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Thread: Could It Be God's PLAN For Trump To Lose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    How many praying Christians here, who believe that God IS concerned about our nation, can honestly say they believe Trump WILL win? The polls look bad for him, but they also did in 2016. A lot of Christians on these boards were touting the 2016 as a MIRACLE, so they obviously also believed God WAS involved. Yet that victory DOESN'T seem to have provoked MORE faith that it can happen again, because there is a HUGE difference in the lukewarm response here to the possibilities of the upcoming election.

    What has happened in the last 3 years, or LATELY, that has caused people to LOSE CONFIDENCE that Trump can win? Whatever it is, it is being evaluated on the same scale as secular people evaluate things - by SIGHT, however...


    "For we walk by faith, NOT by sight." (2Cor.5:7)
    1. Because the god of this world is getting/will get increasing control over this world, leading up to a final rebellion against the True God.
    2. Faith is being tuned in to God's will, and timetable, not demanding ours.
    3. The Judgement of God is inevitable. There may be an opportunity for repentance, and a renewed call to get the individual reconciled to God, but once the birth pangs begin, the Baby will come.
    I am used to men who mock and scorn things beyond their comprehension. ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, 1749-1832
    ..they have one thing: they stick together and they're vicious.. ~ Donald Trump, 11/1/19

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    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    1. Because the god of this world is getting/will get increasing control over this world, leading up to a final rebellion against the True God.
    2. Faith is being tuned in to God's will, and timetable, not demanding ours.
    3. The Judgement of God is inevitable. There may be an opportunity for repentance, and a renewed call to get the individual reconciled to God, but once the birth pangs begin, the Baby will come.

    1) usfan - where/how have you been?


    2) Does that mean you can or cannot pray for Trump to win, in FAITH?
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; Yesterday at 07:08 AM.
    "If you think they hate Trump now, wait till his policies start working." (Dennis Miller)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Aristotle)


    "For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God..." 1Thess.4:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-N-A-F-U View Post
    One only has to go to Genesis to find the answer; why "Satan is the god of this world." 2 Cor. 4:4

    APPOINTED, as such, by the true God, of course


    “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4
    "If you think they hate Trump now, wait till his policies start working." (Dennis Miller)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Aristotle)


    "For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God..." 1Thess.4:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    1) usfan - where/how have you been?

    2) Does that mean you can or cannot pray for Trump to win, in FAITH?
    1. ..taking a break. But Trin has welcomed me back with open arms.. socially distant ones, of course.
    2. You can pray, but every prayer should always include the disclaimer, modeled by the Founder Himself, '..but not my will..', as an earlier poster noted.

    Being in tune with God's will, and His timetable is not easy nor expected. We see through a glass, darkly, and discerning the signs of the times is not an easy thing. I doubt that anyone can truly know, which even Jesus acknowledged.

    It is the job.. of the friends of the bridegroom.. to keep our lamps filled with oil, and the wicks trimmed.. keep our batteries charged, for He will come when we least expect it.

    For my part, i try to read the signs of the times, and forsee/warn of the coming reckoning. The repetitions of history are the best tea leaves, for divining the future, but one can never know.

    The one, certain theme, or message that NEVER becomes obsolete, is the same one that Jesus and John the Baptist brought:

    Repent!..for the kingdom of God is at hand!

    That message has never changed, and is still in force, up to the end.
    I am used to men who mock and scorn things beyond their comprehension. ~ Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, 1749-1832
    ..they have one thing: they stick together and they're vicious.. ~ Donald Trump, 11/1/19

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    APPOINTED, as such, by the true God, of course


    [FONT="]“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4[/FONT]
    Firstly....The meaning of the following Scripture.
    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
    Prov. 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself--i.e., to serve His own purposes, that His wisdom, goodness, &c, may be thereby revealed. Or the passage may be translated, "hath made all for its own end or purpose." The assertion that "He has made the wicked for the day of evil," does not mean that He created any one for punishment--i.e., predestined him for destruction. It only teaches that even the wicked are subservient to God's eternal purposes; that Pharaoh, for instance, by his rebellion could not change God's plans for the deliverance of His people, but only gave Him an occasion for showing forth His power, justice, goodness, and long-suffering. The "day of evil," i.e., punishment, at last overtook Pharaoh in accordance with the law and purpose of God that the wicked, if unrepentant, shall be punished, and thereby serve as a warning to others; but God by his long-suffering shewed that He was "not willing" that he should "perish," but rather that he "should come to repentance" (2Peter 3:9). This appears to be also the teaching of Paul in Romans 9:17, sqq.

