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Thread: Science and Faith

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWF View Post
    To say that religion is an insult would also infer that God is an insult as well. And this statement comes from a Nobel Prize winning scientist known and respected world wide.
    Not true at all. Religion is an insult and "God" is not. Religion has nothing to do with any real "God", just man made ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    Not true at all. Religion is an insult and "God" is not. Religion has nothing to do with any real "God", just man made ones.
    Man is the only animal intelligent enough to create gods and frightened enough to need to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWF View Post
    To come up with an eternal being composed of invisible spirit who created the universe, gives life, and saves from death is not derived from an imagination. It is founded upon history and passed down generationally.
    It absolutely did arise from imagination and it was passed down from there. In fact there has been thousands of imaginations of "God" over thousands of years.

    If there is a real "God" either we would know it, or if it remains hidden from us we have only our imagination to create what we are inspired to believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
    Man is the only animal intelligent enough to create gods and frightened enough to need to.
    You ever seen that video of a monkey that sees a guy do a magic trick? It freaken blows the monkey's mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    The science you claim is dedicated to studying spiritual non-sense is studying physical realities then conflating that reality with the spiritual nonsense they imagine must exist.

    I can and do state that there is no evidence that any "God" actually exists, that is not the same as saying it does not exist, but essentially, no evidence does lead to the reasoning that it likely does not exist.

    I wonder how you come to the conclusion on which animals have a spiritual experience and which do not, especially when you can't even define what spiritual means. If you can not prove it exists, how can you describe what it is and determine which animals have a spirit and which ones do not. An elephant understands death, so what. Dogs, cats and Primates don't? Based on what assumption?


    Science never stops asking questions, it's only when you accept "God did it" that inquiry stops.
    You are "entirely" missing the point.

    The CLAIM that "God exists" comes from subjective experience. You could make the logical argument about a prime mover, but in that case you wouldn't have to call it God, right?

    So, before we go making assumptions about the results of the experience, it seems to me we should investigate the experience itself, first. Because if we don't understand the experience, any claims around it are largely meaningless.

    No one is conflating anything with anything. They are INVESTIGATING SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE, is what they're doing.

    Just because you haven't had one, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And it's preposterous for anyone to make that claim. Considering the historical record of millions upon millions of people who have.

    You ever heard of psychophysics? Check it out, Google is your friend. Weber and Fechner - the method there, is subjects are asked to report their subjective experience in response to Quantified stimuli. So, they're not measuring the physical response of receptors or nerve cells, they are attempting to measure subjective experience directly. And, one hundred years ago, verbal reporting was the only primitive technology available for that purpose. Today however, we have functional MRI we can look at your brain and determine the situation before you can even report it. The scientists have to look backward a few hundred milliseconds in time, once the report occurs.

    Furthermore - if you have ever read the very famous book by the psychologist William James, called "varieties of religious experience", you will understand that you have to elicit these states under carefully controlled conditions, if you wish to actually measure them.

    There are other methods. Simple questionnaires. The MEQ30, for example, is supposed to assess whether you have had or are capable of spiritual experiences.

    Then - regarding elephants - what I was talking about is visible BEHAVIORAL evidence of spiritual experience. For example, chimpanzees dance around near a waterfall, in what appears to be complete abandonment - does that mean they're having a spiritual experience? It's hard to say, awe could be considered an elementary form of spiritual experience. It's debatable. However elephant behavior is very sophisticated and quite detailed, and has been extensively documented.

    I'll address your last sentence in a separate post.

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    Regarding the claim that "God did it" - that's a tautology. Of COURSE God did it duh - and so what? God does everything, it's nothing new. God even made the rules that create the random behavior in a random universe, so in a very obvious sense, every little random thing that happens is a direct result of God's handiwork.

    You see? You cannot crack this nut with logic, it's impossible. ( - grin - )

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
    Man is the only animal intelligent enough to create gods and frightened enough to need to.
    That is an assertion on your part.

    Actually more like a SWAG, probably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    It absolutely did arise from imagination and it was passed down from there. In fact there has been thousands of imaginations of "God" over thousands of years.
    Okay, good. Let's start there. So, why do you suppose that is? Why would millions of people all have the same fantasy over thousands of years?

    The psychologist Carl Jung had a theory about these common fantasies, he called them "archetypes".

    So now, once you start investigating the types of relationships that people have with their God, things get interesting. As you say, people see different things. Some people believe that God is capricious and vindictive, while other people believe he is loving and forgiving.

    These things, I call "attributes", it is human beings assigning anthropomorphic attributes to God. For example someone in the other thread said God was "inerrant" - that's an anthropomorphic attribute, it only makes sense to human beings.

    But this reflects on the human being, not necessarily on their God. One cannot make the assumption that human beings are capable of perceiving God, or even the results of God. That would be a rather dangerous assumption to make. I mean, it only happens a very few times in the Bible, right?

    If there is a real "God" either we would know it, or if it remains hidden from us we have only our imagination to create what we are inspired to believe.
    Well, logically, one can certainly "infer" the existence of a prime mover. But there are all kinds of very dangerous hidden assumptions in that viewpoint - and besides, the physicists are telling us that linear time is an illusion anyway.

    People do not "imagine" spiritual experiences, it doesn't happen that way. Most often, people are Thunderstruck by them, they end up frightened and confused because they're so overwhelming. It's not like they just happened to dream across this thing, instead, It Came Upon them in such a powerful manner headed even subsumed the entirety of the reality they were experiencing at the time.

    This is a DIFFERENT thing, it's not simple imagination. If you were going to search through our psychology for anything similar, you might end up looking at things like ahyahuasca - where for some reason people always end up reporting Black Panthers. Never Elephants or chimpanzees or other human beings. The point being, it's that kind of a powerful experience. If you were a neuroscientist you would have to consider something like epilepsy, it's that level of power, neurally speaking. But then you also have to consider, that you're talking about Millions upon millions of people over thousands of years, so if you believe in the epilepsy explanation, you're saying half of humanity is having seizures.
    Last edited by nonsqtr; 09-13-2019 at 07:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsqtr View Post
    That is an assertion on your part.

    Actually more like a SWAG, probably.
    That's funny coming from a believer. Name an animal, other than humans, smart enough to create gods. Name an animal frightened enough of the future to need to create gods.
    Last edited by patrickt; 09-13-2019 at 06:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
    That's funny coming from a believer. Name an animal, other than humans, smart enough to create gods. Name an animal frightened enough of the future to need to create gods.
    I believe in God and I have no fright.
    What a shock when you discover that. I was eating in a restaurant and someone yelled that a bomb was planted in the building. Everyone about killed each other getting out. I finished my dinner.

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