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Thread: Who Was The Beast Of The Book Of Revelation?

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    I used to think it was Hillary Clinton.

    But...I don't think the Beast would fall over as much.....
    Al Swearengen: What's your partner so mad about all the time?
    Sol Star: He's not mad.
    Al Swearengen: He's got a mean way of being happy.



  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    Here's the problem, my friend. In the very FIRST statement of your post, the red "contradiction" warning light is already flashing.

    If God is NOT willing that ANY should perish, but we know from the rest of the scripture that many WILL perish, then how has God's "will" been DONE? How has Jesus' prayer that "Thy will be DONE" also NOT failed? Plus, the one obvious way in which God could have AVOIDED his plan or will failing, would have been to NOT create free will beings in the first place, just to ransom some of them as his worshipper's?

    Now before you tell me I need to change my heart or I should just believe whether it makes sense or not, can you really BLAME me for asking such an obvious question, and can you blame me also for being even more suspicious of your belief if YOU can't answer it in a logical way?
    There are two aspects to God's will. (your's too)
    (1{ God has a moral will ~~ or that which God in His love strongly prefers
    (2) God has a Sovereign will ~~ or that which God knows MUST be done, so that chaos
    can be kept out of His kingdom and ultimately out of His Universe.

    God in His moral will, strongly prefers that you repent and believe.

    God in His Sovereign will knows that the institution of human Free Will is
    absolutely essential to His John 3:16 Human Race Love Project.

    God in His moral will will do everything He possibly can, within the framework of
    the what He knows MUST be established and maintained in order to accomplish
    His ultimate goal (which is, in my view, the establishment of a huge enormous
    REBELLION-FREE kingdom of literally trillions of human being before the final curtain
    falls and human history ends and the Eternal State follows aka Heaven.

    He will do everything He can to help you repent and believe.

    However, if you DEMAND that you remain, de facto, your own god and if you finally
    at last REJECT the principle embedded in Job 1:22 "In all this Job did not sin by
    charging God with wrongdoing" ~~ then you leave God with no other choice than
    to deliver you over to the perish of John 3:16. God cannot tolerate locked-down
    rebellion against His authority and still "remain God."
    The Father, Son, and Holy
    Spirit has ALREADY dealt with locked-down rebellion in Heaven when Satan and
    his angles were KICKED OUT using raw FORCE. Rev. 12:7-9

    ______________


    There are two aspects to your will also.

    Don't try to wiggle out of this illustration.

    You have a wife and 2 daughters, ages 13 and 16.
    You also have a son, Tom, 22 years old.

    He lives with you.

    You love him very much.

    You have done everything you know to do, to try to get him
    to change his destructive behavior.

    You have begged and pleaded.

    You have spent money on therapists.

    You have prayed.

    You have had close friends try to reason with him.
    Tom cursed them out when they tried to help him.

    Tom is in constant trouble with the police.

    Tom is getting more and more violent oriented.

    You are starting to have serious concerns about what Tom might
    do to you physically if you keep on trying to get him to change.

    In one of your "talks" with Tom just last week, Tom said that
    sometimes he has thoughts of harming you while you are
    sleeping.

    Tom has told you several times that he hates you.

    You have found deadly weapons in Tom's room.

    Tom often stares at you with obvious hate in his eyes.

    You now have made a decision to get Tom legally removed
    from your home and get a restraining court order against him.

    You are convinced that if you do this Tom will only get worse.
    But worse somewhere other than YOUR HOME.

    You remember Tom when he was a little boy and you still hope
    and pray that Tom will once again become that sweet dear child
    that he once was ~~ yet you have come to know and believe
    that Tom will eventually harm you physically in your sleep ~~
    maybe even harm his mother and his two sisters.

    Therefore you kick Tom out of your home and put him in the
    street via a court order.

    (1) Your moral will does not want that to happen.
    (2) Your "sovereign" will knows that it MUST happen, otherwise
    you will eventually have chaos and violence in your home.

    So?

    So John 3:16's perish was designed to forever "get rid of"
    , , ,"the Tom's" of this world.

    JAG
    Last edited by JAG; 06-12-2021 at 12:15 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    There are two aspects to God's will. (your's too)
    (1{ God has a moral will ~~ or that which God in His love strongly prefers
    (2) God has a Sovereign will ~~ or that which God knows MUST be done, so that chaos
    can be kept out of His kingdom and ultimately out of His Universe.

    God in His moral will, strongly prefers that you repent and believe.

    God in His Sovereign will knows that the institution of human Free Will is
    absolutely essential to His John 3:16 Human Race Love Project.