    Secondly, God didn't appoint Satan to his new roll...

    By fomenting rebellion, this once trusted angel made himself Satan​—an adversary and enemy of God and man. The designation “Devil,” which means “Slanderer,” was also added to this wicked one’s description. This leader of sin eventually influenced other angels to disobey God and join his rebellion.
    (Genesis 6:1, 2; 1 Peter 3:19, 20)
    Last edited by S-N-A-F-U; Yesterday at 10:18 AM.

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    dupe.
    Last edited by S-N-A-F-U; Yesterday at 10:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-N-A-F-U View Post
    Firstly....The meaning of the following Scripture.
    Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
    Prov. 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself--i.e., to serve His own purposes, that His wisdom, goodness, &c, may be thereby revealed. Or the passage may be translated, "hath made all for its own end or purpose." The assertion that "He has made the wicked for the day of evil," does not mean that He created any one for punishment--i.e., predestined him for destruction. It only teaches that even the wicked are subservient to God's eternal purposes; that Pharaoh, for instance, by his rebellion could not change God's plans for the deliverance of His people, but only gave Him an occasion for showing forth His power, justice, goodness, and long-suffering. The "day of evil," i.e., punishment, at last overtook Pharaoh in accordance with the law and purpose of God that the wicked, if unrepentant, shall be punished, and thereby serve as a warning to others; but God by his long-suffering shewed that He was "not willing" that he should "perish," but rather that he "should come to repentance" (2Peter 3:9). This appears to be also the teaching of Paul in Romans 9:17, sqq.

    Secondly, God didn't appoint Satan to his new roll...

    By fomenting rebellion, this once trusted angel made himself Satan​—an adversary and enemy of God and man. The designation “Devil,” which means “Slanderer,” was also added to this wicked one’s description. This leader of sin eventually influenced other angels to disobey God and join his rebellion.
    (Genesis 6:1, 2; 1 Peter 3:19, 20)



    17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (Ro.9:17-18)


    You really have to do some logical contortions to argue that God is not responsible for EVERYTHING that exists and everything that happens, when NOTHING would have existed or happened apart from God existing and deciding to create. Even if you argue that God didn't DIRECTLY cause something to happen, you must acknowledge that he KNEW what WOULD happen IF he created such and such a person or initiated such and such a situation, so he is still inevitably responsible.

    For instance, you say that Lucifer was a "once TRUSTED" angel. Impossible. God KNEW what he would become, or else you don't believe in the omniscience of God when there are plenty of scriptures that indicate he knows "the end from the beginning". If you create something or someone, knowing beforehand what evil or calamity that person or thing will wreak, then YOU, as the creator and initiator, ARE responsible, morally, for that action.

    Your only real argument against this fact is that "God can do whatever he wants, He's GOD". Yes, if there is an omnipotent God then he CAN certainly do what he wants, but you can't defend it as compassionate, loving, and merciful, if it obviously ISN'T.

    Oh, BTW, it is also quite clear that Lucifer had to be INSANE to have thought he could have SUCCESSFULLY "rebelled" against God and stolen his throne. Any being that is in the presence of an omnipotent God would HAVE to know that was impossible. So now God was not only responsible for creating Lucifer, but creating him with a mental DEFECT whereby he thought he could actually DEFEAT God.

    If you would think something through, you would realize that God NEEDED Satan for the PURPOSE of rebelling, so he could play the antagonist in tempting man to also fall, and so bring SIN and DEATH upon mankind. God couldn't do that directly because he said he DOESN'T tempt anyone. So what do you do when you need to introduce sin and death into the world but you don't want to be blamed for it yourself? You invent a "fall guy" (Lucifer/Satan) who you know WILL do that, so you can blame blame HIM.
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; Yesterday at 11:30 AM.
    "If you think they hate Trump now, wait till his policies start working." (Dennis Miller)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Aristotle)


    "For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God..." 1Thess.4:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    1. ..taking a break. But Trin has welcomed me back with open arms.. socially distant ones, of course.
    2. You can pray, but every prayer should always include the disclaimer, modeled by the Founder Himself, '..but not my will..', as an earlier poster noted.

    Being in tune with God's will, and His timetable is not easy nor expected. We see through a glass, darkly, and discerning the signs of the times is not an easy thing. I doubt that anyone can truly know, which even Jesus acknowledged.

    It is the job.. of the friends of the bridegroom.. to keep our lamps filled with oil, and the wicks trimmed.. keep our batteries charged, for He will come when we least expect it.

    For my part, i try to read the signs of the times, and forsee/warn of the coming reckoning. The repetitions of history are the best tea leaves, for divining the future, but one can never know.

    The one, certain theme, or message that NEVER becomes obsolete, is the same one that Jesus and John the Baptist brought:

    Repent!..for the kingdom of God is at hand!

    That message has never changed, and is still in force, up to the end.

    If you include a "disclaimer" in your prayer, how do you know that disclaimer is not just an excuse to use if it doesn't happen, and therefore a LACK of faith, in reality?

    I could pray to the Hindu monkey God "Lord Hanuman" for something specific, and then just claim it "wasn't his will" when/if my prayer was apparently not answered. What would be the value of such a contention, and who would be impressed that I actually had a relationship to a LIVING God?
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; Yesterday at 12:00 PM.
    "If you think they hate Trump now, wait till his policies start working." (Dennis Miller)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Aristotle)


    "For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God..." 1Thess.4:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, y“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (Romans.9:17-18)


    You really have to do some logical contortions to argue that God is not responsible for EVERYTHING that exists and everything that happens, when NOTHING would have existed or happened apart from God existing and deciding to create. Even if you argue that God didn't DIRECTLY cause something to happen, you must acknowledge that he KNEW what WOULD happen IF he created such and such a person or initiated such and such a situation, so he is still inevitably responsible.

    For instance, you say that Lucifer was a "once TRUSTED" angel. Impossible. God KNEW what he would become, or else you don't believe in the omniscience of God when there are plenty of scriptures that indicate he knows "the end from the beginning". If you create something or someone, knowing beforehand what evil or calamity that person or thing will wreak, then YOU, as the creator and initiator, ARE responsible, morally, for that action.

    Your only real argument against this fact is that "God can do whatever he wants, He's GOD". Yes, if there is an omnipotent God then he CAN certainly do what he wants, but you can't defend it as compassionate, loving, and merciful, if it obviously ISN'T.

    Oh, BTW, it is also quite clear that Lucifer had to be INSANE to have thought he could have SUCCESSFULLY "rebelled" against God and stolen his throne. Any being that is in the presence of an omnipotent God would HAVE to know that was impossible. So now God was not only responsible for creating Lucifer, but creating him with a mental DEFECT whereby he thought he could actually DEFEAT God.

    If you would think something through, you would realize that God NEEDED Satan for the PURPOSE of rebelling, so he could play the antagonist in tempting man to also fall, and so bring SIN and DEATH upon mankind. God couldn't do that directly because he said he DOESN'T tempt anyone. So what do you do when you need to introduce sin and death into the world but you don't want to be blamed for it yourself? You invent a "fall guy" (Lucifer/Satan) who you know WILL do that, so you can blame blame HIM.
    Firstly, The following chapter in the Old Testament refers to the Nation of Israel, which was under the OLD COVENANT. Where God had a special bond with them, and was proactive in the rule of that nation, then.

    What does Romans chapter 9 mean?

    Romans 9 tackles challenging and hard-to-follow issues. These involve both Israel's place in God's plans (at the that time) and God's own character.

