# Stuff and Things > HISTORY, veterans & science >  Martian Soil is Toxic And There Are violent dust storms

## Fall River

Visitors to Mars will have to shower before they go back inside their living quarters so as not to bring in any toxic dust.  But what if there is a long lasting dust storm that covers everything?

What if their greenhouse vegetables absorb highly toxic perchlorate compounds from the soil and they have nothing to eat?  

What about insufficient gravity to sustain human life?  

Will a one way trip to Mars be a certain death sentence for astronaut explorers?

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Quark (06-23-2020),Swedgin (06-24-2020)

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## Quark

I don't have any answers.

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Fall River (06-24-2020)

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## Hillofbeans

Years in the making before that question can be answered.

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## HawkTheSlayer

What if we try to clean up the hundreds of toxic waste sites here in the US first.
And maybe wipe out hunger in this country while we're at it.

There is no excuse for even one, single person in this country not having enough to eat.

We don't need to be sending money to foreign nations and especially the UN.

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GreenEyedLady (06-23-2020),Hillofbeans (06-23-2020),Lone Gunman (06-23-2020),Swedgin (06-24-2020)

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## Swedgin

> Visitors to Mars will have to shower before they go back inside their living quarters so as not to bring in any toxic dust. But what if there is a long lasting dust storm that covers everything?


--How toxic?  There are many things that are toxic in our own atmosphere.  And, many toxic substances require long amounts of exposure.  Some, take only moments....




> What if their greenhouse vegetables absorb highly toxic perchlorate compounds from the soil and they have nothing to eat?


--Obviously a question that needs to be answered.  We simply do not know.  (Although, as per Elon Musk's plans, we could send some robots and a green house to the red planet, and study much of this before the first human is sent....




> What about insufficient gravity to sustain human life?


--The Martian gravity will be fine for human life, although, due to atrophy, those who spend a long time on Mars (AND the journey there and back), may have a tough adjustment once back on Earth.  Anyone BORN on Mars, will likely be very uncomfortable in Earth Gravity, if they can survive it long, at all....)




> Will a one way trip to Mars be a certain death sentence for astronaut explorers?


--It very well could be, but....especially at first...we need to have the capacity to bring both humans, and materials back to Earth, before we send them on a 'one-way trip.'


There are many other challenges as well, including harsh radiation, as Mars does not have the atmosphere or magnetic shielding...

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Fall River (06-24-2020)

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## Fall River

Perchlorate in the soil will be very dangerous for astronauts: "Any humans exploring Mars...will find it hard to avoid the finest of dust particles.  It'll get into everything....certainly your habitat."


"It's bad for astronauts because it is toxic for humans, as it interferes with the thyroid."


Toxic Mars: Astronauts Must Deal with Perchlorate on the Red Planet  https://www.space.com/21554-mars-tox...chemicals.html

Some scientists think they will be able to find a way to work around it, detoxify it or control it in some way.  Of course, it's their job so they have to be optimistic.  

But a 60 mile per hour dust storm might spoil their plan.

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Swedgin (06-24-2020),UKSmartypants (06-24-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> Visitors to Mars will have to shower before they go back inside their living quarters so as not to bring in any toxic dust.  But what if there is a long lasting dust storm that covers everything?
> 
> What if their greenhouse vegetables absorb highly toxic perchlorate compounds from the soil and they have nothing to eat?  
> 
> What about insufficient gravity to sustain human life?  
> 
> Will a one way trip to Mars be a certain death sentence for astronaut explorers?


Well the solution is to terraform Mars. The toxic part of martian soil is the perchlorates in the soil. These are compounds form between  metals and negative radicals Ci04. Knowing the soil is laden with perchlorates, why would you be so foolish to grow anything without detoxifying it, and potentially growing under cover.

So theres two things to do with them. First the soil can be processed and the perchlorates removed, because some of them are extremely useful. Ammonium Perchlorate is used as a liquid rocket fuel oxidiser. Other Perchlorate scan be reacted with lithium to liberate oxygen. So, one of the first industrial plants we need to build is a massive plant that processes martian soil and detoxes it.  We are well ahead on such technologies, from detoxing old chemical and other industrial sites.