    God in His moral will will do everything He possibly can, within the framework of
    the what He knows MUST be established and maintained in order to accomplish
    His ultimate goal (which is, in my view, the establishment of a huge enormous
    REBELLION-FREE kingdom of literally trillions of human being before the final curtain
    falls and human history ends and the Eternal State follows aka Heaven.

    He will do everything He can to help you repent and believe.

    However, if you DEMAND that you remain, de facto, your own god and if you finally
    at last REJECT the principle embedded in Job 1:22 "In all this Job did not sin by
    charging God with wrongdoing" ~~ then you leave God with no other choice than
    to deliver you over to the perish of John 3:16. God cannot tolerate locked-down
    rebellion against His authority and still "remain God."
    The Father, Son, and Holy
    Spirit has ALREADY dealt with locked-down rebellion in Heaven when Satan and
    his angles were KICKED OUT using raw FORCE. Rev. 12:7-9

    ______________


    There are two aspects to your will also.

    Don't try to wiggle out of this illustration.

    You have a wife and 2 daughters, ages 13 and 16.
    You also have a son, Tom, 22 years old.

    He lives with you.

    You love him very much.

    You have done everything you know to do, to try to get him
    to change his destructive behavior.

    You have begged and pleaded.

    You have spent money on therapists.

    You have prayed.

    You have had close friends try to reason with him.
    Tom cursed them out when they tried to help him.

    Tom is in constant trouble with the police.

    Tom is getting more and more violent oriented.

    You are starting to have serious concerns about what Tom might
    do to you physically if you keep on trying to get him to change.

    In one of your "talks" with Tom just last week, Tom said that
    sometimes he has thoughts of harming you while you are
    sleeping.

    Tom has told you several times that he hates you.

    You have found deadly weapons in Tom's room.

    Tom often stares at you with obvious hate in his eyes.

    You now have made a decision to get Tom legally removed
    from your home and get a restraining court order against him.

    You are convinced that if you do this Tom will only get worse.
    But worse somewhere other than YOUR HOME.

    You remember Tom when he was a little boy and you still hope
    and pray that Tom will once again become that sweet dear child
    that he once was ~~ yet you have come to know and believe
    that Tom will eventually harm you physically in your sleep ~~
    maybe even harm his mother and his two sisters.

    Therefore you kick Tom out of your home and put him in the
    street via a court order.

    (1) Your moral will does not want that to happen.
    (2) Your "sovereign" will knows that it MUST happen, otherwise
    you will eventually have chaos and violence in your home.

    So?

    So John 3:16's perish was designed to forever "get rid of"
    , , ,"the Tom's" of this world.

    JAG

    At least 3 HUGE problems with the "Tom" analogy...


    1) Tom didn't have to believe in his father's existence by FAITH, or in the existence of any other "close friends who were trying to reason with him", by faith.

    2) Tom's punishment (legal removal from the home) doesn't sound nearly as bad as most Christians expect HELL to be, and his punishment, per the analogy, also provides the possibility of future repentance on his part, and a restored relationship with his father. "Hell" does NOT.

    3) God could have solved the problem of "Tom", and the problem of ALL the "Tom's" of the world, by simply not allowing any of those "bad eggs" to be successfully fertilized. More merciful for the "Tom's", less headaches for the well-behaved citizens, and now EVERYBODY goes to heaven, and STILL by free will, because only the people God KNEW would believe in him, would be born.
    All done, all through, and without the slightest need of a "wiggle" on my part
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; 06-12-2021 at 12:56 PM.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

    "I do not object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" (Amy Farrah Fowler)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Anon.)

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    At least 3 HUGE problems with the "Tom" analogy...


    1) Tom didn't have to believe in his father's existence by FAITH, or in the existence of any other "close friends who were trying to reason with him", by faith.

    2) Tom's punishment (legal removal from the home) doesn't sound nearly as bad as most Christians expect HELL to be, and his punishment, per the analogy, also provides the possibility of future repentance on his part, and a restored relationship with his father. "Hell" does NOT.

    3) God could have solved the problem of "Tom", and the problem of ALL the "Tom's" of the world, by simply not allowing any of those "bad eggs" to be successfully fertilized. More merciful for the "Tom's", less headaches for the well-behaved citizens, and now EVERYBODY goes to heaven, and STILL by free will, because only the people God KNEW would believe in him, would be born.
    All done, all through, and without the slightest need of a "wiggle" on my part
    Put it all in the pot and boil it and it will reduce to this:
    God is not going to allow any creature to be with Him in Heaven
    that will not STOP intellectualizing and criticizing His plans and
    submit , , , SUBMIT , , to His authority ~~ put another way
    God is God and you are not God and if you do not fully accept
    that principle and conduct your life based on that principle then
    the Bible emphatically and boldly declares that you will be
    separated from the people of God and "put somewhere else."

