# Stuff and Things > HISTORY, veterans & science >  Evolution tells us we might be the only intelligent life in the universe

## Neo

Are we alone in the universe? It comes down to whether intelligence is a probable outcome of natural selection, or an improbable fluke. By definition, probable events occur frequently, improbable events occur rarely  or once. Our evolutionary history shows that many key adaptations  not just intelligence, but complex animals, complex cells, photosynthesis, and life itself  were unique, one-off events, and therefore highly improbable. Our evolution may have been like winning the lottery  only far less likely. 
https://apple.news/AHNXQomHLTOaIdto-aF5guw

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gboisjo (01-25-2020)

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## Northern Rivers

I agree. I've posted what I thought about it long ago.

If we are going to find other intelligent life that is like us...we will share ancient ancestry. Either we seeded them...or...they seeded us. I think it's the former...because...we have a demonstrable hominid ancestry.

If we survive into the far reaches of time..."we" will be known as The Ancestors...The Ancients.

I'm revising...again...a book all about it. Eric Von Daniken...move over! I am of the belief that we humans have reached a threshold of science and technology that exceeds what we know, today...long ago...well before the Ice Ages. 

We are all those "space aliens" that we are seemingly encountering. Our cousins are on a few outposts "out there"...Mars, Luna...Ceres...and on rafts, all in our solar system's vicinity. We've made it to the Centauri cluster and have established our race out there, as well. We're still here on the home planet, too...Antarctica being the nexus. Underground, of course!

So, nope. We are it. There ain't nobody else.

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Neo (01-22-2020)

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## Old Tex

*Evolution tells us we might be the only intelligent life in the universe*
I'm guessing that whoever came up with the above sentence doesn't get out & meet people much. I've had dachshunds that were a hell of a lot smarter than most of the people that I've met lately.

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Abbey (01-27-2020),Fall River (01-29-2020),nonsqtr (01-22-2020)

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## Swedgin

There is also the concept of "Extinction Thresholds" which suggests that intelligent life inevitably destroy's itself, or, it's environment, before having the ability to "reach out" across the stars.

That would not stop radio waves, however, but....those are very difficult to discern, unless we know exactly what we are listening for.

As the theory goes, we may still have an "Extinction Event" in our future, which will keep us from fully achieving interstellar, or, advanced civilization.....

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## Canadianeye

Jury will be out for a while on this one. That's a lot of galaxies, planets, star/suns etc.

"With at least 200 billion *galaxies* out there (and possibly even more), we're very likely talking about a Universe filled with around 10/24th planets, or, for those of you who like it written out, around *1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets* in our observable Universe."

How Many Planets Are In The Universe? | ScienceBlogs

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nonsqtr (01-22-2020),SharetheHedge (01-22-2020)

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## gboisjo

> There is also the concept of "Extinction Thresholds" which suggests that intelligent life inevitably destroy's itself, or, it's environment, before having the ability to "reach out" across the stars.
> 
> That would not stop radio waves, however, but....those are very difficult to discern, unless we know exactly what we are listening for.
> 
> As the theory goes, we may still have an "Extinction Event" in our future, which will keep us from fully achieving interstellar, or, advanced civilization.....


I would agree with the "Extinction Theory", humanity has become a plague on Earth ..destroying everything in its wake. Mother Nature is well on its way towards a solution for human kind. A reckoning is headed our way IMHO.

300 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy alone most of which have solar systems with planets and moons. According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe. Do the math, its incomprehensible.

Just before Voyager 2 left or solar system towards interstellar space it took this image. A pale blue dot of planet Earth taken on February 14, 1990, by the Voyager 1 space probe from a record distance of about 3.7 billion miles. Are we significant yes, insignificant yes. 

442px-Pale_Blue_Dot.jpg

Pale Blue Dot - Wikipedia 

In the photograph, Earth's apparent size is less than a pixel; the planet appears as a tiny dot against the vastness of space, among bands of sunlight reflected by the camera.

 I think we humans give ourselves way to much credit for being special ..with our Gods pretending to know what its all about. Whats out there isn't known, science hasn't scratched the surface.

So bold statements about what is and isn't on this forum in regard to the Universe and life elsewhere doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

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## teeceetx

Statistically, to claim we are the only intelligent species in the universe , is patently improbable.  The universe is vast, and more and more data suggest the building blocks of life (and likely, life itself) here on Earth came on comets, asteroids and meteors.  Couple that with the unlikely assertion that modern humans EVOLVED from more primitive species (insufficient time), and there is a strong argument that there exists life elsewhere in the universe.

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## Swedgin

It's not so much that a species may destroy it's home world or solar system, but, rather that there is a "wall" that intelligent species hit, that either destroys them, or, knocks them back in technology/advancement.

So, there COULD be billions of worlds out there, with species close to our development (or, who may have already hit a "wall.."), and yet still limited to their own worlds.

Plus, we need to think of the how's, when's and where's that a species evolves.  Imagine, if there was abundant life under the ice of Europa.  And, suppose, that in that environment, something akin to the intellect of a dolphin evolved.  Well, that would probably be it's limit, as:  A.  They would not likely realize that there is a universe "beyond the ice layer;"  B.  IF they did break through the ice, would they even have "eyes????";  and C.  How would they every evolve technologies, such as metallurgy, etc.?


For all we know, the universe is teeming with intelligent life that will never be able to communicate with each other.......

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## Morning Star

The vastness of space and time is what will make ever finding extra-terrestrial intelligence nearly impossible if they exist.

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Fall River (01-29-2020),Swedgin (01-22-2020)

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## Neo

Even at its fastest our spacecraft can only travel at 5 miles per second, thats mind bogglingly fast, but to travel 1 light year going that speed it would take 37,500 years 

the nearest star to this planet is 4 light years, so as you can imagine it would be pointless even trying to send a spacecraft there.

Einsteins theory of relativity says that we can never achieve the speed of light, so it is pointless even thinking of going to the stars the distance is just too mind shatteringly too  far, its inconceivable to even think of the distance to these newly discovered planets in our galaxy.

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SharetheHedge (01-22-2020)

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## SharetheHedge

> Jury will be out for a while on this one. That's a lot of galaxies, planets, star/suns etc.
> 
> "With at least 200 billion *galaxies* out there (and possibly even more), we're very likely talking about a Universe filled with around 10/24th planets, or, for those of you who like it written out, around *1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets* in our observable Universe."
> 
> How Many Planets Are In The Universe? | ScienceBlogs



And that's only the OBSERVABLE universe. Those 200 billion galaxies may only be a FRACTION of what's out there. That's why I think, for example, the argument that evolution could not have occurred "by chance" is unsustainable. If there enough planets, then there WOULD be a chance.

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## SharetheHedge

> Even at its fastest our spacecraft can only travel at 5 miles per second, that’s mind bogglingly fast, but to travel 1 light year going that speed it would take 37,500 years 
> 
> the nearest star to this planet is 4 light years, so as you can imagine it would be pointless even trying to send a spacecraft there.
> 
> Einsteins theory of relativity says that we can never achieve the speed of light, so it is pointless even thinking of going to the stars the distance is just too mind shatteringly too  far, it’s inconceivable to even think of the distance to these newly discovered planets in our galaxy.



Unless the "wormhole" theory proves tenable - but I wouldn't bet on it...

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## Swedgin

FYI....LINKS


The Drake Equation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

The Fermi Paradox:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

The Great Filter (What I was incorrectly referring to as "extinction thresholds."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Filter



ALL kinds of reasons as to why we may not have "heard" Alien Civilizations.  (That is, if you do not believe they are currently visiting, ie, the "Grays...")

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## Morning Star

> Unless the "wormhole" theory proves tenable - but I wouldn't bet on it...


Even if the theory were true and stable worm holes could be created, it would take the power of a black hole.

Man will NEVER wield that kind of power.

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## Swedgin

> Unless the "wormhole" theory proves tenable - but I wouldn't bet on it...


Don't forget the theories concerning "WARPing" space.

We CAN travel to distant star systems, it would just take a really, really long time.

And, even if we can develop WARP or Wormhole technology, we would have to find a way to amass incredible amounts of energy.......

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Neo (01-22-2020)

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## Morning Star

Maybe we could get "God" to help us, I mean if he's not too busy fixing a sporting event for someone.

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## nonsqtr

> Even if the theory were true and stable worm holes could be created, it would take the power of a black hole.
> 
> Man will NEVER wield that kind of power.


Are you kidding? We're doing it already. Well... almost. We just got the elusive Higgs boson, and we're on to the quantum teleportation bit...

My guess is, there will be a few Chernobyls on the way to black hole energies, but we'll get there.

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Quark (01-22-2020)

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## Neo

Professor Brian cox to show an example sat in a pub, he put a pint mug in the centre of a table representing the sun, he then put 1/2 pint mugs around the small table representing earth and the outer planets to representing our solar system, the sun being 90 million miles from Earth etc etc.

Then he got up, walked out of the pub and got in a car, he drove 1/4 mile away, this represented the distance to our nearest sun in our neighbourhood. Even doing that it’s still not conceivable  to understand the huge distance in miles.

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## Morning Star

> Are you kidding? We're doing it already. Well... almost. We just got the elusive Higgs boson, and we're on to the quantum teleportation bit...
> 
> My guess is, there will be a few Chernobyls on the way to black hole energies, but we'll get there.


To create the power of a black hole would require controlling masses several times larger than the Sun. As well as the energy it projects. Identifying a sub-atomic particle is in no way the same thing.

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## Quark

There are physicists working on developing warp drive. That might be the only possibility. Of course, it might be possible to find couples willing to leave earth never to return living and producing on a space ship willing to travel where no man or women has gone before.

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## Neo

> There are physicists working on developing warp drive. That might be the only possibility. Of course, it might be possible to find couples willing to leave earth never to return living and producing on a space ship willing to travel where no man or women has gone before.


And each week I believe I will win the rollover lottery jackpot.