Any planet we colonise we will ultimately have to terraform. This was recognised in Freeman Dysons 1965 paper on Terraforming Venus, Mars and Jupiter.  SO it might be possible to construct an atmosphere that attacks perchrolrates, or even develop a bacteria that uses perchlorates as food. None of this is too far fetched . Its all within the realms of current tech.


The low gravity will affect humans, but it doesnt make it toxic. Humans will evolve into a new subspecies after a few generations, Homo Martian, to cope with the low gravity, but will need to build domes and use breathing gear until  they can pump the air pressure up.  Theres huge potential to generate oxygen from the rocks and soil, thers almost certianly water deep down, and we can also dump CO2 from earth.  We could live in an atmosphere of 20% O 80% CO2 at 0.25 bar, and it would help wind the temperature up. 


The one way trips to the New World were certain suicide journeys, but it didnt stop man doing it. They were such because they had no support structure in 1595, you sailed off into the wild blue yonder with no idea what was waiting for you in the New World. That is not the case when going to Mars, there will be an immense support structure there to aid and supply any colonists.


The really tricky problems are lack of magnetic field and lack of plate tectonics.

Oh and one other point. a 60mph wind at 1% atmospheric  pressure isnt 1/100 as damaging as a 60mph wiind at 1 atmosphere pressure.

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Swedgin (06-24-2020)

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## Fall River

> I don't have any answers.


https://alien-ufo-sightings.com/2014...-on-your-body/

About Mars' microgravity: Scroll down the where it says, "This is your body. This is your body on Mars"_____________________________________________  .  (flat lined)

In microgravity your whole body will gradually deteriorate:  "Without quadriceps, buttocks, calves, and erector spinae that surround the spinal column and keep it standing tall, the pull of gravity would collapse the human body into a fetal ball and leave it curled close to the floor."  And your heart is a muscle too, so imagine what happens to your heart muscle.

Once the above deterioration takes place, there's no way an astronaut would ever be able to return to earth and survive earth's gravity.  


The trip to Mars will take anywhere from 6 to 8 months.  So it's likely they will already be less healthy by the time they arrive.

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Quark (06-24-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> https://alien-ufo-sightings.com/2014...-on-your-body/
> 
> About Mars' microgravity: Scroll down the where it says, "This is your body. This is your body on Mars"_____________________________________________  .  (flat lined)
> 
> In microgravity your whole body will gradually deteriorate:  "Without quadriceps, buttocks, calves, and erector spinae that surround the spinal column and keep it standing tall, the pull of gravity would collapse the human body into a fetal ball and leave it curled close to the floor."  And your heart is a muscle too, so imagine what happens to your heart muscle.
> 
> Once the above deterioration takes place, there's no way an astronaut would ever be able to return to earth and survive earth's gravity.  
> 
> 
> The trip to Mars will take anywhere from 6 to 8 months.  So it's likely they will already be less healthy by the time they arrive.


But this issue is already dealt with on the ISS. Astronauts  in zero gravity  use treadmills and other gym kit on a regular regime to prevent muscle degradation. Mars isnt even zero G, its 0.376 earths.  And 6-8 months?   The russian Valery Polyakov  spent 437 days on the ISS in microgravity. And any Mars mission can create artificial gravity by spinning the  vehicle. None of your objections are insurmountable.

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## Fall River

UKSmartypants:  "Humans will evolve into a new subspecies after a few generations..."

The problem is: They likely won't be able to successfully reproduce in the first place. And, if a woman does manage to have a baby, it will likely be malformed and sickly.  And that will be the last of the human race on Mars.
Remember, adaptation/evolution took hundreds of thousands of years for man on earth.  Visitors to Mars are not going to adapt in a few generations, they will simply die off.

