# Politics and News > Rants, Opinions, Observations >  Attention Christian Crusaders

## Sinestro/Green Arrow

Please, do me a favor. Strap on a sword and your holy shield of Jesus or whatever, gather up your fellow like-minded crusaders, and go off to some Middle Eastern country to fight your holy war. We're a bit sick of Christians and Muslims fighting this stupid holy war and involving all the rest of us in it. Really, we're not interested.

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## Canadianeye

Muslims don't care really about the book people. Certainly not as much as infidels, and have much more hatred for Hindus and Buddhists than christians.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Muslims don't care really about the book people. Certainly not as much as infidels, and have much more hatred for Hindus and Buddhists than christians.


Well, tell that to the Christians. The two groups seem to be pretty pissed at each other. I don't care much myself, and would rather live my life in peace, but the other two are really making that difficult.

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## Canadianeye

> Well, tell that to the Christians. The two groups seem to be pretty pissed at each other. I don't care much myself, and would rather live my life in peace, but the other two are really making that difficult.


I think that most people, even with a limited intellect, understand that islam hates the secular western ideologies. Even the moderates have a serious axe to grind regarding this.

More than the bombs and oil and profiling etc, etc....they hate the west for being secular, and that shit runs deep in most of them.

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Calypso Jones (09-11-2013)

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## usfan

One of the main reasons Muhammad came up with the quran was that arabs didn't have a 'book'.  Jews had a book.  Christians had a book.  He wanted a book, too.  But he couldn't read.  So he received the koran from a revelation, & it was passed down orally, until someone decided they should write it down, but since it was in the holy tongue of arabic, which evidently is the language of heaven, it could not be reduced to writing.. so the written arabic quran is actually an 'interpretation' of the quran.

Muhammad referred to jews & christians as 'people of a book'.. they were actually exempt, originally, from being infidels, & were accepted by muhammad.. i don't know what happened later to change that.

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Canadianeye (09-11-2013),President Peanut (09-12-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

what happened is that Christians would not accept his apostasy.  He got ticked.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I think that most people, even with a limited intellect, understand that islam hates the secular western ideologies. Even the moderates have a serious axe to grind regarding this.
> 
> More than the bombs and oil and profiling etc, etc....they hate the west for being secular, and that shit runs deep in most of them.


It's the nature of religion to oppose that which refuses to accept it. Let's not pretend Christians fall in line like ducks in a row when the U.S. government - or any government - does something anti-Christianity.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> what happened is that Christians would not accept his apostasy.  He got ticked.


Meh. Muslims are apostate Christians and Christians are apostate Jews. Welcome to religion.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> One of the main reasons Muhammad came up with the quran was that arabs didn't have a 'book'.  Jews had a book.  Christians had a book.  He wanted a book, too.  But he couldn't read.  So he received the koran from a revelation, & it was passed down orally, until someone decided they should write it down, but since it was in the holy tongue of arabic, which evidently is the language of heaven, it could not be reduced to writing.. so the written arabic quran is actually an 'interpretation' of the quran.
> 
> Muhammad referred to jews & christians as 'people of a book'.. they were actually exempt, originally, from being infidels, & were accepted by muhammad.. i don't know what happened later to change that.


Completely irrelevant to the point of this thread. The point of this thread is that if Christians and Muslims want to tear the shit out of each other, they should have the decency to go to common ground not shared by the rest of us who are uninterested in their holy war.

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## Calypso Jones

well....it's too bad we don't have any actual jews on here to discuss the matter.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> well....it's too bad we don't have any actual jews on here to discuss the matter.


You have one right here. Not that you're actually interested in discussing the matter, but you know. Figured I'd throw that out there anyway. 

So what is it this time? I'm not a real Jew because I don't hate Muslims as much as Evangelical Christian Republicans? Is that it?

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## Gerrard Winstanley

The thought of reading this over breakfast in eight hours' time gives me a tingling sensation in my nipples.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-11-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> The thought of reading this over breakfast in eight hours' time gives me a tingling sensation in my nipples.


This? This is why we're friends.

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## Irascible Crusader

The author of this OP thinks that it's Christians vs Muslims in the Middle East.  How demonstrably and breathtakingly stupid!  The only "war" between Muslims and Christians is Christians being persecuted and murdered in Syria.  TP you really need to admit this out loud:

*I

Am

Not

Smarter

Than

A

Fifth

Grader.*

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> The author of this OP thinks that it's Christians vs Muslims in the Middle East.  How demonstrably and breathtakingly stupid!  The only "war" between Muslims and Christians is Christians being persecuted and murdered in Syria.  TP you really need to admit this out loud:
> 
> *I
> 
> Am
> 
> Not
> 
> Smarter
> ...


You're the very archetype of the character TP is satirising here.

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## Calypso Jones

> You're the very archetype of the character TP is satirising here.


well tp is doing a pisspoor job of satirizing and you couldn't tell satire from your butt.

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## Irascible Crusader

> You're the very archetype of the character TP is satirising here.


You mean you go along with the *American soldier = Christian* jack-assery?  That makes you just as retarded.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> The author of this OP thinks that it's Christians vs Muslims in the Middle East.  How demonstrably and breathtakingly stupid!  The only "war" between Muslims and Christians is Christians being persecuted and murdered in Syria.  TP you really need to admit this out loud:
> 
> *I
> 
> Am
> 
> Not
> 
> Smarter
> ...


Syria? 



I'm not talking about Syria, I'm talking about life in general. Read the fucking thread. Nowhere did I mention Syria.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> well tp is doing a pisspoor job of satirizing and you couldn't tell satire from your butt.


He used the wrong word. It's not really satire. I was being mostly serious. I would like for you and your fellows who get hategasms thinking about Muslims to go join the Muslims that hate you and fight it out over there. The rest of us are not interested in being caught up in your holy wars.

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## Calypso Jones

> Syria? 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about Syria, I'm talking about life in general. Read the fucking thread. Nowhere did I mention Syria.


where 'life in general' are you finding Christians beheading or harming in any way muslims.  It is the other way round.   And they tell us their intent.  If you don't want to hear it then continue to keep your head in the sand.  I warn you though, Don't do that around a muslim.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You mean you go along with the *American soldier = Christian* jack-assery?  That makes you just as retarded.


WHAT? I'm sorry, but the retarded one is you for somehow getting Syria and the idea that American soldiers are Christian crusaders out of this thread. 

Seriously, dude, you're smarter than this. Just stop.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> where 'life in general' are you finding Christians beheading or harming in any way muslims.  It is the other way round.   And they tell us their intent.  If you don't want to hear it then continue to keep your head in the sand.  I warn you though, Don't do that around a muslim.


Where did I say Christians were beheading Muslims, exactly? All I've said is that Christians are more than happy to spend billions of dollars we don't have blowing up Muslims, Jews, and Christians in the Middle East because of some several-hundred-year-old Jesus grudge match.

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## Irascible Crusader

> He used the wrong word. It's not really satire. I was being mostly serious. I would like for you and your fellows who get hategasms thinking about Muslims to go join the Muslims that hate you and fight it out over there. The rest of us are not interested in being caught up in your holy wars.


No, you said "some Middle East country", so wtf are you talking about then?  Do you really think there is a holy war going on between Muslims and Christians?  Can you truly be that ignorant?

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## Irascible Crusader

> Where did I say Christians were beheading Muslims, exactly? All I've said is that Christians are more than happy to spend billions of dollars we don't have blowing up Muslims, Jews, and Christians in the Middle East because of some several-hundred-year-old Jesus grudge match.


So this IS *American soldier = christian* jack-assery.  I was right!

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So this IS *American soldier = christian* jack-assery.  I was right!


No, you're not, you're an idiot. Sorry.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> No, you said "some Middle East country", so wtf are you talking about then?  Do you really think there is a holy war going on between Muslims and Christians?  Can you truly be that ignorant?


Yes, I do see it that way. Muslims hate Christians and Christians hate Muslims, and almost none of it has anything to do with anything logical. I, quite frankly, am tired of it. If y'all want to fight, go fight each other in some Middle Eastern country and leave the rest of us out of it.

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## Irascible Crusader

> No, you're not, you're an idiot. Sorry.


Really?  You just made the connection I suspected all along with your last post.  You're a hack.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Really?  You just made the connection I suspected all along with your last post.  You're a hack.


And you're either a liar or I misjudged you all this time in thinking you were fairly intelligent. What you saw is what's called "confirmation bias." You invented something that wasn't there, then latched onto the first post that may be even remotely related to confirm your invented "fact."

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## Irascible Crusader

> Yes, I do see it that way. Muslims hate Christians and Christians hate Muslims, and almost none of it has anything to do with anything logical. I, quite frankly, am tired of it. If y'all want to fight, go fight each other in some Middle Eastern country and leave the rest of us out of it.


What Christians hate Muslims?  Where are Christians killing Muslims for converting from Christianity?  Where are Muslim mosques being burned to the ground like Christian churches are as we speak?  Your grasp on geo-political realities is much like a fat-chick mud wrestling contest; a mix of funny and pitiful.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> What Christians hate Muslims?


Calypso Jones, though she'll deny it. 




> Where are Christians killing Muslims for converting from Christianity?


Hell if I know. You're adding in words that I never said. I'm not going to defend a strawman. 




> Where are Muslim mosques being burned to the ground like Christian churches are as we speak?


