# Politics and News > Rants, Opinions, Observations >  You Beat Up On Unions Ya Aint Never Had A Union Job You JEALOUS

## Karl

Somehow the working man has become despised in steel mills of Chicago and auto plants in Detroit the 1920's / 1930's workers unified and told the robber barrons FUCK YOU we ain't working for 2/3 dollars per day and much violent bloodshed and violence and death ensued until plant owners finally caved and recognized the workers rights to COLLECTIVELY BARGAIN

This common agreement held nearly 50 years until the early 1980's

Eighties Unions became villified called crooks even extortionists

And stupid rednecks followed along

Well here we are 30 years later hope you enjoy working for $11 an hour at current prices heck in 1986 at Milwaukee Iron Works I made $18 or $36 an hour 1986 dollar spending power

----------

lostbeyond (04-13-2013)

----------


## Karl

But no I'm a rugged individualist I don't need no stinking unionI vote Republican who OFFSHORED OUR MANUFACTURING BASE or jobs for COMMON PEOPLEWhat's left pays SQUAT can't even hardly pay rent keep a 10 year old beater on the roadBut in late 80's a young man barely out of High Scholl willing to sweat and work his ass off paid a moetgage and a new car in the drivewayTry just TRY to do that TODAY

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

Personally, I think the criticism of unions is way overblown and very selective. Some will hear a story of one union or one union member doing sonething stupid and use that to tar all unions as bad. In the 1920s they were ultimately unsuccessful at turning the people against the unions by throwing the words "communism" and "socialism" at them. Now, they are unfortunately succeeding with their new tactic.

----------



----------


## Calypso Jones

what does your union do for you? They use the state to collect your dues and you don't even know what these lyin'union bastards are stealing from you. But by God they get their cut first. If you're republican/conservative, too bad, they're gonna give their money to the stinkin' democrats. Where's that money go? To get you a raise? Ask a firefighter when their last raise was and how much. But their chiefs and higher ups are raking in the cash and double dippin' on top of it. Meanwhile, anything that the company or the union does for you, chump, they're doin for the non-union employee. Not that the non-union employee is not putting up with almost daily harrassment cause they won't put their little bit in the pot so that the big union wigs can rake in somewhere around a half mill a year. And you think your union is workin' for you and will help you against the company if necessary. lolol

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Personally, I think the criticism of unions is way overblown and very selective. Some will hear a story of one union or one union member doing sonething stupid and use that to tar all unions as bad. In the 1920s they were ultimately unsuccessful at turning the people against the unions by throwing the words "communism" and "socialism" at them. Now, they are unfortunately succeeding with their new tactic.



it's not 'one' union member and these are not isolated incidents.   Majority of the time, the media will not tell you what these criminals are doing to regular people.  Unions may have once had a place in this world, but they don't anymore. They've become like the left, like the nobel peace prize committee.  They're corrupt.  They are greedy and they are agenda driven. They are anti-american...i mean they despise non-union, tax paying americans.   They would starve us to death to give them a raise to sit on their big fat behinds.    They would starve their mothers and little children for their political agenda and their own fortunes.   The sooner they die off the better.

----------


## countryboy

> Personally, I think the criticism of unions is way overblown and very selective. Some will hear a story of one union or one union member doing sonething stupid and use that to tar all unions as bad. In the 1920s they were ultimately unsuccessful at turning the people against the unions by throwing the words "communism" and "socialism" at them. Now, they are unfortunately succeeding with their new tactic.


You are aware that actual commies are big union supporters, right? 

How's the NEA working out for public education in this country? Great eh? 

Unions, especially the public sector variety, have grown so corrupt and unsustainable, they've long since outlived their usefulness.

Is a nice Ford pick up truck really worth fifty, sixty thousand dollars? Ummmm.....no.

----------

birddog (04-13-2013)

----------


## littlejohn

> Eighties Unions became villified called crooks even extortionists
> 
> And stupid rednecks followed along


What ? Rednecks working in a plant in Detroit Michigan ? I seriously doubt that. 
figure some shit out dude. likely they were some flavor of yankee-doodle city boys, a redneck wouldn't have a job like that.
They might have in the 1920's.... (migrated to city due to farm failures, starvation, etc.) but highly improbable in 1980.

