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Thread: So... you think that the upcoming events in Revelation are not literal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    Scenario: What if what appears to be the "Mark" comes out, but the rapture has not occurred yet and you are still here?

    Do you believe it is NOT the mark and do not necessarily try to avoid it, or do you conclude that it IS what it looks like, and that you were wrong about the sequence of events?
    The “Mark” is not just a stamp or symbol, to get the Mark you have to swear allegiance to the world ruler and accept him as god and ruler of the earth, only then can a person participate in his kingdom. If you refuse to swear allegiance you die. There won’t be any doubt as to what is going on.
    Last edited by Wilson2; 09-16-2021 at 11:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson2 View Post
    @S- N-A-F-U

    No -

    From this and many other sources
    https://ourcog.org/church-fathers-on-the-rapture/
    The Greek word episunagoge is mentioned as the eschatological gathering of the
    faithful to Christ by: Dionysius Alexandrinus (d. 264) in Eusebius’ historia
    ecclessiasticae.7.24.5, Eusebius (d. 399), himself, in his demonstratio evangelica.2.3, and
    Cyrillus Alexandrinus (d. 444) in his commentarius in John.3.4.
    20 Metatithemi (to
    translate persons) is used to address rapture by: Clement of Rome (1st cent.), to describe
    Enoch’s rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians.9.3; Irenaeus (d. 202), who says,
    “Enoch was translated, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just and
    that those who were translated into Paradise, as a prelude to immortality will remain there
    until the completion of the age,” in his Against Heresies.5.5.1; Methodius (d. 311) in his
    de resurrectione mortuorum.3.5, and Hippolytus Thebanus (8th cent.) in his
    fragmenta.8c5 (both said that a Christian’s immortality was to begin when their body was
    translated like Enoch’s); and finally, Eusebius spoke of God figuratively translating
    Christians at the end of the age in his preparatio evangelica.7.8

    <>
    There are many references to Christians escaping the Tribulation in the early church writings.


    You have to play word games in order to claim Darby invented the idea, such as claiming the word”rapture” does not appear in the early writings, and that’s true because the church fathers used a different word to mean rapture.
    I do believe that Enoch was raptured as was Elijah. That's basically what happened to them. Will those of us who are alive when Jesus returns be likewise raptured all at once? Maybe. I've read both sides and I still don't know. But I am ready. I really want to be raptured. But I'll probably just die like everyone else ... and if we are raptured from the grave then....... I will be. But by then I believe I will already be with Jesus so........

    The thing is that maybe we should believe what comforts us most on that particular thing because nobody really knows.




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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    Scenario: What if what appears to be the "Mark" comes out, but the rapture has not occurred yet and you are still here?

    Do you believe it is NOT the mark and do not necessarily try to avoid it, or do you conclude that it IS what it looks like, and that you were wrong about the sequence of events?
    The rapture timing is debatable. I know good knowledgeable people on both sides.


    I hope for the pre-trib rapture but won’t be too surprised if it doesn’t happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson2 View Post
    The rapture timing is debatable. I know good knowledgeable people on both sides.


    I hope for the pre-trib rapture but won’t be too surprised if it doesn’t happen.
    This is the truth.
    Scientist, Evangelical Christian - reformed, father, entrepreneur, hunter, outdoorsman, motorcyclist, Constitutional Conservative.

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    <@Wilson2>


    Firstly, one must keep things in Scriptural context explaining the errant belief in an invented
    Rapture.

    When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?

    1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (Evidently some members of the Christian congregation in Thessalonica had died. Paul encouraged the survivors to comfort one another with the resurrection hope. He reminded them that Jesus was resurrected after his death; so, too, at the coming of the Lord, those faithful Christians among them who had died would be raised to be with Christ.)

    Who are the ones that will be ‘caught up in the clouds,’ as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

    Verse 15 explains that they are faithful ones “who are left until the coming of the Lord,” that is, they are still living at the time of Christ’s coming. Will they ever die? According to Romans 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 15:35, 36, 44, they must die before they can gain heavenly life. But there is no need for them to remain in the death state awaiting Christ’s return. They will instantly be “caught up,” “in the twinkling of an eye,” to be with the Lord.—1 Cor. 15:51, 52, RS; also Revelation 14:13.

    Will Christ appear visibly on a cloud and then take away faithful Christians into the heavens while the world looks on?