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Physics Hunter (01-26-2020)

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## Canadianeye

> There are physicists working on developing warp drive. That might be the only possibility. Of course, it might be possible to find couples willing to leave earth never to return living and producing on a space ship willing to travel where no man or women has gone before.


Producing? Like...children producing? I think turrible, turrible things would happen to that little babies body, bones, spine, organs etc.

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## FirstGenCanadian

I have said this many times on this forum.  If there is intelligent life out there, and they are space fairing, they know to stay the hell away from us.  We are extremely dangerous, and very childish.

They would have seen whatever signals we transmit across the globe, and know how violent we are with our own species.  They could imagine what we would do to them.  

Even here on this forum, there is biases on religion, race, and political stances.  WE ARE DANGEROUS.

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Quark (01-22-2020),Swedgin (01-24-2020)

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## Canadianeye

> I have said this many times on this forum.  If there is intelligent life out there, and they are space fairing, they know to stay the hell away from us.  We are extremely dangerous, and very childish.
> 
> They would have seen whatever signals we transmit across the globe, and know how violent we are with our own species.  They could imagine what we would do to them.  
> 
> Even here on this forum, there is biases on religion, race, and political stances.  WE ARE DANGEROUS.


We may be dangerous...but they are dumber than a box of rocks.

They always pick up and anal probe some toothless guy named Clem, and his wife Mable....never some guy from John Hopkins top of the line doctor or scientist or NASA CEO.

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Quark (01-22-2020)

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## Quark

> Producing? Like...children producing? I think turrible, turrible things would happen to that little babies body, bones, spine, organs etc.


Child producing. I'm sure by that time artificial gravity will be developed. We are a long ways from anything like that being possible.

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## nonsqtr

> The vastness of space and time is what will make ever finding extra-terrestrial intelligence nearly impossible if they exist.


Nah. That's thinking in the box.

"Vast" can be surmounted by even a lowly photon.

The information transmitted between correlated photons is instantaneous, it doesn't matter in the least how far apart they are. Apparently they could be at opposite ends of the universe and the effect would still apply.

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## Neo

In 1935, Albert Einstein and his colleague Nathan Rosen showed that black holes can theoretically be connected via ‘wormholes’ – shortcuts through space and time that could link up black holes light-years apart.
To create a wormhole on Earth, we’d first need a black hole. This is problematic: creating a black hole just a centimetre across would require crushing a mass roughly equal to that of the Earth down to this tiny size. Plus, in the 1960s theorists showed that wormholes would be incredibly unstable.
It could be possible to stabilise the wormhole using so-called ‘exotic matter’, whose existence is predicted by quantum theory. This weird stuff is expected to have an antigravitational effect, which could stop the wormhole collapsing. But no one has a clue how to do any of this. And even if they did, it might all be pointless: theorists now suspect that travelling via wormholes would actually take longer than simply taking the conventional route through space

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## gboisjo

The Chicxulub crater is an impact crater buried underneath the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico. Its center is located near the town of Chicxulub, after which the crater is named. It was formed by a large asteroid or comet some 7 miles in width killing 75% of all animal species on Earth, including all non-​avian dinosaurs. Its the sole reason why we're here today.



Brawn not brains ruled the Earth for some 300 million years. Lets face it, organic life has its limitations and brain size is not necessarily an advantage. Could it be the reason why contact with other civilizations (if they exist) have never occurred as far as we know.

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Canadianeye (01-23-2020)

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## Calypso Jones

> Are we alone in the universe? It comes down to whether intelligence is a probable outcome of natural selection, or an improbable fluke. By definition, probable events occur frequently, improbable events occur rarely – or once. Our evolutionary history shows that many key adaptations – not just intelligence, but complex animals, complex cells, photosynthesis, and life itself – were unique, one-off events, and therefore highly improbable. Our evolution may have been like winning the lottery … only far less likely. 
> https://apple.news/AHNXQomHLTOaIdto-aF5guw


based on this...it is highly unlikely that there is life in any capacity that we can imagine or interact with anywhere in the universe.

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Neo (01-24-2020)

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## Morning Star

> Nah. That's thinking in the box.
> 
> "Vast" can be surmounted by even a lowly photon.
> 
> The information transmitted between correlated photons is instantaneous, it doesn't matter in the least how far apart they are. Apparently they could be at opposite ends of the universe and the effect would still apply.


Maybe, but as of yet no one has figured out a way to convey information by way of entanglement.

Then the life forms on the other end would need to know how to do so as well. 

Plus how do you get the entangled particle to what destination? What time will it arrive? Instantaneous is relative, direction through space and relative position changes time as well.

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## Canadianeye

> The Chicxulub crater is an impact crater buried underneath the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico. Its center is located near the town of Chicxulub, after which the crater is named. It was formed by a large asteroid or comet some 7 miles in width killing 75% of all animal species on Earth, including all non-​avian dinosaurs. Its the sole reason why we're here today.
> 
> 
> 
> Brawn not brains ruled the Earth for some 300 million years. Lets face it, organic life has its limitations and brain size is not necessarily an advantage. Could it be the reason why contact with other civilizations (if they exist) have never occurred as far as we know.


6 thousand years ago...or 66 million years ago?

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## gboisjo

_Its an incredible thing we're part of ..the idea we as humans can ask these questions "whats out there" "why are we here" "what was prior to the big bang" are for me are all part of my agnostic way of thinking. It boggles my mind with amazement and awe ..NASA is loaded with like minded individuals.

Is the Universe infinite ..does it reach out and expand forever or does it come back in on its self over and over again with an infinite amount of big bangs as some theories suggest ..is there a creator of some sort._

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## gboisjo

> 6 thousand years ago...or 66 million years ago?


_I'm an Agnostic ..I think you get my drift._

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Canadianeye (01-23-2020)

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## Canadianeye

> _I'm an Agnostic ..I think you get my drift._


I'm with the 66 million crowd.

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gboisjo (01-24-2020)

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## nonsqtr

Regarding the thread title - the loaded word is "intelligent".

At this point, we have no idea what that really is.

The emerging consensus which I've posted in another thread, is that our "awareness" (which underlies our "intelligence") has a PHYSICAL mechanism - and it just so happens that the geometry of it has a LOT in common with the geometry of the universe at large. (In other words they're so similar it leads one to conclude they're probably the same thing).

I'm going to suggest, there's something more important than intelligence - I'll call it "capability". Human capability is limited by our biology, we can only run so fast, lift so much weight, solve so many problems at once. Our "power" as humans is our intelligence in top of our capability. If you put the same intelligence on top of greater capability, things get a little scary, don't they?

Humans use technology to increase our capability - but there are creatures with more inherent BIOLIGICAL capability - birds for instance can sense the Earth's magnetic field, and sharks can sense electric fields in the water. You can imagine a human being that could directly generate EM fields and place them in space, that would be a capability that would leave other humans at a significant disadvantage and it's a short step from sensing to placement.

It seems to me that understanding what's "inside" will help us understand what's "outside".

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gboisjo (01-24-2020),Swedgin (01-24-2020)

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## gboisjo

> I'm with the 66 million crowd.


_Here's a tidbit for you Canadianeye >

We can't feel Earth rotating or moving because we're all moving with it ..at the same constant speed. Earth spins on its axis once in every 24-hour day. At Earth's equator, the speed of Earth's spin is about 1,000 miles per hour 

Our orbital speed around the sun is about 67,000 mph. We can calculate that with basic geometry. 

Yes, our entire solar system orbits around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. We are moving at an average velocity of 514,495 miles per hour. But even at that high rate ..it still takes us about 230 million years to make one complete orbit around the Milky Way! Its estimated our solar system has orbited the center 20 times in our 5 million year history.

sun-milky-way-location-Caltech.jpg

And the icing on the cake is the Milky Way Galaxy is expanding outwards at an incredible 1.3 million mph.

So, point is this ..when you think your standing still ..your really not._

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Canadianeye (01-24-2020)

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## Morning Star

If you think your in control .... your really not.

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gboisjo (01-24-2020)

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## Swedgin

> There are physicists working on developing warp drive. That might be the only possibility. Of course, it might be possible to find couples willing to leave earth never to return living and producing on a space ship willing to travel where no man or women has gone before.


I do believe, that if we continue, there will be a human "race" that will evolve in 0 or, very light, gravity.

They will spend their entire lives on asteroids, small moons, or ships.

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## Swedgin

> I have said this many times on this forum.  If there is intelligent life out there, and they are space fairing, they know to stay the hell away from us.  We are extremely dangerous, and very childish.
> 
> They would have seen whatever signals we transmit across the globe, and know how violent we are with our own species.  They could imagine what we would do to them.  
> 
> Even here on this forum, there is biases on religion, race, and political stances.  WE ARE DANGEROUS.


Dangerous in temperment, perhaps, BUT...if a species can travel across the void of space, especially at speeds faster than light....we would be about as threatening as an Ant waving a speck of dust at curious Gorilla........

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FirstGenCanadian (01-24-2020),gboisjo (01-24-2020)

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## Morning Star

> I do believe, that if we continue, there will be a human "race" that will evolve in 0 or, very light, gravity.
> 
> They will spend their entire lives on asteroids, small moons, or ships.


Evidence so far is not too promising on the viability of procreation in space. .... but we are working on it.

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gboisjo (01-24-2020),Swedgin (01-27-2020)

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## MisterVeritis

> Are we alone in the universe? It comes down to whether intelligence is a probable outcome of natural selection, or an improbable fluke. By definition, probable events occur frequently, improbable events occur rarely  or once. Our evolutionary history shows that many key adaptations  not just intelligence, but complex animals, complex cells, photosynthesis, and life itself  were unique, one-off events, and therefore highly improbable. Our evolution may have been like winning the lottery  only far less likely.


The theory of evolution tells us no such thing.

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Morning Star (01-24-2020),Quark (01-24-2020)

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## FirstGenCanadian

> Dangerous in temperment, perhaps, BUT...if a species can travel across the void of space, especially at speeds faster than light....we would be about as threatening as an Ant waving a speck of dust at curious Gorilla........


Ants, with nuclear weapons.   :Dontknow:

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## Morning Star

> Ants, with nuclear weapons.


Start at 1:00

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## Swedgin

> Ants, with nuclear weapons.


Those nukes are great for blowing our own Anthills up, but....not much of a threat against an alien homeworld 50 lightyears away......

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## FirstGenCanadian

> Those nukes are great for blowing our own Anthills up, but....not much of a threat against an alien homeworld 50 lightyears away......


Assuming they have that kind of power, why wasn't that done already?

Personally, I am of the opinion, we have been blacklisted.  Amazing that we can see almost anywhere in the universe, except beyond the Kuiper's belt, just outside the orbit of Pluto.  There has to be some light back there, from other stars.  Yet, we see nothing.  Again, I am spitballing, and have no real evidence to support my opinions.

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nonsqtr (01-26-2020)

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## gboisjo

> Are we alone in the universe? It comes down to whether intelligence is a probable outcome of natural selection, or an improbable fluke. By definition, probable events occur frequently, improbable events occur rarely  or once. Our evolutionary history shows that many key adaptations  not just intelligence, but complex animals, complex cells, photosynthesis, and life itself  were unique, one-off events, and therefore highly improbable. Our evolution may have been like winning the lottery  only far less likely. 
> https://apple.news/AHNXQomHLTOaIdto-aF5guw


_From the article >_




> And yet, were here. That must count for something, right? If evolution gets lucky one in 100 trillion times, what are the odds we happen to be on a planet where it happened? Actually, the odds of being on that improbable world are 100%, because we couldnt have this conversation on a world where photosynthesis, complex cells, or animals didnt evolve. Thats the anthropic principle: Earths history must have allowed intelligent life to evolve, or we wouldnt be here to ponder it.
> 
> Intelligence seems to depend on a chain of improbable events. But given the vast number of planets, then like an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of typewriters to write Hamlet, its bound to evolve somewhere. The improbable result was us.


_Earth did allow for intelligent life to evolve. But the entire direction of evolution from its very beginning with the tiniest one cell creature was towards something not human. It took a fluke 7 mile wide comet to erase the dinosaurs from Earth ..who had ruled for some 200 million years ..compare that to our mere 200 thousand years of existence. It begs the question what would have the dinosaurs evolved into absent the sudden demise._ 

790px-LA-Triceratops_mount-2.jpg

_So, is the unfettered direction of life if it exist else where more in line with beast and brawn. In our modern era birds and crocodiles offer the best direction evolution would have taken minus the comets devastating impact. Its important to remember ..small mammals lived under the dinosaurs foot with zero chance of bigger and better things._

Dinosaur - Wikipedia

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## Neo

> Those nukes are great for blowing our own Anthills up, but....not much of a threat against an alien homeworld 50 lightyears away......


An alien home world 50 light years away would be no threat at all, at 5 miles per second it would take 1.8million years to get there and for them to get here.

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## nonsqtr

> Maybe, but as of yet no one has figured out a way to convey information by way of entanglement.


The information is "in" the entanglement. That's why it's an entanglement.




> Then the life forms on the other end would need to know how to do so as well.


Or, we use the "instantaneous" channel to communicate with them, or even reach out to them.




> Plus how do you get the entangled particle to what destination? What time will it arrive? Instantaneous is relative, direction through space and relative position changes time as well.


Ha ha - in an Einsteinian universe, but we're not living in an Einsteinian universe. We're living in a quantum entangled universe.

So, in "classical" quantum mechanics, there are two views, commonly called the Heisenberg view and the Schrodinger view. The difference is how you treat the time variable.

And you'll notice, that BOTH views make some pretty dramatic assumptions about time.

In some formulation's, time becomes an operator, an "observable", for which one must solve. These types of formulations, in my opinion, are closer to the mark.

Again in my opinion, there are different kinds of time. There at least two different kinds, and maybe a third we can already identify.

For example, in the quantum formulation the variable t is "implicit" in formulations like E=hf. The time being described there is "spin", and I propose it's a fundamentally different KIND of time than the macroscopic time addressed by relativity.

How do we know this? Because of entanglement. The quantum theory actually violates relativity on several levels, but this is the most important one.

Einstein's relativity says there's a maximum "speed" at which we can move around in spacetime. Speed being a euphemism for "there's only so fast things can change".

Entanglement violates this principle by apparently "connecting" two (or more) points in space, in such a way that the relativistic limits no longer apply. The reason given is that the wave functions themselves are "joined", there's only one, not two.

But what is a wave function? It's a time "dependent" evolution. We assumed this from the very beginning when we created the thing - it has a "frequency".

Strange as it may seem, this has everything to do with the construction I showed you in the other thread about brain stuff. The same kind of thing goes on here, there is a mapping from a line to a circle and it's invoked by "compactification", and whenever you do this you must ALREADY be topologically embedded in a higher dimension because if you weren't you couldn't compactify at all.

In my opinion what we're seeing with entanglement is a physical manifestation of this dimension.

Math-wise, it means our density matrix grows. The off diagonal terms are still the correlations, but now there's an extra row and column (at least), and so this whole concept of "projection" becomes hugely important. So for instance, I showed you in the brain thread, how the origin and the points at infinity become "the same point in physical time", and perhaps the exact same thing is going on here.

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## nonsqtr

> Assuming they have that kind of power, why wasn't that done already?
> 
> Personally, I am of the opinion, we have been blacklisted.  Amazing that we can see almost anywhere in the universe, except beyond the Kuiper's belt, just outside the orbit of Pluto.  There has to be some light back there, from other stars.  Yet, we see nothing.  Again, I am spitballing, and have no real evidence to support my opinions.


 :Smiley ROFLMAO: 

"We'll never work in this town again".  :Wink:

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FirstGenCanadian (01-26-2020)

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## nonsqtr

> Maybe, but as of yet no one has figured out a way to convey information by way of entanglement.
> 
> Then the life forms on the other end would need to know how to do so as well. 
> 
> Plus how do you get the entangled particle to what destination? What time will it arrive? Instantaneous is relative, direction through space and relative position changes time as well.


Regarding the second point -

String theory is about to undergo its first experimental test. It predicts correlations in the microwave background radiation, which is supposedly about 12 billion years old.

So if this pans out, I think we need to pretty much reformulate "everything". I mean... it stands to reason that if you can get magnetic filings to line up, you can get strings to line up too.

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## Physics Hunter

> Statistically, to claim we are the only intelligent species in the universe , is patently improbable.  The universe is vast, and more and more data suggest the building blocks of life (and likely, life itself) here on Earth came on comets, asteroids and meteors.  *Couple that with the unlikely assertion that modern humans EVOLVED from more primitive species (insufficient time)*, and there is a strong argument that there exists life elsewhere in the universe.


No way!!  Nobody believes that but me.  I have been all over the internet and I thought I was the only one...

 :Nono:

----------


## Physics Hunter

> Maybe we could get "God" to help us, I mean if he's not too busy fixing a sporting event for someone.


Why would God help Humans to spread Godlessness to the rest of the universe?

One of our first TV broadcasts was Hitler, our record on this already sucks.

----------


## nonsqtr

Life will evolve anywhere there is a niche for it.

There are tens of billions of class M planets in our galaxy alone.

The chances of "life elsewhere" are astronomical. Practically 1.

----------


## Physics Hunter

> Nah. That's thinking in the box.
> 
> "Vast" can be surmounted by even a lowly photon.
> 
> The information transmitted between correlated photons is instantaneous, it doesn't matter in the least how far apart they are. Apparently they could be at opposite ends of the universe and the effect would still apply.


Spooky action at a distance is still governed by the speed of light...

----------


## nonsqtr

> Why would God help Humans to spread Godlessness to the rest of the universe?
> 
> One of our first TV broadcasts was Hitler, our record on this already sucks.


You're confused.

God doesn't do that.

Here's what God does:

----------


## nonsqtr

> Spooky action at a distance is still governed by the speed of light...


Really?

You know this... how?

----------


## Physics Hunter

> Life will evolve anywhere there is a niche for it.
> 
> There are tens of billions of class M planets in our galaxy alone.
> 
> The chances of "life elsewhere" are astronomical. Practically 1.



Yes, assuming that spherical chicken (old Physics joke), there should be independently generated and evolved life under every rock on earth, and on every space rock that has a lot of gravity (but not too much) or a local (but not too local) Fusion reactor.

The universe should be crawling and conversing with critters millions of years older than us that look at us as rats, children, or food.

So far the only Alien that we have provable evidence of was the son of a Jewish carpenter that claimed to be God.
I'm quite comfortable with that.

----------


## nonsqtr

> Yes, assuming that spherical chicken (old Physics joke), there should be independently generated and evolved life under every rock on earth, and on every space rock that has a lot of gravity (but not too much) or a local (but not too local) Fusion reactor.
> 
> The universe should be crawling and conversing with critters millions of years older than us that look at us as rats, children, or food.
> 
> So far the only Alien that we have provable evidence of was the son of a Jewish carpenter that claimed to be God.
> I'm quite comfortable with that.


Um.... you forgot "mates". lol  :Wink:

----------


## Physics Hunter

> Really?
> 
> You know this... how?


I expected more of you.

To send the split Photon out to sense what you want to perceive, you have to send a Photon.
Photons travel at the speed of light.  When they get to their destination they may report (unmeasured new science) near instantaneously to their entangled twin that you kept running around in something like an RLG for several thousand years.  However, you will be long dead and your purpose for sending such most likely long forgotten.  

I really do have a Physics degree and I know how stuff works.

----------


## nonsqtr

> Yes, assuming that spherical chicken (old Physics joke), there should be independently generated and evolved life under every rock on earth, and on every space rock that has a lot of gravity (but not too much) or a local (but not too local) Fusion reactor.
> 
> The universe should be crawling and conversing with critters millions of years older than us that look at us as rats, children, or food.
> 
> So far the only Alien that we have provable evidence of was the son of a Jewish carpenter that claimed to be God.
> I'm quite comfortable with that.


At least three kinds of spores can survive in space: mold, bacterial, and mushrooms.

