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Thread: So... you think that the upcoming events in Revelation are not literal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-N-A-F-U View Post
    Many debatable subjects have risen between flawed men, regarding Biblical pronouncements. Personally, I'll stick with the final arbiter, God's written word.

    As for the resurrection, and reuniting of an immaterial soul with the physical body. For this to be possible, of course, humans would have to have an immaterial soul that could separate from the physical body. The Bible does not teach such a thing. That notion was borrowed from Greek philosophy.
    That’s the issue - there is no Biblical arguement that definitively proves or disproves a pre-tribulation rapture. That’s why there is such a debate. That’s why both sides use some of the same Bible passages to “prove” their point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    You may make the mistake of looking for a too literal or visible "mark". The forehead represents the mind and BELIEF of a person. The hand represents what he DOES in connection with the dictates of his mind. Also in Revelation, we are told that the servants of God recieve a "seal" on their FOREHEADS. Is this too a VISIBLE mark?

    Additionally, if this mark is a computer chip or has to do with manipulating DNA, there is obviously no way in which it could have been implemented within less than 2000 years AFTER these things were written. Therefore, all the warnings and URGENT language (soon, shortly, at the door, etc.) to the early believers who read these things was MEANINGLESS if it could not have pertained to them in their lifetimes.
    Some prophecy makes no sense at the time but later becomes clear. Isaiah 53 for example made no sense at all for 700 years until Jesus. Synagogues would typically skip Isaiah 53 because it not only did not make sense but was contradictory to then current thinking. Even today some fundamental Jewish synagogues skip it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    You may make the mistake of looking for a too literal or visible "mark". The forehead represents the mind and BELIEF of a person. The hand represents what he DOES in connection with the dictates of his mind. Also in Revelation, we are told that the servants of God recieve a "seal" on their FOREHEADS. Is this too a VISIBLE mark?

    Additionally, if this mark is a computer chip or has to do with manipulating DNA, there is obviously no way in which it could have been implemented within less than 2000 years AFTER these things were written. Therefore, all the warnings and URGENT language (soon, shortly, at the door, etc.) to the early believers who read these things was MEANINGLESS if it could not have pertained to them in their lifetimes.
    Parts of Revelation were not understood at the time. The idea of a ruler being able to totally control commerce as in Revelation was impossible. That type of control is only now becoming feasible. At the time a king might have that control in his Capitol but the farther from the king the less he can control commerce. In the 1st century the fundamental social unit was the tribe (extended family), it was largely self sufficient, and most commerce was bartering between and within mobile tribes. A king had to have a trusted person in every family to even hope to have compliance, and that was impossible.

    But today it makes sense and we can all see it coming into being right now.
    Last edited by Wilson2; 09-18-2021 at 01:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson2 View Post
    Parts of Revelation were not understood at the time. The idea of a ruler being able to totally control commerce as in Revelation was impossible. That type of control is only now becoming feasible. At the time a king might have that control in his Capitol but the farther from the king the less he can control commerce. In the 1st century the fundamental social unit was the tribe (extended family), it was largely self sufficient, and most commerce was bartering between and within mobile tribes. A king had to have a trusted person in every family to even hope to have compliance, and that was impossible.

    But today it makes sense and we can all see it coming into being right now.

    The term "world" in the NT usually referred to the KNOWN WORLD or, even more specifically, Rome, and the influences of it's empire...

    "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Ro.1:8)

    The Christian faith had NOT been spoken of, for example, in China, or the entire Western Hemisphere at that time, for no one in Paul's "world" even knew they EXISTED. Now apply that also to the book of Revelation. The control that Rome excercized, during the time the NT was being written, and for a long time afterward, was pretty much COMPLETE. That was the "world" of the NT writers. There are far too many HINTS in scripture, that the prophecies contained in the NT had to do with ROME.


    Quite to the contrary of your post, Imperial Rome and later, the RELIGIOUS "Roman Empire" (Roman Catholic Church) had a LOT of control over the commerce and politics of the known world at that time.