    Did Jesus say whether the world would see him again with their physical eyes?John 14:19, RS: “Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you [his faithful disciples] will see me; because I live, you will live also.” (Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)

    What is the meaning of the Lord’s ‘descending from heaven’?

    Could the Lord “descend from heaven,” as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:16, without being visible to physical eyes? In the days of ancient Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah said that he was going to “go down to see” what the people were doing. (Gen. 18:21, RS) But when Jehovah made that inspection, no human saw him, although they did see the angelic representatives that he sent. (John 1:18) Similarly, without having to return in the flesh, Jesus could turn his attention to his faithful followers on earth to reward them.

    In what sense, then, will humans “see” the Lord “coming in a cloud”?

    Jesus foretold: “Then they will see the Son of man [Jesus Christ] coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:27, RS) In no way does this statement or similar ones in other texts contradict what Jesus said as recorded at John 14:19. Consider: At Mount Sinai, what occurred when God ‘came to the people in a thick cloud,’ as stated at Exodus 19:9? (RS) God was invisibly present; the people of Israel saw visible evidence of his presence, but none of them actually saw God with their eyes. So, too, when Jesus said that he would come “in a cloud,” he must have meant that he would be invisible to human eyes but that humans would be aware of his presence. They would “see” him with their mental eyes, discerning the fact that he was present.

    Is it possible for Christians to be taken to heaven with their physical bodies?

    1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

    Does the experience of the prophet Elijah contradict this? Not at all. It must be understood in the light of Jesus’ clear statement centuries later: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13, RS) Although Elijah was seen as he “went up by a whirlwind into heaven,” this does not mean that he went into the spirit realm. Why not? Because he is later reported as sending a letter of reproof to the king of Judah. (2 Ki. 2:11, RS; 2 Chron. 21:1, 12-15) Jehovah used his own means (a fiery chariot and a whirlwind) to lift Elijah off the ground into the heaven where the birds fly and to transport him to another place.—Compare Genesis 1:6-8, 20.

    Will faithful Christians perhaps be taken to heaven secretly, simply disappearing from the earth without dying?

    Rom. 6:3-5, RS: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . . For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.” (What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew he had died. He was not restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.)

    1 Cor. 15:35, 36, 44, RS: “Some one will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.” (So death comes before one receives that spiritual body!)

    Will all faithful Christians be taken miraculously from the earth by the Lord before the great tribulation?

    Matt. 24:21, 22: “ There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (This does not say that “the chosen ones” will all have been taken to heaven before the great tribulation,Rather, it holds out the prospect to them, along with associates in the flesh, of surviving that great tribulation on earth.)

    Rev. 7:9, 10, 14, RS: “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!’ . . . ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.’” (To “come out” of something a person must go into it or be in it. So this great multitude must be persons who actually experience the great tribulation and come out of it as survivors.)
    Last edited by S-N-A-F-U; 09-17-2021 at 09:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-N-A-F-U View Post
    <@Wilson2>


    Firstly, one must keep things in Scriptural context explaining the errant belief in an invented
    Rapture.

    When the apostle Paul said that Christians would be “caught up” to be with the Lord, what subject was being discussed?

    1 Thess. 4:13-18, RS: “We would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep [“those who sleep in death,” NE; “those who have died,” TEV, JB], that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (Evidently some members of the Christian congregation in Thessalonica had died. Paul encouraged the survivors to comfort one another with the resurrection hope. He reminded them that Jesus was resurrected after his death; so, too, at the coming of the Lord, those faithful Christians among them who had died would be raised to be with Christ.)

    Who are the ones that will be ‘caught up in the clouds,’ as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

    Verse 15 explains that they are faithful ones “who are left until the coming of the Lord,” that is, they are still living at the time of Christ’s coming. Will they ever die? According to Romans 6:3-5 and 1 Corinthians 15:35, 36, 44, they must die before they can gain heavenly life. But there is no need for them to remain in the death state awaiting Christ’s return. They will instantly be “caught up,” “in the twinkling of an eye,” to be with the Lord.—1 Cor. 15:51, 52, RS; also Revelation 14:13.

    Will Christ appear visibly on a cloud and then take away faithful Christians into the heavens while the world looks on?