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## UKSmartypants

> UKSmartypants:  "Humans will evolve into a new subspecies after a few generations..."
> 
> The problem is: They likely won't be able to successfully reproduce in the first place. And, if a woman does manage to have a baby, it will likely be malformed and sickly.  And that will be the last of the human race on Mars.
> Remember, adaptation/evolution took hundreds of thousands of years for man on earth.  Visitors to Mars are not going to adapt in a few generations, they will simply die off.



well thats speculation.  No scientific research concerning fucking in 1/3 gravity has ever been conducted, but i suspect its not too different to fucking in 1/6 gravity (underwater) which has been very sucessfully tested.

See, ive explored this before, there is no technical problem that mankind has failed to solve eventually, and almost everything thats been declared 'impossible' by learned men, has invariable turned out to be perfectly possible  I suspect within the next 100 years the travel time to Mars will be drastically cut, because the signs are we will finally crack fusion power, and that will be a great leap forward.

However, a further issue that come to light is static. If you look at a full blown volcanic explosion, you see huge amounts of lightning strikes in the clouds above the eruption, caused by the ash particles rubbing together. Precisely the same thing happens on mars because of the low air pressure, winds and dry surface. The surface of Mars seems to be carrying a large constantly renewed static charge. This could be a problem, Static discharges from dust could wreck the electronics  in spacesuits, and could be triggering the production of free chlorine into the atmosphere, which is not good.



Consider, since 1971 there have been 18 attempts to land robots on Mars and 11 of these either crashed, fatally malfunctioned soon after landing or missed the planet altogether. If human lives are at stake, we need better odds of success.

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## UKSmartypants

and ive thought of another issue.

Micrometeorites.

Theres no atmosphere, so they dont burn up. So they go hurtling down to the surface at unbelievable speeds. There are only 1000th to 100th of a gram, but they are travelling at 11km/s so they go straight  through a human being......

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Fall River (06-25-2020)

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## US Conservative

Some interesting reading here.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....9/2019JE006005

One thing I am certain about, we will need to walk before we can run when it comes to living on mars.

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Fall River (06-25-2020)

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## Fall River

> Well the solution is to terraform Mars. The toxic part of martian soil is the perchlorates in the soil. These are compounds form between  metals and negative radicals Ci04. Knowing the soil is laden with perchlorates, why would you be so foolish to grow anything without detoxifying it, and potentially growing under cover.
> 
> So theres two things to do with them. First the soil can be processed and the perchlorates removed, because some of them are extremely useful. Ammonium Perchlorate is used as a liquid rocket fuel oxidiser. Other Perchlorate scan be reacted with lithium to liberate oxygen. So, one of the first industrial plants we need to build is a massive plant that processes martian soil and detoxes it.  We are well ahead on such technologies, from detoxing old chemical and other industrial sites.
> 
> Any planet we colonise we will ultimately have to terraform. This was recognised in Freeman Dysons 1965 paper on Terraforming Venus, Mars and Jupiter.  SO it might be possible to construct an atmosphere that attacks perchrolrates, or even develop a bacteria that uses perchlorates as food. None of this is too far fetched . Its all within the realms of current tech.
> 
> 
> The low gravity will affect humans, but it doesnt make it toxic. Humans will evolve into a new subspecies after a few generations, Homo Martian, to cope with the low gravity, but will need to build domes and use breathing gear until  they can pump the air pressure up.  Theres huge potential to generate oxygen from the rocks and soil, thers almost certianly water deep down, and we can also dump CO2 from earth.  We could live in an atmosphere of 20% O 80% CO2 at 0.25 bar, and it would help wind the temperature up. 
> 
> ...


Terraforming Mars: The economic resources for undertaking such a hypothetical process is unlikely to be forthcoming.

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## UKSmartypants

> Terraforming Mars: The economic resources for undertaking such a hypothetical process is unlikely to be forthcoming.




not true. The economic power of earth is rising on an exponential scale, and has done since the middle ages. Its directly connected to the energy usage of the planet, and thats connected to the Technological singularity.


Im am genuinely baffled as to why you think stuff like this wont change. We cant  afford it now, but we will be able to in 2070.  In 1800 we couldnt have afforded to build the Hoover dam.   As time progresses, energy, economic power, and knowledge  increase. it never stays still and it never decreases. History proves that beyond doubt.