----------


## Karl

> what does your union do for you? They use the state to collect your dues and you don't even know what these lyin'union bastards are stealing from you. But by God they get their cut first. If you're republican/conservative, too bad, they're gonna give their money to the stinkin' democrats. Where's that money go? To get you a raise? Ask a firefighter when their last raise was and how much. But their chiefs and higher ups are raking in the cash and double dippin' on top of it. Meanwhile, anything that the company or the union does for you, chump, they're doin for the non-union employee. Not that the non-union employee is not putting up with almost daily harrassment cause they won't put their little bit in the pot so that the big union wigs can rake in somewhere around a half mill a year. And you think 
> your union is workin' for you and will help you against the company if necessary. lolol


Today I run loading docks for a small paper company in Channahan Illinois I make $11 an hour I live in a rundown trailer park and drive a 2001 ford taurus I am gonna be 50 barely scratching and surviving NO FUTURE

1987 I was a punk ass 25 year old but I got in at the foundry

Modest small ranch house on the southside of Milwaukee Wisconsin I paid a mortgage selling price back then was 56 grand new Camaro in my driveway I made $18 an hour at the iron works adjust for inflation like making $36 an hour today

Do ya follow me?

----------


## countryboy

> Today I run loading docks for a small paper company in Channahan Illinois I make $11 an hour I live in a rundown trailer park and drive a 2001 ford taurus I am gonna be 50 barely scratching and surviving NO FUTURE
> 
> 1987 I was a punk ass 25 year old but I got in at the foundry
> 
> Modest small ranch house on the southside of Milwaukee Wisconsin I paid a mortgage selling price back then was 56 grand new Camaro in my driveway I made $18 an hour at the iron works adjust for inflation like making $36 an hour today
> 
> Do ya follow me?


No, I don't follow you. What's your point?

----------


## Karl

> No, I don't follow you. What's your point?


I got a fucking point pal I stated it CLEAR

2013 NO OPPORTUNITY 

Work.hard and FUCK YOURSELF

----------

kilgram (04-14-2013)

----------


## Karl

UNITED WE STAND

DIVIDED WE FALL

Ya in or out otherwise don't waste my time

----------


## countryboy

> I got a fucking point pal I stated it CLEAR
> 
> 2013 NO OPPORTUNITY 
> 
> Work.hard and FUCK YOURSELF


Still not following you. Are you saying it's someone else's fault you make $11 an hour? Didn't your great union teach you some useful skills? Why don't you utilize them?

----------


## lostbeyond

This is an absolutely great thread Santa, it is also overdue in today's world.  Last summer I was allowed to write software (summer job) for a large French company that was unionized.  It is true that there is nothing that can protect your interest more than your colleagues, AND although I had no rights to have anything to do with the union, I had all my lunch breaks with them, and the union guys and the union rep were the nicest and friendliest folks in the bunch.  

So I must say, that without the union, you are not human, you are only a machine, that the shareholders/CEO/CFO operate through the hammers of the corporate management hierarchy. 

But, specifically in the USA, there has never been a legislative and cultural climate that would have protected the American Unions from getting taken over by organized crime.  The USA has the "everyone for himself" tradition, which, in contrast to Europe, undermines the very philosopy of any union. 

So, in the 70's, American Unions lost their strike law privileges in Washington.  If you can't strike, you can't enforce your bid.  

Then in the 80's the unions refused to roll with the times and expand across the borders like corporations did.  

Now as a result, every Asian/Latin-American worker is effectively anti-union when they and their masters push their local government to devalue their local currency and make the American Union workers priced out of the market.  This is why US Unions are dying.  If it was only corporate authored laws, it would be easy to turn around.  

It is indeed a great shame that the unions died in the 70's.  

I speculate, that in today's environment, where the variety of job titles is much higher than in the 70's, and team sizes are a lot lower, a modern union should be less specific about professional specifics, and more specific about individual worker net worth. 

Plus a modern union should realize the obliterating power of current anti-local-economy national legislations.

----------


## Karl

> What ? Rednecks working in a plant in Detroit Michigan ? I seriously doubt that. 
> figure some shit out dude. likely they were some flavor of yankee-doodle city boys, a redneck wouldn't have a job like that.
> They might have in the 1920's.... (migrated to city due to farm failures, starvation, etc.) but highly improbable in 1980.


Call me YANKEE DOODLE

Let me tell you something pal

UPPER MIDWEST USA where the assembly line and modern industry as we know it today

Sure winters suck never stopped us hearty Midwestern Souls from melting Steel amd building cars

I ain't no goddamn yankee either

MIDWEST the RUSTBELT pal

----------


## DDave

The manufacturing base went offshore primarily because a bunch of over zealous union negotiators drove up the cost of labor to the point where products made in America were so damned expensive that people didn't want to or couldn't afford to buy them.

And you can bet your ass that given the choice between a more costly Made in America item or the cheaper alternative, the cost conscious UNION WORKER would ALSO opt for the cheaper alternative since the money was coming out of their pocket.

Instead of costing $599, would you pay $799 for a 32GB  iPad with WiFi made in America?  If you can honestly answer yes, then God bless you and your support for American jobs.  If you're answer is no, then don't bitch about the plight of unions since their leadership did it to the working man.

And public sector unions . . . Good Lord . . . most of them don't care if their state files for bankruptcy as long as THEY get paid.

I said most, not all.  Every once in awhile you come across one that has fairly reasonable and realistic leadership.  I am a member of the California School Employees Association.  Our local leadership is pretty reasonable and from what I have seen, so is the state leadership.

----------

Network (04-14-2013)

----------


## Guest

> What ? Rednecks working in a plant in Detroit Michigan ? I seriously doubt that. 
> figure some shit out dude. likely they were some flavor of yankee-doodle city boys, a redneck wouldn't have a job like that.
> They might have in the 1920's.... (migrated to city due to farm failures, starvation, etc.) but highly improbable in 1980.


Then you've never lived in Michigan.  It's the redneckiest state in the entire union once you travel north from Detroit.  Lots of satanists, too.  No joke.

I think that union hate is seeded by big business and I think business hate is seeded by the leftists.  Not all unions are bad, not all unions are good.  Not all businesses are bad, not all businesses are good.

Neither unions nor businesses have their counterpart's interests in mind, they have their own.  The union busting laws were wrong, but they lobbied Congress no differently than Monsanto lobbied Congress to weasel out of any future liability for poisoning us all to death.

If you are going to look at behavior, then look at everyone's behavior.  Yes, there IS anti-union propaganda just like there IS anti-business propaganda.  I get this because I don't like to live in an echo chamber.  I'll argue with @kilgram about the evils of redistribution and why my neighbors who own 3 restaurants deserve the lion's share of the money, but I'll also argue with any one of you that unions exist because big businesses could give two shits about their employees and would have them starve or lose their jobs to earn profits--that's the nature of business.  Anyone who tells you otherwise either never owned a business or couldn't figure out why theirs was failing.

If you're going to look at the ruthless policies of unions, also look at the ruthless policies of Wal-mart.

----------

kilgram (04-14-2013)

----------


## Guest

> The manufacturing base went offshore primarily because a bunch of over zealous union negotiators drove up the cost of labor to the point where products made in America were so damned expensive that people didn't want to or couldn't afford to buy them.


No.  Manufacturing went offshore because of our minimum wage laws.  We cannot compete with the $00.85 to $2.00 an hour labor rates of China or the $1.25 labor rates of India.

Let's not kid ourselves.

----------

kilgram (04-14-2013)

----------


## countryboy

> No.  Manufacturing went offshore because of our minimum wage laws.  We cannot compete with the $00.85 to $2.00 an hour labor rates of China or the $1.25 labor rates of India.
> 
> Let's not kid ourselves.


You realize union contracts are often tied to minimum wage rates, right?

----------


## Guest

> You realize union contracts are often tied to minimum wage rates, right?


Minimum wage is set by the government.  Union contracts are negotiated by union representatives.  I know very few unions that would accept minimum wage.

----------


## countryboy

> Minimum wage is set by the government.  Union contracts are negotiated by union representatives.  I know very few unions that would accept minimum wage.


Of course they wouldn't, that's not my point. Why do you think unions are such ardent supporters of raising the minimum wage? Because their contracts are often tied to the minimum wage. Minimum wage goes up, so does their bloated unsustainable wage.

----------


## Karl

> No.  Manufacturing went offshore because of our minimum wage laws.  We cannot compete with the $00.85 to $2.00 an hour labor rates of China or the $1.25 labor rates of India.
> 
> Let's not kid ourselves.


 @Rina_Dragonborn

Doesn't mean we should seems heavy manufacturing existed many generations with family supporting wages.

We had our chance in the 1970's to stop Japanese cars but we blew it

$2.00 an hour do you honestly think you can live.anywhere in America on that

----------


## countryboy

> $2.00 an hour do you honestly think you can live.anywhere in America on that


And do you honestly believe if minimum wage laws were abolished, *anyone* would be working for $2.00 an hour?

----------


## Karl

> Of course they wouldn't, that's not my point. Why do you think unions are such ardent supporters of raising the minimum wage? Because their contracts are often tied to the minimum wage. Minimum wage goes up, so does their bloated unsustainable wage.