----------


## Physics Hunter

> Um.... you forgot "mates". lol



Run while you can.

----------


## nonsqtr

> I expected more of you.
> 
> To send the split Photon out to sense what you want to perceive, you have to send a Photon.
> Photons travel at the speed of light.  When they get to their destination they may report (unmeasured new science) near instantaneously to their entangled twin that you kept running around in something like an RLG for several thousand years.  However, you will be long dead and your purpose for sending such most likely long forgotten.  
> 
> I really do have a Physics degree and I know how stuff works.


No. You said something different.

Spooky action at a distance has nothing to do with photons.

Or... show that it does.

----------


## nonsqtr

> No. You said something different.
> 
> Spooky action at a distance has nothing to do with photons.
> 
> Or... show that it does.


Heh heh - physicist heads explode.  :Smiley ROFLMAO: 

So... you know about cohomologies?

----------


## Physics Hunter

> No. You said something different.
> 
> Spooky action at a distance has nothing to do with photons.
> 
> Or... show that it does.


Carry on.  My response to the the research was "My God".  (And I don't drag in the almighty where He is unwarranted.)
The researcher invited me to dinner.  

But do prattle on.

----------


## nonsqtr

> Carry on.  My response to the the research was "My God".  (And I don't drag in the almighty where He is unwarranted.)
> The researcher invited me to dinner.  
> 
> But do prattle on.


No, no prattling.

I was curious about your physics expertise, it's a broad field.

----------


## nonsqtr

> I expected more of you.
> 
> To send the split Photon out to sense what you want to perceive, you have to send a Photon.
> Photons travel at the speed of light.  When they get to their destination they may report (unmeasured new science) near instantaneously to their entangled twin that you kept running around in something like an RLG for several thousand years.  However, you will be long dead and your purpose for sending such most likely long forgotten.  
> 
> I really do have a Physics degree and I know how stuff works.


Psst... Chinese physicists measure speed of Einstein: At least 10,000 times faster than light - ExtremeTech

----------


## Calypso Jones

> It's not so much that a species may destroy it's home world or solar system, but, rather that there is a "wall" that intelligent species hit, that either destroys them, or, knocks them back in technology/advancement.
> 
> So, there COULD be billions of worlds out there, with species close to our development (or, who may have already hit a "wall.."), and yet still limited to their own worlds.
> 
> Plus, we need to think of the how's, when's and where's that a species evolves.  Imagine, if there was abundant life under the ice of Europa.  And, suppose, that in that environment, something akin to the intellect of a dolphin evolved.  Well, that would probably be it's limit, as:  A.  They would not likely realize that there is a universe "beyond the ice layer;"  B.  IF they did break through the ice, would they even have "eyes????";  and C.  How would they every evolve technologies, such as metallurgy, etc.?
> 
> 
> For all we know, the universe is teeming with intelligent life that will never be able to communicate with each other.......


how many intelligent species has this happened to?

----------


## nonsqtr

> The theory of evolution tells us no such thing.


Here's my view:

"Life" is a fundamental physical property of the universe. It begins way down low at a very fundamental level - for instance - there is no such thing as "empty" space. There are quantum fluctuations in a vacuum, which will (sometimes) give rise to particles, the particles (sometimes) bind into atoms, the atoms (sometimes) form molecules, ... it's pretty logical, it's all building blocks off the same fundamental thing. "Empty" space creates life.

So I've been on a bit of a research track investigating one particular angle of this. It's this geometric concept called "compactification". My first exposure to it was as a computer trick, then I learned about the trick part. But this concept at least in part (supposedly) explains why the universe has 12 dimensions but we only experience 4 - and the fourth one has special properties. The big takeaway is the Standard Model actually means constraints, and what that means is you're actually describing geometry.

So like, the view of life is basically "complexity", built around some very simple building blocks - and as you increase in complexity you get higher order complexities, like meta-complexity - and all of this is fundamentally structural and geometric.

If you're invoking "quantum fields" you're basically snapping your fingers and creating extra dimensions ANYWAY, so, it seems to be the biological order of things can be traced all the way back to the fundamental geometry of the universe. Life occurs "because" we have this geometry.

And it's not any ordinary geometry, it's not only higher dimensional, but it "maps" itself into fractional and statistically self similar geometries that determine for instance the shape of a leaf - or the shape of an animal - what some people might call "species".

The only thing intuitively in our world that isn't about shape (the three spatial dimensions), is this oddball thing called time - and what we see in evolution is that it accelerates, it took a billion years to get an amoeba and only half a billion to proliferate most of the animal kingdom.

----------


## nonsqtr

> how many intelligent species has this happened to?


What if we're the first?

I mean, statistically, there's a chance we're the first.

So instead of them seeding us, it'll be the other way around.

"Be fruitful and multiply", right?  :Smile:

----------


## nonsqtr

> Carry on.  My response to the the research was "My God".  (And I don't drag in the almighty where He is unwarranted.)
> The researcher invited me to dinner.  
> 
> But do prattle on.


Ok, I'll prattle. Ha ha.

Spooky action at a distance "is" entanglement.

All entanglements are "combined" wave functions, therefore by definition they can't be photons.

 :Tongue20: 

lol - wink -  :Wink: 

If we are to believe the Standard Model, a "particle" is actually a pretty complex construction. It requires many different fields to come together in just the right way. The reason it happens is the reason entanglements happen - they are "stable" in the sense that they persist. The stability of matter is not a given, there are still a whole lot of problem under analysis.

But generally speaking the lower energy states tend to be more stable - what's fascinating is some of the translocations they've observed in the LHC, where a particle will simply disappear and reappear somewhere else. That's a lot of complexity to translocate all at once.

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## Neo

Maybe we should have a Poll to see how many members think 

1/we will one day harness the speed of light 
2/ we will live on other worlds
3/ we won’t live on other worlds
4/we will one day be visited by aliens.
5/ aliens do not exist in our galaxy

----------



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## HawkTheSlayer

> Maybe we should have a Poll to see how many members think 
> 
> 1/we will one day harness the speed of light 
> 2/ we will live on other worlds
> 3/ we won’t live on other worlds
> 4/we will one day be visited by aliens.
> 5/ aliens do not exist in our galaxy


I): I hope not. I need more sleep.
2) , 3) ,4) , 5): Progressive, liberal, democrat socialists _Are_ aliens that live in another world.

----------


## MrMike

Intelligent life here on Earth?  In many cases I have my doubts...

----------



----------


## gboisjo

> I): I hope not. I need more sleep.
> 2) , 3) ,4) , 5): Progressive, liberal, democrat socialists _Are_ aliens that live in another world.


_Couldn't help bring your extreme political bias into a scientific discussion ..could you._

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## HawkTheSlayer

> Intelligent life here on Earth?  In many cases I have my doubts...


His placard should be shortened to "rank" member.

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## HawkTheSlayer

> _Couldn't help bring your extreme political bias into a scientific discussion ..could you._


In the name of "intelligent" life.

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## Gator Monroe

One Planet One people ? Oh please ...

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## MrMike

> One Planet One people ? Oh please ...


_It takes a village..._ (idiot: Hillary Clinton)

btw... the news never noted that Hillary borrowed her material (idea) from another author.  That hag is one reason aliens likely avoid Earth.

*It Takes a Village by Jane Cowen-Fletcher, published in 1994It Takes a Village: And Other Lessons Children Teach Us, by Hillary Rodham Clinton, published in 1996*

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Gator Monroe (01-26-2020)

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## Neo

1/we will one day harness the speed of light ........    no
2/ we will live on other worlds.                 ............no
3/ we won’t live on other worlds.             ............yes
4/we will one day be visited by aliens.      .............no
5/ aliens do not exist in our galaxy.          .............Yes

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MrMike (01-26-2020)

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## MrMike

> _Couldn't help bring your extreme political bias into a scientific discussion ..could you._


Me either... (guilty as charged)

Call it sham impeachment driven PTSD?   :Dontknow:

----------


## Calypso Jones

Did you know that Daniel,. You know the Bible Daniel was a student of science and was placed at the head of a group of group of scientists, astrologers, magicians, philosophers, later known as magi.  I'm sure you know that term.  It was a Babylonian caste whose head was called archi-magus and Daniel was placed in that position by Nebuchadnezzar.

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## Calypso Jones

Im mentioning this because some people are under the impression that humans in 600-500 bc were ignorant knuckle dragging goatherders.    Babylonian astronomers mapped out the heavens,. Knew a year was 365 and a quarter day long. Invented water clock and sun dial.  Two outstanding Babylonian astronomers were nabu-rimmanus and Kidinnu.  The founders of astronomical science.

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Hillofbeans (01-27-2020)

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## nonsqtr

> _Couldn't help bring your extreme political bias into a scientific discussion ..could you._


Political?

Nah, that's not extreme, but it's not accurate either.

The horrible truth is, they live in OUR world.

 :Wink: 

 :Sofa:

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## gboisjo

> 1/we will one day harness the speed of light ........    no
> 2/ we will live on other worlds.                 ............no
> 3/ we wont live on other worlds.             ............yes
> 4/we will one day be visited by aliens.      .............no
> 5/ aliens do not exist in our galaxy.          .............Yes


_Agreed.._

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## Morning Star

> Im mentioning this because some people are under the impression that humans in 600-500 bc were ignorant knuckle dragging goatherders.    Babylonian astronomers mapped out the heavens,. Knew a year was 365 and a quarter day long. Invented water clock and sun dial.  Two outstanding Babylonian astronomers were nabu-rimmanus and Kidinnu.  The founders of astronomical science.


Yet when these astrologers found the heavens didn't match the religious dogma they were burned at the stake.

Don't try to conflate those believers who sought the truth with the ignorance of the church and man made religion.

Early biologists made great contributions to medicine too, but at their own peril, if the church found out they would be burned at the stake for heresy and witchcraft.

We see this even today, Science and Religious dogma are incompatible, but not because science rules out "God", but because science rules out the dogma. The church relies on the dogma to get the people filling the collection plates. The church can sell absurd stories like Noah's Ark to indoctrinate children before they develop any critical thinking skills and once indoctrinated, no amount of facts or even common sense can release the grip of stupid the church has on them.

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gboisjo (01-27-2020)

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## gboisjo

> Did you know that Daniel,. You know the Bible Daniel was a student of science and was placed at the head of a group of group of scientists, astrologers, magicians, philosophers, later known as magi.  I'm sure you know that term.  It was a Babylonian caste whose head was called archi-magus and Daniel was placed in that position by Nebuchadnezzar.


_5th, 6th and 7th century BC was all about visions, magic and superstition no matter the place ..it trumped and colored everything. Eventually it was the Greeks and Romans, the founders of Western Civilization who advanced science and modernity. 

Religion for the most part holds people back as evidenced by the Middle East today._

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Morning Star (01-27-2020)

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## Canadianeye

> _5th, 6th and 7th century BC was all about visions, magic and superstition no matter the place ..it trumped and colored everything. Eventually it was the Greeks and Romans, the founders of Western Civilization who advanced science and modernity. 
> 
> Religion for the most part holds people back as evidenced by the Middle East today._


That statement produces nothing in regards to getting at the root. Almost all will agree to one extent or another...that yes, *religion* has been perverted. Christians will say this quite a bit.

Their observation of that always produces the backdrop that their deity isn't about religion(s)...it is about the deity. The deity is pure, all powerful, singularly unique and all knowing of everything - past, present and future.

So the belief in the deity(s) is the root, and that will never (or rarely) be changed in the believer.

The believers new born baby dies due to an ailment. Gods will, or, Satans world.
The believers baby lives after an ailment. Compassionate loving God saved my baby.

It is an unwinnable debate that is exercised in the internal root belief of a deity(s) by a believer in deities.

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## Morning Star

> _Religion for the most part holds people back as evidenced by the Middle East today._


I can't imagine what the world would be like today if, instead of 5,000 of ignorance, we had 5,000 years of science.

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## Canadianeye

> I can't imagine what the world would be like today if, instead of 5,000 of ignorance, we had 5,000 years of science.


I've often wondered that. I think it would be a lot worse off, without the centuries long religious/deities push regarding morality, justice, liberty in societies.

My opinion.

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## Calypso Jones

> Yet when these astrologers found the heavens didn't match the religious dogma they were burned at the stake.
> 
> Don't try to conflate those believers who sought the truth with the ignorance of the church and man made religion.
> 
> Early biologists made great contributions to medicine too, but at their own peril, if the church found out they would be burned at the stake for heresy and witchcraft.
> 
> We see this even today, Science and Religious dogma are incompatible, but not because science rules out "God", but because science rules out the dogma. The church relies on the dogma to get the people filling the collection plates. The church can sell absurd stories like Noah's Ark to indoctrinate children before they develop any critical thinking skills and once indoctrinated, no amount of facts or even common sense can release the grip of stupid the church has on them.


they were Babylonians.    Babylonian gods required the sacrifice of their children.   and if wise men refused to bow a knee to a statue they were thrown in a furnace so hot that it killed the guards who were placing them in it.

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## Morning Star

> I've often wondered that. I think it would be a lot worse off, without the centuries long religious/deities push regarding morality, justice, liberty in societies.
> 
> My opinion.


I wonder that myself. As great as all our science and technology has been, if you really look at the quality of life and our ability to harmonize with nature and with each other, we were better off before it.

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Canadianeye (01-28-2020)

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## Morning Star

> they were Babylonians.


I think I made my general point no matter what the religion of the day was, science was always a threat.

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## Swedgin

> I can't imagine what the world would be like today if, instead of 5,000 of ignorance, we had 5,000 years of science.


Well, we HAVE had roughly 2,000 years of Science.  (although the Dark Ages did throw a cover over all that for a few hundred years.)

But, I do not feel that "Religion, Spiritualism, Magic, etc." really hold us back, all that much, when it comes to scientific discovery.

Just the baser parts of our humanity.  

Science does not seem to help much with that, in any shape, form, or fashion......

----------


## Swedgin

> Evidence so far is not too promising on the viability of procreation in space. .... but we are working on it.


The MAJOR issue is carrying the fetus.  

But, whatever the case, IF humans spend much time in space, the physical nature of those humans will change drastically, perhaps within a few generations.

(GRAVITY---is the double-edged sword, when it comes to humanity exploring space.  On the one hand, it makes it expensive as hell for us to GET IN to space.  But, then, once we are there, the lack of, plays havoc on our bodies.....)

----------


## Morning Star

> The MAJOR issue is carrying the fetus.  
> 
> But, whatever the case, IF humans spend much time in space, the physical nature of those humans will change drastically, perhaps within a few generations.
> 
> (GRAVITY---is the double-edged sword, when it comes to humanity exploring space.  On the one hand, it makes it expensive as hell for us to GET IN to space.  But, then, once we are there, the lack of, plays havoc on our bodies.....)


The issue will be that the human body will not evolve fast enough, it takes too long generationally.

We would have to engineer fetuses and harvest eggs as soon as the children were able to produce viable zygotes.

How many generations it would take, unknown? That is even provided each generation's successive genetic alteration is successful.

Then I'm sure we will get some whiny ass bitches complaining about eugenics and playing "God" blah, blah, blah  :Tongue20:

----------


## Morning Star

> Well, we HAVE had roughly 2,000 years of Science.  (although the Dark Ages did throw a cover over all that for a few hundred years.)
> 
> But, I do not feel that "Religion, Spiritualism, Magic, etc." really hold us back, all that much, when it comes to scientific discovery.
> 
> Just the baser parts of our humanity.  
> 
> Science does not seem to help much with that, in any shape, form, or fashion......


No, more like 100+ years of any real substantial science.

----------


## Swedgin

> No, more like 100+ years of any real substantial science.


From where you and I are sitting, yes.

But, that shouldn't take away from the monumental leaps made by humanity's ancestors.

(Let's not forget that much of what they learned, has been lost due to dark ages, etc.  WHO KNOWS what was lost when the Library at Alexandria burned.....)

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Morning Star (01-27-2020)

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## Morning Star

> From where you and I are sitting, yes.
> 
> But, that shouldn't take away from the monumental leaps made by humanity's ancestors.
> 
> (Let's not forget that much of what they learned, has been lost due to dark ages, etc.  WHO KNOWS what was lost when the Library at Alexandria burned.....)


The point is, if we still had religion running the world like they did in the Dark Ages, we would still be living in the 1400s.

----------


## Swedgin

> The point is, if we still had religion running the world like they did in the Dark Ages, we would still be living in the 1400s.


I don't think that is entirely accurate.

At one time, the Church was in the forefront of Science.  Until Science got in the way of the dogma that many in the Church had CREATED, all in support of their OWN reach for power.

Many people think that Religion holds science back, and, certainly that argument can be made in regards to the Catholic Church, during the Dark Ages.  BUT, on the other hand.....how many of those Catholic Monastaries kept and protected manuscripts and information from the Classical period?  Sure, the Church did NOT want a lot of this out there, but...for some reason, they did keep it.  

The Science of GENETICS was largely discovered and advanced in a monastery.

I am of the opinion, that Religion did not so much "hold us back," as, the PRINTING PRESS launched us forward.  (And, in doing so, only THEN did the written word and Science become a threat to the Church.  But, let's not forget....many Catholic Priests from the Middle Ages did not even want their own Parishoners "reading the Bible" on their own.  These Priests seemed to enjoy the wealth, power and status that came with TELLING people what "God's Book" says.....)

It just seems that prior to Guttenburg's Bible, the Church didn't take much issue with philosophers and scientists.

ONLY when the power of reading (IMMENSE POWER for the Individual!!!) was brought to ALL, did the Powers that Be start getting "concerned" with such matters.......

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Neo (01-27-2020)

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## nonsqtr

> I wonder that myself. As great as all our science and technology has been, if you really look at the quality of life and our ability to harmonize with nature and with each other, we were better off before it.


Nah. Human nature hasn't changed in ten thousand years. Has it?

----------


## gboisjo

Fairy tales, how people in modern day can conclude human beings were created some six thousand years ago is an affront to science . Or Christ really did walk on water.  Or feeding of the 5,000, with seven loaves of bread and two fish reported by Matthew 15 (Matthew 15:32-39) and Mark 8 ..the feeding of the 5,000 also known as the "miracle of the five loaves and two fish" ..all of these so called miracles are not compatible with science today ..maybe 2000 years ago when everyone thought the earth was flat. 

jesus_walking_water_mann.jpeg 

One must choose to be a person of learning, science, and reason, or choose to embrace religion, dogma, and faith ..can't do both IMHO, differences are not reconcilable. Won't find many active Christians or Muslims working at NASA ..more of the Agnostic persuasion, I'm sure.  

From the Christian perspective is the idea that faith trumps reason, God as understood by Christians and Muslims blesses us with a bit of reason is at its core, a crock of do do and the basis of its incompatibility.

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Morning Star (01-28-2020)

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## Swedgin

> The issue will be that the human body will not evolve fast enough, it takes too long generationally.


--Just talking out my ass here, because I really DO NOT KNOW, but....I think that "evolution" may occur a bit faster than we have assumed.  




> We would have to engineer fetuses and harvest eggs as soon as the children were able to produce viable zygotes.
> 
> How many generations it would take, unknown? That is even provided each generation's successive genetic alteration is successful.


--Exactly.  We will have the technology to do all that, very soon.  STILL need to be careful not to fuck something up, though.  (Wouldn't be very good, if we designed a fetus to be more intelligent, but, with a high liklihood of blindess....)




> Then I'm sure we will get some whiny ass bitches complaining about eugenics and playing "God" blah, blah, blah


--We SHOULD be VERY, VERY careful.  On multiple levels.  BUT....if we are to inhabit new worlds, it may be easier changing ourselves, than terraforming a planet.



The issue, of course, with those who will live their entire lives in 0-G are thinks like bone mass, how organs, muscles, etc. grow, and other things that gravity effects over time.....

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Morning Star (01-28-2020)

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## Morning Star

If we could transfer our consciousness into a machine, we could conquer space easily.

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Swedgin (01-28-2020)

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## Swedgin

> If we could transfer our consciousness into a machine, we could conquer space easily.


Lots of Sci Fi stories have touched on that idea.

Have you watched "Altered Carbon" on Netflix?

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## Morning Star

> Lots of Sci Fi stories have touched on that idea.
> 
> Have you watched "Altered Carbon" on Netflix?


I think I might have caught one or two.

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## Morning Star

> --Just talking out my ass here, because I really DO NOT KNOW, but....I think that "evolution" may occur a bit faster than we have assumed.


This issue is that evolution is generational, you would have to make a change then wait until the child can produce viable zygotes before the next change can be applied.

It's the reason why mice are used for testing, short time between generations. Fruit flies even better but too far distant from human anatomy to do any real relative tests.

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Swedgin (01-29-2020)

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## gboisjo

With the discovery of lunar water at the lunar poles by Chandrayaan-1 in 20082009 and huge sources of titanium has renewed interest in our Moon. A colony at one of the lunar poles would allow the colony to take advantage of the continuous sunlight there for generating solar power.

The United States space administration NASA has requested an increase in the 2020 budget of $1.6 billion, in order to make another crewed mission to the Moon by 2024, followed by a sustained presence on the Moon by 2028.



Billionaire Jeff Bezos has outlined his plans for a lunar base in the 2020s, independently, SpaceX plans to send Starship to the Moon to establish a base as well. The SpaceX Starship is planned to be a spacecraft launched as the second stage of a reusable launch vehicle.

As of 2016, Russia is planning to begin building a human colony on the Moon by 2030. Initially, the Moon base would be crewed by no more than four people, with their number later rising to maximum of 12 people. Japan also has plans to land a man on the Moon by 2030, while the People's Republic of China is currently planning to land a human on the Moon by 2036.

In August 2019, the Open Lunar Foundation came out of stealth with an explicit plan to develop a collaborative and global open group to allow denizens of all nations to participate in building a peaceful and cooperative lunar settlement. _However, the issue of valuable resources remain unclear as it does in the arctic regions as the snow and ice melt._ 

_Point is this, the moon will be exploited for its rich resources and humans will be tested as to endure in its hostile environment._ 

Colonization of the Moon - Wikipedia

----------


## Swedgin

> Fairy tales, how people in modern day can conclude human beings were created some six thousand years ago is an affront to science . Or Christ really did walk on water. Or feeding of the 5,000, with seven loaves of bread and two fish reported by Matthew 15 (Matthew 15:32-39) and Mark 8 ..the feeding of the 5,000 also known as the "miracle of the five loaves and two fish" ..all of these so called miracles are not compatible with science today ..maybe 2000 years ago when everyone thought the earth was flat.


--I certainly understand where you are coming from, but, I must ask:  Were you there?  "Miracle," by definition, means something beyond our understanding.  Even in THAT day, the events were called "miraculous."  Now, that doesn't mean some of it wasn't just made up, wholesale (Although, I believe the tales are somewhat accurate.).  OR, that events happened, and, were then exaggerated.

But, when it comes to Christianity, the "miracles" are not the important part.

The TEACHINGS are the important part....




> One must choose to be a person of learning, science, and reason, or choose to embrace religion, dogma, and faith ..can't do both IMHO, differences are not reconcilable.




--I do that very thing.  And, from my perspective, Faith and Science are, in no way "irreconcilable..."




> Won't find many active Christians or Muslims working at NASA ..more of the Agnostic persuasion, I'm sure.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...and_technology

https://answersingenesis.org/blogs/k...and-evolution/




> From the Christian perspective is the idea that faith trumps reason, God as understood by Christians and Muslims blesses us with a bit of reason is at its core, a crock of do do and the basis of its incompatibility.


--That sounds like some rather arrogant assumptions about what other people believe.  The fact, that as a I Christian, I do not, in any way, feel that I match the stereotype you created, makes me think that you may be somewhat ignorant as to what everyone else "believes......"

----------


## Fall River

It might be more or less likely to find intelligent life in the universe depending on how you define intelligence.  I believe all living cells have intelligence.   It makes me think about how life begins in the human body.  Egg meets sperm. And, from that microscopic union, a complete person is built.

----------

Swedgin (01-29-2020)

----------


## Swedgin

> It might be more or less likely to find intelligent life in the universe depending on how you define intelligence.  I believe all living cells have intelligence.   It makes me think about how life begins in the human body.  Egg meets sperm. And, from that microscopic union, a complete person is built.


While I do not think individual cells have any sort of "intelligence," per se, they DO follow a prescribed set of behaviors.  (Which, can be explained by Science, very easily.....)

That said, your QUESTION about what actually constitutes "intelligence" has concerned me for most of my life.

Personally, I feel there are several species OTHER than human beings, that should be considered "intelligent" life.

--Dolphins for certain, and, likely, several other species of whales.
--Several species of our fellow Primates, with Gorilla's close to the top (But, I may be biased, due to that species' no-aggressive passiveness.....)
--Pigs (Hey, they TASTE good, but....they are very close to human beings, in many aspects, intelligence in particular.)
--And, perhaps, even some BIRD species, such as Crows and Parrots.

Those are only MY standards.  And, I am just one person.

But, if not ALL of those species can be considered "generally intelligent," then I find it hard to classify HUMANITY as an "intelligent" species.

MOST of us, stand on the technological shoulders of previous generations, and, could not survive a few days, if all of that were to dissappear.....

----------

Fall River (01-29-2020)

----------


## Fall River

I did a search to find out if the human heart has memory and the answer was no. (Although the answer I got said that blood has memory.) Some years ago I read a book that said the heart does seem to have memory.  The author interviewed several people who had heart transplants. Several of them reported having strange cravings after having their transplant.  One woman said she had cravings for beer and hamburgers.  And it was later found that the heart she got came from a man who loved to drink beer and eat hamburgers.

Article: The Body Is Intelligent.  https://medicineandsergebenhayon.com...s-intelligent/

----------

Swedgin (01-30-2020)

----------


## nonsqtr

> Fairy tales, how people in modern day can conclude human beings were created some six thousand years ago is an affront to science . Or Christ really did walk on water.  Or feeding of the 5,000, with seven loaves of bread and two fish reported by Matthew 15 (Matthew 15:32-39) and Mark 8 ..the feeding of the 5,000 also known as the "miracle of the five loaves and two fish" ..all of these so called miracles are not compatible with science today ..maybe 2000 years ago when everyone thought the earth was flat. 
> 
> Attachment 47985 
> 
> One must choose to be a person of learning, science, and reason, or choose to embrace religion, dogma, and faith ..can't do both IMHO, differences are not reconcilable. Won't find many active Christians or Muslims working at NASA ..more of the Agnostic persuasion, I'm sure.  
> 
> From the Christian perspective is the idea that faith trumps reason, God as understood by Christians and Muslims blesses us with a bit of reason is at its core, a crock of do do and the basis of its incompatibility.


Excuse me, but that's pretty ignorant.

Really, you're just talking out your butt. I hear lots of conjectures, plenty of stereotypes, but very little evidence.

No Christian ever said "faith trumps reason", those are your words and they're inaccurate.

God doesn't "bless us with reason", that's inaccurate too. Read Ephesians 2:8, it tells you exactly what God does.

Honestly, you sound like a liberal, you know so much that simply isn't true

----------


## Morning Star

> No Christian ever said "faith trumps reason", those are your words and they're inaccurate.


On the contrary, any Christian that says Noah's Ark actually happened is saying exactly that.

----------

gboisjo (01-30-2020)

----------


## Swedgin

> On the contrary, any Christian that says Noah's Ark actually happened is saying exactly that.


How would you know that never happened?

I say that I BELIEVE something like that happened.  Based on my Faith.

But, you, as one swinging the sword of SCIENCE say it never happened.

Neither of us can prove one way or the other.


Now, I do not believe the "whole world" flooded.  Although, MANY cultures have ancient stories of a Great flood (Probably because great floods DO happen, and, when they do...we tend to remember them!)

I believe that something happened, and the BLACK SEA flooded.  There was likely a rich area in the basin, with a smaller series of lakes, or a small sea.  Would have been a great place for human beings.  Then, something happened, possible the Bosphorus straights opening up, which literally caused the "world" these people knew, to be flooded.

Admittedly I can not prove my theories.   (But I can damn certain use REASON to back them up, for better or worse.)


In the grand scheme of things, this particular debate should hardly matter for a person of faith.  It should matter even less to a person who is not part of the faith.

Now, if you want to debate where I DO place "Faith over Reason," is in the following:

A.  There is a "God."
B.  Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh on Earth.
C.  Jesus Christ died, was risen, and ascended into Heaven.
D.  Jesus Christ sits at the Right hand of His Father.
E.  We are ALL saved, due to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

And, I can't provide any physical evidence of any of that.  

I hope that does not make me...."unreasonable!"

----------


## gboisjo

> Excuse me, but that's pretty ignorant.
> 
> Really, you're just talking out your butt. I hear lots of conjectures, plenty of stereotypes, but very little evidence.
> 
> No Christian ever said "faith trumps reason", those are your words and they're inaccurate.
> 
> God doesn't "bless us with reason", that's inaccurate too. Read Ephesians 2:8, it tells you exactly what God does.
> 
> Honestly, you sound like a liberal, you know so much that simply isn't true


_
How can a person be reasonable and believe in magic and miracles. Here it is for the church goers ..faith is the belief in the truth of something that does not require any evidence and may not be provable by any empirical or rational means. Reason is the faculty of the mind through which we can logically come to rational conclusions as in empirical evidence.

Another way of putting it is like this .. Religious faith is the belief in the truth of something that does not require any evidence and may not be provable by any empirical or rational means. Reason is the faculty of the mind through which we can logically come to rational conclusions.



And God, as understood by the Pope, has placed in the heart the desire to know the truth ..faith doing its best to trump reason.

