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Thread: Why Can't God Forgive Sin Without The "Shedding Of Blood"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny1 View Post
    No, I WON"T answer your Bait. Read the Bible. THEN we can talk.
    What we have here, is an admitted Atheist, asking questions about a Deity he doesn't believe is, not to understand, but to refute. Yet, you won't read the Subject matter you are questioning. And, when I won't play your game by YOUR rules, you call me ignorant and a cop out. Typical.
    I AM following the admonition of the Scriptures, not to engage in contention about the Scriptures. The only instruction I have received about speaking to people about Christ, is to announce the Good News of God's Kingdom. I have no need to convince you of Squat. Trying to manipulate me by insulting and questioning my intelligence just reinforces my observations about atheists to anyone who may be watching, so as not to deter them from searching for Bilical Answers to THEIR questions.
    Try being Honest Hearted, and maybe you'll get somewhere. Right now, you are wasting everyone's time, for nothing but an argument.
    I will Not be playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-N-A-F-U View Post



    One doesn't Critique God, he sets the parameters, not us! He established one law for the first couple, and they failed to heed that law. They were at the doorstep of living forever on a paradise earth with out sickness and death, and that gift would've been passed down to their progeny as well. Satan did a good job of clouding the minds of the first couple, as he has since with the rest of the world as it's god (2 Cor. 4:4)

    Ah, If we did not possess free will, but instead our course were fixed for us, we would not have the power of molding our minds according to our wishes, according to the things we chose to take into the brain. We would be more like creatures of instinct, like lower animals. Their brains are not so blank as humans’ at birth; most of their circuits are already there, and they can add but few thereafter. They come nearer to being predestinated at birth than do men. They primarily follow God-given instinct. Man, on the other hand, makes up his own mind. And because each one does it differently, each one is a separate individual, a distinct personality. It is a person’s thoughts and acts that make him what he is. Jehovah God so states: “Just as he hath thought in his own mind, so he is.” (Prov. 23:7) From the heart, which frequently stands for the mind, come words and acts. (Matt. 12:34; 15:19) So what a person thinks, says and does is largely governed by the mind. To change himself, to remold himself, he must change his thinking; for as he thinks, so is he.


    So it is by taking in accurate knowledge about Jehovah and Christ that human creatures made of dust or clay can be remolded, changed from vessels of wrath to vessels fit for divine mercy. (John 17:3) On the other hand, this information, instead of remolding men born under wrath and condemnation into vessels of glory, hardens some even more as vessels of wrath, even driving them to murder. (John 8:37-45; Acts 7:54-60; 2 Tim. 3:8) And this testimony that either hardens vessels of wrath or remolds them into vessels fit for mercy, where is it found? In God’s Word, the Bible. So through his Word Jehovah either makes persons more stubbornly wicked or changes them into his glorious servants, and this without any forcing of the creature, but rather it is as the creature himself wills to react. It is like a person that receives a letter from a certain man and which makes the person change his mind, and as a result the person says, “That man made me change my mind.” Yet there was no forcing involved; the person changed of his own free will.


    Another instance of this is where God’s servants are commanded to “keep making straight paths for your feet”, and yet elsewhere it is said concerning Jehovah: “He will make straight your paths.” (Prov. 3:6,; Heb. 12:13, ) Who makes the paths straight? Predestinarians say it is God, not men, and try to prove it by quoting Jeremiah 10:23: “It is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” Man in himself cannot do it, but Jehovah will do it for him, not through predestination, but through His Word: “How can a young man keep his path pure? By heeding thy word.” “Thy word is a lamp to my feet, and a light on my path.” (Ps. 119:9, 105, ) It is you that must of your own free will “keep making straight paths for your feet”, but since you can do it only by heeding God’s Word it is also correct to say Jehovah “will make straight your paths”, by means of his Word.

    Foreknowledge no violation of free will...

    Jehovah God can penetrate the innermost thoughts of the mind, and foresee the course that will be taken by not only individuals but also classes. (1 Sam. 16:7; Eph. 3:20; Heb. 4:12) He created the mind that directs man, knows its intricate operation, and can instantly detect the bent of man’s mind and know what that bent of mind will eventually lead to. He took just such a measure of men’s minds before the Noachian flood, and found them unreformable. (Gen. 6:5) Before the Israelites entered Canaan Jehovah gave testimony against them for future reference, to show he foreknew what their mental disposition would lead them to and that they had been forewarned: “I know what their temperament will lead to, even now, before I bring them into the land, which I promised them on oath.” (Deut. 31:21) He also foreknew and described in advance as a warning for us the wickedness of men in these last days of this old world; also the existence of a “great crowd” that would serve him. (2 Tim. 3:1-5, 13; Rev. 7:9, ) So Jehovah foreknows that the majority of mankind today will perish with Satan at Armageddon, and that only a minority will side with him and live. (Isa. 24:6; Jer. 25:33) Hence he foreknows the fate of millions as a class, and so it is no great thing if he foresees the end of an individual. Yet in general he restricts his foreknowledge to classes rather than to the individuals comprising them.

    Foreknowledge, without certain prior conditions existing by which to determine the logical result to be expected, amounts to the same thing as predestination. Predestinarians disagree, for they say predestination is not based on any foreseen works of the individuals involved, as that would make destiny-fixing dependent on future works, and that they will not accept. Yet others still contend that God’s foreknowledge that some individuals in view of certain inward conditions will fail, forces them to fail in order that the divine foreknowledge be proved right. Or, for that matter, that God’s foreknowledge that the majority will perish at Armageddon rules out any widespread conversion to godliness. Their analysis fails to reach the root of the matter. The point is, the mere exercise of his foreknowledge based on certain existing conditions is not what makes the foreseen happen. His exercise of it is a gracious service to men, for it makes possible the warnings in his Word. Since they primarily concern classes without fixing the fate of individuals, it makes it possible for individuals to put themselves in the surviving minority class and to shun the perishing majority group. To be saved individuals must be, not according to the King James Version “ordained to eternal life”, but according to modern translation “rightly disposed for everlasting life”, and such personal disposition is unaffected by foreknowledge. (Acts 13:48) The individual’s inmost thoughts, his heart condition and his deeds are the basis on which judgment and destiny rest. (Rev. 2:23) Otherwise, why would Jehovah test persons, and why would the Devil rage like a lion to devour the faithful? The issue of integrity would become meaningless, unreal.

    To illustrate how the mere exercise of such conditioned foreknowledge does not of itself destroy independent action, consider examples of the limited use human creatures make of it. An astronomer can foretell when a certain comet is going to streak through the sky, or when there will be an eclipse of the sun or moon. Does his foreknowledge of the comet’s visit or the eclipse make such things happen? An engineer may know bridges, and see a weak brace, and know that when a heavy freight train comes along the brace will give way and the bridge collapse. Does his mere knowledge of the weakness make the brace break and the bridge fall? A machinist may use X ray to see a hidden flaw within a steel part of a machine and thus know the part will break under the strain of operation. But would not the part break regardless of whether the machinist knew the weakness or not? We know the sun will rise tomorrow, but it is not our knowing that fact that makes it rise.

    Take illustrations of animate things. We know that a cat will play with a mouse and a dog will chase a rabbit. We know that because of our knowledge of cats and dogs. But our mere knowing it does not bring it about. If we were totally ignorant of the ways of cats and dogs when in the presence of mice and rabbits, the tormenting play and the frantic chase would still take place. You may know someone who is an alcoholic, and know that when he begs money from someone he is going to spend it for liquor. But your foreknowledge of that does not make him do it. When you have close friends and learn their mannerisms or mental tendencies or peculiarities, you often know in advance what they will do under certain circumstances. But your foreknowledge due to insight into their personalities does not force them to so act, does it? They still act of their own free will, unmaneuvered and uncoerced by your foreknowledge, do they not? You may know how the quarreling nations of East and West will react under certain conditions, but because of that you would not think it just for you to be blamed for the squabbles, would you?

    So why blame God for what his foreknowledge reveals to him? He knows what is in the human mind, how it works, and is aware of its bent toward good or evil. But just that he can read what is in a man’s mind and see the way it will go does not make him responsible for what is in that mind, any more than we are responsible for what we may read in a book. It is the one who wrote the book that is responsible for its contents, and it is likewise the individual that harbors improper thoughts that is responsible for them. The thought is not put there by God, any more than we put the printed thought in the book we read. And just as we can either read or refrain from reading the book, so Jehovah can either look into or refrain from looking into our mind, can either foresee the course our mind will direct us into or withhold such knowledge from himself. In any event, we are created free moral agents and use that freedom as we choose.