    Last edited by SharetheHedge; 09-18-2021 at 01:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    The term "world" in the NT usually referred to the KNOWN WORLD or, even more specifically, Rome, and the influences of it's empire...

    "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Ro.1:8)

    The Christian faith had NOT been spoken of, for example, in China, or the entire Western Hemisphere at that time, for no one in Paul's "world" even knew they EXISTED. Now apply that also to the book of Revelation. The control that Rome excercized, during the time the NT was being written, and for a long time afterward, was pretty much COMPLETE. That was the "world" of the NT writers. There are far too many HINTS in scripture, that the prophecies contained in the NT had to do with ROME.


    Quite to the contrary of your post, Imperial Rome and later, the RELIGIOUS "Roman Empire" (Roman Catholic Church) had a LOT of control over the commerce and politics of the known world at that time.

    The kings (wise men) of the east knew of Christ's birth... before he was born. Dont be so sure of yourself.
    Last edited by Call_me_Ishmael; 09-18-2021 at 02:26 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Call_me_Ishmael View Post
    The kings (wise men) of the east knew of Christ's birth... before he was born. Dont be so sure of yourself.

    So the story goes - at least in Matthew. The "east" probably referred to the region of Iran - pretty sure they were not from Korea?

    Additionally, Luke.2:1 says a decree went out from the Emperor Augustus that the WHOLE WORLD should be taxed - but this obviously refers to the the "world" that was ruled by Rome. It's all RELATIVE.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

    "I do not object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" (Amy Farrah Fowler)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Anon.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    The term "world" in the NT usually referred to the KNOWN WORLD or, even more specifically, Rome, and the influences of it's empire...

    "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Ro.1:8)

    The Christian faith had NOT been spoken of, for example, in China, or the entire Western Hemisphere at that time, for no one in Paul's "world" even knew they EXISTED. Now apply that also to the book of Revelation. The control that Rome excercized, during the time the NT was being written, and for a long time afterward, was pretty much COMPLETE. That was the "world" of the NT writers. There are far too many HINTS in scripture, that the prophecies contained in the NT had to do with ROME.


    Quite to the contrary of your post, Imperial Rome and later, the RELIGIOUS "Roman Empire" (Roman Catholic Church) had a LOT of control over the commerce and politics of the known world at that time.

    Caesar could not control commerce to the level of banning individuals for buying and selling. Outside of Rome, Caesar could only control where his troops were. When a tax collector came to town, people paid the tax. When the local governor came to town, people said hail Caesar and pretended. Otherwise, it was live and let live.

    And Rome was pretty ok with it as long as people paid their taxes and did not start a rebellion.

    Revelation says a person has to have the mark in order to engage in commerce. That was never possible to enforce. It’s still not but we can all see it coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson2 View Post
    That’s the issue - there is no Biblical arguement that definitively proves or disproves a pre-tribulation rapture. That’s why there is such a debate. That’s why both sides use some of the same Bible passages to “prove” their point.
    Many church organizations believe they will be caught-up bodily to be with Christ in heaven, but as stated before, this is flatly put to rest by 1 Cor. 15:50. However, there will always be those that attempt to manipulate and take things out of Scriptural context. But, what can be expected, by this injected confusion, and the leading astray by 'the god of this world, Satan the devil'? (2 Cor. 4:4)

    That's why we have 26,000 christian denominations and sects in the world, separated by church dogmas, doctrines, and mans traditions. Obviously, there is something wrong with this picture, whereas, Jesus founded one faith and one way.

    "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." 1 Cor. 1:10

    Fortunately for some, and unfortunately for others; we are in a spiral leading to the demise of this system of things, which will herald in the New under the direct leadership of Jesus himself.

    And so be it.
    Last edited by S-N-A-F-U; 09-19-2021 at 06:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson2 View Post
    Caesar could not control commerce to the level of banning individuals for buying and selling. Outside of Rome, Caesar could only control where his troops were. When a tax collector came to town, people paid the tax. When the local governor came to town, people said hail Caesar and pretended. Otherwise, it was live and let live.