Good lets offshore everything then you can bitch about all those welfare parasites and call them lazy when infact you shipped their jobs away

----------


## Karl

> And do you honestly believe if minimum wage laws were abolished, *anyone* would be working for $2.00 an hour?


Oh divert well someplace would try or take 8 down to 4

No thanks I want a guarantee better yet a powerful union backing me to get a living wage

----------


## countryboy

> Good lets offshore everything then you can bitch about all those welfare parasites and call them lazy when infact you shipped their jobs away


I didn't ship a single job away. Get a grip. Known fact, raising the minimum wage reduces the number of jobs available.

----------


## countryboy

> Oh divert well someplace would try or take 8 down to 4
> 
> No thanks I want a guarantee better yet a powerful union backing me to get a living wage


Punctuation is your friend. 

How successful do you think a business would be with a $4 an hour work force?

----------


## Guest

> @Rina_Dragonborn
> 
> Doesn't mean we should seems heavy manufacturing existed many generations with family supporting wages.
> 
> We had our chance in the 1970's to stop Japanese cars but we blew it
> 
> $2.00 an hour do you honestly think you can live.anywhere in America on that


Because of our federal reserves system driving up the COI with crazy inflation...no.

----------


## Guest

> And do you honestly believe if minimum wage laws were abolished, *anyone* would be working for $2.00 an hour?


Illegal immigrants do it every day.

----------


## countryboy

> Illegal immigrants do it every day.


Not my fault, they shouldn't be working in my country at all. Especially when so many Americans can't find work.

BTW, I think you mean, illegal ALIENS.  :Wink:

----------


## zelmo1234

> Today I run loading docks for a small paper company in Channahan Illinois I make $11 an hour I live in a rundown trailer park and drive a 2001 ford taurus I am gonna be 50 barely scratching and surviving NO FUTURE
> 
> 1987 I was a punk ass 25 year old but I got in at the foundry
> 
> Modest small ranch house on the southside of Milwaukee Wisconsin I paid a mortgage selling price back then was 56 grand new Camaro in my driveway I made $18 an hour at the iron works adjust for inflation like making $36 an hour today
> 
> Do ya follow me?


Here is the funny part??????  Tell us what happened to your foundry job?????  And when you were raking in the cash?  what did you do with the money?

Now looking at these answers, if you are actually truthful,  what did your uion do for you!

----------


## zelmo1234

> I got a fucking point pal I stated it CLEAR
> 
> 2013 NO OPPORTUNITY 
> 
> Work.hard and FUCK YOURSELF


Were you not the person that posted the thread "HOW DO YOU SCREW OFF AT WORK"?

And you want to tell me there is no oppertunity........  Do you work 80 hours a week if not how about a part time job, to help make ends meet?

Are you actively looking for a better job?  if not what the hell is the problem?

----------


## Karl

> Illegal immigrants do it every day.


And they are criminal parasites time to round them up and ship them out then militarize our southwest border with shoot on sight orders leave the rotting corpses in the open as an example for others

----------


## zelmo1234

> Good lets offshore everything then you can bitch about all those welfare parasites and call them lazy when infact you shipped their jobs away


Keep supporting your unions and more and mroe things eill be off shore, because the people fo the USA want the bets price, and you can't compete when you are trying to pay someone 20 bucks an hor plus benifits, so you either close the doors or move off shore

----------


## Network

You talk up unions but you don't understand their true impact. There is also the moral argument of the issue...if someone is willing to do a job for less pay, what right do you have to prevent that worker from accepting the job or the employer from hiring the worker?  Do you like forcing people into unemployment, creating the need for our unsustainable welfare state?  Do you like higher prices as well? 



 He is totally ignorant of the fact that increases in money wage rates obtained by labor unions reduce the quantity of labor demanded and thereby cause unemployment, less production, higher prices, and an added burden of supporting the unemployed. He is ignorant of the fact that what serves to increase money wages without causing additional unemployment is merely the increase in the quantity of money and consequent increase in the volume of spending in the economic system. But this phenomenon serves equally to raise prices and thus does not improve the standard of living of wage earners.

To state these points in the customary terminology of demand and supply, the only way that wage rates can rise is either if there is less supply of labor, which means unemployment, or more demand for labor, which will also mean more demand for consumers’ goods and thus higher prices of consumers’ goods. Thus, however surprising it may be, we must conclude that higher money wages, whether obtained through less supply of labor or more demand for labor based on a larger quantity of money, simply do not raise the standard of living of the average wage earner. We must conclude that if they really wish to raise the standard of living of the average worker, the unions are utterly misguided in making the increase in money wages their goal. But that is their goal and they have no other comparably major goal.

I want to acknowledge that there is a way that an increase in the demand for labor can raise wage rates without increasing the demand for consumers’ goods and prices. And that is insofar as it takes place as the result of an increase in saving. What would contribute to this would be reductions in government spending accompanied by equivalent reductions in taxes that are paid out of funds that would otherwise be heavily saved and invested. In this category are the corporate income tax, the progressive personal income tax, capital gains taxes, and inheritance taxes. The additional savings that resulted would be expended in substantial measure in paying additional wages. The wage earners would be in a position to increase their consumption spending correspondingly. This would not represent an increase in overall, total consumer spending, because it would be financed by an equivalent, indeed, more than equivalent reduction in consumer spending on the part of the government. Thus, while wages rose, nothing would be present to make prices rise. Of course, such tax reductions are absolutely anathema to the labor unions and their supporters.
http://mises.org/daily/6333/

----------


## Network

> but I'll also argue with any one of you that unions exist because big businesses could give two shits about their employees and would have them starve or lose their jobs to earn profits--that's the nature of business.  Anyone who tells you otherwise either never owned a business or couldn't figure out why theirs was failing.
> 
> If you're going to look at the ruthless policies of unions, also look at the ruthless policies of Wal-mart.


 @Rina_Dragonborn
Spreading socialist propaganda again, are you?    :Wink: 


Unionists are self-defeating.  I declare a capitalist filibuster on this thread..


*Markets, Not Unions, Gave us Leisure*


.....
Of course, this is only true of a capitalist economy where private property, free markets, and entrepreneurship prevail. The steady rise in living standards in (predominantly) capitalist countries is due to the benefits of private capital investment, entrepreneurship, technological advance, and a better educated workforce (no thanks to the government school monopoly, which has only served to dumb down the population). Labor unions routinely take credit for all of this while pursuing policies which impede the very institutions of capitalism that are the cause of their own prosperity.

The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours. Those who did not offer shorter work weeks were compelled by the forces of competition to offer higher compensating wages or become uncompetitive in the labor market. 
............
Investments in technology, from air-conditioned farm tractors to the robots used in automobile factories, have also made the American workplace safer.  But unions have often _opposed_ such technology with the Luddite argument that it "destroys jobs." 

Mises was right that unions have always been a primary source of anti-capitalistic propaganda.  But since he wrote _Human Action_ American unions have also been at the forefront of lobbying efforts on behalf of the regulation and taxation of business—of capital—that has severely hampered the market economy, making everyone, including unionists, worse off economically.  The regulation of business by the EPA, OSHA, FTC, DOE, and hundreds of other federal, state, and local government bureaucracies constitutes an effective tax on capital investment that makes such investment less profitable.  Less capital investment causes a decline in the growth of labor productivity, which in turn slows down the growth of wages and living standards. 

In addition, slower productivity leads to a slower growth of output in the economy, which causes prices to be higher than they otherwise would be; and fewer new products are invented and marketed.  All of these things are _harmful_ to the economic well-being of the very people labor unions claim to "represent."   (Incredibly, there are some economists who argue that unions are _good_ for productivity.  But if that were true, corporations would be _recruiting_ them instead of spending millions trying to avoid unionization).
http://mises.org/daily/1590

----------


## Karl

> Keep supporting your unions and more and mroe things eill be off shore, because the people fo the USA want the bets price, and you can't compete when you are trying to pay someone 20 bucks an hor plus benifits, so you either close the doors or move off shore


Low prices YAY lets build China and the Third World to save afew measly bucks

In the meantime once prosperous booming cities are dying off

The foodstamp card EBT has become a status symbol and a rite of passage

Scrap metal theft and drug dealing is a driving factor of the local economy

Yay GO THIRD WORLD

Cause you cheap cocksuckers wont pay an extra few bucks

----------


## countryboy

> Low prices YAY lets build China and the Third World to save afew measly bucks
> 
> In the meantime once prosperous booming cities are dying off
> 
> The foodstamp card EBT has become a status symbol and a rite of passage
> 
> Scrap metal theft and drug dealing is a driving factor of the local economy
> 
> Yay GO THIRD WORLD
> ...


I'll pay a few extra bucks, and do every chance I get. I boycott China as much as possible and buy American when I can. 

Just bought one of these for work, made in AMERICA.  :Smile:  http://www.amazon.com/Oneida-Molded-...ds=dust+deputy

41uMqu86XWL.jpg

----------


## Network

Filibuster!


*Myth 10:* _Imports from countries where labor is cheap cause unemployment in the United States.

_
One of the many problems with this doctrine is that it ignores the question: why are wages low in a foreign country and high in the United States? It starts with these wage rates as ultimate givens, and doesn't pursue the question why they are what they are. Basically, they are high in the United States because labor productivity is high – because workers here are aided by large amounts of technologically advanced capital equipment. Wage rates are low in many foreign countries because capital equipment is small and technologically primitive. *Unaided by much capital, worker productivity is far lower than in the United States. Wage rates in every country are determined by the productivity of the workers in that country. Hence, high wages in the United States are not a standing threat to American prosperity; they are the result of that prosperity.*

But what of certain industries in the U.S. that complain loudly and chronically about the "unfair" competition of products from low-wage countries? Here, we must realize that wages in each country are interconnected from one industry and occupation and region to another. All workers compete with each other, and if wages in industry A are far lower than in other industries, workers – spearheaded by young workers starting their careers – would leave or refuse to enter industry A and move to other firms or industries where the wage rate is higher.

Wages in the complaining industries, then, are high because they have been bid high by all industries in the United States. If the steel or textile industries in the United States find it difficult to compete with their counterparts abroad, it is not because foreign firms are paying low wages, but because other American industries have bid up American wage rates to such a high level that steel and textile cannot afford to pay. In short, what's really happening is that steel, textile, and other such firms are using labor inefficiently as compared to other American industries. *Tariffs or import quotas to keep inefficient firms or industries in operation hurt everyone, in every country, who is not in that industry. They injure all American consumers by keeping up prices, keeping down quality and competition, and distorting production. A tariff or an import quota is equivalent to chopping up a railroad or destroying an airline for its point is to make international transportation artificially expensive.*

Tariffs and import quotas also injure other, efficient American industries by tying up resources that would otherwise move to more efficient uses. And, in the long run, the tariffs and quotas, like any sort of monopoly privilege conferred by government, are no bonanza even for the firms being protected and subsidized. For, as we have seen in the cases of railroads and airlines, industries enjoying government monopoly (whether through tariffs or regulation) *eventually become so inefficient that they lose money anyway, and can only call for more and more bailouts, for a perpetual expanding privileged shelter from free competition.*
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard150.html

----------


## DDave

> No. Manufacturing went offshore because of our minimum wage laws. We cannot compete with the $00.85 to $2.00 an hour labor rates of China or the $1.25 labor rates of India.
> 
> Let's not kid ourselves.


Yes and no. Our minimum wage laws did not drive jobs away. The fact that we cannot compete with the low wage nations illustrates my point with the iPad example.

I'll ask again. . . . Instead of costing $599, would you pay $799 (or more) for a 32GB iPad with WiFi made in America? If you can honestly answer yes, then God bless you and your support for American jobs. If you're answer is no, well then admit you had a part off shoring jobs.

Union workers don't work for minimum wage. They work for FAR above it. And as countryboy stated, their contracts are tied to the minimum wage to keep THEIR wages a certain level above that. When the minimum wage goes up, they all get a raise.

And there are more costs that make up labor cost than just the hourly rate. There's retirement packages, etc, etc.

The answer I usually hear to the above question from the union hacks is "the greedy business owner can just take less profit".

----------


## lostbeyond

> Yes and no. Our minimum wage laws did not drive jobs away. The fact that we cannot compete with the low wage nations illustrates my point with the iPad example.
> 
> I'll ask again. . . . Instead of costing $599, would you pay $799 (or more) for a 32GB iPad with WiFi made in America? If you can honestly answer yes, then God bless you and your support for American jobs. If you're answer is no, well then admit you had a part off shoring jobs.
> 
> Union workers don't work for minimum wage. They work for FAR above it. And as countryboy stated, their contracts are tied to the minimum wage to keep THEIR wages a certain level above that. When the minimum wage goes up, they all get a raise.
> 
> And there are more costs that make up labor cost than just the hourly rate. There's retirement packages, etc, etc.
> 
> The answer I usually hear to the above question from the union hacks is "the greedy business owner can just take less profit".





> No.  Manufacturing went offshore because of our minimum wage laws.  We cannot compete with the $00.85 to $2.00 an hour labor rates of China or the $1.25 labor rates of India.
> 
> Let's not kid ourselves.


The cost of labor is no different in India or China, compared to the USA.  What the difference is that India and China manipulate their currencies against the US dollar to end up with the $0.85/hr labor cost.

