# Stuff and Things > Guns and Self Defense >  WHY WE MUST DEFEND THE 2nd AMENDMENT!

## kk8

Here it is.  By far the best explanation I have read to explain to every person in this country...why we must defend *our right to bear arms*.

This will take a bit to read....but it is well worth it!  And should be sent to everyone you know.

*READ THE LETTER 1,100 GREEN BERETS SIGNED FOR PROTECTION OF THE 2ND AMENDMENT*The Special Operations Forces Report (SOFREP) called our attention to a 2,929-word letter signed by  more than 1,000 Green Berets in support of protecting the Second Amendment and explaining why all Americans should be concerned about doing so themselves.

Link to full letter below....

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/01/30/read-the-letter-1100-green-berets-signed-for-protection-of-the-2nd-amendment/

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## Trinnity

Because we've switched from ads to donations, we've changed the rule on "fair use". 

So, I'd like to reprint the eight reasons stated in that letter. Here it is:



> 1. First and foremost we support our Second Amendment right in  that “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a  free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be  infringed”.
> 
> 2. We support State and Local School Boards in their  efforts to establish security protocols in whatever manner and form that  they deem necessary and adequate. One of the great strengths of our  Republic is that State and Local governments can be creative in solving  problems. Things that work can be shared. Our point is that no one knows  what will work and there is no one single solution, so let’s allow the  State and Local governments with the input of the citizens to make the  decisions. Most recently the Cleburne Independent School District will  become the first district in North Texas to consider allowing some  teachers to carry concealed guns. We do not opine as to the  appropriateness of this decision, but we do support their right to make  this decision for themselves.
> 
> 3. We recommend that Assisted  Outpatient Treatment (AOT) laws be passed in every State. AOT is  formerly known as Involuntary Outpatient Commitment (IOC) and allows the  courts to order certain individuals with mental disorders to comply  with treatment while living in the community. In each of the mass  shooting incidents the perpetrator was mentally unstable. We also  believe that people who have been adjudicated as incompetent should be  simultaneously examined to determine whether they should be allowed the  right to retain/purchase firearms.
> 
> 4. We support the return of  firearm safety programs to schools along the lines of the successful  “Eddie the Eagle” program, which can be taught in schools by Peace  Officers or other trained professionals.
> 
> 5. Recent social  psychology research clearly indicates that there is a direct  relationship between gratuitously violent movies/video games and  desensitization to real violence and increased aggressive behavior  particularly in children and young adults (See Nicholas L. Carnagey, et  al. 2007. “The effect of video game violence on physiological  desensitization to real-life violence” and the references therein.  Journal of Experimental Social Psychology 43:489-496). Therefore, we  strongly recommend that gratuitous violence in movies and video games be  discouraged. War and war-like behavior should not be glorified.  Hollywood and video game producers are exploiting something they know  nothing about. General Sherman famously said “War is Hell!” Leave war to  the Professionals. War is not a game and should not be “sold” as  entertainment to our children.
> ...


I hope you read that. ^

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## kk8

> Because we've switched from ads to donations, we've changed the rule on "fair use". 
> 
> So, I'd like to reprint the eight reasons stated in that letter. Here it is:
> I hope you read that. ^


Thanks for letting me know that Trinn...and YES of course!  I read the entire thing!  It is brilliant.

I answered you "reply with quote" just so I could post the 8 reasons again... :Wink:

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## Trinnity

> Thanks for letting me know that Trinn...and YES of course!  I read the entire thing!  It is brilliant.
> 
> I answered you "reply with quote" just so I could post the 8 reasons again...


Unfortunately in this case, that feature reposts MY quote, but not the one I quoted.

And I would also like to say- these guys are well informed and qualified to speak on the topic.

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kk8 (01-30-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

I support the second amendment, but I think the current fight over it is sickening. The same people in an uproar about the government finally coming after the second were silent or at the very least passive when the government destroyed all our other rights. The whole point of the second amendment is for us to be able to use it to defend the first, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth amendments. But we didn't. We failed. Now they come for our precious guns, and NOW we fight? 