    And Rome was pretty ok with it as long as people paid their taxes and did not start a rebellion.

    Revelation says a person has to have the mark in order to engage in commerce. That was never possible to enforce. It’s still not but we can all see it coming.

    Here is an excerpt of an article from http://www.historicism.com/misc/666antichrist.htm

    I will not post the entire article here because it is too long and no one will likely read it, but if anyone is interested they can go to that site.

    Here is a section specifically on the Mark of the Beast, and the identification of the Beast based on the early protestant interpretation called "Historicist". Again, I do not say I absolutely believe this interpretation for I am far from convinced that the bible is true or at least, "infallible", but there are a great many events in history which would equate to QUITE a bunch of coincidences, if they are not true. The following contents are just a small amount of the these "coincidences" in comparison to the total historicist view of the entire Book of Revelation...



    Rev. 13:16-17. Here we are told that the beast causes everyone who does not receive a mark on their hand or forehead, and if they do not have one they will be ineligible to buy or sell. The “mark” represents slavery. It is a symbol of the Papal demand for complete and unreserved obedience from all within its domain.

    What does history show? Many Papal decrees, forbidding trade with ‘heretics’ could be quoted. For example, at the Third Lateran Council in 1178 Pope Alexander III issued an order that “no man presume to entertain or cherish them (the Protestants) in his house, or land, or exercise traffic with them.” The same Pope passed a law against the Protestant Waldenses and Albigenses, demanding that “no man should presume to receive or assist them in selling or buying, that, being deprived of humanity, they may be compelled to repent of the error of their way.”

    Pope Martin V in his decree sent out after the Council of Constance, commanded that “they permit not the ‘heretics’ to have homes in their districts, or enter into contracts, or carry on commerce, or enjoy the comforts of humanity with Christians.”

    The poor Protestants were a minority, unable to own their own homes, or even rent somewhere to live, and unable to sell their goods or earn a living. As a result, these Bible-loving members of the true Church starved and perished because they would not bear the “mark of the beast”.

    So far the Historicist view has been consistent with Scripture and history. All that the Bible says in code has matched perfectly with the sequence and events of real history. Revelation is therefore history written in code. The story has unfolded methodically, verse by verse, without sudden glitches of mystery. Futurists, on the other hand, have to make wild jumps from place to place, joining different scriptures together to make their view seem reasonable.

    If Historicists are correct in their view, the number of the beast ought to now unfold in a logical and consistent manner. We will see.

    Rev. 13:18 “Here is wisdom, Let him that has understanding count the number of the beats: for it is the number of a man; and his number is 666”

    What does history show? Going on what we already know about the Papacy, we should logically expect the number of the man to further identify the Papacy. This is exactly what we do find.

    The eastern Roman Empire (the left leg of the statue in Daniel) used Greek as its main language, but for the western Empire (the right leg) of Rome it was Latin. It was a Latin world with a Latin liturgy for the Catholic church, a Latin Bible in the Vulgate Version. Everything was Latinised in the church, so that almost every inhabitant of western Europe used Latin, and so, in the code of Revelation, they received the “mark” of the beast. (Just by way of an interesting sidelight, it could be noted in passing that Pope Vitallian issued a decreed commanding the exclusive use of Latin in all the services of the Catholic church . . . in the year 666 AD)

    The word LATIN in the Latin language is a proper noun, and also the name of the father of the Latin race. Just as we say the Papal Empire, meaning the Empire fathered by the Pope, we can say the Latin Empire, because it was fathered by Latin. Also, when Pope Vitallian issued the decree that Latin was the only language to be used in worship, he earned for himself the name “Latinus”, which means “The Latin man”.

    Latin letters have a numerical value, which, when added together, give us a total. The numerical value of LATIN is 666.

    When Latin is changed into Greek we get the word LATEINOS, which also has a total value of 666
    .

    (L=30, A=1, T=300, E=5, I=10, N=50, O=70, S=200 added together = 666.)