Not that I expect you to actually read it, but there's stuff like this. 




> Your grasp on geo-political realities is much like a fat-chick mud wrestling contest; a mix of funny and pitiful.

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> well tp is doing a pisspoor job of satirizing and you couldn't tell satire from your butt.


I sure can tell the cool Pakistani guy who lives down my street from Osama bin Laden. You could use with some investment in that field.

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## Max Rockatansky

> You have one right here. Not that you're actually interested in discussing the matter, but you know. Figured I'd throw that out there anyway. 
> 
> So what is it this time? I'm not a real Jew because I don't hate Muslims as much as Evangelical Christian Republicans? Is that it?


Or Israeli Jews?  Frankly, while I think Evangelicals and Southern Baptists have far too much influence on Republican politics, I disagree that it's they are the primary or driving influence in starting or continuing wars in the Middle East.  Same goes for Jews, be they New York Jews or Israeli ones.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Or Israeli Jews?  Frankly, while I think Evangelicals and Southern Baptists have far too much influence on Republican politics, I disagree that it's they are the primary or driving influence in starting or continuing wars in the Middle East.


I don't disagree with you. I don't think they're the primary force, they are just useful idiots more than happy to enable it.

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## Max Rockatansky

> I don't disagree with you. I don't think they're the primary force, they are just useful idiots more than happy to enable it.


Isn't democracy wunnerful?

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Gerrard Winstanley (09-11-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-11-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I sure can tell the cool Pakistani guy who lives down my street from Osama bin Laden. You could use with some investment in that field.


Oh, no, @Char1es, you don't know Calypso. She's the queen of discernment.

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> You mean you go along with the *American soldier = Christian* jack-assery?  That makes you just as retarded.


Back up. Where the fuck did I mention American soldiers?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Isn't democracy wunnerful?


It's times like these that make me wonder if Plato wasn't right about his philosopher king system.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Back up. Where the fuck did I mention American soldiers?


You didn't. Irascible Crusader is the king of strawmen. It's literally all he ever pulls out in an argument against you. There's even a post around here somewhere where he admits to deliberately misrepresenting people's positions.

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## countryboy

> You have one right here. Not that you're actually interested in discussing the matter, but you know. Figured I'd throw that out there anyway. 
> 
> So what is it this time? I'm not a real Jew because I don't hate Muslims as much as Evangelical Christian Republicans? Is that it?


You are a convert to the religion of Judaism, you are not Jewish.

What holy war are you talking about?

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## Irascible Crusader

> I sure can tell the cool Pakistani guy who lives down my street from Osama bin Laden. You could use with some investment in that field.


I think CJ can tell the difference.  Osama Bin Laden is the one with a bullet hole through his eye socket.

Kinda hard to miss.

But otherwise you're right. They all look the same.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You are a convert to the religion of Judaism, you are not Jewish.


I cannot believe those words just came out of your mouth. 

So, if I convert to Christianity, I'm a "convert to the religion of Christianity," not a Christian? That's a bit long to be putting on my business card.




> What holy war are you talking about?


The one fought by all the crazy evangelicals in this country (yes, yes, there are exceptions, they aren't all like that, blah blah blah I get it, this isn't a generalization) and the crazy Muslims in the Middle East?

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## Irascible Crusader

A convert to Judaism is just as Jewish as those born into it.  Jewish conversion goes all the way back to the days of Queen Esther when thousands of people converted to being Jews.  It could be that many born into Judaism are decendents of those who converted into it.

TP is a jackass, but he's a Jewish jackass.

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## Aldo Raine

Can the moderators define "civil"?  Is it only uncivil to talk about BGs dick, Edwina's underwear deficit, and Rintendo's titties?


Cuz telling someone what religion they are or aren't seems uncivil.  


I'm just curious about the line of civility here, plus I'm shit-stirring because no one's home right now and I'm bored.

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> I think CJ can tell the difference.


The bulk of her posts would suggest otherwise.

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## countryboy

> Where did I say Christians were beheading Muslims, exactly? All I've said is that Christians are more than happy to spend billions of dollars we don't have blowing up Muslims, Jews, and Christians in the Middle East because of some several-hundred-year-old Jesus grudge match.


I never thought you would stoop to lying to advance your agenda. You've been hanging around kilogram too much. Are you seriously painting with that broad of a brush?

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## Irascible Crusader

This is the "rants" section. Civility is a little more broadly defined here.

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## Aldo Raine

> This is the "rants" section. Civility is a little more broadly defined here.


So as long as its in rants we can talk shit to each other?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I never thought you would stoop to lying to advance your agenda. You've been hanging around kilogram too much. Are you seriously painting with that broad of a brush?


Nowhere did I say that all Christians are doing this. I just said Christians. There are Christians doing it. Or are you going to deny that too? Jesus. Even I can admit there are bad Jews and bad Muslims out there. For some reason, only Christians seem spared from the curse of doing something wrong.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Or Israeli Jews?  Frankly, while I think Evangelicals and Southern Baptists have far too much influence on Republican politics, I disagree that it's they are the primary or driving influence in starting or continuing wars in the Middle East.  Same goes for Jews, be they New York Jews or Israeli ones.


I'm continually amazed at how everyone's concerned that Baptists vote Republican but few are concerned about how many Catholics vote Democrat.  Even "concern over influence" has been politicized, hasn't it?

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## countryboy

> I cannot believe those words just came out of your mouth. 
> 
> So, if I convert to Christianity, I'm a "convert to the religion of Christianity," not a Christian? That's a bit long to be putting on my business card.
> 
> 
> 
> The one fought by all the crazy evangelicals in this country (yes, yes, there are exceptions, they aren't all like that, blah blah blah I get it, this isn't a generalization) and the crazy Muslims in the Middle East?


Jewish is an ethnicity, Christianity is not.

Sure sounds like generalizing to me.

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## Irascible Crusader

> So as long as its in rants we can talk shit to each other?


within reason.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Can the moderators define "civil"?  Is it only uncivil to talk about BGs dick, Edwina's underwear deficit, and Rintendo's titties?
> 
> 
> Cuz telling someone what religion they are or aren't seems uncivil.  
> 
> 
> I'm just curious about the line of civility here, plus I'm shit-stirring because no one's home right now and I'm bored.


Bah, who the fuck cares. Calypso is never civil. Lots of folks here breach civility from time to time. Who cares. We've all got thick skins, I'm sure we can all handle it. Quite frankly, a little gloves-off brawling can be fun from time to time. I for one have been missing out on the fun, trying to take the high ground all the time.

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## Aldo Raine

> Nowhere did I say that all Christians are doing this. I just said Christians. There are Christians doing it. Or are you going to deny that too? Jesus. Even I can admit there are bad Jews and bad Muslims out there. For some reason, only Christians seem spared from the curse of doing something wrong.


Where are they spared this curse?

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## Calypso Jones

> Can the moderators define "civil"?  Is it only uncivil to talk about BGs dick, Edwina's underwear deficit, and Rintendo's titties?
> 
> 
> Cuz telling someone what religion they are or aren't seems uncivil.  
> 
> 
> I'm just curious about the line of civility here, plus I'm shit-stirring because no one's home right now and I'm bored.



it's a red line....we set it...or maybe we didn't.  I think the world set it.   OH HELL.  Do WHATEVER.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Jewish is an ethnicity, Christianity is not.


"Jew" has not been an ethnicity since the Diaspora effectively "watered down" the bloodline. Regardless, followers of the religion of Judaism were called "Jews" before the "race" was called "Jew," seeing as Judaism started when Israel was twelve distinct tribes, and "Jews" were just the sole tribe of Judah. 




> Sure sounds like generalizing to me.


Well, I don't know what to say, then. I'm not going to go out of my way jumping through verbal hula hoops when what I said was proper.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Where are they spared this curse?


Hell if I know. Ask the Christians around here that seem to think Christians do no wrong.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I cannot believe those words just came out of your mouth. 
> 
> So, if I convert to Christianity, I'm a "convert to the religion of Christianity," not a Christian? That's a bit long to be putting on my business card.
> 
> 
> 
> The one fought by all the crazy evangelicals in this country (yes, yes, there are exceptions, they aren't all like that, blah blah blah I get it, this isn't a generalization) and the crazy Muslims in the Middle East?


So based on your whacky reasoning method, can I assume that any time Israeli's kill people in war it's Jews killing Muslims in a holy war?

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## Irascible Crusader

> Hell if I know. Ask the Christians around here that seem to think Christians do no wrong.


Who thinks Christians do no wrong?  Do you even grasp how incredibly stupid you sound with one rash generalization after another coming out of that stupid hole in your face?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So based on your whacky reasoning method, can I assume that any time Israeli's kill people in war it's Jews killing Muslims in a holy war?


That would not be my reasoning method, so no.

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## Aldo Raine

> Bah, who the fuck cares. Calypso is never civil. Lots of folks here breach civility from time to time. Who cares. We've all got thick skins, I'm sure we can all handle it. Quite frankly, a little gloves-off brawling can be fun from time to time. I for one have been missing out on the fun, trying to take the high ground all the time.


Ease up there, Kike.  I was just asking about civility and what the line is around here.  I just want to know where we can make fun of faggots, bitches, ******s-sorry, _negroes_, sand ******s--sorry, _sand negroes_, Spics, and pedophile priests.

If rant is the place for it, I'll just hang out here in rants.