    Paul begins by declaring how heartbroken he is about the state of his people Israel. Paul was both Jewish and a Roman citizen. He and his father both served as Pharisees. Paul was truly a child of Israel. He was in such anguish for his people because they had, as a nation, rejected Christ. A few had believed, but Paul knew the majority of Jewish people were trusting the law to save them from God's wrath. Paul has gone to great lengths in Romans to show that the law cannot save. Shockingly, Paul says that he could wish that he would be cut off from Christ if, presumably, his people would come to Him (Romans 9:1–3).

    Paul finds Israel's rejection of the Messiah all the more sad because God has given to her so many privileges as His chosen people. These include national adoption, showing them His glory, the covenants, the law of Moses, the worship at the temple, the promises, the patriarchs, and the ancestry of Christ. Paul insists that God will keep all His promises to Israel, but that not everyone physically born an Israelite will be saved from God's wrath (Romans 9:4–7).

    To show that God can give His mercy to whomever He likes, Paul gives three examples from Israel's history in Scripture. In Paul's first example, God chose to give His promises to Abraham's son by Sarah and not by any of his other wives. Second, God chose to give the promises to one of Rebekah's twin sons and not the other before they were even born. Third, God hardened Pharaoh's heart while He was raining down plagues upon Egypt in order to increase His own glory (Romans 9:8–18).

    Is that fair of God? Paul imagines his readers asking this question and fires back at us: "Who are you to answer back, mere mortal?" He compares God to a potter and asks if the potter cannot make items out of the same lump of clay pots for both honorable and dishonorable purposes. Paul takes it further, asking if God could not make vessels of wrath prepared for the purpose of destruction. What if, though, God patiently dealt with those vessels of wrath even though He was willing to show His anger and power against them for another purpose? Somehow, Paul seems to suggest, God's patience with the vessels of wrath is tied to revealing His glory to "vessels of mercy" that have been prepared for glory (Romans 9:19–24).

    Finally, Paul quotes from Scriptures in Hosea and Isaiah to show that God has called out some Gentiles to be His people, while also calling out a remnant—but not all—of Israel. He has called all of these out through faith in Christ. The Jewish people have stumbled over the stumbling block of Christ because they have sought to reach righteousness by their works instead of faith (Romans 9:25–33).


    Which brings us right back where it all started, when God created man, and angels alike with free will with personal responsibilities attached thereto.

    Unfortunately, some will still claim that there is no such thing as free will--that all our actions are predetermined by God. Others argue that true free will is only possible if we have absolute freedom. However, to understand this matter properly, we must turn to God’s Word, the Bible. Why? It reveals that Jehovah created us with free will; that is, the capacity and freedom to make our own intelligent choices. (Read Joshua 24:15.)

    The Bible does teach that God is Almighty, that his power is not limited by anyone other than himself. (Job 37:23; Isaiah 40:26) However, he does not use his power to control everything. For example, the Bible says that God was “exercising self-control” toward ancient Babylon, an enemy of his people. (Isaiah 42:14) Similarly, for now, he chooses to tolerate those who misuse their free will to harm others. But God will not do so indefinitely.—Psalm 37:10, 11.


    Illogical contortions? Hardly!

    "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." ~ Isaiah 55:9
    Last edited by S-N-A-F-U; Today at 05:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-N-A-F-U View Post
    Firstly, The following chapter in the Old Testament refers to the Nation of Israel, which was under the OLD COVENANT. Where God had a special bond with them, and was proactive in the rule of that nation, then.

    What does Romans chapter 9 mean?

    Romans 9 tackles challenging and hard-to-follow issues. These involve both Israel's place in God's plans (at the that time) and God's own character.

    Paul begins by declaring how heartbroken he is about the state of his people Israel. Paul was both Jewish and a Roman citizen. He and his father both served as Pharisees. Paul was truly a child of Israel. He was in such anguish for his people because they had, as a nation, rejected Christ. A few had believed, but Paul knew the majority of Jewish people were trusting the law to save them from God's wrath. Paul has gone to great lengths in Romans to show that the law cannot save. Shockingly, Paul says that he could wish that he would be cut off from Christ if, presumably, his people would come to Him (Romans 9:1–3).