It's too late for that.

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## kk8

> I support the second amendment, but I think the current fight over it is sickening. The same people in an uproar about the government finally coming after the second were silent or at the very least passive when the government destroyed all our other rights. The whole point of the second amendment is for us to be able to use it to defend the first, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth amendments. But we didn't. We failed. Now they come for our precious guns, and NOW we fight? 
> 
> It's too late for that.





> The same people in an uproar about the government finally coming after the second were silent or at the very least passive when the government destroyed all our other rights


Really?  Give us an example of when WE were silent...thanks

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## Guest

> I support the second amendment, but I think the current fight over it is sickening. The same people in an uproar about the government finally coming after the second were silent or at the very least passive when the government destroyed all our other rights. The whole point of the second amendment is for us to be able to use it to defend the first, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth amendments. But we didn't. We failed. Now they come for our precious guns, and NOW we fight? 
> 
> It's too late for that.



I agree...for ten years--that's BEFORE Obama, we've been bleeding rights, just bleeding them and no one gave enough of a shit to vote these fuckers out.  Now, at the last people care about the 2nd.  When you let the others go, then you've lost the ability to full defend that right.

...but, we gotta keep trying.

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St James (01-31-2013)

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## Guest

> Really?  Give us an example of when WE were silent...thanks


So, when the Bush administration and the 2001-8 Congresses kept voting for the Patriot Act and wrote the EO's detailing where and how you could protest the war in Iraq...did you stay home and not vote Republican, did you vote third party, or did you vote in the same guys who robbed you of those rights and then just complained about them to your spouse?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Really?  Give us an example of when WE were silent...thanks


See Rina's post.

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## kk8

> So, when the Bush administration and the 2001-8 Congresses kept voting for the Patriot Act and wrote the EO's detailing where and how you could protest the war in Iraq...did you stay home and not vote Republican, did you vote third party, or did you vote in the same guys who robbed you of those rights and then just complained about them to your spouse?


Ohhhh Puleeeease!  I knew you were going to say the Patriot Act....I knew it!

The Patriot Act was started with good intentions...wasn't it?  Gee...even Ron Paul wrote that very line himself...you should know that Rina.

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## kk8

> See Rina's post.


Seen it answered it.  Give me another one...can you?  No.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Ohhhh Puleeeease!  I knew you were going to say the Patriot Act....I knew it!
> 
> The Patriot Act was started with good intentions...wasn't it?  Gee...even Ron Paul wrote that very line himself...you should know that Rina.


Saying it started with good intentions is not the same as saying it's good legislation. Hitler did what he did because he wanted to make Germany great again and punish the people he felt were responsible for her collapse. Good intentions don't justify terrible actions.

You want another? How about the NDAA? It was actually mostly Democrats that voted for the amendment striking indefinite detention. But 99% of Republicans in both chambers of Congress voted for the bill and agaibst the amendment. To this day, very few members of Congress stand with Rand Paul in opposition to giving the President - yes, your Republicans gave this to _Obama_ - the power to use the military to arrest and indefinitely detain American citizens without a trial.

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## Guest

> Ohhhh Puleeeease!  I knew you were going to say the Patriot Act....I knew it!


Do not give me that garbage like it was not the destruction of our 4th amendment rights.  I will declare you completely silly if you feel that it was somehow "okay" or that it is a trite argument.  You lost the right to be secure in your own home and in your body person, probably forever.

Sorry that means nothing to you.




> The Patriot Act was started with good intentions...wasn't it?  Gee...even Ron Paul wrote that very line himself...you should know that Rina.


It was not started with good intentions.  They tried to push it through under a different name in the 1990s and I don't care if George Washington wrote a line in it, no one has a right to sneak into your home without warrant and you NEVER know about it.

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## Guest

> Seen it answered it.  Give me another one...can you?  No.


