# Stuff and Things > HISTORY, veterans & science >  How to describe 10 dimensions

## UKSmartypants

Let me have a try.....

Dimensions 1,2 and 3 represent any point in this universe
D4 is any point past or future in this universe
D5 is any point in any alternative universe that has branched from our universe since the Big Bang, at the same point in D4
D6 is a set of all possible wave functions of any point  in time, in D5, past or future
D7 is a set of all possible wave functions of all possible universes that exist starting from a different big bang to ours
D8 is all possible wave functions of all possible universes of any origin at any point corresponding to the same point in time, in our D4
D9 is all possible universes at all possible times in this Multiverse. It is not a dimensions of physicals, its an infinite set of all possible wave functions
D10 is the wave function of all possible D9's of any multiverse, ie an infinite set of infinite sets.



God, therefore, must be the single wave function in D11 that represents D10.


Does this makes sense or is it bollocks? It would explain, for example, why the top 6 dimensions look compactified to us, because we can only observe one single planck slice of each one, in the same way we can only experience D4 one single planck slice in sequence, which then looks  like time to us, but  is in fact merely  a limited view of forward motion in  a spatial dimension

Nothing in Relativity, Quantum theory or M Theory demands the existence of a time dimension.

Im not actually a fan of time, there isnt any real evidence it exists, and if it does Relativity supports the idea it may well be a localized phenomena.   Time depends on our description of entropy being correct, which it may well not be, since it relies on the entire premise the Second law of Thermodynamics is correct, and THAT relies on two entirely spurious  unproven assumptions that the Universe is a closed system and the nett amount of mass/energy/information in the universe is fixed. Since Hawking discovered Hawking Radiation, and Rubin and Ford proved Dark matter and energy, then both assumptions are entirely in doubt. And then add that to the evidence that CPT (Charge, Parity, Time) violation DOES occur, and some particle interactions are indistinguishable when run forwards then backwards in time - which violates the 2nd Law.

The unthinkable may be the Second Law is wrong. And entropy is not what we think it is, at all. And thers really no such thing as time.

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## ruthless terrier

anything beyond 3 dimensions is only found in the Twilight Zone.

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## UKSmartypants

> anything beyond 3 dimensions is only found in the Twilight Zone.



well you need 4 dimensions to post here, for a start.....and Quantum  Many Worlds Theory demands an infinite umber of parallel universes which implies higher dimensions, and M Theory provides an excellent description of the Standard model when pitched in 10 dimensions. 

So ill stick with the maths, maths never lies.

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## Captain Kirk!

Well doc, I'm just using two to post this.

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## ruthless terrier

> well you need 4 dimensions to post here.....


sorry I only work in Euclidean space .. not mathematical extensions.

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UKSmartypants (05-11-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> sorry I only work in Euclidean space .. not mathematical extensions.



but you cant observe N dimensions in euclidean space without moving through N+1 dimensions, thats basic physics.

A Rubics Cube is a 6 sided euclidean polytope in D3, as you state, but you can only observe all 6 faces by rotating it, which takes time, ie D4. And that holds true for any euclidean space or polytope of N dimensions, you have to move through N+1 dimensions to observe them.

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## UKSmartypants

> Well doc, I'm just using two to post this.



No you are using 4.

You have to move your hand thru 3 dimensions to operate the computer/phone/tablet ,and through time D4 to do that.

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## ruthless terrier

> but you cant observe N dimensions in euclidean space without moving through N+1 dimensions, thats basic physics.



all you are doing is rotating it .. that's not a dimension. I can easily observe 3 dimensions with a 2D diagram. same as my 2D computer screen.

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## UKSmartypants

yes it is, you move it thru time, which in the accepted physics represents D4. it takes seconds of time to do that. time passes as you move, because your body and the universe around you ostensibly uses energy and increase entropy. You dont regain energy (ie reverse entropy) if you then rotate the cube back to its starting position, You have used  energy and converted it to a lower form of energy, rotational energy, thus increasing the nett entropy of the Universe, because the process by which you used energy was non reversible in time. That's exactly what the Second Law of thermodynamics proves. This isnt really a debatable point. Half of Physics relies on the Second law.  The Second Law states the entropy is the indicator of the arrow of time, and time in relativity is treated as a 4th dimension, thats why its called 'spacetime'. relativity shows that eucludean space and time are interchangeable.

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## Captain Kirk!

> No you are using 4.
> 
> You have to move your hand thru 3 dimensions to operate the computer/phone/tablet ,and through time D4 to do that.


So you're a know it all progressive then? Looks like you are one dimensional.

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## UKSmartypants

> So you're a know it all progressive then? Looks like you are one dimensional.



Funny how someone that knows more that someone else is referred to as a 'know it all'. I prefer 'more curious about the world and better read'.  Being like that stops you turning into a brain dead moron as you get older.

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## Jen

> Let me have a try.....
> 
> Dimensions 1,2 and 3 represent any point in this universe
> D4 is any point past or future in this universe
> D5 is any point in any alternative universe that has branched from our universe since the Big Bang, at the same point in D4
> D6 is a set of all possible wave functions of any point  in time, in D5, past or future
> D7 is a set of all possible wave functions of all possible universes that exist starting from a different big bang to ours
> D8 is all possible wave functions of all possible universes of any origin at any point corresponding to the same point in time, in our D4
> D9 is all possible universes at all possible times in this Multiverse. It is not a dimensions of physicals, its an infinite set of all possible wave functions
> ...


I am pretty sure time is mostly illusion.  Time on this earth is what we measure, but once we leave earth.........it doesn't exist anymore.  It is just a here and now thing.  Past time doesn't exist and neither does future time.  And "now" is just an instant, not a time.

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## QuaseMarco

> Funny how someone that knows more that someone else is referred to as a 'know it all'. I prefer 'more curious about the world and better read'.  Being like that stops you turning into a brain dead moron as you get older.


They are mocking because they do not understand......don't take it to heart.
BTW........... it's all beyond me as well. I do believe there is at least a 4th dimension...... unseen.

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## UKSmartypants

> They are mocking because they do not understand......don't take it to heart.
> BTW........... it's all beyond me as well. I do believe there is at least a 4th dimension...... unseen.


Oh i agree, thanks for your support. The problem is you cant actually point out to a moron hes a moron, because he cant grasp what it is he doesnt know......so i dont bother.... You know when your smart not because of what you know, but when you grasp the extent what it is you dont know. I knew what i didnt know when i was a teenager.  So i set about knowing it.......

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## UKSmartypants

> I am pretty sure time is mostly illusion.  Time on this earth is what we measure, but once we leave earth.........it doesn't exist anymore.  It is just a here and now thing.  Past time doesn't exist and neither does future time.  And "now" is just an instant, not a time.



Well time is certainly an illusion, and its an illusion created by only being able to observe one thin slice of the next dimension above us, one tiny interval called the Planck Time which is 10^-43 of a second. Theres a long involved reason for this exact time interval which him not going into. 

According to quantum theory, stuff doesnt exist until its observed, but that in fact doesnt hold together, since we know there are parts of the universe we cant observe directly which must exist. Then you get the problem is we've only been a sentient observer for say 2 million years, why is the universe 13 billion years old? what observed it at the moment of Big Bang?

So theres a growing school of thought that say the function of observing that causes wave function collapse, which is the thing that creates a moment of reality to the observer, may in fact not need an observer at all. It may well be that wave function collapses occur spontaneously at planck level then trigger a cascade of larger and larger scale waves of reality creation, which then creates local time flow.  So NOW is local just for the observer - Special Relativity in fact implies there is no universal NOW, everyones NOW is slightly different, and NOW is but one fleeting slice of D4, and those slices of NOW, on this planet,  are zpping past you at the speed of 1,000,00,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00  0,000,000  Nows a second. Elsewhere in the universe the go past at different rates. 
This means theres a massive hole in quantum theory.

The other point is that our entire definition of entropy looks like its wrong. Entropy was originally invented to account for losses in closed energy systems, and ever since bits have been tacked on to fit various other theories.It has slowly become clear that entropy must include information, and THATS a bigger problem, because black holes, which are never usually included in calculations regarding the entropy of the universe , contain GIGANTIC amounts of information that cannot be recovered. That means the universe is losing entropy into black holes, which means  its not a closed system, which means the definition of entropy is wrong ,and thus the Second law of Thermodynamics is wrong ,and in one fell swoop we've just completely pulled the rug out from under the feet of most of Classical Mechanics and Physics. its a sort of Reverse Newton move. So time, entropy and reality isnt what we thought they were after all. There has to be a massive chunk of theoretic physics thats staring us in the face and we cant see it.


It also affects the constriants and physics regarding light and its speed, but thats whole other thread.
Dont ask me what the answer is.

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Jen (05-11-2020)

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## Jen

> Well time is certainly an illusion, and its an illusion created by only being able to observe one thin slice of the next dimension above us, one tiny interval called the Planck Time which is 10^-43 of a second. Theres a long involved reason for this exact time interval which him not going into. 
> 
> According to quantum theory, stuff doesnt exist until its observed, but that in fact doesnt hold together, since we know there are parts of the universe we cant observe directly which must exist. Then you get the problem is we've only been a sentient observer for say 2 million years, why is the universe 13 billion years old? what observed it at the moment of Big Bang?
> 
> So theres a growing school of thought that say the function of observing that causes wave function collapse, which is the thing that creates a moment of reality to the observer, may in fact not need an observer at all. It may well be that wave function collapses occur spontaneously at planck level then trigger a cascade of larger and larger scale waves of reality creation, which then creates local time flow.
> 
> This means theres a massive hole in quantum theory.
> 
> The other point is that our entire definition of entropy looks like its wrong. Entropy was originally invented to account for losses in closed energy systems, and ever since bits have been tacked on to fit various other theories.It has slowly become clear that entropy must include information, and THATS a bigger problem, because black holes, which are never usually included in calculations regarding the entropy of the universe , contain GIGANTIC amounts of information that cannot be recovered. That means the universe is losing entropy into black holes, which means  its not a closed system, which means the definition of entropy is wrong ,and thus the Second law of Thermodynamics is wrong ,and in one fell swoop we've just completely pulled the rug out from under the feet of most of Classical Mechanics and Physics. its a sort of Reverse Newton move. So time, entropy and reality isnt what we thought they were after all. There has to be a massive chunk of theoretic physics thats staring us in the face and we cant see it.
> ...


I usually don't understand anything beyond knowing that time is an illusion.  But I do understand what you are saying here.

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UKSmartypants (05-11-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> I usually don't understand anything beyond knowing that time is an illusion.  But I do understand what you are saying here.



Thanks. In short, physics is in deep shit, because it now looks like we've been driving up a dead end canyon for 100 years. The answer is somewhere else we havent looked or thought of yet.

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## OldSchool

> I usually don't understand anything beyond knowing that time is an illusion.  But I do understand what you are saying here.


Reading comprehension is a good thing.  :Wink20: 

General comprehension of how things work, without all the math to explain it and as something to look at guidance as about how and why things work like they do, is even better. Don't ask me how I know.  :Big Grin:

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Jen (05-11-2020)

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## OldSchool

> Reading comprehension is a good thing. 
> 
> General comprehension of how things work, without all the math to explain it and as something to look at guidance as about how and why things work like they do, is even better. Don't ask me how I know.


I must admit quantum physics is WAY beyond me...... I'm just a mechanic with basic understand of physical fundamentals. 

So.... carry on.... I do find this interesting.

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Jen (05-11-2020)

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## Jen

> Reading comprehension is a good thing. 
> 
> General comprehension of how things work, without all the math to explain it and as something to look at guidance as about how and why things work like they do, is even better. Don't ask me how I know.


I read a lot of science articles and at some point they lose me totally and I'm just reading words.  I hate that because I'm a "know it all" type of person.

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## Jen

> Thanks. In short, physics is in deep shit, because it now looks like we've been driving up a dead end canyon for 100 years. The answer is somewhere else we havent looked or thought of yet.


And that's the crux of what I understood.  I've always been hesitant to say "these are facts" when it comes to any kind of science.  In my lifetime a number of "facts" have been proven wrong, so maybe we should say that "these are facts as we know them at this point in time" or something equally as ambiguous to give ourselves room for error.

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## nonsqtr

> Let me have a try.....
> 
> Dimensions 1,2 and 3 represent any point in this universe
> D4 is any point past or future in this universe
> D5 is any point in any alternative universe that has branched from our universe since the Big Bang, at the same point in D4
> D6 is a set of all possible wave functions of any point  in time, in D5, past or future
> D7 is a set of all possible wave functions of all possible universes that exist starting from a different big bang to ours
> D8 is all possible wave functions of all possible universes of any origin at any point corresponding to the same point in time, in our D4
> D9 is all possible universes at all possible times in this Multiverse. It is not a dimensions of physicals, its an infinite set of all possible wave functions
> ...


I've heard this before. It's a fallacious argument.

Think about it. It assumes all axes are Euclidean.

An elementary reading of string theory (M-theory) confirms that all dimensions are not the same.

Some are "compactified", which means mathematically that all points at infinity become indistinguishable. Therefore + infinity equals - infinity and your linear coordinate axis turns into a circle.

