# Politics and News > Rants, Opinions, Observations >  You Fuel the System: Buying into the Hegelian Dialectic

## Guest

"...the State 'has the supreme right  						against the individual, whose supreme duty is to be a  						member of the State... for the right of the world spirit  						is above all special privileges.'" Author/historian  						William Shirer, quoting Georg Hegel in his _The Rise  						and Fall of the Third Reich_  						(1959, page 144)

The world is moving towards global statism and corporatism.  This shift began in the mid-late 1800's and has been moving consistently, slowly in the direction of one world corporatism with the "state" regulating your existence "for the greater good".  In the US we tightened our own noose with the rise of the Democratic and Republican parties.  What you think is a two party system organically designed for choice, is not.  It creates hatred, mutinous thought, and suffocates liberty.  

Washington said:

_The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by  the  spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different  ages  and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is  itself a  frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal  and  permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result,  gradually  incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the  absolute  power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some  prevailing  faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors,  turns this  disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the  ruins of Public  Liberty_


That is true, as well, but it's even worse.  All our founders warned against the two party system because it is a ruse, a lie meant to give the illusion of choice, but to actually constrict choice.  It is a trap that we walk into because in our own heads we believe differently than "the other party", therefore those in Washington associated with the same label also feel this way.

Nothing could be further from the truth.  The (we'll call them) progressives decided purposefully to create a system of opposition.  This is called "The Hegelian Dialectic"

Here is a brief explanation for it:

In 1847 the London Communist League (Karl  					Marx and Frederick Engels) used 					 Hegel's theory of the dialectic  					to back up their economic theory of communism. Now, in the  					21st century, Hegelian-Marxist thinking affects our entire  					social and political structure. The 					 Hegelian dialectic is the  					framework for guiding our thoughts and actions into  					conflicts that lead us to a predetermined solution. If we do  					not understand how the Hegelian dialectic shapes our  					perceptions of the world, then we do not know how we are  					helping to implement the 					 vision. *When we remain  					locked into dialectical thinking, we cannot see out of the  					box.*

					Hegel's dialectic is the tool which manipulates us into a  					frenzied circular pattern of thought and action. Every time  					we fight for or defend against an ideology we are playing a  					necessary role in Marx and Engels' grand design to advance  					humanity into a dictatorship of the proletariat. The 					 synthetic Hegelian 					 solution to all these  					conflicts can't be introduced unless we all take a side that  					will advance the agenda. The Marxist's global 					 agenda is moving along at  					breakneck speed. The only way to completely stop the privacy  					invasions, expanding domestic police powers, land grabs,  					insane wars against inanimate objects (and transient verbs),  					covert actions, and outright assaults on individual liberty,  					is to *step outside the dialectic. This releases us from  					the limitations of controlled and guided thought.* 

					When we understand what motivated Hegel, we can see his  					influence on all of our destinies. ... *Hegelian conflicts*  					steer every political arena on the planet, from the United  					Nations to the major American political parties, all the way  					down to local school boards and community councils. * 					Dialogues and consensus-building are primary tools of the  					dialectic*, and terror and intimidation are also  					acceptable formats for obtaining the goal. The ultimate 					 Third Way agenda is world  					government. Once we get what's really going on, we can cut  					the strings and move our lives in original directions  					outside the confines of the dialectical madness.
.  
This system works perfectly.  It creates a system where we are herded left and right, but always forward

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Canadianeye (01-10-2013),pjohns (01-10-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-10-2013),St James (01-10-2013)

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## Guest

Basically, when you buy into this 2 party system you are voting ultimately for progressivism and statism no matter who you select.

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## Calypso Jones

that's too general.  Cant you make it simpler to understand.  It's a very simple three/four point process.

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## Guest

> that's too general.  Cant you make it simpler to understand.  It's a very simple three/four point process.


Basically Hegel and Marxists believed that people don't necessarily want what they are selling.  So you have to create a problem.  Offer the solution you want, then a counter solution but that counter solution should be shown in a less pleasant light than the one you want them to buy.  It also works by giving two solutions with one solution something you won't accept, then the other solution (what you want to have accepted) waiting in the wings.

They only get two choices at any time.  

So, we'll say that Obama wants to incrementally get our guns what does he do?  

Some crazy liberal types will get on the news and talk gun grabs.  You'll get so hyped up and scared that when a Republican says.._.look, we don't need assault rifles, let's just give them the assault rifles_...you'll go for it.  Incrementally, you will get to where you only have hunting rifles.  This is how it happened in NY.

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## Coolwalker

This what the Left does, not the Right. The Right tells the truth without "being all lovey-dovey"...the Left uses scare tactics and creates problems where there were none then says "don't worry, we can save you".

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## Guest

> This what the Left does, not the Right. The Right tells the truth without "being all lovey-dovey"...the Left uses scare tactics and creates problems where there were none then says "don't worry, we can save you".


They work in tandem in Washington.  YOU think they don't because you understand your internal thoughts and believe they feel the same.  Look at how certain, believable Republicans are now arguing for some gun control.

The Dems played that card for the Republicans before Iraq.

Its a game.

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## Canadianeye

> "...the State 'has the supreme right                         against the individual, whose supreme duty is to be a                         member of the State... for the right of the world spirit                         is above all special privileges.'" Author/historian                         William Shirer, quoting Georg Hegel in his _The Rise                         and Fall of the Third Reich_                         (1959, page 144)
> 
> The world is moving towards global statism and corporatism. This shift began in the mid-late 1800's and has been moving consistently, slowly in the direction of one world corporatism with the "state" regulating your existence "for the greater good". In the US we tightened our own noose with the rise of the Democratic and Republican parties. What you think is a two party system organically designed for choice, is not. It creates hatred, mutinous thought, and suffocates liberty. 
> 
> Washington said:
> 
> _The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty_
> 
> 
> ...


I have in the past mentioned this Rina. It is that "thing" that eludes description at times, that Cons try to put into words, that stumbles out something like:

Progressives always win through gradualism. Conservatism always loses, every single time on it's issues.

It is the operating of the dialectic, specifically Marxs application of it to communism, that we are seeing...and trying to explain.

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## Calypso Jones

It's very simple.  I don't buy into it...conservatives don't buy into it..that is the problem..THAT is why we are so maligned and attacked by the left at this point.  This is easy to do to those that blindly follow the left though.

1.  First step, The Thesis.   CREATE A PROBLEM.
2. Second Step, Antithesis.  Stir up trouble and fear concerning the PROBLEM.
3. Third Step, Synthesis.   Come up with a solution to the problem CREATED in the first step.

The solution...Synthesis, requires changes which would never be tolerated except for the psychological conditioning achieved by step one and step two.

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St James (01-10-2013)

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## Guest

> It's very simple.  I don't buy into it...conservatives don't buy into it..that is the problem..THAT is why we are so maligned and attacked by the left at this point.  This is easy to do to those that blindly follow the left though.
> 
> 1.  First step, The Thesis.   CREATE A PROBLEM.
> 2. Second Step, Antithesis.  Stir up trouble and fear concerning the PROBLEM.
> 3. Third Step, Synthesis.   Come up with a solution to the problem CREATED in the first step.
> 
> The solution...Synthesis, requires changes which would never be tolerated except for the psychological conditioning achieved by step one and step two.


You're thinking about this wrong.  You think "conservative" and in your head you think about "conservatives" like you and your neighbor down the street.  There is a vast difference between you and a progressive in ideology and goals.  HUGE difference.

In Washington they move towards the same globalist, statist design.  Left angled forward step...pause....right angled forward step....pause...left angled forward step...pause...right angled forward step.  Democrats and Republicans both are members of the CFR.  Both attend Bilderberg meetings.  Both have stock in international corporations.  Both have ties to international banking.  Both parties have used the tag "New World Order" starting in the 1980s.

It is not about left or right anymore.  It is about the statists and you.

Tell me, when was the last time anyone in government voted to return powers or rights to the people?


Exactly.

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## Guest

Case and point:

http://www.towleroad.com/2012/12/new...-equality.html

A few weeks ago Gingrich said he's come to see the "reality" of our changing culture,  and last night Gingrich told Fox News' Greta Van Susteren that he hopes  the GOP will come to understand the "human side" of same-sex love. 
 An excerpt, via JMG:
 I think this is a very complicated human problem and Republicans need  to take a deep breath and understand we need to deal with the human  side of this equation — and understand that we want to defend marriage  in its classic form between a man and a woman. I don’t accept that  there’s an alternative. The government can declare that a Ford truck is  Air Force One. That doesn’t mean it can fly. It’s not that I want to  change my belief. I think that in fact it’s a big mistake to be confused  about this issue.

But I think it’s also a legal reality that now people are being allowed to create legal status over here.
Read more: http://www.towleroad.com/#ixzz2HbwyT7Kg

It's all steps forward.  One presents an extreme POV, the other follows up with a less extreme POV.

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## Calypso Jones

> You're thinking about this wrong. You think "conservative" and in your head you think about "conservatives" like you and your neighbor down the street. There is a vast difference between you and a progressive in ideology and goals. HUGE difference.
> 
> In Washington they move towards the same globalist, statist design. Left angled forward step...pause....right angled forward step....pause...left angled forward step...pause...right angled forward step. Democrats and Republicans both are members of the CFR. Both attend Bilderberg meetings. Both have stock in international corporations. Both have ties to international banking. Both parties have used the tag "New World Order" starting in the 1980s.
> 
> It is not about left or right anymore. It is about the statists and you.
> 
> Tell me, when was the last time anyone in government voted to return powers or rights to the people?
> 
> 
> Exactly.


i agree wholeheartedly. We have plenty of right wing progressives ourselves and they're our enemies...but what has that to do with The Hegelian Dialectic which is primarily used by the left and the left alone.  like now on this gun thing.

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## St James

> It's very simple.  I don't buy into it...conservatives don't buy into it..that is the problem..THAT is why we are so maligned and attacked by the left at this point.  This is easy to do to those that blindly follow the left though.
> 
> 1.  First step, The Thesis.   CREATE A PROBLEM.
> 2. Second Step, Antithesis.  Stir up trouble and fear concerning the PROBLEM.
> 3. Third Step, Synthesis.   Come up with a solution to the problem CREATED in the first step.
> 
> The solution...Synthesis, requires changes which would never be tolerated except for the psychological conditioning achieved by step one and step two.


perfectly phrased.......................cudos

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## Trinnity

> Its a game.


Yep.




> Progressives always win through gradualism. Conservatism always loses, every single time on it's issues.
> It is the operating of the dialectic, specifically Marxs application of it to communism, that we are seeing...and trying to explain.


Yep.




> It's very simple.  I don't buy into it...conservatives don't buy into it..that is the problem..THAT is why we are so maligned and attacked by the left at this point.  This is easy to do to those that blindly follow the left though.
> 
> 1.  First step, The Thesis.   CREATE A PROBLEM.
> 2. Second Step, Antithesis.  Stir up trouble and fear concerning the PROBLEM.
> 3. Third Step, Synthesis.   Come up with a solution to the problem CREATED in the first step.
> 
> The solution...Synthesis, requires changes which would never be tolerated except for the psychological conditioning achieved by step one and step two.


The phrase comes to mind. The govt breaks your leg and gives you a crutch.

Incrementalism. I've said it. I'm saying it again. That's what the Dem party does and it works. We're skee-rooed.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Yep.
> 
> Yep.
> 
> The phrase comes to mind. The govt breaks your leg and gives you a crutch.
> 
> Incrementalism. I've said it. I'm saying it again. That's what the Dem party does and it works. We're skee-rooed.


The GOP does it too though, is the point. They both do it. It takes two to tango.

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## Guest

> The GOP does it too though, is the point. They both do it. It takes two to tango.


It's not that their both doing it, it is that they are doing it *together.*  The two parties are growing the size of government *together* and making fools of us all.  They are going by the Marx-Hegel playbook to create a statist society....BIG, BIG, BIG government.

People don't realize it because they think the people in Washington think like them.  They don't.  They might before they leave town with their suitcase for DC, but after a while the globalists come knocking and the rewards are great.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> It's not that their both doing it, it is that they are doing it *together.*  The two parties are growing the size of government *together* and making fools of us all.  They are going by the Marx-Hegel playbook to create a statist society....BIG, BIG, BIG government.


That's what I meant  :Tongue: 




> People don't realize it because they think the people in Washington think like them.  They don't.  They might before they leave town with their suitcase for DC, but after a while the globalists come knocking and the rewards are great.


It's the nature of power. They may start out good, but eventually that seed of evil slowly grows in their mind. Once planted, it can only be killed by bowing out. But the longer you let it fester, the longer you let it grow, the more it becomes to corrupt you.

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## Dan40

If you subscribe to the theory that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Then you are a proponent of assured doom.  As anyone in power will be corrupt.  Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green Party, Whig, whatever, THEY will be corrupt,,,,,,,,,,,if the theory is correct.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> If you subscribe to the theory that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Then you are a proponent of assured doom.  As anyone in power will be corrupt.  Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green Party, Whig, whatever, THEY will be corrupt,,,,,,,,,,,if the theory is correct.


Yep. And?

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## Dan40

> Yep. And?


It is a complete statement.

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## Guest

> If you subscribe to the theory that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Then you are a proponent of assured doom.  As anyone in power will be corrupt.  Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Green Party, Whig, whatever, THEY will be corrupt,,,,,,,,,,,if the theory is correct.


This thread is not at all about that, Dan.  Yes, power does corrupt, absolute power does corrupt absolutely, BUT that's not what I'm talking about.

It is a purposeful, thoughtful, push on both sides of the aisle by people who consider themselves "elite", ie "better than you" to save you from the mistakes made by your own idiocy and mediocrity.  They would not consider themselves corrupted.  They want a new world order (hate using that term, but that's what they say from Bush Sr to Obama) where the State and global oligopolies run things and you have all of those petty decisions removed for your own good.

They don't even lie about this.  Go to their think tank websites.

Left...right...this means something to YOU.  It means nothing to them but a tool to maneuver you where they want.  You are a conservative, Calypso is a conservative, liberal hack is probably a liberal...the Bush's, the Romney's, the Obamas, the Clintons...they are not.  They are globalists with a statist agenda.

That's the Hegelian dialectic at work.

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## Dan40

And so you back an ineffective idiot like Ron Paul that could not and cannot win an election outside his Galveston district.  A man with a 30 year career of accomplishing nothing in Congress.  That's your answer?

You cannot overcome power with stupidity.

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## Guest

> And so you back an ineffective idiot like Ron Paul that could not and cannot win an election outside his Galveston district.  A man with a 30 year career of accomplishing nothing in Congress.  That's your answer?
> 
> You cannot overcome power with stupidity.


There's the Tarpeian rock in front of us.  You're method to "avoid" suicide is to walk slowly forward towards the rock in the hopes that the gods will swoop down and save you (tho they've saved no one before), pointing out that others have ran towards death so your inching towards it is a solid system of death avoidance, while at the same time condemning the man who fought the praetorian and lost.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> And so you back an ineffective idiot like Ron Paul that could not and cannot win an election outside his Galveston district.  A man with a 30 year career of accomplishing nothing in Congress.  That's your answer?
> 
> You cannot overcome power with stupidity.


Here's what you don't get, troll. Paul accomplished more than your grumpy ass because more people today know about the evils of government and the federal reserve specifically because of him. Ten Congressmen and two Senators have seats because Paul was one of their endorsements and because they promised to go after the federal reserve.

So you know what? Paul raised awareness that wouldn't exist without him. He got a federal reserve bill passed the House _bipartisanly_ and would have had the same results in the Senate if Harry Reid was not Majority Leader.

So stuff it.

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The XL (01-11-2013)

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## The XL

Dan40 is a big government statist who puts down Ron Paul because he's afraid of him and what he represents, small government.  I wouldn't waste too much time feeding the troll.

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## Guest

> Dan40 is a big government statist who puts down Ron Paul because he's afraid of him and what he represents, small government.  I wouldn't waste too much time feeding the troll.


You are right, Binks.

And the thread is derailed and it is an important topic.

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## The XL

> You are right, Binks.
> 
> And the thread is derailed and it is an important topic.


Ya.  Successful troll was successful, I guess.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You are right, Binks.
> 
> And the thread is derailed and it is an important topic.


Have you noticed that it's usually the same individuals that obfuscate and derail threads that are on personal liberty and limited government?

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## Guest

> Ya.  Successful troll was successful, I guess.


Back to the dialectic...

Right now, the federal government wants to remove guns from the citizens, so what do they do?

Problem
Reaction
Solution

Sooooooo much gun violence where less than 12,000 died in a nation of 310 million people
"Think of the children!  You hate children if you won't give up your guns!

Democratic Solution: BAN ALL GUNS!!!  Let's grab the guns!!!
Republican Solution:  Look, they want the guns.  Let's give them something.  How about we get rid of assault rifles, large magazines, and make it harder to buy pistols.

^^Hegelian Dialectic

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-11-2013)

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## Coolwalker

*"shall not be infringed"*

What part of that is not understandable?

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Irascible Crusader (01-11-2013)

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## The XL

> Back to the dialectic...
> 
> Right now, the federal government wants to remove guns from the citizens, so what do they do?
> 
> Problem
> Reaction
> Solution
> 
> Sooooooo much gun violence where less than 12,000 died in a nation of 310 million people
> ...


There is a big problem though.  The mainstream media can prop up the outrage whenever they see fit by exploiting some sort of gun death.  They can consistently feed these idiots outrage.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> There is a big problem though.  The mainstream media can prop up the outrage whenever they see fit by exploiting some sort of gun death.  They can consistently feed these idiots outrage.


So we play their game, change the rules, and use it against them.

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## Guest

> Have you noticed that it's usually the same individuals that obfuscate and derail threads that are on personal liberty and limited government?


Yes.  The same individuals every time.

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## Guest

> So we play their game, change the rules, and use it against them.


We are going to have to come up with some crazy viral video, I swear.

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## The XL

> We are going to have to come up with some crazy viral video, I swear.


That's the only way I can see us fighting the mainstream media propaganda machine.

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## Dan40

> Dan40 is a big government statist who puts down Ron Paul because he's afraid of him and what he represents, small government.  I wouldn't waste too much time feeding the troll.


Ron Paul is a now retired old man that spent a lifetime being completely worthless and ineffective.  There is and never was anything to fear from Ron Paul.  He is just another career lying politician that had a different schtick that the terminally gullible think meant something.

Results have meaning.  Bullshit is just bullshit.  RP had lots of bullshit, NOT A SINGLE RESULT from any of his bullshit.  And SOME of his positions were GOOD, accomplishing nothing of the good or wacko positions makes him doubly bad in the eyes of those in touch with reality.  He was and will always remain, a complete of a Congressional seat.

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## Guest

> *"shall not be infringed"*
> 
> What part of that is not understandable?



And yet...they are talking about doing just that, Coolwalker.

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## Guest

> Ron Paul is a now retired old man that spent a lifetime being completely worthless and ineffective.  There is and never was anything to fear from Ron Paul.  He is just another career lying politician that had a different schtick that the terminally gullible think meant something.
> 
> Results have meaning.  Bullshit is just bullshit.  RP had lots of bullshit, NOT A SINGLE RESULT from any of his bullshit.  And SOME of his positions were GOOD, accomplishing nothing of the good or wacko positions makes him doubly bad in the eyes of those in touch with reality.  He was and will always remain, a complete of a Congressional seat.





^^^ Hahahaha.  Have an aneurysm why don't ya.

Either discuss the Hegelian Dialectic or make a Ron Paul thread.

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## The XL

This guy is a relentless troll.

Tell ya what, Dan, just make a thread explaining why you hate small government.  Let it all out there.

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## Dan40

> Here's what you don't get, troll. Paul accomplished more than your grumpy ass because more people today know about the evils of government and the federal reserve specifically because of him. Ten Congressmen and two Senators have seats because Paul was one of their endorsements and because they promised to go after the federal reserve.
> 
> So you know what? Paul raised awareness that wouldn't exist without him. He got a federal reserve bill passed the House _bipartisanly_ and would have had the same results in the Senate if Harry Reid was not Majority Leader.
> 
> So stuff it.


List the LAWS that Paul sponsored and got passed.

Who did he raise the awareness of, the stupid?  What GOOD has come of it?  We still have the Fed operating exactly as it has for all of the 30 years Paul fought it.  It still has the same audit that he fought 30 years to change, unsuccessfully.  We still have no term limits that he unsuccessfully fought to change his whole career.

I have no problem with the good things Paul tried to do.  But I have no respect for 30 years of utter failure.  UTTER FAILURE, not a single one of his major issues ever came close to being law.  NONE DID.  Over 700 tries,,,,,,,,,,,,ZERO results.  That is not a hero, that's an incompetent.

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## Coolwalker

> And yet...they are talking about doing just that, Coolwalker.


yes, and congress and only congress can change the constitution. Not some phony president.

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## Coolwalker

> List the LAWS that Paul sponsored and got passed.
> 
> Who did he raise the awareness of, the stupid?  What GOOD has come of it?  We still have the Fed operating exactly as it has for all of the 30 years Paul fought it.  It still has the same audit that he fought 30 years to change, unsuccessfully.  We still have no term limits that he unsuccessfully fought to change his whole career.
> 
> I have no problem with the good things Paul tried to do.  But I have no respect for 30 years of utter failure.  UTTER FAILURE, not a single one of his major issues ever came close to being law.  NONE DID.  Over 700 tries,,,,,,,,,,,,ZERO results.  That is not a hero, that's an incompetent.


Of the 620 bills sponsored by Ron Paul during his long career in the  House of Representatives, only four have ever made it to a vote on the  House floor and only one of those became an actual law.

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## Coolwalker

Paul, who has served 11 terms in three different stages dating back to  1976, didn't get a single law passed until 2009, when he authored a bill  that allowed for the sale of a customs house in Galveston, Texas.

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## Network

Passing LAWS is a good measure of how tyrannical and bought-off a candidate is by the lobbyists and special interests.  The goal should be to repeal as many laws as possible or at least spread a message and change minds.  Paul's definitely done that as evident by him winning the most votes in the Republican primaries among young voters, at least until it was obviously out of his reach.  The young people, those most likely not to be guided by FOX et al, those who will be the leaders of the future.

He can't really help that the rest of Congress is full of corrupt, pandering politicians.  He can't really help that most people do not realize that the welfare/warfare/corporatist state is unsustainable, and vote in pure greedy self-interest.  

Yes, they fuel the system buy buying into the Hegelian dialectic, but also by being oblivious to the fact that western social(ist) democracies are failing, and failing hard.  In denial.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-11-2013)

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## Guest

I'm going to ask Trinnity to moderate this thread because I've asked politely that it not be derailed into a thread about Ron Paul, but Dan40 continues to do this.

So, fair warning to stop and get back on topic or

I'm telling mom!!!

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## Guest

> Of the 620 bills sponsored by Ron Paul during his long career in the  House of Representatives, only four have ever made it to a vote on the  House floor and only one of those became an actual law.


Because of the Hegelian Dialectic...

Anything that is not part of the progressive program will not see the light of day and no one will support it.  That is my point.  Anything limiting the size of government will not be supported by people in Washington.

Don't blame Ron Paul.  Blame the fake conservatives in Washington.

Progressives want a Soviet like state, do you agree or disagree?



Waits....



Waits....

Okay, not that we're both on the same page.  Soviets controlled the media, they were legally able to spy on anyone at any time, they removed the guns, they were perpetually at "war", and they regulated commerce.

Republicans in 2003 said we needed media consolidation.
Democrats said "no, no"
Republicans brought in a new FCC guy who gave us media consolidation but not as much as they wanted.

Republicans put forth the Patriot Act
Dems said "no, no"
They both signed only the Dems said they signed reluctantly.

Country grows fatigued of war, Dems complain
Obama promises to end the war and repeal the Patriot Act
Republicans say he's crazy and not to do that
Obama comes in because the country is frightened of more war
Obama keeps us in Afghanistan and keeps the Patriot Act

Republicans push for increased surveillance and suspension of the 4th Amendment in the NDAA
The people don't want it
Obama says its okay, even if they vote for it, I'll vet
Dems and Repubs vote for it
Obama now says he'll sign it but never use it
Obama uses it

It goes on an on.

One side pushes something the people can't accept
The other side offers something less bad

Forward march...

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Network (01-11-2013)

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## Network

Rina_paradigm_smasher

Neocons came from a Trotskyite line of thinking.  Spreading their social democracy through taxpayer funded wars.  Socialist Revolutionaries, fooling the Republican voters with complete and utter lies (and media fakery  :Wink: ) and National Greatness propaganda.

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## Dan40

> Passing LAWS is a good measure of how tyrannical and bought-off a candidate is by the lobbyists and special interests.  The goal should be to repeal as many laws as possible or at least spread a message and change minds.  Paul's definitely done that as evident by him winning the most votes in the Republican primaries among young voters, at least until it was obviously out of his reach.  The young people, those most likely not to be guided by FOX et al, those who will be the leaders of the future.
> 
> He can't really help that the rest of Congress is full of corrupt, pandering politicians.  He can't really help that most people do not realize that the welfare/warfare/corporatist state is unsustainable, and vote in pure greedy self-interest.  
> 
> Yes, they fuel the system buy buying into the Hegelian dialectic, but also by being oblivious to the fact that western social(ist) democracies are failing, and failing hard.  In denial.


So in your world, the true measure of a man is how much bullshit he can vomit out and how many times he can fail without a single success.

One wonders why the Libertarian Party has experienced no success in 40 years.  But one does not wonder long.

A NEWS FLASH for you.

Paul's job was as a LEGISLATOR.  Look it up.  He was not elected to bullshit.  But that is all that he ever did.

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## Guest

> So in your world, the true measure of a man is how much bullshit he can vomit out and how many times he can fail without a single success.
> 
> One wonders why the Libertarian Party has experienced no success in 40 years.  But one does not wonder long.
> 
> A NEWS FLASH for you.
> 
> Paul's job was as a LEGISLATOR.  Look it up.  He was not elected to bullshit.  But that is all that he ever did.


Where in his post did he mention Ron Paul?  Nowhere.  Now, get over it and stick to the topic.

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## The XL

> So in your world, the true measure of a man is how much bullshit he can vomit out and how many times he can fail without a single success.
> 
> One wonders why the Libertarian Party has experienced no success in 40 years.  But one does not wonder long.
> 
> A NEWS FLASH for you.
> 
> Paul's job was as a LEGISLATOR.  Look it up.  He was not elected to bullshit.  But that is all that he ever did.


How the fuck was Paul supposed to do anything when Congress is full of bought off big government liberal/neocon statists?

Use your fucking head for once.

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## The XL

> Where in his post did he mention Ron Paul?  Nowhere.  Now, get over it and stick to the topic.


He's fucking obsessed.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Passing LAWS is a good measure of how tyrannical and bought-off a candidate is by the lobbyists and special interests.  The goal should be to repeal as many laws as possible or at least spread a message and change minds.  Paul's definitely done that as evident by him winning the most votes in the Republican primaries among young voters, at least until it was obviously out of his reach.  The young people, those most likely not to be guided by FOX et al, those who will be the leaders of the future.
> 
> He can't really help that the rest of Congress is full of corrupt, pandering politicians.  He can't really help that most people do not realize that the welfare/warfare/corporatist state is unsustainable, and vote in pure greedy self-interest.  
> 
> Yes, they fuel the system buy buying into the Hegelian dialectic, but also by being oblivious to the fact that western social(ist) democracies are failing, and failing hard.  In denial.


Well at least you aren't blaming Ron Paul's failures on me like Zosiasmom does.

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## Irascible Crusader

> How the fuck was Paul supposed to do anything when Congress is full of bought off big government liberal/neocon statists?
> 
> Use your fucking head for once.


Quite a convenient excuse for ineptitude.  Obama uses that excuse too.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I'm going to ask Trinnity to moderate this thread because I've asked politely that it not be derailed into a thread about Ron Paul, but Dan40 continues to do this.
> 
> So, fair warning to stop and get back on topic or
> 
> I'm telling mom!!!


You keep mentioning Ron Paul and then whining when the conversation charts a new course.

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## Guest

> You keep mentioning Ron Paul and then whining when the conversation charts a new course.


An ancillary mention doth not a thread troll make.  The thread is about the Hegelian dialectic and any attempt to discuss it turns into something else entirely.  If you don't stop I'll make a second thread with all the same posts about the topic and leave you and Dan40 here.

Not sure Trinnity would appreciate that.

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## Guest

> And so you back an ineffective idiot like Ron Paul that could not and cannot win an election outside his Galveston district.  A man with a 30 year career of accomplishing nothing in Congress.  That's your answer?
> 
> You cannot overcome power with stupidity.


And btw, SaintMike ^^^^ Here is where Ron Paul was FIRST mentioned in this thread.  Not by ME.  So...take that 'tude somewhere else.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> We are going to have to come up with some crazy viral video, I swear.


How about one of Stalin fucking a bald eagle with Obama's face on it?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> List the LAWS that Paul sponsored and got passed.
> 
> Who did he raise the awareness of, the stupid?  What GOOD has come of it?  We still have the Fed operating exactly as it has for all of the 30 years Paul fought it.  It still has the same audit that he fought 30 years to change, unsuccessfully.  We still have no term limits that he unsuccessfully fought to change his whole career.
> 
> I have no problem with the good things Paul tried to do.  But I have no respect for 30 years of utter failure.  UTTER FAILURE, not a single one of his major issues ever came close to being law.  NONE DID.  Over 700 tries,,,,,,,,,,,,ZERO results.  That is not a hero, that's an incompetent.


It's because the system is stacked against him. It's not his fault Harry Reid is a tyrant and our government does not stand for freedom.

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## The XL

> How about one of Stalin fucking a bald eagle with Obama's face on it?


Lmfao.

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## Calypso Jones

> You're thinking about this wrong. You think "conservative" and in your head you think about "conservatives" like you and your neighbor down the street. There is a vast difference between you and a progressive in ideology and goals. HUGE difference.
> 
> In Washington they move towards the same globalist, statist design. Left angled forward step...pause....right angled forward step....pause...left angled forward step...pause...right angled forward step. Democrats and Republicans both are members of the CFR. Both attend Bilderberg meetings. Both have stock in international corporations. Both have ties to international banking. Both parties have used the tag "New World Order" starting in the 1980s.
> 
> It is not about left or right anymore. It is about the statists and you.
> 
> Tell me, when was the last time anyone in government voted to return powers or rights to the people?
> 
> 
> Exactly.



i don't disagree with you on your analysis of conservatives....but that wasn't the point.  The point was to explain this form of manipulation and i think i did that period.     It was done to us on global warming it is being done again on this Newtown Massacre.   If we keep failing to draw a line we can expect complete and utter slavery to the gov't in the next four years to this bastard.

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## Guest

> i don't disagree with you on your analysis of conservatives....but that wasn't the point.  The point was to explain this form of manipulation and i think i did that period.     It was done to us on global warming it is being done again on this Newtown Massacre.   If we keep failing to draw a line we can expect complete and utter slavery to the gov't in the next four years to this bastard.


Thats another example, yep.  You have people on both sides of the aisle voting for solutions even though they don't know what it really means.  We feel that we're lucky because we're not anywhere near as extreme on the issue as other countries, but...we're still stepping forward.

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## Irascible Crusader

> An ancillary mention doth not a thread troll make.  The thread is about the Hegelian dialectic and any attempt to discuss it turns into something else entirely.  If you don't stop I'll make a second thread with all the same posts about the topic and leave you and Dan40 here.
> 
> Not sure Trinnity would appreciate that.


You're going to have a lot more fun around here as soon as you realize that you can't control other people.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Lmfao.


That would go viral  :Tongue:

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## Guest

> You're going to have a lot more fun around here as soon as you realize that you can't control other people.


We have a few posters, Mike.  When I go to the trouble of typing out hoardes of crap I don't want it to derail.  It's just rude.  Dan40 started with the Ron Paul shit because it was my thread, no other reason.  That is TROLLING.  Trolling is against the rules.

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## Irascible Crusader

> We have a few posters, Mike.  When I go to the trouble of typing out hoardes of crap I don't want it to derail.  It's just rude.  Dan40 started with the Ron Paul shit because it was my thread, no other reason.  That is TROLLING.  Trolling is against the rules.


Conversation drift is not trolling and you can't control what happens to your thread.  If it doesn't stay on topic, it might be a clue to you that the OP wasn't engaging to begin with.  Remember that just because it's important to you doesn't mean it's important to everyone.  I've created plenty of threads that were time consuming and in the end nobody cared and it sank.  I've learned to consider it fortunate that any thread of mine goes on for page after page no matter what's being discussed on it.  You should too.  Because if you expect the moderator to micromanage your threads, you're on the wrong forum.

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## Guest

> Conversation drift is not trolling and you can't control what happens to your thread.  If it doesn't stay on topic, it might be a clue to you that the OP wasn't engaging to begin with.  Remember that just because it's important to you doesn't mean it's important to everyone.  I've created plenty of threads that were time consuming and in the end nobody cared and it sank.  I've learned to consider it fortunate that any thread of mine goes on for page after page no matter what's being discussed on it.  You should too.  Because if you expect the moderator to micromanage your threads, you're on the wrong forum.


This is conversation drift.  He was trolling.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Conversation drift is not trolling and you can't control what happens to your thread.  If it doesn't stay on topic, it might be a clue to you that the OP wasn't engaging to begin with.  Remember that just because it's important to you doesn't mean it's important to everyone.  I've created plenty of threads that were time consuming and in the end nobody cared and it sank.  I've learned to consider it fortunate that any thread of mine goes on for page after page no matter what's being discussed on it.  You should too.  Because if you expect the moderator to micromanage your threads, you're on the wrong forum.


No, Dan's a troll.

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The XL (01-11-2013)

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## Dan40

> It's because the system is stacked against him. It's not his fault Harry Reid is a tyrant and our government does not stand for freedom.


Asinine worship of a complete failure.  Reid is an equal bum, but Paul was in Congress 10 years before Reid and Paul was in Congress 20 years before Reid became majority leader.  If you have to make excuses for your non-heroic failure, make an effort to make a good, or at least a decent excuse.  LAME is thy NAME!

But that is the world today, REWARD complete mediocrity and failure, and vilify achievement and success.  No wonder there is a Paul and no wonder usama is the president, and no wonder the nation is in the shitter.

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## Guest

> Asinine worship of a complete failure.  Reid is an equal bum, but Paul was in Congress 10 years before Reid and Paul was in Congress 20 years before Reid became majority leader.  If you have to make excuses for your non-heroic failure, make an effort to make a good, or at least a decent excuse.  LAME is thy NAME!
> 
> But that is the world today, REWARD complete mediocrity and failure, and vilify achievement and success.  No wonder there is a Paul and no wonder usama is the president, and no wonder the nation is in the shitter.


^^Case and point.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Asinine worship of a complete failure.  Reid is an equal bum, but Paul was in Congress 10 years before Reid and Paul was in Congress 20 years before Reid became majority leader.  If you have to make excuses for your non-heroic failure, make an effort to make a good, or at least a decent excuse.  LAME is thy NAME!
> 
> But that is the world today, REWARD complete mediocrity and failure, and vilify achievement and success.  No wonder there is a Paul and no wonder usama is the president, and no wonder the nation is in the shitter.


Don't you have a bridge to sit under?

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The XL (01-11-2013)

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## Irascible Crusader

> No, Dan's a troll.


Looks like it's turning into a "hate Dan" thread by people who are lacking in maturity.  Dan isn't a troll. I'm not a troll, even though I've been called one here, and you can't control thread drift. If you don't like what he's saying, you don't have to respond to it.  I find it telling that any negative remark about Ron Paul gets a rise out of you and Zosiasmom because you're still so beholden to yesterday's failures.  I noted this in my first Branch Paulinian thread.  My advice to you two is if you don't want the thread to be about Ron Paul then don't mention him and don't acknowledge references to him.  I already know my advice will be ignored.  You two just can't help yourselves.

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## Guest

> Looks like it's turning into a "hate Dan" thread by people who are lacking in maturity.  Dan isn't a troll. I'm not a troll, even though I've been called one here, and you can't control thread drift. If you don't like what he's saying, you don't have to respond to it.  I find it telling that any negative remark about Ron Paul gets a rise out of you and Zosiasmom because you're still so beholden to yesterday's failures.  I noted this in my first Branch Paulinian thread.  My advice to you two is if you don't want the thread to be about Ron Paul then don't mention him and don't acknowledge references to him.  I already know my advice will be ignored.  You two just can't help yourselves.


It is only turning into a giant off topic discussion because you and Dan won't stop regardless of how many times I've tried to redirect it back on topic.  Your whole post is irony in spades.

Now, what do you think of the Hegelian Dialectic?  This is a direct question to steer us back on topic.

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## Irascible Crusader

> It is only turning into a giant off topic discussion because you and Dan won't stop regardless of how many times I've tried to redirect it back on topic.  Your whole post is irony in spades.
> 
> Now, what do you think of the Hegelian Dialectic?  This is a direct question to steer us back on topic.


I don't care.  That's what you don't understand.  Your OP is not engaging and you're placing the blame for that elsewhere.

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## Guest

> I don't care.  That's what you don't understand.  Your OP is not engaging and you're placing the blame for that elsewhere.


I place no blame anywhere.  Those of us interested were talking about it.  I recognize that this is a topic that our little group finds interesting and Trinnity is nice enough to humor us with space.  

If the topic is uninteresting to you go elsewhere, don't be a hypocrite and continue to post bullshit on this thread.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I place no blame anywhere. Those of us interested were talking about it. I recognize that this is a topic that our little group finds interesting and Trinnity is nice enough to humor us with space. 
> If the topic is uninteresting to you go elsewhere, don't be a hypocrite and continue to post bullshit on this thread.


You still don't get it.  You don't control what or where I post and you don't control that for Dan either.  It's frustrating for you, I can see, because it's clear you like to control people.  You can't.

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## Guest

> You still don't get it.  You don't control what or where I post and you don't control that for Dan either.  It's frustrating for you, I can see, because it's clear you like to control people.  You can't.


Absolutely not.  You don't see the difference because of your obtuseness.  I've asked politely and suggested what you may do.  You refuse to do it because there aren't enough liberals on here to pester so you choose to fight with TRAT and I.  It would be one thing if we had an actual TOPIC to fight over.

This petty shit makes me want to go back to politcal forum because it does not engage my brain in the least and just makes me irritated.  I asked first politely that we stay on topic and both of you continue to troll.  If we cannot RESPECT each other enough to NOT troll...what's the point?

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## Irascible Crusader

> Absolutely not.  You don't see the difference because of your obtuseness.  I've asked politely and suggested what you may do.  You refuse to do it because there aren't enough liberals on here to pester so you choose to fight with TRAT and I.  It would be one thing if we had an actual TOPIC to fight over.
> 
> This petty shit makes me want to go back to politcal forum because it does not engage my brain in the least and just makes me irritated.  I asked first politely that we stay on topic and both of you continue to troll.  If we cannot RESPECT each other enough to NOT troll...what's the point?


Threatening to go back to political forums if we don't treat you nicer is manipulation.  Maybe you should go back there for a while because you seem to have forgotten what real trolling is.  One thing is for certain, you refuse to accept responsibility for not communicating the concepts you wish to get across in an engaging and easily digestable manner.  You're blaming everyone but yourself.  Your OP is a failure, just like I've written threads that failed as well.  But I accepted responsibility for it, didn't blame others, and learned from it.  All of my fast and furious threads sunk like a lead raft.  It was very important to me, but not to others and perhaps I didn't lay it out such manner as to capture the imagination of others.  Read your OP again, and maybe you'll see what I do.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Looks like it's turning into a "hate Dan" thread by people who are lacking in maturity.  Dan isn't a troll.


I don't hate Dan. I've seen him say smart things that I agree with. But for some reason, the man has a hard-on for shitting on Ron Paul. A thread doesn't even have to mention Ron Paul, like this one. It just has to be posted by someone who may only slightly like Ron Paul, and here he comes repeating the same, tired old crap that has been discussed a million times over. That's trolling. I really don't give a shit if you agree or not. You get your rocks off of picking at mine and Zos' nerves and defend Dan because he does an even better job at it.

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## Guest

> Threatening to go back to political forums if we don't treat you nicer is manipulation.


Not a manipulation.  I get bored and this is just fucking boring.  It is really droll, banal and B-O-R-I-N-G.  I want to discuss THINGS.  Not quibble about the same shit over and over.  It's not high school.

I asked politely if you would stop.  I don't know what else to do.

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## Paperback Writer

> Not a manipulation.  I get bored and this is just fucking boring.  It is really droll, banal and B-O-R-I-N-G.  I want to discuss THINGS.  Not quibble about the same shit over and over.  It's not high school.
> 
> I asked politely if you would stop.  I don't know what else to do.


Put him on ignore and ask me if I'll discuss the topic.  I'd be happy to (unlike other mates who never bother to make an appearance).   :Smile:

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## Dan40

> Don't you have a bridge to sit under?


You make the lame ass excuses for a failure, not me.  Don't you have a diaper to change?

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## Paperback Writer

> You make the lame ass excuses for a failure, not me.  Don't you have a diaper to change?


You're not getting any, are you?  Too much buildup can make a man narky.

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## Irascible Crusader

> You're not getting any, are you? Too much buildup can make a man narky.


Well that explains a lot for you too, by that standard.

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## Paperback Writer

> Well that explains a lot for you too, by that standard.


I'm the only one who's been polite, sos I don't see how you can make that arguement.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I'm the only one who's been polite, sos I don't see how you can make that arguement.


  Your previous post being an example of that?  You're full of shit is what you are.

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## The XL

> You still don't get it.  You don't control what or where I post and you don't control that for Dan either.  It's frustrating for you, I can see, because it's clear you like to control people.  You can't.


Politely asking someone not to troll a thread isn't trying to "control people."  Sheesh.

----------


## The XL

> You make the lame ass excuses for a failure, not me.  Don't you have a diaper to change?


Do you even understand how our political system works?  Serious question.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Politely asking someone not to troll a thread isn't trying to "control people."  Sheesh.


OK.

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## Paperback Writer

> Well that explains a lot for you too, by that standard.


I'll not lie.  Don't much like him.  He's had fuck all nice to say to my mate and I don't like that.  You got a problem with that position?

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## Irascible Crusader

> I'll not lie.  Don't much like him.  He's had fuck all nice to say to my mate and I don't like that.  You got a problem with that position?


I have a problem with you claiming to be polite after a glaring example to the contrary.  Such shameless duplicity hardly constitutes a position.

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## Paperback Writer

> I have a problem with you claiming to be polite after a glaring example to the contrary.  Such shameless duplicity hardly constitutes a position.


I've been polite to most people, but when you can't be civil I don't see the need to continue.  What's your excuse?

----------


## Guest

> I've been polite to most people, but when you can't be civil I don't see the need to continue.  What's your excuse?


He lives to argue with TRAT and I.  We could all be in agreement and he'd still find something wrong with us.  Don't worry about it, Boo.

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## Dan40

> Do you even understand how our political system works?  Serious question.


I understand perfectly how our system works and how it was designed to work.  Evidently Paul and Paulobots are completely clueless as to the steel clad necessity for coalitions and compromises.  That IS how the system does work and how it was designed to work.  No one ever thought 30 years of ineffectual dreaming was how the system works, except,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ineffectual dreamers.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I've been polite to most people, but when you can't be civil I don't see the need to continue.  What's your excuse?


I don't need an excuse. I never claimed to be nice or polite.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> I understand perfectly how our system works and how it was designed to work.  Evidently Paul and Paulobots are completely clueless as to the steel clad necessity for coalitions and compromises.  That IS how the system does work and how it was designed to work.  No one ever thought 30 years of ineffectual dreaming was how the system works, except,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ineffectual dreamers.


That's the one thing that Paul and the Branch Paulinian cult can be rightly accused of, having a naive and entirely unrealistic vision of a perfect society where there is no government because nobody exploits or harms others and everyone lives in a commune thinking peaceful thoughts and getting along.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> That's the one thing that Paul and the Branch Paulinian cult can be rightly accused of, having a naive and entirely unrealistic vision of a perfect society where there is no government because nobody exploits or harms others and everyone lives in a commune thinking peaceful thoughts and getting along.


I'm sorry, I thought heaven was what us believers in G-d were supposed to look forward to.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I'm sorry, I thought heaven was what us believers in G-d were supposed to look forward to.


The Bible predicts that Christ will one day rule all nations with an iron sceptor.  Until that day, attempting to impose utopia, like with communism, has only resulted in death, hardship, poverty, and suffering.  The Christian looks forward to a perfect government under Christ and until then we deal with the realities of governments today as a necessary evil.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> The Bible predicts that Christ will one day rule all nations with an iron sceptor.  Until that day, attempting to impose utopia, like with communism, has only resulted in death, hardship, poverty, and suffering.  The Christian looks forward to a perfect government under Christ and until then we deal with the realities of governments today as a necessary evil.


The Jew accepts the idea of _tikkun olam_. It is our duty to repair/heal the world.

----------