Note: It will take people awhile to get me.  It always does.  Usually people have to punch me a few times to realize I always have a point.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Who thinks Christians do no wrong?  Do you even grasp how incredibly stupid you sound with one rash generalization after another coming out of that stupid hole in your face?




Oh, sorry. Is this the part where I'm supposed to crumple up into a ball and beg you to take my lunch money and stop hurting me? I think I'll take option two:

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## Irascible Crusader

> Ease up there, Kike.  I was just asking about civility and what the line is around here.  I just want to know where we can make fun of faggots, bitches, ******s-sorry, _negroes_, sand ******s--sorry, _sand negroes_, Spics, and pedophile priests.
> 
> If rant is the place for it, I'll just hang out here in rants.
> 
> 
> Note: It will take people awhile to get me.  It always does.  Usually people have to punch me a few times to realize I always have a point.


Voted best post!

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Ease up there, Kike.  I was just asking about civility and what the line is around here.  I just want to know where we can make fun of faggots, bitches, ******s-sorry, _negroes_, sand ******s--sorry, _sand negroes_, Spics, and pedophile priests.
> 
> If rant is the place for it, I'll just hang out here in rants.
> 
> 
> Note: It will take people awhile to get me.  It always does.  Usually people have to punch me a few times to realize I always have a point.


I'd say that you should say what you want where you want and let Trinnity sort it out. She'll tell you when you're out of line.

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## Calypso Jones

> Bah, who the fuck cares. Calypso is never civil. Lots of folks here breach civility from time to time. Who cares. We've all got thick skins, I'm sure we can all handle it. Quite frankly, a little gloves-off brawling can be fun from time to time. I for one have been missing out on the fun, trying to take the high ground all the time.


 :Burp:

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## Irascible Crusader

> I'd say that you should say what you want where you want and let Trinnity sort it out. She'll tell you when you're out of line.


It's a clue that she's pissed at something you posted when suddenly you can't access the site.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> It's a clue that she's pissed at something you posted when suddenly you can't access the site.


Hah. Not sure that actually happens, but it'd be funny.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Hah. Not sure that actually happens, but it'd be funny.


It happens. Trust me.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

>

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## Aldo Raine

> It's a clue that she's pissed at something you posted when suddenly you can't access the site.


Yeh. That would suck.  

NSA NSA NSA CIA CIA CIA FBI FBI FBI 
NSA NSA NSA CIA CIA CIA FBI FBI FBI
NSA NSA NSA CIA CIA CIA FBI FBI FBI
NSA NSA NSA CIA CIA CIA FBI FBI FBI
NSA NSA NSA CIA CIA CIA FBI FBI FBI


Just testing

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

I did notice that you bailed after I called your bluff on the whole burning mosques to the ground thing, by the way, @Irascible Crusader. I bet you thought I'd come up empty  :Big Grin:

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## Max Rockatansky

> I'm continually amazed at how everyone's concerned that Baptists vote Republican but few are concerned about how many Catholics vote Democrat.  Even "concern over influence" has been politicized, hasn't it?


It's not a matter of how many are voting, but the proportion of influence a particular religious group has on a party.  If your theory was correct, the Democrats would be against abortion and contraceptives because of Catholic influence.  As it is, you're assertion is incorrect:

http://www.people-press.org/2012/06/...y-affiliation/

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## Calypso Jones

all democrats..catholic or not are more loyal to party than to God.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> all democrats..catholic or not are more loyal to party than to religion.




Well, you're not wrong. I just think it's funny, coming from you, of all people.

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## Max Rockatansky

> all democrats..catholic or not are more loyal to party than to God.


Does this mean you agree that the Republicans have become "The Party of God"?*











*in Arabic "Party of God" is "Hezbollah".

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-11-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

> Well, you're not wrong. I just think it's funny, coming from you, of all people.



I've always said it.

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## Calypso Jones

> Does this mean you agree that the Republicans have become "The Party of God"?*


WHO ever said the repubs are the Party of God??

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I've always said it.


I know, Calypso. I know.

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## Max Rockatansky

> WHO ever said the repubs are the Party of God??


You made a comment that Democrats are more loyal to party than to God.  Does this mean Republicans are more loyal to God than party?

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## Calypso Jones

> You made a comment that Democrats are more loyal to party than to God.  Does this mean Republicans are more loyal to God than party?


no...seein as I wasn't talking about republicans.     The fact of the matter is, is that Democrats put party first.  OVER EVERYTHING.

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Irascible Crusader (09-15-2013)

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## Archer

> Please, do me a favor. Strap on a sword and your holy shield of Jesus or whatever, gather up your fellow like-minded crusaders, and go off to some Middle Eastern country to fight your holy war. We're a bit sick of Christians and Muslims fighting this stupid holy war and involving all the rest of us in it. Really, we're not interested.


Okay where did I say anything about my beliefs being my issue with Islam? My issue is their BOOK and the way the government favors them over others.

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## Network

Roman Catholic crusaders that is, with a bunch of Jew-pretenders under their wing, or with common short term goals.

Tell me about John Kerry, tell me about the CIA. 

I already told you about the CIA.

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Aldo Raine (09-11-2013)

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## Network

It's hard to figure out who is right and who is wrong TBH, especially in spiritual matters.

Everyone is wrong.  I have a hard time believing that believing in sketchy history is the only way to salvation.  Of course, the possibility still remains that our creator is evil.  laff

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## Max Rockatansky

> no...seein as I wasn't talking about republicans.     The fact of the matter is, is that Democrats put party first.  OVER EVERYTHING.


Disagreed.  Some of them put trees, puppies and kittens ahead of everyone and everything.

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## Roadmaster

> Please, do me a favor. Strap on a sword and your holy shield of Jesus or whatever, gather up your fellow like-minded crusaders, and go off to some Middle Eastern country to fight your holy war. We're a bit sick of Christians and Muslims fighting this stupid holy war and involving all the rest of us in it. Really, we're not interested.


 Why don't you go. The Crusaders fought to protect their lives in the ME.

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## Roadmaster

> No, you said "some Middle East country", so wtf are you talking about then?  Do you really think there is a holy war going on between Muslims and Christians?  Can you truly be that ignorant?


 Yes, I do. We are only to pray for them.

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## Roadmaster

> I know, Calypso. I know.


Are you Jewish or just  another non-believing Jew?

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> Why don't you go. The Crusaders fought to protect their lives in the ME.


And the Nazis fought to protect their lives in Poland and France.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

True but still

----------


## patrickt

> Please, do me a favor. Strap on a sword and your holy shield of Jesus or whatever, gather up your fellow like-minded crusaders, and go off to some Middle Eastern country to fight your holy war. We're a bit sick of Christians and Muslims fighting this stupid holy war and involving all the rest of us in it. Really, we're not interested.


Amazing. You and Obama use the royal "we".

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Amazing. You and Obama use the royal "we".


No, it's a personal pronoun that means plurality, i.e. more than one person in agreement or unification. In this case, I'm referring to everyone that is uninterested in war with Muslim countries just because of several centuries worth of holy war. I would think as an atheist, you'd agree.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Are you Jewish or just  another non-believing Jew?


Very deeply religious Jew. Not sure how that's relevant though.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Very deeply religious Jew. Not sure how that's relevant though.


 Something is wrong, how did this in your mind become a Christian vs Muslim war?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Something is wrong, how did this in your mind become a Christian vs Muslim war?


Uhm...the fact that Muslims are on one side and Christians are on the other, and the only real justification is religion?

----------


## Roadmaster

> Uhm...the fact that Muslims are on one side and Christians are on the other, and the only real justification is religion?


BS just because many Americans are Christians doesn't mean we started the war in the ME. Israel is the one crying over there. Our troops of all faiths were ordered to go. We could also say atheist started the war with them, how about gays that they hate? Jewish people won't admit they owned slaves and won't admit they asked America for help. This is not a religious war, it's countries fighting each other.

----------


## Archer

> Uhm...the fact that Muslims are on one side and Christians are on the other, and the only real justification is religion?


I think if you look deeper (remove faith again) you will see that this is cultural and faith is used as a cover.

That region has been a hell hole (off and on, mostly on) for the better part of the last ten millennium. Mohamad brought religion to try and get order. It was a social-political-trade move and had nothing to do with God. The region was a mess, he decided the Arabs needed their own god and gave them one fashioned after himself but based some on the other Abraham views of God. This is recorded history! He was real and he was a real monster in pursuit of wealth and power.

Before Islam there was killing and war and after there was Bigoted killing, forced conversion and war after.

~10,000 years ago Jericho was decimated!

How much fertile crescent history do you know? I do not have time to teach a history course.
 @Thomas Paine : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertile_Crescent

And 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Penguin-Hi.../dp/1846144426 I have acopy!

And a few more to enlighten you if you wish.

----------


## Canadianeye

> Uhm...the fact that Muslims are on one side and Christians are on the other, and the only real justification is religion?


Just for sake of clarity, are you holding the position that the American war machine is acting as the military arm of christianity, as the muslim war machine is acting as the military arm of Islam?...cuz one is a nation, the other a religion. Maybe I am misreading you.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Uhm...the fact that Muslims are on one side and Christians are on the other, and the only real justification is religion?


 Were are the pagans, atheist, and Jewish that are fighting in these wars? Oh that's right they don't exist.

----------


## Calypso Jones

It is a religious war fought for world domination.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Just for sake of clarity, are you holding the position that the American war machine is acting as the military arm of christianity, as the muslim war machine is acting as the military arm of Islam?...cuz one is a nation, the other a religion. Maybe I am misreading you.


No, I am not saying that. I'm saying that it appears Christians are the biggest force _as a group_ that supports these wars. It used to be that no Republican candidate could ever make the primary if they didn't give lip-service to the anti-Muslim holy war crowd.

As for the Muslim war machine, Muslims control around 22 nations.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Just for sake of clarity, are you holding the position that the American war machine is acting as the military arm of christianity, as the muslim war machine is acting as the military arm of Islam?...cuz one is a nation, the other a religion. Maybe I am misreading you.


 When Canada goes to war with another country which religion do they say all of you are to make themselves look good and blame?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> It is a religious war fought for world domination.


Precisely. See? We can agree from time to time.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Were are the pagans, atheist, and Jewish that are fighting in these wars? Oh that's right they don't exist.


No, Israel very much exists, and they enjoy sending people off on these wars. Obama is an atheist, he's happy to fight them. Not sure about pagans though. I'm sure some exist.

----------


## Roadmaster

> No, I am not saying that. I'm saying that it appears Christians are the biggest force _as a group_ that supports these wars. It used to be that no Republican candidate could ever make the primary if they didn't give lip-service to the anti-Muslim holy war crowd.
> 
> As for the Muslim war machine, Muslims control around 22 nations.


 Still BS, if it were up to Christians we would have stayed out of these civil wars.

----------


## Archer

> It is a religious war fought for world domination.


I disagree. It is a cultural war fought by the Arabs wrapped up in a faith that feeds the monster with a monstrous, murdering, molesting founder. Read post 95. These people do not want to change just as we do not want to change in the US. We just need to leave them the fuck alone and deal with our own issues.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Still BS, if it were up to Christians we would have stayed out of these civil wars.


That's bullshit. You need to learn that just because YOU feel that way, as a Christian, does not mean ALL Christians do. Again, even I can admit there are bad Jews out there. Why can't you folks?

----------


## Calypso Jones

> I disagree. It is a cultural war fought by the Arabs wrapped up in a faith that feeds the monster with a monstrous, murdering, molesting founder. Read post 95. These people do not want to change just as we do not want to change in the US. We just need to leave them the fuck alone and deal with our own issues.


It's not that we need to leave them alone....I could do that.  THEY will not leave US alone.   They have declared war.  How many times do they have to attack and kill americans.   We are STILL fighting the muslims only they are no longer known as the Barbary pirates.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> It's not that we need to leave them alone....I could do that.  THEY will not leave US alone.   They have declared war.  How many times do they have to attack and kill americans.   We are STILL fighting the muslims only they are no longer known as the Barbary pirates.


Oh, please. They left us alone for almost two centuries until we decided to fuck with their region again.

----------


## Roadmaster

> No, Israel very much exists, and they enjoy sending people off on these wars. Obama is an atheist, he's happy to fight them. Not sure about pagans though. I'm sure some exist.


Then why did you choose not to put Jewish in your little rant. Many pagans out there in war too. Doesn't matter what faith if you join and America ends up in a war, you may be sent. I am not a Buddhist but why as a Christian would I want to kill them? I don't believe in Islam either but until they threaten us as a country, leave them alone.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> That's bullshit. You need to learn that just because YOU feel that way, as a Christian, does not mean ALL Christians do. Again, even I can admit there are bad Jews out there. Why can't you folks?


I think you assume everyone who is not a muslim is a Christian. Hitler was not a Christian in spite of all the leftists claims that he was.   Obama is not a Christian for however loudly you claim he is.   How many satanically inspired people wear the mantle of Christian.  Satan loves that.

----------


## Archer

> It's not that we need to leave them alone....I could do that.  THEY will not leave US alone.   They have declared war.  How many times do they have to attack and kill americans.   We are STILL fighting the muslims only they are no longer known as the Barbary pirates.


Actually we encroach on their territory and have been for over 1500 years. They attack us? How many died at the hands of westerners ???? All the fucking time for that 1500+ years. Shit I do not need to go back in history because it is a constant. The west has been constantly trying to evolve their culture. Let them have it!

----------


## Canadianeye

> No, I am not saying that. I'm saying that it appears Christians are the biggest force _as a group_ that supports these wars. It used to be that no Republican candidate could ever make the primary if they didn't give lip-service to the anti-Muslim holy war crowd.
> 
> As for the Muslim war machine, Muslims control around 22 nations.


Ack. Your generalizations are killing me. Ford was a dove, especially ideologically.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I think you assume everyone who is not a muslim is a Christian.


Incorrect. Obviously, as I know I'm not a Christian or a Muslim, patrickt is not a Christian or a Muslim, Canadianeye is not a Christian or a Muslim, Char1es is not a Christian or a Muslim, etc.




> Hitler was not a Christian in spite of all the leftists claims that he was.


Right, he was an atheist obsessed with the occult. 




> Obama is not a Christian for however loudly you claim he is.


I have never claimed Obama was a Christian, and in fact have very vocally stated that he is an atheist. 




> How many satanically inspired people wear the mantle of Christian.  Satan loves that.


I'm sure he does.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Ack. Your generalizations are killing. Ford was a dove, especially ideologically.


I'm not making any generalizations. There are lots of Christians that do not support this crap. I know many of them. I'm just saying that as a voting bloc, they are the largest group that supports any war in a Muslim country (until a Democrat is in charge). Do you dispute this?

----------


## The XL

> It's not that we need to leave them alone....I could do that.  THEY will not leave US alone.   They have declared war.  How many times do they have to attack and kill americans.   We are STILL fighting the muslims only they are no longer known as the Barbary pirates.


They declared war on us because of our foreign policy.

Just change that policy.  Get out of the Middle East.  Sad day for Israel, perhaps, but they started all of this fuckery to begin with.  Not our problem.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Then why did you choose not to put Jewish in your little rant.


Because I'm not posting for your benefit? I called out Christians because on this forum we only have Christians, a couple atheists, and a Jew. As I happen to be the only Jew and am against these wars, obviously calling out myself wouldn't fit. 




> Many pagans out there in war too. Doesn't matter what faith if you join and America ends up in a war, you may be sent. I am not a Buddhist but why as a Christian would I want to kill them? I don't believe in Islam either but until they threaten us as a country, leave them alone.


That's nice.

----------


## Roadmaster

> That's bullshit. You need to learn that just because YOU feel that way, as a Christian, does not mean ALL Christians do. Again, even I can admit there are bad Jews out there. Why can't you folks?


Really your little rant didn't say anything about Jews. Who is the one wanting to attack Syria the most, Israel. Who is scared of Iran, the Jewish. Bash the US when you don't need them but blame Christians if a war comes around.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> They declared war on us because of our foreign policy.
> 
> Just change that policy.  Get out of the Middle East.  Sad day for Israel, perhaps, but they started all of this fuckery to begin with.  Not our problem.


that is so  old that it doesn't even get any opposition anymore.   What foreign policy?   WHAT in particular have we done to these dumbasses that this is what we get for it.   I say nothing.

The whole world is getting it from them.  They have to have some reason for their insanity and they say, 'eet ees yore foren poleecee'.  BS.  They can't tell you the truth.  They are doing it for allah, for slaves, sex slaves, murderous brutality, world domination and they want what you got.   they are like liberals.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Really your little rant didn't say anything about Jews. Who is the one wanting to attack Syria the most, Israel. Who is scared of Iran, the Jewish. Bash the US when you don't need them but blame Christians if a war comes around.


I also blamed Obama, who is an atheist, and Muslims, who are very much not Christian. I give Israel the credit for these wars too, I just point out Christians more because this site has a shit ton of them.

----------


## Calypso Jones

If he is an atheist he is not Christian for all his pretending to be Christian.   thank you.  Being a muslim is akin to atheism.  Both worship a false god.  The Atheist worships the great nothing, the spaghetti monster if you will.  The muslim worships the moon god and their holey book gives them the right to lie and pretend to be something they are not until the time is right to strike.   It is amazing the number of false religions that originated in the east....further east from eden.   You know what the jews say about going east, don't you @Thomas Paine?

----------


## Roadmaster

> I also blamed Obama, who is an atheist, and Muslims, who are very much not Christian. I give Israel the credit for these wars too, I just point out Christians more because this site has a shit ton of them.


 And because you are not a Christian so the target was easy.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> If he is an atheist he is not Christian for all his pretending to be Christian.


Precisely. 




> thank you.


You're welcome.




> Being a muslim is akin to atheism.  Both worship a false god.  The Atheist worships the great nothing, the spaghetti monster if you will.  The muslim worships the moon god and their holey book gives them the right to lie and pretend to be something they are not until the time is right to strike.


Except not at all. Atheists worship nothing, there is no god to them. To Muslims, atheists are blasphemers. They'd actually probably dislike atheists more than Christians and Jews.




> It is amazing the number of false religions that originated in the east....further east from eden.   You know what the jews say about going east, don't you @Thomas Paine?


Not really? I've never heard any witty quips about "going east."

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> And because you are not a Christian so the target was easy.


Except I criticize Israel far more than I criticize Christians.

----------


## Canadianeye

> When Canada goes to war with another country which religion do they say all of you are to make themselves look good and blame?


They don't to my recollection.

----------


## Archer

I find it funny that presenting any type of real content with meat in a post is completely ignored around here so the bickering can continue. I guess our government is a reflection of the citizens lacking wisdom and depth. They vote for things and then find out what they vote for.

I want to go to Russia!

----------


## The XL

> that is so  old that it doesn't even get any opposition anymore.   What foreign policy?   WHAT in particular have we done to these dumbasses that this is what we get for it.   I say nothing.
> 
> The whole world is getting it from them.  They have to have some reason for their insanity and they say, 'eet ees yore foren poleecee'.  BS.  They can't tell you the truth.  They are doing it for allah, for slaves, sex slaves, murderous brutality, world domination and they want what you got.   they are like liberals.


You comment and have a strong opinion on things you don't understand, and don't care to inform yourself about.  The United States has had her fingerprints all over the Middle East for a long time.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle6308.htm

----------


## Roadmaster

> They don't to my recollection.


 Any war the US goes to, atheist or others always say it's a Christian war here. Doesn't matter if Canada, France, Britain are all in the same war with us. If Israel is attacked by Iran this week and we all help, they will call it a Christian war. If China was to bomb Britain and any of our troops help it would still be called a Christian war.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I find it funny that presenting any type of real content with meat in a post is completely ignored around here so the bickering can continue. I guess our government is a reflection of the citizens lacking wisdom and depth. They vote for things and then find out what they vote for.
> 
> I want to go to Russia!


I didn't disagree, so what was the point of a superfluous comment?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Any war the US goes to, atheist or others always say it's a Christian war here. Doesn't matter if Canada, France, Britain are all in the same war with us. If Israel is attacked by Iran this week and we all help, they will call it a Christian war. If China was to bomb Britain and any of our troops help it would still be called a Christian war.


Sorry I'm not PC enough for you.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Sorry I'm not PC enough for you.


 No you are deceptive.

----------


## Archer

> I didn't disagree, so what was the point of a superfluous comment?


Well penis wrinkle I was sort of on your side and against everyone else. How much do you know about the regional history? It has nothing to do with any faith just fuckers that got too damn much heat to the membrane.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Well penis wrinkle I was sort of on your side and against everyone else. How much do you know about the regional history? It has nothing to do with any faith just fuckers that got too damn much heat to the membrane.


I know a lot about the regional history. The only area of the world I know more about is Europe.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> No you are deceptive.


No, I'm one of the few people around here willing to be honest.

----------


## Archer

> I know a lot about the regional history. The only area of the world I know more about is Europe.


Well you know there has been strife there since the beginning and this did not start 1400, 2000,4000 or even 8000 years ago. It has nothing to do with faith it has to do with a regional culture.

----------


## Roadmaster

> No, I'm one of the few people around here willing to be honest.


 Honest, not even claiming at first but only blaming Christians and Muslims. This Jewish pedestal you sit on just fell.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Well you know there has been strife there since the beginning and this did not start 1400, 2000,4000 or even 8000 years ago. It has nothing to do with faith it has to do with a regional culture.


I'm not saying the general problems have to do with religion. I'm saying individual Christians and individual Muslims have turned it into a religious thing _personally_, even if their respective governments recognize that it isn't.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Honest, not even claiming at first but only blaming Christians and Muslims. This Jewish pedestal you sit on just fell.


I blame Israel frequently. You're just butthurt that I brought up Christians. If this thread was all about Israel, you'd be crying with joy.

----------


## Canadianeye

> I'm not making any generalizations. There are lots of Christians that do not support this crap. I know many of them. I'm just saying that as a voting bloc, they are the largest group that supports any war in a Muslim country (until a Democrat is in charge). Do you dispute this?


That isn't the generalization I was talking about, from what you said, however the point is moot I guess.

I am not sure about that tbh. All politicians make claims to being christians (with a few exceptions of course), so that would mean Dems and Repubs, cons and libs all blanket themselves under the god schtick for political points across the board. If you are talking about real christians, like the born again, live it breathe it types, I would have to guess they abhor war and killing, and just want to be christlike.

----------


## Micketto

How many of them have you reached with this demand..... in this forum ?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> That isn't the generalization I was talking about, from what you said, however the point is moot I guess.
> 
> I am not sure about that tbh. All politicians make claims to being christians (with a few exceptions of course), so that would mean Dems and Repubs, cons and libs all blanket themselves under the god schtick for political points across the board. If you are talking about real christians, like the born again, live it breathe it types, I would have to guess they abhor war and killing, and just want to be christlike.


I'm referring to voters. Whether or not you personally abhor war and killing, plenty of Evangelicals still beat the war drums (though in the last year or so they've become remarkably dovish). 

I don't believe almost any politician is honest about their religion.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> How many of them have you reached with this demand..... in this forum ?


You mean, how many have heard it? Not many. How many would actually listen? None. Plenty will talk big about "dealing with" Muslims but won't put their own asses on the line to do it. They'd rather send others to do their dirty work.

----------


## Roadmaster

> I'm not saying the general problems have to do with religion. I'm saying individual Christians and individual Muslims have turned it into a religious thing _personally_, even if their respective governments recognize that it isn't.


 So Jews and Muslims get along great over there? Yea, we stand against anyone trying to take away our rights to believe as Americans against all. America fought to be a free nation and their courts are not going to come here and tell us how to act. Even the Jewish try to put  their beliefs here but don't abide by them in Israel. Yea it's personal if you think America will bend to any.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Evangelicals


 Tell me how I am beating the war drums?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So Jews and Muslims get along great over there?


No?




> Yea, we stand against anyone trying to take away our rights to believe as Americans against all. America fought to be a free nation and their courts are not going to come here and tell us how to act. Even the Jewish try to put  their beliefs here but don't abide by them in Israel. Yea it's personal if you think America will bend to any.


Charming, but this is actually not really happening. America has a lot of different competing ideas all vying for supremacy. Evangelical Christians like Rick Santorum want everybody to hate porn and love Jesus. Muslims want everybody to be ultra-nutty conservative and love Allah. Jews want everybody to stop eating pork. The Hindus agree with the Jews but believe in a lot more gods. The Buddhists just want everybody to shut the hell up and be peaceful. On and on and on it goes.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Tell me how I am beating the war drums?


You are not.

----------


## Roadmaster

> The Buddhists just want everybody to shut the hell up and be peaceful


 They have been in a lot of fights. Read up for once.

----------


## Archer

> I'm not saying the general problems have to do with religion. I'm saying individual Christians and individual Muslims have turned it into a religious thing _personally_, even if their respective governments recognize that it isn't.


A crutch and an excuse for bad behavior. God made me do it as an excuse for doing your own will. I am not an evil murderous person! I am following God!

----------


## Roadmaster

> Evangelical Christians like Rick Santorum want everybody to hate porn and love Jesus.


 I don't know his heart but I love Jesus and think porn is wrong also. I can't or will not force my beliefs on others but will not condone this. Do you expect him to bend to your thinking? I won't.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> A crutch and an excuse for bad behavior. God made me do it as an excuse for doing your own will. I am not an evil murderous person! I am following God!


There is no excuse for bad behavior. I've never once condoned their actions.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I don't know his heart but I love Jesus and think porn is wrong also. I can't or will not force my beliefs on others but will not condone this. Do you expect him to bend to your thinking? I won't.


No, I don't, but I also don't want him using the law to make me bend to HIS thinking.

----------


## Archer

> There is no excuse for bad behavior. I've never once condoned their actions.


No actually there are only excuses in the case of using a god to cover your actions. A reason would be "Yeah you are damn straight I cut the fuckers head off and I will fucking do it again if you do not go the fuck away!"

And I never said you condoned it. You must have me confused with somebody else because I do not give a shit if you do or do not condone it.

Remember I have little to no compassion for human animals and would just as soon kill you and shit on your grave as shake your hand. Depends on what I get out of it. Yes it is a tad sociopath but fuck it I really do not give a shit!

I condone all acts of hate committed by nut cases as long as they kill other nut cases. Less shit to walk through and over if that time ever comes.

----------


## Dos Equis

> Please, do me a favor. Strap on a sword and your holy shield of Jesus or whatever, gather up your fellow like-minded crusaders, and go off to some Middle Eastern country to fight your holy war. We're a bit sick of Christians and Muslims fighting this stupid holy war and involving all the rest of us in it. Really, we're not interested.


Hey Sherlock, in case you had not noticed the American government has set a wall between church and state.  They have driven out prayer from the schools, made abortion the law of the land and allow monsters like Gosnell to practice in malpractice for decades all in the name of protecting abortion as the supreme law of the land.  Gays are now getting married in record number around the country.  So don't tell me that the exact same government is now Christian because they are fighting Muslims.  In case you had not noticed, the Christian right in the GOP is despised in the GOP and nothing they support ever succeeds in Washington and never will.

That's right, heathens like you are the ones picking fights and Crusades over seas.  But if it makes you feel better, then blame Christians.  After all, it worked for Nero.......for a time.

----------

Calypso Jones (09-12-2013)

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Precisely. 
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> Except not at all. Atheists worship nothing, there is no god to them. To Muslims, atheists are blasphemers. They'd actually probably dislike atheists more than Christians and Jews.
> ...


definition of Religion:*Religion* is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality.[

sounds like atheism is a religion to me.

maybe you don't know the 'going east' thing because you don't live in Israel or maybe don't go to synagogue or socialize with jews?

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> No, Israel very much exists, and they enjoy sending people off on these wars. *Obama is an atheist*, he's happy to fight them. Not sure about pagans though. I'm sure some exist.


I thought he was a Kenyan Muslim?  At least according to the Fox News fans on the forum.  Why do you think he's an atheist?

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-12-2013)

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Hey Sherlock, in case you had not noticed the American government has set a wall between church and state.  They have driven out prayer from the schools, made abortion the law of the land and allow monsters like Gosnell to practice in malpractice for decades all in the name of protecting abortion as the supreme law of the land.  Gays are now getting married in record number around the country.  So don't tell me that the exact same government is now Christian because they are fighting Muslims.  In case you had not noticed, the Christian right in the GOP is despised in the GOP and nothing they support ever succeeds in Washington and never will.


I never said the government was Christian.




> That's right, heathens like you are the ones picking fights and Crusades over seas.  But if it makes you feel better, then blame Christians.  After all, it worked for Nero.......for a time.


I'm not a heathen? l'm Jewish. Technically, heathens are followers of Germanic paganism. My wife is closer, but she's Celtic paganism.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I thought he was a Kenyan Muslim?  At least according to the Fox News fans on the forum.  Why do you think he's an atheist?


He doesn't follow any religion and doesn't seem all that interested in god, until he needs to pay lip-service.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> definition of Religion:*Religion* is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to the supernatural, and to spirituality.[
> 
> sounds like atheism is a religion to me.
> 
> maybe you don't know the 'going east' thing because you don't live in Israel or maybe don't go to synagogue or socialize with jews?


I do not live in Israel, I live in Virginia. I also have not been able to attend synagogue, as I knew of none in Chattanooga. I know of several here in Richmond, though, and will be attending regularly again once I have reliable transportation.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> He doesn't follow any religion and doesn't seem all that interested in god, until he needs to pay lip-service.


Evangelicals and Southern Baptists aside, maybe it's because most Americans consider religion a private matter and, as President (or any other elected official), he is sworn to support our Constitution, not a particular religion be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam or anything else.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Evangelicals and Southern Baptists aside, maybe it's because most Americans consider religion a private matter and, as President (or any other elected official), he is sworn to support our Constitution, not a particular religion be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam or anything else.


I honestly don't care what he is, folks 'round here just have a delusion that I support him. I have to frequently set the record straight.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I honestly don't care what he is, folks 'round here just have a delusion that I support him. I have to frequently set the record straight.


I pay little mind to delusional people as far as caring what they think.  OTOH, like my $5 LASER and the GF's cat, I do enjoy the entertainment value of playing with a red dot.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-12-2013)

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## Roadmaster

> I pay little mind to delusional people as far as caring what they think.  OTOH, like my $5 LASER and the GF's cat, I do enjoy the entertainment value of playing with a red dot.


But the red dot is predictable, I am not.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> But the red dot is predictable, I am not.


Interesting for several reasons.  One, that you identify yourself with cats.  :Big Grin:     Two, that you declare yourself to be unpredictable.  I'm very predictable once you get to know me.  Why?  Because I'm stable.  An unpredictable person isn't stable.  You are intelligent enough to understand the meaning.

----------


## TheTemporaryBG

> Interesting for several reasons.  One, that you identify yourself with cats.     Two, that you declare yourself to be unpredictable.  I'm very predictable once you get to know me.  Why?  Because I'm stable.  An unpredictable person isn't stable.  You are intelligent enough to understand the meaning.


You can be unstable and predictable if you are disciplined.  Take aldo for example.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Interesting for several reasons.  One, that you identify yourself with cats.     Two, that you declare yourself to be unpredictable.  I'm very predictable once you get to know me.  Why?  Because I'm stable.  An unpredictable person isn't stable.  You are intelligent enough to understand the meaning.


 I am a very stable person but also an old tracker in some sorts. Being predictable will get you caught.  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I am a very stable person but also an old tracker in some sorts. Being predictable will get you caught.


While I fully agree with the idea that "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't really after you", I'm not worried about being "caught" at anything since I don't plan on doing anything wrong.  

Yes, Sun Tzu would tell you that being predictable can be a detriment in war, but it can also be an advantage.  It depends on the problem at hand.  In the case of social interaction, being predictable is an asset.   How many women really want a man who is always unpredictable?  Sure, it's nice to be surprised with flowers but constantly changing plans or doing things out of the blue would eventually not only drive them batty, but cause them to wonder about their man's mental stability.




> You can be unstable and predictable if you are disciplined. Take aldo for example.


As noted above there is a time and place for being "unpredictable", but disciplined implies stability.  I can act unpredictable to fool an opponent as a deliberate means to deceive such as a football play.  That takes discipline and doesn't mean I'm unstable.  In this instance the subject was more about a person's stability in interacting with fellow forum members.

A person who is always unpredictable in a social setting would not be trusted as being stable, IMO.

----------


## patrickt

You're doomed, Max. In the Brave New World you don't have to "intend" to do anything wrong. If you can get up, go to the bathroom, and return to bed without committing a felony it's pure luck.

----------


## Archer

> You're doomed, Max. In the Brave New World you don't have to "intend" to do anything wrong. If you can get up, go to the bathroom, and return to bed without committing a felony it's pure luck.


The handicapper General will be watching! All people will be equal! Prepare for the stupid pills! Prepare to forced abortions (every woman must have one to be equal), too good at a sport? The government will break your legs!

Pure prophecy:



> *HARRISON BERGERON*
> 
> *by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.*
> 
> THE YEAR WAS 2081, and everybody was finally equal. They weren't only equal before God and the law. They were equal every which way. Nobody was smarter than anybody else. Nobody was better looking than anybody else. Nobody was stronger or quicker than anybody else. All this equality was due to the 211th, 212th, and 213th Amendments to the Constitution, and to the unceasing vigilance of agents of the United States Handicapper General.
> Some things about living still weren't quite right, though. April for instance, still drove people crazy by not being springtime. And it was in that clammy month that the H-G men took George and Hazel Bergeron's fourteen-year-old son, Harrison, away.
> It was tragic, all right, but George and Hazel couldn't think about it very hard. Hazel had a perfectly average intelligence, which meant she couldn't think about anything except in short bursts. And George, while his intelligence was way above normal, had a little mental handicap radio in his ear. He was required by law to wear it at all times. It was tuned to a government transmitter. Every twenty seconds or so, the transmitter would send out some sharp noise to keep people like George from taking unfair advantage of their brains.
> George and Hazel were watching television. There were tears on Hazel's cheeks, but she'd forgotten for the moment what they were about.
> On the television screen were ballerinas.
> ...


Cont

----------


## Archer

> He finally gave up, handed the bulletin to a ballerina to read."That's all right-" Hazel said of the announcer, "he tried. That's the big thing. He tried to do the best he could with what God gave him. He should get a nice raise for trying so hard."
> "Ladies and Gentlemen," said the ballerina, reading the bulletin. She must have been extraordinarily beautiful, because the mask she wore was hideous. And it was easy to see that she was the strongest and most graceful of all the dancers, for her handicap bags were as big as those worn by two-hundred pound men.
> And she had to apologize at once for her voice, which was a very unfair voice for a woman to use. Her voice was a warm, luminous, timeless melody. "Excuse me-" she said, and she began again, making her voice absolutely uncompetitive.
> "Harrison Bergeron, age fourteen," she said in a grackle squawk, "has just escaped from jail, where he was held on suspicion of plotting to overthrow the government. He is a genius and an athlete, is under-handicapped, and should be regarded as extremely dangerous."
> A police photograph of Harrison Bergeron was flashed on the screen-upside down, then sideways, upside down again, then right side up. The picture showed the full length of Harrison against a background calibrated in feet and inches. He was exactly seven feet tall.
> The rest of Harrison's appearance was Halloween and hardware. Nobody had ever born heavier handicaps. He had outgrown hindrances faster than the H-G men could think them up. Instead of a little ear radio for a mental handicap, he wore a tremendous pair of earphones, and spectacles with thick wavy lenses. The spectacles were intended to make him not only half blind, but to give him whanging headaches besides.
> Scrap metal was hung all over him. Ordinarily, there was a certain symmetry, a military neatness to the handicaps issued to strong people, but Harrison looked like a walking junkyard. In the race of life, Harrison carried three hundred pounds.
> And to offset his good looks, the H-G men required that he wear at all times a red rubber ball for a nose, keep his eyebrows shaved off, and cover his even white teeth with black caps at snaggle-tooth random.
> "If you see this boy," said the ballerina, "do not - I repeat, do not - try to reason with him."
> ...

----------


## Archer

Add in 1984 and some others and some religious texts and things become clear.

Big brother is and will be watching.

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## Archer

You know I never thought all that crap, I did not think would be useful while in College , would be useful.

I think my fave class was a lit (heavy writing) class studying the early American writers. Wow!

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## Canadianeye

> You're doomed, Max. In the Brave New World you don't have to "intend" to do anything wrong. If you can get up, go to the bathroom, and return to bed without committing a felony it's pure luck.


It was quite a while ago, when Terry Brookes the pastor was first burning Qurans, that I came to a realization about predictable and unpredictable behavior.

Aside from what he was doing...that resulted in the President of the United States of America personally addressing him, I realized the power that just one person holds in this day and age.

I could take one Quran, tear out 13 sections of it, one at a time setting fire to them, piss on them, (whatever) and each with a different setting...and youtube the actions as if it was 13 different people. 10 from the Provinces and 3 from the territories where doing it.

I could bring a nation to such incredible global turmoil, that it just defies the imagination.

Why?

Because we have pandered to their fear, via political correctness and our politicians.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> It was quite a while ago, when Terry Brookes the pastor was first burning Qurans, that I came to a realization about predictable and unpredictable behavior.
> 
> Aside from what he was doing...that resulted in the President of the United States of America personally addressing him, I realized the power that just one person holds in this day and age.
> 
> I could take one Quran, tear out 13 sections of it, one at a time setting fire to them, piss on them, (whatever) and each with a different setting...and youtube the actions as if it was 13 different people. 10 from the Provinces and 3 from the territories where doing it.
> 
> I could bring a nation to such incredible global turmoil, that it just defies the imagination.
> 
> Why?
> ...


Or because most people (rightfully) think destroying/burning books is the act of a psychopathic madman ala Hitler, and just a generally despicable thing to do.

----------


## Archer

> Or because most people (rightfully) think destroying/burning books is the act of a psychopathic madman ala Hitler, and just a generally despicable thing to do.


And you should! What you should not do is stand in the way of the idiot wanting to burn those books. I support the Bible burners, Flag burners, Quran burners... I will stand with them. Make no mistake if I ever decide to move and they stand against me I will simply kill them.

----------

Calypso Jones (09-13-2013)

----------


## Calypso Jones

Not only have Bibles been burned but so have Christians...and still, they cannot be eliminated.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> And you should! What you should not do is stand in the way of the idiot wanting to burn those books. I support the Bible burners, Flag burners, Quran burners... I will stand with them. Make no mistake if I ever decide to move and they stand against me I will simply kill them.


I won't stand in his way. He's only making himself look like an ass, all for good theatre and optics with the holy war crowd. Doesn't mean I'm going to say it's a good idea.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Not only have Bibles been burned but so have Christians...and still, they cannot be eliminated.


Some of us are against all book burnings and violence, not just the ones done to our side.

----------


## Archer

> I won't stand in his way. He's only making himself look like an ass, all for good theatre and optics with the holy war crowd. Doesn't mean I'm going to say it's a good idea.


Waste of money if you ask me. That money could be better spent.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Waste of money if you ask me. That money could be better spent.


Right, like doing something to actually improve the world.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Some of us are against all book burnings and violence, not just the ones done to our side.


perhaps you miss the posts where I condemn muslim rape of 8 year old child brides?   and the beheading of male children?   wife killing, honor killings, killing and/or raping daughters, having sex with corpses?

----------


## The XL

Organized religion continues to make the world a better place.

It'd be nice if normal people didn't need to be caught in the crossfire.

----------


## Archer

> Right, like doing something to actually improve the world.


And who determines wht improves the world? 

You?
Me? Shit yeah! IQ lower than 95 can not breed! No forced integration upon regions! Death penalty for any felony of intent! No laws pertaining to blacks, whites, gays... No marriage laws, everyone pays the same tax one time (no death tax, no credits or deductions)...
Obama? 
The Aryan Brotherhood?
The Black Panthers?
Terrorists?

Tell me what is for the good of all?

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> perhaps you miss the posts where I condemn muslim rape of 8 year old child brides?   and the beheading of male children?   wife killing, honor killings, killing and/or raping daughters, having sex with corpses?


I would be able to take those seriously, were it not for the fact you're so blatantly trying to whip up anti-Islamic / racial sentiment, and so explicitly didn't give a shit about the amorality itself.

----------


## Calypso Jones

seems to me that socialists and communists are really interested in power in spite of what they claim...power over people...all people...cause they know better.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> perhaps you miss the posts where I condemn muslim rape of 8 year old child brides?   and the beheading of male children?   wife killing, honor killings, killing and/or raping daughters, having sex with corpses?


I didn't miss them. I also didn't miss the frequent posts where you almost seem to enjoy the idea of killing them all, or letting them kill each other off.

----------

Gerrard Winstanley (09-13-2013)

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> And who determines wht improves the world? 
> 
> You?
> Me? Shit yeah! IQ lower than 95 can not breed! No forced integration upon regions! Death penalty for any felony of intent! No laws pertaining to blacks, whites, gays... No marriage laws, everyone pays the same tax one time (no death tax, no credits or deductions)...
> Obama? 
> The Aryan Brotherhood?
> The Black Panthers?
> Terrorists?
> 
> Tell me what is for the good of all?


I think "good" is pretty fucking universal. "Good" is building irrigation systems in third world nations full of villages hundreds of years behind technologically, rather than destroying those villages with bombs because the leader of their country looked at you funny. "Good" is sending people into countries like Afghanistan to rescue the women and children tortured by their backward men, rather than putting a bullet through their skulls to stop the men. 

How am I doing so far?

----------


## Calypso Jones

> I think "good" is pretty fucking universal. "Good" is building irrigation systems in third world nations full of villages hundreds of years behind technologically, rather than destroying those villages with bombs because the leader of their country looked at you funny. "Good" is sending people into countries like Afghanistan to rescue the women and children tortured by their backward men, rather than putting a bullet through their skulls to stop the men. 
> 
> How am I doing so far?



were you educated in Middlebury Massachusetts?

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> seems to me that socialists and communists are really interested in power in spite of what they claim...power over people...all people...cause they know better.


 You've hit the nadir of all arguments when you start accusing your opponents of being communists.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> I didn't miss them. I also didn't miss the frequent posts where you almost seem to enjoy the idea of killing them all, or letting them kill each other off.


I would think you'd see the wisdom in letting them kill off each other...they're violent, brutal, without compassion.   They say they are coming after us.   If they're busy offing each other then we are not 'meddling' in their affairs with our foreign policy, we have our military here at home and not in their Godforsaken land.   And it gives them something constructive to do.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> You've hit the nadir of all arguments when you start accusing your opponents of being communists.


I accused no one.   Did you see a name mentioned in my post?   That was a thought that suddenly occurred to me because socialists and communists want to micromanage the lives of others....sorta like our president.

----------

Gerrard Winstanley (09-13-2013)

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> I accused no one.   Did you see a name mentioned in my post?   That was a thought that suddenly occurred to me because socialists and communists want to micromanage the lives of others....sorta like our president.


Hmph, alright. Aren't there better threads for it than that?

----------


## Archer

> I think "good" is pretty fucking universal. "Good" is building irrigation systems in third world nations full of villages hundreds of years behind technologically, rather than destroying those villages with bombs because the leader of their country looked at you funny. "Good" is sending people into countries like Afghanistan to rescue the women and children tortured by their backward men, rather than putting a bullet through their skulls to stop the men. 
> 
> How am I doing so far?


Oh sounds fine to me but would it also not be good to clean up our inner cities?

Still it is not good to the guy beating and killing his women because some cleric told him it was okay. And building water ways over there? Sure so they can simply destroy and neglect them? Nanny state?

These people have been killing each other for over 8000 years. Nothing we can do will stop that. They need to take care of it.

Yeah cause more people to hate us using our good will.

Those cultures are much older than your European model. They do not want to evolve out of the dark ages.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> were you educated in Middlebury Massachusetts?


Never been.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Oh sounds fine to me but would it also not be good to clean up our inner cities?
> 
> Still it is not good to the guy beating and killing his women because some cleric told him it was okay. And building water ways over there? Sure so they can simply destroy and neglect them? Nanny state?
> 
> These people have been killing each other for over 8000 years. Nothing we can do will stop that. They need to take care of it.
> 
> Yeah cause more people to hate us using our good will.
> 
> Those cultures are much older than your European model. They do not want to evolve out of the dark ages.


They would if we showed them a better way, instead of sweeping in, ordering them around, and blowing them up when they say no.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I would think you'd see the wisdom in letting them kill off each other...they're violent, brutal, without compassion.   They say they are coming after us.   If they're busy offing each other then we are not 'meddling' in their affairs with our foreign policy, we have our military here at home and not in their Godforsaken land.   And it gives them something constructive to do.


Letting them all kill each other off includes the innocent women and children you allegedly are concerned about. It also includes your Christian brethren and Jews that live in those nations.

----------


## Archer

> They would if we showed them a better way, instead of sweeping in, ordering them around, and blowing them up when they say no.


You think we have not? Look at where we have not gone... Muslim Africa!

Look at who has succeeded in places we have not gong, Iran, Turkey, Iraq (Before we screwed them up), Egypt, Jordan...

Those with strong (ruthless if necessary) leaders survive and do well compared to the ones with weak or no real leadership. And weak leadership? Look at Iraq and Afghanistan today. Pakistan? They were better off with the General!

Damnit man look around! Take notes.

----------


## Archer

> were you educated in Middlebury Massachusetts?


Yeah you lost me with that; scratches head and looks for tequila to gain understanding.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You think we have not? Look at where we have not gone... Muslim Africa!
> 
> Look at who has succeeded in places we have not gong, Iran, Turkey, Iraq (Before we screwed them up), Egypt, Jordan...
> 
> Those with strong (ruthless if necessary) leaders survive and do well compared to the ones with weak or no real leadership. And weak leadership? Look at Iraq and Afghanistan today. Pakistan? They were better off with the General!
> 
> Damnit man look around! Take notes.


