# Stuff and Things > HISTORY, veterans & science >  Hospitals Using COVID-19 To Stand Down When Patients Have Do Not Resuscitate

## Molly Pitcher

COVID-19, the coronavirus that keeps on giving.  Friends, this is about as serious as it gets so Ill get straight to the point.  Hospitals around the united States are considering enacting a universal DO NOT RESUSCITATE order on COVID-19 patients whose heart or breathing stops against the wishes of the family and/or patient due to a shortage of personal protective equipment.  Basically, these hospitals are implementing euthanasia without consent or through coercive techniques in order to deny treatment and emergency measures because of a shortage of gloves, gowns, masks, head coverings, etc.


_The Washington Post_ has the story.


_Hospitals on the front lines of the pandemic are engaged in a heated private debate over a calculation few have encountered in their lifetimes  how to weigh the save at all costs approach to resuscitating a dying patient against the real danger of exposing doctors and nurses to the contagion of coronavirus.

_
_The conversations are driven by the realization that the risk to staff amid dwindling stores of protective equipment  such as masks, gowns and gloves  may be too great to justify the conventional response when a patient codes, and their heart or breathing stops.

_
_Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago has been discussing a do-not-resuscitate policy for infected patients, regardless of the wishes of the patient or their family members  a wrenching decision to prioritize the lives of the many over the one.

_

Let me say this;  part of the job of being a nurse or doctor is knowing that you will be exposed to some infectious pathogens.  Regardless of the risk, nurses and doctors cannot stop doing their jobs because of fear of being infected.  And, when working in a hospital that has various infectious pathogens from patients, an immunity is built against those pathogens to some extent.  There are some pathogens that one cannot build an immunity.  But, regardless, medical professionals do their duty  at least they did until coronavirus hit the scene.


Continuing, _The Washington Post_ reported:


_Richard Wunderink, one of Northwesterns intensive-care medical directors, said hospital administrators would have to ask Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker for help in clarifying state law and whether it permits the policy shift.

_
_Its a major concern for everyone, he said. This is something about which we have had lots of communication with families, and I think they are very aware of the grave circumstances.

_

_Officials at George Washington University Hospital in the District say they have had similar conversations, but for now will continue to resuscitate covid-19 patients using modified procedures, such as putting plastic sheeting over the patient to create a barrier. The University of Washington Medical Center in Seattle, one of the countrys major hot spots for infections, is dealing with the problem by severely limiting the number of responders to a contagious patient in cardiac or respiratory arrest.

_
In essence, this is wartime medical triage  the worst go last because the patient would use up too many resources that could be used to save those better off.  But, we are not at war.  Moreover, this is also a tenet of socialized medicine  rationing of care to the most critical to care for those who are less critical.  Its a method of kulling the population through ridding society of what some determine worthless.  Its a deplorable and disgusting practice.


Who would be affected by this policy should hospitals being implementing it all over the country?  It would be the elderly, those with immune-suppression, individuals with underlying auto-immune disorders, those with lung and heart conditions, and the very young whose immune system is still developing.  If you or one of your family members fall into this category, hospitals, without permission, are declaring you unworthy to live because of a lack of equipment.


This is wading into dangerous territory because of Obamacare regulations that are still in place and the push for euthanasia to be adopted by all States in the union.  Moreover, the push toward socialized medicine by the powers that be will see the above categories of individuals sacrificed on the notion of the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the one or the few.  There goes the right to life given by God.


While many will say these are hard choices that have to be made because these are difficult times, it will change once the shoe is on their foot and doctors are asking them to sacrifice themselves or their family member for the greater good.  The notion of slow code or less than rapid response with heroic measures and diminished care  is already in play when a patient has a Do Not Resuscitate order in their medical record.  Ive seen it in operation.


This scenario is a euthanasia supporting groups sexual dream.  Advocates for euthanasia/physician-assisted suicide, aka murder by physician are using COVID-19 to push their agenda of death on the premise of never let a good crisis go to waste.  With hospitals and health care facilities supposedly experiencing shortages of PPE, these advocates have achieved an unintentional ally for promotion of euthanasia based on fear.


And it gets even better as _The Washington Post_ indicated.


_Several large hospital systems  Atrium Health in the Carolinas, Geisinger in Pennsylvania and regional Kaiser Permanente networks  are looking at guidelines that would allow doctors to override the wishes of the coronavirus patient or family members on a case-by-case basis due to the risk to doctors and nurses, or a shortage of protective equipment, say ethicists and doctors involved in those conversations. But they would stop short of imposing a do-not-resuscitate order on every coronavirus patient. The companies declined to comment__._ [Emphasis Mine.]


_Lewis Kaplan, president of the Society of Critical Care Medicine and a University of Pennsylvania surgeon, described how colleagues at different institutions are sharing draft policies to address their changed reality.

_
_We are now on crisis footing, he said. What you take as first-come, first-served, no-holds-barred, everything-that-is-available-should-be-applied medicine is not where we are. We are now facing some difficult choices in how we apply medical resources  including staff._ [Emphasis Mine.]



Does this make it clear where medical care is going during this crisis that will be the playbook for everything going forward?  If not, you are beyond hope and no one can help you to understand.


_The new protocols are part of a larger rationing of lifesaving procedures and equipment  including ventilators  that is quickly becoming a reality here as in other parts of the world battling the virus. The concerns are not just about health-care workers getting sick but also about them potentially carrying the virus to other patients in the hospital.

_

_Alta Charo, a University of Wisconsin-Madison bioethicist, said that while the idea of withholding treatments may be unsettling, especially in a country as wealthy as ours, it is pragmatic. It doesnt help anybody if our doctors and nurses are felled by this virus and not able to care for us, she said. The code process is one that puts them at an enhanced risk._
_Wunderink said all of the most critically ill patients in the 12 days since they had their first coronavirus case have experienced steady declines rather than a sudden crash. That allowed medical staff to talk with families about the risk to workers and how having to put on protective gear delays a response and decreases the chance of saving someones life_.


Its amazing that nurses and doctors code other infectious patients, having to gown, glove and mask up, but COVID-19 patients are different.  It doesnt take that long to don PPE items to participate in a code.  Ive seen medical professionals donning PPE on the way to the room.  Coding a tuberculosis patient puts medical professionals at risk but they do it.  So, why the change in policy now?  And its interesting that no official from some hospital organizations will comment.


The code process is one that puts them at an enhanced risk.  That is true, but so does caring for patients who have highly contagious diseases.  Putting an IV into a patient that is HIV positive or has AIDS puts nurses and doctors at enhanced risk.  Should they be denied treatments because of the risk?  Did professors not explain in school that nurses and doctors care for patients that put them at enhanced risk of contracting an infectious disease?  If those in the profession have gotten that weak and scared, they need to find another profession.


Please be sure and read the rest.  It doesnt get any better.  Friends, if you dont stand up now, be prepared to have these policies to remain in effect once this crisis passes.  And, when it is recommended for one of your family members, dont complain if you didnt stand up against this atrocity.  But, make sure you let your family member know you are willing to let them die based on a shortage of supplies and hospital staff fear and the better good of society.  They deserve the truth.


https://sonsoflibertymedia.com/hospi...t-resuscitate/

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JMWinPR (03-28-2020)

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## Trinnity

> Hospitals around the united States are *considering* *enacting a universal DO NOT RESUSCITATE order on COVID-19 patients whose heart or breathing stops against the wishes of the family* and/or patient due to a shortage of personal protective equipment.   
> 
> sonsoflibertymedia.com


_Dr. Birx addressed this at the presser today._ *This is not going to happen.* I can't even imagine the lawsuits. I wouldn't be surprised if this was reporting on a rumor started by a Dem operative or one of the lefty press organizations.

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2cent (03-28-2020),Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020),tiny1 (03-28-2020)

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## Big Dummy

So hospitals are full of low moral abortion advocates. Can’t even have a hospital that wants to save lives. And people wonder why I rather die than go to a hospital.


basically hospitals are out for money not care giving. Like cops are out for money making tickets, not protecting or serving.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## Calypso Jones

Vile and evil if this is even contemplated.      Well..i'll certainly think twice about going to the hospital if i even think i may have 'it'.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## Trinnity

It's not going to happen. Period.

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## kazenatsu

> *This is not going to happen.* I can't even imagine the lawsuits.


They would most likely be dead before a judge could issue an injunction.

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## Abbey

They can't do that.  They can't just  decide to  issue a, "do not resuscitate " order without  express consent  from  either the  patient or,  the patient's  family,  if the patient  cant. (Family  member  probably  has to have  a power of  attorney.).....or, be next of kin....husband/wife etc..

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## kazenatsu

> I wouldn't be surprised if this was reporting on a rumor started by a Dem operative or one of the lefty press organizations.





> It's not going to happen. Period.


Well, I can't say if it's a rumor, but I can't see why anyone should be the least bit surprised if this was happening. Assuming this situation were true, hospitals have to pick and choose which lives to save, so they are going to opt for the way that is likely to save the most lives, even if that means letting some people die. 

I don't think any hospitals are running shortages of ventilators just yet. But there are reports of hospitals running short of other hygienic supplies (particularly goves and masks, because they are changing gloves so frequently, to avoid any possibility of spreading contamination).

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## RedLily b6

These media outlets need to be punished for spreading fake news to create chaos.  Ship them all off to China.

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2cent (03-28-2020),Hillofbeans (03-28-2020),Kodiak (03-28-2020),Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## kazenatsu

> They can't do that.  They can't just  decide to  issue a, "do not resuscitate " order without  express consent  from  either the  patient or,  the patient's  family,  if the patient  cant.


They can if that equipment and supplies are deemed essential to save someone else's life.

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## kazenatsu

I know some of you are claiming this is all rumor, but let me just say that, whether or not it is true, this scenario is very plausible. 
(For those of you who think it must only be a rumor because you think that could never happen, you're wrong)

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020),Quark (03-27-2020)

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## kazenatsu

> Let me say this;  part of the job of being a nurse or doctor is knowing that you will be exposed to some infectious pathogens.  Regardless of the risk, nurses and doctors cannot stop doing their jobs because of fear of being infected.


If the hospital staff get infected, they could spread it to many other patients. (This could happen before they even realize they are sick) Hospital patients in bad health condition who may be more susceptible to the disease, and could die, or in some cases even suffer permanent disability due to organ damage.

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Quark (03-27-2020)

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## Quark

This is how I look at it.

If all the medical teams get COVID-19 even if they don't all die there will not be anybody to take care of us anyway so what difference does it make.

My wife and I do have "Do not resuscitate" orders in our living wills plus our doctor order form. I'd rather go than have medical personnel go especially younger ones who have much more to contribute than I do. We all know I'm not a generous person.

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## Quark

> I know some of you are claiming this is all rumor, but let me just say that, whether or not it is true, this scenario is very plausible. 
> (For those of you who think it must only be a rumor because you think that could never happen, you're wrong)


Yup. Who would have thought we would have this stupid lock down nationwide. But we do.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## kazenatsu

Trinnity is angelic and well-meaning, but she is blissfully naive about how things work in the real world, especially in Blue states.

Any judge in a Blue area would have no problem upholding a hospital policy like this, if the hospital told them it was essential to save lives and prevent hospital workers from getting infected. 

Remember, Blue ideologues think in terms of utilitarian ethics, rather than individual deontological morality.

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Quark (03-28-2020)

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## kazenatsu

> Vile and evil if this is even contemplated.      Well..i'll certainly think twice about going to the hospital if i even think i may have 'it'.


The world operates on a very different morality than that you are familiar with.

While your comments are to me expressing profound ignorance, they are also indicative of the high moral caliber of your person.
In other words, you make the presumption that no reasonable normal person could think that way, because you cannot fathom how anyone _could_ think that way. It goes against everything you believe about right and wrong.

Many officials in public office would have no problem tossing a few people under the bus if they felt it was for the greater good, of the public in an emergency.
That's exactly how the Communist Chinese authorities act.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020),Quark (03-28-2020)

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## JMWinPR

> _Dr. Birx addressed this at the presser today._ *This is not going to happen.* I can't even imagine the lawsuits. I wouldn't be surprised if this was reporting on a rumor started by a Dem operative or one of the lefty press organizations.


I think not. I just lost someone close. I'm certain they killed her.

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## Molly Pitcher

> I think not. I just lost someone close. I'm certain they killed her.


Sorry to hear of your loss.

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JMWinPR (03-28-2020)

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## Molly Pitcher

> These media outlets need to be punished for spreading fake news to create chaos.  Ship them all off to China.


BUT....do we actually KNOW this is fake news?

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## Molly Pitcher

> They can't do that.  They can't just  decide to  issue a, "do not resuscitate " order without  express consent  from  either the  patient or,  the patient's  family,  if the patient  cant. (Family  member  probably  has to have  a power of  attorney.).....or, be next of kin....husband/wife etc..



Up to the patient or family......that's how it SHOULD be, but....

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Abbey (03-28-2020),Daily Bread (03-28-2020)

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## tiny1

> The world operates on a very different morality than that you are familiar with.
> 
> While your comments are to me expressing profound ignorance, they are also indicative of the high moral caliber of your person.
> In other words, you make the presumption that no reasonable normal person could think that way, because you cannot fathom how anyone _could_ think that way. It goes against everything you believe about right and wrong.
> 
> Many officials in public office would have no problem tossing a few people under the bus if they felt it was for the greater good, of the public in an emergency.
> That's exactly how the Communist Chinese authorities act.


Generalized Bullshit.
My Elderly Mother has a Resuscitate Once order.  
She is also a Jehovah's Witness, and will not accept blood transfusions.  
So, I have been round and round with Doctors about these issues.
If my mother was to stop breathing, they have to resuscitate her once.  No judge can intervene until long after the fact.  Resuscitation not covered under the Living Will becomes the discretion of the attending Physician.  If they refused to resuscitate her, without a court order or my permission, they would be paying my posterity for the rest of their entire lives.  No Physician is gonna risk malpractice FOR WHICH THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, in the heat of the moment.  Administrators?  Maybe.  If they betray the Oath, their Medical career would be gone.  And, If you COULD find a judge to support such  an obvious wrongful death, no Appellate Court would do so.
And, before you try, I am so Old, I have an Autographed Copy of the Bible.  I am not naïve.  Neither is Trinnity or Calypso.  I'd trust them, before you.

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2cent (03-28-2020)

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## Molly Pitcher

> Generalized Bullshit.
> My Elderly Mother has a Resuscitate Once order.  
> She is also a Jehovah's Witness, and will not accept blood transfusions.  
> So, I have been round and round with Doctors about these issues.
> If my mother was to stop breathing, they have to resuscitate her once.  No judge can intervene until long after the fact.  Resuscitation not covered under the Living Will becomes the discretion of the attending Physician.  If they refused to resuscitate her, without a court order or my permission, they would be paying my posterity for the rest of their entire lives.  No Physician is gonna risk malpractice FOR WHICH THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, in the heat of the moment.  Administrators?  Maybe.  If they betray the Oath, their Medical career would be gone.  And, If you COULD find a judge to support such  an obvious wrongful death, no Appellate Court would do so.
> And, before you try, I am so Old, I have an Autographed Copy of the Bible.  I am not naïve.  Neither is Trinnity or Calypso.  I'd trust them, before you.


Betray their oath?  Doctors who perform abortions (aside from those necessary to save the mother) violate their oath of _FIRST, DO NO HARM_ on a daily basis...   Doctors perform all kinds of UNnecessary cosmetic surgeries that are dangerous, rather than leave the narcissist patient as they are.

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Abbey (03-28-2020),Quark (03-28-2020)

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## Abbey

> They can if that equipment and supplies are deemed essential to save someone else's life.


 They have  an obligation to  first try to save  someone's life.  Period.  

 They can't  just deem people,  un-saveable  and, not even  try and, move on to the next.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020),Quark (03-28-2020)

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## Molly Pitcher

> They have  an obligation to  first try to save  someone's life.  Period.  
> 
>  They can't  just deem people,  un-saveable  and, not even  try and, move on to the next.


That's how it USED to be.  These days.....WHO KNOWS?

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## tiny1

> Betray their oath?  Doctors who perform abortions (aside from those necessary to save the mother) violate their oath of _FIRST, DO NO HARM_ on a daily basis...   Doctors perform all kinds of UNnecessary cosmetic surgeries that are dangerous, rather than leave the narcissist patient as they are.


You and I know that, but from a Doctor's POV, they don't consider an unborn, a person, and that is their sad Justification.  I don't agree, but LEGALLY, they are covered.
There is no denying, not resuscitating a patient, who is obviously not an unborn, against their wishes, IS a violation of their oath.  So, Apples to Coconuts.
If you stated in your Living Will that you choose to fight for life until you die, they MUST abide that Living Will, unless they get an Injunction from the Court, or permission from the family.  Well, Kinda of hard to leave at that juncture, to get a court order.  They would have to fight that battle before it became an issue, and they would not do that, because the expense would be too great. 
C'mon folks.  Common Sense.

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2cent (03-28-2020),Conservative Libertarian (03-28-2020),Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## Abbey

> Generalized Bullshit.
> My Elderly Mother has a Resuscitate Once order.  
> She is also a Jehovah's Witness, and will not accept blood transfusions.  
> So, I have been round and round with Doctors about these issues.
> If my mother was to stop breathing, they have to resuscitate her once.  No judge can intervene until long after the fact.  Resuscitation not covered under the Living Will becomes the discretion of the attending Physician.  If they refused to resuscitate her, without a court order or my permission, they would be paying my posterity for the rest of their entire lives.  No Physician is gonna risk malpractice FOR WHICH THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, in the heat of the moment.  Administrators?  Maybe.  If they betray the Oath, their Medical career would be gone.  And, If you COULD find a judge to support such  an obvious wrongful death, no Appellate Court would do so.
> And, before you try, I am so Old, I have an Autographed Copy of the Bible.  I am not naïve.  Neither is Trinnity or Calypso.  I'd trust them, before you.


 Resuscitating once, then stopping  if it doesn't  do the trick,  is different than,  not trying  at all...saying  someone  is too old to save,  is sickening.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## Trinnity

> Trinnity is angelic and well-meaning, but she is blissfully naive about how things work in the real world, especially in Blue states.


Maybe you don't know much about me. I'm a multi-skilled xray tech with nearly 4 decades of working in: a children's hospital, 3 regular hospitals where I did a lot of 2nd shift,  ER/OR/SURG, a diagnostic center, and an urgent care.  I dated 2 radiologists, a surgeon, 2 er docs, and I can tell you  it's incompetence and mistakes that kill people in hospitals. I'm far from naive.

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2cent (03-28-2020),Abbey (03-28-2020),Conservative Libertarian (03-28-2020),Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020),OldSchool (03-28-2020),tiny1 (03-28-2020)

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## tiny1

> Resuscitating once, then stopping  if it doesn't  do the trick,  is different than,  not trying  at all...saying  someone  is too old to save,  is sickening.


Yes, and the only reason they should stop, is if there is a Resuscitate Once order.  If they do not specify "Once" then it is a fight till the end order.  And to my point, find a doctor willing to gamble everything; Home, Career, and Reputation, on NOT trying.  
I get really pretty weary of people's conspiracies.  Not every issue carries a "plot" to destroy us.  
Governor Roy Cooper has issued a Shut Down Order for NC, effective Monday.  30 Days duration.  I'll be attending here less often, since I usually post from work.  Just FYI, everyone.

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Conservative Libertarian (03-28-2020)

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## JustPassinThru

Resources are not unlimited.

This is part of why it was/is so imperative that the spread of this virus be slowed (I don't think it can be stopped).  To avoid exhausting resources.

This, the managing/rationing of resources (equipment, medicine and time) is what happens in crisis situation when hospitals go to triage.  They have to budget their time - the most-needed with reasonable prognoses, get the most attention and, hopefully, enough resources.  Others are left waiting; and - although they don't advertise it - after a flood, tornado, other calamity...there are patients who expire for lack of professionals' time or for want of transport to a specialty center.

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Quark (03-28-2020)

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## tiny1

> Maybe you don't know much about me. I'm a multi-skilled xray tech with nearly 4 decades of working in: a children's hospital, 3 regular hospitals where I did a lot of 2nd shift,  ER/OR/SURG, a diagnostic center, and an urgent care.  I dated 2 radiologists, a surgeon, 2 er docs, and I can tell you  it's incompetence and mistakes that kill people in hospitals. I'm far from naive.


Bravissimo, Cara Mia.

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Conservative Libertarian (03-28-2020),Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## kazenatsu

> If my mother was to stop breathing, they have to resuscitate her once.  No judge can intervene until long after the fact.  Resuscitation not covered under the Living Will becomes the discretion of the attending Physician.  If they refused to resuscitate her, without a court order or my permission, they would be paying my posterity for the rest of their entire lives.  No Physician is gonna risk malpractice FOR WHICH THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, in the heat of the moment.  Administrators?  Maybe.  If they betray the Oath, their Medical career would be gone.  And, If you COULD find a judge to support such  an obvious wrongful death, no Appellate Court would do so.


You assume laws are set in stone. They could easily be ignored in an emergency. Very unlikely any judge would intervene or hold the hospital responsible, in those circumstances.
Certainly there's _some_ risk to the hospital, yes, which is why they are trying to get informal approval from authorities higher up. 

You are way too trusting in government upholding rights. You've obviously never lived in a Blue state.

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Quark (03-28-2020)

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## Trinnity

> Bravissimo, Cara Mia.


Well, Kaz is sweet. No harm done.

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## Quark

> Trinnity is angelic and well-meaning, but she is blissfully naive about how things work in the real world, especially in Blue states.
> 
> Any judge in a Blue area would have no problem upholding a hospital policy like this, if the hospital told them it was essential to save lives and prevent hospital workers from getting infected. 
> 
> Remember, Blue ideologues think in terms of utilitarian ethics, rather than individual deontological morality.


Yup you have that right. In a collectivist society ethics is all about the greater good, only the collective matters the individual has little value. This national lock down in our fascist society is a prime example of utilitarian ethics. The collective will survive while many individuals will die.

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## Quark

> Generalized Bullshit.
> My Elderly Mother has a Resuscitate Once order.  
> She is also a Jehovah's Witness, and will not accept blood transfusions.  
> So, I have been round and round with Doctors about these issues.
> If my mother was to stop breathing, they have to resuscitate her once.  No judge can intervene until long after the fact.  Resuscitation not covered under the Living Will becomes the discretion of the attending Physician.  If they refused to resuscitate her, without a court order or my permission, they would be paying my posterity for the rest of their entire lives.  No Physician is gonna risk malpractice FOR WHICH THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, in the heat of the moment.  Administrators?  Maybe.  If they betray the Oath, their Medical career would be gone.  And, If you COULD find a judge to support such  an obvious wrongful death, no Appellate Court would do so.
> And, before you try, I am so Old, I have an Autographed Copy of the Bible.  I am not naïve.  Neither is Trinnity or Calypso.  I'd trust them, before you.


What you say is true but that is not the same thing as what is being experienced now. We now live in a total fascist society and government. All old laws are null and void. What we are experiencing is the new norm. Out of this mess will come a whole new set of laws that many of us will not believe is happening. The fall out from COVID-19 is going to horrendous.

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## Quark

> You and I know that, but from a Doctor's POV, they don't consider an unborn, a person, and that is their sad Justification.  I don't agree, but LEGALLY, they are covered.
> There is no denying, not resuscitating a patient, who is obviously not an unborn, against their wishes, IS a violation of their oath.  So, Apples to Coconuts.
> If you stated in your Living Will that you choose to fight for life until you die, they MUST abide that Living Will, unless they get an Injunction from the Court, or permission from the family.  Well, Kinda of hard to leave at that juncture, to get a court order.  They would have to fight that battle before it became an issue, and they would not do that, because the expense would be too great. 
> C'mon folks.  Common Sense.


You are missing the point. We have crossed the line and entered a new normal era of full on fascism. I have a living will and this new era now makes it null and void.

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## Quark

> Resuscitating once, then stopping  if it doesn't  do the trick,  is different than,  not trying  at all...saying  someone  is too old to save,  is sickening.


Maybe but that is going to be the new norm. BTW: I know for a fact that that happens all the time in hospitals. I guess some of you are just catching up to reality.

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## Trinnity

> If they refused to resuscitate her, without a court order or my permission, they would be paying my posterity for the rest of their entire lives.  No Physician is gonna risk malpractice FOR WHICH THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, in the heat of the moment.  Administrators?  Maybe.


This ^^^  . The lawyers are just too scary.




> Betray their oath?  Doctors who perform abortions


Leave them out of it. There aren't very many of them and other doctors aren't complicit.




> Yes, and the only reason they should stop, is if there is a Resuscitate Once order.  If they do not specify "Once" then it is a fight till the end order.  And to my point, find a doctor willing to gamble everything; Home, Career, and Reputation, on NOT trying.  
> I get really pretty weary of people's conspiracies.  Not every issue carries a "plot" to destroy us.


Ditto.




> Yup you have that right. In a collectivist society


We don't live in a collectivist society, and won't as long as Americans  have the American Spirit, and it's in our DNA. 




> We have crossed the line and entered a new normal era of full on fascism.


No, we haven't. Your hair is on fire. Staaaahp~

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020),tiny1 (03-28-2020)

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## Quark

We have @Trinnity and you don't realize it yet. But you and everybody else will soon enough. I'm done. I've done my work. You all sit back and enjoy the fascist ride.

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## Trinnity

> I think not. I just lost someone close. I'm certain they killed her.


Look where you're living...did that have anything to do with it? Have you all even recovered from the natural disasters down there?

It's mistakes and incompetence that kill, not malice. If something else happened, it was murder. You could go to the Embassy and report them, right?

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## Trinnity

> We have @Trinnity and you don't realize it yet. But you and everybody else will soon enough. I'm done. I've done my work. You all sit back and enjoy the fascist ride.


Oh my sweetheart, I love you just the way you are, but I really don't think you need to worry too much. After Trump is gone, it'll be back to the same                 battle, but I have      optimism. Hang in there?

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## tiny1

kazenatsu




> You assume laws are set in stone. They could easily be ignored in an emergency. Very unlikely any judge would intervene or hold the hospital responsible, in those circumstances.
> Certainly there's _some_ risk to the hospital, yes, which is why they are trying to get informal approval from authorities higher up. 
> 
> You are way too trusting in government upholding rights. You've obviously never lived in a Blue state.


I was Born and Raised In Sunny Southern California, Genius.  My Kids, Grandkids and Little Brother still live there.
Yanno, you aren't very good at sizing people up, are you.  Maybe you should rethink that.
You try to tell Trinnity about Hospital Procedure, and find out she has forgotten more about hospitals than you know.  Then, you tell me I've never lived in a Blue State, and I was born and raised in the Bluest of the Blue.  
No, Einstein, I don't trust the gooberment.  I trust PEOPLE to use Common Sense and not give in to stupid Conspiracies.  There are people who believe 9/11 was staged by the Bush Administration to justify war with Iraq.  Some people believe that the Moon Landing was in a Studio.  Others that Elvis never Died.  And Some, that Hospitals are allowed to rescind resuscitation on a whim.  Furthermore, do you think Malpractice Insurance is so extremely high because the courts give doctors the benefit of the doubt? :Smiley ROFLMAO: 
Oh Brother.

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2cent (03-28-2020)

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## tiny1

> You are missing the point. We have crossed the line and entered a new normal era of full on fascism. I have a living will and this new era now makes it null and void.


Put the Anarchist Cookbook away.  
I KNOW what I am talking about.  I have discussed this at length with my Mother's Doctors and Attorneys, and I know my rights. Yours is opinionated supposition.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## tiny1

> We have @Trinnity and you don't realize it yet. But you and everybody else will soon enough. I'm done. I've done my work. You all sit back and enjoy the fascist ride.


Yeah, yeah yeah, we are all so stupid, ignorant bumpkins and we should be glad you are here to keep us from walking right off the cliff. :Lame:

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Kodiak (03-28-2020),Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## tiny1

> Well, Kaz is sweet. No harm done.


Yeah, but a lousy judge of character.  Well done, Trinnity.

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## Kodiak

> Yeah, yeah yeah, we are all so stupid, ignorant bumpkins and we should be glad you are here to keep us from walking right off the cliff.


Sorry but......... :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## 2cent

> _Dr. Birx addressed this at the presser today._ *This is not going to happen.* I can't even imagine the lawsuits. I wouldn't be surprised if this was reporting on a rumor started by a Dem operative or one of the lefty press organizations.


I couldn't bring myself to read the entire article, seeing it _immediately_ as total bull.  Sorry, OP, NO SALE.

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## 2cent

> Generalized Bullshit.
> My Elderly Mother has a Resuscitate Once order.  
> She is also a Jehovah's Witness, and will not accept blood transfusions.  
> So, I have been round and round with Doctors about these issues.
> If my mother was to stop breathing, they have to resuscitate her once.  No judge can intervene until long after the fact.  Resuscitation not covered under the Living Will becomes the discretion of the attending Physician.  If they refused to resuscitate her, without a court order or my permission, they would be paying my posterity for the rest of their entire lives.  No Physician is gonna risk malpractice FOR WHICH THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE, in the heat of the moment.  Administrators?  Maybe.  If they betray the Oath, their Medical career would be gone.  And, If you COULD find a judge to support such  an obvious wrongful death, no Appellate Court would do so.
> And, before you try, I am so Old, I have an Autographed Copy of the Bible.  I am not naïve.  Neither is Trinnity or Calypso.  I'd trust them, before you.


When conspiracy vs. reality, I trust _you_ to be on reality's side.  Besides, you're right.

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tiny1 (03-30-2020)

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## 2cent

> kazenatsu
> 
> 
> I was Born and Raised In Sunny Southern California, Genius.  My Kids, Grandkids and Little Brother still live there.
> Yanno, you aren't very good at sizing people up, are you.  Maybe you should rethink that.
> You try to tell Trinnity about Hospital Procedure, and find out she has forgotten more about hospitals than you know.  Then, you tell me I've never lived in a Blue State, and I was born and raised in the Bluest of the Blue.  
> No, Einstein, I don't trust the gooberment.  I trust PEOPLE to use Common Sense and not give in to stupid Conspiracies.  There are people who believe 9/11 was staged by the Bush Administration to justify war with Iraq.  Some people believe that the Moon Landing was in a Studio.  Others that Elvis never Died.  And Some, that Hospitals are allowed to rescind resuscitation on a whim.  Furthermore, do you think Malpractice Insurance is so extremely high because the courts give doctors the benefit of the doubt?
> Oh Brother.


Can't help myself:
 :Applause:

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## Molly Pitcher

*Experts weigh in on rationing health care based on age or disability*https://www.wnd.com/2020/03/experts-...ntent=breaking

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## Molly Pitcher



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## Molly Pitcher



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## JMWinPR

> Look where you're living...did that have anything to do with it? Have you all even recovered from the natural disasters down there?
> 
> It's mistakes and incompetence that kill, not malice. If something else happened, it was murder. You could go to the Embassy and report them, right?


Can't prove it. As for the earthquakes, not much different than anywhere else. Same with the storms. Just some of the hazards with living in paradise. The problem is, people don't "register" there homes to avoid taxes. End result is FEMA can't help them. The lockdown is another matter. Waiters and people like them make their money on tips and don't report it. There are literally thousands of little eateries, which may support a family, all of this is not reported and they will get nothing. We can recover from everything other than government corruption.

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## JustPassinThru

> BUT....do we actually KNOW this is fake news?



With the nooze liars acting like revolutionaries on LSD...we can know nothing.

This is how a society collapses.  Moral codes are abandoned; there is nothing but chaos, much of it deliberate, and lies, all of it intended to delude and confuse.

What the HELL GOOD are these seven-figure-salary aging sluts and Mercedes-Marxist Valley-Girl revolutionaries?  What do we NEED them for?  They are just confusing the public.  They IGNORE facts, try to hide them; continue to plant false assertions, in promotion of their favorite form of Transformation - one that's failed every time it's been tried in 150 years.

They are useless; and they are traitors and working to injure Americans.

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Molly Pitcher (03-28-2020)

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## kazenatsu

> *This is not going to happen.*


For any of you who believe no one would ever do this, I would refer you to this thread from another forum:
http://www.politicalforum.com/index....corona.570365/

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Molly Pitcher (04-24-2020)

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## JustPassinThru

> For any of you who believe no one would ever do this, I would refer you to this thread from another forum:
> http://www.politicalforum.com/index....corona.570365/


A lot has changed, and will change more.

I, for myself, always figured goobermint healf kair would kill me.  It's just unsettling to see the mechanics and methods set in place.

I figured it would be some variation of The Big One, which would knock down power and access to medicine.  And the kids with broken limbs would get the medics' attention, and us sick old people, would be told to go away.

This is a bit different, but the same reversion to primitive - except this is now being imposed by a sitting government suddenly gone barbaric.

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Molly Pitcher (04-24-2020)

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## Molly Pitcher

> A lot has changed, and will change more.
> 
> I, for myself, always figured goobermint healf kair would kill me.  It's just unsettling to see the mechanics and methods set in place.
> 
> I figured it would be some variation of The Big One, which would knock down power and access to medicine.  And the kids with broken limbs would get the medics' attention, and us sick old people, would be told to go away.
> 
> This is a bit different, but the same reversion to primitive - except this is now being imposed by a sitting government suddenly gone barbaric.


It's pissing me off to see health care workers blocking protestors that want to reopen the country, and pushing for SOCIALIZED medicine.  They HAVE to know what that would mean, the kind of care, or rather LACK of we would get.  Are they insane?

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## Molly Pitcher

> kazenatsu
> 
> 
> I was Born and Raised In Sunny Southern California, Genius.  My Kids, Grandkids and Little Brother still live there.
> Yanno, you aren't very good at sizing people up, are you.  Maybe you should rethink that.
> You try to tell Trinnity about Hospital Procedure, and find out she has forgotten more about hospitals than you know.  Then, you tell me I've never lived in a Blue State, and I was born and raised in the Bluest of the Blue.  
> No, Einstein, I don't trust the gooberment.  I trust PEOPLE to use Common Sense and not give in to stupid Conspiracies.  There are people who believe 9/11 was staged by the Bush Administration to justify war with Iraq.  Some people believe that the Moon Landing was in a Studio.  Others that Elvis never Died.  And Some, that Hospitals are allowed to rescind resuscitation on a whim.  Furthermore, do you think Malpractice Insurance is so extremely high because the courts give doctors the benefit of the doubt?
> Oh Brother.


Nursing homes, at least around here, are not allowing family members to visit a relative who is or may be dying, even if they're wearing masks, gloves or anything else.  They're dying without loved ones being there to comfort them when they pass.  You THAT sure they aren't rescinding resuscitate when they deem it?  There have been plenty of reports they're doing exactly that.  And other reports when emergency vehicles bring a patient to the hospital, and they have stopped breathing on arrival, not attempting CPR then...   Show me your PROOF that this is not going on.

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## Molly Pitcher

> For any of you who believe no one would ever do this, I would refer you to this thread from another forum:
> http://www.politicalforum.com/index....corona.570365/


I see a lot of cold-hearted little pricks on that site....but they're snowflakes, especially after I saw this comment:  "There shouldnt be an automatic right to hospitalisation if youve used up your time on earth".  Who are they to decide who has "used up their time"?  Those people have probably given more to humanity/the planet than a hundred little snowflakes EVER will...  I pray none of them go into the health profession.

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## kazenatsu

> I see a lot of cold-hearted little pricks on that site....


My point being there is a lot of people in society who would be perfectly okay with this happening.

Maybe conservatives in Red areas don't fully realize how things are different in Blue areas, perceptions and public mentality are different.

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Molly Pitcher (04-24-2020)

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