    Some, still stubbornly seeking to shift blame to God, criticize him for making man with free moral agency, saying if he had not done so man could never have gone wrong. Their reasoning is very shallow. Jehovah created man for His pleasure, and faithful men do give pleasure to God. (Ps. 35:27; 147:11; 149:4; Rev. 4:11) And it is the faculty of free will in man that greatly contributes to Jehovah’s pleasure. This is illustrated in man’s affairs, who was given dominion over the earth as God holds it over the universe. Man can make a mechanical dog, wind it up, and watch it hop around, knowing exactly what it will do. It is void of will, restricted by mechanical design. It may entertain for a time, but is not nearly as enjoyable as a live dog. The live dog has a certain measure of choice, and when we exercise dominion over it and train it we derive pleasure from it. The dog may be trained to do tricks, or render valuable service, such as that performed by a sheep dog. We are pleased because the dog does not obey us just because it has to, can do no differently. It gives us pleasure when it obeys us out of free choice, thus showing attachment to us. But if it rebels against our training, such as sheep dogs sometimes do by turning killer, we have no pleasure in it and are forced to destroy it because it misused its power of choice.

    In the same way man’s proper use of free will brings pleasure to God. Jehovah had many creations without free will, such as the stars and planets, which mechanically obey his laws of motion and stay in their assigned orbits; and even lower animals, and especially insects, are rather mechanical in action, since they are governed largely by instinct instead of reason. Man was to be something different, something higher, something suitable to put over the rest of earthly creation to exercise proper dominion over it, as a faithful servant of Jehovah. To make him “very good” for such an assignment Jehovah made man in God’s image, with qualities of justice, love, wisdom and power. (Gen. 1:26-31) A mechanical man, which is what one without free will would amount to, might have power, but would lack the other divine attributes. Justice implies the ability to choose between right and wrong. Wisdom involves among other things the intelligence needed to make the right choice. Love is shown by obedience to the commands of the Creator, and must be freely and cheerfully given to be genuine and a pleasure to the recipient. (1 John 5:3) God gave man these qualities, and the instructions for their proper use, and even added a conscience to guide when doubts as to right or wrong arose. (Rom. 2:12-16) But if the man rebels he is destroyed, just as is the sheep dog that turns killer. Yes, Jehovah could have made a robot instead of a man, but it would have given him no more pleasure than a mechanical dog gives us. So just as we prefer live dogs over mechanical ones, so Jehovah wanted live men with free moral agency instead of mechanical men. And, incidentally, since Jehovah created all things, including men, for his pleasure; and since he takes no pleasure in the death of men, he would hardly have predestinated many to die before he made them. Such creations would have brought him no pleasure, and would be a violation of his expressed principle of creating only for his pleasure.—Ezek. 18:23, 32; 33:11.

    Those who complain about being made with free will would not have it otherwise. They do not want to be a machine, or even a living insect guided only by instinct, responding in a mechanical way to environment, devoid of intelligence, unable to make decisions or cope with unanticipated changes in conditions. As men they would not welcome partial removal of their free will, such as happens when men go to prison, having little say as to where they go, what they do, how they live, and so forth. Even persons of Satan’s world are hemmed in and their free will is circumscribed to an extent. They are enslaved by a rotten system, their minds shaped by demonistic propaganda, spiritually blinded by false religions, physically bound down to an office desk or factory assembly line, with noses kept to irksome grindstones to meet the obligations of time payments and other accumulated responsibilities under a system that regiments humanity to facilitate the exploitation thereof. Men fight and die for freedom. They want freedom of worship now, but some object because God gave it to Adam and Eve. That pair misused their freedom; so some say they should never have had it. Many men misuse freedom of worship today; is that reason to deny it to all?


    We are free moral agents, thank Jehovah God for that. We are not motorcars at whose wheel God sits and steers in the right or wrong way, guiding us beyond our power to control. He does not run us by some celestial remote-control system as men can drive cars or sail ships or fly planes by remote control. We are not predestinated to go this way or that, like puppets with strings attached and which God sits around and pulls to suit his whim. He made us men, not puppets, not machines. Instead of fretting over it, quibbling with God about it, we should busy ourselves in using it rightly, in harmony with divine requirements, and thereby assure ourselves of everlasting life.

    When Jehovah pronounced his earthly creation, including man, “very good” it meant perfect: “His work is perfect.” (Deut. 32:4) Yet some say, If Adam and Eve had been perfect they would not have wrongly used their freedom of will and choice. But not necessarily so. A machine may be well designed, of flawless materials, of excellent workmanship, and accompanied by clear instructions as to the kind of fuel that will suitably run it, and warnings against using inferior fuels. Now, if the wrong fuel is deliberately used in defiance of the manufacturer’s careful instructions and the machine is fouled up and ruined, can the maker be blamed for producing an inferior machine? Not rightly so. It was the same with Adam and Eve. Their minds were perfect. Their bodies were perfect. Their provided food for mind and body was perfect. They were clearly and perfectly instructed as to what fuel to take in and what to reject. Then Satan through the serpent suggested a change in fuel, saying it would give them more power, give them a lift, make them like gods. So Eve took in the wrong fuel and got fouled up. She gave some to Adam and he was fouled up. Both were beyond repair; they were deliberate in their disobedience to instructions. Of them it is true: “God made mankind right, but they have sought out many villainies!” —Gen. 2:16, 17;3:1-6; Eccl. 7:29

    If Adam and Eve could not have used their free moral agency wrongly, it would not have been really free. God put them to a simple test to see how they would use it, to determine their holiness. It was a question of holiness, not of physical perfection. God knew they were perfect, and if that meant inability to fall away he would never have posed the test, knowing that due to their perfection they could not fail. The covering cherub was perfect until iniquity was found in him. (Ezek. 28:15) His perfection did not prevent his fall. His lack of holiness brought on his fall. Today some men choose to do right and serve God in holiness, but that does not make them perfect. Conversely, Adam and Eve chose to do wrong and be unholy, but that did not mean they were imperfect to begin with. It just means men are free moral agents, able to choose for themselves, and their right use of this ability is not a matter of perfection but of holiness. So the test in Eden was not to measure perfection or imperfection, but was to demonstrate holiness or unholiness.

    In these closing days of wickedness God's people must demonstrate holiness. They must not foul their minds with the filthy mental food on the propaganda tables of this old world, but must feed on the feast of fat things God provides. (Isa. 25:6;28:8) Again, we are free moral agents empowered to answer as we choose, unhindered by predestination, uncoerced by foreknowledge. And so be it!


    “Scoffer” is the name of the arrogant, haughty man who acts with arrogant pride." ~ Prov. 21:24
    Another pantload.

    tl:dr beyond the first two paragraphs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWF View Post
    The Law of God was made for man. Not man made for the Law. So the "deeper" question is, Why Did God Make Man in the first place?

    God answers this very plainly, easily understood, not puzzling nor mysterious at all. The problem only arises when people refuse to accept the plain, easily understood, answer. We, Man, were made in the image of God after His Likeness. We were made to become a Child of God Himself. This requires taking on the Nature of God, the Character of God. And this takes time and instruction to accomplish.

    We are free agents with free choice, just as God IS. We are to become Spirit, just as God is. God does not sin because He Will not. We are to develop this same Character. Godly Character cannot be created by fiat. It must be developed, over time, and it is tried and tested. God is giving, sharing, who He is with others, physical beings with the potential to become a Child of God.
    If one believes the tales god will torment nearly all of us forever. Your god is a sadist unfit to live.

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    Actually the Bible make so such claim. It says the wages of sin is death. Eternal torture is a church created myth, created to keep people under the church's rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    Actually the Bible make so such claim. It says the wages of sin is death. Eternal torture is a church created myth, created to keep people under the church's rule.

    What's really staggering is that most Christians DO believe it, and yet find NO inequity with the "sentence" of an INFINITE period of conscious suffering for a very FINITE few years of sinning. I cannot realistically believe that they honestly see no problem with this, but feel they MUST defend it?
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; 12-03-2019 at 02:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    What's really staggering is that most Christians DO believe it, and yet find NO inequity with the "sentence" of an INFINITE period of conscious suffering for a very FINITE few years of sinning. I cannot realistically believe that they honestly see no problem with this, but feel they MUST defend it?
    That's why the Church invented purgatory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    What's really staggering is that most Christians DO believe it, and yet find NO inequity with the "sentence" of an INFINITE period of conscious suffering for a very FINITE few years of sinning. I cannot realistically believe that they honestly see no problem with this, but feel they MUST defend it?
    Well you have to realize that this only happens to other people, have you ever heard of a Christian funeral where the deceased wasn't going to heaven?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    That's why the Church invented purgatory.
    They were pretty clever on that little gem of control.
    "I told you the economy was going to tank under Trump". "Yeah you did. Pre Pandemic". "It was going to tank even without the Pandemic". "Uh-huh. Trumps economy was hitting it out of the park Pre Pandemic." <---My cut and paste time saving signature - for all the doom and gloom predictors who will try to rewrite history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Don't be a Putz. I never participate in your little Inquisitions. I just make sure that those who observe know what atheist are aiming to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny1 View Post
    Don't be a Putz. I never participate in your little Inquisitions. I just make sure that those who observe know what atheist are aiming to do.
    You bowed out, fearfully, I suspect.

    What are we aiming to do? I aim to quiz Christians about their beliefs. Think of it as helping you testify.

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