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## Physics Hunter

> well you need 4 dimensions to post here, for a start.....and Quantum  Many Worlds Theory demands an infinite umber of parallel universes which implies higher dimensions, and M Theory provides an excellent description of the Standard model when pitched in 10 dimensions. 
> 
> So ill stick with the maths, maths never lies.


The 4 dimensions is, at least, correct, with the added possibility of a Spiritual dimension but I digress.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the Quantum Multiverse meanderings seem to deny the laws of Thermo, creating vast amounts of energy at the random whim of quantum "choices".  Either Thermo is wrong, or the whole multiverse is BS.  As a scientist, just gotta face that.

Math can take you anywhere you desire, when you apply empirical experiments and logic you get to the truth.  Think Gravitational Red Shift.

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## Physics Hunter

> Let me have a try.....
> 
> Dimensions 1,2 and 3 represent any point in this universe
> D4 is any point past or future in this universe
> D5 is any point in any alternative universe that has branched from our universe since the Big Bang, at the same point in D4
> D6 is a set of all possible wave functions of any point  in time, in D5, past or future
> D7 is a set of all possible wave functions of all possible universes that exist starting from a different big bang to ours
> D8 is all possible wave functions of all possible universes of any origin at any point corresponding to the same point in time, in our D4
> D9 is all possible universes at all possible times in this Multiverse. It is not a dimensions of physicals, its an infinite set of all possible wave functions
> ...


Read your own D6-10 points.  They are wave theory heavy and assume an infinite energy source.  That is logically thin.  Sounds like the stock market valuing Tesla higher than the "Big Three" put together.  

There is a Physics joke that has a punchline:
"Assume a Spherical chicken."

You speak of the theoretical, and that is fine if you frame it as such.  Just don't post it as truth unless you can describe how to test it and show the results.

My Timex watch says it took 2:13 to reply to this.  Time is real for humans, and so far we are it in the sentient club.

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## UKSmartypants

> Read your own D6-10 points.  They are wave theory heavy and assume an infinite energy source.  That is logically thin.  Sounds like the stock market valuing Tesla higher than the "Big Three" put together.  
> 
> There is a Physics joke that has a punchline:
> "Assume a Spherical chicken."
> 
> You speak of the theoretical, and that is fine if you frame it as such.  Just don't post it as truth unless you can describe how to test it and show the results.
> 
> My Timex watch says it took 2:13 to reply to this.  Time is real for humans, and so far we are it in the sentient club.


Well thats the problem isnt it.  Once upon a day astronomers and physicists did the experiments and theoroticians explained the results. Cosmology and Particle Physics has gone long past the point where stuff can be proved by experiment, and in fact some stuff, as Karl Godel explained, is untestable or unknowable.


The answer IMHO is in fact is in M Theory, because the way it stiches together the 6 different  types of String Theory shows it points to something even deeper and more fundamental. Lets face it, the Standard Model is full of holes. Neither Relativity nor Quantum theory can actually explain the origin of Gravity. Neither explains why Gravity is fundamentally weaker than Strong or Weak nuclear force, or electromagntism.  It fails to explain why Gravity does not appear to comply with the way the three other forces are created, ie Symmetry Breaking.

Neither theory explains the vast difference in mass values of the particles.  Theres no explanation regarding Dark matter nor Dark energy. Why do neutrinos have mass when they should be massless?  Why is the universe full of matter when it ought to have all been removed by antimatter just after the Big Bang? The Standard Model cant explain the imbalance.  Why is the expansion of the Universe accelerating?  Why havent we been able to spot a Gravitron yet?   

Its absolutely full of holes. There has to be something deeper, but we are into the realms of stuff you will never test with direct practical experiments



Wheras you may dislike higher D theories, IMHO it may well be the only way to represent gravity, as some sort if higher dimension Abelian Gauge Field, and ill put money on it not being a fundamental force in the style of electromagntism. After all theres precednt for thuis approach, splitting Kaluza-Klien five-dimensional spacetime into the Einstein equations and Maxwell equations in four dimensions by Gunnar Nordström in 1914