No, you created a straw man argument out of it and none of us here are that poor of debaters that we find that acceptable.

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## The XL

> Ohhhh Puleeeease!  I knew you were going to say the Patriot Act....I knew it!
> 
> The Patriot Act was started with good intentions...wasn't it?  Gee...even Ron Paul wrote that very line himself...you should know that Rina.


So, the obliteration of the 4th Amendment is okay because you think it had good intentions?

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## kk8

> Do not give me that garbage like it was not the destruction of our 4th amendment rights.  I will declare you completely silly if you feel that it was somehow "okay" or that it is a trite argument.  You lost the right to be secure in your own home and in your body person, probably forever.
> 
> Sorry that means nothing to you.
> 
> 
> 
> It was not started with good intentions.  They tried to push it through under a different name in the 1990s and I don't care if George Washington wrote a line in it, no one has a right to sneak into your home without warrant and you NEVER know about it.


What the heck are you and Thinker talking about?  When did I say I was for the Patriot Act?  What STRAW MAN?  You two just LOVE to gang up on people together don't you?  And right now neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about when it comes to me....You are assuming something that I never even said....enjoying yourselves?

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## kk8

> So, the obliteration of the 4th Amendment is okay because you think it had good intentions?



Ahhh yeah....never said it's okay.  You are reading something that other people said that I said....which I didn't.  Do I think it was started with good intentions?  Yes.  Did it get out of control?  Yes.

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## kk8

> No, you created a straw man argument out of it and none of us here are that poor of debaters that we find that acceptable.


What STRAW MAN?  You don't find what acceptable?  Haha

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> What the heck are you and Thinker talking about?  When did I say I was for the Patriot Act?  What STRAW MAN?  You two just LOVE to gang up on people together don't you?  And right now neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about when it comes to me....You are assuming something that I never even said....enjoying yourselves?


Where did I say you supported the PATRIOT Act?

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## The XL

> Ahhh yeah....never said it's okay.  You are reading something that other people said that I said....which I didn't.  Do I think it was started with good intentions?  Yes.  Did it get out of control?  Yes.


So you agree that Republicans are also guilty for destroying our rights, and Republican constituents enabled it, and some even cheered it on?

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## Guest

> What the heck are you and Thinker talking about?  When did I say I was for the Patriot Act?  What STRAW MAN?  You two just LOVE to gang up on people together don't you?  And right now neither one of you has any idea what you are talking about when it comes to me....You are assuming something that I never even said....enjoying yourselves?


Did you read your own post before you hit "Post Quick Reply"?  You said "Ohhh puhhhleeeeease" as if that whole "4th amendment" thing was just a joke.  If it was a serious issue to you, you would not have phrased it so dismissively.

It is absolutely serious business.  The right to have your home as your castle has predated even the formation of the colonies.  We inherited that right from common law and now it can be obliterated at will.  There are no safeguards.  How much do you trust government and the police to not plant things in your home while they are there without your knowledge?

The right to protest near foreign dignitaries...you realize that's gone, too, right?

Due process--gone.  Just label someone a threat and you can remove their right to it.

I could go on and on and on.

Tell me...what did you do about the Patriot Act?  You say you hate it.  What did you DO about it?

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## Guest

> What STRAW MAN?  You don't find what acceptable?  Haha


Instead of addressing the question asked of you, ie "what did you do about the Patriot Act", you decided to deflect to the myth that Ron Paul wrote a piece of the act.  You wanted me to defend Ron Paul or defend the Patriot Act or blahbitty blah.  Whatever.  I don't worship Ron Paul.  If he wrote something destroying the 4th amendment I would call him an asshole.  As it is, he voted against it, so if he did write a sentence--which I doubt because I just looked it up to be sure-- wouldn't matter since he actively campaigned against it.

The question was put to you: what did you personally do about the Patriot Act?

Did you:

1. Write your Senators and Congressmen?
2. Call them?
3. Tell someone that you think it sucks?

What?

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## The XL

Oh shit, Rina laying the smackdown.  I eagerly await Mr. kk8s response.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-30-2013),St James (01-31-2013)

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## kk8

> Did you read your own post before you hit "Post Quick Reply"?  You said "Ohhh puhhhleeeeease" as if that whole "4th amendment" thing was just a joke.  If it was a serious issue to you, you would not have phrased it so dismissively.
> 
> It is absolutely serious business.  The right to have your home as your castle has predated even the formation of the colonies.  We inherited that right from common law and now it can be obliterated at will.  There are no safeguards.  How much do you trust government and the police to not plant things in your home while they are there without your knowledge?
> 
> The right to protest near foreign dignitaries...you realize that's gone, too, right?
> 
> Due process--gone.  Just label someone a threat and you can remove their right to it.
> 
> I could go on and on and on.
> ...





> I could go on and on and on


Obviously.





> as if that whole "4th amendment" thing was just a joke


What?!  See there you go projecting nonsense again.  As if I would ever think our right's were a joke, wtf?
No Rina...the "Oh Puleeease" was about the fact that I knew that was the ONLY thing everyone was going to have to say.  I didn't say that "I hate it" either, did I?  And "do anything about it?"  Like what?  Protest?  LOL.  I haven't protested this president either.  I do however write my congressman. 

I have no idea why you even care what I do.  It's because I am pissed off about the 2nd Amendment, why is this bothering you?  Its because you don't have any idea what I did about other rights being sucked from us?  Why?  As if I'm ok with ANY of our rights being taken away....no matter who the president is.  What is your problem anyway?  This is actually pretty bizarre.  I have no idea how or why I have gotten into this with you.

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## kk8

> Oh shit, Rina laying the smackdown.  I eagerly await Mr. kk8s response.



Oh cool....you jumped on this bullshit wagon too?  Wtf is going on?  As far as I can tell we are all on the same side of both these issues....you three are being ridiculous.  Acting like bullies for absolutely no reason....I'm out.  Enjoy yourselves.

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## kk8

> Instead of addressing the question asked of you, ie "what did you do about the Patriot Act", you decided to deflect to the myth that Ron Paul wrote a piece of the act.  You wanted me to defend Ron Paul or defend the Patriot Act or blahbitty blah.  Whatever.  I don't worship Ron Paul.  If he wrote something destroying the 4th amendment I would call him an asshole.  As it is, he voted against it, so if he did write a sentence--which I doubt because I just looked it up to be sure-- wouldn't matter since he actively campaigned against it.
> 
> The question was put to you: what did you personally do about the Patriot Act?
> 
> Did you:
> 
> 1. Write your Senators and Congressmen?
> 2. Call them?
> 3. Tell someone that you think it sucks?
> ...


Wow Rina...it was a joke.  I'm convinced now that you have zero sense of humor.  

Yes
No
Yes


HAPPY?  

I never even said that Ron Paul wasn't against the Patriot Act.  I said he admits that it was started with good intentions (TO KEEP US SAFE)...which it was, and which is how I feel.  It got completely out of control...as everything that comes from our government does.

And contrary to what ever the hell you are making up in your head about me now.  I complained a lot about Bush in his last two years.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Oh cool....you jumped on this bullshit wagon too?  Wtf is going on?  As far as I can tell we are all on the same side of both these issues....you three are being ridiculous.  Acting like bullies for absolutely no reason....I'm out.  Enjoy yourselves.


Bullies? Don't be ridiculous. All I've done is tell you you're wrong. But if you want to talk about bullies, we can look back on your past responses to me.

Me personally, I'd much rather you just answer my post about the NDAA, that you asked for.

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## kk8

> Saying it started with good intentions is not the same as saying it's good legislation. Hitler did what he did because he wanted to make Germany great again and punish the people he felt were responsible for her collapse. Good intentions don't justify terrible actions.
> 
> You want another? How about the NDAA? It was actually mostly Democrats that voted for the amendment striking indefinite detention. But 99% of Republicans in both chambers of Congress voted for the bill and agaibst the amendment. To this day, very few members of Congress stand with Rand Paul in opposition to giving the President - yes, your Republicans gave this to _Obama_ - the power to use the military to arrest and indefinitely detain American citizens without a trial.