----------


## DDave

> Cause you cheap cocksuckers wont pay an extra few bucks


So do YOU only buy Made in America products?  Or do you buy the cheaper alternative to "save a few bucks"?

----------


## Guest

I not only buy Made in America products when I can, I also pay more to buy local.

And @Network...Walmart takes government assistance despite being a billion dollar company.   :Wink:

----------


## countryboy

> I not only buy Made in America products when I can, I also pay more to buy local.
> 
> And @Network...Walmart takes government assistance despite being a billion dollar company.


You don't take all the tax deductions you're due? 

Did you see the link I left you to the Amish store? You should check it out, they have lots of very cool prepper stuff.  :Wink:

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

I'd just like to say that I drive a fourteen year old Ford and my next car is going to be a Ford, 'cause fuck the others. Ford is the only one where every last part is made here in America and they are the only ones that didn't take a bailout.

----------


## Guest

> You don't take all the tax deductions you're due?


I'm not talking tax deductions.  I'm talking government funds for roads leading to their store, etc.




> Did you see the link I left you to the Amish store? You should check it out, they have lots of very cool prepper stuff.


Noooo, is it in this thread?

----------


## countryboy

> I'd just like to say that I drive a fourteen year old Ford and my next car is going to be a Ford, 'cause fuck the others. Ford is the only one where every last part is made here in America and they are the only ones that didn't take a bailout.


I wanted a Ford, but I couldn't afford fifty grand to spend on a work truck. Ford trucks are waaaaaay over priced.

----------


## kilgram

> And do you honestly believe if minimum wage laws were abolished, *anyone* would be working for $2.00 an hour?


Yes, they would.

----------


## kilgram

> And they are criminal parasites time to round them up and ship them out then militarize our southwest border with shoot on sight orders leave the rotting corpses in the open as an example for others


Wow. Nice fascist idea.

If someday you are called fascist, don't get angry.

----------


## countryboy

> I'm not talking tax deductions.  I'm talking government funds for roads leading to their store, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Noooo, is it in this thread?


I thought it was, I can't keep up with the SLH threads. It's in the other one. http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...ll=1#post56888

----------


## countryboy

> Yes, they would.


Bullshit.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I wanted a Ford, but I couldn't afford fifty grand to spend on a work truck. Ford trucks are waaaaaay over priced.


The new F150 XL is only 13k, last I checked. Brand new. I used to drive it for work and both of my neighbors have one. Nice, sexy truck. Big and roomy on the inside with a nice, big bed.

----------


## countryboy

> The new F150 XL is only 13k, last I checked. Brand new. I used to drive it for work and both of my neighbors have one. Nice, sexy truck. Big and roomy on the inside with a nice, big bed.


You obviously haven't checked in a while.  :Wink:  Not even close bro. Short bed reg cab 2wd lists for $24,665. http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2013/...126-XL/Pricing

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You obviously haven't checked in a while.  Not even close bro. Short bed reg cab 2wd lists for $24,665. http://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/2013/...126-XL/Pricing


Meh. Still not 50k  :Tongue:

----------


## countryboy

> Meh. Still not 50k


I wasn't looking as the lowest base model. I need 4wd, extra cab, full size bed, towing package, etc.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I wasn't looking as the lowest base model. I need 4wd, extra cab, full size bed, towing package, etc.


Ah. Then yeah, you'd be over 50k.

----------


## Network

What affect do unions have on non-union employment?

If unions force up wages in non-union sectors as well, then what is the net effect?  All of the little people have more money, more demand for scarce resources, prices go up eliminating the gains from the increase in wages. 

Many things sound like a good idea on the surface, but there's nothing liberal about preventing employers from hiring workers and preventing workers from competing for jobs.

Workers can form a union if they want, it's getting the power of the law involved that is the problem.

----------



----------


## garyo

It's convenient to say conservatives sent jobs abroad, cities in decline are ran by leftist governments, supported by unions who shipped jobs overseas.

----------


## The XL

> You don't take all the tax deductions you're due? 
> 
> Did you see the link I left you to the Amish store? You should check it out, they have lots of very cool prepper stuff.


I have a problem with people writing the tax code and then getting big loopholes and subsidies.  You should too.

----------


## Guest

> I have a problem with people writing the tax code and then getting big loopholes and subsidies.  You should too.


Or...helping to write legislation that enables them to be immune from criminal or civil prosecution.

----------

The XL (04-14-2013)

----------


## Network

_Capitalism breathes through loopholes_
-Mises

lol

I must say, that is one area remaining where I don't necessarily agree with the Austrian/libertarian peeps.  I don't really disagree either because I think that the entire government should be reduced to a loophole, instead of just being a blackhole.