This doesn't take a genius to understand, its not complicated ..if your posting on a science thread you would be wise not to discuss religion ..it lessens your otherwise intelligent posts. I don't mean to step on anyone's belief system, however, this is a science thread where facts matter._ 

Historical Introduction to Philosophy/Faith and Reason - Wikiversity
Faith and Reason | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Relation of Faith to Reason
Faith and rationality - Wikipedia

----------


## gboisjo

> Now, if you want to debate where I DO place "Faith over Reason," is in the following:
> 
> A. There is a "God."
> B. Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh on Earth.
> C. Jesus Christ died, was risen, and ascended into Heaven.
> D. Jesus Christ sits at the Right hand of His Father.
> E. We are ALL saved, due to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
> 
> And, I can't provide any physical evidence of any of that.
> ...


_It does on a thread dealing with facts not fiction ..I mean take your religious beliefs to the appropriate forum section. One of the moderator's started this conversation about "Daniel" for what was in my view outta left field ..talking about science and religion in 500 BC._

----------


## nonsqtr

> _
> How can a person be reasonable and believe in magic and miracles. Here it is for the church goers ..faith is the belief in the truth of something that does not require any evidence and may not be provable by any empirical or rational means. Reason is the faculty of the mind through which we can logically come to rational conclusions as in empirical evidence.
> 
> Another way of putting it is like this .. Religious faith is the belief in the truth of something that does not require any evidence and may not be provable by any empirical or rational means. Reason is the faculty of the mind through which we can logically come to rational conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> And God, as understood by the Pope, has placed in the heart the desire to know the truth ..faith doing its best to trump reason.
> 
> ...


You make the same mistake Iron_Merc did, just the other way around.

You're suggesting there's some kind of incompatibility between reason and faith, and that's the same thing he said.

But really that's not the case. Both are just tools in a toolbox, you have to know when to use a hammer and when to use a screwdriver.

----------

Swedgin (01-30-2020)

----------


## Swedgin

[QUOTE=nonsqtr;2373499]You make the same mistake Iron_Merc did, just the other way around.

*You're suggesting there's some kind of incompatibility between reason and faith, and that's the same thing he said.*

*But really that's not the case.* *Both are just tools in a toolbox, you have to know when to use a hammer and when to use a screwdriver.[*/QUOTE]


VERY well stated!

My thoughts, exactly!

----------


## Swedgin

> _It does on a thread dealing with facts not fiction ..I mean take your religious beliefs to the appropriate forum section. One of the moderator's started this conversation about "Daniel" for what was in my view outta left field ..talking about science and religion in 500 BC._


Well, first things first:  I don't do demands, so, I will post what I want, where I want, when I want.  IF the Moderators have an issue  with that, then THEY can "instruct" me, as that is their prerogative.

That said, you are correct, in that this discussion SHOULD be in the Religious forum.  

But, we got sidetracked.  I may have had some responsibility in doing that, but, it was in response to what others had stated in their posts.

So, let's get back to the actual topic of the thread:  LIFE, and the potential for extraterrestrial INTELLIGENT Life......

I will start by re-iterating my personal views:

#1.  While I feel, like most who know a bit about biology and chemistry, that the universe may have an abundance of life...we simply do not "know."  We can assume, and theorize, but, until we find a living, extraterrestrial cell, any such opinions are based only on.....our "Faith," that what biochemistry SUGGESTS is actual.

#2.  As for Intelligent life, I don't even know how we define that?  Are Human beings the "only intelligent" species on our planet, or, just the MOST intelligent?  We can only judge this dynamic with ourselves as the primary subject.   Hell, what IS "intelligence" anyways?  (Seems to me, that there are MANY different facets of "intellect.")

#3.  IF there is intelligent life out there, we still may never find them/it.  For one, what if they/it evolve in some world like the moon Europa?  Any species developing in a water environment would likely lag far behind us, technologically, for two reasons:  A.  Such an environment removes the actual NEED for much of our technology. and, B.  Metallurgy, construction, mining, etc. would likely not be developed.  And, if they were, it would take longer, I would think.

#4.  Then, there is the DISTANCE, which is absolutely staggering.  (But, still achievable.....)

#5.  This entire discussion/debate, is conjecture.

----------


## Morning Star

> How would you know that never happened?
> 
> I say that I BELIEVE something like that happened. Based on my Faith.
> 
> But, you, as one swinging the sword of SCIENCE say it never happened.
> 
> Neither of us can prove one way or the other.


It is impossible for a 600 year old man to exist.
It is impossible for one man to manufacture the Ark
It is impossible to gather 2 of ever species of life on Earth
It is impossible to care for them all for a full year on an Ark
It is impossible for this one man to redistribute all life on the Earth
It is impossible for complex life to produce viable societies from a single pair of genetic information without replication failure
It is impossible for marine life to survive the desalination require to flood the Earth
It is impossible for plant seeds to survive miles under water for a year or more and still grow
It is impossible for birds to fly for a year without landing
It is impossible for a man of Noah's time to save two of every microbe and virus


I could go on forever.

----------


## Morning Star

> *You're suggesting there's some kind of incompatibility between reason and faith, and that's the same thing he said.
> 
> But really that's not the case. Both are just tools in a toolbox, you have to know when to use a hammer and when to use a screwdriver.*


Not true at all, faith is the lack of reason. They are mutually exclusive.

----------


## Swedgin

> Not true at all, faith is the lack of reason. They are mutually exclusive.


No.  It isn't.

By the very definitions of the words, they are NOT exclusive to one another.  

*reason*
[ *ree*-z_uh_n ]SHOW IPA


SEE SYNONYMS FOR _reason_ ON THESAURUS.COM
*noun*a basis or cause, as for some belief, action, fact, event, etc.:_the reason for declaring war._
a statement presented in justification or explanation of a belief or action:_I dare you to give me one good reason for quitting school!_

SEE MORE

*verb (used without object)*to think or argue in a logical manner.
to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.

SEE MORE

*verb (used with object)*to think through logically, as a problem (often followed by _out_).
to conclude or infer.




*faith*
[ feyth ]SHOW IPA


SEE SYNONYMS FOR _faith_ ON THESAURUS.COM
*noun*confidence or trust in a person or thing:_faith in another's ability._
belief that is not based on proof:_He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact._
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion:_the firm faith of the Pilgrims._
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.:_to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty._
a system of religious belief:_the Christian faith; the Jewish faith._
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.:_Failure to appear would be breaking faith._

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## Morning Star

Reason is belief based on evidence and facts. It depends on it.
Faith is based on nothing but a belief, even when the facts dispute it.

You can not reason out a belief in Tinkerbell but you can have faith she exists. 

One is rational, the other is not. Therefore, mutually exclusive.

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Swedgin (01-30-2020)

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## Swedgin

> It is impossible for a 600 year old man to exist.


--According to current biology it is.  There is nothing in the fossil records to suggest that this was ever "different."  




> It is impossible for one man to manufacture the Ark


--Not if he had 600 years.  (And, I think Noah had some help from his sons in law.)




> It is impossible to gather 2 of ever species of life on Earth


--I don't know that it would be impossible with MODERN technology.  But, then again...do we even KNOW all the species on Earth?




> It is impossible to care for them all for a full year on an Ark


--Not if you feed them seafood.  (And, who knows, maybe a few species didn't make the trip.  Got fed to Tigers, instead....)




> It is impossible for this one man to redistribute all life on the Earth


--That is not impossible.  Hell, you don't even NEED man for that.  From what we know of TERRESTRIAL life, you put it down, and that shit spreads!!!




> It is impossible for complex life to produce viable societies from a single pair of genetic information without replication failure


--Not in Appalachia it ain't!  No, all kidding aside, you are correct here.   Many species would just flat out die after a generation or two.




> It is impossible for marine life to survive the desalination require to flood the Earth


--That's a good point, I did not even think about that!  (Maybe the Atlantaens had their own "salt water ark" to keep undersea life in.....)




> It is impossible for plant seeds to survive miles under water for a year or more and still grow


--Yep.  Although, SOME seeds could have "floated" until the waters descended.  But, what would happen if you had only ONE "Apple Tree" seed?




> It is impossible for birds to fly for a year without landing


--Noah would let them land, and they whack em, to feed to those with an Ark Cabin.....




> It is impossible for a man of Noah's time to save two of every microbe and virus


--Virus ain't life.  Many microbes would survive on their own.



All very valid points.

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Morning Star (01-30-2020)

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## Morning Star

A virus may not be life (It's debatable) but according to the religious even a virus is many thousands of proteins and could not possibly just exist without having been created by "God". It is far too complex. Therefore if Noah didn't preserve every virus they would not exist today.

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## Swedgin

> A virus may not be life (It's debatable) but according to the religious even a virus is many thousands of proteins and could not possibly just exist without having been created by "God". It is far too complex. Therefore if Noah didn't preserve every virus they would not exist today.


He did try to leave the AIDS virus behind.  But, some dudes buttfucked monkeys, and, look what that got us!



We need to study up and have a debate JUST on Viruses.

This thread has really peaked my interest.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0430170750.htm




I think, Viruses should be renamed as "Biocodes....."

(And, as we discussed somewhere else deep in this thread:  Viral agents may be the very thing that pushes "evolution."  I would have to think that they certainly contribute to it...)

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Morning Star (01-30-2020)

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## Neo

This is how many people we’d have to send to Proxima Centauri to make sure someone actually arrives
If humans are ever to colonize the galaxy, we will need to make the trip to a nearby star with a habitable planet. Last year, astronomers raised the possibility that our nearest neighbor, Proxima Centauri, has several potentially habitable exoplanets that could fit the bill
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...eone-actually/

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gboisjo (01-30-2020),Morning Star (01-30-2020),Swedgin (01-30-2020)

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## Morning Star

> He did try to leave the AIDS virus behind.  But, some dudes buttfucked monkeys, and, look what that got us!
> 
> 
> 
> We need to study up and have a debate JUST on Viruses.
> 
> This thread has really peaked my interest.
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0430170750.htm
> ...