You also make the mistake of assuming that which motivates man will never change. Its likely, given the way Robotics and AI will take over most peoples jobs, and the need or desire to earn money will vanish. If the entire planet no longer  has to work to live, then human labour become free, and materials become free.  In Star Trek, the assumption is in the 23rd century there in no desire for personal wealth, which is why they can build starships. And id like to point out almost all the tech in star trek from tricorders to communicators has been invented in some form.

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## Fall River

> But this issue is already dealt with on the ISS. Astronauts  in zero gravity  use treadmills and other gym kit on a regular regime to prevent muscle degradation. Mars isnt even zero G, its 0.376 earths.  And 6-8 months?   The russian Valery Polyakov  spent 437 days on the ISS in microgravity. And any Mars mission can create artificial gravity by spinning the  vehicle. None of your objections are insurmountable.


Correct, Mars isn't zero gravity.  However, the issue is the aggregate of zero on the 6 to 8 month trip plus 0.376 for those who plan to be permanent residents.  Muscle loss on the ISS can be managed to some extent by exercising but they can't walk when they get back to earth.  A recovery time is needed. 

Also, consider this: On average, space travelers can lose one to two percent of bone mass each month.  

What about spinning the space vehicle to create artificial gravity?  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-brain-damage/

According to the above link, such a vehicle has not been invented yet, and *new research funded by NASA has reveled that microgravity causes brain damage.*  Read the article.

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## UKSmartypants

it needs the old rotating hull idea to create artificial gravity. If such a vehicle were built in orbit it wouldnt need aerodynamics, so it could be a torus with thrusters in the centre hub for movement.

I dont know if you can read this without a sub, New Scientist is a far more reputable source of information than the Telegraph, and  featured an in depth analysis of the issues of getting to Mars a while ago

https://www.newscientist.com/article...he-red-planet/

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## Fall River

"*IF* such a vehicle where built in orbit it wouldn't need aerodynamics..."  Good idea, but it hasn't been invented yet, it's just a concept.

*Is artificial gravity practical?* https://www.bing.com/search?q=Is+art...9935fce7096b5c




> ...there are no current practical outer space applications ...due to concerns about size and cost..."

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## kazenatsu

> Visitors to Mars will have to shower before they go back inside their living quarters so as not to bring in any toxic dust.


Threads that make an usual claim, but don't give any links, explanation, or context behind that claim are stupid. I usually just ignore these threads, since it is obvious that you couldn't be bothered to make a better written thread, so I can't be bothered to respond.

Perchlorate is also not exactly "highly toxic" either, it's just an iodine disruptor. And even then you have to ingest it, or breathe in a lot of the dust.
You'll find perchlorate in normal fireworks.

The stupidity and ignorance of some of these posts that ask questions about science is just astounding.

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## SharetheHedge

*



			
				Martian Soil is Toxic And There Are violent dust storms
			
		

*


That's why we LEFT THERE in the first place.

Why go BACK?  :Cool20:

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East of the Beast (06-27-2020),Fall River (06-29-2020)

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## kazenatsu

It can be destroyed, but is not necessarily easy. The scientists will likely have to think up a strategy to deal with it, because you can't have that stuff in the soil if you are planning on eating vegetables from the plants that grow in it. It could either involve a very hot heat treatment, or perhaps some sort of electrochemical catalyst mediated breakdown process at lower temperatures.
Probably none of you would understand this, so I won't bother to explain it.

It does make farming on Mars a lot more difficult.

I imagine they would likely have to recycle and conserve the soil that they so treat. That probably will involve using human waste to fertilize it as well.

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## US Conservative

> "*IF* such a vehicle where built in orbit it wouldn't need aerodynamics..."  Good idea, but it hasn't been invented yet, it's just a concept.
> 
> *Is artificial gravity practical?* https://www.bing.com/search?q=Is+art...9935fce7096b5c


As of now its probably not practical, but with the assumption that our knowledge of low gravity environments and ability to send cargo used to build spaceships improves maybe that will change.