    Did Jesus say whether the world would see him again with their physical eyes?John 14:19, RS: “Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you [his faithful disciples] will see me; because I live, you will live also.” (Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)

    What is the meaning of the Lord’s ‘descending from heaven’?

    Could the Lord “descend from heaven,” as stated at 1 Thessalonians 4:16, without being visible to physical eyes? In the days of ancient Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah said that he was going to “go down to see” what the people were doing. (Gen. 18:21, RS) But when Jehovah made that inspection, no human saw him, although they did see the angelic representatives that he sent. (John 1:18) Similarly, without having to return in the flesh, Jesus could turn his attention to his faithful followers on earth to reward them.

    In what sense, then, will humans “see” the Lord “coming in a cloud”?

    Jesus foretold: “Then they will see the Son of man [Jesus Christ] coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:27, RS) In no way does this statement or similar ones in other texts contradict what Jesus said as recorded at John 14:19. Consider: At Mount Sinai, what occurred when God ‘came to the people in a thick cloud,’ as stated at Exodus 19:9? (RS) God was invisibly present; the people of Israel saw visible evidence of his presence, but none of them actually saw God with their eyes. So, too, when Jesus said that he would come “in a cloud,” he must have meant that he would be invisible to human eyes but that humans would be aware of his presence. They would “see” him with their mental eyes, discerning the fact that he was present.

    Is it possible for Christians to be taken to heaven with their physical bodies?

    1 Cor. 15:50, RS: “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”

    Does the experience of the prophet Elijah contradict this? Not at all. It must be understood in the light of Jesus’ clear statement centuries later: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13, RS) Although Elijah was seen as he “went up by a whirlwind into heaven,” this does not mean that he went into the spirit realm. Why not? Because he is later reported as sending a letter of reproof to the king of Judah. (2 Ki. 2:11, RS; 2 Chron. 21:1, 12-15) Jehovah used his own means (a fiery chariot and a whirlwind) to lift Elijah off the ground into the heaven where the birds fly and to transport him to another place.—Compare Genesis 1:6-8, 20.

    Will faithful Christians perhaps be taken to heaven secretly, simply disappearing from the earth without dying?

    Rom. 6:3-5, RS: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? . . . For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.” (What occurred in the case of Jesus set the pattern. His disciples as well as others knew he had died. He was not restored to heavenly life until after his death and resurrection.)

    1 Cor. 15:35, 36, 44, RS: “Some one will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.” (So death comes before one receives that spiritual body!)

    Will all faithful Christians be taken miraculously from the earth by the Lord before the great tribulation?

    Matt. 24:21, 22: “ There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (This does not say that “the chosen ones” will all have been taken to heaven before the great tribulation,Rather, it holds out the prospect to them, along with associates in the flesh, of surviving that great tribulation on earth.)

    Rev. 7:9, 10, 14, RS: “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!’ . . . ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.’” (To “come out” of something a person must go into it or be in it. So this great multitude must be persons who actually experience the great tribulation and come out of it as survivors.)
    I have gone through this before (not on this forum). There is no definitive arguement for or against a pretribulation rapture. If there were, this would not be a debatable subject.

    On your post -

    After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to many people. There is nothing that claims a person cannot come back to earth after resurrection. Elijah could have gone to Heaven, and been sent back to do some errand. At Jesus transfiguration, the glorified Elijah and Moses appeared with Him.

    Christ can appear or not appear as He chooses. If there is a rapture, He can summon people to Him in whatever manner He chooses. The rapture idea is that Jesus calls His people to Him, He does not step on the earth and collect them.

    In the rapture idea, dead people are resurrected in their new bodies not their earthly bodies. Living people are raptured into their resurrection body, they don't go to Heaven in their earthly body. It makes no sense that a person stays in their 3D linear time sin riddled earthly body. The rapture itself (the taking up) can happen in the "twinkling of an eye" but the full process can take longer. Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary immediately after He was resurrected he told her not to touch him, He was clearly in His glorified body but the process may not have been completed.

    The last item is a common arguement - if all Christians are taken before the Tribulation then who are the "chosen ones" (some translations say "the elect")? A lot of people will become Christians during the Tribulation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson2 View Post
    I have gone through this before (not on this forum). There is no definitive arguement for or against a pretribulation rapture. If there were, this would not be a debatable subject.