    Last edited by SharetheHedge; 09-19-2021 at 10:13 AM.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

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    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Anon.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    Here is an excerpt of an article from http://www.historicism.com/misc/666antichrist.htm

    I will not post the entire article here because it is too long and no one will likely read it, but if anyone is interested they can go to that site.

    Here is a section specifically on the Mark of the Beast, and the identification of the Beast based on the early protestant interpretation called "Historicist". Again, I do not say I absolutely believe this interpretation for I am far from convinced that the bible is true or at least, "infallible", but there are a great many events in history which would equate to QUITE a bunch of coincidences, if they are not true. The following contents are just a small amount of the these "coincidences" in comparison to the total historicist view of the entire Book of Revelation...



    Rev. 13:16-17. Here we are told that the beast causes everyone who does not receive a mark on their hand or forehead, and if they do not have one they will be ineligible to buy or sell. The “mark” represents slavery. It is a symbol of the Papal demand for complete and unreserved obedience from all within its domain.

    What does history show? Many Papal decrees, forbidding trade with ‘heretics’ could be quoted. For example, at the Third Lateran Council in 1178 Pope Alexander III issued an order that “no man presume to entertain or cherish them (the Protestants) in his house, or land, or exercise traffic with them.” The same Pope passed a law against the Protestant Waldenses and Albigenses, demanding that “no man should presume to receive or assist them in selling or buying, that, being deprived of humanity, they may be compelled to repent of the error of their way.”

    Pope Martin V in his decree sent out after the Council of Constance, commanded that “they permit not the ‘heretics’ to have homes in their districts, or enter into contracts, or carry on commerce, or enjoy the comforts of humanity with Christians.”

    The poor Protestants were a minority, unable to own their own homes, or even rent somewhere to live, and unable to sell their goods or earn a living. As a result, these Bible-loving members of the true Church starved and perished because they would not bear the “mark of the beast”.

    So far the Historicist view has been consistent with Scripture and history. All that the Bible says in code has matched perfectly with the sequence and events of real history. Revelation is therefore history written in code. The story has unfolded methodically, verse by verse, without sudden glitches of mystery. Futurists, on the other hand, have to make wild jumps from place to place, joining different scriptures together to make their view seem reasonable.

    If Historicists are correct in their view, the number of the beast ought to now unfold in a logical and consistent manner. We will see.

    Rev. 13:18 “Here is wisdom, Let him that has understanding count the number of the beats: for it is the number of a man; and his number is 666”

    What does history show? Going on what we already know about the Papacy, we should logically expect the number of the man to further identify the Papacy. This is exactly what we do find.

    The eastern Roman Empire (the left leg of the statue in Daniel) used Greek as its main language, but for the western Empire (the right leg) of Rome it was Latin. It was a Latin world with a Latin liturgy for the Catholic church, a Latin Bible in the Vulgate Version. Everything was Latinised in the church, so that almost every inhabitant of western Europe used Latin, and so, in the code of Revelation, they received the “mark” of the beast. (Just by way of an interesting sidelight, it could be noted in passing that Pope Vitallian issued a decreed commanding the exclusive use of Latin in all the services of the Catholic church . . . in the year 666 AD)

    The word LATIN in the Latin language is a proper noun, and also the name of the father of the Latin race. Just as we say the Papal Empire, meaning the Empire fathered by the Pope, we can say the Latin Empire, because it was fathered by Latin. Also, when Pope Vitallian issued the decree that Latin was the only language to be used in worship, he earned for himself the name “Latinus”, which means “The Latin man”.

    Latin letters have a numerical value, which, when added together, give us a total. The numerical value of LATIN is 666.

    When Latin is changed into Greek we get the word LATEINOS, which also has a total value of 666
    .

    (L=30, A=1, T=300, E=5, I=10, N=50, O=70, S=200 added together = 666.)



    I can understand the Papacy becoming the religious authority of the anti-christ. But I don't see how the historic view is possible.

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