There are experiments now with using bisphonates to decrease bone wasting.

Bones need to flex to trigger growth, I can see in the future some sort of centrifugal gravity perhaps even slightly above earths own gravity to prevent bone, tendon, and muscle atrophy.

Currently astronauts are exercising 1-2 hours a day just to prevent this atrophy.  If a 1G+ environment can be maintained, this can be done passively while other duties are performed.

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## US Conservative

> It can be destroyed, but is not necessarily easy. The scientists will likely have to think up a strategy to deal with it, because you can't have that stuff in the soil if you are planning on eating vegetables from the plants that grow in it. It could either involve a very hot heat treatment, or perhaps some sort of electrochemical catalyst mediated breakdown process at lower temperatures.
> Probably none of you would understand this, so I won't bother to explain it.
> 
> It does make farming on Mars a lot more difficult.
> 
> I imagine they would likely have to recycle and conserve the soil that they so treat. That probably will involve using human waste to fertilize it as well.


I could see strains of vegetables/fruits that are modified to grow better in a martian environment.

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## Fall River

> Threads that make an usual claim, but don't give any links, explanation, or context behind that claim are stupid. I usually just ignore these threads, since it is obvious that you couldn't be bothered to make a better written thread, so I can't be bothered to respond.


It wasn't because I couldn't be bothered it was because of time constraints.  




> Perchlorate is also not exactly "highly toxic" either, it's just an iodine disruptor. And even then you have to ingest it, or breathe in a lot of the dust.


So if it's not exactly highly toxic, you would say it's somewhat toxic?





> You'll find perchlorate in normal fireworks.


I'm aware of the fact that perchlorate exists on earth but concentrations and conditions are not the same as what has been found on Mars.  




> The stupidity and ignorance of some of these posts that ask questions about science is just astounding.


From the perspective of colonization, which seems to be the goal, I haven't said anything that isn't true.  

The first sentence of the following link states how Martian dust will be unavoidable:  https://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/goal.cfm?goal=5




> Since Mars is such a dry, dusty, windy place, if humans were to visit the surface of Mars it would be impossible to keep everything clean of dust. It would get everywhere - inside the habitat, all over the suits, and into the machinery - so it would be essential to find out if Martian dust and regolith is toxic to human beings.


I agree with everything except the last part of the above sentence because it expresses doubt about whether it's toxic or not.  If the dust is unavoidable and gets into everything, it will disrupt normal thyroid function and have systemic consequences for human health, especially in regards to colonization which includes raising children.

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UKSmartypants (06-27-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> Threads that make an usual claim, but don't give any links, explanation, or context behind that claim are stupid. I usually just ignore these threads, since it is obvious that you couldn't be bothered to make a better written thread, so I can't be bothered to respond.
> 
> Perchlorate is also not exactly "highly toxic" either, it's just an iodine disruptor. And even then you have to ingest it, or breathe in a lot of the dust.
> You'll find perchlorate in normal fireworks.
> 
> The stupidity and ignorance of some of these posts that ask questions about science is just astounding.


Well no, no, and no

1. if you can write a better post, do it. Or are you all talk and no action. Me I create posts to make discussions.

2. people subjected to a high level of perchlorate for a long time may develop a low level of thyroid activity; the name of this medical condition is hypothyroidism.
Low levels of thyroid hormones in the blood may lead to adverse effects on:

SkinCardiovascular systemPulmonary systemKidneysGastrointestinal tractLiverBloodNeuromuscular systemNervous systemSkeletonMale and female reproductive systemNumerous endocrine organs

3. Unfortunately with world isnt populated with exclusively polymath nuclear physicists.  So some people do ask daft questions. And we dont give links to every item cos we assume if you post on an internet forum you also know how Google works.  Me, i research all my facts, because ive learned the hard way the one fact you dont check is the one everyone will google to see if you are BSing.

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Fall River (06-27-2020)

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## East of the Beast

Call me a throwback,neanderthal, an out of touch old fart.If we were meant to be on Mars the environment would be friendly to us to begin with.