    Paul finds Israel's rejection of the Messiah all the more sad because God has given to her so many privileges as His chosen people. These include national adoption, showing them His glory, the covenants, the law of Moses, the worship at the temple, the promises, the patriarchs, and the ancestry of Christ. Paul insists that God will keep all His promises to Israel, but that not everyone physically born an Israelite will be saved from God's wrath (Romans 9:4–7).

    To show that God can give His mercy to whomever He likes, Paul gives three examples from Israel's history in Scripture. In Paul's first example, God chose to give His promises to Abraham's son by Sarah and not by any of his other wives. Second, God chose to give the promises to one of Rebekah's twin sons and not the other before they were even born. Third, God hardened Pharaoh's heart while He was raining down plagues upon Egypt in order to increase His own glory (Romans 9:8–18).

    Is that fair of God? Paul imagines his readers asking this question and fires back at us: "Who are you to answer back, mere mortal?" He compares God to a potter and asks if the potter cannot make items out of the same lump of clay pots for both honorable and dishonorable purposes. Paul takes it further, asking if God could not make vessels of wrath prepared for the purpose of destruction. What if, though, God patiently dealt with those vessels of wrath even though He was willing to show His anger and power against them for another purpose? Somehow, Paul seems to suggest, God's patience with the vessels of wrath is tied to revealing His glory to "vessels of mercy" that have been prepared for glory (Romans 9:19–24).

    Finally, Paul quotes from Scriptures in Hosea and Isaiah to show that God has called out some Gentiles to be His people, while also calling out a remnant—but not all—of Israel. He has called all of these out through faith in Christ. The Jewish people have stumbled over the stumbling block of Christ because they have sought to reach righteousness by their works instead of faith (Romans 9:25–33).


    Which brings us right back where it all started, when God created man, and angels alike with free will with personal responsibilities attached thereto.

    Unfortunately, some will still claim that there is no such thing as free will--that all our actions are predetermined by God. Others argue that true free will is only possible if we have absolute freedom. However, to understand this matter properly, we must turn to God’s Word, the Bible. Why? It reveals that Jehovah created us with free will; that is, the capacity and freedom to make our own intelligent choices. (Read Joshua 24:15.)

    The Bible does teach that God is Almighty, that his power is not limited by anyone other than himself. (Job 37:23; Isaiah 40:26) However, he does not use his power to control everything. For example, the Bible says that God was “exercising self-control” toward ancient Babylon, an enemy of his people. (Isaiah 42:14) Similarly, for now, he chooses to tolerate those who misuse their free will to harm others. But God will not do so indefinitely.—Psalm 37:10, 11.


    Illogical contortions? Hardly!

    "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." ~ Isaiah 55:9


    You just admitted that God "fashions" some for glory and some for destruction. The blatant contradiction here is that this kind of God (if true) CANNOT be "love" as John says. John didn't just say God HAS love, but that God IS love. That his NATURE is love meaning he cannot be, or exemplify, anything contrary. Now HOW/WHY could a being, who WAS love, whose "mercy endureth forever", create a race of imperfect, finite creatures and then saddle them with a law that they COULD NOT fully keep, resulting in judgement and death for them, and the only "way out" for them is to believe in, and submit their whole lives to, that same being who is "hiding" (Is.45:15) to the point where they have to believe the whole story by FAITH, basically insuring that MOST will NOT be saved?

    This whole "plan" is NEITHER "loving" nor is it a success for the one who initiated it, the one of which it says "God does not DESIRE that ANY should perish." God DOESN'T get what he "desires" and MOST of mankind gets obliterated in the process.

    Any plan wherein the result is WORSE than simply not enacting a plan in the first place, has to be considered a FAILURE, doesn't it?
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; Today at 09:51 AM.
    "If you think they hate Trump now, wait till his policies start working." (Dennis Miller)

    "Tolerance is the last virtue of a dying society." ​(Aristotle)


    "For the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God..." 1Thess.4:16

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