    On your post -

    After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to many people. There is nothing that claims a person cannot come back to earth after resurrection. Elijah could have gone to Heaven, and been sent back to do some errand. At Jesus transfiguration, the glorified Elijah and Moses appeared with Him.

    Christ can appear or not appear as He chooses. If there is a rapture, He can summon people to Him in whatever manner He chooses. The rapture idea is that Jesus calls His people to Him, He does not step on the earth and collect them.

    In the rapture idea, dead people are resurrected in their new bodies not their earthly bodies. Living people are raptured into their resurrection body, they don't go to Heaven in their earthly body. It makes no sense that a person stays in their 3D linear time sin riddled earthly body. The rapture itself (the taking up) can happen in the "twinkling of an eye" but the full process can take longer. Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary immediately after He was resurrected he told her not to touch him, He was clearly in His glorified body but the process may not have been completed.

    The last item is a common arguement - if all Christians are taken before the Tribulation then who are the "chosen ones" (some translations say "the elect")? A lot of people will become Christians during the Tribulation.
    Many debatable subjects have risen between flawed men, regarding Biblical pronouncements. Personally, I'll stick with the final arbiter, God's written word.

    As for the resurrection, and reuniting of an immaterial soul with the physical body. For this to be possible, of course, humans would have to have an immaterial soul that could separate from the physical body. The Bible does not teach such a thing. That notion was borrowed from Greek philosophy.
    Last edited by S-N-A-F-U; 09-18-2021 at 06:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson2 View Post
    The “Mark” is not just a stamp or symbol, to get the Mark you have to swear allegiance to the world ruler and accept him as god and ruler of the earth, only then can a person participate in his kingdom. If you refuse to swear allegiance you die. There won’t be any doubt as to what is going on.
    As I see current technology unfold I am of the belief that when a human take the mark, they are going to be changed at the DNA level and will no longer be as they were before they took the mark. With the invention of RNA aka vaccines that can program your body to do a task...

    The Mark of the Beast changes a person and once that change is complete, there is no redemption...
    Bring out your dead- The monster is amongst us waiting to be revealed - he bears the number of a man, 666.
    Death is not racist as it is
    color blind it comes for us all regardless of age or standing
    has no remorse, or feels pity
    cannot be reasoned with nor bargained with
    it is coming for us all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeuemmaimai View Post
    As I see current technology unfold I am of the belief that when a human take the mark, they are going to be changed at the DNA level and will no longer be as they were before they took the mark. With the invention of RNA aka vaccines that can program your body to do a task...

    The Mark of the Beast changes a person and once that change is complete, there is no redemption...

    You may make the mistake of looking for a too literal or visible "mark". The forehead represents the mind and BELIEF of a person. The hand represents what he DOES in connection with the dictates of his mind. Also in Revelation, we are told that the servants of God recieve a "seal" on their FOREHEADS. Is this too a VISIBLE mark?

    Additionally, if this mark is a computer chip or has to do with manipulating DNA, there is obviously no way in which it could have been implemented within less than 2000 years AFTER these things were written. Therefore, all the warnings and URGENT language (soon, shortly, at the door, etc.) to the early believers who read these things was MEANINGLESS if it could not have pertained to them in their lifetimes.
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; 09-18-2021 at 09:17 AM.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    You may make the mistake of looking for a too literal or visible "mark". The forehead represents the mind and BELIEF of a person. The hand represents what he DOES in connection with the dictates of his mind. Also in Revelation, we are told that the servants of God recieve a "seal" on their FOREHEADS. Is this too a VISIBLE mark?

    Additionally, if this mark is a computer chip or has to do with manipulating DNA, there is obviously no way in which it could have been implemented within less than 2000 years AFTER these things were written. Therefore, all the warnings and URGENT language (soon, shortly, at the door, etc.) to the early believers who read these things was MEANINGLESS if it could not have pertained to them in their lifetimes.
    highly unlikely as it has to be something that clearly defines one as belonging to the anti-Christ. There is no doubt, people will worship him and then receive the mark....Scripture is clear a mark is received.

    quit trying to read so much into it
    Bring out your dead- The monster is amongst us waiting to be revealed - he bears the number of a man, 666.
    Death is not racist as it is
    color blind it comes for us all regardless of age or standing
    has no remorse, or feels pity
    cannot be reasoned with nor bargained with
    it is coming for us all.

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