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Fall River (06-27-2020)

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## Fall River

Here's the result of another search: Does silica in Martian dust pose potential lung issues?

Result: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Does+c...882eda4b97b445




> Both lunar and Martian soil stimulants contain silica. Silica, especially in the crystalline form, causes *lung inflammation and fibrosis* on prolonged exposure. Macrophages are the first cell type to come into contact with dust in the lung. Silica and silicates in the lung cause macrophage injury leading to necrosis or apoptosis....


For those who might wonder how bad it is, necrosis or apoptosis means cellular death.

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## Fall River

> Call me a throwback,neanderthal, an out of touch old fart.If we were meant to be on Mars the environment would be friendly to us to begin with.


You're definitely not a Neanderthal, you made a very good point.  There are just too many problems with the Martian environment, and all the engineering in the world won't fix it.

One of the worst problems, in my opinion, is microgravity that can cause brain damage, among other things.

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East of the Beast (06-27-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> You're definitely not a Neanderthal, you made a very good point.  There are just too many problems with the Martian environment, and all the engineering in the world won't fix it.
> 
> One of the worst problems, in my opinion, is microgravity that can cause brain damage, among other things.


Nah i disagree.


Mankind has not yet come across a technical problem that cant be solved. And once we get true AI  nothing will be unsolvable. You have no idea what knowledge we have yet to acquire i the future that will solve all these problems.  Provably, human knowledge expands and marches forward inexorably and an exponential rate.

Did you think 5 years it would always be impossible to get images from peoples brains so we can see what they are dreaming?   Well think again,  we can

https://www.livescience.com/28436-co...m-imagery.html

EVERY problem is solvable eventually.

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## East of the Beast

> *Nah i disagree.
> *
> 
> Mankind has not yet come across a technical problem that cant be solved. And once we get true AI  nothing will be unsolvable. You have no idea what knowledge we have yet to acquire i the future that will solve all these problems.  Provably, human knowledge expands and marches forward inexorably and an exponential rate.
> 
> Did you think 5 years it would always be impossible to get images from peoples brains so we can see what they are dreaming?   Well think again,  we can
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/28436-co...m-imagery.html
> 
> EVERY problem is solvable eventually.


Why am I not surprised?

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## donttread

> Visitors to Mars will have to shower before they go back inside their living quarters so as not to bring in any toxic dust.  But what if there is a long lasting dust storm that covers everything?
> 
> What if their greenhouse vegetables absorb highly toxic perchlorate compounds from the soil and they have nothing to eat?  
> 
> What about insufficient gravity to sustain human life?  
> 
> Will a one way trip to Mars be a certain death sentence for astronaut explorers?



Stay home save money.

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East of the Beast (06-27-2020),Fall River (06-29-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> I could see strains of vegetables/fruits that are modified to grow better in a martian environment.


I can see bacteria being modified to use soil perchlorates as food or energy.

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## UKSmartypants

in fact im behind the science.

Perchlorate reducing bacteria has already been explored. we can do it


https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/ab...7/pdf/3616.pdf




Basically you water the ground with saline and dose it with a specific bacteria they've discovered .   And all the perchlorates go away. Then you just wash the salt out.

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## East of the Beast

> Nah i disagree.
> 
> 
> Mankind has not yet come across a technical problem that cant be solved. And once we get true AI  nothing will be unsolvable. You have no idea what knowledge we have yet to acquire i the future that will solve all these problems.  Provably, human knowledge expands and marches forward inexorably and an exponential rate.
> 
> Did you think 5 years it would always be impossible to get images from peoples brains so we can see what they are dreaming?   Well think again,  we can
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/28436-co...m-imagery.html
> 
> EVERY problem is solvable eventually.


It is not what or how much there is to know, that is unknowable in and of itself....the fact will be what we are allowed to know.

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## UKSmartypants

> It is not what or how much there is to know, that is unknowable in and of itself....the fact will be what we are allowed to know.



Fitch's Paradox asserts that the existence of an unknown truth is unknowable. So if all truths were knowable, it would follow that all truths will in fact become known. but then consider some such truth P that will never actually be known. Then the statement Q: "P is true but will never be known" is true. But Q is clearly unknowable, for if you knew Q then you would know the first conjunct (P), but that would contradict the second conjunct (P is never known), thus making Q false, which is a contradiction. Since knowing Q would yield a contradiction, and is thus impossible, then Q is an unknowable truth.So we've managed to prove a priori that either there are no never-known truths P, or else there are unknowable truths Q.
But i doubt  anything of what we are talking about falls into that category.

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## Fall River

> Nah i disagree.
> 
> 
> Mankind has not yet come across a technical problem that cant be solved. And once we get true AI  nothing will be unsolvable. You have no idea what knowledge we have yet to acquire i the future that will solve .  Provably, human knowledge expands and marches forward inexorably and an exponential rate.
> 
> Did you think 5 years it would always be impossible to get images from peoples brains so we can see what they are dreaming?   Well think again,  we can
> 
> https://www.livescience.com/28436-co...m-imagery.html
> 
> *EVERY problem is solvable eventually.*


In that case, solve this:  Solve the major problems we have on earth so that there will be no need to spend precious American tax dollars trying to solve Martian space-travel and colonization issues.

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## nonsqtr

> In that case, solve this:  Solve the major problems we have on earth so that there will be no need to spend precious American tax dollars trying to solve Martian space-travel and colonization.


Nope.

Like Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you".

Go to Mars.

The poor will follow 

They'll find a way.  :Wink:

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Fall River (06-29-2020)

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## Fall River

> Nope.
> 
> Like Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you".
> 
> Go to Mars.
> 
> The poor will follow 
> 
> They'll find a way.


I've been doing some online searching and lots of reading and I read that it has been said that they would have to send at least 100 people to colonize Mars.  And what form of government would they have?  Anarchy? Communism?  Either way, they will end up almost totally dependent on earthlings to keep sending them what they need to survive.  So those 100 or more people will be the poor and we will have sent them.

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## donttread

> Nope.
> 
> Like Jesus said, "the poor you will always have with you".
> 
> Go to Mars.
> 
> The poor will follow 
> 
> They'll find a way.



But we will eventually bring our problems with us. Rinse and repeat and in a thousand years political driven riots in cities on Mars. Better to fix some of our issues, especially using high powerlust as a qualification for public office, before we infect any other place.

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## UKSmartypants

> But we will eventually bring our problems with us. Rinse and repeat and in a thousand years political driven riots in cities on Mars. Better to fix some of our issues, especially using high powerlust as a qualification for public office, before we infect any other place.



well what WILL happen, because its happened every time across history, including the USA, is at some stage the Martian Colony WILL declare independance from Earth, and then you'll have the Martian War of Independance.

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## UKSmartypants

> I've been doing some online searching and lots of reading and I read that it has been said that they would have to send at least 100 people to colonize Mars.  And what form of government would they have?  Anarchy? Communism?  Either way, they will end up almost totally dependent on earthlings to keep sending them what they need to survive.  So those 100 or more people will be the poor and we will have sent them.


They wont be 'the poor', they will be 'colonists', no different to those that sailed on the Mayflower. But with better support. I dont think you could describe the passengers of the Mayflower primarily as as 'poor'.

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## UKSmartypants

> In that case, solve this:  Solve the major problems we have on earth so that there will be no need to spend precious American tax dollars trying to solve Martian space-travel and colonization issues.


Why, thats a waste of time and money. Its King Canute on a planetary scale.

It doesnt matter how smart you are, how 'green' and woke you get, how much you 'recycle', how frugal you get,  at some point the finite resources of this planet* will* run out. And then we die. Its absolutely inevitable, Easter island was a demonstration of precisely this in microcosm.

If humans want to survive long term, its ONLY chance is to be come a multiplanet species, and to use the entire resource of the solar system, or the galaxy. The resources outside this planet are literally infinite and inexhaustable.

