# Stuff and Things > HISTORY, veterans & science >  Hot Take: COVID-19 Vaccines.

## FlameHeart

First, let me start off with a story to give context. My mom has this 23-yr.-old male patient. Let's call him Xander- for privacy reasons. Xander is special needs, because he has severe cerebral palsy (he is bed-bound), blind, and has a myriad of other diagnoses. He needs a caretaker 24/7, has a special crane to help him in and out of bed, a special ramp for the car, and other equipment. He goes to PT, OT, and I think speech therapy to help increase his quality of life. He cannot speak or see; he will typically answer yes or now questions with a clap, and he will clap if he is happy. He is a sweet guy. He shows up to the Saint John's ER, his mom stating that he has a urinary tract infection. They do a UA, which comes back abnormal, and they do some cultures on the sample. It turns out, this bacterium he is infected with is resistant to all antibiotics except for two IV anti-biotics- and a pharmacist must mix up these drugs; they cannot be taken any other way. This infection is one nasty, nasty thing. The two drugs are rare, and as most outpatient pharmacies do not carry them, you gave to go to a hospital ER to receive them. So this poor kid presents to the ER; he is diagnosed, but as I remember he is given a first round of IV, but they discharge him soon after because they said they need his bed available because they are getting swamped with COVID-19 patients. They could come back in the morning and get his drugs, but that would require that he be re-admitted which is thousands of dollars just for speaking to someone at the front desk. They can't help him. Considering how aggressive this infection is, it could very well spread and cause sepsis, which is dangerous in that it can and will cause multiorgan failure.

Every hospital in Oklahoma now, every single one, is currently on divert, as of speaking to my mom last night- according to what she got from those she called, this is because of COVID-19 patients. Xander can't get a bed because of these other people. Note, the closest hospital available was in Fayetteville, AR. They are also saying that 80-90% of people who are presenting for COVID-19 are NOT vaxxed.

So can someone please tell me why are hospitals having to reject Xander, whose parents are savvy and follow treatment to a T, has to give up his bed for someone who refused vaccination but is expecting the hospital to deal with the consequences, and sucking up valuable medical resources, because of their stubbornness? 

Here is the hot take: personally, I think that evey non-vaxxed person who shows up to the ER presenting with COVID-19 needs to be diagnosed with medical non-compliance, if not turned away completely. They are becoming too much of a strain on the Healthcare system in here in Oklahoma and taking up beds that people who legitimately need for things outside of their control.

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dinosaur (07-30-2021)

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## FlameHeart

Same thing for the person who has lung cancer but refused to stop smoking.

Why should we have to pay in any way, whether that be with capital or space, for people who refuse to take care of themselves?

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## Quark

Okay lets take this apart.

First, I don't think one disease is more important than other disease but that's socialized medicine for you. The CCP virus was bought and paid for by the national government so that disease is going to have priority over every other disease. This is political baby so get use to it.

Second, getting vaccinated for the CCP virus does not mean you won't get the virus and still need hospitalization. All the vaccine can do is up your chances of not dying or being seriously ill if you get the virus. However, getting the jab without a corresponding pneumonia jab is of little to no value. The CCP virus does not kill you it's the pneumonia you get from the CCP virus that kills you because the virus has weakened your respiratory immune system.

Third, it's all political in an attempt to keep the Communists in power. If we were really concerned about the CCP virus we would close off the border and not let infected illegal immigrants in loaded with the CCP virus.

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Authentic (07-31-2021),Big Bird (07-30-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-30-2021),dinosaur (07-30-2021),FlameHeart (07-30-2021),Kodiak (07-30-2021),Lone Gunman (07-30-2021),Madison (07-30-2021),OneDumbBlonde (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Conservative Libertarian

So, if I do the right thing by your claim and get the COVID vaccine so that I'm not "non-compliant" and then develop blood clots that may kill me because, as a diabetic, I'm susceptible to developing clots, is the authority mandating that I get the jab going to be held liable for my illness and/or death? I mean, I have a family that depends upon me. They deserve compensation. Well...the answer that is NO ONE WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE for my illness/death for my compelled compliance. 

So, I'm not getting the shot due to my personal assessment of risk to me and my family. It's great to sit in such judgement against others when I'm supposed to pose no risk to the compliant ones...I mean...vaccinated ones.

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Authentic (07-30-2021),Big Bird (07-30-2021),Canadianeye (07-30-2021),Fall River (08-01-2021),Lone Gunman (07-30-2021),Madison (07-30-2021),OneDumbBlonde (08-01-2021),Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Big Dummy

Think back to the Obamma death list. The old people and the diseased get the axe. There is no beds because Xander was deemed a waste of resources. Wake the fuck up its 1984.

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Authentic (07-30-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-30-2021),dinosaur (07-30-2021),Lone Gunman (07-30-2021),Madison (07-30-2021),MrMike (07-31-2021),OneDumbBlonde (08-01-2021),Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Conservative Libertarian

> Think back to the Obamma death list. The old people and the diseased get the axe. There is no beds because Xander was deemed a waste of resources. Wake the fuck up its 1984.


Young folks usually don't understand that reference. The public indoctrination system stopped suggesting that book to be read because it explains communism in a very truthful manner.

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Authentic (07-30-2021),Big Dummy (07-30-2021),dinosaur (07-30-2021),Lone Gunman (07-30-2021),Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Quark

> So, if I do the right thing by your claim and get the COVID vaccine so that I'm not "non-compliant" and then develop blood clots that may kill me because, as a diabetic, I'm susceptible to developing clots, is the authority mandating that I get the jab going to be held liable for my illness and/or death? I mean, I have a family that depends upon me. They deserve compensation. Well...the answer that is NO ONE WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE for my illness/death for my compelled compliance. 
> 
> So, I'm not getting the shot due to my personal assessment of risk to me and my family. It's great to sit in such judgement against others when I'm supposed to pose no risk to the compliant ones...I mean...vaccinated ones.


See it's all about protecting the Borg collective. The individual is just an expendable drone.

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Big Dummy (07-30-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-30-2021),dinosaur (07-30-2021),Lone Gunman (07-30-2021)

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## Quark

> Think back to the Obamma death list. The old people and the diseased get the axe. There is no beds because Xander was deemed a waste of resources. Wake the fuck up its 1984.


I remember BO's death list and you are right. The poor kid is an expendable drone of the Borg collective.

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Big Dummy (07-30-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-30-2021),dinosaur (07-30-2021),Lone Gunman (07-30-2021)

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## nonsqtr

Any drug you can get in the hospital, is also available as an outpatient. If an infusion is required a nurse can be present. There is no need to go to the hospital for antibiotics, period.

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Authentic (07-31-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-30-2021),dinosaur (07-30-2021)

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## Oceander

> Same thing for the person who has lung cancer but refused to stop smoking.
> 
> Why should we have to pay in any way, whether that be with capital or space, for people who refuse to take care of themselves?


Why should we have to pay in any way for the care of someone who quite clearly would have been dead within a very short while but for the millions of OPM that are being spent just to make sure he can clap?

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Authentic (07-31-2021),Quark (07-30-2021)

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## Authentic

> I remember BO's death list and you are right. The poor kid is an expendable drone of the Borg collective.


Young people don't recognize that cultural reference either. They love Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos but don't have the imagination to care about space. 

They are strangely conservative, in that they care about conserving Earth because they think that we are destroying her.

This rock is resilient, and I don't think that she minds us taking her internal resources to make life better for those of on her surface.

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Why should we have to pay in any way for the care of someone who quite clearly would have been dead within a very short while but for the millions of OPM that are being spent just to make sure he can clap?


Really? You don't think he is valuable? You think he should be allowed to die? Where does value start and stop, in your opinion? 

It's almost as if you are Pro-Abortion, just outside the womb instead of inside it.  


Xander's parents make sure he has a good life, despite his illnesses. 

What the hell is wrong with you?

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## nonsqtr

> Young people don't recognize that cultural reference either. They love Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos but don't have the imagination to care about space. 
> 
> They are strangely conservative, in that they care about conserving Earth because they think that we are destroying her.
> 
> This rock is resilient, and I don't think that she minds us taking her internal resources to make life better for those of on her surface.


Um... the smart move is to listen to the accountants and diversify.

Until we can do that, we have all our eggs in one basket.

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## FlameHeart

> Really? You don't think he is valuable? You think he should be allowed to die? Where does value start and stop, in your opinion? 
> 
> It's almost as if you are Pro-Abortion, just outside the womb instead of inside it.  
> 
> 
> Xander's parents make sure he has a good life, despite his illnesses. 
> 
> What the hell is wrong with you?


Not to mention his illnesses are outside of his control- they didn't start through his own negligence.

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## nonsqtr

> Really? You don't think he is valuable? You think he should be allowed to die? Where does value start and stop, in your opinion? 
> 
> It's almost as if you are Pro-Abortion, just outside the womb instead of inside it.  
> 
> 
> Xander's parents make sure he has a good life, despite his illnesses. 
> 
> What the hell is wrong with you?


Why should Covid patients have to give up their lives for Xander?

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Authentic (07-31-2021),Quark (07-30-2021)

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## FlameHeart

Still, this can be comparable to the person who doesn't study for a test and demands a good grade, while another person studies.- but slightly worse because in this case, the person who didn't study, who didn't take care off themselves, is taking from someone who was more responsible.

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Authentic (07-30-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Why should Covid patients have to give up their lives for Xander?


If they aren't vaxxed, if they didn't do their part and get vaccines that have undergone rigorous tests and studies for approval, then why should we treat them? There is only so much you can do for someone who 2on't help themselves.

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## nonsqtr

> Still, this can be comparable to the person who doesn't study for a test and demands a good grade, while another person studies.- but slightly worse because in this case, the person who didn't study, who didn't take care off themselves, is taking from someone who was more responsible.


You're still missing the point.

If the damn vaccine actually worked, you might have a point.

But it doesn't. People are getting sick anyway.

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Authentic (07-31-2021),Quark (07-30-2021)

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## Oceander

> Really? You don't think he is valuable? You think he should be allowed to die? Where does value start and stop, in your opinion? 
> 
> It's almost as if you are Pro-Abortion, just outside the womb instead of inside it.  
> 
> 
> Xander's parents make sure he has a good life, despite his illnesses. 
> 
> What the hell is wrong with you?


You're saying the other people aren't valuable because you disapprove of their choices.  What makes you any the less ghoulish than me?

First-come-first-served, and if all beds are taken, junior has to take a hike or too-bad/so-sad.

Maybe we should also kick out of hospitals people who drove a little too fast and got into a wreck - after all, they could have avoided the wreck by being more careful?

What you are effectively arguing for is a comprehensive surveillance society, with the benefits of society passed out based on one's social credit score - how well, or not, one conformed to expected social norms of caution.

That's the panopticon on steroids.  A noxious blend of Foucault and the Chinese Communist Party.

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Authentic (07-31-2021),Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## FlameHeart

Keep attacking me folks. I'll be here until 6. I still stand by my OP.  :Stirthepot:

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## Oceander

> You're still missing the point.
> 
> If the damn vaccine actually worked, you might have a point.
> 
> But it doesn't. People are getting sick anyway.


Why does that mean the vaccine doesn't work?

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## FlameHeart

> You're saying the other people aren't valuable because you disapprove of their choices.  What makes you any the less ghoulish than me?
> 
> First-come-first-served, and if all beds are taken, junior has to take a hike or too-bad/so-sad.
> 
> Maybe we should also kick out of hospitals people who drove a little too fast and got into a wreck - after all, they could have avoided the wreck by being more careful?
> 
> What you are effectively arguing for is a comprehensive surveillance society, with the benefits of society passed out based on one's social credit score - how well, or not, one conformed to expected social norms of caution.
> 
> That's the panopticon on steroids.  A noxious blend of Foucault and the Chinese Communist Party.


Junior got there first before the potential patient who would take his bed.

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## Oceander

> Keep attacking me folks. I'll be here until 6. I still stand by my OP.


You can stand by it all you want.  That doesn't make you any more correct.

Keep in mind, friend, how that might be applied to you, if we decided that some of the peccadilloes in your past were "your fault" and therefore you were less deserving of some benefit - without regard to whether you could afford to pay for it?

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## nonsqtr

> If they aren't vaxxed, if they didn't do their part and get vaccines that have undergone rigorous tests and studies for approval, then why should we treat them? There is only so much you can do for someone who 2on't help themselves.


Your premise is flawed.

The vaccine is DANGEROUS 

Making a risk based decision does NOT equate with "failing to take care of yourself".

Just sounds like more CNN propaganda

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Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Authentic

> If they aren't vaxxed, if they didn't do their part and get vaccines that have undergone rigorous tests and studies for approval, then why should we treat them? There is only so much you can do for someone who 2on't help themselves.


I guess this means that I am attacking, but wth.

What rigorous tests and studies for approval?

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> You're saying the other people aren't valuable because you disapprove of their choices.  What makes you any the less ghoulish than me?
> 
> First-come-first-served, and if all beds are taken, junior has to take a hike or too-bad/so-sad.
> 
> Maybe we should also kick out of hospitals people who drove a little too fast and got into a wreck - after all, they could have avoided the wreck by being more careful?
> 
> What you are effectively arguing for is a comprehensive surveillance society, with the benefits of society passed out based on one's social credit score - how well, or not, one conformed to expected social norms of caution.
> 
> That's the panopticon on steroids.  A noxious blend of Foucault and the Chinese Communist Party.


You are also Communist in thinking these people are entitled to Healthcare services, which wouldn't be effective since they refuse to comply.

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## FlameHeart

> Your premise is flawed.
> 
> The vaccine is DANGEROUS 
> 
> Making a risk based decision does NOT equate with "failing to take care of yourself".
> 
> Just sounds like more CNN propaganda


How so? I need to see studies.

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## Authentic

> If they aren't vaxxed, if they didn't do their part and get vaccines that have undergone rigorous tests and studies for approval, then why should we treat them? There is only so much you can do for someone who 2on't help themselves.


I guess this means that I am attacking, but wth.

_What_ rigorous tests and studies for approval?

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> I guess this means that I am attacking, but wth.
> 
> What rigorous tests and studies for approval?


There are different lab and clinical tests a drug must pass, in four phases, before it can be released to the public

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## Authentic

> How so? I need to see studies.


So do I, in support of your claims of vaccine safety and efficacy.

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## Oceander

> Junior got there first before the potential patient who would take his bed.


Then why wasn't this waste of space put into that bed?

Oh, wait, because the COVID-19 sufferer got assigned first.

But wait, for the cost of a thousand, this waste of space could come back to the hospital the next day and get the IV medications.

So, what you really want to do is to foist the cost of this skin-bag's care onto the rest of us.  His po' widdle parents - the ones who've been pushing the cost of his upkeep onto the rest of us for years - want us to continue to pay for him.

Apparently, you are a closet socialist.

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## Authentic

> There are different lab and clinical tests a drug must pass, in four phases, before it can be released to the public


Were they done?

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## FlameHeart

> You can stand by it all you want.  That doesn't make you any more correct.
> 
> Keep in mind, friend, how that might be applied to you, if we decided that some of the peccadilloes in your past were "your fault" and therefore you were less deserving of some benefit - without regard to whether you could afford to pay for it?


Apples to oranges. This is based on whether someone follows the recommended treatment plan and actively participates in their getting better.

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## Oceander

> You are also Communist in thinking these people are entitled to Healthcare services, which wouldn't be effective since they refuse to comply.


Bullshit.

I said nothing about entitlement.  I'm first come/first served, and only if you can afford it.

Have a nice life, you effing little fascist.  Funny how it took so long for you to pull off the camouflage and reveal your true nature.

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## nonsqtr

> There are different lab and clinical tests a drug must pass, in four phases, before it can be released to the public


None of the vaccines have been approved.

They're all considered experimental treatments.

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Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Then why wasn't this waste of space put into that bed?
> 
> Oh, wait, because the COVID-19 sufferer got assigned first.
> 
> But wait, for the cost of a thousand, this waste of space could come back to the hospital the next day and get the IV medications.
> 
> So, what you really want to do is to foist the cost of this skin-bag's care onto the rest of us.  His po' widdle parents - the ones who've been pushing the cost of his upkeep onto the rest of us for years - want us to continue to pay for him.
> 
> Apparently, you are a closet socialist.


Ok, and you are a closet pro-abort. Because you perceive someone less valuable because of their disability, you would rather let them die. Kind of like Obama Care. 

I'm not sure how you are equating me wanting people to take responsibility for their own health to being a socialist. I refuse to pay for someone, or let someone more responsible, pay for someone who doesn't want to take responsibility. Whether that be directly through finances or indirectly by paying for their Healthcare or with time or space. Seems like you are the one who is Communist and Socialist.

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## Authentic

We have to remember that FlameHeart is young, and from what she has said apparently is poised to enter some kind of medical field.

As a recent university graduate myself, I understand the social and political indoctrination that she might face.

All I am saying, is be patient with her.

She is a product of our times, and we made them.

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Physics Hunter (08-01-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Bullshit.
> 
> I said nothing about entitlement.  I'm first come/first served, and only if you can afford it.
> 
> Have a nice life, you effing little fascist.  Funny how it took so long for you to pull off the camouflage and reveal your true nature.


But you are entitled and that is how you come off. 

Have a lovely life as well!  :Love6:  your poorly-controlled health is not my responsibility, pro-abort.

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## Authentic

And she has shown some conservative streaks. I also do not like throwing the word "fascist" around wontonly, unless it is aimed at actual liberals.

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## nonsqtr

> We have to remember that FlameHeart is young, and from what she has said apparently is poised to enter some kind of medical field.
> 
> As a recent university graduate myself, I understand the social and political indoctrination that she might face.
> 
> All I am saying, is be patient with her.
> 
> She is a product of our times, and we made them.


Horseshit.

The FIRST thing you learn in medical school is your Hippocratic Oath.

Making treatment conditional on compliance IS the Communist way, and it is a complete violation of the medical oath.

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Physics Hunter (08-01-2021),Quark (07-30-2021)

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## Authentic

> None of the vaccines have been approved.
> 
> They're all considered experimental treatments.


Experimental biological weapons.

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Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> And she has shown some conservative streaks. I also do not like throwing the word "fascist" around wontonly, unless it is aimed at actual liberals.


I am Conservative and I have been radicalized to the right since I cast my first vote in the 2016 Republican primary for Cruz. 

I won't let some low-life Communist RINO on the Internet like Oceander define my ideology and my beliefs. I do 't subscribe to group think like he does, and I am actually smart enough to understand what hospitals are dealing with by being on the Frontlines of the pandemic and as someone who has done research and studying medicine as a major. I know more about tne MOA of the vaccine than perhaps he does.

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Authentic (07-30-2021)

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## Authentic

> Horseshit.
> 
> The FIRST thing you learn in medical school is your Hippocratic Oath.
> 
> Making treatment conditional on compliance IS the Communist way, and it is a complete violation of the medical oath.


Well, my degree isn't in medical, although a significant amount of pre-med students choose it as their undergraduate course of study before applying to med school.

And why not? Racism is now a medical issue, and racism comes up a lot in my major!

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## Authentic

> I am Conservative and I have been radicalized to the right since I cast my first vote in the 2016 Republican primary for Cruz. 
> 
> I won't let some low-life Communist RINO on the Internet like Oceander define my ideology and my beliefs. I do 't subscribe to group think like he does, and I am actually smart enough to understand what hospitals are dealing with by being on the Frontlines of the pandemic and as someone who has done research and studying medicine as a major. I know more about tne MOA of the vaccine than perhaps he does.


That is fine, and I think that you are on the right track.

Aside from that, why Cruz?

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## FlameHeart

> Horseshit.
> 
> The FIRST thing you learn in medical school is your Hippocratic Oath.
> 
> Making treatment conditional on compliance IS the Communist way, and it is a complete violation of the medical oath.


They deserve treatment, but they should be diagnosed as medically NCB. Also, one of the issues in the OP is about this kid having to give up HIS bed for a potential patient. 

So what do you say about hospitals having to turn people away due to being at capacity? You don't have anything, that's what.

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## Authentic

By the way, in liking her post, I am not calling  @Oceander a communist RINO.

Sheesh, have we all forgotten Reagan's 11th Commandment?

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Physics Hunter (08-01-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> That is fine, and I think that you are on the right track.
> 
> Aside from that, why Cruz?


Many reasons. 

Because of his adherence to the Constitution and adhering to freedom- he was one of the Senators in 2013 who cut down the chains keeping the barricades to DC monuments up that Obama put in place. He thought that Obama and the Dems were overstepping their bounds.

Because of his flat tax plan, at 10% individually and 16% corporately.

Because of his sincerely pro-life stance- which is one of the reasons why I was against Trump initially.

Because of his addressing illegal immigration. 

I liked his foreign policy of wanting to completely annihilate ISIS- remember the "sand glowing green" comment?

I also liked Ben Carson for his Healthcare plan. And Carly Florida with foreign policy.

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## Authentic

> I am Conservative and I have been radicalized to the right since I cast my first vote in the 2016 Republican primary for Cruz.


Quick tip, don't say that you have been "radicalized". It may be safe here, but we are becoming East Germany. Everyone has ears and a phone. The Stasi is waiting for any excuse to fill their dungeons.

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Physics Hunter (08-01-2021)

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## nonsqtr

> And she has shown some conservative streaks. I also do not like throwing the word "fascist" around wontonly, unless it is aimed at actual liberals.


I understand Flameheart feeling sorry for Xander, but the truth is he has no more right to that bed than anyone else does. It's not "his" bed, he has to wait in line at the ER just like everyone else does.

Being a doctor is kind of like being a cop, you're not allowed to feel sorry for people. You CAN'T, and still do your job.

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## nonsqtr

> Quick tip, don't say that you have been "radicalized". It may be safe here, but we are becoming East Germany. Everyone has ears and a phone. The Stasi is waiting to fill their dungeons.


Fuck "everyone".

"Everyone" can go rotate.

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Quark (07-30-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Well, my degree isn't in medical, although a significant amount of pre-med students choose it as their undergraduate course of study before applying to med school.
> 
> And why not? Racism is now a medical issue, and racism comes up a lot in my major!


It definitely can be. Not always. 

You can't help someone that won't help themselves and that is why NS's statement is a false equivalency. You can certainly try, but you can't do everything for someone. 

By the way, this virus seems to be mutating, so if you catch one strain, odds are likely you might catch another. There's also the fact of "collateral damage" with lung inflammation.

Trump's original treatment suggestions were good, and I like them, but the FDA isn't going to let them get off the ground- they will have to be used off-label.

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## nonsqtr

> By the way, in liking her post, I am not calling  @Oceander a communist RINO.
> 
> Sheesh, have we all forgotten Reagan's 11th Commandment?


Still sounds like snowflake emotionalism coupled with a healthy dose of gubmint propaganda.

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Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Authentic

Just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you. On the other hand, we d o have to be able to function in the real world. Learn to balance security with practicality.

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## FlameHeart

> I understand Flameheart feeling sorry for Xander, but the truth is he has no more right to that bed than anyone else does. It's not "his" bed, he has to wait in line at the ER just like everyone else does.
> 
> Being a doctor is kind of like being a cop, you're not allowed to feel sorry for people. You CAN'T, and still do your job.


Exactly- waiting in line. The main problem I have is terminating his treatment for someone who hasn't even gotten there.

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## nonsqtr

> Quick tip, don't say that you have been "radicalized". It may be safe here, but we are becoming East Germany. Everyone has ears and a phone. The Stasi is waiting for any excuse to fill their dungeons.


Just say no.

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## FlameHeart

I guess being pro-vaxx and pro-mental health make me a "fucking closet Socialist" and a part of "Communism." Who would have thought?

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## nonsqtr

> Exactly- waiting in line. The main problem I have is terminating his treatment for someone who hasn't even gotten there.


If someone is bedridden, UTI is a persistent problem. It's not cool for the mother to go running to the ER every time Xander gets an infection.

Sounds like a little thought could help this equation

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## FlameHeart

> Just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you. On the other hand, we d o have to be able to function in the real world. Learn to balance security with practicality.


The more I see Communist bullshit and the way they treat others (which really isn't too far off from the treatment I have received in this thread with the name-calling and emotional drivel for disagreeing with the neo-Cons here), the more I actually become Libertarian and drift into the bottom right corner of the political map. It is sad that some people here think they can define others' ideals, but whatever right? Got to fit in to the group think or, "you can't sit with us."

----------

Authentic (07-30-2021)

----------


## nonsqtr

> I guess being pro-vaxx and pro-mental health make me a "fucking closet Socialist" and a part of "Communism." Who would have thought?


Hey, own it. If you're trying to deny treatment based on compliance, then you're WORSE than a Socialist, you're almost descending into Mengele territory. Just sayin.

----------

Oceander (07-30-2021),Quark (07-30-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Just say no.


If the political police (FBI, BATF, Secret Service, etc...) come to your door, ask for a warrant and close the door. If they detain you, say only five words, "I have nothing to say."

Their only objective is to do you harm while advancing their careers.

----------


## FlameHeart

> If someone is bedridden, UTI is a persistent problem. It's not cool for the mother to go running to the ER every time Xander gets an infection.
> 
> Sounds like a little thought could help this equation


Don't fucking talk to me after you just called me a Snowflake. 

I don't know his history behind UTIs but even then, they can be hard to avoid. 

Regardless, you have lost your right to participate in my thread. Bye.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Hey, own it. If you're trying to deny treatment based on compliance, then you're WORSE than a Socialist, you're almost descending into Mengele territory. Just sayin.


But the thing is, I am not going to own something I don't have. 

I am just asking for people to take responsibility for their health. You think that the kid who doesn't want to study should get the same grade as the kid who did study. Fuck off with that bullshit.

----------


## Authentic

> The more I see Communist bullshit and the way they treat others (which really isn't too far off from the treatment I have received in this thread with the name-calling and emotional drivel for disagreeing with the neo-Cons here), the more I actually become Libertarian and drift into the bottom right corner of the political map. It is sad that some people here think they can define others' ideals, but whatever right? Got to fit in to the group think or, "you can't sit with us."


That happens a lot with me when I try to give a balanced opinion about Palestinians.

----------

FlameHeart (07-30-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

Some of you are worse than the leftists. "Just sayin'."

----------


## dinosaur

People are hospitalized because they need the treatment that can only be provided in a hospital.  Once the emergency has passed, they are released to continue treatment outside the hospital.  Can we assume Xander does in fact still have out patient treatment options, and is using them?

It is difficult to get released from the hospital.  Doctors have to sign orders.  If I am in the hospital and try to get up and leave, all hell breaks loose.  Hospitals just don't kick out one patient for another.

On the other hand, if there is no revenue stream associated with the patient (for example, an uninsured person), the hospital will attempt to perform life saving treatment as required by law in the emergency portion, without admittance, and discharge the patient as soon as possible.  If a hospital does decide to discharge one patient because they get less (either insurance or government dollars) than they would for, say, a Covid patient, then the shame is on that hospital, and I would not want to be a user of their services (or work there).

----------

Quark (07-30-2021)

----------


## Oceander

> Hey, own it. If you're trying to deny treatment based on compliance, then you're WORSE than a Socialist, you're almost descending into Mengele territory. Just sayin.


Bingo.

----------


## FlameHeart

> By the way, in liking her post, I am not calling  @Oceander a communist RINO.
> 
> Sheesh, have we all forgotten Reagan's 11th Commandment?


That went out the window the moment these bastards started calling me socialist, fascist, communist and started comparing me to Communist and Totalitarian dictators who tortured and killed their own people.

I will hit back 10x harder. I'm done with shit heads who think they can control me and bully me into submission. 

I'm done. They are on my blacklist and I will likely be holding a grudge now that I know their true character.

----------


## FlameHeart

> People are hospitalized because they need the treatment that can only be provided in a hospital.  Once the emergency has passed, they are released to continue treatment outside the hospital.  Can we assume Xander does in fact still have out patient treatment options, and is using them?


Yes. However, this does not mean that the people in the ER dropped the ball and given the nature of his illness, he was not ready to be discharged.




> It is difficult to get released from the hospital.  Doctors have to sign orders.  If I am in the hospital and try to get up and leave, all hell breaks loose.  Hospitals just don't kick out one patient for another.


This is what I am hearing from this boy's parents.




> On the other hand, if there is no revenue stream associated with the patient (for example, an uninsured person), the hospital will attempt to perform life saving treatment as required by law in the emergency portion, without admittance, and discharge the patient as soon as possible.  If a hospital does decide to discharge one patient because they get less (either insurance or government dollars) than they would for, say, a Covid patient, then the shame is on that hospital, and I would not want to be a user of their services (or work there).


Indeed. 

Thanks for being respectful about this. It's more than I can ask from some people, apparently.

----------

dinosaur (07-30-2021)

----------


## nonsqtr

> But the thing is, I am not going to own something I don't have. 
> 
> I am just asking for people to take responsibility for their health. You think that the kid who doesn't want to study should get the same grade as the kid who did study. Fuck off with that bullshit.


You are in no position to dictate other peoples' choices.

Back off with that crap.

THAT is fascist and communist and every other bad thing 

Just stop with the bullshit propaganda 

I am a better and more highly credentialed scientist than ANY government official, including that asshole Fraudci.

I am entitled to make my own medical decisions, without being dictated to by people who know less than I do.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (07-30-2021),Quark (07-30-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> That happens a lot with me when I try to give a balanced opinion about Palestinians.


Palestine and Israel have a war that dates back to what seems the beginning of time. Israel is surrounded by enemies, no doubt, and that is why they have to take such drastic measures.

Regardless, I am pro-Israel, which is another reason I favored Cruz.

----------


## FlameHeart

> You are in no position to dictate other peoples' choices.
> 
> Back off with that crap.
> 
> THAT is fascist and communist and every other bad thing 
> 
> Just stop with the bullshit propaganda 
> 
> I am a better and more highly credentialed scientist than ANY government official, including that asshole Fraudci.
> ...


"Back off"? The hell I will. You back the fuck off, Commie. 

Are you an MD? DO? ND? PhD? What could your credentials possibly be? 

Regardless, the fact that you think resources- that are in low supply- should be used for people who refuse to help themselves is laughable. You aren't entitled to help for a problem you willingly caused yourself.

And by the way, I do not think the vaccines are perfect- they need to be refined. But getting vaxxed is much better than not doing anything at all.

----------


## nonsqtr

> "Back off"? The hell I will. You back the fuck off, Commie. 
> 
> Are you an MD? DO? ND? PhD? What could your credentials possibly be? 
> 
> Regardless, the fact that you think resources- that are in low supply- should be used for people who refuse to help themselves is laughable. You aren't entitled to help for a problem you willingly caused yourself.
> 
> And by the way, I do not think the vaccines are perfect- they need to be refined. But getting vaxxed is much better than not doing anything at all.


You're speaking gibberish.

It is ILLEGAL for hospitals to turn away alcoholics 

In all 50 States.

Think about it

----------


## FlameHeart

The fact that we even have to deal with this pandemic is ridiculous- it is ultimately the CCP's fault, and the lab in Wuhan. They are the ones who ultimately need to face sanctions. But that isn't going to happen with Biden.

----------


## nonsqtr

> "Back off"? The hell I will. You back the fuck off, Commie. 
> 
> Are you an MD? DO? ND? PhD? What could your credentials possibly be? 
> 
> Regardless, the fact that you think resources- that are in low supply- should be used for people who refuse to help themselves is laughable. You aren't entitled to help for a problem you willingly caused yourself.
> 
> And by the way, I do not think the vaccines are perfect- they need to be refined. But getting vaxxed is much better than not doing anything at all.


All I hear is, miss High and Mighty suddenly gets to decide who lives and who dies.

----------

Quark (07-30-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> All I hear is, miss High and Mighty suddenly gets to decide who lives and who dies.


Ok, if I am so "miss High and Mighty," I guess you must be a lowly peasant? And since I get to decide who lives and who dies, according to your silly ass, maybe you should die, because your opinion isn't worth anything.

----------


## FlameHeart

> All I hear is, miss High and Mighty suddenly gets to decide who lives and who dies.


So sorry for advocating people take responsibility for their decisions. Guess that is the Communist, dictator way.

----------


## FlameHeart

> All I hear is, miss High and Mighty suddenly gets to decide who lives and who dies.


And what's the matter? I thought COVID-19 WAS NOT lethal. So I don't know what you are rambling on about, you poor little prince who is oh so sensitive. So COVID-19 lethal or not? Quit moving the goal posts.

I never advocated for people dying.

----------


## Authentic

> Ok, if I am so "miss High and Mighty," I guess you must be a lowly peasant? And since I get to decide who lives and who dies, maybe you should die, because your opinion isn't worth anything.


I'd say wow, but I always expect to die tomorrow.

Or even in the next five minutes.

My whole bloody state has been waiting for the Big One that will break us off into the Pacific Ocean and give Arizona oceanfront property, yeah?

----------


## nonsqtr

> "Back off"? The hell I will. You back the fuck off, Commie. 
> 
> Are you an MD? DO? ND? PhD? What could your credentials possibly be? 
> 
> Regardless, the fact that you think resources- that are in low supply- should be used for people who refuse to help themselves is laughable. You aren't entitled to help for a problem you willingly caused yourself.
> 
> And by the way, I do not think the vaccines are perfect- they need to be refined. But getting vaxxed is much better than not doing anything at all.


Hm. Ten thousand surgeries enough in the way of credentials? Yes, I went to med school and there's a piled higher and deeper on my wall too.

What's more relevant to this discussion is, I studied virology under Arnie Levine. I probably have more hours with actual viruses than Dictator Fauci.

What I can tell you for sure is, auto-immune reactions from mRNA typically take four years. There are 'forms' of auto-immunity that are more like allergies and happen right away, but the serious stuff like demyelination takes a few years to develop.

I'll wait. That's my expert medical opinion.

You - it's your choice. I trust you to make your own decision.

----------

Quark (07-30-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Hm. Ten thousand surgeries enough in the way of credentials? Yes, I went to med school and there's a piled higher and deeper on my wall too.
> 
> What's more relevant to this discussion is, I studied virology under Arnie Levine. I probably have more hours with actual viruses than Dictator Fauci.
> 
> What I can tell you for sure is, auto-immune reactions from mRNA typically take four years. There are 'forms' of auto-immunity that are more like allergies and happen right away, but the serious stuff like demyelination takes a few years to develop.
> 
> I'll wait. That's my expert medical opinion.
> 
> You - it's your choice. I trust you to make your own decision.


Wow, a doctor who resorts to name calling and crap slinging. That's a shame. One would have thought that if you had such high credentials, you would have resorted to a substantial argument instead of resorting to personal insults.

----------


## Authentic



----------


## FlameHeart

> Hm. Ten thousand surgeries enough in the way of credentials? Yes, I went to med school and there's a piled higher and deeper on my wall too.
> 
> What's more relevant to this discussion is, I studied virology under Arnie Levine. I probably have more hours with actual viruses than Dictator Fauci.
> 
> What I can tell you for sure is, auto-immune reactions from mRNA typically take four years. There are 'forms' of auto-immunity that are more like allergies and happen right away, but the serious stuff like demyelination takes a few years to develop.
> 
> I'll wait. That's my expert medical opinion.
> 
> You - it's your choice. I trust you to make your own decision.


I agree, it is people's choice on whether to get the vaccination. I don't support this door-to-door stuff; that in the very least is HIPAA violation. 

But in the same breath, take responsibility for your health and well-being. Perhaps it wouldn't be as much of an issue if it weren't for the sheer volume of people with this issue.

While I have taken undergrad Immuno and hear you, the issue with this virus family is that it is an mRNA virus- it utilizes reverse transcriptase and host ribosomes to further replicate. I assume there are also unique PAMs associated with this virus that illicit an immune response.

----------


## donttread

> First, let me start off with a story to give context. My mom has this 23-yr.-old male patient. Let's call him Xander- for privacy reasons. Xander is special needs, because he has severe cerebral palsy (he is bed-bound), blind, and has a myriad of other diagnoses. He needs a caretaker 24/7, has a special crane to help him in and out of bed, a special ramp for the car, and other equipment. He goes to PT, OT, and I think speech therapy to help increase his quality of life. He cannot speak or see; he will typically answer yes or now questions with a clap, and he will clap if he is happy. He is a sweet guy. He shows up to the Saint John's ER, his mom stating that he has a urinary tract infection. They do a UA, which comes back abnormal, and they do some cultures on the sample. It turns out, this bacterium he is infected with is resistant to all antibiotics except for two IV anti-biotics- and a pharmacist must mix up these drugs; they cannot be taken any other way. This infection is one nasty, nasty thing. The two drugs are rare, and as most outpatient pharmacies do not carry them, you gave to go to a hospital ER to receive them. So this poor kid presents to the ER; he is diagnosed, but as I remember he is given a first round of IV, but they discharge him soon after because they said they need his bed available because they are getting swamped with COVID-19 patients. They could come back in the morning and get his drugs, but that would require that he be re-admitted which is thousands of dollars just for speaking to someone at the front desk. They can't help him. Considering how aggressive this infection is, it could very well spread and cause sepsis, which is dangerous in that it can and will cause multiorgan failure.
> 
> Every hospital in Oklahoma now, every single one, is currently on divert, as of speaking to my mom last night- according to what she got from those she called, this is because of COVID-19 patients. Xander can't get a bed because of these other people. Note, the closest hospital available was in Fayetteville, AR. They are also saying that 80-90% of people who are presenting for COVID-19 are NOT vaxxed.
> 
> So can someone please tell me why are hospitals having to reject Xander, whose parents are savvy and follow treatment to a T, has to give up his bed for someone who refused vaccination but is expecting the hospital to deal with the consequences, and sucking up valuable medical resources, because of their stubbornness? 
> 
> Here is the hot take: personally, I think that evey non-vaxxed person who shows up to the ER presenting with COVID-19 needs to be diagnosed with medical non-compliance, if not turned away completely. They are becoming too much of a strain on the Healthcare system in here in Oklahoma and taking up beds that people who legitimately need for things outside of their control.


I cannot. In my state I don't think that discharge would have flown. Of course it was probably not worded that way.

----------


## FirstGenCanadian

Can someone explain to me, who was guaranteed to live a long life, on Earth?  If you were, sue the person that sold you that contract, and get on with living.  Each day to the fullest.  

Sitting around whinging about what you think you're entitled to, in a mortal existence is ridiculous.  We are all going to die.  How and why does NOT depend on others, or yourself.  Any of us can be struck dead, by a bullet, by a bolt of lightning, by a car, by a virus, a heart attack, and much, much, more, at any time.  What makes COVID-19 so special?

I'll tell you.  Not a fucking thing!

If, you're Christian, pray.  If you're not, get on with life.  This is the only one you get, unless you believe in reincarnation, then hope you become the next world leader and put this race of humans on the right track.

No one has any right, to tell anyone how to live.  All you can do is live, each day, hoping there's another.  If not, well, welcome to Earth, hope your stay with the rest of us was pleasant.

----------

Quark (07-30-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Hm. Ten thousand surgeries enough in the way of credentials? Yes, I went to med school and there's a piled higher and deeper on my wall too.
> 
> What's more relevant to this discussion is, I studied virology under Arnie Levine. I probably have more hours with actual viruses than Dictator Fauci.
> 
> What I can tell you for sure is, auto-immune reactions from mRNA typically take four years. There are 'forms' of auto-immunity that are more like allergies and happen right away, but the serious stuff like demyelination takes a few years to develop.
> 
> I'll wait. That's my expert medical opinion.
> 
> You - it's your choice. I trust you to make your own decision.


Don't leave out that you wrote the computer program that discovered the dopamine D2 receptor.

----------


## donttread

> Same thing for the person who has lung cancer but refused to stop smoking.
> 
> Why should we have to pay in any way, whether that be with capital or space, for people who refuse to take care of themselves?


The truth is that our healthcare system is more about diseases of lifesytle than it is about bacteria, viruses and injury. That's partly why we had such a hard time adjusting to COVID. 30-50 years ago we had more beds per capaita than we do now
Where would you draw the line?

----------


## nonsqtr

> Wow, a doctor who resorts to name calling and crap slinging. That's a shame. One would have thought that if you had such high credentials, you would have resorted to a substantial argument instead of resorting to personal insults.


What insults?

This is a political forum, ain't it?

Reading comprehension... slow down... I never said I'm a doctor. I'm actually in the music business.  :Grin: 

In my career I straddled the line between engineering and actual biology. Thirty years of that and I became responsible for the business processes of four thousand engineers at the nation's second largest medical provider.

There, everyone who works there in any capacity, from the lowliest janitor to the CEO, has to get a slate of vaccinations. Why? Well, the reason is actually quite interesting: nurse's strikes.

When the nurses go on strike (which happens regularly), they have to press the computer programmers into service as janitors, to keep the hospitals running. A strike could happen at any moment, therefore, the programmers have to be vaccinated.

It's not a law, it's corporate liability.

It's the medical "business".

----------

Authentic (07-30-2021),FlameHeart (07-30-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> What insults?
> 
> This is a political forum, ain't it?
> 
> Reading comprehension... slow down... I never said I'm a doctor. I'm actually in the music business. 
> 
> In my career I straddled the line between engineering and actual biology. Thirty years of that and I became responsible for the business processes of four thousand engineers at the nation's second largest medical provider.
> 
> There, everyone who works there in any capacity, from the lowliest janitor to the CEO, has to get a slate of vaccinations. Why? Well, the reason is actually quite interesting: nurse's strikes.
> ...


It's true. Recently he was helping produce a rap album on Slauson Avenue, according to posts on this forum.

----------


## Authentic

He is also helping make country music great again, if I have read things right.

nonsqtr sounds like a real Renaissance man, yeah?

----------


## FlameHeart

> It's true. Recently he was helping produce a rap album on Slauson Avenue, according to posts on this forum.


Honestly, I admire and respect that. My boyfriend (high school sweetheart) graduated in 2020 with his BS in Computer Science (?), with a focus in programming, IIRC. Dude can translate binary, ASCII, python. My dad used to do some cool stuff with ASCII in the early days of computers. Never, in a million years, could I hope of translating a program language, let alone write one.

ETA: Wrong post, apologies. Meant to quote your next post up.

----------


## nonsqtr

> It's true. Recently he was helping produce a rap album on Slauson Avenue, according to posts on this forum.


Ha ha - that was a while back.

"Recently" I wrote a Python script that lets me slip the time code on a video track down to sample accurate level.

The video people, they deal in "frames", typically it's 24 or 30 frames/second. But us audio guys, we're good down to 1/96,000th of a second in Pro Tools.

So what happens is we're doing a motion capture shoot that's timed to audio, and we have multiple cameras at different angles sync'd to time code.

But it's "video" time code, only 30 fps, so each camera can slip by up to 3000 samples, which is definitely audible! (It ends up being a tad over 1 ms, something like that).

So my Python script lets me slip the time code on a video track even when it's already embedded, and I can do it in real time from inside Premiere or any of the industry standard editors.

Yeah man, that rap stuff is too dangerous. I know a guy with a metal plate in his head, that he got from hanging out with the rappers.

----------

Authentic (07-30-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Honestly, I admire and respect that. My boyfriend (high school sweetheart) graduated in 2020 with his BS in Computer Science (?), with a focus in programming, IIRC. Dude can translate binary, ASCII, python. My dad used to do some cool stuff with ASCII in the early days of computers. Never, in a million years, could I hope of translating a program language, let alone write one.
> 
> ETA: Wrong post, apologies. Meant to quote your next post up.


I used to know how to translate hexadecimal into binary and machine language.

I still have the books.

I have sold some books, but I don't throw important stuff away. I have the syllabi from 24 years ago, but I also have the assigned material. I need some books from 5-6 years ago. I have those courses syllabi too. One book I want back is titled "A Modern History of the Middle East". I sold it for bus fare, so that I could get to another class, after the Department of Education cut off my Pell Grant. Thank you to everyone who paid most of my education. I cannot thank you enough, even if you did not have a choice. I am in debt now because I am somewhat of an absentminded professor and didn't read the fine print.

Oh, well. It will turn out all right.

----------

FlameHeart (07-30-2021)

----------


## nonsqtr

> He is also helping make country music great again, if I have read things right.
> 
> nonsqtr sounds like a real Renaissance man, yeah?


I have this thing that's not in the DSM yet, it's called "career ADHD". It means I get bored at work. So, I look for other stuff to do. Take a few months off, make some music, have some fun... In the past I usually ended up back at work when the money ran out. Lately I'm actually making a living being creative, it's the music "business" so there's as much paperwork as there is guitars, but generally speaking it's good.

----------

Authentic (07-30-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-31-2021)

----------


## nonsqtr

> I agree, it is people's choice on whether to get the vaccination. I don't support this door-to-door stuff; that in the very least is HIPAA violation. 
> 
> But in the same breath, take responsibility for your health and well-being. Perhaps it wouldn't be as much of an issue if it weren't for the sheer volume of people with this issue.
> 
> While I have taken undergrad Immuno and hear you, the issue with this virus family is that it is an mRNA virus- it utilizes reverse transcriptase and host ribosomes to further replicate. I assume there are also unique PAMs associated with this virus that illicit an immune response.


There's a lot of people doing a lot of assuming, because for the first time in our history, the government is colluding with the private sector to SUPPRESS the free flow of scientific information.

The real science that's going in, isn't getting around, because there's too much noise.

In my career, I worked on a polyoma virus that causes PML, it's a virus-caused auto-immune condition of sorts (caused by the "JC virus" lol). It seems to be exacerbated by the biologics (drugs with names that end in "ab"), but there is also additional specific weakening with drugs like Tysabri (for MS).

These viruses are sly, they have ways if getting into places they're not supposed to be able to get into. 

Honestly, they haven't the foggiest clue how Covid really works, yet. And yes, the PAM's you mentioned include partially assembled viruses.

I'd like to have a little more information before tapping the plunger.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (07-31-2021),FlameHeart (07-30-2021),Foghorn (07-30-2021),Quark (07-30-2021)

----------


## Quark

> Really? You don't think he is valuable? You think he should be allowed to die? Where does value start and stop, in your opinion? 
> 
> It's almost as if you are Pro-Abortion, just outside the womb instead of inside it.  
> 
> 
> Xander's parents make sure he has a good life, despite his illnesses. 
> 
> What the hell is wrong with you?


I have no problem with people spending their own money trying to keep a person alive but spending other peoples money is another story. And before you go ballistic I've sign the legal papers for how I'm to be taken care so that other people are spending money to keep me alive. I've signed a living will and a POLST.

In a free society people do not have a right to use other peoples money to keep anyone alive.

----------


## Quark

> I am Conservative and I have been radicalized to the right since I cast my first vote in the 2016 Republican primary for Cruz. 
> 
> I won't let some low-life Communist RINO on the Internet like Oceander define my ideology and my beliefs. I do 't subscribe to group think like he does, and I am actually smart enough to understand what hospitals are dealing with by being on the Frontlines of the pandemic and as someone who has done research and studying medicine as a major. I know more about tne MOA of the vaccine than perhaps he does.


In other words, you have been properly indoctrinated.

----------


## Quark

> The fact that we even have to deal with this pandemic is ridiculous- it is ultimately the CCP's fault, and the lab in Wuhan. They are the ones who ultimately need to face sanctions. But that isn't going to happen with Biden.


Hell Fauci should be criminally charged including all of CDC, NIHA, and all the other government medical alphabet soup for funding this criminal act but that is never going to happen.

----------

FlameHeart (07-30-2021)

----------


## Canadianeye

> Ok, and you are a closet pro-abort. Because you perceive someone less valuable because of their disability, you would rather let them die. Kind of like Obama Care. 
> 
> I'm not sure how you are equating me wanting people to take responsibility for their own health to being a socialist. I refuse to pay for someone, or let someone more responsible, pay for someone who doesn't want to take responsibility. Whether that be directly through finances or indirectly by paying for their Healthcare or with time or space. Seems like you are the one who is Communist and Socialist.


I think the problem with this type of thing, is there is never an end to it. This "pandemic" is proving that.

How about the person who used to smoke, in comparison to person who does smoke? What if Xander smokes, or, his parents smoked around him?

How about hip replacements, which is a huge drain on HC? Should there be background checks done on who did a lot of jogging or running?

I mean there really is no end to it, once your ball is rolling - and - the ball is rolling.

----------

Call_me_Ishmael (07-30-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-30-2021),Quark (07-30-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> So, if I do the right thing by your claim and get the COVID vaccine so that I'm not "non-compliant" and then develop blood clots that may kill me because, as a diabetic, I'm susceptible to developing clots, is the authority mandating that I get the jab going to be held liable for my illness and/or death? I mean, I have a family that depends upon me. They deserve compensation. Well...the answer that is NO ONE WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE for my illness/death for my compelled compliance. 
> 
> So, I'm not getting the shot due to my personal assessment of risk to me and my family. It's great to sit in such judgement against others when I'm supposed to pose no risk to the compliant ones...I mean...vaccinated ones.


   @FlameHeart

I didn't attack you. I responded with my measured reasoning for not agreeing with your authoritarian claim about those that used their Constitutional right to make their own choice. If you stand by your original post, you are saying that I don't deserve to live if I get COVID and could be placing my family and myself at risk if I do get the jab. Either way, if you were in charge, my family and I are screwed just to make you feel good about everything. I didn't see a response from you but you did double, triple down on your OP.

----------

QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> I think the problem with this type of thing, is there is never an end to it. This "pandemic" is proving that.
> 
> How about the person who used to smoke, in comparison to person who does smoke? What if Xander smokes, or, his parents smoked around him?
> 
> How about hip replacements, which is a huge drain on HC? Should there be background checks done on who did a lot of jogging or running?
> 
> I mean there really is no end to it, once your ball is rolling - and - the ball is rolling.


That old slippery slope is always rearing its ugly head.

----------

Canadianeye (07-31-2021)

----------


## UKSmartypants

> I used to know how to translate hexadecimal into binary and machine language.
> 
> I still have the books.
> 
> I have sold some books, but I don't throw important stuff away. I have the syllabi from 24 years ago, but I also have the assigned material. I need some books from 5-6 years ago. I have those courses syllabi too. One book I want back is titled "A Modern History of the Middle East". I sold it for bus fare, so that I could get to another class, after the Department of Education cut off my Pell Grant. Thank you to everyone who paid most of my education. I cannot thank you enough, even if you did not have a choice. I am in debt now because I am somewhat of an absentminded professor and didn't read the fine print.
> 
> Oh, well. It will turn out all right.


yes, in the early days you did stuff now logn forgotten, I used to know how to patch a hard drive primary boot partition, using  a hex editor, writing bytes in hex by hand


My hero is Seymour Cray, the man that invented the supercomputer the Cray X-MP. The first one he built, he toggled the bootstrap loader, invented on the fly off the top of his head,  into the computer memory  by using the toggle switches in the front panel to set binary words into a shift register then, dumping the register into RAM, byte by byte  Thats real programming.

----------

Authentic (07-31-2021)

----------


## nonsqtr

> yes, in the early days you did stuff now logn forgotten, I used to know how to patch a hard drive primary boot partition, using  a hex editor, writing bytes in hex by hand
> 
> 
> My hero is Seymour Cray, the man that invented the supercomputer the Cray X-MP. The first one he built, he toggled the bootstrap loader, invented on the fly off the top of his head,  into the computer memory  by using the toggle switches in the front panel to set binary words into a shift register then, dumping the register into RAM, byte by byte  Thats real programming.


lol - "back in the old days" they use to run entire multi-user multi-tasking operating systems in 64k of memory. RSX-11M ran fine on a pdp-11/45.

These days, the base Windows distribution has 100,000 files, and it won't even run with less than 4 gigs of RAM.

The graphics stuff takes a lot of juice. Adobe and AutoDesk and such want a minimum GTX-1080 graphics card, the card itself has an additional 8 gigs of ram over whatever the CPU has.

We used to run command line Unix on a pdp-11/34, it worked just fine. Had a gigantic 256 mB swap space.  :Grin:

----------

Authentic (07-31-2021)

----------


## UKSmartypants

> lol - "back in the old days" they use to run entire multi-user multi-tasking operating systems in 64k of memory. RSX-11M ran fine on a pdp-11/45.
> 
> These days, the base Windows distribution has 100,000 files, and it won't even run with less than 4 gigs of RAM.
> 
> The graphics stuff takes a lot of juice. Adobe and AutoDesk and such want a minimum GTX-1080 graphics card, the card itself has an additional 8 gigs of ram over whatever the CPU has.
> 
> We used to run command line Unix on a pdp-11/34, it worked just fine. Had a gigantic 256 mB swap space.



The first computer I worked on was a Dec PDP-8 with a gigantic 16k or ram and 2 megabytue disc storage. And on a teletype.....we didnt even have green screen monitors.

5 megabyte IBM Hard Drive being loaded on a plane, 1958

----------

Authentic (07-31-2021),Conservative Libertarian (07-31-2021),Foghorn (07-31-2021)

----------


## Foghorn

I learned how important rubber bands were when I took my first computer course.

Once you knock out the punch cards the next critical step is to put a rubber band around them.  I've seen more than one person reduced to tears when they dropped their card batch on the floor.


vintage-mainframe-computer-perforated-punch-cards-ibm-80-column-card-format.jpg

----------

Conservative Libertarian (07-31-2021)

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

Off topic

----------


## FlameHeart

> Why should we have to pay in any way for the care of someone who quite clearly would have been dead within a very short while but for the millions of OPM that are being spent just to make sure he can clap?


Faggot.

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> So, if I do the right thing by your claim and get the COVID vaccine so that I'm not "non-compliant" and then develop blood clots that may kill me because, as a diabetic, I'm susceptible to developing clots, is the authority mandating that I get the jab going to be held liable for my illness and/or death? I mean, I have a family that depends upon me. They deserve compensation. Well...the answer that is NO ONE WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE for my illness/death for my compelled compliance. 
> 
> So, I'm not getting the shot due to my personal assessment of risk to me and my family. It's great to sit in such judgement against others when I'm supposed to pose no risk to the compliant ones...I mean...vaccinated ones.





> @FlameHeart
> 
> I didn't attack you. I responded with my measured reasoning for not agreeing with your authoritarian claim about those that used their Constitutional right to make their own choice. If you stand by your original post, you are saying that I don't deserve to live if I get COVID and could be placing my family and myself at risk if I do get the jab. Either way, if you were in charge, my family and I are screwed just to make you feel good about everything. I didn't see a response from you but you did double, triple down on your OP.


 @FlameHeart

----------


## FlameHeart

> @FlameHeart


You mischaracterize my argument. I am not for forcing people to get the vaccine; it is their choice. I am for hospitals, a company, protecting themselves from the liability of people who refuse to take care of themselves and more relevantly, for them to turn away people who using a massive amount of resources for a severe illness whose severity could at least have been avoided- and in favor for people who do have immenent emergencies. I am against forcing someone to give up THEIR bed that they got when they got admitted BEFORE the patient who they were going to give it to, a patient who perhaps didn't take proper measures to prevent something that would have not as been as bad if they had taken necessary steps. 


You can refuse to get the vaccine all you wish. It is your health. But don't come crying to the hospitals when you get COVID-19 that may have long-lasting consequences, and don't make other people suffer for your poor decisions. None of that is authoritarian.

  @Conservative Libertarian

ETA: Considering Healthcare is not currently a right- because the U.S does NOT have socialized medicine or any of its lighter forms- this has ZERO to do with the Constitution and at this point you are pulling a straw man.

----------


## FlameHeart

I have the same views for someone who has oral cancer from constant alcohol use, or the meth head who has permanent tweaking tics, and psychosis and permanent neurological damage. The minor difference is, at least at the moment, they are essentially frequent in the ER currently than those who are presenting for COVID-19.

----------


## ruthless terrier

> But don't come crying to the hospitals when you get COVID-19 that may have long-lasting consequences and don't make other people suffer for your poor decisions.



interesting. bet you did not have those evil thoughts when people came to the hospital with the FLU.

----------

Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> interesting. bet you did not have those evil thoughts when people came to the hospital with the FLU.


People were more compliant with their providers regarding the flu vaccine. The fact that you resort to this kind of rhetoric for not making other people suffer, you call me evil for disagreeing with you, shows how much of a socialist you are. I take it you are also for nationalized healthcare. You should be ashamed of yourself.

----------


## FlameHeart

And what if that unvaxxed COVID patient dies, and their families sue you? What do you do then? Pay up, according to you people.

----------


## FlameHeart

> interesting. bet you did not have those evil thoughts when people came to the hospital with the FLU.


By the way, you responded to only to one sentence of my post. If you are going to take the time to write such asnine claims, make sure you respond to the WHOLE post. Don't just pick and choose. Thanks.

----------


## FlameHeart

What say you, @ruthless terrier?

----------


## FlameHeart

Who knew that taking responsibility for your decisions would be such a Leftist, Socialist, evil, totalitarian, Fascist thing, according to people who claim to be Conservatives.

----------


## ruthless terrier

> What say you, @ruthless terrier?


you went off on me a bit. i said what i had to say.

----------


## FlameHeart

> you went off on me a bit. i said what i had to say.


As I should have done and I had every right to do. You can't defend your position so you resort to personal attacks. You didn't "have" to say anything. Quit pretending your victim complex drivel is actually worth defending.

Have lovely afternoon.

----------


## FlameHeart

What about the woman who experiencing bleeding due to a severe uterine laceration because she had an abortion? It was her choice to get one, yes? I'm sure you all will reply "Her body; her choice. "

----------

Conservative Libertarian (07-31-2021)

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> You mischaracterize my argument. I am not for forcing people to get the vaccine; it is their choice. I am for hospitals, a company, protecting themselves from the liability of people who refuse to take care of themselves and more relevantly, for them to turn away people who using a massive amount of resources for a severe illness whose severity could at least have been avoided- and in favor for people who do have immenent emergencies. I am against forcing someone to give up THEIR bed that they got when they got admitted BEFORE the patient who they were going to give it to, a patient who perhaps didn't take proper measures to prevent something that would have not as been as bad if they had taken necessary steps. 
> 
> 
> You can refuse to get the vaccine all you wish. It is your health. But don't come crying to the hospitals when you get COVID-19 that may have long-lasting consequences, and don't make other people suffer for your poor decisions. None of that is authoritarian.
> 
>   @Conservative Libertarian
> 
> ETA: Considering Healthcare is not currently a right- because the U.S does NOT have socialized medicine or any of its lighter forms- this has ZERO to do with the Constitution and at this point you are pulling a straw man.


Young Lady,

I have paid into my health Insurance for many years at rates that I never used what I paid in. I'm at an age where I'm getting returns on my decades of investment.

What YOU have decided is that IF I don't get the vaccine, even for valid health concerns, I deserve to be denied treatment by those that thought that I should get the vaccine regardless of those valid health conditions. So, I didn't read your post incorrectly. You are saying that I deserve to die if I don't get the vaccine even though getting the vaccine could kill me with no one being held accountable for it and put my family at a huge risk. You didn't think your position through to its logical end. Remember, I have decent health insurance until biden and his commie crew takes it away so, it will be paid for without government assistance.

So, based upon what you also stated here is that if anyone's health goes awry and those that get to make the decision which conditions were self-inflicted will deny health care. You know that can apply to just about any illness that develops as we age. If you actually plan on growing old, you are going to see just how wrong your reasoning is.

Who gets to make the decision on which illnesses were self-inflicted and which ones weren't? 

I gave valid medical reasons for why I have decided not to get the shot. Until the probability of blood clotting decreases significantly, it's not a good idea for me to get a vaccine for a virus that is 99.6+% survivable. You believe that I deserve to die for not getting the shot even if getting the shot can kill me too. I didn't read your post incorrectly.

----------

MrMike (07-31-2021),Quark (07-31-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021),ruthless terrier (07-31-2021)

----------


## ruthless terrier

> As I should have done and I had every right to do. You can't defend your position so you resort to personal attacks. You didn't "have" to say anything. Quit pretending your victim complex drivel is actually worth defending.


you got me all wrong. it was sarcasm. actually I agree with you about the druggies and smokers and alcoholics. I just thought you were being a little severe with your ideas about non treatment at the hospital. but yes I get it.

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> What about the woman who experiencing bleeding due to a severe uterine laceration because she had an abortion? It was her choice to get one, yes? I'm sure you all will reply "Her body; her choice. "


The health care provider that caused her injury should absorb all costs for getting her back to health. If she went to an ILLEGAL abortion provider, then she has little recourse. A hospital can't turn her away--at least, by law, they aren't supposed to.

----------

Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Young Lady,
> 
> I have paid into my health Insurance for many years at rates that I never used what I paid in. I'm at an age where I'm getting returns on my decades of investment.
> 
> What YOU have decided is that IF I don't get the vaccine, even for valid health concerns, I deserve to be denied treatment by those that thought that I should get the vaccine regardless of those valid health conditions. So, I didn't read your post incorrectly. You are saying that I deserve to die if I don't get the vaccine even though getting the vaccine could kill me with no one being held accountable for it and put my family at a huge risk. You didn't think your position through to its logical end. Remember, I have decent health insurance until biden and his commie crew takes it away so, it will be paid for without government assistance.
> 
> So, based upon what you also stated here is that if anyone's health goes awry and those that get to make the decision which conditions were self-inflicted. You know that can apply to just about any illness that develops as we age. If you actually plan on growing old, you are going to see just how wrong your reasoning is.
> 
> Who gets to make the decision on which illnesses were self-inflicted and which ones weren't? 
> ...


Obviously, people who are immunocompromised would be an exception. The vast majority of these people are not immunocompromised.

----------


## Authentic

> First, let me start off with a story to give context. My mom has this 23-yr.-old male patient. Let's call him Xander- for privacy reasons. Xander is special needs, because he has severe cerebral palsy (he is bed-bound), blind, and has a myriad of other diagnoses. He needs a caretaker 24/7, has a special crane to help him in and out of bed, a special ramp for the car, and other equipment. He goes to PT, OT, and I think speech therapy to help increase his quality of life. He cannot speak or see; he will typically answer yes or now questions with a clap, and he will clap if he is happy. He is a sweet guy. He shows up to the Saint John's ER, his mom stating that he has a urinary tract infection. They do a UA, which comes back abnormal, and they do some cultures on the sample. It turns out, this bacterium he is infected with is resistant to all antibiotics except for two IV anti-biotics- and a pharmacist must mix up these drugs; they cannot be taken any other way. This infection is one nasty, nasty thing. The two drugs are rare, and as most outpatient pharmacies do not carry them, you gave to go to a hospital ER to receive them. So this poor kid presents to the ER; he is diagnosed, but as I remember he is given a first round of IV, but they discharge him soon after because they said they need his bed available because they are getting swamped with COVID-19 patients. They could come back in the morning and get his drugs, but that would require that he be re-admitted which is thousands of dollars just for speaking to someone at the front desk. They can't help him. Considering how aggressive this infection is, it could very well spread and cause sepsis, which is dangerous in that it can and will cause multiorgan failure.
> 
> Every hospital in Oklahoma now, every single one, is currently on divert, as of speaking to my mom last night- according to what she got from those she called, this is because of COVID-19 patients. Xander can't get a bed because of these other people. Note, the closest hospital available was in Fayetteville, AR. They are also saying that 80-90% of people who are presenting for COVID-19 are NOT vaxxed.
> 
> So can someone please tell me why are hospitals having to reject Xander, whose parents are savvy and follow treatment to a T, has to give up his bed for someone who refused vaccination but is expecting the hospital to deal with the consequences, and sucking up valuable medical resources, because of their stubbornness? 
> 
> Here is the hot take: personally, I think that evey non-vaxxed person who shows up to the ER presenting with COVID-19 needs to be diagnosed with medical non-compliance, if not turned away completely. They are becoming too much of a strain on the Healthcare system in here in Oklahoma and taking up beds that people who legitimately need for things outside of their control.


How do you know that these people have not been vaccinated?

----------

Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Really? You don't think he is valuable? You think he should be allowed to die? Where does value start and stop, in your opinion? 
> 
> It's almost as if you are Pro-Abortion, just outside the womb instead of inside it.  
> 
> 
> Xander's parents make sure he has a good life, despite his illnesses. 
> 
> What the hell is wrong with you?


I think that the objection is to OPM being spent for his care. Of course, a socialist would have no problem with doing that.

----------

FlameHeart (07-31-2021),Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> Obviously, people who are immunocompromised would be an exception. The vast majority of these people are not immunocompromised.





> *Definition of immunocompromised*
> *:* having the immune system impaired or weakened (as by drugs or illness)


The applicable list is not set in stone and someone would have to make a concrete list for such decisions to work. So far, the only exception that has been allowed is personal choice. Many people were forced by employers with not-so-good results.

