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Thread: The Source of Morality

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    Back to the topic.

    How can there be any 'value judgement', in a godless universe? Why would Hitler be 'bad!', and Mother Theresa be 'good!', when there is nothing inherently good or bad? They are subjective opinions, not absolutes.

    How can you call a line 'crooked!', unless you have a concept of straight?

    I observe even atheists, allegedly disbelieving in embedded morality, stand in moral outrage over a perceived injustice, especially if they were the wronged party. How can this be? A truly amoral universe would have no logical basis for 'righteous indignation', or other expressions of morality. Only might makes right. If you want to kill some undesirables or deplorables, why not? ..unless they kill you, first. So striking first, in surprise, and ruthlessly would be a virtue, in a godless universe. There would be no pesky moral absolutes to restrain you.

    Why would stealing be 'wrong!!' among humans, when it is a virtue in every animal society? Humans do it, anyway, and weave justifications to soothe their guilty consciences. Why bother? Why not just admit that stealing is good and aids your survival? Why call it 'bad!!'?
    Over a long period of time we have created rules to help us live together in groups. It is not that much of a mystery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Over a long period of time we have created rules to help us live together in groups. It is not that much of a mystery.
    Which is what a civilized society IS. It has nothing to do with belief in a God. Some people may look to a God for guidance, but there is nothing in a God that "gives". If you truly believe that, then you agree that you have no free will, and everything is preordained. Which is contrary to the belief that a God gives us free will, to decide on our own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoKnows View Post
    What I find interesting is that if God is the basis of all morality, why is He so amoral? Sounds like if you break it down, He imposes His ideals, but isn't subject to them, which makes it the epitome of not only hypocrisy, but a means to control. So whether morals are a human construct, or something given to us by a higher power, the end game is ultimately the same. Control.

    I do not believe that "God" in any iteration, gives us "morality". "Morality" is a societal construct which not only constantly evolves, but is also society dependent.

    We hear of the "nature vs. nurture" ideologies in Psychology. Religion doesn't factor into that at all, if memory serves. I'm not a Psychologist, and studied this many years ago, but don't remember any "God" coming into the picture.

    The God of the Hebrews (OT) was fearful and vindictive, even pummelling the hell out of his "chosen people" on multiple occasions.

    The Greco-Roman version of the Hebrew God (NT) makes an effort to be more loving and even sacrificial, but ultimately his plan of salvation still falls short of completely alleviating ALL the judgement, and even there ends with a "lake of fire" for, arguably, MOST people who have ever lived.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

    "I do not object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" (Amy Farrah Fowler)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Anon.)

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    Sigh.

    The source of morality is brain wiring. Easy peasy.

    And God created all human beings, even psychopaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsqtr View Post
    Sigh.

    The source of morality is brain wiring. Easy peasy.

    And God created all human beings, even psychopaths.
    My sister and I were created by John and Arbilee. And then, when I married, JoAnne and I created Sean and Adrianne. Around 385,000 babies are born each day. No god is involved.

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    morality is subjective.

    see honor killings or abortion.
    "The nose, knows"

    "Negros were like animals and they turned the streets into jungles”
    joe biden.


    Covid=$
    "The Emperor Wears No Clothes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
    morality is subjective.

    see honor killings or abortion.
    Hm. I wouldn't go "quite" that far. Subjective implies arbitrary, and I don't think morality is arbitrary. ("In most cases").

    I think everyone finds an equilibrium, a morality that makes sense to them, based on their brain construction and experience.

    In medicine (and pop psychology) there is an expression called "neurotypical", and people who are neurotypical and develop socially in a normal way tend to hover/revolve around similar moralities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
    morality is subjective.

    see honor killings or abortion.
    I don't think it is but it is subject to rationalization. "I can explain...." Three union cops approached me one night and one handed me a letter. "Everyone is signing this." I read it and it was asking the chief to change the department rules so officers could get free meals or half-price meals in restaurants. I let the letter fall and said, "Not everyone. I won't sign it. It's wrong."

    The youngest union goon said, "I can explain it." I held up my hand and said, "For twenty years I've listened to murderers and rapists and child abusers and pedophiles explain it. Doesn't make it right."

    I was amazed at how often the "explanations" were based on the Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Over a long period of time we have created rules to help us live together in groups. It is not that much of a mystery.
    Those 'created' rules are just human constructs, to manipulate people. There is no basis for morality, in a godless universe. You choose what you want, i choose mine. Nobody can say. 'My values are 'better' than yours!', because there is no standard of 'better'.

    Amorality is the only logical conclusion of a godless universe.

    It is subjective, arbitrary, and based only on the decrees of whomever has the power to enforce THEIR opinions on everyone else.

    If Hitler says 'Kill the Jews!', then that is the moral standard, since he has the power. If the supreme court says, 'slaves are property!', or 'unborn babies can be killed, legally!', then that is the standard, and nobody has any basis to dispute it. Only if someone can gain power themselves, and issue THEIR arbitrary standards, can the values of a culture change. But they are fickle, arbitrary, and without any absolute basis, in a godless universe. ONLY if there is a Creator/God, Who embedded a Real moral standard in humanity, AND established a conscience as a 'moral compass', can there be any appeal to an inherent, absolute morality.
    "When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." ~Jesus

    No Creator? No America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoKnows View Post
    Which is what a civilized society IS. It has nothing to do with belief in a God. Some people may look to a God for guidance, but there is nothing in a God that "gives". If you truly believe that, then you agree that you have no free will, and everything is preordained. Which is contrary to the belief that a God gives us free will, to decide on our own.
    Time and man made rules cannot make fickle human decrees into absolute morality.

    A godless universe can has no basis for 'good!', or 'bad!' Survival and reproduction are the only overriding factors, in a world ruled by natural selection, but whether a species survives or not doesn't matter. The universe spins on, indifferent to death, life, or moral outrage from deluded animals who pretend their lives matter.
    Last edited by usfan; 11-25-2021 at 08:50 AM.
    "When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." ~Jesus

    No Creator? No America.

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