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## nonsqtr

> Well thats the problem isnt it.  Once upon a day astronomers and physicists did the experiments and theoroticians explained the results. Cosmology and Particle Physics has gone long past the point where stuff can be proved by experiment, and in fact some stuff, as Karl Godel explained, is untestable or unknowable.
> 
> 
> The answer IMHO is in fact is in M Theory, because the way it stiches together the 6 different  types of String Theory shows it points to something even deeper and more fundamental. Lets face it, the Standard Model is full of holes. Neither Relativity nor Quantum theory can actually explain the origin of Gravity. Neither explains why Gravity is fundamentally weaker than Strong or Weak nuclear force, or electromagntism.  It fails to explain why Gravity does not appear to comply with the way the three other forces are created, ie Symmetry Breaking.
> 
> Neither theory explains the vast difference in mass values of the particles.  Theres no explanation regarding Dark matter nor Dark energy. Why do neutrinos have mass when they should be massless?  Why is the universe full of matter when it ought to have all been removed by antimatter just after the Big Bang? The Standard Model cant explain the imbalance.  Why is the expansion of the Universe accelerating?  Why havent we been able to spot a Gravitron yet?   
> 
> Its absolutely full of holes. There has to be something deeper, but we are into the realms of stuff you will never test with direct practical experiments
> 
> ...


Remember, models only describe the behavior "as if" the system conformed to the model. Of COURSE, algebraic topology pretty much guarantees that there is a higher dimensional embedding that will accept combinations of lower dimensions. But that tells us nothing, it says nothing about what the degrees of freedom actually mean. People have posited time quanta and minimal Planck-like intervals of time... um... how can I say this... an "electron field" is just like the gravitational constant, it's like taking all the things we can't explain and lumping them into a number. Look ma, the equations work!  :Smile:

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## UKSmartypants

> Remember, models only describe the behavior "as if" the system conformed to the model. Of COURSE, algebraic topology pretty much guarantees that there is a higher dimensional embedding that will accept combinations of lower dimensions. But that tells us nothing, it says nothing about what the degrees of freedom actually mean. People have posited time quanta and minimal Planck-like intervals of time... um... how can I say this... an "electron field" is just like the gravitational constant, it's like taking all the things we can't explain and lumping them into a number. Look ma, the equations work!



Yea but i have more faith in the maths than you :P

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## fmw

> well you need 4 dimensions to post here, for a start.....and Quantum  Many Worlds Theory demands an infinite umber of parallel universes which implies higher dimensions, and M Theory provides an excellent description of the Standard model when pitched in 10 dimensions. 
> 
> So ill stick with the maths, maths never lies.


What you are sticking with is beliefs, not math.

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## UKSmartypants

> What you are sticking with is beliefs, not math.



think you find most of  Physics , including Quantum Theory, the Standard Model, Relativity , String Theory and M Theory have enormous amounts of complex maths supporting them. Otherwise the worlds scientists wouldnt give any of them the time of time.

On the other hand, going round saying "Theres no such thing as 10D" without huge wodge of maths to prove it most definitely doesnt have any legs.

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## UKSmartypants

> My Timex watch says it took 2:13 to reply to this.  Time is real for humans, and so far we are it in the sentient club.


Eat funny mushrooms and pink Unicorns are real. Reality is another fuzzy concept.  so it time. Your watch only said 2:13 because of the spacetime curl you exist in. Other aliens in other curl spaces may disagree.  And at a quantum level some particles would say its  -2:13 (proven)


This is why i like this forum, you can have a debate without  a flame war. Some other forums appear to have drawn there users from a Moron Storage Facility.

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## nonsqtr

> Yea but i have more faith in the maths than you :P


You know about cohomologies?

How about stochastic manifolds?

Have you read my thread about how the brain synthesizes the "analog self", by compactifying the time dimension?

The basic concept is that the "noise" associated with biological processes represents an actual physical dimension.

Why? Because at the most basic level, there is a cost associated with selecting from a set. The event called "wave function collapse" is such a selection.

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## nonsqtr

> think you find most of  Physics , including Quantum Theory, the Standard Model, Relativity , String Theory and M Theory have enormous amounts of complex maths supporting them. Otherwise the worlds scientists wouldnt give any of them the time of time.
> 
> On the other hand, going round saying "Theres no such thing as 10D" without huge wodge of maths to prove it most definitely doesnt have any legs.


Oh yeah - the other comment.

"Existence" is not really the issue. "Visibility" is the issue.

In M-theory, the reason we can not "see" the extra dimensions is because they're curled up into little tiny balls. They "exist", but we can't "see" them, so "for US" they don't exist.

So "we" can not measure them. We have to conjecture that they behave "as if" they were ordinary Euclidean dimensions curled up into little tiny balls at the Planck scale or whatever.

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