# Politics and News > Rants, Opinions, Observations >  Boy Scout Gay Scoutmaster Rule Change Prompted by Business Not Government

## Guest

http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/28/bo...gays-a-victory




> The ban has survived years of external pressure and a Supreme Court decision from 2000 that allowed the exclusion of gay scouts under the First Amendment. But now pressure is being applied much more firmly from within  not just from gay members, but from whole chapters and  corporate sponsors:
>  Two corporate CEOs on BSAs national board, Randall Stephenson of AT&T and James Turley of Ernst & Young, have also said they would work to end the ban. Stephenson is next in line to be the BSAs national chairman. 
>  About 50 local United Way groups and several corporations and charities have concluded that the ban violates their non-discrimination requirements and have ceased providing financial aid to the Boy Scouts. An official of The Human Rights Campaign, an advocate for gay rights, said HRC planned to downgrade its non-discrimination ratings for corporations that continue to give the BSA financial support.
>  Its an extremely complex issue, said one Boy Scouts of America official, who explained that other organizations have threatened to withdraw their financial support if the BSA drops the ban.


Okay, now that we know that this didn't come from Obama, the SCOTUS, or Holder, but because corporations wanted them to end the ban...is it now okay?

Remember...corporations pressured them to end their ban on gay scoutmasters and corporations are awesome, give us jobs, and whatever it is that is said on threads to justify them skirting US taxes and wage laws by hiring little kids and forcing convicts to work for them.

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## The XL

C.r.e.a.m.

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## Guest

I think that this proved that, yes, corporations and private industry can govern in the absence of a state.  Look how these corporate sponsors got the BSA to cave where the SCOTUS could not.

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## Calypso Jones

Hold yer horses there.  Nothing has been decided.   They stand to lose either way...or win depending on how you look at it.   They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.    We won't know till next week.

AND they're going to leave it up to local chapters or whatever...so those areas where it's a resounding No, will be no and those areas who don't mind their little boys buggered will get what they want.

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Irascible Crusader (01-29-2013)

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## Guest

> Hold yer horses there.  Nothing has been decided.   They stand to lose either way...or win depending on how you look at it.   They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.    We won't know till next week.
> 
> AND they're going to leave it up to local chapters or whatever...so those areas where it's a resounding No, will be no and those areas who don't mind their little boys buggered will get what they want.


Right, but the point is that not even the SCOTUS or government was the means by which they changed social policy--this is the argument of progressives, that government is needed to correct societal ills, like homophobia.

The BSA was pressured by private industry to change and they are knuckling to the desires of sponsors.  This proves that government is not needed to make change.  Just business and people pressure.

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Trinnity (01-28-2013)

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## Trinnity

It's sad. Scouts is based on high moral standards and faith in God (they don't say which god). They held those standards for 200 years and are a private organization. Remember, people want to know their son is not being molested or bullied by any adult or other scout. Where does that leave the Scouts? 

Either way they were screwed: get sued for not letting gays in or get sued for letting kids be around someone who might take advantage of them. I have 2 sons in Scouts. I wouldn't want to have to worry about them on a camping trip. Fortunately for me they're 15 and 17 now and if anyone tried anything, that person would get  the crap beat out of them. LOL

The Scouting organization has very solid protocols in place that do not allow a child to be alone with an adult leader. This is all very complicated. 

Putting the decision on the individual troops and packs seems to me to be shifting the responsibility to the individual troop/pack. Interesting in a legal sense. What do you think Rinny?

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OceanloverOH (01-28-2013)

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## Guest

I think that private organizations should be allowed to discriminate, businesses, too, and that it is up to we the people to decide whether we want to buy or support an organization that does so.  I don't believe black photographers should be forced to take pictures of a Klan rally, that Catholics should be forced to sell birth control, or that the BSA should be forced to have gay scoutmasters.

I think this was appropriate.  Society and the marketplace made a determination, not government force.

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OceanloverOH (01-28-2013)

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## Trinnity

But what do you think of the slick maneuver of buffering the legal responsibility by putting the decision on the shoulders of the individual troop/pack, Rinny?

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## Roadmaster

I am not PC about this at all. Don't think an organization should have to bend it's rules and they should keep fighting.

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birddog (01-28-2013)

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## Guest

> But what do you think of the slick maneuver of buffering the legal responsibility by putting the decision on the shoulders of the individual troop/pack, Rinny?


Well, at that point there won't be a legal responsibility since there is no "ban" and the courts have favored the Boy Scouts in the past with allowance.  What they also succeeded in doing is making it so that they may continue to use public lands without the ACLU jumping up their ass because now they are open to all races and/or orientations.

It was pretty slick, actually.

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## Guest

> I am not PC about this at all. Don't think an organization should have to bend it's rules and they should keep fighting.


They weren't forced to do anything.  They won the SCOTUS case.  The point to the article is that they yielded to the pressures of *businesses.*  Meaning, the marketplace made the decision.

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## Trinnity

> It was pretty slick, actually.


Brilliant, really.

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## Roadmaster

> They weren't forced to do anything.  They won the SCOTUS case.  The point to the article is that they yielded to the pressures of *businesses.*  Meaning, the marketplace made the decision.


Well they will loose many just like the girl scouts that now allow boys claiming they are trapped in a boys body in but a girl. They could get other businesses to support them. Just like the Catholics that tell the priest it's ok to be gay but just don't act on it. They have the worst record with children. Is it the gay ones doing this who really knows? I don't trust any man with a child alone. They should always have more than one.

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## OceanloverOH

This whole thing reeks.  BSA is a Christian-run organization.  As such, they should be able to determine what is and isn't appropriate.  I've been a Den Leader for Cub Scouts when my son was small....the Scoutmaster is an almost-revered masculine role model for little boys....and even more so for the bigger boys once they're in Boy Scouts.  Saturday Night Live did a parody of this situation once, with Alec Baldwin....and it was hilarious because it was so far-fetched (it's not available, or I'd post it).  Not so far-fetched these days, and that's a shame.

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## Archer

Well I now have zero respect for the scouts. If money sways them then they never believed in their principals in the first place.

Fuck the BSA and fuck all those bastard militant people that try and force their views by the use of courts and money!

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Kabuki Joe (01-29-2013)

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## kk8

> But what do you think of the slick maneuver of buffering the legal responsibility by putting the decision on the shoulders of the individual troop/pack, Rinny?


More protesting will be needed by the wacko gay rights people.....they will be at every church who says no to gays in the troops that they support.  Just one more way to get America to be on different sides and angry.

I really don't understand why gay people have never formed their OWN clubs....way not?

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## Roadmaster

> Well I now have zero respect for the scouts. If money sways them then they never believed in their principals in the first place.
> 
> Fuck the BSA and fuck all those bastard militant people that try and force their views by the use of courts and money!


The businesses are playing games. What they want is that the chapters not accepting this to keep sending their kids to bring in revenue while they get other chapters to accept this. If all would not send their children it would send a message. Don't be fooled by these chess games and keep your child out this coming year.

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## kk8

> This whole thing reeks.  BSA is a Christian-run organization.  As such, they should be able to determine what is and isn't appropriate.  I've been a Den Leader for Cub Scouts when my son was small....the Scoutmaster is an almost-revered masculine role model for little boys....and even more so for the bigger boys once they're in Boy Scouts.  Saturday Night Live did a parody of this situation once, with Alec Baldwin....and it was hilarious because it was so far-fetched (it's not available, or I'd post it).  Not so far-fetched these days, and that's a shame.

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## kilgram

> I think that this proved that, yes, corporations and private industry can govern in the absence of a state.  Look how these corporate sponsors got the BSA to cave where the SCOTUS could not.


And this would prove my thesis that anarchocapitalism is a new tiranny.

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## kilgram

> I think that private organizations should be allowed to discriminate, businesses, too, and that it is up to we the people to decide whether we want to buy or support an organization that does so.  I don't believe black photographers should be forced to take pictures of a Klan rally, that Catholics should be forced to sell birth control, or that the BSA should be forced to have gay scoutmasters.
> 
> I think this was appropriate.  Society and the marketplace made a determination, not government force.


Discrimination is good, let's discriminate the blacks and make centers only for blacks. And why not, let's discriminate gays and make centers only for them. And why not let's continue discriminating, the women should not be able to go to the same places as men, so let's separate, I must be able to discriminate conservative people, I don't like them, so I won't accept conservative in my organization. And well, let's continue with the discrimination, the liberals cannot go to that market because is only conservative and libertarian. Why not? As individual or corporation we can discriminate, and fuck on all the human rights. Why care for the human rights? And if we don't care for the human rights, why not expand this to make legal the rape or the murder in vengeance. It is freedom.

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## patrickt

Of course, I didn't take the poll. As polls go, it was terrible.

I think the BSA can do as they please. If board members want to lobby for gays in the scouts, that's their right, too. If other board members want to chuck the two board members, fine. There is no evidence this is a decision made by those evil corporations that provide us with goods and services unless you want to count the Boy Scouts as a corporation.

When I was working we were interviewing applicants for police officers. After one interview the four staff members discussed the applicant and agreed he was outstanding, except, as the chief pointed out, "He's gay."

"My god, are we hiring people to fuck?" Of course, we weren't. We discussed the issue at length and decided we could hire gays. The only time we had a problem was when we hired a gay that was way in the closet. She had a problem with gays. That was it. I'm sure a lot of people at work didn't socialize with gays and that's their business. We also had rules pertaining to off-duty activities. For example, you could not lead the gay pride day parade in your police car on your day off. Another officer couldn't drive his patrol car in Right-to-Life marches on his day off.

So, if the scouts decide to have gays in the scouts and have appropriate rules for them I don't have a problem with this.

FWIW, we had one employee lose his job over activity that involved him being gay. We had a half-dozen who lost their job or were disciplined over activity that involved them being heterosexual. We had more who should have been but either weren't caught or skated.

The BSA and gays is an interesting issue but it's a poor platform to attack the evil corporations.

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## Trinnity

> Well I now have zero respect for the scouts. If money sways them then they never believed in their principals in the first place.
> 
> Fuck the BSA and fuck all those bastard militant people that try and force their views by the use of courts and money!


This is what I mean^

No matter what they did, someone was gonna be mad. It was an untenable position. The left won this battle, imo. But I can tell you nothing will change for most troops/packs. In most of America, gay boys are not seeking to be in scouts.

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Irascible Crusader (01-29-2013)

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## kilgram

> This is what I mean^
> 
> No matter what they did, someone was gonna be mad. It was an untenable position. The left won this battle, imo. But I can tell you nothing will change for most troops/packs. In most of America, gay boys are not seeking to be in scouts.


If a boy wants to be in scouts he must be able to go, whatever his sexual preferences. However, I don't know who today want to be part of that thingy? And thingy to be respectful and a bit moderate.

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## garyo

I'm not a Gay rights activist but, Almost all pedophiles are heterosexual (2/3rds) and I don't remember sexual orientation being a topic when I was a scout.
This is from the Family research institute.

About  a third of    the reports of molestation by the populace have involved  homosexuality. Likewise,    between a fifth and a third of those who  have been caught and/or convicted practiced    homosexuality. Finally, a  fifth to a third of surveyed gays admitted to child    molestation.  All-in-all, a rather consistent story.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/20...mosexuality-2/

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## Kabuki Joe

> http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/28/bo...gays-a-victory
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, now that we know that this didn't come from Obama, the SCOTUS, or Holder, but because corporations wanted them to end the ban...is it now okay?
> 
> Remember...corporations pressured them to end their ban on gay scoutmasters and corporations are awesome, give us jobs, and whatever it is that is said on threads to justify them skirting US taxes and wage laws by hiring little kids and forcing convicts to work for them.



...I find it funny that libs hate corporations yet corporations are the best tools for pushing the liberals agenda...


Kabuki Joe

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## Guest

> ...I find it funny that libs hate corporations yet corporations are the best tools for pushing the liberals agenda...
> 
> 
> Kabuki Joe



I find it funny that people actually believe they hate corporations.  They hate corporations the way men hate porn.

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WalterSobchak (02-01-2013)

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## Irascible Crusader

> Well they will loose many just like the girl scouts that now allow boys claiming they are trapped in a boys body in but a girl. They could get other businesses to support them. Just like the Catholics that tell the priest it's ok to be gay but just don't act on it. They have the worst record with children. Is it the gay ones doing this who really knows? I don't trust any man with a child alone. They should always have more than one.


Where do you get your information?  For the last 20 years, the Catholic Church has expressly forbidden those with homosexual attractions to enter the priesthood in the wake of the abuse scandal.  Please stop making things up, it's embarassing and impious.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Discrimination is good, let's discriminate the blacks and make centers only for blacks. And why not, let's discriminate gays and make centers only for them. And why not let's continue discriminating, the women should not be able to go to the same places as men, so let's separate, I must be able to discriminate conservative people, I don't like them, so I won't accept conservative in my organization. And well, let's continue with the discrimination, the liberals cannot go to that market because is only conservative and libertarian. Why not? As individual or corporation we can discriminate, and fuck on all the human rights. Why care for the human rights? And if we don't care for the human rights, why not expand this to make legal the rape or the murder in vengeance. It is freedom.


Anti discrimination laws apply to government and to private sector employers, not to private clubs and non profits such as BSA.  Your desire to impose political correctness on them is what's amiss here.  They have the right to promote moral and straight living and to champion the family as God intended it to be.  And if some corporations want to punish them for it by cutting back on donations, I recommend they tighten their belt and do without.  When one door is closed, God always opens another.

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Trinnity (01-29-2013)

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## Irascible Crusader

Oh, and your hack poll is stupid, scripted, and agenda driven.  You're a tool, Rina.

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## Guest

> Oh, and your hack poll is stupid, scripted, and agenda driven.  You're a tool, Rina.


You must know, Mike, I did it...for you.  I did it for you!

*covers eyes dramatically*

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## Calypso Jones

Why is it necessary for businesses to put their two cents in and influence another organization one way or another.  BSA has always been for christian values, so either contribute or don't.   Or better yet, do they raise decent men?  Then shut up about their policies.  As long as they don't condone murder and mayhem, what the hell.

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Irascible Crusader (01-29-2013),Kabuki Joe (01-29-2013),Trinnity (01-29-2013)

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## Guest

> Why is it necessary for businesses to put their two cents in and influence another organization one way or another.  BSA has always been for christian values, so either contribute or don't.   Or better yet, do they raise decent men?  Then shut up about their policies.  As long as they don't condone murder and mayhem, what the hell.


Would you rather it be businesses or the government?

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## Calypso Jones

I'd rather  be independently wealthy...but business would be preferable.. but my remark still stands.    If you're a businessman then mind your own business and let organizations mind theirs.

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Kabuki Joe (01-30-2013),Trinnity (01-29-2013)

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## Guest

> I'd rather  be independently wealthy...but business would be preferable.. but my remark still stands.    If you're a businessman then mind your own business and let organizations mind theirs.


I just think that this proves that we don't need the state to keep people "in line".  We are more motivated by money than fear.  BSA took on the SCOTUS but it was a lack of sponsors that made them change their mind.

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## Calypso Jones

They haven't changed their minds yet.   And It made people buy BS popcorn which in my opinion is pretty good.    Other businesses say that they'll not contribute if BS caves to the pro-homo group.    We'll just see.

I see what you say but i don't necessarily think it's a good thing all the time.    Do you see anyone threatening the funding of GLAAD or GLSEN or the Pedo group which i have temporarily forgo.....NAMBLA.  Freaks.

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## Guest

> They haven't changed their minds yet.   And It made people buy BS popcorn which in my opinion is pretty good.    Other businesses say that they'll not contribute if BS caves to the pro-homo group.    We'll just see.
> 
> I see what you say but i don't necessarily think it's a good thing all the time.    Do you see anyone threatening the funding of GLAAD or GLSEN or the Pedo group which i have temporarily forgo.....NAMBLA.  Freaks.


They could though is the point.

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## Roadmaster

> I'm not a Gay rights activist but, Almost all pedophiles are heterosexual (2/3rds) and I don't remember sexual orientation being a topic when I was a scout.
> This is from the Family research institute.
> 
> About  a third of    the reports of molestation by the populace have involved  homosexuality. Likewise,    between a fifth and a third of those who  have been caught and/or convicted practiced    homosexuality. Finally, a  fifth to a third of surveyed gays admitted to child    molestation.  All-in-all, a rather consistent story.
> 
> http://www.familyresearchinst.org/20...mosexuality-2/


But if you question the ones in prison you will get another. Most of them admitted they had been molested by a gay man at a young age. It depends on who is doing the research. I say both needs to be watched but gay men do like young men. I wouldn't put mine in the troops right now just like I would not trust one man I didn't know to watch or control my kids.

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## Calypso Jones

Tell me, mothers and fathers.  Are you comfy letting your 14/15 year old son go on a weekend campout with  several poofter scout leaders?     Well, why not?   Lesbians have infiltrated the girl scouts and no one seems to care.

So what's next.  Male Girl Scout leaders to take your young woman To the GS Jamboree?

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Irascible Crusader (01-29-2013),Kabuki Joe (01-30-2013)

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## Guest

I know a lot of gay men and I know none that like kids or any I wouldn't trust with a kid.  If I had to make a "stereotype" of all the gays I know it would be that they like, well, rough, manly "straight" guys.  They say they don't/won't hit on straight guys, but google "straight guy crush" sometime.  They want straight guys, not straight kids.

They want MEN they way we women want MEN.

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## The XL

A guy dude isn't likely going to make an advance on an unwilling minor.

And what heterosexual 15 year old would sleep with a gay guy anyway?

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## Guest

> A guy dude isn't likely going to make an advance on an unwilling minor.
> 
> And what heterosexual 15 year old would sleep with a gay guy anyway?


If I wanted your opinion on this, crackah, I woulda solicited it from you.  Got dat?

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The XL (01-29-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Where do you get your information?  For the last 20 years, the Catholic Church has expressly forbidden those with homosexual attractions to enter the priesthood in the wake of the abuse scandal.  Please stop making things up, it's embarassing and impious.


This is true. I think she may have confused the RCC with the Episcopalians.

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Irascible Crusader (01-29-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I know a lot of gay men and I know none that like kids or any I wouldn't trust with a kid.  If I had to make a "stereotype" of all the gays I know it would be that they like, well, rough, manly "straight" guys.  They say they don't/won't hit on straight guys, but google "straight guy crush" sometime.  They want straight guys, not straight kids.
> 
> They want MEN they way we women want MEN.


This. I'm bi, I've dated a couple guys here and there (le gasp!), but being a generally tough outdoorsy guy, the two guys I dated were more feminine. But they were my age, never little kids. That's just sick.

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## Guest

> This. I'm bi, I've dated a couple guys here and there (le gasp!), but being a generally tough outdoorsy guy, the two guys I dated were more feminine. But they were my age, never little kids. That's just sick.


See, when you say "outdoorsy" I picture you barefooted in a green cape.  That's your fault.   :Big Grin:

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> See, when you say "outdoorsy" I picture you barefooted in a green cape.  That's your fault.


And why do you picture that? Just curious  :Big Grin:

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## Guest

> And why do you picture that? Just curious


Because you mentioned to me before what I saw what you look like that you were Hobbit-esqe and that image stuck.  I can't think of you without thinking of Frodo.

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garyo (01-29-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Because you mentioned to me before what I saw what you look like that you were Hobbit-esqe and that image stuck.  I can't think of you without thinking of Frodo.


Lol. Well, I don't mind that  :Tongue:

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## Roadmaster

> A guy dude isn't likely going to make an advance on an unwilling minor.
> 
> And what heterosexual 15 year old would sleep with a gay guy anyway?


That's not true. Because one of my brother-in-laws is gay, I know many that are. They do hit on young men. I love my BIL and he doesn't but he will even warn people of them. A 15 year old that they will buy beer, ect for. He went after one of his friends that tried to lure a young man. I don't hate gay people but you have to watch all men.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I know a lot of gay men and I know none that like kids or any I wouldn't trust with a kid.  If I had to make a "stereotype" of all the gays I know it would be that they like, well, rough, manly "straight" guys.  They say they don't/won't hit on straight guys, but google "straight guy crush" sometime.  They want straight guys, not straight kids.
> 
> They want MEN they way we women want MEN.


I think the part being missed is that _openly gay_ men want to be scoutmasters.  In other words, they want to flaunt it.  Until DADT was repealed by the Magic Negro, you could serve in the military if you were gay, you simply kept your mouth shut about your sexual orientation.  Same goes with the scouts, but that's not good enough for the militant homosexual agenda.  They want to gay it up and expose young minds to their outlandish gyrations and eccentricities, hoping to gain converts.  It's sick, the kind of fags who want to do this, not the Brokeback Mountain type that you would never guess were gay, but the effeminate fruitcakes that make sure you know their gay within 10 seconds or less.  

How can you be for this?  Does being Catholic mean nothing to you?  We're called to be _radically counter-cultural_ but I don't see you fighting the slide into depravity in any way.  In fact you cheer it on.

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## Irascible Crusader

> A guy dude isn't likely going to make an advance on an unwilling minor.
> 
> And what heterosexual 15 year old would sleep with a gay guy anyway?


I think you mean a gay dude and you have no way of knowing that.  Pederasty and homosexuality is separated only by an arbitrary number of 18.  It's why Chris Hansen does his "To Catch A Predator" sting and men, heterosexual men, drive sometimes for hundreds of miles to have sex with an underage girl.  They just line up for it.  The common denominator in both cases is perversion and perversion, like water, restlessly seeks lower ground.  It's not to say that some homosexual men don't have scruples. I'm sure that some do.  But an immoral lifestyle will eventually lend itself to further debths of depravity.

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Kabuki Joe (01-30-2013)

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## patrickt

I went back and read the OP again. There is nothing to indicate the two CEOs are representing anything other than their personal beliefs. There is no indication that the boards of these corporations directed these CEOs to take the positions they did. When I was working, I was often taking positions concerning gays that did not please the Chief of Police but he didn't object to me having an opinion and taking a position.

Having a job does not necessarily equate to "representing" a corporation in every position you take.

In a sense we are all victims of prejudice against gays. I had a friend who was getting married because people were wondering if he were gay. One police chief I worked for was 45 and had never been married. The Gay Alliance kept inviting him to various functions and he asked me to explain to them that he couldn't attend. And, when my son was in the military a roommate was thrown out of the military for something that happened at the bus depot. The investigators called my son in for an interrogation. He called me and was mad that his roommate got him in trouble. It was the roommate it was the policy and the investigators. When Sean went in he immediately pointed out the the roommate had been assigned to his room, wasn't a friend of his, and there were no questions that needed answering. 

It's all sad.

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## Guest

> I think the part being missed is that _openly gay_ men want to be scoutmasters.


You mean like RuPaul's Scout Race?




> In other words, they want to flaunt it.  Until DADT was repealed by the Magic Negro, you could serve in the military if you were gay, you simply kept your mouth shut about your sexual orientation.  Same goes with the scouts, but that's not good enough for the militant homosexual agenda.  They want to gay it up and expose young minds to their outlandish gyrations and eccentricities, hoping to gain converts.  It's sick, the kind of fags who want to do this, not the Brokeback Mountain type that you would never guess were gay, but the effeminate fruitcakes that make sure you know their gay within 10 seconds or less.


I see.




> How can you be for this?  Does being Catholic mean nothing to you?  We're called to be _radically counter-cultural_ but I don't see you fighting the slide into depravity in any way.  In fact you cheer it on.


This thread is about living in a stateless society, this you seem to have missed.  The point in each of my posts that I focus on is that the federal government wanted to force the BSA to accept gay scoutmasters, but instead they caved to business pressure.  The argument by progressives is always that they need government to fix what they deem are social ills.  This entire thread is about corporate and private industry governing.

You missed that to focus on gay people.

Moreover, when the subject was raised on pedophilia I answered that I don't think that gay people are pedophiles.  I think people are gay, straight, or pedophile.  Canada's Royal College did a long study on it and believe it is an orientation like straight or gay, meaning these people cannot be fixed.  They like kids the way other people like men and women, ie, that a pedophile is neither straight or gay, they will molest any child.

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## Calypso Jones

> This. I'm bi, I've dated a couple guys here and there (le gasp!), but being a generally tough outdoorsy guy, the two guys I dated were more feminine. But they were my age, never little kids. That's just sick.



i so could have lived my life without knowing this.

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Irascible Crusader (01-30-2013),Kabuki Joe (01-30-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

> A guy dude isn't likely going to make an advance on an unwilling minor.
> 
> And what heterosexual 15 year old would sleep with a gay guy anyway?


that makes me feel so secure.

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## Calypso Jones

Little Jesse Dirkhising about 12 or 13 was held for the weekend by 2 homosexual guys.  They bound him, raped him and finally they killed him.

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## Guest

> Little Jesse Dirkhising about 12 or 13 was held for the weekend by 2 homosexual guys.  They bound him, raped him and finally they killed him.


They were pedophiles and rapists.

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## Roadmaster

> Little Jesse Dirkhising about 12 or 13 was held for the weekend by 2 homosexual guys.  They bound him, raped him and finally they killed him.


The media wants to paint them all as non-violent and less likely to harm a child which is wrong. The guy from Canada that was killing people and chopping them up was gay. It's all about the heart of a person and no one should be that confident of people.

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## Guest

> The media wants to paint them all as non-violent and less likely to harm a child which is wrong. The guy from Canada that was killing people and chopping them up was gay. It's all about the heart of a person and no one should be that confident of people.


There are murderers of every type, pedophiles, rapists, wife beaters, etc.  Bad people are everywhere and more of the time they never look like you would expect.

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## Irascible Crusader

> This thread is about living in a stateless society, this you seem to have missed. The point in each of my posts that I focus on is that the federal government wanted to force the BSA to accept gay scoutmasters, but instead they caved to business pressure. The argument by progressives is always that they need government to fix what they deem are social ills. This entire thread is about corporate and private industry governing.


Don't be coy.  You've been very supportive of BSA caving into the homosexual agenda, regardless of where the pressure is coming from.  The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered."  No devout Catholic can stay true to Church teaching and support the advance of immoral lifestyles.



> Moreover, when the subject was raised on pedophilia I answered that I don't think that gay people are pedophiles. I think people are gay, straight, or pedophile. Canada's Royal College did a long study on it and believe it is an orientation like straight or gay, meaning these people cannot be fixed. They like kids the way other people like men and women, ie, that a pedophile is neither straight or gay, they will molest any child.


You need to study some more.  The lines between adult and child are easily obscured as I was telling XL.  I have gay friends who I know are strongly against any sexual abuse of children.  But if heterosexuals can have sexualities that range into pubescent children, then it makes sense that homosexuals can too.  However, a direct sexual assault on a child isn't the only way that homosexuals can harm children.  They can also have an inappropriate mentor relationship that encourages children to explore sexuality outside of what is straight, moral, and ordained by God before the foundation of the earth.  The flagrantly open homosexuals are proselytizing their perversion, hoping to seek converts among impressionable children.  I can understand perfectly parents seeking out enclaves such as the BSA where they know and trust their boys won't be exposed to such ungodly influences.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Don't be coy.  You've been very supportive of BSA caving into the homosexual agenda, regardless of where the pressure is coming from.  The Catholic Church teaches that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered."  No devout Catholic can stay true to Church teaching and support the advance of immoral lifestyles.
> 
> 
> You need to study some more.  The lines between adult and child are easily obscured as I was telling XL.  I have gay friends who I know are strongly against any sexual abuse of children.  But if heterosexuals can have sexualities that range into pubescent children, then it makes sense that homosexuals can too.  However, a direct sexual assault on a child isn't the only way that homosexuals can harm children.  They can also have an inappropriate mentor relationship that encourages children to explore sexuality outside of what is straight, moral, and ordained by God before the foundation of the earth.  The flagrantly open homosexuals are proselytizing their perversion, hoping to seek converts among impressionable children.  I can understand perfectly parents seeking out enclaves such as the BSA where they know and trust their boys won't be exposed to such ungodly influences.


Oh please. Nobody is trying to "convert" straight kids into homosexuals.

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## kilgram

> The media wants to paint them all as non-violent and less likely to harm a child which is wrong. The guy from Canada that was killing people and chopping them up was gay. It's all about the heart of a person and no one should be that confident of people.


And what you mean? Are you trying to say that gays are evil people? Or what?

You can find anything. But you will create more problems if you don't let that homosexuals have a normal life, without having to hide what they are...

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## OceanloverOH

> However, a direct sexual assault on a child isn't the only way that homosexuals can harm children.  They can also have an *inappropriate mentor relationship* that encourages children to explore sexuality outside of what is straight, moral, and ordained by God before the foundation of the earth.  The flagrantly open homosexuals are proselytizing their perversion, hoping to seek converts among impressionable children.  I can understand perfectly parents seeking out enclaves such as the BSA where they know and trust their boys won't be exposed to such ungodly influences.


Mike quite succinctly nailed my opposition to gays becoming BSA leaders or especially Scoutmasters.  It's not that I think all gays are pedophiles and would assault or abuse a child....far from it.  Most of the gays I know or have known are very loving and moral individuals, especially with children, just like most of the straight people I know; no differences there.  It's the *mentor relationship* that a Scoutmaster fills, that I take issue with a gay person leading these children.  Unless you have had a son in the scouting program, you may not understand that so many Cub and Boy scouts (particularly those from broken homes) revere and idolize their Scoutmaster.  He can do no wrong; he leads them and influences them mentally, physically and emotionally through *faith-based guidance* (most Scouting programs are sponsored by churches).  Homosexuality is by its very nature, in my opinion, contrary to a strong Christian background.  Though I think children should be carefully exposed to all lifestyles equally in order to prepare them to be a functioning member of our complex society; the Scouting program is NOT the place to do it.  Scouting is meant to build character, encourage camaraderie, focus on family values and teach survival and life skills.

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Irascible Crusader (01-30-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-30-2013),Trinnity (01-30-2013)

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## Paperback Writer

> Mike quite succinctly nailed my opposition to gays becoming BSA leaders or especially Scoutmasters.  It's not that I think all gays are pedophiles and would assault or abuse a child....far from it.  Most of the gays I know or have known are very loving and moral individuals, especially with children, just like most of the straight people I know; no differences there.  It's the *mentor relationship* that a Scoutmaster fills, that I take issue with a gay person leading these children.  Unless you have had a son in the scouting program, you may not understand that so many Cub and Boy scouts (particularly those from broken homes) revere and idolize their Scoutmaster.  He can do no wrong; he leads them and influences them mentally, physically and emotionally through *faith-based guidance* (most Scouting programs are sponsored by churches).  Homosexuality is by its very nature, in my opinion, contrary to a strong Christian background.  Though I think children should be carefully exposed to all lifestyles equally in order to prepare them to be a functioning member of our complex society; the Scouting program is NOT the place to do it.  Scouting is meant to build character, encourage camaraderie, focus on family values and teach survival and life skills.


That's a dangerous combination, having a weak child and a strong mentor regardless of programme is a recipe for disaster.  The types of people who choose to be around children and not adults all seem to have a bit something wrong with them.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Oh please. Nobody is trying to "convert" straight kids into homosexuals.


How do you know?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> How do you know?


How do you know they are?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Mike quite succinctly nailed my opposition to gays becoming BSA leaders or especially Scoutmasters.  It's not that I think all gays are pedophiles and would assault or abuse a child....far from it.  Most of the gays I know or have known are very loving and moral individuals, especially with children, just like most of the straight people I know; no differences there.  It's the *mentor relationship* that a Scoutmaster fills, that I take issue with a gay person leading these children.  Unless you have had a son in the scouting program, you may not understand that so many Cub and Boy scouts (particularly those from broken homes) revere and idolize their Scoutmaster.  He can do no wrong; he leads them and influences them mentally, physically and emotionally through *faith-based guidance* (most Scouting programs are sponsored by churches).  Homosexuality is by its very nature, in my opinion, contrary to a strong Christian background.  Though I think children should be carefully exposed to all lifestyles equally in order to prepare them to be a functioning member of our complex society; the Scouting program is NOT the place to do it.  Scouting is meant to build character, encourage camaraderie, focus on family values and teach survival and life skills.


I actually agree with this, with Paperback's added caveat.

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## OceanloverOH

> That's a dangerous combination, having a weak child and a strong mentor regardless of programme is a recipe for disaster.  *The types of people who choose to be around children and not adults all seem to have a bit something wrong with them*.


Aw, come on, Writer.  Really?  You think all teachers, daycare workers, pediatric medical personnel, etc. have something wrong with them because they chose a career involving children?  I absolutely disagree with that premise.  In my experience, the majority of people who choose to involve children in their lives, in whatver capacity, just happen to enjoy being with children.

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## Guest

> Aw, come on, Writer.  Really?  You think all teachers, daycare workers, pediatric medical personnel, etc. have something wrong with them because they chose a career involving children?  I absolutely disagree with that premise.  In my experience, the majority of people who choose to involve children in their lives, in whatver capacity, just happen to enjoy being with children.


I'm going to back him up on this and reference the statistics and occupations of child predators.  You don't see a lot of computer programmers who are child predators, but you do see a lot of teachers, day care providers, etc.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I'm going to back him up on this and reference the statistics and occupations of child predators.  You don't see a lot of computer programmers who are child predators, but you do see a lot of teachers, day care providers, etc.


Yeah, gotta back both of them up on this. While not EVERY person going into a child-oriented profession is a pedo, child-oriented professions ARE targeted by pedo's for ease of access.

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## Guest

> Yeah, gotta back both of them up on this. While not EVERY person going into a child-oriented profession is a pedo, child-oriented professions ARE targeted by pedo's for ease of access.


^^This.  I don't think all teachers are pedophiles, but I think pedophiles want to be teachers, ministers, day care providers, mentors, etc.  It is no difference than the guys who want strip club jobs.

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## The XL

Most people who work with children do not have nefarious intentions, but naturally, most pedophiles will look to get jobs centered around children.

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## OceanloverOH

So why do 40% of the voters in this poll think this gays in Scout leadership is a GOOD thing?   :Thinking:

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So why do 40% of the voters in this poll think this gays in Scout leadership is a GOOD thing?


Because gays are no more prone to pedophilia than straights.

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## Coolwalker

If I had a son who wanted to be a Boy Scout and the Scoutmaster was a limp-wrist, my son would not be a Boy Scout. Very simple. I would never trust a fagolet with my child...never! Anyone who does is an idiot asking for trouble.

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## Coolwalker

> So why do 40% of the voters in this poll think this gays in Scout leadership is a GOOD thing?


It's the same people who think Obama is doing a good job.

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OceanloverOH (01-30-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> It's the same people who think Obama is doing a good job.


What a stupid thing to say. I'm sure you'll do something to back up this absurd assertion.

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## Coolwalker

> What a stupid thing to say. I'm sure you'll do something to back up this absurd assertion.


Actually I don't have to because any _thinking_ individual can see that. Wait...you are _The Real American Thinke_r, so surely you already knew that.

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## OceanloverOH

> Because gays are no more prone to pedophilia than straights.


Without the pedophilia charge; I already said I didn't think that was a player, personally.  I'm more concerned about role-modeling....to me, that's HUGE.

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## Guest

> Actually I don't have to because any _thinking_ individual can see that. Wait...you are _The Real American Thinke_r, so surely you already knew that.


So do you believe that Gary Johnson, libertarian candidate agrees with Obama?  Do you think Rothbard or Mises would think Obama is doing a good job?  

The idea of business as tool of governance as opposed to the state is not a "progressive" concept.  This whole thread was concerning the effectiveness of business over government in introducing social changes to the populace.  In this matter the state did not have to force the BSA to comply, they made the decision on their own as a result of pressure from businesses.

Many of you are "pro business" so I was curious how you would feel about this because you are highly supportive of businesses/employers over government or individuals.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Actually I don't have to because any _thinking_ individual can see that. Wait...you are _The Real American Thinke_r, so surely you already knew that.


It has nothing to do with being a thinking individual. Quite the opposite. A thinking individual would recognize that you can have no problem with this and still hate Obama. You know, like the Log Cabin Republicans..._gay Republicans that voted for Mitt Romney._

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Without the pedophilia charge; I already said I didn't think that was a player, personally.  I'm more concerned about role-modeling....to me, that's HUGE.


Ah. Well, I think that's a concern for any individual, gay or otherwise. I can think of several straight men I wouldn't want kids emulating. I think the whole BSA structure is a flawed idea, personally.

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## Coolwalker

> It has nothing to do with being a thinking individual. Quite the opposite. A thinking individual would recognize that you can have no problem with this and still hate Obama. You know, like the Log Cabin Republicans..._gay Republicans that voted for Mitt Romney._


You remind me of a kid learning to ride a bike...sway to the left, sway to the right, stay in the middle sometimes, but always swaying. Someday you'll learn how to ride that bike.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You remind me of a kid learning to ride a bike...sway to the left, sway to the right, stay in the middle sometimes, but always swaying. Someday you'll learn how to ride that bike.


Cool story bro. Any time you want to admit your previous statement was full of crap, let me know.

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WalterSobchak (02-01-2013)

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## Guest

If the Boy Scouts of America is a religious institution of any type then they should stick to their guns on this, but if their goal was to be a secular organization then they did the right thing.  

I have an assload of gay friends, some even drag queens, and there are one or two who have an "activist" streak and others that just want to blend into the woodwork.  I have several friends who if they were scoutmasters not a single person would know they were gay because they don't want to be identified by their sexual preference but by what makes them unique beings, ie "their interests and character".  At the same time, there will be some who bring their sexuality into it because they've have an adversarial spirit after years of being told they are pedophiles, an abomination, evil, horrid, etc.

I have no dog in this fight, so I don't really think I should dictate or have a voice in the decision of parents and individual scouting chapters.

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## Coolwalker

My wife has gay friends, one of her sisters is gay and one of her nieces is gay as well as one of her cousins...for the most part I tolerate them because I love her, but I find the culture abhorrent. I also think the word gay is way off base. usually they are bitching or crying about something or someone...sad is the word I would use.

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## Guest

> My wife has gay friends, one of her sisters is gay and one of her nieces is gay as well as one of her cousins...for the most part I tolerate them because I love her, but I find the culture abhorrent. I also think the word gay is way off base. usually they are bitching or crying about something or someone...sad is the word I would use.


There is no "gay culture" because there are "southern gays", "northern gays", San Francisco gays", "midwest gays", "NYC gays", etc.

I have gay friends from Maine that you have zero clue they were gay.  They wear LL Bean, go hunting, fishing, etc. and are general outdoorsey's.  Then I have gay friends from DC who are "ultra fabulous" and one was even a contestant on RPDR.

It's like when people talk about American culture, I say "which one"?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> There is no "gay culture" because there are "southern gays", "northern gays", San Francisco gays", "midwest gays", "NYC gays", etc.
> 
> I have gay friends from Maine that you have zero clue they were gay.  They wear LL Bean, go hunting, fishing, etc. and are general outdoorsey's.  Then I have gay friends from DC who are "ultra fabulous" and one was even a contestant on RPDR.
> 
> It's like when people talk about American culture, I say "which one"?


That's what makes me wonder about the people who complain about "gay culture" while claiming to have or know gay friends/people.

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## Calypso Jones

> They were pedophiles and rapists.



they were a homo couple.

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## Guest

> they were a homo couple.


If they weren't pedophiles why did they have sex with a child?

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WalterSobchak (02-01-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

If they are going to accept homoscout masters (putting a whole new meaning to masters) why not just abandon their mission statment and accept ATHEISTS.     All it is, is incrementalism....destroying every decent thing in the US and in the World.  

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kristin...-about-atheist

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## Guest

> If they are going to accept homoscout masters (putting a whole new meaning to masters) why not just abandon their mission statment and accept ATHEISTS.     All it is, is incrementalism....destroying every decent thing in the US and in the World.  
> 
> http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kristin...-about-atheist



Why didn't people send more money to support the scouts if they were so valued?  It wasn't the government that forced them to change it was the lack of sponsors.

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## Roadmaster

> If they weren't pedophiles why did they have sex with a child?


Because some men are like this. The same as some will have sex with an animal if it's there or a woman they think is ugly. It's all about them and trying to understand this is impossible. Yes, some women are the same.

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## Guest

> Because some men are like this. The same as some will have sex with an animal if it's there or a woman they think is ugly. It's all about them and trying to understand this is impossible. Yes, some women are the same.


That's not normal behavior from anyone.  Most people are highly selective and in fact "pre-selection" is evolutionary.  People who rape children are pedophiles.  People who have sex with animals practice beastiality.

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## GrassrootsConservative

Voted the 4th option. I am glad to be part of the majority.

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## Roadmaster

> That's not normal behavior from anyone.


 But they would disagree with you. They use excuses like, well he or she looked like the person I liked in middle school, the dog or whatever came onto me. It's like a high for most of them to do something they know is wrong but want to experience something different. The same reasons a married man may see what he is missing and have gay sex or go after someone half his age. Normal people don't understand this behavior but they make excuses to do whatever at that time.

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## Guest

> But they would disagree with you. They use excuses like, well he or she looked like the person I liked in middle school, the dog or whatever came onto me. It's like a high for most of them to do something they know is wrong but want to experience something different. The same reasons a married man may see what he is missing and have gay sex or go after someone half his age. Normal people don't understand this behavior but they make excuses to do whatever at that time.


The married guy was always gay, the guy who liked the dog always liked dogs, and pedophiles always liked children.


The inclinations of pedophiles are not "reproductive" or sexual in the sense that others that enjoy adults are, in fact, they have the same mentality of "force" as that of a rapist, they intend to do harm.

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