----------


## Guest

> _Capitalism breathes through loopholes_
> -Mises
> 
> lol
> 
> I must say, that is one area remaining where I don't necessarily agree with the Austrian/libertarian peeps.  I don't really disagree either because I think that the entire government should be reduced to a loophole, instead of just being a blackhole.


 @Network

did you see that I visited you when you were put in prison?

----------


## Network

> @Network
> 
> did you see that I visited you when you were put in prison?



lmao @Rina_Dragonborn

No, what do you mean?  

I appreciate it.  It was a lonely day in prison for my victimless crime.

----------

The XL (04-14-2013)

----------


## Guest

> lmao @Rina_Dragonborn
> 
> No, what do you mean?  
> 
> I appreciate it.  It was a lonely day in prison for my victimless crime.


Well, I did protest and make a good legal argument for you.   :Big Grin:

----------

Network (04-14-2013)

----------


## The XL

I missed Jimmy.  Bimmy just goes with Jimmy, like Peanut Butter goes with Jelly.

----------

Network (04-14-2013)

----------


## Guest

Well...I only missed Bimmy and Jimmy for twenty minutes or so.  Then I realized that you are annoying together and troll me.

----------


## Network

> Well, I did protest and make a good legal argument for you.



Capitalism breathes through circumvention.

----------

The XL (04-14-2013)

----------


## The XL

> Well...I only missed Bimmy and Jimmy for twenty minutes or so.  Then I realized that you are annoying together and troll me.

----------

Network (04-14-2013)

----------


## Network

Ya'll Postin' in Santa's
Troll Thread

----------

The XL (04-14-2013)

----------


## Guest



----------


## Network

Let's form a forum union and we will all agree to stop posting if one of us is punished.  Like when Rina gets drunk and starts talking about anuses.

----------



----------


## Guest

> Let's form a forum union and we will all agree to stop posting if one of us is punished.







> Like when Rina gets drunk and starts talking about anuses.

----------

The XL (04-14-2013)

----------


## The XL

> 



Why is her/his/??? eyes bleeding?

----------


## Guest

> Why is her/his/??? eyes bleeding?


She was smizing too hard.

----------


## Network

> Why is her/his/??? eyes bleeding?



Onion eyes.

My coworkers and I have not onion-eyez'd yet.  We are however, pooling our resources together for a worker's syndicate in the slight chance we can break away from the large corporation and not go collectively bankrupt.

Santa's government probably wouldn't bail us out on the backs of everyone else like they do for the onion-eyed workers.

----------



----------


## gamewell45

> Somehow the working man has become despised in steel mills of Chicago and auto plants in Detroit the 1920's / 1930's workers unified and told the robber barrons FUCK YOU we ain't working for 2/3 dollars per day and much violent bloodshed and violence and death ensued until plant owners finally caved and recognized the workers rights to COLLECTIVELY BARGAIN
> 
> This common agreement held nearly 50 years until the early 1980's
> 
> Eighties Unions became villified called crooks even extortionists
> 
> And stupid rednecks followed along
> 
> Well here we are 30 years later hope you enjoy working for $11 an hour at current prices heck in 1986 at Milwaukee Iron Works I made $18 or $36 an hour 1986 dollar spending power


I've worked union my entire working life and would have it no other way.  I've never had to worry about my pay raises and get them right on schedule and know what my benefits are going to be and they cannot be changed for the worse for the term of the contract.  If there is a disagreement over the contract there is a mechanism in place to address the issue and if they want to fire you they have to have just cause and prove it in front of an arbitrator.

For those of you who desire to work non-union, god bless you; me i'll stick working union.

----------


## teeceetx

> But no I'm a rugged individualist I don't need no stinking unionI vote Republican who OFFSHORED OUR MANUFACTURING BASE or jobs for COMMON PEOPLEWhat's left pays SQUAT can't even hardly pay rent keep a 10 year old beater on the roadBut in late 80's a young man barely out of High Scholl willing to sweat and work his ass off paid a moetgage and a new car in the drivewayTry just TRY to do that TODAY


There was a time when union workers were the best, and the hardest working.  Look at union work rules.  Look where your dues go.  How can anyone make the statements in support of unions, given the sad state of unions these days.  Unions are fund raising arms of the Democratic Party.  Union members USED to be hardcore red blooded Americans.  Now they are red diaper babies who spout left wing Socialist mantras solely to protect their coddled union jobs.  Sad indeed.

----------

Trinnity (04-15-2013)

----------

