral" in a Godless Universe is "Survival of the Fittest."

    In which case, theft, brutality, lies, murder, slavery, genocide, etc. are all the BETTER "morals."

    Compassion, sharing, honesty, and, even love, are nothing more than 'handicaps.'



    Of course the best way to test your analogy is simply to look at our own nation:

    --Even as we grow "away" from God, and Faith...well, look at the results in our civilization.

    Look at the former Soviet Union, an inherently "godless" culture, where religion was openly attacked by the powers that be.

    Now, this does not mean that ALL those wearing the "cloth of religion" are inherently good.

    History tells us that MANY who do so, are simply hiding their own detestable natures.
    Al Swearengen: What's your partner so mad about all the time?
    Sol Star: He's not mad.
    Al Swearengen: He's got a mean way of being happy.



  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Swedgin For This Useful Post:

    patrickt (11-24-2021),usfan (11-19-2021)

  16. #10
    Cosmic Watcher Achievements:
    SocialTagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryVeteranOverdrive
    Overall activity: 12.0%

    usfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    14,934
    Thanks
    16,588
    Thanked: 10,994
    Rep Power
    21474860
    Quote Originally Posted by Canadianeye View Post
    It's possible to test it all out, but nobody would ever do it. Just developing the test parameters and all the variables would be incredibly difficult and complex.
    It makes a tantalizing sci fi story.. 'Lord of the Flies', and etc. But most (all?) cultures recognize a time in a person's life when they are expected to know right from wrong. The very concept of 'right and wrong' implies a sense of it. Laws are made that have affirmed and enforced that moral code, but the morality came first, before the laws, else they would be fickle, arbitrary decrees that nobody would observe, voluntarily.

    Is your conscience a real thing? ..or a manipulation from human controllers? Why follow it, if it is a manipulative lie?
    Indoctrination is engineered stupidity.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to usfan For This Useful Post:

    Swedgin (11-19-2021)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •