# Politics and News > SOCIETY & humanities >  Protection

## Perianne

I have been reading about this stuff for a long time.  I am aware of the scary state of the USA.  I read from guys on here, like @TheTemporaryBG, about protecting one's self and family.  I worry about what if the SHTF.  I am prepared, food wise, but what if bad people try to take my stuff?  What if it comes down to survival and there are men coming down my road to maraud?  I have handguns and we know how to use them.  I have a 12 gauge that knocks my shoulder off.

I have read on survival sites about the best manstopper rifle for a woman.  Everyone has different opinions and they wind up arguing about stuff.  I have an old .22 rifle.  I have never shot any big guns, except for the shotgun, and it is too powerful for me.

I am little.  I weigh about 125 pounds.  

I never worried about any of the survival stuff until my husband died.  Right now, it's just me and my 25 year old daughter.

What type of manstopper rifle do I need?   Please only tell me the types that are available now, and the ammunition is available now.  Is a good .22 enough?  I don't know what to do.  I feel under-protected.

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Toefoot (04-01-2014)

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## TheTemporaryBG

There are a lot of good sites that have food that doesn't taste like MREs and last a long time.  I'd stock up on those.  My advice on guns is any gun that you feel you can handle is the one to have.

Go to a range in town and try a couple of them out.  Better to be a great shot with a .22 than a poor shot with a .45.

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Gemini (08-05-2013),Mgunner (02-16-2014),Perianne (08-05-2013),St James (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

> There are a lot of good sites that have food that doesn't taste like MREs and last a long time.  I'd stock up on those.  My advice on guns is any gun that you feel you can handle is the one to have.
> 
> Go to a range in town and try a couple of them out.  Better to be a great shot with a .22 than a poor shot with a .45.


Keep in mind what ammo is and isn't available. .22 rounds are unavailable in bulk, btw.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Perianne

> There are a lot of good sites that have food that doesn't taste like MREs and last a long time.  I'd stock up on those.  My advice on guns is any gun that you feel you can handle is the one to have.
> 
> Go to a range in town and try a couple of them out.  Better to be a great shot with a .22 than a poor shot with a .45.


Thanks.  It sounds simple to just do that, but it isn't.  I don't even know where to start.  What size do I ask for?  I am talking about rifles type guns.  We do go now and then to the shooting range for our handguns.

Maybe I am asking too much.......

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## Teutorian

The shotgun that is too powerful for you will still be good for your  last stand room should SHTF ever bring about the need for that.

I'd  also recommend a German Shepard or another type of guard dog, which will  alert you to any danger while you're sleeping and help you defend the  home while you're awake. German Shepard are great but if not trained they can bark a lot and drive you crazy. Rotty's are great. I have no experience with Dobemans and pitbulls can be sketchy depending on their lineage (I believe). I've seen sweety Pits and I've seen some I wouldn't trust around anyone I care for.

A .22 will do the trick as long as you don't show mercy with it in a time of need when your life is in danger.
What kind of area do you live in? Out in the sticks or in the middle of a suburb with neighbors all around?

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Gemini (08-05-2013),Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Perianne

> What kind of area do you live in? Out in the sticks or in the middle of a suburb with neighbors all around?


In a cul-de-sac in a nice neighborhood... neighbors everywhere.

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## Teutorian

I think you should try a .45

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## Perianne

> I think you should try a .45


Thanks, but I have a .357, a .22 handgun, and a 9mm.  I want a rifle that can get someone far away.

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## Trinnity

@Perianne, for you I'd recommend a youth model 20 gauge shotgun. I know a lot about guns and I hunt.....

Read this:
http://www.thewellarmedwoman.com/Sho...sics-For-Women


Get a pump action.


This is a Mossberg 20g, youth model pump shotgun. Shells aren't hard to get either.
Sells for under $300
Very little kick.

Pump action with 6-round capacityWood stock and a blue finishTwin bead sightsTop-mounted safetyDual extractors, twin action bars, positive steel-to-steel lockup and antijam elevatorEZ-reach™ forearm, reduced LOP and *shortened barrel* and pistol grip help beginning and growing shootersDrilled and tapped receiver is factory-ready for scope and optics installation
http://m.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stor...0051_451153_-1

Mossberg is a good, reliable brand, Peri.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Perianne

That is great!  But what I really want is something to reach waaaay out there and plunk someone.  I have this nightmare scenario when thugs are coming down my street, I can see them coming, and I want the ability (not desire) to defend my home before they even get close.

Am I thinking wrong?  Is the 20 gauge all I would need?  Wouldn't that require them to be close enough to shoot me with their handguns?  

I am confused.  I never thought I would have to think about this stuff.  I had a big, strong husband.

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## Trinnity

> But what I really want is something to reach waaaay out there and plunk someone. I have this nightmare scenario when thugs are coming down my street, I can see them coming, and I want the ability (not desire) to defend my home before they even get close. [/COLOR]


Okay. I'll come and visit you in jail.



> Am I thinking wrong?


At this point in time, I think so.




> Is the 20 gauge all I would need?


For now.




> Wouldn't that require them to be close enough to shoot me with their handguns?


No, the range on a 20g is about good for anywhere in your house and yard. 

Read this; it will comfort you:




> *SHOTGUNS: THE BEST FELON KILLING HOME DEFENSE TOOL EVER MADE
> *
> Countless hours have been spent arguing what makes the “best” home defense gun.  The reality is there is not a single gun that meets the requirements of every person and household.
> Frequently, when talking about home defense guns, the shotgun is brought up first.  The shotgun can make a very good home defense weapon, but it does have limitations that should be carefully considered.
> *
> Power*
> *Shotguns offer devastating stopping power.*  From a 12 gauge shell, a homeowner can put nine 00-buck (.33 caliber) pellets into an assailant with each pull of the trigger.  While this is not guaranteed to stop a determined attacker, it is certainly an attention getter.
> 
> By comparison, a 9mm pistol fires a single .355 caliber bullet at typically slower velocities than the shotgun.  You would have to pull the trigger nine times on a pistol to put the same kind of stopping power into an assailant as a single shotgun shell.
> ...



I'm gonna show you some awesome ammo in a minute....hang on.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Teutorian

> Okay. I'll come and visit you in jail.


She's talking about after complete SHTF. lol 
Not tomorrow.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

This ammo is good for a 20g shotgun because it's made for use in guns like my Taurus Defender
(seen below in pic) which holds a .45 bullet and/or 410 (20g) shotshell.  
(this revolver is 5-$700 from used to new)

See the black shell in the middle? That is balls and "diskettes". 

  You can use this  :Sign16:  in your 20g shotgun

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Mgunner (02-16-2014),Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Perianne

@Trinnity

I wish you lived near me.  You could teach me so much.

BTW, I am talking about when all hell breaks loose and the systems break down and there is no food, no police, just everyone for themselves.  That is why I am talking about a rifle and picking them off before they ever get to me.

With the information you have provided I have new respect for the shotgun.  I think I will buy one if I can find one.

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## President Peanut

@Perianne: 

If you are talking post-break down of law enforcement and we are now in vigilante and roaming thuggery, then I would recommend an AR. I know, ammo can be tight and hard to find, but if you network in your area, you will find many avenues to acquire it. The AR shoots the same as a .22LR, only louder. For your size, this would be great for distance (~300 meters if you are a good shot; ~450-500 for those professionally trained/Marines) or home defense, as I use mine. DO NOT LISTEN TO UNCLE BIDEN'S DUMBASS ADVICE! I recommend you spend the money and get an AR with pop-up front and rear sights and a rail system, as this allows you to build on the rifle more. Then, I would recommend finding a scope that allows you to still use the pop-ups without dismounting the scope, but also is comfortable for you. This will help you ensure clarity of target at distance, but also give you some accuracy in firing. I use an ACOG, but it depends on how much you want to spend. The ACOG ranges in price, but averages about $1000. There are several other optics options, as I chose the ACOG because of familarity and combat usage. 

In addition to your concerns, I would consider home security now. I taught a few classes at church over home security. First, if you live inside of a city with police reaction time fairly high, I would say go with a home security system to start. If you live in rural America like most of us, then it is just a waste of money, as reaction times vary from slow, to freaking deadly slow. My average reaction time, living one mile off a main road, is 45 minutes, with a call that shots have been fired (I know from having made that very call once). 

Security system aside, I recommend people look at their home, their perimeter, and put themselves in the position of a criminal. In other words, if you were going to break into your house, how would you do it? Where do you see weak spots? In this step it is extremly important to have someone you absolutely trust, but doesn't live with you (i.e. parent, sibling, etc.) do the same thing and try to compile your soft spots, but also note the hard spots. Then, figure out what makes each spot hard or soft, and how you should improve it. 

I use security lighting, all LED. As I have woods immediately behind me and the horse fence a few feet off the back and front/side of the house, warning shots no longer happen. The fence is electric three wire, with signs and painted neon-colored bags for identification. With the lights, I have an LED porch light set to dusk/dawn. I also use another LED two head light on the center of the house (barn style home by the way) that is set to a specific distance before activated. On the other the end of the home (where my bedroom is), I have two, two headed LED lights set up on either side of the balcony. Both are set for motion. 

With all lighting, figure out where to aim it. I use overlapping patterns for motion activated  and aim at a height that will most likely blind anyone approaching. In addition, I have been dabbling with running an additional line that will trigger an internal alert that the motion sensors have been activated. I have not used this yet and do not have much experience with it, so I cannot advise yet. 

There are some other things that I will try and gather from the home computer and post on here later. I have a document that lists more stuff I will post on here when I get home. Hope this gives you a start!

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Perianne (08-05-2013),St James (08-05-2013),usfan (08-05-2013)

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## President Peanut

One more thing I am curious about, how will you identify targets as friendly or not, especially with regard to your request for a rifle (i.e. for distance)?

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## St James

> Thanks.  It sounds simple to just do that, but it isn't.  I don't even know where to start.  What size do I ask for?  I am talking about rifles type guns.  We do go now and then to the shooting range for our handguns.
> 
> Maybe I am asking too much.......


Mossberg .410 It uses slugs as well as 00 buckshot. The wife has one, She's 4'11 and weighs 110. Light-weight and easy to handle.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## St James

> This ammo is good for a 20g shotgun because it's made for use in guns like my Taurus Defender
> (seen below in pic) which holds a .45 bullet and/or 410 (20g) shotshell.  
> (this revolver is 5-$700 from used to new)
> 
> See the black shell in the middle? That is balls and "diskettes". 
> 
>   You can use this  in your 20g shotgun


nice firearm, but one hell of a wrist breaker. If you are going to use a .410, get a Mossberg pump with two barrels. Cut one down to 22" for inside the home and up close and personal. Keep the other long barrel of hunting and longer shots. A .410 slug travels like a regular bullet from a rifle.
Remember to always practice proper gun safety.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

Peri, I haven't read thru all this except your first post about the shot gun.  Shot guns scare me and they hurt.   Get an AR.  seriously.  I love those things.  They don't hurt, they're controllable but we're talking about 1500.00, maybe less if you're lucky.   But you're gonna need someone reputable to help you get one that doesn't have this or that little thing wrong with it.   Preferably not a dealer unless you have a good rapport with one.  Too bad some of these guys live too far away from us.   

As for hand guns.  I've tried revolvers and semi automatic.   Most women's hands are too small and delicate for a semi-automatic.   Even loading a semi-automatic is tough sometimes and time consuming.  I trust a revolver better.   No jamming, no time consuming loading the bullets.   

That's just my opinion as a woman,

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## TheTemporaryBG

She's 5 ft 2, so a Mossberg pump is out.  An AR-15 is out.  My MOS in the corps was sniper, and I know about long range shots.  It's not the rifle but the precision aim that counts.  She will do more damage hitting the target with a .22 rifle then missing it with a MA.  From a distance she'd do better with a Henry rifle if her aim was good than weapons that will knock her on her ass and force her to flinch from anticipation of recoil.  

Y'all are talking to a woman who keeps saying she needs a man to defend her, that means she hasn't had to defend herself and is new at having to think about the subject.

I also agree with the Nazi guy.  She needs a big dog but for her size she needs a big dog that isn't hard to handle.  Even a big old bloodhound or deer hound will scare people off and they won't have the potential issues of being too aggressive with strangers that a Rottie or Shepherd would have.  The SEALS use standard poodles without the stupid hair cut.

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Gemini (08-05-2013),Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

why is an AR out?

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## TheTemporaryBG

> why is an AR out?


Fear.  She'd be holding a weapon longer than her own arms, she's only 5 ft 2 which means it will be heavy on them, and the trigger to reaction will cause her to flinch.

If this is the first time she's ever had to take care of herself and she has to ask strangers what to buy I think an AR is a bit much.  You know how quickly it goes off.

Oh and in case I don't stay on here
 @Perianne

Revolver to pistol is personal.  In a pistol the weight is evenly distributed in a revolver the weight is in front of your hands.  Revolvers are easier for some women because they don't have to worry about having strength to rack them, but some pistols aren't that pad.  Smith and Wesson makes a nice little pea shooter for women.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

my daughter in law is 5ft.   She shoots an AR.  I am 5'5" and even though I am taller than dnl I am considered short by some standards.   I have no problem with it.

Not trying to argue, just my opinion.   I personally like them way better than the cap'n's Mossberg or  any other rifle...except of course for my little .22 which can kill if you aim right.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## TheTemporaryBG

> my daughter in law is 5ft.   She shoots an AR.  I am 5'5" and even though I am taller than dnl I am considered short by some standards.   I have no problem with it.
> 
> Not trying to argue, just my opinion.   I personally like them way better than the cap'n's Mossberg or  any other rifle...except of course for my little .22 which can kill if you aim right.


My sister, too, but she grew up around guns and has been hunting her whole life.  Perianne needs protection now.  When she's ready she'll work her way up.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

> nice firearm, but one hell of a wrist breaker. If you are going to use a .410, get a Mossberg pump with two barrels. Cut one down to 22" for inside the home and up close and personal. Keep the other long barrel of hunting and longer shots. A .410 slug travels like a regular bullet from a rifle.
> Remember to always practice proper gun safety.


Wrong. The Taurus Defender is well balance and smooth as a baby's butt. 

Oh, and I forget to mention to Peri that a Mossberg (or any shotgun) can shoot a slug.

And AR-15 is good, since Sandyhook, they're in the 1500 and up range. 
*Rifle?  I recommend a 30-30 lever action...you can still get ammo. Clip hold 7 rounds.*
An SKS is another decent option. <inexpensive> You can get 15, 30, and 100 round clips. Bigger clips up the chance of jamming.

Both are good guns for a woman.
Also M1 Carbine. (more expensive) @Perianne

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Perianne (08-05-2013),TheTemporaryBG (08-05-2013)

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## Archer

A Ruger ranch rifle (223) or mini 30 is all you need for sweeping local streets. The Ranch rifle is optimum for real situations where the civi needs cover fire to GTFO and the thirty is more of a stand your ground with a heavier larger caliber round. Both are fine but the reason I rate them like this is capacity and ammo weight.

The 9mm is fine and has a high capacity but close in a 1911 or good wheel gun is your best choice.

And yeah I is set up that way but I have a 270 (among other long-mid range toys) that can reach out and touch someone as well. If you can hold on target and are not gun shy then I suggest a 270, 308 or 06 as these are common and easy to find. I do suggest if it ever did hit the fan to actually start taking them out at as far a range as you can. This will create disorder and send many the other way.

So you have a thinned crowd when you decide to fight or retreat and it do make fighting a more viable option.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

Good choices, @Archer, but I'm not sure she knows guns well enough to "get" all you just threw at her. @Perianne, did you?

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## St James

I still stand by a .410 pump. It was designed for young adults and women. Anyone who thinks a .410 can't kill as effectively as a pistol hasn't fired one. They are efficient enough to be banned for hunting, loaded with a slug. It travels like a regular rifle slug.

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Perianne (08-05-2013),Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

Where are they banned for hunting? Certainly not where I live.

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## Archer

> I still stand by a .410 pump. It was designed for young adults and women. Anyone who thinks a .410 can't kill as effectively as a pistol hasn't fired one. They are efficient enough to be banned for hunting, loaded with a slug. It travels like a regular rifle slug.


True but there are limitations and accuracy at range can be an issue.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Archer

> Where are they banned for hunting? Certainly not where I live.


Slug hunting is illegal in many places and in some places it is shotgun only or no semi auto weapons. But up north they have some stringent hunting ordinances.

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## usfan

+1 with an AR.  The 223 caliber has a  mild recoil.. much less than a 308, 30-06, or most other 'battle rifle' rounds.  Now, if you want to go real cheap, a chinese sks can be gotten for under $500, & the 7.62x39 round is also pretty mild, in a rifle.  But if you have $1000 to spend, i'd go with the ar.. more modern, lightweight ammo, readily available.  the mini-14 archer mentioned is also good, shoots the same 223 round, & doesn't 'look' as scary as the 'black rifle'.

But there are some very nice ar's with low cost coming up.  I like the new wyndham weaponry ar for under $800.  I got one for $700 a few months back.  Very lightweight, solid.. chrome lined barrel.  It's a good value.

IMO, if you can only have one firearm, get a 12 ga shotgun, put a good pad on the butt, & take it shooting.  You don't have to shoot magnum rounds.  It will hunt fowl, deer, & is a home protection weapon as well.

If you can have others, get a good pistol.. 9mm, 38spl, 45acp, etc.  Like archer, i'm partial to wheelguns (revolvers), but there are many good autos.  A glock is very reliable.

Then, a rifle.  this is more for a longer term shtf scenario.  But even the 223 can take a deer.  Obviously, it works in human conflict.

Want to go super cheap?  You can find old russian mosin nagants for under $200, & mil surp ammo is cheap.  Buy a rifle & a spam can of ammo (440 rounds) for under $300, & you've got some cheap insurance.  They are heavy & crude, but they are accurate & pack a wallop.

But just for home protection, a shotgun or pistol is best.

I've got autos, bolts, revolvers, single shots, shotguns, old & new.  But i'm a hobbiest.  There are pros & cons for any of them, but any will work in a pinch.  Get something you can familiarize yourself with, & practice.  Confidence & proficiency are very important in firearm usage.

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Archer (08-05-2013),Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## TheTemporaryBG

Perianne is 5 ft 2 petite in build and has never shot a weapon before.  AR's are smooth but she's little and has no firearm experience.  What i would recommend to my sister I would not recommend to Perianne.

ARs look scary and if she's afraid of the weapon she'll flinch.  She also has to put more time into taking them down and cleaning them.  Firearm maintenance is a part of gun ownership.

Finding rounds for ARs right now aint the easiest either.

She should stick with a .22.  You can still kill a man with a .22 rifle if your aim is good.

We all have our favorite weapons and we all like to discuss guns, but read her posts before recommending a weapon.  An AR15 is no good unless you can shoot straight and shoot quickly.

The action on a Henry, it's weight, its accuracy and ease will make it a good firearm for Peri.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Archer

> Perianne is 5 ft 2 petite in build and has never shot a weapon before.  AR's are smooth but she's little and has no firearm experience.  What i would recommend to my sister I would not recommend to Perianne.
> 
> ARs look scary and if she's afraid of the weapon she'll flinch.  She also has to put more time into taking them down and cleaning them.  Firearm maintenance is a part of gun ownership.
> 
> Finding rounds for ARs right now aint the easiest either.
> 
> She should stick with a .22.  You can still kill a man with a .22 rifle if your aim is good.
> 
> We all have our favorite weapons and we all like to discuss guns, but read her posts before recommending a weapon.  An AR15 is no good unless you can shoot straight and shoot quickly.
> ...


Yeah ammo is a big issue. At this time I have put any major shooting on hold because even though I load my own even components are a little scarce.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## St James

> Where are they banned for hunting? Certainly not where I live.


Banned in Indiana for slug use. because it travels further an has similar muzzle velocity as an rifle. Too many homes throughout the region. However, not banned in Michigan or Ohio.......go figure
accurately up to 700 ft or 233 yds max
12 ga. 100 to 150 yards

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

Yeah, slugs. Okay.

 @TheTemporaryBG - I stand on my rec of a 20g youth model shotgun for her. 

Me? I like buck and turkey loads for sheer knock-down-and-don't-get-up. I'm petite too, but have years of experience with many types of guns. Practice and usage makes a woman goodtago.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## texmaster

> I have been reading about this stuff for a long time.  I am aware of the scary state of the USA.  I read from guys on here, like @TheTemporaryBG, about protecting one's self and family.  I worry about what if the SHTF.  I am prepared, food wise, but what if bad people try to take my stuff?  What if it comes down to survival and there are men coming down my road to maraud?  I have handguns and we know how to use them.  I have a 12 gauge that knocks my shoulder off.
> 
> I have read on survival sites about the best manstopper rifle for a woman.  Everyone has different opinions and they wind up arguing about stuff.  I have an old .22 rifle.  I have never shot any big guns, except for the shotgun, and it is too powerful for me.
> 
> I am little.  I weigh about 125 pounds.  
> 
> I never worried about any of the survival stuff until my husband died.  Right now, it's just me and my 25 year old daughter.
> 
> What type of manstopper rifle do I need?   Please only tell me the types that are available now, and the ammunition is available now.  Is a good .22 enough?  I don't know what to do.  I feel under-protected.


For economics, a Mossberg semi auto 12 gauge shotgun.   You don't have to aim very much and its easy to use.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## texmaster

For a rifile I would recommend a PS90.   Yes they are expensive but they are light and fire like a .22 rifle.  Next to no kick.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

know what i'd like to have?  Training like the military gets.   But only for women...and older women too.  None of this tumbling stuff like that guy did in Galaxy Quest.  i'm not doing that for several reasons, 1.  i'm not as young as I used to be.2.  It would mess up my clothes and hair, and 3.  I'd get dizzy.  

Teach me the proper way to check out my home or wherever so that I can get the first shot and not be a good target myself.  Teach me how to break a leg with a well placed kick, and teach me how to shoot without doubt or think about asking questions...and before you jump me for that..that is a natural impulse for women.  I want to break that.

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Perianne (08-05-2013),Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## Teutorian

> know what i'd like to have?  Training like the military gets.   But only for women...and older women too.  None of this tumbling stuff like that guy did in Galaxy Quest.  i'm not doing that for several reasons, 1.  i'm not as young as I used to be.2.  It would mess up my clothes and hair, and 3.  I'd get dizzy.  
> 
> Teach me the proper way to check out my home or wherever so that I can get the first shot and not be a good target myself.  Teach me how to break a leg with a well placed kick, and teach me how to shoot without doubt or think about asking questions...and before you jump me for that..that is a natural impulse for women.  I want to break that.


I'm sorry but that sounds like National Socialism which is evil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_German_Girls

Shameful. You're starting to sound like one of those evil Nazis. What's next? Gonna' kill six million joos?

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## Archer

> I'm sorry but that sounds like National Socialism which is evil.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_German_Girls
> 
> Shameful. You're starting to sound like one of those evil Nazis. What's next? Gonna' kill six million joos?


Other than the hate rhetoric NAZIs are just people too.

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## TheTemporaryBG

> know what i'd like to have?  Training like the military gets.   But only for women...and older women too.  None of this tumbling stuff like that guy did in Galaxy Quest.  i'm not doing that for several reasons, 1.  i'm not as young as I used to be.2.  It would mess up my clothes and hair, and 3.  I'd get dizzy.  
> 
> Teach me the proper way to check out my home or wherever so that I can get the first shot and not be a good target myself.  Teach me how to break a leg with a well placed kick, and teach me how to shoot without doubt or think about asking questions...and before you jump me for that..that is a natural impulse for women.  I want to break that.


That's actually the business aldo, gemini and etheral and I are going into.  We've started it into VA so you can be a test subject.

 :Big Grin:

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Perianne

Thanks so much to everyone.

I have a shooting range/gun store that I am going to visit tomorrow.  I am now partially prepared.

I know I sound like a little baby, being a girl and all.  In 2003 I was stalked.  It did not end well.  I don't know how I would respond up close and personal.  That is why I prefer the distance shot when all society breaks down.  I wish I had thought of all this before my husband died.  He always knew what to do.

Thanks again for all the help.  This is a good bunch of folks.   :Love9:

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Archer (08-05-2013),texmaster (08-05-2013),TheTemporaryBG (08-05-2013),Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## texmaster

> Thanks so much to everyone.
> 
> I have a shooting range/gun store that I am going to visit tomorrow.  I am now partially prepared.
> 
> I know I sound like a little baby, being a girl and all.  In 2003 I was stalked.  It did not end well.  I don't know how I would respond up close and personal.  That is why I prefer the distance shot when all society breaks down.  I wish I had thought of all this before my husband died.  He always knew what to do.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help.  This is a good bunch of folks.


You can do it.  If my 110 pound little sister can shoot my 12 gauge Benelli anyone can.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

Ooooh, _Benelli_. <expensive>
Italian guns are goooood.

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texmaster (08-05-2013)

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## texmaster

> Ooooh, _Benelli_. <expensive>
> Italian guns are goooood.


Yes they are   And yes they ARE!

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## Gemini

The tunnel vision over guns here is amazing.  While I appreciate the destructive power of firearms, they are not the only means to an end.

Crossbows come to mind, as do regular bows.  Their range is nothing compared to a rifle, but they do the trick when it comes to killing somebody.  And it is quiet.  You don't draw attention to yourself, and in some instances render soft armors completely worthless.

Also, there is no ammunition shortage nation wide for arrows/bolts...just sayin'...

Old world weaponry like the sling - still kills perfectly well and the ammunition is literally dirt cheap.  And hunting and killing with it requires practice with it to be sure, but cost is negligible and also requires no permit to conceal.

Really, @Perianne, just use your imagination.

As for the dog?  Get an Old English Mastiff.  Get get good obedience training for it and raise it from a puppy and your golden.  Conversely, rescuing a medium sized animal from a shelter will also work wonders - they know you rescued them and will kill in your name to prove it, savior complex works for animals just as much as it does humans.

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Perianne (08-05-2013),Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## Aldo Raine

Why do you need a rifle?  If you shoot someone from a distance you'll go to jail.  Get a pistol.

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## Gemini

> Why do you need a rifle?  If you shoot someone from a distance you'll go to jail.  Get a pistol.


They have to prove you did it first before you get sentenced.

You need only a rat tail file, and a regular file to deface the weapon enough to the point where forensic ballistics are rendered moot, and if you toss the weapon or simply "lose" it, good luck getting a conviction.

Most importantly though, is knowing when and how to shut the hell up about what you've been doing.  5th amendment is your best defense.

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## Calypso Jones

> That's actually the business aldo, gemini and etheral and I are going into.  We've started it into VA so you can be a test subject.


where about?

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## Coolwalker

This is a Russian Mosin Nagant, one of the best 7.62 rifles made and you can get them for around $200.00

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

He's  right, you know.

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texmaster (08-05-2013)

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## texmaster

> The tunnel vision over guns here is amazing.  While I appreciate the destructive power of firearms, they are not the only means to an end.
> 
> Crossbows come to mind, as do regular bows.  Their range is nothing compared to a rifle, but they do the trick when it comes to killing somebody.  And it is quiet.  You don't draw attention to yourself, and in some instances render soft armors completely worthless.
> 
> Also, there is no ammunition shortage nation wide for arrows/bolts...just sayin'...
> 
> Old world weaponry like the sling - still kills perfectly well and the ammunition is literally dirt cheap.  And hunting and killing with it requires practice with it to be sure, but cost is negligible and also requires no permit to conceal.
> 
> Really, @Perianne, just use your imagination.
> ...


Have nothing against crossbows but they are for the more advanced hunter and not really for home defense.

Good thing about them is if you kill whatever you are aiming at the arrow is reusable

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TheTemporaryBG (08-05-2013)

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## Gemini

> Have nothing against crossbows but they are for the more advanced hunter and not really for home defense.
> 
> Good thing about them is if you kill whatever you are aiming at the arrow is reusable


Arrow yes usually, tip, less often.

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## Max Rockatansky

> You can do it.  If my 110 pound little sister can shoot my 12 gauge Benelli anyone can.


Agreed.  It's a matter of training.   But if one can't practice, a lighter shotgun like a .20 gauge would do.  A shotgun really is a great home defense weapon.  My favorite is a Mossberg 500 pump.  

.22's are great for the survivalist because it's cheap, 500 rounds come in a box the size of a brick and it's great for small game like rabbits and squirrels, but snares are just as good so put a couple rolls of steel safety wire in your kit.

I have a handful of handguns with my favorite being a 9mm.  I have a .45 and it's great for knockdown power.  Most women I've known prefer revolvers over a semi-auto.  A nice 4 inch barrel .357 is a good choice.  It can shoot .38s for practice.  Not the same kick and also cheaper.

For hunting rifles, I have .223, 7.62x39 and a black powder .54 caliber.

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Perianne (08-05-2013),texmaster (08-05-2013),Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> Have nothing against crossbows but they are for the more advanced hunter and not really for home defense.
> 
> Good thing about them is if you kill whatever you are aiming at the arrow is reusable


And quiet.  I prefer a compound bow but that's for the fun factor.  They require more skill but are faster to reload.

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texmaster (08-05-2013)

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## Coolwalker

*150 Lbs Crossbow Laser + Scope + 8 Arrows Cross Bow*apx 100 bucks on Amazon

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

Bows great for stealthy hunting and cheaper on average than guns, but not great for home defense.

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## usfan

> This is a Russian Mosin Nagant, one of the best 7.62 rifles made and you can get them for around $200.00


I picked up a hex receiver some years ago, on the cheap.  There is a gun shop in prescott that sells them, & they have some chinese made for $99.. not as old or cool or matching serials as the old russians, but still functional.  They do mail order to your ffl.. J&G sales, if anyone is interested.

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Perianne (08-05-2013)

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## Coolwalker

> Bows great for stealthy hunting and cheaper on average than guns, but not great for home defense.


apx 300 fps @ 150lbs...I wouldn't want to get hit with one. They are accurate @ 60 feet and it will reach there in 1 second.

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## Archer

> apx 300 fps @ 150lbs...I wouldn't want to get hit with one. They are accurate @ 60 feet and it will reach there in 1 second.


In a situation where you know they are coming a bow is better than a single shot shotgun. In a time of crisis they are a bitch to load. Yeah you can not store a bow cocked and licked.

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## Coolwalker

> In a situation where you know they are coming a bow is better than a single shot shotgun. In a time of crisis they are a bitch to load. Yeah you can not store a bow cocked and licked.


When _"they"_ are coming, I hope the nades are still dry. If it's just a _him (or two)_, a crossbow is silent...his buddies wouldn't hear anything other than _him_ hitting the ground.

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## Archer

> When _"they"_ are coming, I hope the nades are still dry. If it's just a _him (or two)_, a crossbow is silent...his buddies wouldn't hear anything other than _him_ hitting the ground.


As long as it is not your only defense for all situation you are good with the CB. But you can call the cops as well.

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## Max Rockatansky

> apx 300 fps @ 150lbs...I wouldn't want to get hit with one. They are accurate @ 60 feet and it will reach there in 1 second.


So you'd prefer to be shot with double ought .12 gauge?  I'd prefer the arrow, but that's beside the point.  In a home defense situation, swinging a bow around isn't as easily done as a shotgun.    One is unlikely to miss with a shotgun and it's reloaded in a second with a pump or automatically with a semi-auto.

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St James (08-05-2013)

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## Coolwalker

> So you'd prefer to be shot with double ought .12 gauge?  I'd prefer the arrow, but that's beside the point.  In a home defense situation, swinging a bow around isn't as easily done as a shotgun.    One is unlikely to miss with a shotgun and it's reloaded in a second with a pump or automatically with a semi-auto.


If they are in my house my Samurai Sword will do just fine.

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## St James

> So you'd prefer to be shot with double ought .12 gauge?  I'd prefer the arrow, but that's beside the point.  In a home defense situation, swinging a bow around isn't as easily done as a shotgun.    One is unlikely to miss with a shotgun and it's reloaded in a second with a pump or automatically with a semi-auto.


 @Max Rockatansky
welcome to TPF, Max, glad you could come on over.......I have a 20ga. with two separate barrels. One is the standard 28 in barrel (for hunting of course), the other is a 21 in barrel for home. It's loaded alternately with slug and 00 buckshot for home defense. Since it is only my wife and I have excellent home insurance, damages will be covered.

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Max Rockatansky (08-05-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> If they are in my house my Samurai Sword will do just fine.


I have one too, but it'd still be easier to swing a .12 gauge than my sword.   

I have a few swords.  Only the one katana, but for swinging inside the house, I have short sword modeled after the Roman gladius.  I also have a cheapie short sword/machete, but it's pretty light.

Here's a quick pic of what had laying around the house without digging into my gun closet.  Not pictured is the Ka-Bar I have next to my recliner.

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Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> @Max Rockatansky
> welcome to TPF, Max, glad you could come on over.......I have a 20ga. with two separate barrels. One is the standard 28 in barrel (for hunting of course), the other is a 21 in barrel for home. It's loaded alternately with slug and 00 buckshot for home defense. Since it is only my wife and I have excellent home insurance, damages will be covered.


Switching barrels is a great option to have.   

Home insurance is great, but a little putty and some paint would fix those walls right up!  Of course, you might need new carpet.  Some stains are real bitch to get out.   I redid my flooring last year in vinyl planking since my dog and cat shed.  A Roomba keeps the house relatively clean and the solid flooring make it easy to clean up both pet hair and any _spills_.

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St James (08-06-2013),Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## Trinnity

> But if one can't practice, a lighter shotgun like a .20 gauge would do.  A shotgun really is a great home defense weapon.  My favorite is a Mossberg 500 pump.


Just what I recommended to her.

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Max Rockatansky (08-05-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> @Perianne, for you I'd recommend a youth model 20 gauge shotgun. I know a lot about guns and I hunt.....
> 
> Read this:
> http://www.thewellarmedwoman.com/Sho...sics-For-Women
> 
> 
> Get a pump action.
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed on Mossberg and that's a great recommendation.  Sorry I missed it on the first pass.

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Trinnity (08-05-2013)

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## texmaster

> If they are in my house my Samurai Sword will do just fine.

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## Archer

> 


Shit that is great. I have a set of Sammi swords but my daughter prefers something else:

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texmaster (08-05-2013)

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## Perianne

> Why do you need a rifle?  If you shoot someone from a distance you'll go to jail.  Get a pistol.





> As long as it is not your only defense for all situation you are good with the CB. But you can call the cops as well.


Again, I am not talking about some bad guy trying to break in.  I am talking about the end of civilization as we know it.  There are no cops available.  Survival is each person depending on themselves.  It's me and my daughter against thugs looking for food.

Thanks to everyone.

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## President Peanut

> know what i'd like to have? Training like the military gets. But only for women...and older women too. None of this tumbling stuff like that guy did in Galaxy Quest. i'm not doing that for several reasons, 1. i'm not as young as I used to be.2. It would mess up my clothes and hair, and 3. I'd get dizzy. 
> 
> Teach me the proper way to check out my home or wherever so that I can get the first shot and not be a good target myself. Teach me how to break a leg with a well placed kick, and teach me how to shoot without doubt or think about asking questions...and before you jump me for that..that is a natural impulse for women. I want to break that.



I woudl check your area. I know Indianapolis has several gun stores that offer firearms safety and usage training, some specifically for women. Home defense I have not found so much, but if you know enough people in your local area, gather some ideas from them and keep what you like/want, and throw the rest out. I ran out of time yesterday to post the home defense thing I put together a few years ago. I'll try and get it done as soon as I get home today.

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Perianne (08-06-2013)

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## President Peanut

@Perianne:

For the AR, I would buy one with a retractable buttstock. Then your height is not an issue. If you are 5' 2" as my wife is, then it would definitely not be an issue.

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Perianne (08-06-2013)

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## Perianne

> @Perianne:
> 
> For the AR, I would buy one with a retractable buttstock. Then your height is not an issue. If you are 5' 2" as my wife is, then it would definitely not be an issue.


I am 5' + 1/2".  I round it off to 5'1"... sounds better, lol

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## Roadmaster

> I am 5' + 1/2".  I round it off to 5'1"... sounds better, lol


Most woman are between 5' to 5'5", I am 5'8". and my daughters are around 5'10.

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## Perianne

> One more thing I am curious about, how will you identify targets as friendly or not, especially with regard to your request for a rifle (i.e. for distance)?


I don't know.  I woke up one night with a big man standing over my bed.  It changed my life.  It terrifies me to think about someone coming for me when there is no one to call, no one to help me.  If all hell breaks loose and there is a bunch of thugs coming down my street, I think I will know, by instinct.  Don't ya think?




> She's 5 ft 2, so a Mossberg pump is out.  An AR-15 is out.  My MOS in the corps was sniper, and I know about long range shots.  It's not the rifle but the precision aim that counts.  *She will do more damage hitting the target with a .22 rifle then missing it with a MA.*  From a distance she'd do better with a Henry rifle if her aim was good than weapons that will knock her on her ass and force her to flinch from anticipation of recoil.  
> 
> Y'all are talking to a woman who keeps saying she needs a man to defend her, that means she hasn't had to defend herself and is new at having to think about the subject.


My husband took me out one day, at my request, and let me shoot his 12 gauge.  I nearly cried.  My shoulder was bruised and it didn't move right for a long time.  Maybe I did something wrong with it, but it hurt me and I am scared of it and guns like it.  I shot a .410 one time and it didn't hurt.  I have been thinking about this a lot since my husband's death.  I am very comfortable shooting a .22 and I think I will start with that.

I have all of his guns.  One of them is a Remington Sportmaster 512.  It is old.  Would that work?  It is bolt-type thingy.

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## President Peanut

@Perianne:

Difficult to say that instinct will allow you to differentiate between threats and otherwise. I know from my experience and training how I might react to a group of people coming down the street, but it would likely be different from your reaction. I only asked because you will want to plan for and train for that as well. The last thing you want to do is open fire on a group of fellow survivors merely going from point A to B. You know what I mean?

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## St James

Peri, I didn't know you lived so close to us. We have a small place in the Dead Zone between Seymour and North Vernon. 5 acres 20 miles from any town. If you want, come on down and try a couple of firearms out.

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Perianne (08-06-2013)

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## TheTemporaryBG

Duplicate

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## TheTemporaryBG

> Again, I am not talking about some bad guy trying to break in.  I am talking about the end of civilization as we know it.  There are no cops available.  Survival is each person depending on themselves.  It's me and my daughter against thugs looking for food.
> 
> Thanks to everyone.


 @Perianne

if we're talking apocalypse shit that's different.

1. Join some survival groups and form a neighborhood watch, basically get to know your neighbors.  Not even a SEAL could last on his own for that long in an urban situation.  There's only so much you can carry and or keep against other people with arms who are starving.
2. Start stocking up on food now I think someone started a thread around here
3. Create an exit plan and buy some small property somewhere not urban, put up a yurt or something.
4. As for weapons, crossbow is a good one.  You can reuse the arrows unlike a gun and it's silent and kills people too.
5. have at least 5 pistols, buy multiple magazines, buy as much bullets as you can.  The VA Tech shooter killed 32 people with pistols only.

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Gemini (08-06-2013),Perianne (08-06-2013)

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## usfan

A firearm is a tool.  You pick the tool for the intended purpose.  Then, you factor in all the parameters & find the best fit.  There is no 'best' or perfect choice.  But there are factors that make one better than another, depending on the intended use.

Caliber & type are the main choices.  Here are some pros & cons for each:

22lr.
Pros- lightweight, cheap, good small game round, insignificant recoil, reliable, good in pistol or rifle, goes 'bang' for scare factor
Cons- smallest knockdown power, Won't stop determined attacker in body shots
Best usage: small game hunting, conceal carry, survival

12ga. shotgun
Pros- readily available, Racking round in pump is intimidating sound, versatile- small bird shot to big game slugs, high knockdown power, less practice needed for accuracy
cons- heavier loads have big recoil, smaller capacity, large size of ammunition- harder to carry lots of rounds any distance, very short effective range.. close quarters only.
best usage- most versatile.. home defense, hunting, civil unrest

Lighter gauge shotgun 16-410.
pros- less recoil.
cons- less power & effectiveness than 12  ga, ammunition less available & less demand
best usage- training, youth

Pistol calibers.  9mm-45
pros- good ballistics, easy to carry, ammunition relatively small, large capacity in some semi autos. Revolvers very reliable, popular calibers should have good bartering value, conceal carry, can be used for big game
cons- short range effectiveness, recoil can be uncomfortable
best usage- conceal carry, home defense, civil unrest

Battle or hunting rifle.  
small calibers- 223- 7.62x39(ak47)
Pros- relatively low recoil, large magazine capacity, small rounds- easy to carry quantity, effective ballistics, can hunt large game, lightweight, ammo is widely used so availability & value in barter would be good.  Effective in armed conflict
Cons- distance accuracy declines after 200 yds or high winds, high demand for ammunition could create shortages
best usage- hunting, civil unrest

Big calibers- 308, 30-06 & up
Pros- highest ballistics, extreme distance capable (300yds+), can handle very large game. 
Cons- Heavy recoil, heavy, larger bullets, heavier rifles.
best usage- sniper rifle, big game hunting

These are just a few factors.. i'm sure we could (and should) expand on them more, as well as get to individual calibers & their pros & cons.  IMO, if someone wants to have a firearm or 2 for a combination of home defense & survival, a 22 rifle & pump shotgun have the best bang for the buck, if you pardon the pun.  A 22 rifle can be purchased for ~ $200, & a decent pump shotgun for ~$300.  Ammo is cheap & (usually) readily available.  Take them out once a year & fire a few rounds to keep familiarity, then lock them in a safe place.  That is really all you need.

If you're going to add big game hunting, a hunting rifle over 223 would be a good addition.  If you are worried about civil unrest, a battle rifle, such as a 223ar or ak47 are the most popular 'tools' for man on man fighting.  For concealed carry & personal defense, the 9mm small autos are tough to beat.  They usually have 6-7 round capacity, are not too heavy in recoil, are loud, lightweight, & small.  Small revolvers are good in this, too, but comparative size lose a round or 2 capacity from the autos.  For bedside home defense, any of the larger caliber pistols would be fine.  The 45acp 1911 is a proven favorite, with good ballistics, manageable recoil, excellent reliability, & decent capacity.

Anyway, imo, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' in selecting a firearm.  Some are just better suited for specific applications than others.  A 'limbsaver' buttpad makes shooting the bigger guns much easier.  I can only shoot my 308 a few times, without a butt pad.  With one, i can shoot a lot more.  A 12 ga shotgun in the smaller loads is not too difficult.  Young people & small women shoot them all the time in trap shoots, often hundreds of rounds at a time.  Just learn proper technique, practice, & get a good butt pad.  I've got a 44 mag pistol & lever rifle.  That is a nice combo, since the same ammo works for both weapons.  But i wouldn't recommend it to anyone, as 44 mag is very expensive, sometimes hard to find, & both of them are only effective up to ~100 yds.  You get a lot more versatility with a smaller pistol or shotgun, & a battle rifle.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel.  Look at the weapons of choice in civil unrest & warfare.  The ak47 & the ar15 are far & away the weapon of choice for armies & revolutions.

sorry.. got too long again!  I'll stop.

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Perianne (08-06-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

If preparing for an end-of-the-world scenario, as stated elsewhere, your best weapon and tool is the one between your ears.  Learning skills is essential.  Once learned, they can't be lost like a pistol or shovel and weigh nothing. Taking classes in gunsmithing and having the tools to repair weapons would help make a person both indispensable and well-worth protecting.  Learn medical skills such at EMT classes at the local community college.  Learn how to make wine and distill liquor. 

Also, I'd rather stock up on reloading equipment than cases and cases of expensive ammo.  Sure, have the ammo handy, but reloading equipment and the knowledge on how to use it is also a valuable skill. 

People should prepare themselves to stand alone if necessary, but in such a situation, people who are alone will fall to groups/gangs just as a bison separated from the herd falls to wolves and jackals.

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Gemini (08-06-2013),Perianne (08-06-2013),TheTemporaryBG (08-06-2013),usfan (08-06-2013)

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## Perianne

> I can only shoot my 308 a few times, without a *butt pad*.  With one, i can shoot a lot more.  A 12 ga shotgun in the smaller loads is not too difficult.  Young people & small women shoot them all the time in trap shoots, often hundreds of rounds at a time.  Just learn proper technique, practice, & get a good *butt pad*.


Butt pad.  See, that is what I am worried about.  I already have a big butt.  I don't think I need more padding back there.  If the gun is going to knock me on my butt, it is going to hurt my shoulder.  (Awesome post, BTW.  Thanks @usfan and everyone else.)

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Max Rockatansky (08-06-2013),usfan (08-06-2013)

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## Perianne

It sounds like I need to find me some land way out in the boonies.

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## Gemini

> It sounds like I need to find me some land way out in the boonies.


A small town and a property with a little acreage would be more beneficial.  Small town folks are more inclined to help each other.  Out in the boonies, it is just you and whoever you bring out there with you - this can be for good or bad.

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Max Rockatansky (08-06-2013),Perianne (08-06-2013),usfan (08-06-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> A small town and a property with a little acreage would be more beneficial.  Small town folks are more inclined to help each other.  Out in the boonies, it is just you and whoever you bring out there with you - this can be for good or bad.


Agreed.   It's easier to circle the wagons if one has a few wagons to circle.  A large lot in or near the center of town is going to be more protection for a lone woman than being outside of town on 10-50 acres.    One thing to consider is water.   Having your own well and the means to draw the water such as a backup solar or wind driven pump would be essential in any contingency plan.  

Philosophically, it's good to be prepared for emergencies, but living in fear or with a bunker mentality is no way to live.  I'm more likely to be whacked driving to work or by a tornado than a band of marauders in a doomsday scenario.  Still, I do live on a couple of acres with a well and septic with a well stocked pantry I rotate, an assortment of defensive hardware and a decent amount of ammo.  Not exactly stocked for the end of the world, but I could get by for a month at least.  Don't forget the toilet paper!   :Smile:

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Gemini (08-06-2013),TheTemporaryBG (08-06-2013)

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## Gemini

> Agreed.   It's easier to circle the wagons if one has a few wagons to circle.  A large lot in or near the center of town is going to be more protection for a lone woman than being outside of town on 10-50 acres.    One thing to consider is water.   Having your own well and the means to draw the water such as a backup solar or wind driven pump would be essential in any contingency plan.  
> 
> Philosophically, it's good to be prepared for emergencies, but living in fear or with a bunker mentality is no way to live.  I'm more likely to be whacked driving to work or by a tornado than a band of marauders in a doomsday scenario.  Still, I do live on a couple of acres with a well and septic with a well stocked pantry I rotate, an assortment of defensive hardware and a decent amount of ammo.  Not exactly stocked for the end of the world, but I could get by for a month at least.  Don't forget the toilet paper!


Everything else - good, BUT...

Baby wipes are more effective.  Deployments have proven this to me and many others.  Plus they have multiple uses, and the added bonus of you getting fewer dingleberries left behind.

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## St James

> It sounds like I need to find me some land way out in the boonies.


there's several places down this way that are up for sale due to foreclosure. We got this place, 5 acres with a 7 stall horse barn, 4 car garage, a haymow,  for less that 77,000. It's current value is 176,000. not a bad deal, but it took cash.

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## Coolwalker

> It sounds like I need to find me some land way out in the boonies.


The Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia is a pretty good place. A good friend of mine got a very nice 3 bedroom farmhouse, huge barn, root cellar, garage, equipment and 75 acres for $145,000 at the top of the water table with a private road. The closest town is Floyd, about 12 miles away.

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## Max Rockatansky

> The Blue Ridge Mountains in Virginia is a pretty good place. A good friend of mine got a very nice 3 bedroom farmhouse, huge barn, root cellar, garage, equipment and 75 acres for $145,000 at the top of the water table with a private road. The closest town is Floyd, about 12 miles away.


That's a great deal even if the farmhouse had to be demolished or completely rebuilt.   The Blue Ridge are gorgeous.   I had close relatives live for 30 years in Roanoke, VA and loved visiting them.  I've hiked part of the Appalachian Trail around there.

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## Max Rockatansky

> Everything else - good, BUT...
> 
> Baby wipes are more effective.  Deployments have proven this to me and many others.  Plus they have multiple uses, and the added bonus of you getting fewer dingleberries left behind.


An excellent point, but they're more expensive and dry out after a year or two.  I've added water to dried out ones.  Not sure if the antiseptic qualities were still good, but they were usable.  They also need to be buried or burned since a septic tank can't handle them.

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## Gemini

> An excellent point, but they're more expensive and dry out after a year or two.  I've added water to dried out ones.  Not sure if the antiseptic qualities were still good, but they were usable.  They also need to be buried or burned since a septic tank can't handle them.


Found a solution to that.  Buy them in bulk, fill up a 5 gallon bucket with them while they are still wet, and make sure you use a rubber gasket and grease the seal when you shut it.  Store in a cool place.  And buy one of those durable plastic containers you can reload when it gets empty.

The bit about the septic tank is true, don't flush wipes, burn them when they accumulate.

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Max Rockatansky (08-06-2013)

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## Archer

> Found a solution to that.  Buy them in bulk, fill up a 5 gallon bucket with them while they are still wet, and make sure you use a rubber gasket and grease the seal when you shut it.  Store in a cool place.  And buy one of those durable plastic containers you can reload when it gets empty.
> 
> The bit about the septic tank is true, don't flush wipes, burn them when they accumulate.


They now make flushable wipes.

----------


## Gemini

> They now make flushable wipes.


True, and I've used them, but they aren't as good and are more fragile.  And I am not so sure if they work well enough in septic tanks.

----------


## usfan

> True, and I've used them, but they aren't as good and are more fragile.  And I am not so sure if they work well enough in septic tanks.


Yes, please don't flush things like this.. toss them, bury or burn them.  I've installed, maintained, & fixed lots of septic tanks over the years..

----------

Max Rockatansky (08-06-2013)

----------


## Archer

> Yes, please don't flush things like this.. toss them, bury or burn them.  I've installed, maintained, & fixed lots of septic tanks over the years..


Ah I do not care, I pay to have mine pumped and people have businesses that take care of it. But we also do not make a habit of using them.

Also if it is a rental unit and you are the land lord it is another matter.

----------


## Perianne

This thread ended but the question has not ended in my mind.

I have decided that I want either a .243 or a .270.  I am likely to buy one or the other this week, assuming I can find one.

Which is more appropriate for me?  For which one am I more likely to be able to find ammo?

(for the newbies, I am a little woman)

----------


## Archer

> This thread ended but the question has not ended in my mind.
> 
> I have decided that I want either a .243 or a .270.  I am likely to buy one or the other this week, assuming I can find one.
> 
> Which is more appropriate for me?  For which one am I more likely to be able to find ammo?
> 
> (for the newbies, I am a little woman)


270 is this:



A 243 is a bit less.

Note the bark flying out of the back of the tree.

----------

Perianne (09-24-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> 270 is this:
> 
> A 243 is a bit less.
> 
> Note the bark flying out of the back of the tree.


So, would either be appropriate for me?  (Was that you and yo woman in the video?)

----------


## Archer

> So, would either be appropriate for me?  (Was that you and yo woman in the video?)


Daughter.

I would say both can take deer and if you are looking for ease of use the .243 is the way to go. Also your bullet weight has a bit to do with it. For defense a light bullet should be used because it has little recoil abd for hunting a heavy bullet is the way to go. Now light and heavy are relative here and light for a .243 is heavy for a .223.

Varmint needs a medium load and bullet and hunting deer needs heavy.

Best bet for all around is a pump or lever action in .243 or just get a 30-30 and call it a day.

The 30-30 lever is probably the best all around for the novice... PERIOD!

I would go 30-30 pump though because it gives the novice a better chance at a 2nd shot and is easily fired off the hip.

----------

Perianne (09-24-2013)

----------


## Perianne

I like your daughter.  She seems sweet.

Which one has the best availability for ammo?

Also, is 30-30 kick in the same range as the other two?

----------


## Archer

A 7600 in 243 will do you fine but I do not like the high velocity aspect of the round. 30-30 is mo betta. Still this is new.

http://www.remington.com/en/product-...odel-7600.aspx

----------

Perianne (09-24-2013)

----------


## Archer

> I like your daughter.  She seems sweet.
> 
> Which one has the best availability for ammo?
> 
> Also, is 30-30 kick in the same range as the other two?


a 30-30 has little kick and has close to the same ballistics as the 7.62 x 39 when averaged out. And honestly an AK makes a great all around gun.

----------

usfan (09-24-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> A 7600 in 243 will do you fine but I do not like the high velocity aspect of the round. 30-30 is mo betta.


 @Archer, I am a dummy when it comes to guns.  What do you mean by the "high velocity aspect"?

----------


## Archer

> @Archer, I am a dummy when it comes to guns.  What do you mean by the "high velocity aspect"?


a 30-30 travels at a relatively low speed compared to a .243 or .270. For all around use it really is just too hot of a round. That is just my opinion though and I feel the same way about the .223 as well.

I am all into the loading and ballistics so really my opinion does not count on some of these things because I am talking about things that are relevant to few people.

----------

Perianne (09-24-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> a 30-30 travels at a relatively low speed compared to a .243 or .270. For all around use it really is just too hot of a round. That is just my opinion though and I feel the same way about the .223 as well.
> 
> I am all into the loading and ballistics so really my opinion does not count on some of these things because I am talking about things that are *relevant to few people*.


You confuse me, though I appreciate you taking the time to respond.  So, would any of the three be okay for me?  (and what about ammo availability?)

----------


## Archer

> You confuse me, though I appreciate you taking the time to respond.  So, would any of the three be okay for me?  (and what about ammo availability?)


The 30-30 is probably the most recognized gun in the hunting world. I would venture to say it has taken more game than any other American gun as well. If you go to a shop it is almost the only thing you are guaranteed to find. This does not mean that it will be in stock at every moment but it means that if a place sells ammo they would carry this as a regular item. Stop by a country hardware store and they would carry this if they carried ammo. 06, 08, 270, 243... perhaps not.

----------


## Perianne

> The 30-30 is probably the most recognized gun in the hunting world. I would venture to say it has taken more game than any other American gun as well. If you go to a shop it is almost the only thing you are guaranteed to find. This does not mean that it will be in stock at every moment but it means that if a place sells ammo they would carry this as a regular item. Stop by a country hardware store and they would carry this if they carried ammo. 06, 08, 270, 243... perhaps not.


Seriously?  I have never heard of a 30-30.  You think I could shoot it and not hurt me?

----------


## Archer

https://www.google.com/search?q=anni...&bih=995&dpr=1

Now I will tell you that guns do not hurt you (save some of my wild loads and extreme weapons like large magnum rifles/handguns) but improperly handling them will. Do not be scared of them and hold on to them. Simple enough. Now I also will not let my wife or daughter shoot my 454 :Smile:

----------


## Perianne

Archer, you are a sweetie for helping me.

Another question.  I have a .357 magnum hand gun.  My husband said a .357 would kill just about anything.  Why can't I get a rifle that will shoot those?  Then I would not have to have different ammos.  Or am I asking something silly?

----------


## Archer

> Archer, you are a sweetie for helping me.
> 
> Another question.  I have a .357 magnum hand gun.  My husband said a .357 would kill just about anything.  Why can't I get a rifle that will shoot those?  Then I would not have to have different ammos.  Or am I asking something silly?


Hell yes you can and Ruger used to make combos as did Rossi. BRB (but they are lever)

----------


## Archer

Here you go darlin:
http://www.rossiusa.com/product-list.cfm?category=17

http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=

http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=

----------

Perianne (09-24-2013)

----------


## Perianne

http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=

Me likey this one!

----------


## Archer

> http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=
> 
> Me likey this one!


Yeah and I just noticed they make one in .454 :Smile:  Might have one on my Christmas wish list.

----------


## Perianne

@Archer, possibly another beginner question.

I have a local gun shop - Semper Fi gunshop - that I like.  Would they be able to order any gun I want?  It is a new gun store and they are really nice.  I want to buy from them.

----------


## Archer

> @Archer, possibly another beginner question.
> 
> I have a local gun shop - Semper Fi gunshop - that I like.  Would they be able to order any gun I want?  It is a new gun store and they are really nice.  I want to buy from them.


Yes they would little lady... Crap them lever actions make me all like...




And I pick up the talk as well darlin...

----------


## countryboy

> @Archer, *I am a dummy when it comes to guns.*  What do you mean by the "high velocity aspect"?


You need to remedy that problem. Especially since you are planning to buy and shoot a high velocity long gun. Educate yourself.

----------


## Perianne

> Yes they would little lady... Crap them lever actions make me all like...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I pick up the talk as well darlin...


Do lever actions shoot as you pull the lever?  Or do you have to pull the trigger?

I found this:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...0+BRL+357+RING

----------


## Perianne

I found this recoil table.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

----------


## Archer

> I found this recoil table.
> 
> http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm


But what does that tell you?

----------


## Perianne

> But what does that tell you?


I also found this table relating to shotguns.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

I don't know what type of 12 gauge I shot before but I don't want to ever do it again.  I know I can shoot a .410 and I could handle more than that.  So, combining the two tables, I think I could handle a 30-30, or a .243, or a .270.  Am I thinking correctly?

----------


## Trinnity

> *a 30-30 has little kick* and has close to the same ballistics as the 7.62 x 39 when averaged out. And honestly an AK makes a great all around gun.


More kick than a rifle, I think.

----------


## Perianne

> More kick than a rifle, I think.


Isn't a 30-30 a rifle?

----------


## Archer

A 30-30 or 30/30 is a rifle and is the most widely recognized hunting rifle in America. It is round nosed round (flat as well) developed for tube feeding. The guns are generally light and this can increase felt recoil but honestly it aint going to hurt anyone.

----------


## Trinnity

> Isn't a 30-30 a rifle?


Yeah, but I meant a regular bolt action rifle. It's got a little more kick than the bolt, imo.

----------


## Perianne

> Yeah, but I meant a regular bolt action rifle. It's got a little more kick than the bolt, imo.


I like the bolt thingy.  I have a .22 bolt and I like it.  Do you like bolt?

I really want to buy something good today or tomorrow.  I don't know why.  I just want it.  So now I am thinking 30-30.  

I also want a 20-gauge shotgun, like you showed me, @Trinnity in another thread.

After buying those, I think I will be satisfied.  

I also want a Marlin 60.  Then I will be satisfied.

----------


## Archer

> Yeah, but I meant a regular bolt action rifle. It's got a little more kick than the bolt, imo.


Felt recoil and yes they can because they are light but... A bolt action is no good in an all around situation as it has the longest reload cycle out of all the non automatic rifles and you are limited in the firing positions that proficiency can quickly be developed in.

----------

Perianne (09-24-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> You need to remedy that problem. Especially since you are planning to buy and shoot a high velocity long gun. Educate yourself.


I am trying.  I plan to buy this gun and go to my gun store and learn about it at the rifle range.

----------


## Trinnity

I like everything, Peri. I think Enfield's are heavy and long (cumbersome) though - I would say they're not on my fave list.

----------

Archer (09-24-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Felt recoil and yes they can because they are light but... A bolt action is no good in an all around situation as it has the longest reload cycle out of all the non automatic rifles and you are limited in the firing positions that proficiency can quickly be developed in.


Agreed.  Great for sniping deer hunting, but not so much in a fast moving situation.  Still a good bolt action in a 30+ caliber would be a good thing to have for a collection.   

For the home defense owner, a shot gun and a revolver would be best to have.   I'd prefer a good .357 such as the S&W 686 since it shoots both .38s and .357s.

----------


## usfan

I've got a 44 mag lever rifle.. & a 44 revolver.  but i don't think i'd use it in many situations.  If i were hunting a varmint, i'd go with the 223.  If deer or bigger, the 308.  If i were going into some armed conflict, the ar in 223 or an ak/sks.

Sounds like you want to have a high powered rifle for multi use, but not too much kick.  Any of those you're looking at would be fine.  But a 30-30 with full factory loads packs a wallop.. it will feel every bit as much as a 12 ga shotgun.  A slip on recoil pad is pretty cheap, & makes a world of difference.  The 7.62x39 round is pretty mild, but has decent ballistics.  Cheap, too.  A modified sks with a synthetic stock, or an ak wouldn't be a bad overall choice for you.  It would be a decent hunter, can drop a deer, varmints, & is obviously the world choice in a battle rifle, although it is mostly in fully auto versions.  Yours would be a semi.

There is not a lot of difference, ballistically, between the 30-30, 243, 270, & 7.62x39..  Ammo in the us is pretty easy for all, though the 30-30 has been around the longest, & the 7.62 is world wide.  You first need to decide what you'd like.. a lever, bolt, or semi.  Also, your budget comes into play.  Then you should ask do you really need this much.  Perhaps a 223 would suit you better?  ..much less recoil, can drop a deer, 2nd only to the ak as a battle round.  ..lightweight, cheap, & readily available ammo.  You can get them in bolt, or a simple mini-14 style of ranch rifle.  Or you can tacticool them up to look real scary to frighten liberals..   :Big Grin: 

If i could only take one multi purpose rifle, i'd take a 223 ar.  You can get ar's now for under $700.. decent new ones.  Wyndham weaponry, Bushmaster, dpms, & many other good name manufacturers have low end models that are good solutions for a home rifle.

If you want only one caliber, the 357 mag with a lever gun is a good choice.  You can plink with easy 38spl, & have some powerful mags in 357.  It will easily take a deer, & the rifles are accurate.  I already have the 44, or i'd get one.. i'd actually prefer the 357 in the lever rifle over the 44..  it's a better slug for a rifle.

Another option you could consider is a 9mm carbine.  Hi point makes a cheap but reliable one that is accurate & good power up to 100 yds.. about all the 30-30 or 357 rifle are good for, too.  Then you could have a good 9mm pistol, like a glock, & a rifle, with the same bullet.  The 9's are very small, but have good ballistics.  They are much cheaper than 357mag, also.

Good luck with your decision!

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Perianne (09-24-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I've got a 44 mag lever rifle.. & a 44 revolver.  but i don't think i'd use it in many situations.  If i were hunting a varmint, i'd go with the 223.  If deer or bigger, the 308.  If i were going into some armed conflict, the ar in 223 or an ak/sks.


There's a *lot* to be said in favor of both ammunition commonality and common ammunition.   After the Sandy Hook anti-gun hunt, certain ammunition went through the roof and couldn't even be found.  Other ammunition was easier to find.  The prices of semi-auto, magazine-fed rifles likewise shot up but bolt-actions stayed about normal.  I was looking into both when, thankfully, the ammunition prices came down (even though still almost double from a couple years ago).  Instead, I've foregone the new rifle and ammo in favor of stocking up on ammo for my SKS.

----------


## usfan

Here's a ruger in 270 for a good price..

http://grabagun.com/ruger-american-2...ital-camo.html

they've been around, & are a reputable online seller.  I think i've bought something from them before..

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Perianne (09-25-2013)

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## Perianne

> Here's a ruger in 270 for a good price..
> 
> http://grabagun.com/ruger-american-2...ital-camo.html
> 
> they've been around, & are a reputable online seller.  I think i've bought something from them before..


 @usfan, I appreciate your links.  I have checked them out repeatedly.  

Having read over this entire thread multiple times, I think I have made a decision.  In an hour or so, I am going across town to the local gun store and am going to buy a 20 gauge pump and a Ruger 10/22 *or* a Marlin 60.

I simply cannot handle my husband's 12 gauge, but I like the power.  @Trinnity posted about 20 gauges and I am convinced on that.  TBG and others recommended that the best gun for me is the gun I am comfortable with.  No one wants to be shot with a .22.  I have shot hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds with a .22.

Again, to everyone, thank you for all the input.

----------

Archer (09-25-2013),Trinnity (09-25-2013),usfan (09-25-2013)

----------


## countryboy

> @usfan, I appreciate your links.  I have checked them out repeatedly.  
> 
> Having read over this entire thread multiple times, I think I have made a decision.  In an hour or so, I am going across town to the local gun store and am going to buy a 20 gauge pump and a Ruger 10/22 *or* a Marlin 60.
> 
> I simply cannot handle my husband's 12 gauge, but I like the power.  @Trinnity posted about 20 gauges and I am convinced on that.  TBG and others recommended that the best gun for me is the gun I am comfortable with.  No one wants to be shot with a .22.  I have shot hundreds, if not thousands, of rounds with a .22.
> 
> Again, to everyone, thank you for all the input.


I have the Ruger and the Marlin. The Ruger is a bit more portable, it's a little shorter than the Marlin, and takes a stock ten round magazine. Which makes it easier to reload. But you can't beat the tube fed Marlin for accuracy. Get one of each, neither gun is very expensive.  :Smile:

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Perianne (09-25-2013)

----------


## Rudy2D

> Keep in mind what ammo is and isn't available. .22 rounds are unavailable in bulk, btw.


500+ rounds to a box (WalMart) ain't "bulk?"   :Smile:

----------


## countryboy

> 500+ rounds to a box (WalMart) ain't "bulk?"


You seen that lately? Our walmarts are cleaned out.

----------


## Rudy2D

> Thanks, but I have a .357, a .22 handgun, and a 9mm.  I want a rifle that can get someone far away.


Get a .308 or a .223.  They are NATO rounds, and chances are you can scavenge them off of dead soldiers when TSHTF.  Just sayin.  

A .308 is good for long-distance calls.   :Smile:

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Perianne (09-25-2013)

----------


## Rudy2D

> You seen that lately? Our walmarts are cleaned out.


Check _Guns and Ammo_ ads on the 'net.

----------


## Rudy2D

Browning .308s are top-shelf carbines, but bring a grand.  Get a Leupold scope, or a good laser for it.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Get a .308 or a .223.  They are NATO rounds, and chances are you can scavenge them off of dead soldiers when TSHTF.  Just sayin.  
> 
> A .308 is good for long-distance calls.


I like the 7.62X51mm and was very accurate with it out to 700m with iron sights.   However, since most of our military uses 5.56mm, those hoping to scavenge 7.62 off dead American soldiers is going to be SOL. 

Since I'm 99% sure the shit ain't going to hit the fan, I'd still go with it as a good round.   Anything over 30 caliber is a good hunting round.  Obviously the bigger the cartridge the more range.  A 30-30 is a good hunting round, but short ranged compared to a .303, .308/7.62 or 7.62X39 (mostly Russian AK or SKS).  Kinda like a .380 (9mm short) and a 9mm in comparison.   

If the shit really did hit the fan, one doesn't need to worry about scavenging just ammo off dead American soldiers.  They can scavenge their weapons too, so the point becomes moot.

----------

usfan (09-25-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

Personally, I'm impressed by the low cost and effectiveness of both the 7.62x39 round and the low cost of a good SKS.  I'm very pleased with mine as a hunting rifle.  For hunting, meaning dropping the animal dead on the first shot, it's only accurate to about 100 yards with a 4X scope, but for defense, I'm sure I could hit a man-sized target out to 200 yards if not further.  It's slow loading, but then I'm not one of those living in fear of the end-of-the-world.  If I can't hit a couple of hogs with 10 rounds, I need to go to the range for more practice.

----------


## Rudy2D

> I like the 7.62X51mm and was very accurate with it out to 700m with iron sights.   However, since most of our military uses 5.56mm, those hoping to scavenge 7.62 off dead American soldiers is going to be SOL. 
> 
> Since I'm 99% sure the shit ain't going to hit the fan, I'd still go with it as a good round.   Anything over 30 caliber is a good hunting round.  Obviously the bigger the cartridge the more range.  A 30-30 is a good hunting round, but short ranged compared to a .303, .308/7.62 or 7.62X39 (mostly Russian AK or SKS).  Kinda like a .380 (9mm short) and a 9mm in comparison.   
> 
> If the shit really did hit the fan, one doesn't need to worry about scavenging just ammo off dead American soldiers.  They can scavenge their weapons too, so the point becomes moot.


Good observations--but many National Guard units still use M-60s as their designated auto machine-gun; and they fire the .308.  Snipers also use the .308.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Check _Guns and Ammo_ ads on the 'net.


Agreed.  I just bought a 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 from USAMidway last week and, prior to that, 300 rounds each of 7.62x39 and 5.56 from Cheaperthandirt.

I still have a brick (500 rounds) of .22 from a few years ago, so I have no idea how the prices are on it, but expect it is relatively easy to obtain.  Great round for rabbits, squirrels and dove or pigeons (sitting on the ground, of course).  As it is, I occasionally shoot rabbits and dove in my yard with a pellet pistol.  They're right tasty.

----------


## Perianne

> Agreed.  I just bought a 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 from USAMidway last week and, prior to that, 300 rounds each of 7.62x39 and 5.56 from Cheaperthandirt.
> 
> I still have a brick (500 rounds) of .22 from a few years ago, so I have no idea how the prices are on it, but expect it is relatively easy to obtain.  Great round for rabbits, squirrels and dove or pigeons (sitting on the ground, of course).


I am also looking at a pellet gun for small game.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Good observations--but many National Guard units still use M-60s as their designated auto machine-gun; and they fire the .308.  Snipers also use the .308.


Snipers are rare, but appreciate the point about the NG.  However, as our current wars have wound down and our military is downsized, I'm sure most of those Guard units will be trading in their M-60s for SAWs (5.56mm).  5.56 and 9mm will be the common ammunition of our US military, both active duty, Reserve and NG, in the very near future.

The point being, if all you have is a shotgun and shells, when scavenging ammo from dead American soldiers, as you put it, why not scavenge their weapons too?  No need to have an AR-15 and Beretta 92F when there will be plenty of them lying around in your version of the future. 

My humble recommendation is to pick out what weapon(s) is/are best for the individual, stock up on some ammo (a few hundred rounds is fine) and don't worry about it.

----------

usfan (09-25-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I am also looking at a pellet gun for small game.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER


I have a Crossman pump rifle with scope.  Accurate to about 100 feet.   I've killed several rabbits, a few dove and more than a few Starlings with it (they mess up my Purple Martin house).   Pump is slower reloading than CO2, but I don't ever need to buy CO2.

_GREAT_ for shooting practice.  Do you shoot much?  Do you know about proper breathing and natural alignment?

----------


## Rudy2D

> The point being, if all you have is a shotgun and shells, when scavenging ammo from dead American soldiers, as you put it, why not scavenge their weapons too?  No need to have an AR-15 and Beretta 92F when there will be plenty of them lying around in your version of the future.


But before you take their weapons--they have to get dead.  Duh.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> But before you take their weapons--they have to get dead.  Duh.


Doesn't the same apply to taking their ammo?  Besides, you're the one who brought up dead soldiers.  Forget?




> Get a .308 or a .223. They are NATO rounds, and chances are you can scavenge them off of *dead soldiers when TSHTF*. Just sayin. 
> 
> A .308 is good for long-distance calls.


How old are you, Rudy? I'm 57 and a retired military officer currently working in the civilian sector.  You?

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Doesn't the same apply to taking their ammo?  Besides, you're the one who brought up dead soldiers.  Forget?
> 
> 
> 
> How old are you, Rudy? I'm 57 and a retired military officer currently working in the civilian sector.  You?


wuhl.    He didn't say HE was the cause of their deadness.  Probably some woman did that.

----------

usfan (09-25-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> wuhl.    He didn't say HE was the cause of their deadness.  Probably some woman did that.


I didn't take it that he did.  

Anyone else here see the reality that if one can pick up ammo from dead soldiers, their weapons, webgear, packs, food, clothing, boots, water and everything else can be scavenged too?  Who here has really ever been in the military and been through this drill?

Heck, you don't even have to have been in the military. Just think it through and stop paying attention to the end-of-the-world nutjobs.

----------


## Rudy2D

> Doesn't the same apply to taking their ammo?  Besides, you're the one who brought up dead soldiers.  Forget?


That has nothing to do with anything.  Straw men. I didn't say how they got dead, did I?






> How old are you, Rudy? I'm 57 and a retired military officer currently working in the civilian sector.  You?


Means nothing.  I've known several military officers who were idiots. 

I'm a Marine and an ex-Cop.  I have a B.A. in _Classical Languages_; and I'm 18 credits shy of a Ph.D. in _Theology_.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I'm a Marine and an ex-Cop.  I have a B.A. in _Classical Languages_; and I'm 18 credits shy of a Ph.D. in _Theology_.


If you are really a Marine, then you understand respect is earned, not commanded.

Listing pedigree is something a shave-tail Lieutenant does, not a an experienced leader.

----------


## Rudy2D

> If you are really a Marine, then you understand respect is earned, not commanded.
> 
> Listing pedigree is something a shave-tail Lieutenant does, not a an experienced leader.


Jesus.

You asked.  I gave you my answer.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Jesus.
> 
> You asked.  I gave you my answer.


I gave you mine.  What's the problem?

----------


## Archer

Yeah and I can piss a mile! Put the dicks away guys.

----------

usfan (09-25-2013)

----------


## Rudy2D

I live next-door to a Cocker-Spaniel named "Max;" Now I'm beginning to wonder if all guys named "Max" are detestable little yappers.

----------


## Perianne

ALRIGHT.

This is my thread, so stop with the crap, please.  No more insults, okay guys?  Just stop it now.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Yeah and I can piss a mile! Put the dicks away guys.


Holstered.  I have nothing to prove.  Thanks for caring, Archer.

----------


## Rudy2D

Ah, yes.  A fence--such as between Max and my Bully Dogs.   :Smile:

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> ALRIGHT.
> 
> This is my thread, so stop with the crap, please.  No more insults, okay guys?  Just stop it now.


No worries from my end, Peri.  So did you buy a gun today?  If so, what?  

If not, no rush.  As you know, I'm not one of the end-of-the-world types, but I do believe in the Boy Scout motto.

----------


## Perianne

> No worries from my end, Peri.  So did you buy a gun today?  If so, what?  
> 
> If not, no rush.  As you know, I'm not one of the end-of-the-world types, but I do believe in the Boy Scout motto.


I bought a 20 gauge Remington and a Ruger 10/22!

----------

Archer (09-25-2013),countryboy (09-25-2013),Max Rockatansky (09-25-2013),usfan (09-25-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I bought a 20 gauge Remington and a Ruger 10/22!


Good picks!  Got pics?

----------


## Perianne

> Good picks!  Got pics?


Not yet.  But I will produce some.

----------


## Rudy2D

> I bought a 20 gauge Remington and a Ruger 10/22!


https://www.paladin-press.com/produc...nd_Users_Guide

----------

Perianne (09-25-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> Not yet.  But I will produce some.


Looking forward to them.  I'll show you mine if you show me your's.   :Cool20:

----------


## Roadmaster

> Thanks so much to everyone.
> 
> I have a shooting range/gun store that I am going to visit tomorrow.  I am now partially prepared.
> 
> I know I sound like a little baby, being a girl and all.  In 2003 I was stalked.  It did not end well.  I don't know how I would respond up close and personal.  That is why I prefer the distance shot when all society breaks down.  I wish I had thought of all this before my husband died.  He always knew what to do.
> 
> Thanks again for all the help.  This is a good bunch of folks.


 I grew up with guns and around 5 years ago talked one of my sisters to start shooting if only skeet's. She is only 5'5". She likes her 22 and has bought other ones now. It doesn't matter how good, how fast, don't flinch. I love a 45 to be honest but do like shotguns now too and have some. The person who doesn't have the guts to pull the trigger is the dead one. Don't think just do it. I have seen experienced people who shoot animals and good not be able to shoot a person, they freeze or flinch. I had to go out and track, kill a bobcat at night with a knife, you can't have emotions, freeze or be scared of the dark. If you can do this you will be fine. And keep a knife with you too, just in case. Pick a gun out that  you can handle and if you want it long range get one. But remember once you shoot the gun they will know where you are.Poisoned Blow darts are great and silent. Stop worrying some of the smartest are women, they are not heavy footed.  :Thumbsup20:

----------

Max Rockatansky (09-25-2013),Perianne (09-25-2013)

----------


## usfan

> Personally, I'm impressed by the low cost and effectiveness of both the 7.62x39 round and the low cost of a good SKS.  I'm very pleased with mine as a hunting rifle.  For hunting, meaning dropping the animal dead on the first shot, it's only accurate to about 100 yards with a 4X scope, but for defense, I'm sure I could hit a man-sized target out to 200 yards if not further.  It's slow loading, but then I'm not one of those living in fear of the end-of-the-world.  If I can't hit a couple of hogs with 10 rounds, I need to go to the range for more practice.


Pick up some cheap stripper clips..  They hold 10 rounds, & guys that are good at it say it is just as fast as  swapping mags.  They don't take up as much room, & you can get the hang of pushing them in the sks.  I think i got a 20 pack at amazon for 10 or 12 bucks..




> I bought a 20 gauge Remington and a Ruger 10/22!


Great choices, Peri!!   :Thumbsup20: 
Those are both fine weapons & will be useful for just about anything you might need one for.  No one wants to get shot with a 20 ga, either!  The ruger is a classic.. goes bang every time & eats anything.  Now, you've got to take them out & waste some ammo!   :Big Grin: 

..but if you're not careful, the 'bug' will get you, & you'll start thinking.. 'hmm.. maybe i should pick up a 9mm auto, too'..  then, 'Wait!  I'm an american!  How can i NOT have a 1911?!!?'  Or, 'You know, that ruger 270 looked pretty good, & it was a decent price, too!'

 :Laughing7:

----------


## Max Rockatansky

Great story, @roadmaster!  

Agreed about the stopping power of the .45.  I have two, but not many people, especially women, are comfortable with shooting them.

Agreed too about once you shoot, your position is revealed.  If you shoot, shoot to kill.  This isn't a game.  Pulling a gun is a threat and should NEVER be used as one.  If you pull a gun, it's to shoot and if you shoot, shoot to kill.  Center of mass.  Shoot for the heart and shoot at least two shots.

----------

Roadmaster (09-25-2013)

----------


## Roadmaster

> Great story, @roadmaster!  
> 
> Agreed about the stopping power of the .45.  I have two, but not many people, especially women, are comfortable with shooting them.
> 
> Agreed too about once you shoot, your position is revealed.  If you shoot, shoot to kill.  This isn't a game.  Pulling a gun is a threat and should NEVER be used as one.  If you pull a gun, it's to shoot and if you shoot, shoot to kill.  Center of mass.  Shoot for the heart and shoot at least two shots.


Yea but the bad part is I am not young anymore. But if there is more than one or lots it is important to remember your position is revealed. Can I still handle a 45 yes, just not as quick but still may be able to outsmart them. Now if I was 25 again I could take out 25 without them knowing what hit them or where I was. I'm not really worried, may even be fun to see if I still have it. :Smiley20:

----------


## Perianne

> Great choices, Peri!!  
> Those are both fine weapons & will be useful for just about anything you might need one for.  No one wants to get shot with a 20 ga, either!  The ruger is a classic.. goes bang every time & eats anything.  Now, you've got to take them out & waste some ammo!  
> 
> ..but if you're not careful, the 'bug' will get you, & you'll start thinking.. 'hmm.. maybe i should pick up a 9mm auto, too'..  then, 'Wait!  I'm an american!  How can i NOT have a 1911?!!?'  Or, 'You know, that ruger 270 looked pretty good, & it was a decent price, too!'


I am not a beginner to shooting.  I have shot a lot.  But I didn't know about guns, if that makes any sense.  My husband would just give me this or that to shoot.  I didn't know the models or anything.  And it was a long time ago.  

I will never forget the 12 gauge.  That nearly made me cry.  I look forward to shooting the 20 gauge, though.

My daughter has a 9mm and I have a .357 and a .22 revolver.  And I have a really old Remington bolt .22 from like 1947.  My husband got it from his grandfather.

Anyway, I feel safe now and again I want to thank everyone.  BTW badguys, don't try breaking into my house.  I will shoot you!  lol

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Roadmaster (09-25-2013)

----------


## countryboy

> I am also looking at a pellet gun for small game.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER


Yep, break barrel. Good choice. It doesn't say what caliber it is. Looks like it's cheaper at Walmart, but no free shipping. Free in store pick up though. This one is .177 caliber. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ruger-Air-...Rifle/21125105

I have this one, I use it for pest control. It will shoot 1250 feet per second (fps) with special pellets. http://www.amazon.com/Gamo-Rifle-Pla...s=gamo+big+cat

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Perianne (09-25-2013)

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## Perianne

I never knew how powerful pellet guns could be.  They are like smaller .22s.  The pellet gun I'm looking at is .177 at 1000 ft/sec.  That would put a dent in your butt!

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## Roadmaster

> I never knew how powerful pellet guns could be.  They are like smaller .22s.  The pellet gun I'm looking at is .177 at 1000 ft/sec.  That would put a dent in your butt!


 I still have pellet guns here too and a lot of pellets. I did stock up on bullets a while back for all of my guns. But all my neighbors have guns too. We don't  complain if they shoot them for practice. The more we have with guns the better.

----------


## countryboy

> I never knew how powerful pellet guns could be.  They are like smaller .22s.  The pellet gun I'm looking at is .177 at 1000 ft/sec.  That would put a dent in your butt!


They actually do make pellet guns in .22 caliber. Mine is dead on accurate to at least 75 yards. 100 if you aim a little high.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

Mine is a .22 pellet, but being a relative cheapy, hand-pump, it's only accurate out to about 100 feet.  

Regarding the Ruger 10/22 (or any other rifle/pistol), there are many resources available free online:

http://www.ruger.com/products/_manuals/1022.pdf

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Perianne (09-26-2013)

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## Archer

Talking about the break down... I have found that the sprays work great for a few guns. A 22 is great but needs to stay clean and my savage 22lr is one of those ones that the barrel needs to be removed for best cleaning. In a days shooting it can get so nasty that it will not even chamber a round fully. 

The up side to it is it is almost perfect for rapid fire target shooting. 50' 10 rounds in less than three seconds all in the bulls-eye of a 25' BB gun target.

So to keep a 22lr auto in good firing condition keep it clean. Cleaner than my AK (Hell you really almost never have to clean those), cleaner than my Luger...

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Perianne (09-26-2013)

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## Perianne

> Good picks!  Got pics?





> Not yet.  But I will produce some.


If'n my gun bags come in today, the daughter and I are going to go shoot our new guns.  I am kinda excited about it.  It has been a long time since I shot a shotgun and I also want to let my daughter experience the semi-rifle.  I will try to post a picture.

----------


## countryboy

> If'n my gun bags come in today, the daughter and I are going to go shoot our new guns.  I am kinda excited about it.  It has been a long time since I shot a shotgun and I also want to let my daughter experience the semi-rifle.  I will try to post a picture.


Excellent! Be safe, and we expect a full report, pun intended!

----------


## Perianne

I shot my new guns tonight.  The Ruger 10/22 was sweet.  The 20-gauge.... not so much.  It hurt like heck and left big bruises on my shoulder.

Attachment 1344

I think maybe I need a pad or something.

When I told the man at the gun store that it bruised me, he said "Yeah, those magnums are really powerful".  I had purchased some 2 3/4 8 shot to shoot, but they said I had to use either slugs or 1 or 2 shot.  They sold me magnums.  I did shoot it eight times and my daughter shot it two times.

----------


## Gemini

> I shot my new guns tonight.  The Ruger 10/22 was sweet.  The 20-gauge.... not so much.  It hurt like heck and left big bruises on my shoulder.
> 
> Attachment 1344
> 
> I think maybe I need a pad or something.
> 
> When I told the man at the gun store that it bruised me, he said "Yeah, those magnums are really powerful".  I had purchased some 2 3/4 8 shot to shoot, but they said I had to use either slugs or 1 or 2 shot.  They sold me magnums.  I did shoot it eight times and my daughter shot it two times.


Why did they say you had to you 1,2, or slugs?  That makes no sense.

----------


## Perianne

> Why did they say you had to you 1,2, or slugs?  That makes no sense.


I don't know.  It's just what he said.

----------


## St James

> I shot my new guns tonight.  The Ruger 10/22 was sweet.  The 20-gauge.... not so much.  It hurt like heck and left big bruises on my shoulder.
> 
> Attachment 1344
> 
> I think maybe I need a pad or something.
> 
> When I told the man at the gun store that it bruised me, he said "Yeah, those magnums are really powerful".  I had purchased some 2 3/4 8 shot to shoot, but they said I had to use either slugs or 1 or 2 shot.  They sold me magnums.  I did shoot it eight times and my daughter shot it two times.


next time, pull the shotgun tighter to your shoulder and don't lean into it so far. Butt pad is a nice add, but you still have to hold it good and tight into the shoulder. Is it a pump? semi-auto, or a double barrel (2 shots and break open).
You're gonna really like the 10/22........you can still buy 25 round magazines for those.

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Perianne (10-17-2013)

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## Perianne

> next time, pull the shotgun tighter to your shoulder and don't lean into it so far. Butt pad is a nice add, but you still have to hold it good and tight into the shoulder. Is it a pump? semi-auto, or a double barrel (2 shots and break open).
> You're gonna really like the 10/22........you can still buy 25 round magazines for those.


I did hold it tight.  It is a pump.  I think it was because they were magnum shells, but maybe I am just too little to shoot a shotgun safely.

And, I do have a 25-round magazine for the Ruger.

Attachment 1345

----------


## St James

> Why did they say you had to you 1,2, or slugs?  That makes no sense.


prolly #1/0 (0) or 2/0 (00) or slug for home defense. 
Find a place where you can learn to shoot skeet. I think you'll like shooting skeet. (if ya do, buy a well-padded shooter's vest)
 Keep them safe and secure. 
Use them and become familiar with them. 
Learn to tear them down and put them back together. 
Practice, practice, practice
safe safe safe..............

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Perianne (10-17-2013)

----------


## St James

> I did hold it tight.  It is a pump.  I think it was because they were magnum shells, but maybe I am just too little to shoot a shotgun safely.
> 
> And, I do have a 25-round magazine for the Ruger.
> 
> Attachment 1345


yeah, mags are a bit hotter..................try regular rounds....easier on the pocket book

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Perianne (10-17-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> Learn to tear them down and put them back together.


When I got my new shotgun home, I took it out of the box and it was not put together.  Somehow I managed to take it all apart, lol.  It took me nearly two hours to get it together.  But now I know how.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I shot my new guns tonight.  The Ruger 10/22 was sweet.  The 20-gauge.... not so much.  It hurt like heck and left big bruises on my shoulder.
> 
> Attachment 1344
> 
> I think maybe I need a pad or something.
> 
> When I told the man at the gun store that it bruised me, he said "Yeah, those magnums are really powerful".  I had purchased some 2 3/4 8 shot to shoot, but they said I had to use either slugs or 1 or 2 shot.  They sold me magnums.  I did shoot it eight times and my daughter shot it two times.


Sweeeet!   You'll get used to the pain with practice.  :Big Grin: 

Actually, as others and yourself mentioned, add a recoil pad and try regular shells.  For just fun shooting, find the cheapest shells possible.  For home defense, switch to double or triple OO if you like.  For me, I just have rabbit loads in it: #6 shot.  At 10 feet it will blow someone's head off just as easily as a rabbit's.

When shooting, are you trying to stop the recoil or are you rolling with it?  As you already know, you don't want the butt to slap your shoulder because it wasn't tucked snugly into your shoulder, but you also don't want to try to be a brick wall in stopping it.  Adjust your stance and roll with it a bit.  You aren't so light you shouldn't be able to handle a .20 gauge.  I shot one as a young kid under 100 lbs.

It's just technique and practice.  Look at Champ shooter Shari LeGate here:

----------

Perianne (10-17-2013),St James (10-17-2013)

----------


## Gemini

> I don't know.  It's just what he said.


Well, he's an idiot.  If you are a petite female shooting a 20 gauge shotgun with a slug - your shoulder is going to eat it hard unless you're just naturally tough, or skilled.

Use lighter loads.




> prolly #1/0 (0) or 2/0 (00) or slug for home defense. 
> Find a place where you can learn to shoot skeet. I think you'll like shooting skeet. (if ya do, buy a well-padded shooter's vest)
>  Keep them safe and secure. 
> Use them and become familiar with them. 
> Learn to tear them down and put them back together. 
> Practice, practice, practice
> safe safe safe..............


I disagree with the slugs and 00 buck shot.  You can easily shoot through a house with this stuff - kill your own family members on accident, or a neighbor who can in turn sue you if they live(or their relatives if they don't).  Bird shot at close range will handle most problems.

And it is much easier on the shoulders.  Gotta think, this is for home defense, not Helm's Deep battling legions of armored Uruk-Hai.

But yes, practice is a must.

----------

Max Rockatansky (10-17-2013),Perianne (10-17-2013)

----------


## St James

10/22 is my fave short gun. When I first got mine, lo the years back, I ran 1250 rounds through it before I had to totally clean it. I have a hard time slinging it though. Means you have to put a hole in the stock, and that ruins the value.

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Max Rockatansky (10-17-2013)

----------


## St James

> I did hold it tight.  It is a pump.  I think it was because they were magnum shells, but maybe I am just too little to shoot a shotgun safely.
> 
> And, I do have a 25-round magazine for the Ruger.
> 
> Attachment 1345


just got to thinking, _shit here he goes thinking again_, if the 20 seems like a bit too much, grab a .410 and check it out.

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Perianne (10-17-2013)

----------


## Gemini

> just got to thinking, _shit here he goes thinking again_, if the 20 seems like a bit too much, grab a .410 and check it out.


That was my next thought.  But at that rate, you may as well just get a S&W Governor - you get to shoot long Colts or .410 out of it.  Or the Taurus Judge.

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Perianne (10-17-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> just got to thinking, _shit here he goes thinking again_, if the 20 seems like a bit too much, grab a .410 and check it out.


It's been over two hours and my shoulder is still tender.  I was actually thinking about a .410.  They are powerful enough for defense, too, aren't they?  Do gun stores take trade ins?

----------


## Gemini

> It's been over two hours and my shoulder is still tender.  I was actually thinking about a .410.  They are powerful enough for defense, too, aren't they?


Any gun at close range is better than foul language.  Yes, a .410 would suffice, problem is that most models I know are breach loaded.  Meaning you get one shot.  Not ideal for a defense situation.




> Do gun stores take trade ins?


Hell if I know, but I am sure you could do some legwork and find out.  Make hunter friends and see what the camp fire crowd has out there to trade.  I know a pawn shop will buy basically any gun they can get right now, but you could also make good off of just a private sale - it is a seller's market right now because people have a huge boner for guns.

Basically, I'd keep it, but use lighter firepower.  Grab some heavies for sure in case you need them for hunting bigger game, but lighter loads will suffice quite well in a defense situation.  If even one pellet lands in the eye the fight is over.  And #8 shot will easily make that happen.

I don't know many thugs that break into a home wearing body armor and ballistic glass face shields.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> It's been over two hours and my shoulder is still tender.  I was actually thinking about a .410.  They are powerful enough for defense, too, aren't they?  Do gun stores take trade ins?


Yes a .410 is nice, but I think you should stick with the .20 ga pump.  That's a great little shotgun.  Try the recoil pad.  Those usually screw on with the same two screws holding on the current butt plate.  Just make sure you order the correct size or one made for your make and model of shotgun.  

A shooting vest with padded shoulder might help too until you get used to shooting it.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_...8&rnid=3375301

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Perianne (10-17-2013)

----------


## St James

> Any gun at close range is better than foul language.  Yes, a .410 would suffice, problem is that most models I know are breach loaded.  Meaning you get one shot.  Not ideal for a defense situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Hell if I know, but I am sure you could do some legwork and find out.  Make hunter friends and see what the camp fire crowd has out there to trade.  I know a pawn shop will buy basically any gun they can get right now, but you could also make good off of just a private sale - it is a seller's market right now because people have a huge boner for guns.
> 
> Basically, I'd keep it, but use lighter firepower.  Grab some heavies for sure in case you need them for hunting bigger game, but lighter loads will suffice quite well in a defense situation.  If even one pellet lands in the eye the fight is over.  And #8 shot will easily make that happen.
> 
> I don't know many thugs that break into a home wearing body armor and ballistic glass face shields.




Mossberg .410 pump.............. slug or shot. You can get one of those wrist snappers, but it's only good for one thing. With the .410, you can use it for hunting as well.

----------


## Gemini

Well, my other beef with a .410 is not only the stopping power, but availability of ammunition.

If ammo were common in .410, I would have no beef with a pump action .410.

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Perianne (10-17-2013)

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

Interesting thread. I saw some "okay" advice, some bad advice, some really bad advice, and some downright lethal advice.

It looks like we have got a little bit of everything.

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## Max Rockatansky

> Interesting thread. I saw some "okay" advice, some bad advice, some really bad advice, and some downright lethal advice.
> 
> *It looks like we have got a little bit of everything.*


Except your advice.  Feel free to be specific and be sure to add the corrective factor(s).

BTW, welcome to the forum.

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Archer (10-22-2013)

----------


## Maximatic

> Interesting thread. I saw some "okay" advice, some bad advice, some really bad advice, and some downright lethal advice.
> 
> It looks like we have got a little bit of everything.


But, according to you, we still haven't seen any good advice. Since you appear to be drawing a distinction between good advice and all the other kinds, we should suppose that you believe that you know what good advice is. So let's have it.

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Archer (10-22-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

FWIW, I'm looking for a nice .357 revolver as a present for a woman.  The model I bought both my ex-wives was a S&W 686, but I'm not sure I want to spend the price of an AR-15 on a handgun.  

Any recommendations?

----------


## Trinnity

> FWIW, I'm looking for a nice .357 revolver as a present for a woman.  The model I bought both my ex-wives was a S&W 686, but I'm not sure I want to spend the price of an AR-15 on a handgun.  
> 
> Any recommendations?


Have you looked at any Rugers?

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

Thanks for the welcome.

The problem I see here is too many people throwing out advice without addressing the specific needs of the person who posed the original question. I read about the first ten pages of the thread, then had to skip to thw last page because it was just getting too bogged down with junk. I guess it is possible I may have missed something important in the pages I skipped and I will go back and read them, eventually.

What I got out of this from the start...

Female
Small stature
Inexperienced shooter
Concerned about societal breakdown and having the ability to defend herself and her home, but with that ability extending beyond her front door, probably out to at least one VD (Visual Distance).

Right off the bat, that eliminates a shotgun as the primary defensive tool. It also eliminates handguns, which should NEVER  be considered a primary weapon, to begin with.

This leaves with long guns, so at this point, we need to start thinking about what is most suitable for HER, not for you (an experienced shooter) or for me, but for her. I think we need to ask her a few more questions before we start offering advice. Example - she said she has a 9mm pistol. What kind of 9mm does she have? It may make a difference in her choice of long gun. she mentioned she lives in a cul de sac. What is the distance she can see from her house and how far out does she really want to be able to defend? Are her neighbors supportive and likely to aid in defending the neighborhood or does she really need to consider E&E rather than establishing a strong point defense?

There is much more we do not know than we do know. Just tossing out ideas to someone who is seriously considering the means to defend her life and property seems kind of irresponsible to me. Educate her, then guide her.

----------


## Archer

> FWIW, I'm looking for a nice .357 revolver as a present for a woman.  The model I bought both my ex-wives was a S&W 686, but I'm not sure I want to spend the price of an AR-15 on a handgun.  
> 
> Any recommendations?


 @Pooltablerepairman is this acceptable?

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Trinnity

> Interesting thread. I saw some "okay" advice, some bad advice, some really bad advice, and some downright lethal advice.
> 
> It looks like we have got a little bit of everything.


Btw, welcome to the forum. Call on me or Calypso Jones if you need anything.

----------


## Archer

> Thanks for the welcome.
> 
> The problem I see here is too many people throwing out advice without addressing the specific needs of the person who posed the original question. I read about the first ten pages of the thread, then had to skip to thw last page because it was just getting too bogged down with junk. I guess it is possible I may have missed something important in the pages I skipped and I will go back and read them, eventually.
> 
> What I got out of this from the start...
> 
> Female
> Small stature
> Inexperienced shooter
> ...


You missed the fact that we sort of know each other and we have had other threads pertaining to this subject where @Perianne has expressed her concerns.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> Have you looked at any Rugers?


GMTA.  I was looking over reviews of both the GP100 and SP101.  I'd love to have a Vaquero for myself, but for her, I think something more normal, especially with a swing-out gate, is better.

She'd mentioned wanting a .380 to put in her purse and I'm looking at that, but for home defense, a .357 with Glaser rounds (mixed with wadcutters or hollow points) is preferable.

----------


## usfan

> Thanks for the welcome.
> 
> The problem I see here is too many people throwing out advice without addressing the specific needs of the person who posed the original question. I read about the first ten pages of the thread, then had to skip to thw last page because it was just getting too bogged down with junk. I guess it is possible I may have missed something important in the pages I skipped and I will go back and read them, eventually.
> What I got out of this from the start...
> Female
> Small stature
> Inexperienced shooter
> Concerned about societal breakdown and having the ability to defend herself and her home, but with that ability extending beyond her front door, probably out to at least one VD (Visual Distance).
> Right off the bat, that eliminates a shotgun as the primary defensive tool. It also eliminates handguns, which should NEVER  be considered a primary weapon, to begin with.
> ...


1. Peri is smart enough to make her own decisions.  Some of us tossed in some food for thought, but we are not being dogmatic about what the 'right' decision is.
2. Plenty of small, petite women shoot shotguns.  Ever been to a skeet range?  My daughter is 5'4", 110# & can shoot at the range all day.  12 ga trap loads are not that brutal.
3. Handguns are sometimes the only weapon people have.  Millions of people use them for HD.  Millions of women shoot them at ranges every day.  If that is the only weapon someone has, that's fine.  There is no 'right' answer.  There are too many variables.
4. the rest is too analytical.. we are just providing free advice, which is always worth what you pay for it.  Anyone who is looking into protection can find plenty of information, conflicting at times, on the subject.  I have different opinions from some of the other posters, but i would not call it 'wrong' advice.. just different from a different perspective.

BTW, welcome to the forum!   :Big Grin:

----------


## Perianne

> ... a .357 with Glaser rounds (mixed with *wadcutters* or hollow points) is preferable.


Wadcutter, lol.  Goofy name for a bullet.  hahahahaha

----------


## Archer

> Wadcutter, lol.  Goofy name for a bullet.  hahahahaha


Nope they literally cut a round hole in paper.

----------


## usfan

> FWIW, I'm looking for a nice .357 revolver as a present for a woman.  The model I bought both my ex-wives was a S&W 686, but I'm not sure I want to spend the price of an AR-15 on a handgun.  
> Any recommendations?


Lots of good revolvers in 357.. my ruger gp100 is a beast, but built like a tank.  a 101 with 3"bbl would still be big, but you need some size for a 357.  She can practice with 38spl, too.

Taurus has some cheaper ones, that have good reputations, but i've not owned one.  I've fired them & they seem ok.  I'm partial to smiths & rugers, though.. made in the us.

There's quite a jump between a 380 & 357!  You might also consider a 38 snubbie.. my ruger lcr is my favorite carry piece.. 14oz empty.  Small as most 380 autos.  But because of it's light weight, it is a handful with full 38 loads.. +p are painful.  ..might be good to take her to an indoor range where they rent pistols & let her shoot different ones.. that kind of ruins the 'surprise!' factor, but some surprises can hurt.   :Big Grin:

----------


## Perianne

> 1. Peri is smart enough to make her own decisions.  Some of us tossed in some food for thought, but we are not being dogmatic about what the 'right' decision is.
> 2. Plenty of small, petite women shoot shotguns.  Ever been to a skeet range?  My daughter is 5'4", 110# & can shoot at the range all day.  12 ga trap loads are not that brutal.
> 3. Handguns are sometimes the only weapon people have.  Millions of people use them for HD.  Millions of women shoot them at ranges every day.  If that is the only weapon someone has, that's fine.  There is no 'right' answer.  There are too many variables.
> 4. the rest is too analytical.. we are just providing free advice, which is always worth what you pay for it.  Anyone who is looking into protection can find plenty of information, conflicting at times, on the subject.  I have different opinions from some of the other posters, but i would not call it 'wrong' advice.. just different from a different perspective.
> 
> BTW, welcome to the forum!


Yes, and I asked for opinions.  And I thank everyone, including @Pooltablerepairman, for the advice.  I am happy and content with the decisions I have made, based in part, on what many on here have said.

You guys do have me lusting for the Mosin.

----------


## Perianne

> Nope they literally cut a round hole in paper.


okay.  What good is that?

----------


## Archer

> okay.  What good is that?


Target shooting

----------


## Perianne

Then why don't they call them hole punchers?


(I'm messing with you, @Archer, lol)

----------


## Archer

> Then why don't they call them hole punchers?
> 
> 
> (I'm messing with you, @Archer, lol)


Too close to Ho puncher which is a pimp!

I have some 44mag in the shop. Hold on and I will show you.

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> @Pooltablerepairman is this acceptable?


Why would it not be acceptable?

Revolvers are great. The .357 Magnum is the most effective defensive handgun round produced, ad if she doesn't like the full magnum rounds, there are always .38, .38+P, and .38 +P+.

----------


## Perianne

> Too close to Ho puncher which is a pimp!


So, instead, you like wad shooters?  Sounds gay.

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> Btw, welcome to the forum. Call on me or Calypso Jones if you need anything.


Thank you.

----------


## Perianne

Welcome @Pooltablerepairman!

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> You missed the fact that we sort of know each other and we have had other threads pertaining to this subject where @Perianne has expressed her concerns.


I based my assessment on the specific issues she raised in this thread.

I mean, let's get real here. She asked about defending her home at extended ranges and someone recommended a Taurus Judge. Does somebody not like her, or what?

----------


## Perianne

> Welcome @Pooltablerepairman!


May I suggest you get a shorter name?  Maybe Pooldude.  Or Rumplestiltskin.

----------


## Perianne

> Does somebody not like her, or what?


I am not liked here.  @Trinnity suggested I get a 50 caliber handgun for defense.  That would hurt me so bad.

Just joking.

I recently got a notification that I am now "Most Popular".  Can I be Homecoming Queen, too?  hahahaha!

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

Perianne, I am going to go back and read the 8 or 9 pages I skipped in this thread after it looked like it was just becoming counterproductive to go on.

Could you humor the new guy a bit and tell me just what you think your defensive needs and what goals you have regarding building a defensive arsenal?

Thanks for the welcome.

----------


## Archer

> I based my assessment on the specific issues she raised in this thread.
> 
> I mean, let's get real here. She asked about defending her home at extended ranges and someone recommended a Taurus Judge. Does somebody not like her, or what?


Hey I will admit that there may have been a few out there posts but most people involved in that thread have quite a bit of experience with firearms.

I recommended a lever action and still stand by it though she got a shotgun.

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> Hey I will admit that there may have been a few out there posts but most people involved in that thread have quite a bit of experience with firearms.


I will have to take your word for that. It was hard to tell.




> I recommended a lever action and still stand by it though she got a shotgun.


Depending on the make and caliber of the lever gun, that may have been one of the best recommendations.

----------


## Perianne

> Could you humor the new guy a bit and tell me just what you think your defensive needs and what goals you have regarding building a defensive arsenal?


I shoot people I don't know.  Be very careful around me.

Seriously, you already have the facts.  I am a widowed woman facing the reality that I don't have a big, tough, he-man to protect me anymore.  My mind got to racing about what if Democrats, or other undesirables, decided to riot and try to hurt me and my family.

----------


## Perianne

> I recommended a lever action and still stand by it though she got a shotgun.


And I love you for the wise advice.  I did look at the exact guns we were talking about.  The gun store had them in the corner.  I still haven't decided about a high-powered rifle, though I admit for the cost and all, the Mosins are interesting.

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> 1. Peri is smart enough to make her own decisions.  Some of us tossed in some food for thought, but we are not being dogmatic about what the 'right' decision is.


Not being dogmatic is good.




> 2. Plenty of small, petite women shoot shotguns.  Ever been to a skeet range?  My daughter is 5'4", 110# & can shoot at the range all day.  12 ga trap loads are not that brutal.
> 3. Handguns are sometimes the only weapon people have.  Millions of people use them for HD.  Millions of women shoot them at ranges every day.


Do they engage threats in excess of 100 meters with them? That is one of the factors we are responding to here.




> If that is the only weapon someone has, that's fine.  There is no 'right' answer.  There are too many variables.


There may not be any "right" answers, but there are lots of wrong answers.




> BTW, welcome to the forum!


Thank you.

----------


## Archer

@Perianne this is even better. If you hear anyone talk about ball ammo they generally are talking FMJ round nose.

All of the types of rounds have different purposes.

For example for home defense in an auto you would want to use ball (FMJRN) or JHP. You do not want to use a semi jacketed round because lead is soft and you may have a jam. In a wheel gun this is not important. Still always go HP for defense because the round expands doing more damage while transferring more energy.

For target shooting (except when perfecting a load or practicing with your hunting/defense load) use a wadcutter or semi wadcutter so you can see the holes.

Also these are handgun rounds. Rifle rounds have much more in the way of design.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> What I got out of this from the start...
> 
> Female
> Small stature
> Inexperienced shooter
> Concerned about societal breakdown and having the ability to defend herself and her home, but with that ability extending beyond her front door, probably out to at least one VD (Visual Distance).
> 
> Right off the bat, that eliminates a shotgun as the primary defensive tool. It also eliminates handguns, which should NEVER  be considered a primary weapon, to begin with.


You'd prefer a long rifle over a shotgun if intruders broke into your home?  How novel. 

If I'm defending at close quarters, my 12 ga. pump is my preferred weapon: lots of power, wider lethal pattern than a handgun or rifle.  If I'm hunting people or in a firefight at ranges longer than 10 yards, then, yes, I'd prefer a long rifle.  In a street fight or ranges less than 200 yards, a 5.56mm is a good choice, but for longer ranges and sniping, I'd like something along the lines of a 7.62 NATO or X54R.   YMMV


For those concerned about over-penetration and killing a family member, a close neighbor or even the family pet, #6 shot is a good choice.  It's what I have, but also makes a good rabbit load.  I do like the ideas expressed in the article below, so I'll pick up some #1 buckshot for home defense.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm



> The Firearms Tactical Institute reports:_"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body."
> 
> _
> Generally available candidates include:
> 
> Remington Express Buckshot 12B1 (1250 fps, 16 pellets #1 Buck).Remington Express Buckshot 12B0 (1275 fps, 12 pellets #0 Buck).Winchester Super-X XB121 (1250 fps, 16 pellets #1 Buck).
> The 16 pellet #1 Buck loads yield a 640 grain payload while Remington’s 12 pellet #0 Buck load gives about a 580 (579.6) grain payload. Based on a 7 lb. shotgun, the Remington #0 Buck Loads generates 27.4 ft. lbs. of recoil, while the #1 Buck factory loads generate 31.8 ft. lbs of recoil. This roughly 15% reduction in recoil may sway you to the Remington #0 load on the basis of comfort and controllability. Most importantly, the penetration of this load is more than adequate to end a dire situation.

----------


## Archer

> And I love you for the wise advice.  I did look at the exact guns we were talking about.  The gun store had them in the corner.  I still haven't decided about a high-powered rifle, though I admit for the cost and all, the Mosins are interesting.


Do realize that the Mosin Nagant is heavy and has a decent kick. For home or street level defense it would most likely get a person that was not familiar with it killed.

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## Pooltablerepairman

> Do realize that the Mosin Nagant is heavy and has a decent kick. For home or street level defense it would most likely get a person that was not familiar with it killed.


Absolutely.

----------


## Perianne

> @Perianne this is even better. If you hear anyone talk about ball ammo they generally are talking FMJ round nose.
> 
> All of the types of rounds have different purposes.
> 
> For example for home defense in an auto you would want to use ball (FMJRN) or JHP. You do not want to use a semi jacketed round because lead is soft and you may have a jam. In a wheel gun this is not important. Still always go HP for defense because the round expands doing more damage while transferring more energy.
> 
> For target shooting (except when perfecting a load or practicing with your hunting/defense load) use a wadcutter or semi wadcutter so you can see the holes.
> 
> Also these are handgun rounds. Rifle rounds have much more in the way of design.


My .38s are 110 gr FTX.  Are they okay for self-defense?

----------


## Perianne

> Do realize that the Mosin Nagant is heavy and has a decent kick. For home or street level defense it would most likely get a person that was not familiar with it killed.


Why is that?  I like the way they look, like an antique or something.

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> You'd prefer a long rifle over a shotgun if intruders broke into your home?  How novel.


I don't recall saying that, but now that you mention it, under certain circumstances, I might. The issue we were discussing though, was not home defense, but defending her home and the area surrounding it.

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## Archer

> Why is that?  I like the way they look, like an antique or something.


The FTX is fine but I would suggest moving to 158gr for stopping power and they (Nagant) look like antiques because they are. WW surplus and many are in poor condition. Get one for plinking or hunting not defense in any situation other than trench warfare or sniping.

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## Pooltablerepairman

> May I suggest you get a shorter name?  Maybe Pooldude.  Or Rumplestiltskin.


The name actually has a certain significance to some people, but how about just PTR?

Make it simple for me to remember.

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## Perianne

> The FTX is fine but I would suggest moving to 158gr for stopping power and they (Nagant) look like antiques because they are. WW surplus and many are in poor condition. Get one for plinking or hunting not defense in any situation other than trench warfare or sniping.


What was that lever action gun you recommended again?

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## Perianne

> The name actually has a certain significance to some people, but how about just PTR?
> 
> Make it simple for me to remember.


I'm just kidding with you.  You call yourself whatever you want to call yourself.  I do like Rumplestiltskin, though.   :Smile:

----------


## Archer

> What was that lever action gun you recommended again?


I recommended a .270 and a 30-30 but you can get one in 38/357 as well.

The 38/357 would be great and the longer barrel with +P rounds (38) gives you much more power and range.

Rossi and Marlin 1894 come to mind.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> I don't recall saying that, but now that you mention it, under certain circumstances, I might. The issue we were discussing though, was not home defense, but defending her home and the area surrounding it.


As Archer has already pointed out, you're missing the fact we've discussed this both here and on other threads.

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## Pooltablerepairman

Since she already has a .357 wheelgun, the .357 would probably be a great choice. It would giver the kind of range she probably needs, based on her stated concerns, it hits hard, especially coming out of a 16" or longer barrel and it givers here the option of hitting hard with the magnum or taking it easy in herself with the .38s, and still having a hard hitting round.

The lever gun was a good recommendation and much more practical for her purposes than any shotgun.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Perianne

> I recommended a .270 and a 30-30 but you can get one in 38/357 as well.
> 
> The 38/357 would be great and the longer barrel with +P rounds (38) gives you much more power and range.
> 
> Rossi and Marlin 1894 come to mind.


I know this stuff seems clear to you guys, but it makes my head swim sometimes.  Imagine trying to pack in all the information you have learned over your lifetime into a few short months.

I do appreciate all you do.

----------


## Perianne

> I recommended a .270 and a 30-30 but you can get one in 38/357 as well.
> 
> The 38/357 would be great and the longer barrel with +P rounds (38) gives you much more power and range.
> 
> Rossi and Marlin 1894 come to mind.





> Since she already has a .357 wheelgun, the .357 would probably be a great choice. It would giver the kind of range she probably needs, based on her stated concerns, it hits hard, especially coming out of a 16" or longer barrel and it givers here the option of hitting hard with the magnum or taking it easy in herself with the .38s, and still having a hard hitting round.
> 
> The lever gun was a good recommendation and much more practical for her purposes than any shotgun.


Does the bullet come out faster with a long barrel?  Would it work to shoot deer from 100 yards?

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## Pooltablerepairman

> As Archer has already pointed out, you're missing the fact we've discussed this both here and on other threads.


As you will discover, I seldom miss anything.

What was discussed in other threads really is not germane to this thread. She stated specific concerns and goals.

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## Pooltablerepairman

> Does the bullet come out faster with a long barrel?  Would it work to shoot deer from 100 yards?


Yes, to both.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Roadmaster

The best one is the one you can shoot easy and hit the target. Load fast and have the range you want. Everyone is different and I have long hands for a female they go with my size 11 feet.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> As you will discover, I seldom miss anything.


Obviously untrue as you already have.  You just don't want to admit being wrong.  No worries.  You aren't the first there either.

----------


## Network

Protect yourself by spreading the word to reject any face who shows up in the media as a candidate for any position.

I understand that is difficult to spread to the masses of clueless peasants, but the fact should still be known.  Obozo was the biggest media creation and alleged liberal this nation has ever seen, but it turns out he is also the biggest rights-crushing fascist we've ever had.

Once again, you're being epically hoaxed by prompter-reading mediots.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

----------


## Archer



----------


## Perianne

> 


 @Archer, someone posted that video before and I asked a question that was never answered.

Does a lever action rifle shoot a bullet every time you lever it, like it does on there?  That seems unsafe.

----------


## Roadmaster

> 


I like that one.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Does the bullet come out faster with a long barrel?  Would it work to shoot deer from 100 yards?


Not only faster but more accurate.  The longer the barrel, the more time the expansion of the gunpowder as to accelerate the bullet and the more twists in the barrel the bullet will pass through. 

This is why longer barreled handguns are preferred over short barreled for those who hunt.  Short barreled is obviously better for concealing and drawing from a concealed holster, but what it gains in concealment it gives up on accuracy at longer ranges and, as you asked, in power.  

This article touches on the concept a bit even though it also shows a shorter barreled Judge is equal to a slightly longer Springfield XDS for reasons explained in the article.

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/why-...han-you-think/



> Now, in reality it is a well-established axiom of ballistics that longer barrels = higher velocity, up to a point.  The longer the barrel is, the more distance the bullet will travel while still being contained in the sealed environment of the barrel, and that means the expanding gases from the burning gunpowder can push on the bullet longer, thus increasing its velocity.  This is all obvious and well-understood.  And the knock against a short barrel has always been that it’s possible for the bullet to exit the barrel before the expanding gases have fully expanded, so any further expansion they do will be out into the atmosphere and not pressing against the bullet.  Accordingly, really short barrels have usually been pretty bad at generating decent velocities.  And an inch or two can make either a significant difference, or a miniscule difference; it really depends on where the barrel length difference comes in.  The difference between a 6″ barrel and an 8″ barrel might be minor, but the difference between a 1″ barrel and a 3″ barrel will be huge!  In the longer 6″ barrel the expanding gases may have done most of their job pushing the bullet by the time that bullet exits the barrel; there may not be much more that will be gained from the 8″ barrel.  However, on a 1″ barrel, the gases very likely will have just barely have started expanding by the time the bullet pops out of that tiny barrel!  Any further expansion is just wasted.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Maximatic

> Does the bullet come out faster with a long barrel?  Would it work to shoot deer from 100 yards?


No. The powder is responsible for pushing the slug. More powder, or powder of a finer grain will push the slug faster. The barrel is responsible for directing the slug. There are spiral shaped ridges that run along the inside of the barrel. The slug doesn't fit between those ridges, so, when it is forced through the barrel, those ridges dig into the sides of the slug, and it follows the path of the ridges. As it goes forward, following those spiraling ridges, it is forced to spin. You know how, when you throw a dart, if you put a spin on it, it tends to be more likely to follow a straight path? That's what the barrel is doing to the slug. A longer barrel gives more spin to the slug which makes the slug follow a straighter path. That's why sniper rifles have long barrels, and tend to take rounds that hold a lot of powder, to push the slug fast and give it a lot of spin, so that it goes straighter for longer.

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> @Archer, someone posted that video before and I asked a question that was never answered.
> 
> Does a lever action rifle shoot a bullet every time you lever it, like it does on there?  That seems unsafe.


The lever ejects the old round, reloads a new one and cocks the weapon.  You still have to pull the trigger each time.  Your pump shotgun does the same thing except with a slide, not a lever.

I have a Browning BL-22 lever action which I received for Christmas in 1968.  Still looks and shoots great too!

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Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Pooltablerepairman

> Obviously untrue as you already have.  You just don't want to admit being wrong.  No worries.  You aren't the first there either.


I didn't miss anything, Max. As I said, it doesn't matter. Perianne stated specific concerns and expressed specific goals. Whatever else may have been said on other threads about home defense or handguns or anything else is completely irrelevant.

Try sticking to the issue under discussion instead of falling back on other discussions to disguise the fact that you are either over your head or just lost track of the subject after 20+ pages. I would like to think it was the latter.

If you want to discuss combat handgunnery, I would be happy to do so. If you want to discuss the relative merits of shotguns versus rifles for personal defense, I would be happy to do so. If you want to discuss edged weapons and their pros and cons, I would be happy to do so.

Right now, though, we are discussing armament options for Perianne to use in the defense of her home and the surrounding ground, not her living room.

----------


## Perianne

Now, in  reality it is a well-established axiom of ballistics that longer barrels  = higher velocity, up to a point.  The longer the barrel is, the more  distance the bullet will travel while still being contained in the  sealed environment of the barrel, and that means the expanding gases  from the burning gunpowder can push on the bullet longer, thus  increasing its velocity.  This is all obvious and well-understood.  And  the knock against a short barrel has always been that it’s possible for  the bullet to exit the barrel before the expanding gases have fully  expanded, so any further expansion they do will be out into the  atmosphere and not pressing against the bullet.  Accordingly, really  short barrels have usually been pretty bad at generating decent  velocities. *And an inch or two can make* *either** a significant  difference*, or a miniscule difference; it really depends on where the  barrel length difference comes in.  The difference between a 6″ barrel  and an 8″ barrel might be minor, but the difference between a 1″ barrel  and a 3″ barrel will be huge!  In the longer 6″ barrel the expanding  gases may have done most of their job pushing the bullet by the time  that bullet exits the barrel; there may not be much more that will be  gained from the 8″ barrel.  However, on a 1″ barrel, the gases very  likely will have just barely have started expanding by the time the  bullet pops out of that tiny barrel!  Any further expansion is just  wasted.

I have always found that to be true.   :Smile:

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usfan (10-22-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> Now, in  reality it is a well-established axiom of ballistics that longer barrels  = higher velocity, up to a point.  The longer the barrel is, the more  distance the bullet will travel while still being contained in the  sealed environment of the barrel, and that means the expanding gases  from the burning gunpowder can push on the bullet longer, thus  increasing its velocity.  This is all obvious and well-understood.  And  the knock against a short barrel has always been that it’s possible for  the bullet to exit the barrel before the expanding gases have fully  expanded, so any further expansion they do will be out into the  atmosphere and not pressing against the bullet.  Accordingly, really  short barrels have usually been pretty bad at generating decent  velocities. *And an inch or two can make* *either** a significant  difference*, or a miniscule difference; it really depends on where the  barrel length difference comes in.  The difference between a 6″ barrel  and an 8″ barrel might be minor, but the difference between a 1″ barrel  and a 3″ barrel will be huge!  In the longer 6″ barrel the expanding  gases may have done most of their job pushing the bullet by the time  that bullet exits the barrel; there may not be much more that will be  gained from the 8″ barrel.  However, on a 1″ barrel, the gases very  likely will have just barely have started expanding by the time the  bullet pops out of that tiny barrel!  Any further expansion is just  wasted.
> 
> I have always found that to be true.


I'm sure!  A difference between "hmmm" and "Hey there!"

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> No. The powder is responsible for pushing the slug. More powder, or powder of a finer grain will push the slug faster. The barrel is responsible for directing the slug.


You might want to compare the muzzle velocities of pistol caliber cartridges fired from a 4 inch barrel, then from a 16 inch barrel, then go back and edit your post.

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usfan (10-22-2013)

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## Maximatic

> Now, in  reality it is a well-established axiom of ballistics that longer barrels  = higher velocity, up to a point.  The longer the barrel is, the more  distance the bullet will travel while still being contained in the  sealed environment of the barrel, and that means the expanding gases  from the burning gunpowder can push on the bullet longer, thus  increasing its velocity.  This is all obvious and well-understood.  And  the knock against a short barrel has always been that it’s possible for  the bullet to exit the barrel before the expanding gases have fully  expanded, so any further expansion they do will be out into the  atmosphere and not pressing against the bullet.  Accordingly, really  short barrels have usually been pretty bad at generating decent  velocities. *And an inch or two can make* *either** a significant  difference*, or a miniscule difference; it really depends on where the  barrel length difference comes in.  The difference between a 6″ barrel  and an 8″ barrel might be minor, but the difference between a 1″ barrel  and a 3″ barrel will be huge!  In the longer 6″ barrel the expanding  gases may have done most of their job pushing the bullet by the time  that bullet exits the barrel; there may not be much more that will be  gained from the 8″ barrel.  However, on a 1″ barrel, the gases very  likely will have just barely have started expanding by the time the  bullet pops out of that tiny barrel!  Any further expansion is just  wasted.
> 
> I have always found that to be true.


Wow, I hadn't thought about that. I guess I was wrong. I wouldn't call it an axiom, though.

 


> *And an inch or two can make*





> *either** a significant  difference*,


It depends on what kind of scale you're working with.

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## usfan

A lever 357 would be a great addition to the pistol.. it does extend the range of the round, & gives it a bit more 'oomph'.  But it is still not a long range round..  ~100yds is about it.  I've got a 9mm & 44 mag in carbines, & like them a lot.  But after ~100 yds, i'd rather have a 223 out of a 16" bbl, or even the 7.62x39 ak round.  If Peri was my sister or daughter, i'd recommend an ar or mini 14, like i did earlier.  I have no idea why BG thought it would have too much kick or be hard to handle.  Jonesy has one, & they are practical, lightweight, low recoil firearms.  If i suddenly had to head for the hills, i'd grab the ar, first, with lots of loaded mags.  Then i'd add the glock 9mm, because 9s are smaller & more numerous than 45acp.  I'd miss my 1911s, but i'd take the 9mm glock.  Then i'd throw a shotgun on, with as many shells as i could carry...  ok, i'd also take the mkiii ruger 22 pistol..

Come to think of it, why should i go anywhere?  Let them come to me & deal with my marksmanship & tactical advantage.   :Big Grin:   I bet if archer & rocky joined me here, we'd be a formidable opponent in small arms conflict.  Trin can bring her judge, too, & cover the doors!
 :Smiley Char092:

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Archer (10-22-2013),Max Rockatansky (10-23-2013),Perianne (10-22-2013)

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## Perianne

> I bet if archer & rocky joined me here, we'd be a formidable opponent in small arms conflict.  Trin can bring her judge, too, & cover the doors!


Don't forget Peri.  Peri got guns now.  I am thinking of changing my name to Janie.

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Trinnity (10-24-2013)

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## Archer

> @Archer, someone posted that video before and I asked a question that was never answered.
> 
> Does a lever action rifle shoot a bullet every time you lever it, like it does on there?  That seems unsafe.


You have to have the trigger pulled. Like a wheel gun. You can hold the trigger in on an SA and fire it with the hammer until empty.

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Perianne (10-23-2013)

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## Archer

> A lever 357 would be a great addition to the pistol.. it does extend the range of the round, & gives it a bit more 'oomph'.  But it is still not a long range round..  ~100yds is about it.  I've got a 9mm & 44 mag in carbines, & like them a lot.  But after ~100 yds, i'd rather have a 223 out of a 16" bbl, or even the 7.62x39 ak round.  If Peri was my sister or daughter, i'd recommend an ar or mini 14, like i did earlier.  I have no idea why BG thought it would have too much kick or be hard to handle.  Jonesy has one, & they are practical, lightweight, low recoil firearms.  If i suddenly had to head for the hills, i'd grab the ar, first, with lots of loaded mags.  Then i'd add the glock 9mm, because 9s are smaller & more numerous than 45acp.  I'd miss my 1911s, but i'd take the 9mm glock.  Then i'd throw a shotgun on, with as many shells as i could carry...  ok, i'd also take the mkiii ruger 22 pistol..
> 
> Come to think of it, why should i go anywhere?  Let them come to me & deal with my marksmanship & tactical advantage.    I bet if archer & rocky joined me here, we'd be a formidable opponent in small arms conflict.  Trin can bring her judge, too, & cover the doors!


AHHHH :Smile:  I can do much more than small arms at a moments notice.

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## Max Rockatansky

> A lever 357 would be a great addition to the pistol.. it does extend the range of the round, & gives it a bit more 'oomph'.  But it is still not a long range round..  ~100yds is about it.  I've got a 9mm & 44 mag in carbines, & like them a lot.  But after ~100 yds, i'd rather have a 223 out of a 16" bbl, or even the 7.62x39 ak round.  If Peri was my sister or daughter, i'd recommend an ar or mini 14, like i did earlier.  I have no idea why BG thought it would have too much kick or be hard to handle.  Jonesy has one, & they are practical, lightweight, low recoil firearms.  If i suddenly had to head for the hills, i'd grab the ar, first, with lots of loaded mags.  Then i'd add the glock 9mm, because 9s are smaller & more numerous than 45acp.  I'd miss my 1911s, but i'd take the 9mm glock.  Then i'd throw a shotgun on, with as many shells as i could carry...  ok, i'd also take the mkiii ruger 22 pistol..
> 
> Come to think of it, why should i go anywhere?  Let them come to me & deal with my marksmanship & tactical advantage.    I bet if archer & rocky joined me here, we'd be a formidable opponent in small arms conflict.  Trin can bring her judge, too, & cover the doors!


While I'd dearly love to have a lever-action .357 due to it's retro elegance and shooting power, due to the cost, I'd rather have something which gives me more bang for the buck.  The link below shows it adds 40-49% increased velocity compared to a 4" revolver.  The bad news is all only hold 6-9 rounds and are loaded through a tube.  For about the same cost, I would rather have a magazine fed semi-auto in 5.56 or 7.62X39.  AFAIK, no manufacturer makes a semi-auto carbine in .357.  

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...vs-357-magnum/

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Perianne (10-23-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> AHHHH I can do much more than small arms at a moments notice.


Got any Claymore's stashed in the weapons locker?

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Come to think of it, why should i go anywhere?  Let them come to me & deal with my marksmanship & tactical advantage.    I bet if archer & rocky joined me here, we'd be a formidable opponent in small arms conflict.  Trin can bring her judge, too, & cover the doors!

----------


## Archer

> Got any Claymore's stashed in the weapons locker?


That would be illegal because I have not legally acquired any.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

If the need arises, I'm sure we can figure out a way to make some PETN and find a supply of BBs.

----------


## Gemini

> If the need arises, I'm sure we can figure out a way to make some PETN and find a supply of BBs.


Ghetto plastique isn't to hard to make, you only need petroleum jelly and some ______.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Ghetto plastique isn't to hard to make, you only need petroleum jelly and some ______.


Home chemistry at its finest.    :Big Grin:

----------


## Gemini

> Home chemistry at its finest.


Improvised Munitions Manual.  A thing of beauty.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Improvised Munitions Manual.  A thing of beauty.


A fine addition to anyone's library.  Can't be hacked by the NSA either!

Since the advent of Google, most of my library is collecting dust.  My stock of reference manuals is stored in foot locker.  I think I have the IM manual, but would have to check.  Now that you've mentioned it, I'll have to dig them out.  Maybe toss in a few moth balls to keep the critters out.

----------


## Rudy2D

> Maybe toss in a few moth balls to keep the critters out.


See how heartless you are?  You'd even cut the balls off a moth.

----------

Gemini (10-24-2013),Perianne (10-23-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> See how heartless you are?  You'd even cut the balls off a moth.


Funny, lol.

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Rudy2D (10-25-2013)

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## Gemini

> A fine addition to anyone's library.  Can't be hacked by the NSA either!
> 
> Since the advent of Google, most of my library is collecting dust.  My stock of reference manuals is stored in foot locker.  I think I have the IM manual, but would have to check.  Now that you've mentioned it, I'll have to dig them out.  Maybe toss in a few moth balls to keep the critters out.


That one manual is a revolution in a box.  I thought about publishing the recipes on a blog once.  But a nanosecond later I realized I would have the feds so far up my ass for doing it I could taste the microscope.

----------


## Archer

I think I prefer explosive chemical attack. Few if any moralities and it takes out 1-3 people per one affected enemy.

Lets look at some tactics here... If you have 20 coming at you better to disable 7 than kill 14. Six pissed off marines are more dangerous that 13 that are taking care of their brothers and trying to stay alive themselves.

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Gemini (10-24-2013)

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## Perianne

> Improvised Munitions Manual. A thing of beauty.


I looked at that on a website.  Is that stuff for real?  Do those "recipes" actually work?

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## Gemini

> I looked at that on a website.  Is that stuff for real?  Do those "recipes" actually work?


The military only uses things that work.  Stuff that doesn't work, quickly gets tossed.

----------


## Gemini

> I think I prefer explosive chemical attack. Few if any moralities and it takes out 1-3 people per one affected enemy.
> 
> Lets look at some tactics here... If you have 20 coming at you better do disable 7 than kill 14. Six pissed off marines are more dangerous that 13 that are taking care of their brothers and trying to stay alive themselves.


Black powder, baby food jars, 5 second fuse.

Glass shrapnel, plenty of casualties, few if any fatalities, but a massive expense.  And cheap to make with wonderful alibi - I got kids to feed.

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## Perianne

> The military only uses things that work. Stuff that doesn't work, quickly gets tossed.


I guess you have a point there and my question was a silly one.

----------


## Archer

> Black powder, baby food jars, 5 second fuse.
> 
> Glass shrapnel, plenty of casualties, few if any fatalities, but a massive expense.  And cheap to make with wonderful alibi - I got kids to feed.


I am thinking more like something with a little ammonia, chlorine, 1 qt to 1/2 gallon glass bottles with a few dry chemicals, sch. 40 pipe and smokeless powder.

Irritate skin and eyes, shrapnel damage, lung irritation causing confusion and giving time to either bug out or hunker down and open fire.

I would rather bug out.

----------

Gemini (10-24-2013)

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## Gemini

> I am thinking more like something with a little ammonia, chlorine, 1 qt to 1/2 gallon glass bottles with a few dry chemicals, sch. 40 pipe and smokeless powder.
> 
> Irritate skin and eyes, shrapnel damage, lung irritation causing confusion and giving time to either bug out or hunker down and open fire.
> 
> I would rather bug out.


Same ingredients, but with a cherry bomb in the baby food jar.  Light it, and you achieve a similar result, but on a much smaller scale.  Mix with a few smoke bombs, and you may as well be Batman with a dash of chemical weaponry.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I think I prefer explosive chemical attack. Few if any moralities and it takes out 1-3 people per one affected enemy.
> 
> Lets look at some tactics here... If you have 20 coming at you better to disable 7 than kill 14. Six pissed off marines are more dangerous that 13 that are taking care of their brothers and trying to stay alive themselves.


It depends on the mission:  what are you trying to accomplish?  A raid to obtain weapons and material?  Hit and run?  Custer's Last Stand?  Maximum damage?

The mission determines the tactics and, therefore, the weapons used.  

In a revolution, I'd be thinking the scenario would most likely be National Guard then Army.

----------


## Archer

> It depends on the mission:  what are you trying to accomplish?  A raid to obtain weapons and material?  Hit and run?  Custer's Last Stand?  Maximum damage?
> 
> The mission determines the tactics and, therefore, the weapons used.  
> 
> In a revolution, I'd be thinking the scenario would most likely be National Guard then Army.


I think I need to drop this. I almost got to a point where I would feel uncomfortable with my post. It would be one thing if this were a closed nonpublic forum but posting some things may cause people to actually play with this stuff and get hurt, hurt somebody else or go to jail. Playing what if and having a solid plan is one thing but feeding information to the public (or wanna be terrorists) that could cause serious injury is another.

----------

Gemini (10-24-2013),usfan (10-24-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> I think I need to drop this. I almost got to a point where I would feel uncomfortable with my post. It would be one thing if this were a closed nonpublic forum but posting some things may cause people to actually play with this stuff and get hurt, hurt somebody else or go to jail. Playing what if and having a solid plan is one thing but feeding information to the public (or wanna be terrorists) that could cause serious injury is another.


Always a good idea.  If the NSA listens in in foreign heads of state, they are certainly scrutinizing forums for right-wing radical groups. 

My dad served two tours in Vietnam.  One was in Cam Ranh Bay.   The bay was beautiful and used for both swiming and sailing, hence the"Cam Ranh Bay yacht club patch some may have seen.  It was also full of sharks.   For both sport and taking the offensive on the sharks, the base would launch a Huey carrying hand grenades stuffed into empty glass peanut butter jars.  The jars kept the spoon held against the grenade, but with the pin pulled and dropped over a shark, the grenade would break through the glass and detonate 3.5 seconds laters (IIRC) thus ruining the shark's day.

My dad rode with the Huey one day, but seeing those peanut butter jars rattling in a box near the cargo door made him nervous enough not to go for a second flight.

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> The military only uses things that work.  Stuff that doesn't work, quickly gets tossed.


Please tell me that was sarcasm.

----------


## Gemini

> Please tell me that was sarcasm.


No.  It isn't sarcasm.

Stuff that doesn't work quickly gets tossed.  Doesn't mean that the wigs who actually buy the stuff ever learn this lesson though.

Are you telling me that grunts do not invent things that work?

The things that are important generally work very well - rifles, boots, ponchos etc...

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> No.  It isn't sarcasm.
> 
> Stuff that doesn't work quickly gets tossed.  Doesn't mean that the wigs who actually buy the stuff ever learn this lesson though.
> 
> Are you telling me that grunts do not invent things that work?
> 
> The things that are important generally work very well - rifles, boots, ponchos etc...


Leadership, teamwork and "one shot, one kill".   Those work too and we don't need Congress to do it.

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## Perianne

I have guns now.  If the government decides that it's time for SHTF, won't they come and take away our guns first?  I mean they have all the paperwork to know who has most of the guns.  And if Earl is correct, they will only take whitey's guns, figuring the negras will be on government's side.

----------


## Archer

> I have guns now.  If the government decides that it's time for SHTF, won't they come and take away our guns first?  I mean they have all the paperwork to know who has most of the guns.  And if Earl is correct, they will only take whitey's guns, figuring the negras will be on government's side.


No mam! That paperwork is used one time and that is it. No records are kept.

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## Perianne

> No mam! That paperwork is used one time and that is it. No records are kept.


Considering NSA and all, how do you know that for sure?

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## Max Rockatansky

> I have guns now.  If the government decides that it's time for SHTF, won't they come and take away our guns first?  I mean they have all the paperwork to know who has most of the guns.  And *if Earl is correct, they will only take whitey's guns, figuring the negras will be on government's side.*


Who is Earl? Why does he figure the "negras" would automatically side with martial law?

As for _the government comin' to take our guns_, I'm not worried about it.  The would be enough civil unrest that even if some guns were confiscated, enough people could take many back.  Once taken, it would be a simple matter of using guerrilla warfare tactics to obtain even more. 

Weapons can be forged from many materials even if it is just a wall of meat armed with wooden spears.  Molotov cocktails, spikes in the road, rock falls.  It's a matter of will to do and smart thinking.  

There are many books on it.  My humble suggestion for people who are afraid of the SHTF is to read.  Read and learn as much as possible about tactics, strategy, innovation, weapons and any other topics which could be useful.  People can be denied guns, rights and all sorts of things, but no one has ever figured out how to take something out of another person's head except by killing them.

Try listening to this.  Not once, but at least a few times.




If you want to download it and put it your MP3 player or burn it to a CD, use this program to download it.  When it asks to install tool bars and such, don't.  It's not malware, but it's a pain: http://www.dvdvideosoft.com/products...-Converter.htm

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President Peanut (10-30-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

I haven't listened to this yet, but am downloading it now.  It looks interesting:

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## Perianne

> Who is Earl? Why does he figure the "negras" would automatically side with martial law?


 I'll never forget that terrible day.... They knocked on my door at five in the morning. I was completely unsuspecting as I got up to see who it was. 


I opened the door, and four Negroes came pushing into the apartment before I could stop them. One was carrying a baseball bat, and two had long kitchen knives thrust into their belts. The one with the bat shoved me back into a corner and stood guard over me with his bat raised in a threatening position while the other three began ransacking my apartment.  My first thought was that they were robbers. Robberies of this sort had become all too common since the Cohen Act, with groups of Blacks forcing their way into White homes to rob and rape, knowing that even if their victims had guns they probably would not dare use them. 


 
One of the details which bothered people was that the raiders had, for the most part, exempted Black neighborhoods from the searches. The explanation given at first for this was that since "racists" were the ones primarily suspected of harboring firearms, there was relatively little need to search Black homes. 

excerpt from _The Turner Diaries_

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## Pooltablerepairman

_The Turner Diaries_... Really?

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## Max Rockatansky

Sorry, dear, but the Turner Diaries is a work of fiction.  Do you have anything factual to quote? 

Something like this?

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## Perianne

> _The Turner Diaries_... Really?


Yes, really.  I know you are new here, but don't be condescending to Peri;  it's not nice.





> Sorry, dear, but the Turner Diaries is a work of fiction.  Do you have anything factual to quote?


I know it is fiction.  That is why I said "if Earl is correct".

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## Max Rockatansky

> I know it is fiction.  That is why I said "if Earl is correct".


I'm sorry.  My point wasn't to demean, but to point in another direction.  Previously, you and I had discussed becoming indispensable to a survival group.  Medical experts are on valuable resource.  The same thinking goes with my previous post:  Knowledge.  Guns can be taken from you or for you, but if the SHTF, most sources of learning would be lost; universities, schools, libraries, television, the Internet, etc.

Books would still exist, but it's rather difficult to learn how to build a fire while reading a book in the dark in the rain.   It's difficult to read a book on tactics when being chased by the Russian jack-booted Blue Helmets through the hills of Kentucky. (not that I think there is a snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening)

It's far better to have that knowledge locked in your head beforehand.  If you are truly concerned about this, start arming yourself with an overabundance of knowledge, not an overabundance of ammo.

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Perianne (10-29-2013)

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## Archer

> Considering NSA and all, how do you know that for sure?


What the government knows... You had a ping on your name in the background check DB. What you bought, if you bought, if it was for a gun or anything else they do not know nor can they find out as the records are destroyed.

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Perianne (10-29-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> I'm sorry.  My point wasn't to demean, but to point in another direction.  Previously, you and I had discussed becoming indispensable to a survival group.  Medical experts are on valuable resource.  The same thinking goes with my previous post:  Knowledge.  Guns can be taken from you or for you, but if the SHTF, most sources of learning would be lost; universities, schools, libraries, television, the Internet, etc.
> 
> Books would still exist, but it's rather difficult to learn how to build a fire while reading a book in the dark in the rain.   It's difficult to read a book on tactics when being chased by the Russian jack-booted Blue Helmets through the hills of Kentucky. (not that I think there is a snowball's chance in hell of that ever happening)
> 
> It's far better to have that knowledge locked in your head beforehand.  If you are truly concerned about this, start arming yourself with an overabundance of knowledge, not an overabundance of ammo.


I know you are not being mean to me.  You are always nice.

I have been studying and reading and doing all kinds of things.  I have many books that I have read.  Like you, I don't really think SHTF is coming, but I want to be prepared just in case.

You are a man and you have probably never been so afraid that you lose touch with reality and can't even remember what happened.  I am afraid of bad men.  Been there, done that.  Women like me won't survive long without protection.  Thus, this thread.

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## Max Rockatansky

> I know you are not being mean to me.  You are always nice.
> 
> I have been studying and reading and doing all kinds of things.  I have many books that I have read.  Like you, I don't really think SHTF is coming, but I want to be prepared just in case.
> 
> You are a man and you have probably never been so afraid that you lose touch with reality and can't even remember what happened.  I am afraid of bad men.  Been there, done that.  Women like me won't survive long without protection.  Thus, this thread.


Many people, both men and women, have been victims.  As the wise saying goes, "Failure isn't falling down, but refusing to get back up".  If someone knocks us down, we have a choice: to fight or to submit.   That choice isn't limited to either male or female.  It's an attitude, not a gender characteristic.

----------


## Gemini

> I know you are not being mean to me.  You are always nice.
> 
> I have been studying and reading and doing all kinds of things.  I have many books that I have read.  Like you, I don't really think SHTF is coming, but I want to be prepared just in case.
> 
> You are a man and you have probably never been so afraid that you lose touch with reality and can't even remember what happened.  I am afraid of bad men.  Been there, done that.  Women like me won't survive long without protection.  Thus, this thread.


Get two mastiffs.  Raise them from puppies.  Your home will not be trifled with - at least by melee attackers anyways.

Or rescue a dog from the pound, that can usually pan out okay.

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Perianne (10-29-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

I have no problem with mastiffs and that is probably a really good idea for a woman living alone.   Be warned however about the slobber.  ICK.  And unfortunately these baby dolls have short lives.  9 years if you're lucky.  Once they get down, you more or less have to have them put to sleep.   Too short a time for me to lose my heart to one/two/four.  They are sweethearts and gentle giants but to strangers showing up at your house unannounced they can be rather intimidating.

----------


## Gemini

> I have no problem with mastiffs and that is probably a really good idea for a woman living alone.   Be warned however about the slobber.  ICK.  And unfortunately these baby dolls have short lives.  9 years if you're lucky.  Once they get down, you more or less have to have them put to sleep.   Too short a time for me to fall in love with one.  They are sweethearts and gentle giants but to strangers showing up at your house unannounced they can be rather intimidating.


While it is true the larger breeds live shorter, much of this is dependent nutrition.  Most dogs don't get the nutrition they need from typical pet food.  Many of the enzymes they need are roasted out of the food.

Think about it.  Since when did wolves cook their food?  Naturally, dogs would be eating the guts of an animal raw.  They are predators by nature.

----------


## Rudy2D

> Get two mastiffs.  Raise them from puppies.  Your home will not be trifled with - at least by melee attackers anyways.
> 
> Or rescue a dog from the pound, that can usually pan out okay.


Rescue a couple of Pit Bulls; they come from Mastiffs (strength and size) and Terriers (gameness).

----------


## usfan

Intruders in our house would be faced with one of the fiercest animals in the kingdom!  A chihuahua!

The ferociousness of the attack would send any would be attackers running for their lives..




 :Laughing7:

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Perianne (10-29-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

Back in the mid-90s I had a girl friend in Key West, FL. I'd visit her about once a week between my travels.  I visited so much that I bought a bicycle and usually rode it wherever I needed to go.  The island is only about 2 miles by 4 miles.  One time I borrowed her car to go to the book store.  She had a "This property is protected by a Pitt Bull with AIDS" sticker on it.  As I locked up the car and started to walk into the store, an old guy, about mid-60s, looked at it and sternly said, "I have a friend who has AIDS and I don't think that's funny".   "Good for you" was my reply.   Frankly I didn't give a shit.  It's sad people get sick, but some people need to relax. We're all dying so WTF, eh?

----------


## Gemini

> Intruders in our house would be faced with one of the fiercest animals in the kingdom!  A chihuahua!
> 
> The ferociousness of the attack would send any would be attackers running for their lives..


I vote we play a game of barking football with this thing.  

Anybody up for it?

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I vote we play a game of barking football with this thing.  
> 
> Anybody up for it?



Didn't a Marine do that with a puppy in Iraq? 

BTW, there are several old military training films on youtube.  Some are bit hokey, but for those who've never been in the military, some educational facts can be gleaned by watching. 







Scroll to the bottom for links to free military books:  http://quickfound.net/links/military...and_links.html

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Perianne (10-29-2013)

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## Perianne

> I vote we play a game of barking football with this thing.  
> 
> Anybody up for it?


That's mean, Gemini. I love little doggies.

----------


## Gemini

> That's mean, Gemini. I love little doggies.


Little dogs serve a purpose.  Alarm and rodent control, and the occasional barking football game.  Not personal protection.

If little dogs didn't yap so much, and weren't so aggressive, they might not be in so many football games.

----------


## Rudy2D

http://www.paladin-press.com/categor..._Self-Reliance

http://www.paladin-press.com/category/PDF

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Gemini (10-29-2013)

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

> Yes, really.  I know you are new here, but don't be condescending to Peri;  it's not nice.


I wasn't being condescending. I was expressing shock and maybe a little dismay. I can kind of understand someone, particularly someone who is relatively new to the survivalist/prepper (I hate what people have done to those perfectly good words) scene might want to read the book just because it is well known and there is a lot of controversy surrounding it. I just hope that after reading it, the reader would see it as it is and not as some rational predictor of a viable scenario.

Perianne, there is a lot of very good information out there. There is also a lot of garbage. Some of it is garbage because the "facts" are wrong and the advice is bad, maybe even dangerous. Some of it is garbage because of the ideology it promotes.

Just be careful.

----------

Archer (10-29-2013),Gemini (10-29-2013),Perianne (10-29-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

> Back in the mid-90s I had a girl friend in Key West, FL. I'd visit her about once a week between my travels.  I visited so much that I bought a bicycle and usually rode it wherever I needed to go.  The island is only about 2 miles by 4 miles.  One time I borrowed her car to go to the book store.  She had a "This property is protected by a Pitt Bull with AIDS" sticker on it.  As I locked up the car and started to walk into the store, an old guy, about mid-60s, looked at it and sternly said, "I have a friend who has AIDS and I don't think that's funny".   "Good for you" was my reply.   Frankly I didn't give a shit.  It's sad people get sick, but some people need to relax. We're all dying so WTF, eh?


Max...what the hell.   That was cruel.  and you zap me periodically for being mean?   Actually I don't care what you did, just the inconsistency.

----------


## Archer

> Max...what the hell.   That was cruel.  and you zap me periodically for being mean?   Actually I don't care what you did, just the inconsistency.


Well the guy and his friend can just get Alzheimers disease and forget about it.

Sorry I have no sympathy for 99% of the AIDS victims out there and I wish them a quick death.

----------


## Calypso Jones

There's no shame in pity for these people.  The ones that have been exposed to it innocently enough and the ones that engage in risky behavior.

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Gemini (10-29-2013)

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## Perianne

> I wasn't being condescending. I was expressing shock and maybe a little dismay. I can kind of understand someone, particularly someone who is relatively new to the survivalist/prepper (I hate what people have done to those perfectly good words) scene might want to read the book just because it is well known and there is a lot of controversy surrounding it. I just hope that after reading it, the reader would see it as it is and not as some rational predictor of a viable scenario.
> 
> Perianne, there is a lot of very good information out there. There is also a lot of garbage. Some of it is garbage because the "facts" are wrong and the advice is bad, maybe even dangerous. Some of it is garbage because of the ideology it promotes.
> 
> Just be careful.


Thanks, @Pooltablerepairman.  

BTW, I read _The Turner Diaries_ many, many years ago.  It stuck in my mind.  I see many of the things that were in that book coming true today.  You guys have prepared for whatever happens your whole life.  You are men.  Here I am 56 years old and always had a tough man to look out for me.  I didn't have to worry about those things because he had it covered and he was a helluva man.  He always knew what to do, as you guys do.  Until, and if, I find another strong man, I have to learn it all myself.  And it is hard to start from nothing.

Some people on here have misunderstood my fear and wanting to learn.  I see guys like @Archer and @Max Rockatansky and @usfan and @Gemini and others as the type of man my husband was:  tough and knowledgeable.  I knew he would always protect me.  My confidence in human beings collapsed ten years ago this month and I have never been the same, but I knew he was there for me.  Now he's not and I am alone to fend for myself and my daughter.  I don't know anyone to trust.  

I am trying my hardest to do the best I can.  That is why I keep asking questions as they pop into my head.  I worry about things.  It is that fear and drive that will make me the best I can be, right?

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Max Rockatansky (10-30-2013)

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## Gemini

Valid concerns in the continually decaying modern era.

My advice?  Remarry.  If you behave in a feminine way, a man will snatch you up swiftly.  Behave otherwise and you'll enjoy the solitude you currently have with its boons and its banes.

While searching for a spouse I would continually learn new skills and tactics that will help you along the way towards your goal of self sufficiency and safety.
 @Perianne

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Perianne (10-29-2013)

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## Perianne

> My advice?  Remarry.  If you behave in a feminine way, a man will snatch you up swiftly.  Behave otherwise and you'll enjoy the solitude you currently have with its boons and its banes.


I am always feminine.  I don't know what you mean by that.

----------


## Pooltablerepairman

Don't stop asking questions.

----------


## Gemini

> Don't stop asking questions.


But don't hesitate to to challenge and salt to taste the info you get.

As pooltable recommended earlier, there is a ton of misinformation out there.  Much of it due to ignorance, much of it due to deliberate sabotage.

----------

Perianne (10-29-2013)

----------


## Gemini

> I am always feminine.  I don't know what you mean by that.


I didn't challenge your femininity.

----------


## Perianne

> But don't hesitate to to challenge and salt to taste the info you get.
> 
> As pooltable recommended earlier, there is a ton of misinformation out there.  Much of it due to ignorance, much of it due to deliberate sabotage.


I read a lot of stuff.  I have several different books about the same information, written by special forces people.

On the other hand, I am a medical person and some books have medical information that is pure horse poopie.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Max...what the hell.   That was cruel.  and you zap me periodically for being mean?   Actually I don't care what you did, just the inconsistency.


That was 20 years ago.  I've mellowed a bit since then.  Still, it was bullshit on his part.  My GF changing her sticker wasn't going to cure his friend.

----------


## Rudy2D

> Here I am 56 years old and always had a tough man to look out for me.  I didn't have to worry about those things because he had it covered and he was a helluva man.  He always knew what to do, as you guys do.  Until, and if, I find another strong man, I have to learn it all myself.  And it is hard to start from nothing.


Post a pic; you may get some volunteers.   :Thumbsup20:

----------


## Kolohe

> My confidence in human beings collapsed ten years ago this month and I have never been the same, but I knew he was there for me.  Now he's not and I am alone to fend for myself and my daughter.  I don't know anyone to trust.


Oh Peri...  I did not realize that this month marked 10 years after that horrible event. (Some friend I am.) But that is not a good memory to take down off the shelf and reexamine. Try to put it back, honey.... please? (((Hugs)))

----------

Max Rockatansky (10-30-2013),usfan (10-30-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> Oh Peri...  I did not realize that this month marked 10 years after that horrible event. (Some friend I am.) But that is not a good memory to take down off the shelf and reexamine. Try to put it back, honey.... please? (((Hugs)))


I don't know all the details, and I don't need to.  The effects are obvious, but I agree with you; after 10 years, reopening wounds every anniversary can't be healthy.  While we should learn from the past, we shouldn't let it limit or continue to hurt us.

----------

Kolohe (10-30-2013)

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## usfan

> I don't know all the details, and I don't need to.  The effects are obvious, but I agree with you; after 10 years, reopening wounds every anniversary can't be healthy.  While we should learn from the past, we shouldn't let it limit or continue to hurt us.


Peri's pretty tough.. or tough & pretty..   :Big Grin: 

But traumatic events in life never completely go away, & still affect you, even subconsciously.  Every year i am aware of my older daughter's death, on the anniversary.  We don't dwell on it, but when the date comes up, we remember.  It's kind of like remembering where you were at during 911 or the kennedy assassination.  It doesn't mean you're obsessing, but neither can you completely forget, nor should you.

I think if buying a firearm makes her feel a bit better, she should do it.  I have never needed a firearm for self defense, & hope never to need one.  Probably, Peri will never need one, either, for the rest of her life.  But it is like the old saying, 'better to have it & not need it, than to need it & not have it'.  It will calm her fears to have a working firearm nearby in her house.  It is an equalizer, & empowers her.  A big thug would find a powerful adversary in Peri should he break in her house.

_Armed people are free. No state can control those who have the machinery and the will to resist, no mob can take their liberty and property. And no 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out  People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically right. Guns ended that, and a social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. ~L. Neil Smith_

----------

Kolohe (10-30-2013),Perianne (10-30-2013)

----------


## President Peanut

I agree with Max from a few pages back. They can try and take the guns. They can start anywhere they like--city or rural. It doesn't matter because the minute it happens, people will talk and the word will spread. In this scenario, I frankly hold more "fear" of the individual subject than I do the government. The government is easy enough to avoid and move around (see Iraq and Afghanistan insurgencies, Al Qaeda, Katrina/Sandy aftermath, etc.). However, the individual subject, primarily from the cities, would flee from the ensuing violence in those areas and they would come straight into my rural areas. I also fear that the individual subject, also armed with the knowledge that rural areas were disarmed/in the process of disarming, would attempt robberies and other crimes. That is where I would start planning, as you would need to be in a larger system to truly fight the government in this situation.

----------


## Perianne

As mentioned in another thread, I think my Ruger 10/22 deserves a name.  What would be a good name for her (yes, she is a "her")?

----------


## Archer

> As mentioned in another thread, I think my Ruger 10/22 deserves a name.  What would be a good name for her (yes, she is a "her")?


Pee Shooter!

----------


## Perianne

> Pee Shooter!


lol

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I agree with Max from a few pages back. They can try and take the guns. They can start anywhere they like--city or rural. It doesn't matter because the minute it happens, people will talk and the word will spread. In this scenario, I frankly hold more "fear" of the individual subject than I do the government. The government is easy enough to avoid and move around (see Iraq and Afghanistan insurgencies, Al Qaeda, Katrina/Sandy aftermath, etc.). However, the individual subject, primarily from the cities, would flee from the ensuing violence in those areas and they would come straight into my rural areas. I also fear that the individual subject, also armed with the knowledge that rural areas were disarmed/in the process of disarming, would attempt robberies and other crimes. That is where I would start planning, as you would need to be in a larger system to truly fight the government in this situation.


Good point about those fleeing the cities with criminal intent.  I think this can be handled under the heading of "evacuation and disaster control".  Local agencies from the police, fire department, National Guard along with medical groups would be involved as a network of communication and coordination.  Local citizens should be made aware and kept informed of contingency plans and how to report problems.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Peri's pretty tough.. or tough & pretty..  
> 
> But traumatic events in life never completely go away, & still affect you, even subconsciously.  Every year i am aware of my older daughter's death, on the anniversary.  We don't dwell on it, but when the date comes up, we remember.  It's kind of like remembering where you were at during 911 or the kennedy assassination.  It doesn't mean you're obsessing, but neither can you completely forget, nor should you.
> 
> I think if buying a firearm makes her feel a bit better, she should do it.  I have never needed a firearm for self defense, & hope never to need one.  Probably, Peri will never need one, either, for the rest of her life.  But it is like the old saying, 'better to have it & not need it, than to need it & not have it'.  It will calm her fears to have a working firearm nearby in her house.  It is an equalizer, & empowers her.  A big thug would find a powerful adversary in Peri should he break in her house.
> 
> _Armed people are free. No state can control those who have the machinery and the will to resist, no mob can take their liberty and property. And no 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out … People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically right. Guns ended that, and a social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work. ~L. Neil Smith_


I feel better about having my guns, but like you, I hope I never have to use one in self-defense and the odds are I won't.   

Remembering is fine.  It's if that remembering causes further pain that it should be addressed with an eye toward healing.

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## usfan

> I feel better about having my guns, but like you, I hope I never have to use one in self-defense and the odds are I won't.   
> Remembering is fine.  It's if that remembering causes further pain that it should be addressed with an eye toward healing.


It's kind of funny.. i hear a lot of preppers & shtf watchers & '3%'ers' talk about guns a lot.  They plot & analyze, & try to second guess what they might need.  But for all the years i've had firearms, i never really thought of them like that.  They were a hobby for me.. i liked to shoot & polish my marksmanship.  Perhaps the practical side in me subconsciously thinks, 'this will be a good skill for when the shtf', but i don't think it consciously.  I just like to reload, shoot, tinker, tweak, mod, & fool around with firearms.  Financially, it's not a bad hobby.. i have worse ones.. computers, for example.  You get a new, cutting edge computer, & within a year or so it is obsolete.  Firearms can go up in value, & most have.

But i'm sure, that if a thief broke in & stole all my guns, or if obama came over & took them all while joe biden distracted showing me his shotgun, I would probably feel vulnerable... naked without the means of equalizing criminals, thugs, or govt overreach.  I would be mad, though!  That would be the last straw for obama/biden!  No more mr. nice guy from me..  oh, yeah... i haven't been that nice to them, anyway..    :Dontknow:

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Max Rockatansky (10-30-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> It's kind of funny.. i hear a lot of preppers & shtf watchers & '3%'ers' talk about guns a lot.  They plot & analyze, & try to second guess what they might need.  But for all the years i've had firearms, i never really thought of them like that.  They were a hobby for me.. i liked to shoot & polish my marksmanship.  Perhaps the practical side in me subconsciously thinks, 'this will be a good skill for when the shtf', but i don't think it consciously.  I just like to reload, shoot, tinker, tweak, mod, & fool around with firearms.  Financially, it's not a bad hobby.. i have worse ones.. computers, for example.  You get a new, cutting edge computer, & within a year or so it is obsolete.  Firearms can go up in value, & most have.
> 
> But i'm sure, that if a thief broke in & stole all my guns, or if obama came over & took them all while joe biden distracted showing me his shotgun, I would probably feel vulnerable... naked without the means of equalizing criminals, thugs, or govt overreach.  I would be mad, though!  That would be the last straw for obama/biden!  No more mr. nice guy from me..  oh, yeah... i haven't been that nice to them, anyway..


Like you, I see guns as more of a hobby, but with a purpose that could become very handy in certain situations.  I'm not worried about Obama, Hillary or the UN coming to take my guns.  If this country ever tries to pass more restrictive gun laws, then it will come in stages, not sending out the National Guard house-to-house.  We'd see in in plenty of time to start packing them away in cosmoline and burying them under a new sidewalk or a garden fountain.

Material things are nice, but in such a scenario, knowledge is more important.  Spending tens of thousands of dollars on weapons, armor and the like only to see your house burn down and escape only with the shirt on your back won't do a person much good if they don't know how to survive in the wild, improvise shelter, fire and forage for food.

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## Perianne

> ...won't do a person much good if they don't know how to survive in the wild, improvise shelter, fire and forage for food.


I have books on all that.  And I have read them, too.  I have a specialized book for eating things that Mother Nature gives us, growing right out of the ground.

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## Max Rockatansky

> I have books on all that.  And I have read them, too.  I have a specialized book for eating things that Mother Nature gives us, growing right out of the ground.


Do you practice it?  Go camping?  Get involved with the Girl Scouts or something and teach them woodland skills?

I go camping and hiking on occasion, but I've also had the benefit of several military survival courses: Basic, JEST and SERE.  Tie that with the fact I was a survivalist as a kid into my 20s and I feel pretty comfortable surviving in the wild.  How long would up for debate.  :Big Grin:

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## Perianne

> Do you practice it?  Go camping?  Get involved with the Girl Scouts or something and teach them woodland skills?
> 
> I go camping and hiking on occasion, but I've also had the benefit of several military survival courses: Basic, JEST and SERE.  Tie that with the fact I was a survivalist as a kid into my 20s and I feel pretty comfortable surviving in the wild.  How long would up for debate.


I look outside today.  It is 7 degrees (F).  If I had to leave my house and head for the hills, I could not survive today.  Too cold.  Water would not be a problem (snow), food would not be an immediate problem, but shelter would be.  I am going to spend part of this day preparing for such a thing.  Maybe some inexpensive, easily-carried tent?  Something to cut the wind and elements.  Also, my piggies would get awfully cold as I don't have any good, warm boots to wear in such weather.  I am woefully unprepared.   :Frown:

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## Archer

> I look outside today.  It is 7 degrees (F).  If I had to leave my house and head for the hills, I could not survive today.  Too cold.  Water would not be a problem (snow), food would not be an immediate problem, but shelter would be.  I am going to spend part of this day preparing for such a thing.  Maybe some inexpensive, easily-carried tent?  Something to cut the wind and elements.  Also, my piggies would get awfully cold as I don't have any good, warm boots to wear in such weather.  I am woefully unprepared.


Good hiking boots by redwing or wolverine should do it or you can go cheap and get the Brahma work boots.

Get black smooth so you can wax them to keep the leather from leaking and make sure they have thinsulate.

Good layered clothing will do more for you against the cold than a tent... Remember the tent can hamper mobility and though it will stop wind and rain it does noting against the cold. In the wild shelter is everywhere.

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Perianne (01-03-2014)

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## usfan

Unless we're refugees, fleeing from oppressive invaders, i don't see why we would leave our homes.  I'm a dainty little person, now, & would not want to live in the woods.  If i can stay home, i'll do that.  I have plenty of outdoor gear for hunting or cold weather, but i would not head for the mountains in the dead of winter.

I would rather stay & fight for my property & freedom, than run from any statist oppressor.  Depending on the extent of the oppressor, & the number of those opposing it, has more to say about any tactical movement.  But i don't think we should let them imply that our best bet is to head for the hills if the govt makes a move to limit our freedoms.  That only scatters us, weakens us, & divides us from communication & any tactical advantage.  ..plus, it would probably be a death sentence for most who tried.. living off the land is a lot harder than it is made out.

Now, if we're talking about a breakdown  of law & order, & anarchy in the cities, with food shortages, etc, then getting somewhere more remote would be a good idea.  But imo, it would be better to join with friends or family in a rural or small town environment, where the numbers of people would be limited.

----------


## The Sage of Main Street

> I have been reading about this stuff for a long time.  I am aware of the scary state of the USA.  I read from guys on here, like @TheTemporaryBG, about protecting one's self and family.  I worry about what if the SHTF.  I am prepared, food wise, but what if bad people try to take my stuff?  What if it comes down to survival and there are men coming down my road to maraud?  I have handguns and we know how to use them.  I have a 12 gauge that knocks my shoulder off.
> 
> I have read on survival sites about the best manstopper rifle for a woman.  Everyone has different opinions and they wind up arguing about stuff.  I have an old .22 rifle.  I have never shot any big guns, except for the shotgun, and it is too powerful for me.
> 
> I am little.  I weigh about 125 pounds.  
> 
> I never worried about any of the survival stuff until my husband died.  Right now, it's just me and my 25 year old daughter.
> 
> What type of manstopper rifle do I need?   Please only tell me the types that are available now, and the ammunition is available now.  Is a good .22 enough?  I don't know what to do.  I feel under-protected.


Buy whatever will make the most money for the Fright Wing whackos who preach these scary sermons and get a cut from the Survivalist/Gold Bug/Self-Protection cartel.

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## Archer

> Buy whatever will make the most money for the Right Wing whackos who preach these scary sermons and get a cut from the Survivalist/Gold Bug/Self-Protection cartel.


What does this have to do with the question? It is not a reply, it is nothing more than rant.

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## Max Rockatansky

> I look outside today.  It is 7 degrees (F).  If I had to leave my house and head for the hills, I could not survive today.  Too cold.  Water would not be a problem (snow), food would not be an immediate problem, but shelter would be.  I am going to spend part of this day preparing for such a thing.  Maybe some inexpensive, easily-carried tent?  Something to cut the wind and elements.  Also, my piggies would get awfully cold as I don't have any good, warm boots to wear in such weather.  I am woefully unprepared.


7F is pretty sporty.  Even worse if that temp isn't figuring in wind chill and humidity.

Have you read up on cold weather survival tips?  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/chp15.php

Survival doesn't mean "comfortable".  It often means simply living through an ordeal.  Having all of your parts intact is a bonus. 

This bout of cold weather is certain to result in a few deaths and several cases of severe frost bite.  That's with all the modern conveniences.   Imagine the scenario if we had a massive power outage.  Gasoline pumps work on electricity.  Houses without light and heat.  All those who are hoping/predicting that the US is going to collapse and that the Shit is going to hit the fan better also be hoping global warming is real.  Otherwise a lot of people will die the first winter.

----------


## Archer

> 7F is pretty sporty.  Even worse if that temp isn't figuring in wind chill and humidity.
> 
> Have you read up on cold weather survival tips?  http://www.wilderness-survival.net/chp15.php
> 
> Survival doesn't mean "comfortable".  It often means simply living through an ordeal.  Having all of your parts intact is a bonus. 
> 
> This bout of cold weather is certain to result in a few deaths and several cases of severe frost bite.  That's with all the modern conveniences.   Imagine the scenario if we had a massive power outage.  Gasoline pumps work on electricity.  Houses without light and heat.  All those who are hoping/predicting that the US is going to collapse and that the Shit is going to hit the fan better also be hoping global warming is real.  Otherwise a lot of people will die the first winter.


This is not cold weather it is frigid warmth! The thermometers have been affected by some solar event. It is warmer than ever!

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## Hansel

> There are a lot of good sites that have food that doesn't taste like MREs and last a long time.  I'd stock up on those.  My advice on guns is any gun that you feel you can handle is the one to have.
> 
> Go to a range in town and try a couple of them out.  Better to be a great shot with a .22 than a poor shot with a .45.


Good thinking, and shoot to kill.  As to storing canned food, the Vitamin C content in canned veggies can deteriorate over the months so one should rotate his stock to keep it fresh.  I suppose that dried foods do not have this problem though. There is a book by Rodale Press (I think) called "Stocking Up" that touchés on the point I have just raised.

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## Max Rockatansky

> This is not cold weather it is frigid warmth! The thermometers have been affected by some solar event. It is warmer than ever!


Weather forecast for my little part of North Texas for the next week is high 60s and Sunny. Woot!

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## Perianne

Can someone be really, really nice and tell me what kind of ammo I need for my 9mm?  I want it for home protection. I am on Cheaper Than Dirt.com.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/Produ...aspx?catid=736

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## Calypso Jones

just go to the store and buy 9 millimeter bullets sweetie.   Don't act like you don't know anything about bullets.. Just boldly go forth.  It will scare hell out of any guys around.

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Perianne (01-22-2014)

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## Calypso Jones

oh...a 380 MIGHT go in your gun.   They're called 9 millimeter shorts.    on second thought don't do that.

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## Perianne

> just go to the store and buy 9 millimeter bullets sweetie.   Don't act like you don't know anything about bullets.. Just boldly go forth.  It will scare hell out of any guys around.


But there are so many types.  They will laugh at me behind my back.  I want to order from that website as I am placing an order for other stuff.

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## Pooltablerepairman

> Can someone be really, really nice and tell me what kind of ammo I need for my 9mm?  I want it for home protection. I am on Cheaper Than Dirt.com.
> 
> http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/Produ...aspx?catid=736


My recommendation for a 9mm defensive load is Hornady 124 grain XTPs. You might also want to consider Hornady Critical Defense or Hornady Critical Duty rounds.

I looked at your link and CTD does carry the XTPs.

Just for informational purposes, XTP stands for Extreme Terminal Performance. It is a very good bullet.

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usfan (01-22-2014)

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## Perianne

> My recommendation for a 9mm defensive load is Hornady 124 grain XTPs. You might also want to consider Hornady Critical Defense or Hornady Critical Duty rounds.
> 
> I looked at your link and CTD does carry the XTPs.
> 
> Just for informational purposes, XTP stands for Extreme Terminal Performance. It is a very good bullet.


Thank you, @Pooltablerepairman.  You are sweet to help me.

Can I shoot those rounds?  I am a girl and my daughter is a girl.

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## Pooltablerepairman

> Thank you, @Pooltablerepairman.  You are sweet to help me.
> 
> Can I shoot those rounds?  I am a girl and my daughter is a girl.


Absolutely. Those are the rounds my wife carries in her Glock 19. They are very manageable to shoot and as far as defensive performance goes, the fact that I approve of her carrying them is the best recommendation I can give them.

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Perianne (01-22-2014)

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## Calypso Jones

hollow point or jacketed?    that's the only two.   SElf defense means Hollow points, Target practice means jacketed.  Jacketted are probably cheaper.  GET the hollow points.  that will stop anything.

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Perianne (01-22-2014)

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## Perianne

One more thing.  Are these good bullets for my Ruger 10/22?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-0520

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## Calypso Jones

is that a Ruger model 10 and 22 caliber?   Probably?  So yeah.

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## Pooltablerepairman

> One more thing.  Are these good bullets for my Ruger 10/22?
> 
> http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-0520


Yes, those are good rounds, but that price is way over the top.

Look HERE. This site is actually a search engine for ammunition. I am seeing 500 round boxes for less than half the price CTD is charging for 325 rounds. Anytime you need to buy ammo, particularly if you are buying a lot, go to THIS site and enter the type and caliber you want and it will tell you who actually has it in stock, what the price per box is and what the price per bullet is. It is a really good resource. Being a trainer, I use thousands of rounds a month of different calibers and have saved I don't know how many thousands of dollars in ammo costs using this site.

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Perianne (01-22-2014)

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## Perianne

> Yes, those are good rounds, but that price is way over the top.


I put the ammo in the cart, and then when I looked at the total, there was $32 to ship.  So, I did not order.  Thanks for the site.  I will look at it.

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## Perianne

Yep.  I've got another question.

A few months ago I bought a Remington 870 20 gauge shotgun.

If I wanted to hunt large game, like deer, would the 20 slug be good?  I don't see how that works.  The shotgun has no rifling, so the bullet wouldn't be accurate, would it?  Also, do you use a scope with a shotgun for hunting deer?

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## Archer

> Yep.  I've got another question.
> 
> A few months ago I bought a Remington 870 20 gauge shotgun.
> 
> If I wanted to hunt large game, like deer, would the 20 slug be good?  I don't see how that works.  The shotgun has no rifling, so the bullet wouldn't be accurate, would it?  Also, do you use a scope with a shotgun for hunting deer?


The slugs are rifled. Do you have a slug barrel?

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Perianne (02-06-2014)

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## Perianne

I don't know.  I didn't know it had to have a special barrel for slugs.

----------


## Trinnity

> Yep.  I've got another question.
> 
> A few months ago I bought a Remington 870 20 gauge shotgun.
> 
> If I wanted to hunt large game, like deer, would the 20 slug be good?  I don't see how that works.  The shotgun has no rifling, so the bullet wouldn't be accurate, would it?  Also, do you use a scope with a shotgun for hunting deer?


You can use a 20g slug. But have the right ammo - I'd say prolly copper jacketed 250 grain, but I wouldn't trust it past 75 yards. And I think a scope might help you since you're kinda a noob. And it certainly wouldn't be my first choice. I'd go 12g or rifle. But you can do that if you want, Peri. And you'd need a slug barrel.

Now I'm not 100% sure about this since I've never really considered deer hunting that way, so ask Archer to be sure. He knows a lot about guns.

/edit
Oh I see Archer weighed in.

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Perianne (02-06-2014)

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## usfan

You can shoot rifled slugs from a smooth bore shotgun.  If it has chokes, make sure the full choke isn't in, is all.  But i agree with Trin.. that would not be the best for large game.  Weren't you looking at a 270 or 243 rifle?  That would be much better, & have better range.  Even an old mosin would be a better firearm for bigger game than a 20g & slugs.

Something else to consider would be an sks.. it shoots the 7.62x39 ak-47 round, & has low recoil.  You'd have to modify the magazine to make it hunt legal.. most states have max 3 rounds mag + chamber.  There is one at classic firearms now for under $300 shipped.  The bullets are cheap & easy to find, it doesn't kick much, & has decent range.

Otherwise, your 357 pistol would be as effective & accurate as the 20g with slugs.. about the same range, too.  Your best 'upgrade' would be a high powered rifle.

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Perianne (02-06-2014)

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## Archer

I like my wheel gun! 

This is a 410 slug...




Now it is lighter and slower than my handgun and the bullet frags... Mine does not
Attachment 2306

----------


## Perianne

> You can shoot rifled slugs from a smooth bore shotgun.  If it has chokes, make sure the full choke isn't in, is all.  But i agree with Trin.. that would not be the best for large game.  *Weren't you looking at a 270 or 243 rifle?*  That would be much better, & have better range.  Even an old mosin would be a better firearm for bigger game than a 20g & slugs.
> 
> Something else to consider would be an sks.. it shoots the 7.62x39 ak-47 round, & has low recoil.  You'd have to modify the magazine to make it hunt legal.. most states have max 3 rounds mag + chamber.  There is one at classic firearms now for under $300 shipped.  The bullets are cheap & easy to find, it doesn't kick much, & has decent range.
> 
> Otherwise, your 357 pistol would be as effective & accurate as the 20g with slugs.. about the same range, too.  Your best 'upgrade' would be a high powered rifle.


I am tight and was looking to have all the bases covered with what I have.

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## usfan

> I like my wheel gun! 
> 
> This is a 410 slug...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now it is lighter and slower than my handgun and the bullet frags... Mine does not
> Attachment 2306


Keep in mind this was at 20 yds.. this would be much different at 100 yds.  Your 454, too, but not as much.  Peri's 357 would be more accurate at 100 yds than the 20ga slug.

from chuck hawks:



> Shotgun slug loads intended to be fired from smooth bore barrels manage to combine the worst properties of any hunting projectile: marginal accuracy, low velocity, low sectional density, low ballistic coefficient, rainbow trajectory, and heavy recoil. Nearly the worst of all possible worlds! If you can legally hunt with a rifle, you owe it to both yourself and your quarry to do so.
> http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm


slugs basically give you the same ballistics as black powder.  You get a big projectile, but poor accuracy & quickly diminishing ballistics.

Here's the ballistics of a 357 mag.  This is the ft.lbs at the muzzle, 50 yds, & 100 yds.  The first number is the projectile.. a 165gr jacketed hollow point.
165 JHPCL==    610 muzzle, 518- 50 yds, 450- 100yds.

There is a 3" drop in trajectory with this round at 100 yds.. compare that with 9-15" of drop with a slug.  It has more knockdown power, but is less accurate.  Accuracy is more important in hunting, imo.. ballistics is important.. you need to have enough to get the job done, but without accuracy, it is not as effective.  I would rather hunt deer with a 223 than a 20ga slug.

----------


## usfan

> I am tight and was looking to have all the bases covered with what I have.


well, if you have a 22, a shotgun, & a 357 pistol, you're in pretty good shape, except for any long range shooting.  The shotgun with slugs can work, at short ranges.  Some states don't allow hunting unless you have a 'slug barrel' that both trin & archer mentioned.    But the 357 would probably be ok there.  These are all good for up to ~100 yds.  So as long as your game is in that range, your bases are covered!

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Perianne (02-06-2014)

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## Archer

Those shots were into sandbags at about 10yds so I could test for fragmentation with my ammo. @100 it would have been pretty much the same but the jacket would have held a little better.

Those rounds I load are rated for griz kills at 300 yards.

I also load .357 and I like 180 gr for hunting :Smile:

----------


## Calypso Jones

They haven't talked about confiscating hunting bows yet.

----------


## Archer

> They haven't talked about confiscating hunting bows yet.


I got one of them as well :Smile:

----------


## Trinnity

> Even an old mosin would be a better firearm for bigger game than a 20g & slugs.


I'd disagree on that. A Mosin Nagant woulb be too loud, too long, and too heavy to suit Peri's taste. It's one gun I wouldn't recommend for her or for hunting (sorry).

----------


## Trinnity

> I am tight and was looking to have all the bases covered with what I have.


I know what you're doing - having the basics covered. You CAN deer hunt with that 20g with a scope and a slug. You're picking this stuff up quite well - I'm proud of you. 

<I knew you're smart>

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Perianne (02-06-2014)

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## usfan

> I'd disagree on that. A Mosin Nagant woulb be too loud, too long, and too heavy to suit Peri's taste. It's one gun I wouldn't recommend for her or for hunting (sorry).


I wasn't really recommending it.. just saying it would be better for long distance shooting than a 20ga w/slugs.  The recoil would be similar, & i'm not certain it would be much louder than a 20ga shotgun.  If i was looking for a distance firearm over 100 yds, & money was very tight, the mosin is tough to beat.  But i recommended a 270 or even an sks in peri's case, as the recoil would be softer, but you'd get better distance & accuracy than the 20ga.

The reason to get a shotgun is the multiple projectiles.. bird shot for birds, buck shot for bucks.. but you're after the spread.  For a single projectile, either a pistol or rifle is better.  If all you have is a shotgun, then sure, get a few slugs to have on hand.  But if you're going deer hunting, a centerfire rifle or big pistol would be a better choice, mostly for the distance & accuracy.

Nothing to be sorry about.. opinions are like me, & we all have them...  or something like that..   :Thinking:

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Perianne (02-17-2014)

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## Mgunner

> That is great!  But what I really want is something to reach waaaay out there and plunk someone.  I have this nightmare scenario when thugs are coming down my street, I can see them coming, and I want the ability (not desire) to defend my home before they even get close.
> 
> Am I thinking wrong?  Is the 20 gauge all I would need?  Wouldn't that require them to be close enough to shoot me with their handguns?  
> 
> I am confused.  I never thought I would have to think about this stuff.  I had a big, strong husband.


Get an M4... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine

heck if you can afford it get several... Light weight, low recoil, accurate once you have it zeroed at a good distance, 30 round magazines, you're all set.

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Perianne (02-17-2014)

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## Mgunner

> This ammo is good for a 20g shotgun because it's made for use in guns like my Taurus Defender
> (seen below in pic) which holds a .45 bullet and/or 410 (20g) shotshell.  
> (this revolver is 5-$700 from used to new)
> 
> See the black shell in the middle? That is balls and "diskettes". 
> 
>   You can use this  in your 20g shotgun


Love the Taurus... We have two of em... Nice!

----------


## Perianne



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## Devil505

I'm a retired fed & agree that a shotgun is the best home defense weapon.
Goto the range so you get to feel comfortable with it.

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## Archer

> I'm a retired fed & agree that a shotgun is the best home defense weapon.
> Goto the range so you get to feel comfortable with it.


Yes they are good but unwieldy. I think a heavy round in a medium caliber at about 800-1000 FPS is the best in the home.

Well I guess you could saw it off...

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## Devil505

> Well I guess you could saw it off...


But the barrel must be 18" or over & a minimum overall length over 26". 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

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## Archer

> But the barrel must be 18" or over & a minimum overall length over 26". 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act


And that is why a shotgun is not the best choice in the home in my opinion.

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## Toefoot

What do you suggest at 0300 and mostly asleep?




> And that is why a shotgun is not the best choice in the home in my opinion.

----------


## Archer

> What do you suggest at 0300 and mostly asleep?


Mostly asleep? I suggest waking the hell up! If you need a damn shotgun to hit the target because you are half asleep then you may not have a freaking clue what the hell you are shooting at.

At 20' it is point and freaking shoot! That is with anything. You can more easily point and shoot a handgun.

----------


## Toefoot

So...you predict your environment? Tactics support your claim...."Of waking the hell up"?




> Mostly asleep? I suggest waking the hell up! If you need a damn shotgun to hit the target because you are half asleep then you may not have a freaking clue what the hell you are shooting at.
> 
> At 20' it is point and freaking shoot! That is with anything. You can more easily point and shoot a handgun.

----------


## Archer

> So...you predict your environment? Tactics support your claim...."Of waking the hell up"?


I am on my feet and out the bedroom door in a couple of seconds. I can grab my .357 in process. If I had to clank around with a cumbersome shotgun I would be slowed down, make more noise and probably have a higher chance of getting shot if the intruder is armed.

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## Toefoot

At the doorway, very few enter as a individual in the dark. 2 or more will invite themselves to take a looksee. Some wait in a car.....Laser on a 357 at 0300 moves quicker than breathing of someone who is a little excited and surprised. *Make sure you aim in the dark*. I like to point.

Stop showing me your nutsack, get a scattergun that remove threats. Please tell (Explain) me your tactics of this 357....




> I am on my feet and out the bedroom door in a couple of seconds. I can grab my .357 in process. If I had to clank around with a cumbersome shotgun I would be slowed down.

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## Devil505

> And that is why a shotgun is not the best choice in the home in my opinion.


Fair point which is why constant practice with one is mandatory. (actually that's true with any firearm)

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## Sheldonna

I recommend the Judge.  It shoots 410 shotgun shells AND 45 long colts.  I have one and I feel like it will stop pretty much anyone.  I would also get a backup in case there's a crowd comin.  And there just might be if TSHTF.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...5F296EFBAD2A74

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## Toefoot

When it comes to survival, I reco 3 in your tool box. This will let you be effective in any given environment. Love the 410 bore.




> I recommend the Judge.  It shoots 410 shotgun shells AND 45 long colts.  I have one and I feel like it will stop pretty much anyone.  I would also get a backup in case there's a crowd comin.  And there just might be if TSHTF.
> 
> http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...5F296EFBAD2A74

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## Devil505

Here's what I want:

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## Mgunner

> Here's what I want:


Don't look now but that weapon has a 100 round drum. Just saying.

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## Devil505

> Don't look now but that weapon has a 100 round drum. Just saying.


Don't look now but it's nowhere near 100 shells & it's not sold to civilians.(20 or 32 round drums I believe)

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## Archer

Oh hell I want a 500 smith.

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## Mgunner

> Don't look now but it's nowhere near 100 shells & it's not sold to civilians.(20 or 32 round drums I believe)


I thought it was a scar... Thats what I get for not watching videos... 

It still has a 20 round drum... How to you square that with your opposition to high cap mags?

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## Devil505

> I thought it was a scar... Thats what I get for not watching videos... 
> 
> It still has a 20 round drum... How to you square that with your opposition to high cap mags?


It was designed for & is sold to the military.

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## Mgunner

> It was designed for & is sold to the military.


Ahhh... So if you could get one on the open market you would decline because of the high cap mags... So you don't REALLY want one... Got it.

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## Devil505

Thread title is "Protection"......not .."I want to continue old fights from another forum."

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Perianne (02-17-2014)

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## Perianne

> Thread title is "Protection"......not .."I want to continue old fights from another forum."


Thank you.  I kindly ask you gentlemen to refrain from fighting on my thread.

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Devil505 (02-17-2014)

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## Perianne

Someone told me one time that you can buy guns off the record, without a background check, if they are black powder.

1.  Is that true?
2.  Do they make black powder guns small enough for me?
3.  Are black powder guns powerful enough for good all around usage?
4.  Are black powder guns accurate enough that one could shoot a deer from a reasonable distance?

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## Archer

> Someone told me one time that you can buy guns off the record, without a background check, if they are black powder.
> 
> 1.  Is that true? Depends on your state laws. I have bought BP handguns in NC with no permit.
> 2.  Do they make black powder guns small enough for me? Define small enough. I mean they come in all sizes.
> 3.  Are black powder guns powerful enough for good all around usage? At short to mid range... Yes
> 4.  Are black powder guns accurate enough that one could shoot a deer from a reasonable distance? Yes


There you go sweetie.

And remember the civil war was fought with black powder. Effective at killing.

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Perianne (02-25-2014)

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## Perianne

> There you go sweetie.
> 
> And remember the civil war was fought with black powder. Effective at killing.


By small enough for me, I mean something that is not going to hurt my shoulder.  Something like a small deer rifle.

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## Archer

> By small enough for me, I mean something that is not going to hurt my shoulder.  Something like a small deer rifle.


Well Black powder is an explosive and smokeless is a propellant. 

Kick to me is a bit sharper but not as hard.

You pull the trigger, there is a very short delay and whap. Sadly it is really dirty!

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## Old Navy

Sounds like you have the hand-guns covered...so the 20 ga with #2 shot for in home protection is great....and 20ga slug for deer hunting is fine also....you can with a little practive kill a deer out to 70 - 80 yards.  Most deer are killed by hunters under 70 yards, inspite of all the bragging about 200 yard shots....you've been getting good advice about the 20ga...

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## teeceetx

When the time comes, in a few years, having a gun of any kind will be impossible.  Unregistered guns will be seen by neighbors or what have you, and your property will be turned upside down in looking for them.  You will be taken away and put in a jail or camp, never to be heard from again.  Such is the way.  And with technology the way it is today, FINDING that hidden weapon will be easy for them.  This will be far far worse than it was in the cold war Eastern Europe.

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Perianne (02-25-2014)

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## Sentinel

For the ladies, a .22 pistol will do just fine. 

A pistol can be stored more discretely than a rifle or shotgun, and it is more easily used in tight quarters (in your home) than a rifle.  At close range, a .22 will go through a human skull, or devastate whatever part of a body it hits.  So, don't worry about it not having enough stopping power.  And, if you're hoping to scare someone outside away, a shot fired from a .22 will work as well as any gun.

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Perianne (02-25-2014),usfan (02-26-2014)

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## Perianne

I went to the gun store today.  They must think I am trying to steal something.  They watch me like a hawk, so I don't stay very long.

I saw a box of Mosin Nugents.  I started to pick one up but it had vaseline all over it.  I left.

----------


## Hansel

> I have been reading about this stuff for a long time.  I am aware of the scary state of the USA.  I read from guys on here, like @TheTemporaryBG, about protecting one's self and family.  I worry about what if the SHTF.  I am prepared, food wise, but what if bad people try to take my stuff?  What if it comes down to survival and there are men coming down my road to maraud?  I have handguns and we know how to use them.  I have a 12 gauge that knocks my shoulder off.
> 
> I have read on survival sites about the best manstopper rifle for a woman.  Everyone has different opinions and they wind up arguing about stuff.  I have an old .22 rifle.  I have never shot any big guns, except for the shotgun, and it is too powerful for me.
> 
> I am little.  I weigh about 125 pounds.  
> 
> I never worried about any of the survival stuff until my husband died.  Right now, it's just me and my 25 year old daughter.
> 
> What type of manstopper rifle do I need?   Please only tell me the types that are available now, and the ammunition is available now.  Is a good .22 enough?  I don't know what to do.  I feel under-protected.


It seems that a standard .22 round might be a little light. You might consider hollow point long rifle .22s if your weapon will take long rifles. Hollow points splatter when they hit, doing more damage, where a solid slug may just go right thru the bastard.

A 30.06 is a killing machine but the recoil can be substantial. We used them in the NG. I wonder, would a padded recoil pad on the butt help one to absorb the blows? I have never had a recoil pad.

Another factor is the magazine capacity and the rate of fire.  A semi auto would give the best rate of fire I think, but be careful about wasting your magazine.  

There are some very nasty rounds available in certain calibres, and the old Talon round comes to mind. I think it has been superceded by a later version that does even more damage. 

Honey, if you gotta shoot it out then play for keeps because the sucker may not give you a second chance. A round that explodes or expands upon impact give a shot to the chest a better chance of stopping the predator.  If you have a chance then blow his damned brains out.  My ex sat down in a closet, put a .38 in her  mouth, and pulled the trigger. It blew the top of her head off and they did not open the casket for the funeral.  I really felt sorry for my kids as they were only teenagers at the time.

I am pretty rusty on the sizes of ammo but there are slightly larger rounds than a .22 that the military has used. Maybe one of the pros on this forum can input something.  Off hand I don't remember the M-16 having much of a kick and it used a round that was much smaller than the old cannons used. The M-16 replaced the earlier heavy wooden rifles that the armed forces used. I called them Mattel toys. Ha. They were very light weight and hard to hold on target in the wind.

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Perianne (02-27-2014)

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## Perianne

> My ex sat down in a closet, put a .38 in her  mouth, and pulled the trigger. It blew the top of her head off and they did not open the casket for the funeral.  I really felt sorry for my kids as they were only teenagers at the time.


I am so sorry about your ex.  Sad.

----------


## usfan

> I went to the gun store today.  They must think I am trying to steal something.  They watch me like a hawk, so I don't stay very long.
> 
> I saw a box of Mosin Nugents.  I started to pick one up but it had vaseline all over it.  I left.


That is cosmoline.. they used it to preserve the old weapons in storehouses.  It has to be cleaned off, & there are several methods to do it.  I like the old mosins, but if i were you, i'd get a 243 or something with a bit less kick & more modern.. so you can scope it easily.  You've got everything else covered, so a high powered hunting rifle is all that is left.  There are several good makers of this kind of rifle.  A 308 or 30-06 or even the mosin will kick quite a bit more, so a smaller round rifle will be better suited for your needs, right?  But that is only if you really want or need a longer range rifle.  You can get by nicely with the 357 & 22 & 20ga shotgun.  A high powered rifle just extends your range.

Good luck with whatever you decide, & let us know (and some pics!).    :Big Grin:

----------


## Perianne

> That is cosmoline.. they used it to preserve the old weapons in storehouses.  It has to be cleaned off, & there are several methods to do it.  I like the old mosins, but if i were you, i'd get a 243 or something with a bit less kick & more modern.. so you can scope it easily.  You've got everything else covered, so a high powered hunting rifle is all that is left.  There are several good makers of this kind of rifle.  A 308 or 30-06 or even the mosin will kick quite a bit more, so a smaller round rifle will be better suited for your needs, right?  But that is only if you really want or need a longer range rifle.  You can get by nicely with the 357 & 22 & 20ga shotgun.  A high powered rifle just extends your range.
> 
> Good luck with whatever you decide, & let us know (and some pics!).


But the old Mosins are cool looking.  I can tell by looking at them that they would hurt me.  Sometimes you just want something for the heck of it.

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## usfan

> But the old Mosins are cool looking.  I can tell by looking at them that they would hurt me.  Sometimes you just want something for the heck of it.


I know!  I've got 2!   :Big Grin: 

They would work for you, if you put on a good buttstock pad.  I have a limbsaver & a pachmayer... both slip on.  They work.  I could maybe shoot 3-4 times without one in the bigger calibers, but with i can shoot 20+ times or probably more.  Too bad you don't know someone nearby with a stack of rifles you could try out..  you could get your slip on pad, then shoot a few different guns to see what you like.

Or, just buy a mosin & some ammo.. you're not into it for that much, & you can shoot it a few times & see if you like it.  It's not a marriage, you can sell it.   :Smile: 

But do pick up a recoil pad.. it would even help with the big rounds of the 20ga.

----------


## Perianne

> But do pick up a recoil pad.. it would even help with the big rounds of the 20ga.


Oh, I did buy one for my 20 gauge.  The one time I shot it, I went through a box of shells they gave me, which were 3" magnum thingys, or something like that.  I had a bruise on my shoulder and it hurt for several days.  I bought a 
*Remington SuperCell Recoil Pads*
I wish my feller was into guns.  Instead, he is just into me. (not a bad thing)

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Max Rockatansky (03-26-2014)

----------


## old wood

> I have been reading about this stuff for a long time.  I am aware of the scary state of the USA.  I read from guys on here, like @TheTemporaryBG, about protecting one's self and family.  I worry about what if the SHTF.  I am prepared, food wise, but what if bad people try to take my stuff?  What if it comes down to survival and there are men coming down my road to maraud?  I have handguns and we know how to use them.  I have a 12 gauge that knocks my shoulder off.
> 
> If my  agenda is to steal your home canned soup... and you shoot at me..I don't CARE if it's a .22 or a 338 Lapua... it ain't worth it.    A shotgun... has a plus in that..it ain't expensive and it does not have to be aimed real well.   A "home Invasion..is apt to happen at night. You know the floor plan..the intruder does not.   You have a big + there and  with a shotgun... your odds of hitting a person in the dark are WAY better than with any hand gun.   As you know...that sucker is LOUD... fire as  pump it and if you MISSED..the bad guy is running away.  A shotgun... is often fairly cheap. Cheaper than most hand guns and WAY cheap relative to any assault rifle.
> 
> 125? a lot of women..or men that size can shoot a shotgun.    Try this... do a kneeling position.. rest the elbow (the one holding the stock..on the other knee. If indoors.. lean a shoulder ito a wall. You are more stable  in terms of AIM..and the recoil..also make a smaller target.   Standing up..may work when shooting skeet but has no advantages in self defense.  
> 
> I have read on survival sites about the best manstopper rifle for a woman.  Everyone has different opinions and they wind up arguing about stuff.  I have an old .22 rifle.  I have never shot any big guns, except for the shotgun, and it is too powerful for me.
> 
> I am little.  I weigh about 125 pounds.  
> ...


oops.. hope you can find my post inside that.

----------


## old wood

> Oh, I did buy one for my 20 gauge.  The one time I shot it, I went through a box of shells they gave me, which were 3" magnum thingys, or something like that.  I had a bruise on my shoulder and it hurt for several days.  I bought a 
> *Remington SuperCell Recoil Pads*


The Magnums are a longer shell..more power..and kick.    Not needed at the range relevant to self defense.. maybe good hunting birds.  

In a "self defense" case... unless the CRIPS, Mafia, Hells Angels think you are enemy #1.. One shot is apt to be plenty.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> _If my agenda is to steal your home canned soup... and you shoot at me..I don't CARE if it's a .22 or a 338 Lapua... it ain't worth it. A shotgun... has a plus in that..it ain't expensive and it does not have to be aimed real well. A "home Invasion..is apt to happen at night. You know the floor plan..the intruder does not. You have a big + there and with a shotgun... your odds of hitting a person in the dark are WAY better than with any hand gun. As you know...that sucker is LOUD... fire as pump it and if you MISSED..the bad guy is running away. A shotgun... is often fairly cheap. Cheaper than most hand guns and WAY cheap relative to any assault rifle._
> 
> _125? a lot of women..or men that size can shoot a shotgun. Try this... do a kneeling position.. rest the elbow (the one holding the stock..on the other knee. If indoors.. lean a shoulder ito a wall. You are more stable in terms of AIM..and the recoil..also make a smaller target. Standing up..may work when shooting skeet but has no advantages in self defense._ 
> 
> 
> oops.. hope you can find my post inside that.


Is that it?

As for smaller shooters shooting bigger guns.  As long as the first round connects, it really doesn't matter.  It's the reloading and reaiming that come into play if a gun is too big for the shooter.

Your point is agreeable; the proper positioning will help.

----------


## 007

> That is great!  But what I really want is something to reach waaaay out there and plunk someone.  I have this nightmare scenario when thugs are coming down my street, I can see them coming, and I want the ability (not desire) to defend my home before they even get close.
> 
> Am I thinking wrong?  Is the 20 gauge all I would need?  Wouldn't that require them to be close enough to shoot me with their handguns?  
> 
> I am confused.  I never thought I would have to think about this stuff.  I had a big, strong husband.


Find a quality rifle, the AR15 base is popular with many, I find it's accuracy leaves much to be desired.
My preference would be the SMLE 1/4 in .303.
Bolt action, 10 round mag, at a steady rate of fire you could put down 20 well aimed rounds per min.
sounds slow but each round would hit the target, one shot one kill.

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Perianne (03-26-2014)

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## Gemini

> Find a quality rifle, the AR15 base is popular with many, I find it's accuracy leaves much to be desired.
> My preference would be the SMLE 1/4 in .303.
> Bolt action, 10 round mag, at a steady rate of fire you could put down 20 well aimed rounds per min.
> sounds slow but each round would hit the target, one shot one kill.


If you are using your AR-15 properly, you get one kill per shot.

Just saying...

----------


## Karl

> If you are using your AR-15 properly, you get one kill per shot.
> 
> Just saying...









Look whos back Its @Gemini

Long time no see

----------


## Karl

Welcome back,Your dreams were your ticket out.
Welcome back,
To that same old place that you laughed about.
Well the names have all changed since you hung around,
But those dreams have remained and they're turned around.
Who'd have thought they'd lead ya (Who'd have thought they'd lead ya)
Here's where we need ya (Here is where we need ya)
Yeah we tease him a lot cause we've got him on the spot, welcome back,
Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> If you are using your AR-15 properly, you get one kill per shot.
> 
> Just saying...


A few "it depends" are tossed in there.  The 5.56MM is light and easily deflected by things like leaves, sheet metal and, to my consternation, wind.   

When I was in the Marine Corps I initially qualified "Expert" with the M-14 7.62mm.  We shot on 200, 300 and 500 yard ranges.  Two years later they switched to the M-16.  No problem on the 200 and 300 yard ranges, but at 500 yards it was 50/50 whether or not I'd hit black on the man-sized target.  I still qualified as Expert, but it was just barely so.

The Enfield .303 is similar in being a true battle rifle like the M-14, not an assault rifle like the M-16.   http://www.koreanwaronline.com/arms/leenfld.htm

I have a Mosin Nagant in 7.62X54R and recently bought a Mauser K98 copy, the Yugoslavian M-48, in 8x57mm.  Both are bolt action battle rifles with effective ranges more than 500 yards with iron sights (more with a scope).

The bottom line for picking a weapon is how it is intended to be used.  For home defense, a shotgun is much better than a rifle or pistol.  

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-mosin-nagant/


http://mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/gyougoen.html

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Toefoot (03-30-2014)

----------


## Toefoot

I really enjoy the Mosin Nagant M38, T53 and 91/59 carbine models. 



[

QUOTE=Max Rockatansky;263745]A few "it depends" are tossed in there.  The 5.56MM is light and easily deflected by things like leaves, sheet metal and, to my consternation, wind.   

When I was in the Marine Corps I initially qualified "Expert" with the M-14 7.62mm.  We shot on 200, 300 and 500 yard ranges.  Two years later they switched to the M-16.  No problem on the 200 and 300 yard ranges, but at 500 yards it was 50/50 whether or not I'd hit black on the man-sized target.  I still qualified as Expert, but it was just barely so.

The Enfield .303 is similar in being a true battle rifle like the M-14, not an assault rifle like the M-16.   http://www.koreanwaronline.com/arms/leenfld.htm

I have a Mosin Nagant in 7.62X54R and recently bought a Mauser K98 copy, the Yugoslavian M-48, in 8x57mm.  Both are bolt action battle rifles with effective ranges more than 500 yards with iron sights (more with a scope).

The bottom line for picking a weapon is how it is intended to be used.  For home defense, a shotgun is much better than a rifle or pistol.  

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-mosin-nagant/


http://mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/gyougoen.html
[/QUOTE]

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I really enjoy the Mosin Nagant M38, T53 and 91/59 carbine models.


Because they are relatively inexpensive, I was debating on whether to pick up a second Mosin but in carbine length.  In the end, I decided on the Mauser for variety.   I intend on hanging both in my den by constructing a similar shell casing and cedar picket fence plank like the one I made for my Ka-Bar and Mameluke:

----------

Toefoot (03-30-2014)

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## Toefoot

Have you taken the K98 out yet? I wanted one but decided to be redundant with the Mosin Nagants and spam cans. 





> Because they are relatively inexpensive, I was debating on whether to pick up a second Mosin but in carbine length.  In the end, I decided on the Mauser for variety.   I intend on hanging both in my den by constructing a similar shell casing and cedar picket fence plank like the one I made for my Ka-Bar and Mameluke:

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## Max Rockatansky

> Have you taken the K98 out yet? I wanted one but decided to be redundant with the Mosin Nagants and spam cans.


Not yet.  I ordered a case of ammo from Cheaper than Dirt and it should arrive this week.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-858
8mm Mauser (8x57mm), Romanian, 150 Grain Steel Core Full Metal Jacket Bullet, 680 Round Crate, Two 340 Round Tins.

1970's Surplus 8mm Mauser from Romania packed in a 680 round wooden crate. Ammo is on 5 round stripper clips in packages of 10 rounds. Very nice, clean ammo. Lacquer coated steel case. Berdan Primed, Corrosive. Please clean your weapon after shooting this ammunition in a well ventilated area.

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Toefoot (03-30-2014)

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## Toefoot

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...63808443,d.aWM





> Not yet.  I ordered a case of ammo from Cheaper than Dirt and it should arrive this week.
> 
> http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AMM-858
> 8mm Mauser (8x57mm), Romanian, 150 Grain Steel Core Full Metal Jacket Bullet, 680 Round Crate, Two 340 Round Tins.
> 
> 1970's Surplus 8mm Mauser from Romania packed in a 680 round wooden crate. Ammo is on 5 round stripper clips in packages of 10 rounds. Very nice, clean ammo. Lacquer coated steel case. Berdan Primed, Corrosive. Please clean your weapon after shooting this ammunition in a well ventilated area.

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Max Rockatansky (04-22-2014)

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## Max Rockatansky

> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...63808443,d.aWM


Thanks for the link.   It got me looking for others.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/forgotten_8x57.htm



> So, what's not to like? The 8x57 is effective, versatile, and economical to shoot. By simply buying one box or another of inexpensive cartridges you have different loads with which to hunt anything from deer to moose. I think that you may be impressed if you give this oldie but goody a try, particularly if you want something a little different to tote into the woods. Just imagine the look on your buddies' faces when you tell them, "Why, it's an 8MM Mauser."

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## old wood

> That is great!  But what I really want is something to reach waaaay out there and plunk someone.  I have this nightmare scenario when thugs are coming down my street, I can see them coming, and I want the ability (not desire) to defend my home before they even get close.
> 
> Am I thinking wrong?  Is the 20 gauge all I would need?  Wouldn't that require them to be close enough to shoot me with their handguns?  
> 
> I am confused.  I never thought I would have to think about this stuff.  I had a big, strong husband.


If you think about it... in a crisis most folks will prefer their "comfort zone" ..the area they live around. 
The Maurauding Bands out in the boonies... is not THAT likely.   I'd guess odds are if 4 bad guys were  randomly going down country roads..they ain't on foot.   A solid deer rifle with a scope...any of various calibers and makes...can hit at 200-800 meters if you can aim well... but at 1/4 mile...do you know if you are shooting good guys or bad guys?

SHTF?   I see people rant about...WHATEVER... and there's unlikely scenarios that...IF they happen...we'd be screwed even if we were set up to last awhile.  Odds are slim that "civilization" just ceases and everyone goes full "Mad Max".   Probably those at most risk are in cities where there's a LOT of people who  live day to day.  Those folks won't KNOW the rural outskirts.  

Paranoid nutcases... it seems... find a cabin 50 miles from nowhere then think they need as many guns as they have fingers and home canned soup to last a year.   Their PROBLEM is..will be that they are obsessive paranoid nuts.

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## Max Rockatansky

Agreed on the unlikelihood of a SHTF scenario.  However, if it did, it would nice to have a few tools just in case.

Nothing fancy for me.  Certainly not something I've going to put all of my retirement money into, but something both practical, usable and, if necessary, can be used for other purposes.  In this case, I'm looking for good brush guns for hogs.  Tough, cheap and accurate with a big enough bore to take down anything I'm shooting at.

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## gainso

the shotgun, in a riot configuration like that, is ineffective beyond about 30 yds, the spread of the shot pellets is too scattered. shotgun "deer-slugs" are very expensive, the bead sights, lack of practice with them, and typical bad trigger pull of shotguns means that they don't really offer much  increased range over buckshot, not at all.  Your mental scenario is unrealistic, tho. One shot by you, they scatter, and keep coming, but this time, dodging and using cover, waiting until dark, and burn you out. A used .22 automatic rifle, say a marlin glenfield or ruger 1022, for $100 or thereabouts, will do all that's feasible for you, I'm afraid. the real fighting rifles, and adequate ability to make them worth owning, will set you back several thousand $ and a lot of hours of training, long trips to a range, etc.  Once people start dodging, using cover/darkness and shooting back, everyone, and I mean everyone, starts doing lots of missing, even at a "mere" 50 yds, with any rifle or any caliber, or any sighting system.  so the "long range" thing is mostly a fantasy, especially if you don't have hundreds of hours per year of access to a long range training facility,a nd many thousands of $ per year to spend at such trainiing, ammo, etc.

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## gainso

Know who Jim Carmichael is? Shooting editor of Outdoor life for decades, longtime big game hunter on several continents, holder of many rifle shooting records, author of COMPLETE BOOK OF THE RIFLE.  He had a deer run after TWO hits to the shoulders, crossing the chest, quartering. he had a wart hog get up and run after he shot it from the front, at 70 yds or so, with a 458 softpoint. Jeff cooper had a zebra run off after taking 2  .458's. :-) So, no, you won't find anything that "drops" hogs, with chest hits, with any reliability.  they won't go far, tho, after a good chest hit with a 223 and Nosler, deep penetrating Partition 60 gr sp's.  There are .22lr conversion units, luminous sights, drop in trigger jobs, etc, that make the 223 AR15 THE gun for survivalists.

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## Max Rockatansky

Your fascination with .22s is interesting.  

While I completely agree it has some uses, it's not the ultimate weapon.  None are.

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Toefoot (04-22-2014)

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## gainso

not one person in 1000 is properly prepped (or ever WILL be) so it's your NEIGHBORS who will be the threat, mostly. They won't have far to go.  No, you aint hitting anything in the way of a man in a moving car, with a bolt action at anything LIKE  200 yds, unless it's straight at you or straight away, cause you can't gauge the required lead, cause you cant tell how fast the car is going. by the time you cycle the bolt again, that speed will have CHANGED, count on it;. also, 308 or not, passing thru window glass DOES oftne alter the direction of the bullet, causing misses. Also, light is refracted by glass, just like it is by water, and the angle of approach changes where the target really IS, as vs where it LOOKS like it is. different angles change the required lead, and you aint got time to be considering the effects of wind, or mirage, or other people aiming at YOU while you try to hit the driver. other hits on the car mean nothing, basically. Do NOT limit yourself to a bolt action, no matter what the range. range CHANGES, real fast. that car, moving at a mere 30 mph, 1/4 mile away, coming kind at you? it can be all OVER you in 10 seconds.  Better have a belt fed, with TRACERS, not some silly bolt action.

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## gainso

repeat hits with a bolt action (shouldered, using the firing hand to cycle the bolt) take at least  1 second each, and more like  1.5 seconds, realistically. check THIS out. :-)  

   223 is not ".22" in the connotation that you try to utilize.  223 sp's are right up there with .44 mag revolvers, effect wise, cause they've go the same sort of energy, or more, and they don't waste  1/3rd of it on overpenetration of man sized targets.  .22 conversion unit is handy for lots of things, wherein the 223 or  308 are a waste of resources for those many things.

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## Archer

> Your fascination with .22s is interesting.  
> 
> While I completely agree it has some uses, it's not the ultimate weapon.  None are.


the ultimate weapon is whatever it takes to get the job done. I am a wheel gun man but I no qualms with using the AK or 270.

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## gainso

nope,. the only WEAPON is your mind, everything else is just some sort of extension of your will.

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## teeceetx

I'm gonna get myself a nice Glock 21 and an Colt AR-15 when I get to Texas.  The little lady will have to pick one for herself.  But she does have experience with an AK-47 back in her youth..lol.  I imagine my ammo bills will put me in the poorhouse though.

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## Max Rockatansky

> I'm gonna get myself a nice Glock 21 and an Colt AR-15 when I get to Texas.  The little lady will have to pick one for herself.  But she does have experience with an AK-47 back in her youth..lol.  I imagine my ammo bills will put me in the poorhouse though.


For .223 ammo, perhaps.  7.62X39 is cheaper for now.  Try Googling bulk ammo and buy it "loose" and by the case.  I've used both cheaperthandirt.com and MidwayUSA.com and have been happy with both.

While Colt's are nice, spending $2000 on a rifle is quite a lot.  You can get a nice SKS for $400-$600.  I'd recommend a stock one, not the commando-wannabe ones.  The bad news is it isn't made for a scope due to the way the receiver cover is put on.  Since both the .223/5.56mm and 7.62X39 are mid-range rounds anyway, you really don't need a scope.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search/Ca...SKS-Rifles.htm

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