The cool thing is we are not a single being like everyone thinks, we are a conscious environment. Only about 43% of your mass is actually human.

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Swedgin (01-30-2020)

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## Swedgin

> The cool thing is we are not a single being like everyone thinks, we are a conscious environment. Only about 43% of your mass is actually human.


The DUMB part!

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Morning Star (01-30-2020)

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## Calypso Jones

> This is how many people wed have to send to Proxima Centauri to make sure someone actually arrives
> If humans are ever to colonize the galaxy, we will need to make the trip to a nearby star with a habitable planet. Last year, astronomers raised the possibility that our nearest neighbor, Proxima Centauri, has several potentially habitable exoplanets that could fit the bill
> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...eone-actually/


possibility? Well I'd hate to be the fool that made the trip only to find it there was NO possibility.

LOL

----------


## Neo

> possibility? Well I'd hate to be the fool that made the trip only to find it there was NO possibility.
> 
> LOL



Apparently they will send nano probes powered by lasers at a 1/5 of light speed... a lot of technology has to be invented to solve navigation, breaking, and sending data back.

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MrMike (01-30-2020)

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## gboisjo

> This is how many people wed have to send to Proxima Centauri to make sure someone actually arrives
> If humans are ever to colonize the galaxy, we will need to make the trip to a nearby star with a habitable planet. Last year, astronomers raised the possibility that our nearest neighbor, Proxima Centauri, has several potentially habitable exoplanets that could fit the bill
> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6...eone-actually/


_This is where we're going to start Neo ..eventually we'll get to Jupiter's moons where life might exist. IMHO humanity will never leave our solar system, the distances are just to great. Much more likely to develop high technology that assists us at seeing distant planets and moons more precisely.

Some great perspective in the article you posted. Apollo 11 traveled at around 25,000 miles per hour, a speed that would take it to Proxima Centauri in a little over 100,000 years. For me the Universe is a mind blower, I stand in awe._




> With the discovery of lunar water at the lunar poles by Chandrayaan-1 in 20082009 and huge sources of titanium has renewed interest in our Moon. A colony at one of the lunar poles would allow the colony to take advantage of the continuous sunlight there for generating solar power.
> 
> The United States space administration NASA has requested an increase in the 2020 budget of $1.6 billion, in order to make another crewed mission to the Moon by 2024, followed by a sustained presence on the Moon by 2028.
> 
> 
> 
> Billionaire Jeff Bezos has outlined his plans for a lunar base in the 2020s, independently, SpaceX plans to send Starship to the Moon to establish a base as well. The SpaceX Starship is planned to be a spacecraft launched as the second stage of a reusable launch vehicle.
> 
> As of 2016, Russia is planning to begin building a human colony on the Moon by 2030. Initially, the Moon base would be crewed by no more than four people, with their number later rising to maximum of 12 people. Japan also has plans to land a man on the Moon by 2030, while the People's Republic of China is currently planning to land a human on the Moon by 2036.
> ...

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Neo (01-30-2020)

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## Neo

*STARSHOT*The story of humanity is a story of great leaps – out of Africa, across oceans, to the skies and into space. Since Apollo 11’s ‘moonshot’, we have been sending our machines ahead of us – to planets, comets, even interstellar space.
But with current rocket propulsion technology, it would take tens or hundreds of millennia to reach our neighboring star system, Alpha Centauri. The stars, it seems, have set strict bounds on human destiny. Until now.
In the last decade and a half, rapid technological advances have opened up the possibility of light-powered space travel at a significant fraction of light speed. This involves a ground-based *light beamer* pushing ultra-light *nanocrafts* – miniature space probes attached to *lightsails* – to speeds of up to 100 million miles an hour. Such a system would allow a flyby mission to reach Alpha Centauri in just over 20 years from launch, beaming home images of 

, and any other planets that may lie in the system, as well as collecting other scientific data such as analysis of magnetic fields.
Breakthrough Starshot aims to demonstrate proof of concept for ultra-fast light-driven nanocrafts, and lay the foundations for a first launch to Alpha Centauri within the next generation. Along the way, the project could generate important supplementary benefits to astronomy, including solar system exploration and detection of Earth-crossing asteroids.
A number of hard engineering challenges remain to be solved before these missions can become a reality. They are listed here, for consideration by experts and public alike, as part of the initiative’s commitment to full transparency and open access. The initiative will also establish a research grant program, and will make available other funding to support relevant scientific and engineering research and development
https://breakthroughinitiatives.org/initiative/3

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gboisjo (01-31-2020)

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## gboisjo

_One of the founders of "Starshot" was the late science and math genius Stephen William Hawking ..so I'm interested. However, the project remains in its early stages and a number of hard engineering challenges along with funding must be be solved before these missions can ever become a reality. 

The envisioned journey would include a flyby of Proxima Centauri b, an Earth-sized exoplanet that is in the habitable zone of its host star. The ultra-light StarChip robotic nanocraft, fitted with lightsails, are planned to travel at speeds of 20% of the speed of light, taking between 20 and 30 years to reach the star system, respectively, and about 4 years to notify Earth of a successful arrival_






> Technical challenges
> 
> Light propulsion requires enormous power: a laser with a gigawatt of power (approximately the output of a large nuclear plant) would provide only a few newtons of thrust. The spaceship will compensate for the low thrust by having a mass of only a few grams. The camera, computer, communications laser, a plutonium power source, and the solar sail must be miniaturized to fit within a mass limit. All components must be engineered to endure extreme acceleration, cold, vacuum, and protons. The spacecraft will have to survive collisions with space dust; Starshot expects each square centimeter of frontal cross-section to collide at high speed with about a thousand particles of size at least 0.1 μm. Focusing a set of lasers totaling one hundred gigawatts onto the solar sail will be difficult due to atmospheric turbulence, so there is the suggestion to use space-based laser infrastructure.




Breakthrough Starshot - Wikipedia

----------

Neo (01-31-2020),Swedgin (01-31-2020)

----------


## Canadianeye

> Well, first things first:  I don't do demands, so, I will post what I want, where I want, when I want.  IF the Moderators have an issue  with that, then THEY can "instruct" me, as that is their prerogative.
> 
> That said, you are correct, in that this discussion SHOULD be in the Religious forum.  
> 
> But, we got sidetracked.  I may have had some responsibility in doing that, but, it was in response to what others had stated in their posts.
> 
> So, let's get back to the actual topic of the thread:  LIFE, and the potential for extraterrestrial INTELLIGENT Life......
> 
> I will start by re-iterating my personal views:
> ...


Perhaps the right questions are not being asked about goals/objectives leading to actions/directions.

*Why* are we looking to find other *habitable* planets?

Is it overpopulation of our current planet, and looking for a suitable planet to colonize and take the load off of this one? If that is the reason, the big brains better think that one through all the way, given all the obstacles upon just finding and arriving...without all the problems of immune systems, the new planets existing bacterial life - our interaction with that, etc, etc.

Is it just a thirst for the unknown?

----------


## Lummy

> _One of the founders of "Starshot" was the late science and math genius Stephen William Hawking ..so I'm interested. However, the project remains in its early stages and a number of hard engineering challenges along with funding must be be solved before these missions can ever become a reality. 
> 
> The envisioned journey would include a flyby of Proxima Centauri b, an Earth-sized exoplanet that is in the habitable zone of its host star. The ultra-light StarChip robotic nanocraft, fitted with lightsails, are planned to travel at speeds of 20% of the speed of light, taking between 20 and 30 years to reach the star system, respectively, and about 4 years to notify Earth of a successful arrival_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breakthrough Starshot - Wikipedia


What if you get stuck in an area of space where the surrounding light energy is about equal all around the sail -- not enough difference to push or pull the sail any particular direction?

----------


## Old Ridge Runner

> Are we alone in the universe? It comes down to whether intelligence is a probable outcome of natural selection, or an improbable fluke. By definition, probable events occur frequently, improbable events occur rarely  or once. Our evolutionary history shows that many key adaptations  not just intelligence, but complex animals, complex cells, photosynthesis, and life itself  were unique, one-off events, and therefore highly improbable. Our evolution may have been like winning the lottery  only far less likely. 
> https://apple.news/AHNXQomHLTOaIdto-aF5guw


Does that include Democrats?

----------


## teeceetx

I may concede that there were earlier technologically advanced human races that far predated ours.  I look at all the megalithic structures across the globe, and then listen as archeologists tell me they we designed, quarried, transported, and constructed by people barely out of the hunter gatherer period.  No chance, not even a fucking chance!  I believe many of these structures have been improperly assigned an age, but because of a lack of knowledge.  And the more we dig, the better the technology, we find what we KNEW as true, was not.  We have, among many others:

Machu Pichu, Peru - 600 years old
Angkor Wat, Cambodia - 900 years old
Pumapunku, Bolivia - 1,500 years old
Mundeshwari Devi Temple, India - 1,900 years old
Tiwanaku, Bolivia - 2,000 years old
Teotihuacán, Mexico - 2,300 years old
Giza pyramids, Egypt - 4,500 years old 
Temple of Jupiter, Lebanon - 4,550 years old
Stonehenge, UK - 5,000 years old
Newgrange, Ireland - 5,000 years old
Temples of Malta - 5,500 years old
The Cairns of Barnenez, France - 6,800 years old
Catalhoyuk, Turkey - 9,400 years old
Walls of Jericho, West Bank - 10,000 years old
Gobekli Tepli, Turkey - 11,000 years old
Stone Wall at Theopetra Cave, Greece - 23,000 years old

I have no doubt that many of these sites are likely much older than is currently believed.  There are many submerged megalithic structures and cites across the globe, as well.  When one looks at the architecture of many of these, serious doubts about their origins and age can occur.  I remain skeptical of the purported/accepted  history of these, because they make no sense.  The cost, time, labor, and technology involved in their construction, simply doesn't make sense to me.  Put in economic terms, the cost/benefit analysis makes no sense.

And tell me, how is it that civilizations across the globe were building MASSIVE PYRAMIDS?  This cannot be coincidence!  Nope, history surely needs to be re-written!

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