    Jesus used a metaphor to describe what they place will be like.
    Gehenna, a large garbage dump outside the ancient city of
    Jerusalem where they burned garbage and animal carcasses.

    What will actually happen to you when and if you arrive in
    Gehenna, I do not know.

    JAG

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    @SharetheHedge
    One of the best pieces I ever wrote:
    Twelve Legions Went To The Rim (thepoliticsforums.com)

    JAG

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    At least 3 HUGE problems with the "Tom" analogy...


    1) Tom didn't have to believe in his father's existence by FAITH, or in the existence of any other "close friends who were trying to reason with him", by faith.

    2) Tom's punishment (legal removal from the home) doesn't sound nearly as bad as most Christians expect HELL to be, and his punishment, per the analogy, also provides the possibility of future repentance on his part, and a restored relationship with his father. "Hell" does NOT.

    3) God could have solved the problem of "Tom", and the problem of ALL the "Tom's" of the world, by simply not allowing any of those "bad eggs" to be successfully fertilized. More merciful for the "Tom's", less headaches for the well-behaved citizens, and now EVERYBODY goes to heaven, and STILL by free will, because only the people God KNEW would believe in him, would be born.
    All done, all through, and without the slightest need of a "wiggle" on my part
    Here are three Bible verses you desperately need to lovingly and unreservedly embrace:

    "The secret things belong to God"
    Deut 29:29

    "It is not for you to know"__The Lord Jesus
    Acts 1:7

    "we know in part"
    1 Cor. 13:9

    JAG

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    Here are three Bible verses you desperately need to lovingly and unreservedly embrace:

    "The secret things belong to God"
    Deut 29:29

    "It is not for you to know"__The Lord Jesus
    Acts 1:7

    "we know in part"
    1 Cor. 13:9

    JAG

    If someone came to you and tried to evangelize you to THEIR chosen religion or belief system, and you pointed out how some of their tenets contradicted each other and they COULDN'T explain why there was no contradiction, but just declared it a "MYSTERY" and/or - it's "not for you to know at this time", you would have NO PROBLEM with that? I wouldn't believe you if you said "yes". I don't think you are, or could possibly be, that NAIVE - unless the belief system in question was something you eventually really WANTED to accept.


    WHY/HOW would anyone "unreservedly embrace" statements or claims about a proposed belief that essentially ABSOLVED that belief of any responsibility to defend it's claims, even if some of them seemed like obvious contradictions? Anyone could INVENT a religion of belief like that.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

    "I do not object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" (Amy Farrah Fowler)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Anon.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    If someone came to you and tried to evangelize you to THEIR chosen religion or belief system, and you pointed out how some of their tenets contradicted each other and they COULDN'T explain why there was no contradiction, but just declared it a "MYSTERY" and/or - it's "not for you to know at this time", you would have NO PROBLEM with that? I wouldn't believe you if you said "yes". I don't think you are, or could possibly be, that NAIVE - unless the belief system in question was something you eventually really WANTED to accept.


    WHY/HOW would anyone "unreservedly embrace" statements or claims about a proposed belief that essentially ABSOLVED that belief of any responsibility to defend it's claims, even if some of them seemed like obvious contradictions? Anyone could INVENT a religion of belief like that.
    Christianity is not a religion.
    Not like you are using the word "religion."

    Christianity is a relationship with a Person (Jesus) or more correctly
    a relationship with Persons: the Father, the Lord Jesus, and
    the Holy Spirit.

    You can NOT "join" Christianity.
    You must be born into Christianity supernaturally ~ see John 3:3.


    This is why you can NOT intellectualize your way into belief.

    Belief (faith) is a gift , , , a GIFT , , , that God will give , , , GIVE ,,, you
    if you sincerely ask Him. "for by Grace are you saved through faith
    and this not from yourselves ~ it is the gift of God" ~~ both salvation
    and faith are gifts from God.)

    Christianity is a Faith ~~ NOT a philosophical intellectual academic system
    based on empiricism and the scientific method ~~ and YOU ,,, just because you
    are locked-down on the false , , , FALSE , , , belief that Christianity is such a
    system, can NEVER , , , FORCE it to be such
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    "without faith it is impossible to please God"

    "for by grace are you saved through faith"

    "he that comes to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

    "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

    God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life


    JAG


    Last edited by JAG; 06-13-2021 at 02:30 PM.