Its an insane idea to want to stay here. Its like living in a huge mansion with 200 billion rooms, and you are trying to live in just one of those rooms, even tho you keep having children and the family is getting bigger and bigger.  Lets spread out a bit and  start using some of the other rooms. Theres plenty of space out there, there's less and less space and resources here, and getting smaller by the day. It seems a sensible plan to me.

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## kazenatsu

> But we will eventually bring our problems with us. Rinse and repeat and in a thousand years political driven riots in cities on Mars. Better to fix some of our issues, especially using high powerlust as a qualification for public office, before we infect any other place.


air and living space on Mars will be socialized, because the people will have to have that to survive

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## kazenatsu

> Here's the result of another search: Does silica in Martian dust pose potential lung issues?


That probably won't be an issue because people won't be directly breathing in the air on Mars.

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## kazenatsu

This is getting off-topic, but I am skeptical whether it is possible to run a viable economy on another planet.

I mean think about it. Mars would be like Earth but everything would be a lot more difficult and expensive. The question is, could people afford to live in Mars, economically?

Because it seems even running a successful economy on Earth can be a challenge.

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## UKSmartypants

> This is getting off-topic, but I am skeptical whether it is possible to run a viable economy on another planet.
> 
> I mean think about it. Mars would be like Earth but everything would be a lot more difficult and expensive. The question is, could people afford to live in Mars, economically?
> 
> Because it seems even running a successful economy on Earth can be a challenge.



Even stone age men had an economy.  I think you are confusing  'economy' with 'capitalism'.   We had an economy long before any form of coinage was devised. Its called barter. Then a bit later on in the Dark ages we had a Market Garden economy.  Mars had plate tectonics once, so its a planet brimming with unexploited resources.

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## Fall River

> They wont be 'the poor', they will be 'colonists', no different to those that sailed on the Mayflower. But with better support. I dont think you could describe the passengers of the Mayflower primarily as as 'poor'.


Some things are the same and some things are different.   


 However, there's a planetary difference; Mars has vastly different environmental conditions.

And we don't know if Mar's colonists will ever be able to survive independently.  So we have to consider what our responsibility will be if they can't survive on their own.  

The report I read online said that 100 people will be needed for colonization and 1000 people will be needed to become independent.  But what happens if it doesn't work?  What's the plan?


On Mars: Desperate needs will sprout like weeds.

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## UKSmartypants

> Some things are the same and some things are different.   
> 
> 
>  However, there's a planetary difference; Mars has vastly different environmental conditions.


It does. And  the Mayflower Colonists  had zero support and no contact with home base, and were using 16th century technology, and had no special training. On the other hand, the Mars Colonists will  be highly trained creme de la creme astronauts , in constant contact with Earth, and have the best of 21st century technology and knowhow.

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## Fall River

> Some things are the same and some things are different.   
> 
> 
>  However, there's a planetary difference; Mars has vastly different environmental conditions.
> 
> And we don't know if Mar's colonists will ever be able to survive independently.  So we have to consider what our responsibility will be if they can't survive on their own.  
> 
> The report I read online said that 100 people will be needed for colonization and 1000 people will be needed to become independent.  But what happens if it doesn't work?  What's the plan?
> 
> ...



The above is my full post which took me a while to complete.  The important question comes from lines 3 and 4.

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## Fall River

> .....at some point the finite resources of this planet* will* run out. And then we die. Its absolutely inevitable...


So the plan is: Go to Mars where there are even less resources.

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## Fall River

> This is getting off-topic, but I am skeptical whether it is possible to run a viable economy on another planet.
> 
> I mean think about it. Mars would be like Earth but everything would be a lot more difficult and expensive. The question is, could people afford to live in Mars, economically?
> 
> Because it seems even running a successful economy on Earth can be a challenge.


We have a great economy thanks, in large part, to the industrial revolution.  In my opinion, there will never be an industrial revolution on Mars.  Their economy will be stuck in Earth's paleolithic period.  On second thought, forget the paleolithic period, they at least had "hunting and gathering" and could breathe earth's atmosphere.

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## Fall River

As long as we are expanding the topic, consider this question:  What will the quality of life be on Mars?

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