The NDAA which started under Bush and was continued under Obama.  Was not GIVEN to the Obama by the Republicans.  The Democrats are just as much to blame for this Act as Republicans.  I was against it from the start and still am today.  However, I again understood the plan in the beginning when investigations were on going to find what Americans (if any) had cooperated in 911, our elected officials seem to take everything too far.  As with most this policy has gotten worse from it's inception.  My understanding is that since 2009 even tighter restrictions have been put in place for the release of detainees...correct?

Why would I support this bill?  What American citizen would?

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## kk8

> Bullies? Don't be ridiculous. All I've done is tell you you're wrong. But if you want to talk about bullies, we can look back on your past responses to me.
> 
> Me personally, I'd much rather you just answer my post about the NDAA, that you asked for.


Told me I was wrong about what?

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## Guest

> Obviously.


Yes, obviously.




> What?!  See there you go projecting nonsense again.  As if I would ever think our right's were a joke, wtf?
> No Rina...the "Oh Puleeease" was about the fact that I knew that was the ONLY thing everyone was going to have to say.  I didn't say that "I hate it" either, did I?  And "do anything about it?"  Like what?  Protest?  LOL.  I haven't protested this president either.  I do however write my congressman.


So if a sweeping gun bill passes--something you seem to care about more than the 4th amendment and your Republican Congressmen vote for it...what will you do at the next election?

To me, all you partisans on either side of the aisle are like those permissive parents who will never punish their kids but talk sternly to them and still buy them shit and let them out of their punishment at the last minute. 

The ONLY way to show displeasure is to vote against someone who is not doing what you want them to do.  All the "I don't like that you did that" in the world won't teach them a lesson.  The abuser will continue to abuse until the victim kicks him out.




> I have no idea why you even care what I do.  It's because I am pissed off about the 2nd Amendment, why is this bothering you?  Its because you don't have any idea what I did about other rights being sucked from us?  Why?  As if I'm ok with ANY of our rights being taken away....no matter who the president is.  What is your problem anyway?  This is actually pretty bizarre.  I have no idea how or why I have gotten into this with you.


That makes two of us.

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## kk8

> Yes, obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> So if a sweeping gun bill passes--something you seem to care about more than the 4th amendment and your Republican Congressmen vote for it...what will you do at the next election?
> 
> To me, all you partisans on either side of the aisle are like those permissive parents who will never punish their kids but talk sternly to them and still buy them shit and let them out of their punishment at the last minute. 
> 
> The ONLY way to show displeasure is to vote against someone who is not doing what you want them to do.  All the "I don't like that you did that" in the world won't teach them a lesson.  The abuser will continue to abuse until the victim kicks him out.
> ...





> something you seem to care about more than the 4th amendment


Who says?  You?




> all you partisans


Still jumping to conclusions about me I see.  The rest of the sentence was completely unnecessary and false...as you have no idea what kind of parent I am either.




> The ONLY way to show displeasure is to vote against someone who is not doing what you want them to do


Are you assuming that I don't know that?  Are you assuming that I haven't done just that?

So why is it that you think you are "schooling" me on something here?  And why is it that you still don't understand that we are on the same side when it comes to defending our rights (PLURAL)?  Honestly, I still have no idea why you are going off on me.

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## Guest

> Who says?  You?


Sure.  The word "seem" implies that I am judging by your posts that you appear to care more about this issue.  I didn't say that you necessarily _did_, just that you seem to.




> Still jumping to conclusions about me I see.  The rest of the sentence was completely unnecessary and false...as you have no idea what kind of parent I am either.


It was an analogy.




> Are you assuming that I don't know that?  Are you assuming that I haven't done just that?