My actual immune system is not compromised by that definition. However, I do have an illness that is mostly genetic (diabetes) which does increase the probability of blood clotting. Blood clotting can cause amputation and heart attacks as well as other serious problems. All of the vaccines have been identified blood clotting as a side effect. Add that with my situation and I am asking for it to happen if I "do the responsible thing" and get the jab. Right now, the powers that be are pushing for me to get the jab anyway regardless of this risk. 

I am in the situation where the vaccine is more likely to kill me than the disease. No exceptions other than exercising my Constitutional right of choice and I will probably pay dearly for it as is. The last thing we need is some commie in control of a list of allowable exceptions. Allowable exceptions are a decision between a patient and their doctor and not some robed group of elites.

----------

Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Not to mention his illnesses are outside of his control- they didn't start through his own negligence.


My birth was outside my control. I don't ask other people to spend money to keep me alive.

----------

Physics Hunter (08-01-2021),Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## UKSmartypants

> I learned how important rubber bands were when I took my first computer course.
> 
> Once you knock out the punch cards the next critical step is to put a rubber band around them.  I've seen more than one person reduced to tears when they dropped their card batch on the floor.
> 
> 
> Attachment 61737


Indeed and surreptitiously taking a card out and slipping back in somewhere  else in the pack was an excellent way to fuck up someone you didn't like.....

----------

Conservative Libertarian (07-31-2021),Foghorn (07-31-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> My birth was outside my control. I don't ask other people to spend money to keep me alive.


This post doesn't really deserve a response, but I'm going to respond just to underscore that I'm not a "callous, evil Socialist Fascist Totalitarian." 

One cannot control the circumstances of their birth.  But what they do with the gift of life determines who they are. You can't help being born, but what I have realized, is, your decisions have just as much to do with your destiny, and perhaps the destinies of other people.

----------


## FlameHeart

> you got me all wrong. it was sarcasm. actually I agree with you about the druggies and smokers and alcoholics. I just thought you were being a little severe with your ideas about non treatment at the hospital. but yes I get it.


That is bullshit and you know it.

----------


## FlameHeart

Anyone else want to call me a Communist or a Fascist or Socialist or just all-around evil? I will babysit this thread as long as I have to. You have got me good and pissed off. Fucking dumbass groupie NeoCons.

----------


## FlameHeart

Fuck you all. You give Conservatives a bad name. There is individuality and then there is insanity. You all seem to be the latter.

----------

Northern Rivers (08-01-2021)

----------


## MrMike

> First, let me start off with a story to give context. My mom has this 23-yr.-old male patient. Let's call him Xander- for privacy reasons. Xander is special needs, because he has severe cerebral palsy (he is bed-bound), blind, and has a myriad of other diagnoses. He needs a caretaker 24/7, has a special crane to help him in and out of bed, a special ramp for the car, and other equipment. He goes to PT, OT, and I think speech therapy to help increase his quality of life. He cannot speak or see; he will typically answer yes or now questions with a clap, and he will clap if he is happy. He is a sweet guy. He shows up to the Saint John's ER, his mom stating that he has a urinary tract infection. They do a UA, which comes back abnormal, and they do some cultures on the sample. It turns out, this bacterium he is infected with is resistant to all antibiotics except for two IV anti-biotics- and a pharmacist must mix up these drugs; they cannot be taken any other way. This infection is one nasty, nasty thing. The two drugs are rare, and as most outpatient pharmacies do not carry them, you gave to go to a hospital ER to receive them. So this poor kid presents to the ER; he is diagnosed, but as I remember he is given a first round of IV, but they discharge him soon after because they said they need his bed available because they are getting swamped with COVID-19 patients. They could come back in the morning and get his drugs, but that would require that he be re-admitted which is thousands of dollars just for speaking to someone at the front desk. They can't help him. Considering how aggressive this infection is, it could very well spread and cause sepsis, which is dangerous in that it can and will cause multiorgan failure.
> 
> Every hospital in Oklahoma now, every single one, is currently on divert, as of speaking to my mom last night- according to what she got from those she called, this is because of COVID-19 patients. Xander can't get a bed because of these other people. Note, the closest hospital available was in Fayetteville, AR. They are also saying that 80-90% of people who are presenting for COVID-19 are NOT vaxxed.
> 
> So can someone please tell me why are hospitals having to reject Xander, whose parents are savvy and follow treatment to a T, has to give up his bed for someone who refused vaccination but is expecting the hospital to deal with the consequences, and sucking up valuable medical resources, because of their stubbornness? 
> 
> Here is the hot take: personally, I think that evey non-vaxxed person who shows up to the ER presenting with COVID-19 needs to be diagnosed with medical non-compliance, if not turned away completely. They are becoming too much of a strain on the Healthcare system in here in Oklahoma and taking up beds that people who legitimately need for things outside of their control.


Interesting premise but the reason for the acute capacity issue seems to be RSV and not simply Covid.

"At least at Oklahoma Children's it's not because of COVID, said Dr. Cameron Mantor, chief medical officer at Oklahoma Childrens Hospital OU Health. "The last two months have seen an incredible spike in RSV cases. It's also a combination of staffing; there are times when we do not have enough staff to cover all of the beds in the hospital."



https://www.google.com/amp/s/okcfox....c-bed-shortage

----------

FlameHeart (07-31-2021)

----------


## MrMike

> Think back to the Obamma death list. The old people and the diseased get the axe. There is no beds because Xander was deemed a waste of resources. Wake the fuck up its 1984.


There is some truth to that.  In Sweden he would likely be prioritized quite low in the treatment schedule.  A bit cold blooded but it is what it is. 

One could also ask how many illegals are taking up hospital space?  They use the ER like its a PCP because they have to be treated and dont pay for it. 

So being mad because someone opts not to take rushed vaccines is a bit far fetched especially considering that vaccinated folks are catching and even dying from Covid too.

----------

Big Dummy (07-31-2021),Kodiak (07-31-2021),Madison (07-31-2021),Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> Anyone else want to call me a Communist or a Fascist or Socialist or just all-around evil? I will babysit this thread as long as I have to. You have got me good and pissed off. Fucking dumbass groupie NeoCons.


I never called you such names. I simply explained how your logic stated in the OP wasn't thought through to its conclusion. Sometimes, Conservatives get it wrong too.

----------

Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## MrMike

I’m noticing our U.S. search engines are giving different results than foreign based ones when you try to search for deaths of vaccinated from Covid.

So no matter which side of the vaccine issue you fall in, consider you/we/all are being played relative to the information we are being pumped with.  The U.S. search engines primarily push pro-vaccine message only.

----------

Quark (07-31-2021)

----------


## Quark

> You mischaracterize my argument. I am not for forcing people to get the vaccine; it is their choice. I am for hospitals, a company, protecting themselves from the liability of people who refuse to take care of themselves and more relevantly, for them to turn away people who using a massive amount of resources for a severe illness whose severity could at least have been avoided- and in favor for people who do have immenent emergencies. I am against forcing someone to give up THEIR bed that they got when they got admitted BEFORE the patient who they were going to give it to, a patient who perhaps didn't take proper measures to prevent something that would have not as been as bad if they had taken necessary steps. 
> 
> 
> You can refuse to get the vaccine all you wish. It is your health. But don't come crying to the hospitals when you get COVID-19 that may have long-lasting consequences, and don't make other people suffer for your poor decisions. None of that is authoritarian.
> 
>   @Conservative Libertarian
> 
> ETA: Considering Healthcare is not currently a right- because the U.S does NOT have socialized medicine or any of its lighter forms- this has ZERO to do with the Constitution and at this point you are pulling a straw man.


Let's take this apart. 

First, many of us are refusing to get the jab because the jab is an experimental bio-agent and nobody knows for sure what side affects there may be down the road. People are already finding side affects they don't like but the evidence I've seen or heard of so far has been anecdotal but it's convinced me not to get the jab as I've already survived COVID just fine.

Second, due to my personal health issues and because the jab is experimental bio-agent I don't want to chance an experimental jab. I have allergies to some drugs and even the drug companies have said that people with allergies should probably avoid the jab. Therefore, according to you I should be denied medical care. Some doctor/nurse you'll make.

Third, we do have the US version of socialized medicine. The national government commands and controls every facet of medical care. For example hospitals get more governments funds if the run up COVID cases. So everything is COVID.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Northern Rivers (07-31-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> I have the same views for someone who has oral cancer from constant alcohol use, or the meth head who has permanent tweaking tics, and psychosis and permanent neurological damage. The minor difference is, at least at the moment, they are essentially frequent in the ER currently than those who are presenting for COVID-19.


Boy, I sure hope you'll never be my doctor/nurse.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> Young Lady,
> 
> I have paid into my health Insurance for many years at rates that I never used what I paid in. I'm at an age where I'm getting returns on my decades of investment.
> 
> What YOU have decided is that IF I don't get the vaccine, even for valid health concerns, I deserve to be denied treatment by those that thought that I should get the vaccine regardless of those valid health conditions. So, I didn't read your post incorrectly. You are saying that I deserve to die if I don't get the vaccine even though getting the vaccine could kill me with no one being held accountable for it and put my family at a huge risk. You didn't think your position through to its logical end. Remember, I have decent health insurance until biden and his commie crew takes it away so, it will be paid for without government assistance.
> 
> So, based upon what you also stated here is that if anyone's health goes awry and those that get to make the decision which conditions were self-inflicted will deny health care. You know that can apply to just about any illness that develops as we age. If you actually plan on growing old, you are going to see just how wrong your reasoning is.
> 
> Who gets to make the decision on which illnesses were self-inflicted and which ones weren't? 
> ...


Apparently, @FlameHeart she is part of the "new" medical corps that gets to pass judgement on who gets medical care and who gets denied medical care. Back in the day doctors and nurses did not make that judgement call and treated everybody no matter the reason. Heck, even in the military the medical corps treated everybody enemy and non-enemy alike. I guess times have changed.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> Obviously, people who are immunocompromised would be an exception. The vast majority of these people are not immunocompromised.


So what, nobody should be forced to get any jab for any reason. Boy, the "new" medical corps sure as changed from my day.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> The applicable list is not set in stone and someone would have to make a concrete list for such decisions to work. So far, the only exception that has been allowed is personal choice. Many people were forced by employers with not-so-good results.
> 
> My actual immune system is not compromised by that definition. However, I do have an illness that is mostly genetic (diabetes) which does increase the probability of blood clotting. Blood clotting can cause amputation and heart attacks as well as other serious problems. All of the vaccines have been identified blood clotting as a side effect. Add that with my situation and I am asking for it to happen if I "do the responsible thing" and get the jab. Right now, the powers that be are pushing for me to get the jab anyway regardless of this risk. 
> 
> I am in the situation where the vaccine is more likely to kill me than the disease. No exceptions other than exercising my Constitutional right of choice and I will probably pay dearly for it as is. The last thing we need is some commie in control of a list of allowable exceptions. Allowable exceptions are a decision between a patient and their doctor and not some robed group of elites.


Hear! Hear!

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> This post doesn't really deserve a response, but I'm going to respond just to underscore that I'm not a "callous, evil Socialist Fascist Totalitarian." 
> 
> One cannot control the circumstances of their birth.  But what they do with the gift of life determines who they are. You can't help being born, but what I have realized, is, your decisions have just as much to do with your destiny, and perhaps the destinies of other people.


Boy you sure are a sanctimonious person. I hope I never have you for any medical care.

----------


## Quark

> Anyone else want to call me a Communist or a Fascist or Socialist or just all-around evil? I will babysit this thread as long as I have to. You have got me good and pissed off. Fucking dumbass groupie NeoCons.


I haven't called you any of that nor do I thing you necessarily are any of that. What scares me is you should be non-bias, non-judgmental, non-partisan in you medical profession. Instead you are a sanctimonious, bias, judgmental, and partisan medico. You should consider another profession. You aren't cut out for this profession.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Boy, I sure hope you'll never be my doctor/nurse.


Good. I would never want the liability of having someone like you as a patient. Not to mention the emotional labor of just having a conversation with you.

----------


## FlameHeart

> I haven't called you any of that nor do I thing you necessarily are any of that. What scares me is you should be non-bias, non-judgmental, non-partisan in you medical profession. Instead you are a sanctimonious, bias, judgmental, and partisan medico. You should consider another profession. You aren't cut out for this profession.


Bullshit. And you agree with Oceander who did call me a Socialist and a Fascist, so since you defend him, you also get to take responsibility for his behavior. I guess that is your consolation prize for me not factoring in your trashy opinion in who I become or what path I pursue.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Boy you sure are a sanctimonious person. I hope I never have you for any medical care.


Once again, I hope I never have you as a patient. You are too much of a liability.

----------


## FlameHeart

> I haven't called you any of that nor do I thing you necessarily are any of that. What scares me is you should be non-bias, non-judgmental, non-partisan in you medical profession. Instead you are a sanctimonious, bias, judgmental, and partisan medico. You should consider another profession. You aren't cut out for this profession.


Good news is, your shitty opinion is irrelevant to me getting in. I don't make my decision of my career path based on the opinions self-righteous, narcissistic little POS pricks like yourself. You don't get to tell me what career I should go into. That is MY CHOICE and only MY CHOICE. What happened with this, "not forcing anyone to get the vaccine" that you had? Or is that just for yourself? Either way, you are a fucking hypocrite.


And you know what? There are doctors, literal, degree-holding MDs and DOs, who are actually worse than me- they actually SUPPORT what Biden is doing. So I guess you wish they should all relinquish their degrees since you think so lowly and critically of me. Why don't you go talk to them instead of cursing me on an Internet political forum with your miserable little existence?


ETA: You are worse than a Socialist.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Boy you sure are a sanctimonious person. I hope I never have you for any medical care.


Good. Maybe your self-righteous, narcissistic, closed-minded ass will finally die off before I graduate. Then you won't have to worry about that. You would be doing everyone, especially medical personnel, a favor if you did.

----------


## FlameHeart

@Quark Get back here and respond you pathetic, small-minded coward. You don't get to walk away from a fight YOU CAUSED you fucking piece of shit.

----------


## FlameHeart

I can't believe I deleted my account at the other forum with having to interact with people like this. Good fucking grief.

----------


## FlameHeart

> So what, nobody should be forced to get any jab for any reason. Boy, the "new" medical corps sure as changed from my day.


Strawman. Again.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Boy, I sure hope you'll never be my doctor/nurse.


I don't see why anyone would ever want to be your doctor or nurse. You are such a miserable little troll, I would never want you anyway.

----------


## FlameHeart

For years, since I really got involved in Politics in 2016, if someone bashed me for an opinion, I would submit and, conform to their ideology. Not anymore, bitch. Does anyone else want to tell me I am not good enough or too "sanctimonious and judgemental and partisan" to become a physician like this pathetic little idiot? 

I have finally found self-confidence, and you can NEVER, ever, take that away from me. I know my worth, and it appears you people don't like that and want to bully me into submission. The more you try, the more I will double-down.

By the way, I will bet $10 that   @Quark et al. haven't had a DAY in a Bioethics course.

----------

Northern Rivers (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

I really don't care if I get banned at this point.

----------


## FlameHeart

@Quark

----------


## FlameHeart

> I’m noticing our U.S. search engines are giving different results than foreign based ones when you try to search for deaths of vaccinated from Covid.
> 
> So no matter which side of the vaccine issue you fall in, consider you/we/all are being played relative to the information we are being pumped with.  The U.S. search engines primarily push pro-vaccine message only.


Oh I do agree- information about the vaccines needs to be completely open to the public, all of it, including studies by third parties and private entities. This way, vaccines can be refined and people can put their heads together to improve what we have now. Unfortunately I think both pro-vaxx and anti-vaxx have agendas. This virus that was released to infect the unsuspecting public is now being used to further exploit the public as a political football. Not that it could be helped.

----------


## Quark

I have conversations @FlameHeart not arguments. But we do agree on one thing I would not want you as a doctor and you would not want me as a patient.

Okay you win. I'm out of here.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Northern Rivers (07-31-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> I have conversations @FlameHeart not arguments. But we do agree on one thing I would not want you as a doctor and you would not want me as a patient.
> 
> Okay you win. I'm out of here.


Yep. That is exactly why you stated that I was "not cut out" for my career path. Good riddance @Quark.

----------


## Northern Rivers

Bioethics...from the Leftist universities? Okay...but, bear in mind that some also haven't had the, I Lived A Long Life, class.  :Smiley20:

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Good. I would never want the liability of having someone like you as a patient. Not to mention the emotional labor of just having a conversation with you.


Emotional labor is a socialist and feminist term.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Northern Rivers (08-01-2021)

----------


## Northern Rivers

> Yep. That is exactly why you stated that I was "not cut out" for my career path. Good riddance @Quark.


Ball>>>home>>>game over, huh?  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## phoenyx

> @Quark Get back here and respond you [insults removed]


I'm -pretty- sure that this qualifies as a rude post, so I've reported it. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another entirely to engage in a flame war.

----------


## Northern Rivers

> _Fuck you all._ You give Conservatives a bad name. There is individuality and then there is insanity. You all seem to be the latter.


 :Smiley ROFLMAO:  You sound like my ex. She was good at that! Butcher, baker, candlestick maker....you name it!

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Northern Rivers

> I'm -pretty- sure that this qualifies as a rude post, so I've reported it. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another entirely to engage in a flame war.


You don't need to speak for @Quark or anyone else. The whole point of this snug harbour is to speak your mind...replete with insults, if need be. If Quark wants to report it...I'd be mightily surprised. You won't find a more "live and let live" on TPF.  :Smiley20: 

From what I see...getting many chuckles along the way...is that Flame doesn't realise Quark's the site cynic and pessimism is what he eats for breakfast.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Physics Hunter

> I really don't care if I get banned at this point.



You should.

----------


## Physics Hunter

> I'm -pretty- sure that this qualifies as a rude post, so I've reported it. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another entirely to engage in a flame war.



No. Real men (and Women) don't do the reporting shit for interpersonal stuff.

Unless it is a threat...

*This* is a rude post.  *Are you a snowflake or something weaker?*

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Physics Hunter

> For years, since I really got involved in Politics in 2016, if someone bashed me for an opinion, I would submit and, conform to their ideology. Not anymore, bitch. Does anyone else want to tell me I am not good enough or too "sanctimonious and judgemental and partisan" to become a physician like this pathetic little idiot? 
> 
> I have finally found self-confidence, and you can NEVER, ever, take that away from me. I know my worth, and it appears you people don't like that and want to bully me into submission. The more you try, the more I will double-down.
> 
> By the way, I will bet $10 that   @Quark et al. *haven't had a DAY in a Bioethics course.*


I shopped for a post to reply to in this Wild West thread...
I suppose that this one is as wrong as any other.

As to the *bolded*: No! Child, we are living the results of shitty bioethics courses.  In a regular checkup a doc asked me if I had firearms in the house.  Welcome to hell.

I am not trying to cow you down.  I want to point to the way.

In the OP you said:

"Here is the hot take: personally, I think that evey non-vaxxed person  who shows up to the ER presenting with COVID-19 needs to be diagnosed  with medical non-compliance, if not turned away completely. They are  becoming too much of a strain on the Healthcare system in here in  Oklahoma and taking up beds that people who legitimately need for things  outside of their control."

Simple question: What are you going to do with "Breakthough Cases", and the assholes that went out there and (ahem) threw caution to the wind after getting their vax.

There are four posts after this.

Then you will either be, or not be, a liberal.

I have hopes for you.

----------

Northern Rivers (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## QuaseMarco

> Anyone else want to call me a Communist or a Fascist or Socialist or just all-around evil? I will babysit this thread as long as I have to. You have got me good and pissed off. Fucking dumbass groupie NeoCons.


I'd say only that you are naive.

BTW: I read the ENTIRE thread.
(Had insomnia).

----------


## Common

FAIR WARNING  Cmon people calm it down, lets stop the sarcastic and nasty back and forths.

----------

phoenyx (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Emotional labor is a socialist and feminist term.


Ok, I will be more PC with you neocons. Energy. Why would I waste my time or my energy. 

The fact that you are now parsing words shows that you already lost the argument.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Bioethics...from the Leftist universities? Okay...but, bear in mind that some also haven't had the, I Lived A Long Life, class.


ORU is pretty Christian Conservative last time I checked. Of course, now you are just going to attack me for not being "Christian" in this thread, and that I should transfer to another school

----------


## FlameHeart

> I shopped for a post to reply to in this Wild West thread...
> I suppose that this one is as wrong as any other.
> 
> As to the *bolded*: No! Child, we are living the results of shitty bioethics courses.  In a regular checkup a doc asked me if I had firearms in the house.  Welcome to hell.
> 
> I am not trying to cow you down.  I want to point to the way.
> 
> In the OP you said:
> 
> ...


To the bolded- I think this is a loaded question but I will answer it anyway. I think they should be reprimanded in some sense. 

All I am saying is that people need to take responsibility for their health. Hospitals need to reinforce this. 

And the point of my story in the OP- Xander shouldn't have to have given up his bed. I have stated this many times.

----------


## FlameHeart

It seems that you people are either black, or white with this issue. Therefore, I am wasting my breath. I need to get to work on assignments and make up some Is. If you want to continue with your insults, have at it.

----------


## phoenyx

> You don't need to speak for @Quark or anyone else.


I wasn't speaking for Quark, I was speaking for myself. If some of the posts that Flameheart was writing didn't qualify as rude, I don't know what would. Looks like the the moderation agreed with me. I can understand if it's a brief flare up, but he was just going way out of line to the point that even -he- suspected he might be reprimanded.

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

Folks,

After reading this exchange, I am further convinced that we have cultivated a mind-set within the healthcare system that we old people just don't count and should be left to die when one of these young medical professionals (with no true knowledge of the world) come into our lives and passes judgement upon each and every one of us.

My sister, a recently retired nurse of 40 years has seen it coming with the millennials coming up behind her. Most were just to good to do their jobs and she was a big meanie if she expected them not to spend time on their phones while on the clock and caring for patients. Others, just hated old people and thought that they are a waste of time and resources.

A good friend of mine, a practicing physician, spent some time teaching in a med school. The millennials in med school and their entitled attitude made him walk away from something that he thought was contribution to the future and could have been if the school admin didn't back the entitled student. Requiring them to actually attend class brought on a complaint by the students that the admin backed because, "we don't want to hurt their FEELINGS." They also filed a complaint that he did provide a complete, advanced copy of an upcoming test which was also backed by admin for the same reason.

This is what us old folks have to look forward too as we move into our elder years. I say that we have to follow a ruler that military snipers do. Always have a sidearm with at least one bullet in it so that you can go out on your own terms. In their case, it was in case of capture by the enemy and being tortured to death. In our case, it will be to avoid wasting away in our own feces while some millennial is too busy on social media or deciding that we don't deserve to live.

At this time, I will say that it's not totally FlameHearts fault. This is how they have been indoctrinated by the education system. This was allowed to happen for way too long.

----------

Foghorn (08-01-2021),MrMike (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021),ruthless terrier (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

Let me just say this before I go: you people are just as bad on this issue as liberals are on abortion. No one can ever dare to disagree with you, or prepare to be attacked personally. 

I don't need to keep re-explaining to assuage your fragile egos. I said what I had to say, and that is that.

----------


## Kodiak

> Let me just say this before I go: you people are just as bad on this issue as liberals are on abortion. No one can ever dare to disagree with you, or prepare to be attacked personally. 
> 
> I don't need to keep re-explaining to assuage your fragile egos. I said what I had to say, and that is that.


Disagreement is not attack.  From what I have seen, most of the attacks especially with insults, foul language and name-calling has been from you.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),MrMike (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Boy you sure are a sanctimonious person. I hope I never have you for any medical care.





> I haven't called you any of that nor do I thing you necessarily are any of that. What scares me is you should be non-bias, non-judgmental, non-partisan in you medical profession. Instead you are a sanctimonious, bias, judgmental, and partisan medico. You should consider another profession. You aren't cut out for this profession.





> In other words, you have been properly indoctrinated.





> I remember BO's death list and you are right. The poor kid is an expendable drone of the Borg collective.





> You're saying the other people aren't valuable because you disapprove of their choices.  What makes you any the less ghoulish than me?
> 
> First-come-first-served, and if all beds are taken, junior has to take a hike or too-bad/so-sad.
> 
> Maybe we should also kick out of hospitals people who drove a little too fast and got into a wreck - after all, they could have avoided the wreck by being more careful?
> 
> What you are effectively arguing for is a comprehensive surveillance society, with the benefits of society passed out based on one's social credit score - how well, or not, one conformed to expected social norms of caution.
> 
> That's the panopticon on steroids.  A noxious blend of Foucault and the Chinese Communist Party.





> Then why wasn't this waste of space put into that bed?
> 
> Oh, wait, because the COVID-19 sufferer got assigned first.
> 
> But wait, for the cost of a thousand, this waste of space could come back to the hospital the next day and get the IV medications.
> 
> So, what you really want to do is to foist the cost of this skin-bag's care onto the rest of us.  His po' widdle parents - the ones who've been pushing the cost of his upkeep onto the rest of us for years - want us to continue to pay for him.
> 
> Apparently, you are a closet socialist.





> Bullshit.
> 
> I said nothing about entitlement.  I'm first come/first served, and only if you can afford it.
> 
> Have a nice life, you effing little fascist.  Funny how it took so long for you to pull off the camouflage and reveal your true nature.





> Hey, own it. If you're trying to deny treatment based on compliance, then you're WORSE than a Socialist, you're almost descending into Mengele territory. Just sayin.


----




> Disagreement is not attack.  From what I have seen, most of the attacks especially with insults, foul language and name-calling has been from you.

----------


## Conservative Libertarian

> Let me just say this before I go: you people are just as bad on this issue as liberals are on abortion. No one can ever dare to disagree with you, or prepare to be attacked personally. 
> 
> I don't need to keep re-explaining to assuage your fragile egos. I said what I had to say, and that is that.


I'm an engineer. I have no personality let alone an ego. I follow the science and the data to make very measured and logical decisions. I have done so for well over 30 years. You are smart but you lack experience and you have been indoctrinated in ways that you have yet to discover. Believe me, we all have had such epiphanies in our lives. We have had much more than you. Being smart and Conservative at heart, you will discover such things much faster than your contemporaries. However, due to your lack of life experience, you aren't there yet.

I used to wonder why old people soaked up all of our resources. The fact is, many like me, paid into health insurance for many years never, ever using as much as we paid in. Now I see that it is a return on a prior investment. Now, we have young people in charge that can't grasp that and just want us out of the way. As I said, it's not totally their fault. The education system made them this way. Even smart ones like yourself have trouble seeing it.

BTW, I see that you have specifically avoided most of my posts until I kept pushing for a response. I don't think that you are evil at heart and will eventually come to see to points that I made. But, it will be too little and too late for society.

----------

Foghorn (08-01-2021),MrMike (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Foghorn

Sometimes I post ideas that are not very popular but it's just an opinion.  If others disagree with me that's just fine.  In fact it's good, we're supposed to think about different sides of an issue.  Heck, half the time it allows me to learn something new anyway so I count that as a win / win.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Stumpy

> First, let me start off with a story to give context. My mom has this 23-yr.-old male patient. Let's call him Xander- for privacy reasons. Xander is special needs, because he has severe cerebral palsy (he is bed-bound), blind, and has a myriad of other diagnoses. He needs a caretaker 24/7, has a special crane to help him in and out of bed, a special ramp for the car, and other equipment. He goes to PT, OT, and I think speech therapy to help increase his quality of life. He cannot speak or see; he will typically answer yes or now questions with a clap, and he will clap if he is happy. He is a sweet guy. He shows up to the Saint John's ER, his mom stating that he has a urinary tract infection. They do a UA, which comes back abnormal, and they do some cultures on the sample. It turns out, this bacterium he is infected with is resistant to all antibiotics except for two IV anti-biotics- and a pharmacist must mix up these drugs; they cannot be taken any other way. This infection is one nasty, nasty thing. The two drugs are rare, and as most outpatient pharmacies do not carry them, you gave to go to a hospital ER to receive them. So this poor kid presents to the ER; he is diagnosed, but as I remember he is given a first round of IV, but they discharge him soon after because they said they need his bed available because they are getting swamped with COVID-19 patients. They could come back in the morning and get his drugs, but that would require that he be re-admitted which is thousands of dollars just for speaking to someone at the front desk. They can't help him. Considering how aggressive this infection is, it could very well spread and cause sepsis, which is dangerous in that it can and will cause multiorgan failure.
> 
> Every hospital in Oklahoma now, every single one, is currently on divert, as of speaking to my mom last night- according to what she got from those she called, this is because of COVID-19 patients. Xander can't get a bed because of these other people. Note, the closest hospital available was in Fayetteville, AR. They are also saying that 80-90% of people who are presenting for COVID-19 are NOT vaxxed.
> 
> So can someone please tell me why are hospitals having to reject Xander, whose parents are savvy and follow treatment to a T, has to give up his bed for someone who refused vaccination but is expecting the hospital to deal with the consequences, and sucking up valuable medical resources, because of their stubbornness? 
> 
> Here is the hot take: personally, I think that evey non-vaxxed person who shows up to the ER presenting with COVID-19 needs to be diagnosed with medical non-compliance, if not turned away completely. They are becoming too much of a strain on the Healthcare system in here in Oklahoma and taking up beds that people who legitimately need for things outside of their control.


What about illegals coming over the border with Covid, then getting dispersed throughout the country? That's happening, you know.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## ruthless terrier

> That is bullshit and you know it.



gordon ramsay.gif

----------


## FlameHeart

> What about illegals coming over the border with Covid, then getting dispersed throughout the country? That's happening, you know.


They need to be deported ASAP.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021),Stumpy (08-01-2021)

----------


## MrMike

> ----


If you go back and really read your responses you might feel a bit odd in comparison from what you said to others versus what you considered attacks.  Just my opinion on it.

Hang in there!

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Ok, I will be more PC with you neocons. Energy. Why would I waste my time or my energy. 
> 
> The fact that you are now parsing words shows that you already lost the argument.


Lost? I'm not the one who wants to implement death panels and a social credit system. Whether you are aware of it or not, that is where your thinking in this thread will ultimately lead.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),MrMike (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> They need to be deported ASAP.


What about unvaccinated? Should they be deported? Wouldn't that be a more humane solution to the problem that you perceive than denying them hospital beds?

----------


## Stumpy

> What about unvaccinated? Should they be deported? Wouldn't that be a more humane solution to the problem that you perceive than denying them hospital beds?


Why not make them wear Jewish Covid star armbands on their sleeves?

----------

Authentic (08-01-2021),Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## MrMike

> Lost? I'm not the one who wants to implement death panels and a social credit system. Whether you are aware of it or not, that is where your thinking in this thread will ultimately lead.


I agree.  The very penalties he wishes to apply to others would in fact result in his referenced CP-afflicted associate being placed at the bottom of the treatment (triage) priority list.  The fact the C-Palsy affliction wasn't a choice for the young man will not matter to those cold-blooded schedulers who score/rank who should get treatment first (or at all).  His life would be considered inconsequential relative to others given his low contribution capabilities to society and his already poor quality of life.

Sucks, but that's what happens when you go down that rabbit hole...

----------

Authentic (08-01-2021),Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## MrMike

> Why not make them wear Jewish Covid star armbands on their sleeves?


Better yet... just turn them back at the border? or deport those here illegally?  You know.. as it should be done in a sovereign nation.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Why not make them wear Jewish Covid star armbands on their sleeves?


In preparation for deportation or internment? That sounds national _and_ socialist!

----------


## Authentic

Armband or patch idea. A needle in a circle with a \

----------


## Stumpy

> Better yet... just turn them back at the border? or deport those here illegally?  You know.. as it should be done in a sovereign nation.


I was referring to unvaxxed Americans. I'm not getting a vaccine, I got the Covid and beat it. That's better than getting a vaccination.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),MrMike (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

Socialist ideas always sound good until you have to implement them. When that happens, you wind up with Stalin's, Mao's, and Pol Pot's millions dead.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),MrMike (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021),Stumpy (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> ORU is pretty Christian Conservative last time I checked. Of course, now you are just going to attack me for not being "Christian" in this thread, and that I should transfer to another school


I don't think anyone had that in mind. Oral Roberts is a solid school. To get any more conservative from a Christian standpoint you would have to move to Greenville or Pensacola.

----------


## Stumpy

> Armband or patch idea. A needle in a circle with a \


Nevermind.

----------


## Authentic

> I don't think anyone had that in mind. Oral Roberts is a solid school. To get any more conservative from a Christian standpoint you would have to move to Greenville or Pensacola.


Of course, the schools that I have in mind monitor their students online activity and would sanction the OP for some of the language she has used in this thread.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Stumpy

> I don't think anyone had that in mind. Oral Roberts is a solid school. To get any more conservative from a Christian standpoint you would have to move to Greenville or Pensacola.


Pensacola LA?

----------


## MrMike

> I was referring to unvaxxed Americans. I'm not getting a vaccine, I got the Covid and beat it. That's better than getting a vaccination.


Got it!  Sorry... I was thinking of the unvaxxed illegals being distributed across USA by Democrats who demand we all be vaxxed yet seed infected illegals around our nation.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021),Stumpy (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> Pensacola LA?


Pensacola, Florida.

----------


## Stumpy

> Pensacola, Florida.


Pensacola, Lower Alabama.

 :Sofa:

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Stumpy

> Got it!  Sorry... I was thinking of the unvaxxed illegals being distributed across USA by Democrats who demand we all be vaxxed yet seed infected illegals around our nation.


Yeah, this is Clown World.

----------

MrMike (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> What about unvaccinated? Should they be deported? Wouldn't that be a more humane solution to the problem that you perceive than denying them hospital beds?


No. But they should be able to seek Healthcare somewhere else if they wish, if that location is open. 

The whole point of this is getting people to take responsibility.

----------


## Authentic

> Pensacola, Lower Alabama.


It's on the Alabama border, but the college is in Pensacola. I think that students under a certain age need a pass to travel across state lines. They even regululate what beach you can be on. There is a bridge to the beach. At the road along the water, men have to turn one way and women have to go the other. And you can't go alone: you have to be in a minimum sized group of the same gender or be with an upperclassman chaperone of the same gender.

----------


## Stumpy

> It's on the Alabama border, but the college is in Pensacola. I think that students under a certain age need a pass to travel across state lines. They even regululate what beach you can be on. There is a bridge to the beach. At the road along the water, men have to turn one way and women have to go the other. And you can't go alone: you have to be in a minimum sized group of the same gender or be with an upperclassman chaperone of the same gender.


I bet you're a riot at parties!  :Thinking:

----------


## Authentic

> No. But they should be able to seek Healthcare somewhere else if they wish, if that location is open. 
> 
> The whole point of this is getting people to take responsibility.


Responsible as in taking the vaccine? What about people with the vaccine who are getting COVID-19?

Yay! You took the vaccine. You have the same thing as Mr. Unvaccinated but you were "responsible". You are thus more valuable and get to move to the head of the line!

Do you disagree that this is a social credit system that you want? What other "responsible" behaviors do you want to reward? What happens if the left gets to decide what is "responsible"?

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> I bet you're a riot at parties!


Students at that school don't have time for parties. They have to attend chapel meetings. IIRC, dancing is forbidden and you can't listen to "mainstream" music.

----------


## Authentic

Oh, and alongside all this control of fraternizing with the opposite sex, homosexuality is expressly forbidden.

The school has gender segregated elevators.

----------


## Quark

> You don't need to speak for @Quark or anyone else. The whole point of this snug harbour is to speak your mind...replete with insults, if need be. If Quark wants to report it...I'd be mightily surprised. You won't find a more "live and let live" on TPF. 
> 
> From what I see...getting many chuckles along the way...is that Flame doesn't realise Quark's the site cynic and pessimism is what he eats for breakfast.


That's me the cynical pessimist.  :Thumbsup20: 

The point being that certain professions by there very nature cannot be judgmental, bias, partisan, or sanctimonious and serving all peoples regardless of race, creed, color, religion, life style, etc. must be done.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> Folks,
> 
> After reading this exchange, I am further convinced that we have cultivated a mind-set within the healthcare system that we old people just don't count and should be left to die when one of these young medical professionals (with no true knowledge of the world) come into our lives and passes judgement upon each and every one of us.
> 
> My sister, a recently retired nurse of 40 years has seen it coming with the millennials coming up behind her. Most were just to good to do their jobs and she was a big meanie if she expected them not to spend time on their phones while on the clock and caring for patients. Others, just hated old people and thought that they are a waste of time and resources.
> 
> A good friend of mine, a practicing physician, spent some time teaching in a med school. The millennials in med school and their entitled attitude made him walk away from something that he thought was contribution to the future and could have been if the school admin didn't back the entitled student. Requiring them to actually attend class brought on a complaint by the students that the admin backed because, "we don't want to hurt their FEELINGS." They also filed a complaint that he did provide a complete, advanced copy of an upcoming test which was also backed by admin for the same reason.
> 
> This is what us old folks have to look forward too as we move into our elder years. I say that we have to follow a ruler that military snipers do. Always have a sidearm with at least one bullet in it so that you can go out on your own terms. In their case, it was in case of capture by the enemy and being tortured to death. In our case, it will be to avoid wasting away in our own feces while some millennial is too busy on social media or deciding that we don't deserve to live.
> ...


 You have hit the nail on the head! It use to be "do no harm" in the medical corps. Now it's pass judgement and be sanctimonious.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> I'm an engineer. I have no personality let alone an ego. I follow the science and the data to make very measured and logical decisions. I have done so for well over 30 years. You are smart but you lack experience and you have been indoctrinated in ways that you have yet to discover. Believe me, we all have had such epiphanies in our lives. We have had much more than you. Being smart and Conservative at heart, you will discover such things much faster than your contemporaries. However, due to your lack of life experience, you aren't there yet.
> 
> I used to wonder why old people soaked up all of our resources. The fact is, many like me, paid into health insurance for many years never, ever using as much as we paid in. Now I see that it is a return on a prior investment. Now, we have young people in charge that can't grasp that and just want us out of the way. As I said, it's not totally their fault. The education system made them this way. Even smart ones like yourself have trouble seeing it.
> 
> BTW, I see that you have specifically avoided most of my posts until I kept pushing for a response. I don't think that you are evil at heart and will eventually come to see to points that I made. But, it will be too little and too late for society.


You are right! At 74 boy have I seen the light over the years.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> They need to be deported ASAP.


On deporting the illegals, I agree 100%.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Madison (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> The school has gender segregated elevators.



Not really.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Responsible as in taking the vaccine? What about people with the vaccine who are getting COVID-19?
> 
> Yay! You took the vaccine. You have the same thing as Mr. Unvaccinated but you were "responsible". You are thus more valuable and get to move to the head of the line!
> 
> Do you disagree that this is a social credit system that you want? What other "responsible" behaviors do you want to reward? What happens if the left gets to decide what is "responsible"?


So you think that someone without COVID-19 like Xander must give up his bed, because he can't contribute as much to society, for someone who took their health frivilously? Despite having gotten there before this potential patient and not be in a condition for discharge? Good to know.

Dr. Ben Carson, a Socialist according to you, said this morning on Fox that the vaccines are effective and encourages people to get vaccinated. But I guess he is a socialist now.

----------


## Quark

> So you think that someone without COVID-19 like Xander must give up his bed, because he can't contribute as much to society, for someone who took their health frivilously? Despite having gotten there before this potential patient and not be in a condition for discharge? Good to know.
> 
> Dr. Ben Carson, a Socialist according to you, said this morning on Fox that the vaccines are effective and encourages people to get vaccinated. But I guess he is a socialist now.


Dr. Carson is just spouting the orthodox government propaganda. This experimental bio-agent has not been thoroughly tested and anybody getting the jab is a human guinea pig.

----------

Kodiak (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Dr. Carson is just spouting the orthodox government propaganda. This experimental bio-agent has not been thoroughly tested and anybody getting the jab is a human guinea pig.


Guess you hope that he was never your doctor, either.

----------


## FlameHeart

> What about unvaccinated? Should they be deported? Wouldn't that be a more humane solution to the problem that you perceive than denying them hospital beds?


Strawman and red herring to an extent. You are doing the same thing the l.eft loves to do, and you are no better than them. You are being ridiculous.

He wasn't denied a hospital bed. His bed was taken from him, and you would know that if you actually read the OP instead of putting your fingers in your ears and screamed and threw a temper tantrum like a 3 year old.

Vaccine passports are more like the case you describe, even if you are being dramatic, and I'm not for those.

----------


## Quark

> Guess you would hope that he was never your doctor, either.


Actually, in this day and age of "Wokeism" I try to have as little to do with the medical corps as possible. I have very little confidence in the medical corps after this CCP virus crap and you would be surprised the number of people I run into of all ages who think the same way.

The medical corps have lost all creditability especially the ones who march in lock step to the official government position.

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> Strawman and red herring to an extent. You are doing the same thing the l.eft loves to do, and you are no better than them. You are being ridiculous.
> 
> He wasn't denied a hospital bed. His bed was taken from him, and you would know that if you actually read the OP instead of putting your fingers in your ears and screamed and threw a temper tantrum like a 3 year old.
> 
> Vaccine passports are more like the case you describe, even if you are being dramatic, and I'm not for those.


Okay let me see if I understand this. You are against your friend's bed being given for a COVID patient but you are okay with taking a COVID patient's bed for your friend?

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),ruthless terrier (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Actually, in this day and age of "Wokeism" I try to have as little to do with the medical corps as possible. I have very little confidence in the medical corps after this CCP virus crap and you would be surprised the number of people I run into of all ages who think the same way.
> 
> The medical corps have lost all creditability especially the ones who march in lock step to the official government position.



Then I rest my case. Please don't ever show up to a hospital or a clinic if you are sick.

You would be surprised with the number of nurses and doctors who are pro-vaxx and urging people to get vaxxed. Every doctor I have talked to in the past year has stated and urged people to get vaxxed. This includes my own. There are some physicians who won't even TALK to you unless you are vaxxed or wearing a mask.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Okay let me see if I understand this. You are against your friend's bed for a COVID patient but you are okay with taking a COVID patient's bed for your friend?


1. He is not my friend. I don't know him. Read the OP.

2. I said that I am for turning away a person who refused to vaccinate because they believed fear-mongering about the vaccines (not for an underlying condition that would interact negatively with the vaccine), BEFORE they are admitted. Xander was already admitted, until they forced him to leave because of a potential patient with COVID-19 might need that bed. Just to be clear for your poor reading comprehension, in this scenario the person with COVID-19 hasn't been admitted yet.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Okay let me see if I understand this. You are against your friend's bed for a COVID patient but you are okay with taking a COVID patient's bed for your friend?


And of course, if I link to any of the studies that I have found through PubMed or other medical journals, you are just going to dismiss them as Government flying monkeys. It really is futile conversing with you at this point.

----------


## Authentic

Xander could have got his meds outside the hospital. Xander is a red herring designed to make us feel sympathy for a blind, mute, bed bound person and be shamed into getting the vaccine.

Yet, FlameHeart accuses us of liberal tactics. Pot, kettle.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

FlameHeart should be ashamed of herself for using Xander for political purposes.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

We are all supposed to suspend logic and reason and join Xander in a round of "If You Are Happy And You Know It, Clap Your Hands!"

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Xander could have got his meds outside the hospital. Xander is a red herring designed to make us feel sympathy for a blind, mute, bed bound petson and be shamed into getting the vaccine.
> 
> Yet, FlameHeart accuses us of liberal tactics. Pot, kettle.



So where did you get your MD again? Xander had to be monitored, even after he was diagnosed, so he could be stabilized- because sepsis is very real, and UTIs have been known to have a negative effect on a person's cognition and mental health (word salad, confusion, etc.) especially in older adults. 

I'm not shaming you into getting anything. Go ahead and not get the vaccine, it is your health. I'm just saying don't expect other people to pick up the pieces if you knowingly make a bad decision.

----------


## Authentic

> I'm not shaming you into getting anything. Go ahead and not get the vaccine, it is your health. I'm just saying don't expect other people to pick up the pieces if you knowingly make a bad decision.


I already have said that I do not expect other people to spend money to keep me alive.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> I already have said that I do not expect other people to spend money to keep me alive.


Then quit the accusation that I am shaming you. You also did not respond to my first paragraph, which responded to your assertion that I am red herring.

----------


## Authentic

> And of course, if I link to any of the studies that I have found through PubMed or other medical journals, you are just going to dismiss them as Government flying monkeys. It really is futile conversing with you at this point.


Well, why don't you show us the articles instead of appealing to authority by namedropping journal portals?

----------


## Authentic

> Then quit the accusation that I am shaming you. You also did not respond to my first paragraph, which responded to your assertion that I am red herring.


What is there to respond to? You said earlier that his meds were only available in the hospital. Someone who I have reason to believe knows what they are talking about said that any medication that you get in a hospital can be acquired on the outside. 

Now you are telling us that Xander needs to be monitored so that he doesn't go into septic shock and trying to impeach me by requiring me to have an MD before I can enter the discussion.

I got news for you - anyone can go into septic shock. It does not require being blind, mute, and bed bound with palsy. That makes Xander a sympathetic foil to shame people into getting the vaccine. If you didn't mean to use him as a red herring, why bring him up at all?

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> Then I rest my case. Please don't ever show up to a hospital or a clinic if you are sick.
> 
> You would be surprised with the number of nurses and doctors who are pro-vaxx and urging people to get vaxxed. Every doctor I have talked to in the past year has stated and urged people to get vaxxed. This includes my own. There are some physicians who won't even TALK to you unless you are vaxxed or wearing a mask.


Fortunately, I live in a RED state. But that doesn't surprise me as the Communists have taken over the country and the medical corps. It's is interesting that the medical corps is now operating under the CCP social credit score system even if the CCP vaccine could kill you.

----------

QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

----------


## Quark

> And of course, if I link to any of the studies that I have found through PubMed or other medical journals, you are just going to dismiss them as Government flying monkeys. It really is futile conversing with you at this point.


You may have a point. I am more appt to follow Frontline Doctors before I follow or listen to government propagandists. Communism has invaded so much of our society that no one can believe much of anything they are told by anyone any more.

----------

Authentic (08-01-2021),Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Fall River

> They deserve treatment, but they should be diagnosed as medically NCB. Also, one of the issues in the OP is about this kid having to give up HIS bed for a potential patient. 
> 
> So what do you say about hospitals having to turn people away due to being at capacity? You don't have anything, that's what.



If you believe it's unfair, like malpractice, there should be plenty of lawyers willing to bring a law suit against the hospital.  If they say, "No, you don't have a case."  Then there's no point complaining.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## FlameHeart

> Well, why don't you show us the articles instead of appealing to authority by namedropping journal portals?


Here you go: Study: 2 COVID vaccine doses much more effective than 1 against Delta | CIDRAP

The article states that the efficacy rate of a two-shot Pfizer vaccine is in the 80th percentile against the Delta variant, as opposed to the Alpha variant, which is in the 90's. 

Allergic Reactions Including Anaphylaxis After Receipt of the First Dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine - United States, December 14-23, 2020 - PubMed

"During December 14–23, 2020, after administration of *1,893,360 first  doses of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine (1,177,527 doses in females,  648,327 doses in males, and 67,506 doses missing sex)*, reports of 4,393  *(0.2%)* adverse events after receipt of the vaccine had been submitted to  VAERS. Among these, 175 case reports were identified for further review  as possible cases of severe allergic reaction, including anaphylaxis,  based on descriptions of signs and symptoms; 21 of these reports met the  Brighton Collaboration case definition criteria for anaphylaxis,  corresponding to an initial estimated rate of 11.1 cases per million  doses administered." 

^Regarding the possibility of anaphylaxis as a possible complication of the Pfizer-Biotech vaccine.

Bellâs Palsy after second dose of Pfizer COVID-19 vaccination in a patient with history of recurrent Bellâs palsy

Pfizer and Moderna vaccines on the potential side effect of Bell's palsy, which is a condition that involves the 7th cranial nerve, or the facial nerve:

"In both the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine and Moderna COVID-19  Vaccine clinical trials, incidents of Bell’s Palsy were cited as  medically attended adverse events (MAAE). In the Pfizer-BioNTech  COVID-19 Vaccine trials, Bell’s Palsy was reported by 4 vaccine  participants. From Dose 1 through 1 month after Dose 2, there were 3  reports of Bell’s Palsy in the vaccine group and none in the placebo  group. This observed frequency of reported event is consistent with the  expected background rate in the general population, which suggests that a  causal relationship to the vaccine cannot be made (Pfizer-BioechD-19, 2020).  In the Moderna trials, 3 vaccine recipients and 1 placebo recipient  reported this MAAE. Considering the temporal association and biological  plausibility, FDA recommends surveillance for cases of Bell’s Palsy with  deployment of the Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine into larger populations (ModernaD-19 Vaccine, 2020). Such recommendation is not associated with the Pfizer vaccine."

This woman had three previous cases of Bell's palsy, one in 2003, one in 2013, and the final one in 2018. She recieved the Pfizer vaccine. It is worth noting that the vaccine tends to take 14 days to take effect, and that some people experience blood clotting in that time- like the woman from the Gateway Pundit article who has lost her legs and is going to lose her hands- so even then, if you get the vaccine you still have to wear a mask while your immune system is building up a response. 

After she was treated: 

"Prednisone and an antiviral agent were started promptly. Besides the one  time that her temperature reached 99.1F, she has always been afebrile.  Her symptoms began to improve by Day 14." This isn't a permanent effect, and it seems as though it was treated relatively easily. Her physical was normal otherwise and she was without fever "aside from the time she reached 99.1 F." 

Considering Bell's Palsy has been a major concern among COVID-19 vaccines, this should put some fears to rest. It's possible that the vaccine caused a flare up of an underlying condition; however, that condition was treated in outpatient.

Myocarditis Following Immunization With mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines in Members of the US Military | Cardiology | JAMA Cardiology | JAMA Network
Regarding cardiomyopathy in association with the COVID-19 vaccines.

"The number of doses of mRNA COVID-19 vaccine administered by the Military Health System through April 30, 2021, is shown in Table 3.  Overall, 2 810 000 doses were administered; 1 065 000 second doses were  administered; 544 000 second doses were administered to military  service members; and 436 000 second doses were administered to male  military service members. The expected number of myocarditis cases  occurring in a 30-day period after vaccination may be estimated using an  international incidence of 22 cases per 100 000 person-years5 or a US incidence of 1 to 10 cases per 100 000 person-years.6"

So considering this is per 100k participants, this side effect seems to be pretty rare. This still needs to be studied, and this study needs to be replicated; however, it seems as though it's a safe bet. Still, it would be better if the numbers were lowered, and that is why I am for the vaccines being refined. Apparently inflammation of the heart, as this condition translates into, is due to a preservative found in the vaccine. If the vaccine is handled carefully enough, they can just remove the preservative and hopefully the incidence of myocarditis would be much, much lower.

Many people are concerned about inflammation following both the vaccines and the virus, but COVID-19 has highly been linked to inflammation of the lungs as an aftermath, as well as blood clotting in the limbs to the point where it is limb-threatening. Again, the vaccines are not perfect, but, no vaccine is and the disease it is supposed to treat is much worse than getting the vaccine. It seems as though Moderna and Pfizer are in the lead for best overall outcome, and Astra-Zeneca is following behind in 3rd. I would say that Johnson and Johnson is among the worst.

Your turn.

----------


## FlameHeart

> What is there to respond to? You said earlier that his meds were only available in the hospital. Someone who I have reason to believe knows what they are talking about said that any medication that you get in a hospital can be acquired on the outside. 
> 
> Now you are telling us that Xander needs to be monitored so that he doesn't go into septic shock and trying to impeach me by requiring me to have an MD before I can enter the discussion.
> 
> I got news for you - anyone can go into septic shock. It does not require being blind, mute, and bed bound with palsy. That makes Xander a sympathetic foil to shame people into getting the vaccine. If you didn't mean to use him as a red herring, why bring him up at all?


And anyone can have an adverse reaction to the vaccine, I guess. No one here is perfect. Both sides are flawed, and further show that extremism is going to hurt everyone.

The only reason why I brought up Xander was to show how other patients are being kicked out and being neglected in favor of these people. You say that you want everyone to be treated fairly, or your cohorts did? Why are other people's health being put on the back burner in favor of something that could have been prevented? Why was his health care, despite being there first, being denied in favor of someone else? That is what I have issue with.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Fortunately, I live in a RED state. But that doesn't surprise me as the Communists have taken over the country and the medical corps. It's is interesting that the medical corps is now operating under the CCP social credit score system even if the CCP vaccine could kill you.


Pediatricians especially have been doing it for years. Mine said, way back in the early 2000's, that she won't accept your child if you refuse them to get vaxxed. So I guess Communism has been infecting everything since then, as well as the social credit system. Who would have thought?

I am not aware of a CCP vaccine. This is news to me. I am also not aware of the vaccines having an epidemic of their own killing people. Please cite this information.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Fortunately, I live in a RED state. But that doesn't surprise me as the Communists have taken over the country and the medical corps. It's is interesting that the medical corps is now operating under the CCP social credit score system even if the CCP vaccine could kill you.


I live in a RED state too. Ruby-red Oklahoma- the only state that went completely RED in the 2020 election.

----------


## FlameHeart

> If you believe it's unfair, like malpractice, there should be plenty of lawyers willing to bring a law suit against the hospital.  If they say, "No, you don't have a case."  Then there's no point complaining.


Oh believe me, they are.

----------


## Authentic

> I live in a RED state too. Ruby-red Oklahoma- the only state that went completely RED in the 2020 election.


Calling Oklahoma red is racist. It used to be Indian Territory.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

Oklahoma means "red people".

CANCELED!

----------


## Authentic

> And anyone can have an adverse reaction to the vaccine, I guess. No one here is perfect. Both sides are flawed, and further show that extremism is going to hurt everyone.
> 
> The only reason why I brought up Xander was to show how other patients are being kicked out and being neglected in favor of these people. You say that you want everyone to be treated fairly, or your cohorts did? Why are other people's health being put on the back burner in favor of something that could have been prevented? Why was his health care, despite being there first, being denied in favor of someone else? That is what I have issue with.


Did Xander live?

----------


## FlameHeart

> Oklahoma means "red people".
> 
> CANCELED!


Are you going to read and reply to any of the articles I got for you, or are you just going to flail around like a gold fish about parsing words?

----------


## FlameHeart

> Did Xander live?


He is still pretty agitated. He did get his meds eventually. He is stabilized, but he is not improving, either.

----------


## Authentic

> Are you going to read and reply to any of the articles I got for you, or are you just going to flail around like a gold fish about parsing words?


Sheesh lady, it takes times to read those things, let alone to respond. 

Give me some.

----------


## Authentic

> Sheesh lady, it takes times to read those things, let alone to respond. 
> 
> Give me some.


Besides, I need coffee.

----------


## FlameHeart

> Sheesh lady, it takes times to read those things, let alone to respond. 
> 
> Give me some.


Well?

----------


## FlameHeart

I love how everyone was so pissed off in the beginning and so willing to vocalize how much of a Socialist and Fascist and judgemental, sanctimonious, evil person I am, but suddenly after I posted the links to the articles I was looking at, they are no where to be found. 

If you are going to do ad hominem, make sure you keep responding throughout the thread. Don't be a coward and flee the moment you can't support your posts.

----------


## FlameHeart

@Authentic

----------


## Authentic

> @Authentic


What?

----------


## FlameHeart

> What?


You asked for the articles. Are you going to respond?

And are you going to back up yours and others' claims that the vaccines are causing great harm and killing people?

----------


## Northern Rivers

> I'm -pretty- sure that this qualifies as a rude post, so I've reported it. It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's another entirely to engage in a flame war.


Karen? Iz zat you?  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

----------

Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

> You asked for the articles. Are you going to respond?


I have read the first one only, and had to deal with somewhat of a medical emergency at the house, so I haven't got to the others.

You do think that medical emergencies take precedence over reading your selected literature, don't you?

----------


## Authentic

As for the first article, it essentially proves what I have been saying, that the vaccines were not fully tested. They didn't even know how many doses would be effective. The researchers admit that their study is inadequate to make predictions.

----------


## phoenyx

> Karen? Iz zat you?


Don't even know who that is.

----------


## Authentic

I have read just your blurbs from the other three and am not sure that it is worth my time to read the full articles. They seem to be saying that side effects are possible, some may be fatal, but the fatality rate is within acceptable bounds. Am I right?

If so, what do you think my response will be? I don't think that there are any acceptable bounds. If you can't guarantee that I won't die from taking your vaccine and make me sign a promise that my estate won't sue if I do, then why should I risk it?

----------


## FlameHeart

> I have read just your blurbs from the other three and am not sure that it is worth my time to read the full articles. They seem to be saying that side effects are possible, some may be fatal, but the fatality rate is within acceptable bounds. Am I right?
> 
> If so, what do you think my response will be? I don't think that there are any acceptable bounds. If you can't guarantee that I won't die from taking your vaccine and make me sign a promise that my estate won't sue if I do, then why should I risk it?


So you don't think other vaccines have side effects?

----------


## Authentic

> So you don't think other vaccines have side effects?


I don't get the flu vaccine. I don't travel to places that require any other vaccine. I have not had a vaccine since I was old enough to make my own medical decisions and I won't get any now.

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Quark (08-01-2021)

----------


## Authentic

Do you know how many viral diseases we know how to cure?

Zero.

----------

Quark (08-01-2021)

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## Thom Paine

> I love how everyone was so pissed off in the beginning and so willing to vocalize how much of a Socialist and Fascist and judgemental, sanctimonious, evil person I am, but suddenly after I posted the links to the articles I was looking at, they are no where to be found.      If you are going to do ad hominem, make sure you keep responding throughout the thread. Don't be a coward and flee the moment you can't support your posts.


A completely off topic observation of your argument ...  To some, Maybe you are presenting things worthy consideration and some may be doing just that;  Your rhetoric seems angry that you are no longer being pursued.    :Dontknow: 
No reply expected...  don't want to derail the thread ...
Make a good night F !

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## QuaseMarco

> Dr. Carson is just spouting the orthodox government propaganda. This experimental bio-agent has not been thoroughly tested and anybody getting the jab is a human guinea pig.


Carson wants to say the right things so he can be part of the coming Trump administration.  :Sofa:

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Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> I don't get the flu vaccine. I don't travel to places that require any other vaccine. I have not had a vaccine since I was old enough to make my own medical decisions and I won't get any now.


You never had the Tetanus, or Diphtheria, Pertussis,  Measles/Mumps/Rubella, Polio, or Chicken Pox vaccines when you were a kid?

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## Authentic

> You never had the Tetanus, or Diphtheria, Pertussis,  Measles/Mumps/Rubella, Polio, or Chicken Pox vaccines when you were a kid?


Are you illiterate, or do you think a "kid' is old enough to make his own medical decisions?

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## QuaseMarco

> Actually, in this day and age of "Wokeism" I try to have as little to do with the medical corps as possible. I have very little confidence in the medical corps after this CCP virus crap and you would be surprised the number of people I run into of all ages who think the same way.
> 
> The medical corps have lost all creditability especially the ones who march in lock step to the official government position.


I have had a distrust of doctors and some vaccines and medicines way before this Covid shit show.
What is happening now is a culmination of years of medical system rot.
One needs to be very involved in their healthcare...... For the very elderly who do not have advocates it is very bad.

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Quark (08-01-2021)

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## Authentic

As for chicken pox, I got it when I was 16. I either never had a vaccine or it was ineffective. I don't exactly keep my vaccine records on file, nor would I quote them to some stranger on the internet.

HIPAA, ya know.

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QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Quark

> And anyone can have an adverse reaction to the vaccine, I guess. No one here is perfect. Both sides are flawed, and further show that extremism is going to hurt everyone.
> 
> The only reason why I brought up Xander was to show how other patients are being kicked out and being neglected in favor of these people. You say that you want everyone to be treated fairly, or your cohorts did? Why are other people's health being put on the back burner in favor of something that could have been prevented? Why was his health care, despite being there first, being denied in favor of someone else? That is what I have issue with.


Your thinking is flawed. Not everybody can get the jab because of health issues and COVID cannot be prevented jab or no jab. 

And everybody is being denied health care because of COVID. I know of a 4 year old that has asthma who was denied oxygen because of COVID. This is standard operating procedures in the time of COVID

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OneDumbBlonde (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Quark

> Pediatricians especially have been doing it for years. Mine said, way back in the early 2000's, that she won't accept your child if you refuse them to get vaxxed. So I guess Communism has been infecting everything since then, as well as the social credit system. Who would have thought?
> 
> I am not aware of a CCP vaccine. This is news to me. I am also not aware of the vaccines having an epidemic of their own killing people. Please cite this information.


Communism has infected the nation since the end of the 19th century and early 20th century. The CCP vaccine is the Chinese Communist Party vaccine. The virus and vaccine is a product of the Chinese Communist Party.

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## QuaseMarco

:Deadhorse: .............................................. :Dontknow:

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Kodiak (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021),Thom Paine (08-01-2021)

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## Quark

> I have read just your blurbs from the other three and am not sure that it is worth my time to read the full articles. They seem to be saying that side effects are possible, some may be fatal, but the fatality rate is within acceptable bounds. Am I right?
> 
> If so, what do you think my response will be? I don't think that there are any acceptable bounds. If you can't guarantee that I won't die from taking your vaccine and make me sign a promise that my estate won't sue if I do, then why should I risk it?


Right on! That's a major problem. The jab is so safe that you have to sign your life away to get the jab.

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Authentic (08-01-2021),QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Are you illiterate, or do you think a "kid' is old enough to make his own medical decisions?


Did you experience any adverse side effects from those vaccines?

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## FlameHeart

> Your thinking is flawed. Not everybody can get the jab because of health issues and COVID cannot be prevented jab or no jab. 
> 
> And everybody is being denied health care because of COVID. I know of a 4 year old that has asthma who was denied oxygen because of COVID. This is standard operating procedures in the time of COVID


Was I talking to you?

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## Quark

> So you don't think other vaccines have side effects?


The vaccines do but you don't have to sign your life away to get them and you can sue the companies for liability. Plus the other vaccines are voluntary not mandate.

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QuaseMarco (08-01-2021)

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## Authentic

> Did you experience any adverse side effects from those vaccines?


HIPAA says that I don't have to answer that question.

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## Authentic

> ..............................................


Did the horse get the COVID-19 vaccine?

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Conservative Libertarian (08-01-2021),Quark (08-01-2021)

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## Quark

> Was I talking to you?


Your talking to everyone.

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Authentic (08-01-2021)

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## QuaseMarco

> Did the horse get the COVID-19 vaccine?


No he had natural immunity......

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Authentic (08-01-2021),Conservative Libertarian (08-02-2021),Foghorn (08-02-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Your talking to everyone.


You are not the person whom I was responding to. You weren't the one quoted.

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## FlameHeart

> I don't get the flu vaccine. I don't travel to places that require any other vaccine. I have not had a vaccine since I was old enough to make my own medical decisions and I won't get any now.





> HIPAA says that I don't have to answer that question.


You brought up your history.

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## Authentic

> You brought up your history.


And I can decide when to give some of that history, how much to give, and when to give no more.

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## FlameHeart

> And I can decide when to give some of that history, how much to give, and when to give no more.


Don't bring it up if you don't want to discuss it.

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## FlameHeart

> Communism has infected the nation since the end of the 19th century and early 20th century. The CCP vaccine is the Chinese Communist Party vaccine. The virus and vaccine is a product of the Chinese Communist Party.


No. The vaccine is in response to the virus that was engineered. 

Can I see your source?

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## Foghorn

This morning rec'd my 2nd shingles shot and didn't think twice about it.  That medicine has been around a long time and besides, nobody is out there lying to me about it for 18 months straight, so I didn't blink an eye.

Yet some people call me an anti-vaxxer.  It doesn't really bother me when people call me names, in fact I kind of like it.  Here's why.

When some ignorant asshole reduces himself to name calling they are in effect handing me a blank check.  Once they choose to go there all bets are off.  While it's true the majority of the time I decide to ignore them and just move right along there are a few occasions when I'll choose to cash that blank check.  Those are the times when I have no regrets at all about verbally beating someone absolutely to shit until they are down and in the fetal position.  Then I'll toss in a few verbal kicks to the ribs for good measure.

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QuaseMarco (08-02-2021)

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## Authentic

> Don't bring it up if you don't want to discuss it.

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Foghorn (08-02-2021),QuaseMarco (08-02-2021)

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## Authentic

> No. The vaccine is in response to the virus that was engineered. 
> 
> Can I see your source?


You don't think that a bioweapons lab can or would manufacture both a virus and a vaccine?

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