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    Jen (06-13-2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    Christianity is not a religion.
    Not like you are using the word "religion."

    Christianity is a relationship with a Person (Jesus) or more correctly
    a relationship with Persons: the Father, the Lord Jesus, and
    the Holy Spirit.

    You can NOT "join" Christianity.
    You must be born into Christianity supernaturally ~ see John 3:3.


    This is why you can NOT intellectualize your way into belief.

    Belief (faith) is a gift , , , a GIFT , , , that God will give , , , GIVE ,,, you
    if you sincerely ask Him. "for by Grace are you saved through faith
    and this not from yourselves ~ it is the gift of God" ~~ both salvation
    and faith are gifts from God.)

    Christianity is a Faith ~~ NOT a philosophical intellectual academic system
    based on empiricism and the scientific method ~~ and YOU ,,, just because you
    are locked-down on the false , , , FALSE , , , belief that Christianity is such a
    system, can NEVER , , , FORCE it to be such
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    "without faith it is impossible to please God"

    "for by grace are you saved through faith"

    "he that comes to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

    "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

    God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life


    JAG


    This.
    Exactly this.




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    JAG (06-14-2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    Christianity is not a religion.
    Not like you are using the word "religion."

    Christianity is a relationship with a Person (Jesus) or more correctly
    a relationship with Persons: the Father, the Lord Jesus, and
    the Holy Spirit.

    You can NOT "join" Christianity.
    You must be born into Christianity supernaturally ~ see John 3:3.


    This is why you can NOT intellectualize your way into belief.

    Belief (faith) is a gift , , , a GIFT , , , that God will give , , , GIVE ,,, you
    if you sincerely ask Him. "for by Grace are you saved through faith
    and this not from yourselves ~ it is the gift of God" ~~ both salvation
    and faith are gifts from God.)

    Christianity is a Faith ~~ NOT a philosophical intellectual academic system
    based on empiricism and the scientific method ~~ and YOU ,,, just because you
    are locked-down on the false , , , FALSE , , , belief that Christianity is such a
    system, can NEVER , , , FORCE it to be such
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    "without faith it is impossible to please God"

    "for by grace are you saved through faith"

    "he that comes to God must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

    "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

    God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have eternal life


    JAG




    You are all screwed up. Who said I believed Christianity was a "philosophical intellectual academic system based on empiricism and the scientific method"?

    If it was, you might be able to DEFEND it? Of course I agree it is a FAITH, like every other belief that people believe by faith, every OTHER belief that you, as a Christian, CONSIDER FALSE.

    Islam, Mormonism, Christian Science, Hinduism, on and on. You believe they are all wrong but I suppose you did not arrive at that conclusion by REASON, what you refer to as "intellectualism"? How then did you decide that they are all wrong and traditional fundamentalist Christianity was CORRECT?


    Like this, maybe?...


    1) You believe orthodox/mainstream Christianity is objectively true.

    2) You realize all these other beliefs are CONTRADICTORY to what you would describe as orthodox Christianity.

    THEREFORE...(drum roll )...


    3))All these other beliefs must be FALSE.


    I seriously doubt you have a problem with that, and that is simple REASONING. When you get caught out by reason/logic, the SAME logical process that you constantly use in debating ANY point, however, you brand the conclusion you can't REFUTE, "intellectualism" - but it's NOT, it's just a bit more complex sequence of "if this, and if that, then THIS". A syllogism. Logic 101. The tool we use to survive and get through life with. The thing that prevents us from buying every "bridge" that every scam artist may try to sell us.

    The reason why we don't usually agree is that SOMEONE has a wrong premise and/or a glitch in his chain of reasoning. But you can't escape the reality that anytime you are hashing out any disagreement or seeking to EXPLAIN anything, you are REASONING. It is UNAVOIDABLE and conversation/communication CAN'T exist without it.

    That's why I disagree with you that Christianity CANNOT be subject to reason, because ANYTHING that is believed MUST be able to be scrutinized, otherwise it is meaningless. Anything that is true must be at least DEFENSIBLE through reason. I didn't say it must be PROVEN to be able to be true, but it cannot regard "reason" as it's ANTAGONIST, because that is self-incriminating, not to mention very, VERY suspicious.





    Last edited by SharetheHedge; 06-13-2021 at 04:11 PM.
    "Two possibilities exist - either we are alone in the universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying. (Arthur C. Clarke)

    "I do not object to the concept of a deity but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance" (Amy Farrah Fowler)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Anon.)

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