I am assuming that you have only voted Republicans in even when they did things that displeased you, yes.




> So why is it that you think you are "schooling" me on something here?  And why is it that you still don't understand that we are on the same side when it comes to defending our rights (PLURAL)?  Honestly, I still have no idea why you are going off on me.


I am not going "off" on you.  This was an organic flow of heated conversation.  If we are on the same side, let us mentally shake hands and be done with this.  I'm Polish/Russian by birth.  My stoic mother did not raise me to be overly prone to warmth, and when having serious discussions I tend to be serious.  

I have no idea why I am well-liked give that my personality is anathema to the jovial spirit of Americans.  Opposites attract, I guess.

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## Coolwalker

All of congress are our servants. Treat them as such.

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## kk8

> Sure.  The word "seem" implies that I am judging by your posts that you appear to care more about this issue.  I didn't say that you necessarily _did_, just that you seem to.
> 
> 
> 
> It was an analogy.
> 
> 
> 
> I am assuming that you have only voted Republicans in even when they did things that displeased you, yes.
> ...





> I am judging by your posts that you appear to care more about this issue.


Really?  Show me.




> It was an analogy.


And you reached this conclusion...how?




> I am assuming that you have only voted Republicans


See...this is where I am not following.  Why pray tell would you assume this?  Your assumption would be incorrect.  I happen to have just voted for a democrat as my county official last election.

Yes we are on the same side as far as every single one of our Constitutional rights being defended.  And I will "shake" on the that.

I was raised by a strict baptist mother (but a very loving person), and a complete asshole South Philly Italian Air Force Sergeant step-father.  I was raised tough, because I had to be....I have fought for everything I have, and it has been a hell of a fight.  If we sat down and had a glass of wine together, we would find we are probably more alike than this "group" you have somehow put me into.

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## Guest

@kk8

I said the same to Polly.  How people post--especially when I am in "work mode" is not indicative of who we are in general...I am very different over a shot of vodka or a glass of wine.

Oh, who am I kidding...put a tub of buttered popcorn in me and I am giddy.

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kk8 (01-31-2013)

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## kk8

> @kk8
> 
> I said the same to Polly.  How people post--especially when I am in "work mode" is not indicative of who we are in general...I am very different over a shot of vodka or a glass of wine.
> 
> Oh, who am I kidding...put a tub of buttered popcorn in me and I am giddy.





> I said the same to Polly


Haha....I know, I was wondering if you would pick up on that?  I thanked that posted of yours.

Things that make me giddy...Kettle One Dirty Martini's and Girl Scout Thin Mint cookies....lol

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## Guest

> Haha....I know, I was wondering if you would pick up on that?  I thanked that posted of yours.
> 
> Things that make me giddy...Kettle One Dirty Martini's and Girl Scout Thin Mint cookies....lol



I love a dirty martini --extra dirty.

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## kk8

> i love a dirty martini --extra dirty.


omg!  Yes!

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> The NDAA which started under Bush and was continued under Obama.  Was not GIVEN to the Obama by the Republicans.  The Democrats are just as much to blame for this Act as Republicans.  I was against it from the start and still am today.  However, I again understood the plan in the beginning when investigations were on going to find what Americans (if any) had cooperated in 911, our elected officials seem to take everything too far.  As with most this policy has gotten worse from it's inception.  My understanding is that since 2009 even tighter restrictions have been put in place for the release of detainees...correct?
> 
> Why would I support this bill?  What American citizen would?


The issue isn't whether you support it or not.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Told me I was wrong about what?


Well, a lot.

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## kk8

> Well, a lot.


No you haven't

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> All of congress are our servants. Treat them as such.


By doing what?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> No you haven't


Really? Not once in this thread have I told you "you're wrong"?

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## kk8

> Really? Not once in this thread have I told you "you're wrong"?


Me personally?  Don't think so....no.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Me personally?  Don't think so....no.


Hm. Oh well. 

Anyway, I wanted to make a proposition.

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kk8 (01-31-2013)

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## Dan40

> See Rina's post.


Do neither of you know anything about the massive number of rights restricted, disallowed, during WWII?  The reason was an even greater outside threat.  Food rationing, gas rationing, price fixing, travel restrictions and much more.

  When that threat was defeated, the rights were restored.  Our present outside threat is probably even worse and will be more long lasting and our ability to fight it is a mere shadow of what it once was due to criminals being awarded more rights than victims.  When and IF we defeat the present insane mob of killers, rights will be restored, or there will be hell to pay.

Not that today's politicians will ever let a crisis go unexploited.

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## Trinnity

We weren't silent, we were ignored.

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kk8 (01-31-2013)

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## The XL

> Do neither of you know anything about the massive number of rights restricted, disallowed, during WWII?  The reason was an even greater outside threat.  Food rationing, gas rationing, price fixing, travel restrictions and much more.
> 
>   When that threat was defeated, the rights were restored.*  Our present outside threat is probably even worse* and will be more long lasting and our ability to fight it is a mere shadow of what it once was due to criminals being awarded more rights than victims.  When and IF we defeat the present insane mob of killers, rights will be restored, or there will be hell to pay.
> 
> Not that today's politicians will ever let a crisis go unexploited.




Ridiculous.  Just absolutley ridiculous

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## The XL

The US government and its special interest masters are likely quite happy to know that they can fabricate or unnecessarily start or exacerbate conflicts to take our rights away, and there will be a big percentage of the population that not only will not only stand by and do nothing, but defend it.

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## Guest

> We weren't silent, we were ignored.


What do you think the Republican party would have done if people had called them (or the Dems by their constituents) and said we're going to vote you out of office for going along with that and then actually did it?

Do you think they would have next election cycle put up people who would still vote to renew the Patriot Act?

Voting is the only message we can send them.  Like us or not, by not voting for Mitt Romney we made a lot of people angry, but...Republicans are now wondering...what the hell went wrong.  They wouldn't have tried to rethink and regroup if he had won.  You'd get RINO's galore in office.

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## The XL

Like Rina said, if Republicans gave fuck all about the Constitution, they wouldn't have kept voting the same bums in.

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## Guest

Democraps, too.  They were all against the Patriot Act until their guy wants to use it.  When I would say to people, "How can you vote him in again when you don't agree at all with anything he's done?"  I get: "Lesser of two evils".

The country is under a spell.  They believe that by complaining but voting like you've always voted that things will change; that the politicians will care that you complained.  There is no compulsion to change if you know you have the person's vote regardless.

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The XL (01-31-2013)

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## The XL

Yep, the way to combat big government tyranny is to vote for big government tyranny.  Right Republicans?

What is this I don't even.

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## St James

> Democraps, too.  They were all against the Patriot Act until their guy wants to use it.  When I would say to people, "How can you vote him in again when you don't agree at all with anything he's done?"  I get: "Lesser of two evils".
> 
> The country is under a spell.  They believe that by complaining but voting like you've always voted that things will change; that the politicians will care that you complained.  There is no compulsion to change if you know you have the person's vote regardless.


The schools tried to teach my kids that voting  was the same as a revolution. Like I said.......tried. They didn't figure on me. My presence was requested at the school for this, and just out of curiousity I went. After the ass chewing I gave *them*, they never ever called me back about anything, ever. I owned those mother fuckers......gave four Fort Wayne Community School administrators a brief but harsh history lesson.

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## Guest

> The schools tried to teach my kids that voting  was the same as a revolution. Like I said.......tried. They didn't figure on me. My presence was requested at the school for this, and just out of curiousity I went. After the ass chewing I gave *them*, they never ever called me back about anything, ever. I owned those mother fuckers......gave four Fort Wayne Community School administrators a brief but harsh history lesson.


No, revolution is revolution, but when you vote the same every time regardless of job performance then there is no incentive to perform well.  Odd that capitalists don't get this.

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