There's a difference between going somewhere in an actual humanitarian capacity and going somewhere with the might of government force.

----------


## Archer

> There's a difference between going somewhere in an actual humanitarian capacity and going somewhere with the might of government force.


This is true but the fact is the thing stopping natural progression in these places is the inhabitants. Why would the oldest regions (civilized) of the world be so far behind the rest of us? Attitude.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> This is true but the fact is the thing stopping natural progression in these places is the inhabitants. Why would the oldest regions (civilized) of the world be so far behind the rest of us? Attitude.


Except there was a time when they were the innovators and leaders of civilization. Why is that? Why go from that to this?

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> This is true but the fact is the thing stopping natural progression in these places is the inhabitants. Why would the oldest regions (civilized) of the world be so far behind the rest of us? Attitude.


I guarantee the region would be infinitely less of a geopolitical pain up the butt if the colonial governments hadn't lumped the established enclaves into big chunks of ethnoreligious chaos with no basis in historiography. But I believe we discussed this last week.

----------


## Archer

> Except there was a time when they were the innovators and leaders of civilization. Why is that? Why go from that to this?


Look do not make me go into this shit because you will want to call Bigot!

It did start in (according to tradition) 1403 years ago in 610.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Letting them all kill each other off includes the innocent women and children you allegedly are concerned about. It also includes your Christian brethren and Jews that live in those nations.



you are just obtuse...but you know that.

----------


## Archer

> I guarantee the region would be infinitely less of a geopolitical pain up the butt if the colonial governments hadn't lumped the established enclaves into big chunks of ethnoreligious chaos with no basis in historiography. But I believe we discussed this last week.


Yeah conquest and payback. The Arabs (Islamists) did it as well and first.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> Yeah conquest and payback. The Arabs (Islamists) did it as well and first.


Elaborate?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> you are just obtuse...but you know that.


I'm not obtuse, you just refuse to consider the ramifications of the bullshit you suggest, then want to get pushy when I bring it up.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Look do not make me go into this shit because you will want to call Bigot!
> 
> It did start in (according to tradition) 1403 years ago in 610.


If it's anything like our regular tangles on this subject, you'll go into a long dissertation on the history of the region, I'll sigh and shake my head, then explain that you're going off on stuff I didn't say and we agree.

Then we'll get into it again a few posts later. Rinse and repeat. It's wearying.

----------


## Archer

> Elaborate?


In all seriousness here. Are you educated? I really need to know because I will not teach a history lesson. 

Let me say the Muslims were killing, taxing and forced converting long before the first crusade.

I feel like I am talking to a kid here, which is fine. I need to know you have some grasp on things before I continue. If not will you take some advice and read some books I may recommend?

----------


## Archer

> If it's anything like our regular tangles on this subject, you'll go into a long dissertation on the history of the region, I'll sigh and shake my head, then explain that you're going off on stuff I didn't say and we agree.
> 
> Then we'll get into it again a few posts later. Rinse and repeat. It's wearying.


So what is the issue then? We know the history and we see the outcome. How could we possibly help a peoples that are diametrically opposed to themselves? It is like trying to break up a fight between brothers (It is all about succession here) and the attitude is, do not touch my brother, only i can kick my brothers ass.

The region was never at peace.

Let the mother fucker burn.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So what is the issue then? We know the history and we see the outcome. How could we possibly help a peoples that are diametrically opposed to themselves? It is like trying to break up a fight between brothers (It is all about succession here) and the attitude is, do not touch my brother, only i can kick my brothers ass.
> 
> The region was never at peace.
> 
> Let the mother fucker burn.


We do it because it's right. Simple as that.

----------


## Archer

> We do it because it's right. Simple as that.


Yeah this is getting circular here. Who is it we support? The regime that some consider draconian or the AQ element that everyone but the AQ element consider monsters?

Let them fight and come to peace in a thousand or so years and then help them.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> We do it because it's right. Simple as that.



we involve ourselves in it because it is right????? Is THAT what you are saying??
Didn't you just tell us that the problems in the Middle East are of our own doing??

I thought we were supposed to get our noses outta there.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Organized religion continues to make the world a better place.
> 
> It'd be nice if normal people didn't need to be caught in the crossfire.


I can only surmise that you consider yourself one of those normal people caught in the crossfire.   HOW are you caught in the crossfire.   You entered this topic of your own free will.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> we involve ourselves in it because it is right????? Is THAT what you are saying??
> Didn't you just tell us that the problems in the Middle East are of our own doing??
> 
> I thought we were supposed to get our noses outta there.


Calypso, I'm done repeating myself. I get that you just like to argue, but do it with someone else. I'm done. I joined this site because I was told Trinnity wanted activists who are trying to make this country and the world a better place for ourselves and our children. That is all I've ever tried to do from day one, and that's what I'm going to go back to doing right now.

You know exactly what I said. This habit of yours to reinterpret it to mean the exact opposite just to get a rise out of me is done. Got it?

----------


## The XL

> I can only surmise that you consider yourself one of those normal people caught in the crossfire.   HOW are you caught in the crossfire.   You entered this topic of your own free will.


Lol, I'm not talking about this thread, I'm talking about all the mayhem organized religion has caused worldwide.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Yeah this is getting circular here. Who is it we support? The regime that some consider draconian or the AQ element that everyone but the AQ element consider monsters?
> 
> Let them fight and come to peace in a thousand or so years and then help them.


I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Calypso. Read what I wrote. If you can't address what I wrote, don't bother addressing me. I'm not talking about Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Buttfuckistan. I'm talking about the region in general. I'm not talking about our government siding with anyone in regional conflicts, I'm talking about working with ordinary people in those countries to improve their lives. 

Simple.

----------


## Archer

> I'm going to tell you the same thing I told Calypso. Read what I wrote. If you can't address what I wrote, don't bother addressing me. I'm not talking about Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Buttfuckistan. I'm talking about the region in general. I'm not talking about our government siding with anyone in regional conflicts, I'm talking about working with ordinary people in those countries to improve their lives. 
> 
> Simple.


Sorry I thought I was addressing it. What is the right thing to do in your eyes is not the same in the eyes of others. How the fuck you want to pay for that? Are you an undercover progressive going to take my money and send it to the other side of the world to help people who would love to rape and kill my children? There are places and people in our own country in need. Yeah most of them are no better and should burn as well but it is better to actually take care of our own first.

Back up and rethink this shit man. I am going to go full intellectual on your ass.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Are you an undercover progressive going to take my money and send it to the other side of the world when there are places and people in our own country in need?


 We have enough homeless vets and unemployed that needs jobs here. We need to get our own house in order first.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Sorry I thought I was addressing it. What is the right thing to do in your eyes is not the same in the eyes of others. How the fuck you want to pay for that? Are you an undercover progressive going to take my money and send it to the other side of the world to help people who would love to rape and kill my children? There are places and people in our own country in need. Yeah most of them are no better and should burn as well but it is better to actually take care of our own first.
> 
> Back up and rethink this shit man. I am going to go full intellectual on your ass.


No offense, but so far you're not doing so well. You think the government is just going to stop spending all the money they spend on interventionism? Get real. That money is going to be spent regardless, so why not just refocus it into being a peacemaker rather than a conqueror?

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Calypso, I'm done repeating myself. I get that you just like to argue, but do it with someone else. I'm done. I joined this site because I was told Trinnity wanted activists who are trying to make this country and the world a better place for ourselves and our children. That is all I've ever tried to do from day one, and that's what I'm going to go back to doing right now.
> 
> You know exactly what I said. This habit of yours to reinterpret it to mean the exact opposite just to get a rise out of me is done. Got it?


TP.  You are all over the place.  I defy anyone to get a clear idea of what you are talking about.

----------


## Archer

> No offense, but so far you're not doing so well. You think the government is just going to stop spending all the money they spend on interventionism? Get real. That money is going to be spent regardless, so why not just refocus it into being a peacemaker rather than a conqueror?


NO! The goal should be to stop the outflow of monies until we can get control of things at home.

Fucking keep our shit at home and pay our bills and debts!

----------

Roadmaster (09-13-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> TP.  You are all over the place.  I defy anyone to get a clear idea of what you are talking about.


There are plenty here. I'd be more than happy to help you understand myself, though. What mix up do you think is there?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> NO! The goal should be to stop the outflow of monies until we can get control of things at home.
> 
> Fucking keep our shit at home and pay our bills and debts!


I campaign for that, but until we get it, we need to be realistic.

----------


## Archer

> I campaign for that, but until we get it, we need to be realistic.


Damn why you always got to take the freaking road that allows opinion!

Say no to all of it or you are supporting anything they choose to do. We do not need to discuss the subjective or even allow ideas like your (still better than war, I give you that). We need to fight to get every one of the motherfuckers out of DC.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Damn why you always got to take the freaking road that allows opinion!
> 
> Say no to all of it or you are supporting anything they choose to do. We do not need to discuss the subjective or even allow ideas like your (still better than war, I give you that). We need to fight to get every one of the motherfuckers out of DC.


I do say no to all of it, but until I get my "no" position, I'm also going to work within the established system so that they can do less damage.

----------

Archer (09-13-2013)

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## Archer

> I do say no to all of it, but until I get my "no" position, I'm also going to work within the established system so that they can do less damage.


So it is do not spend the money but if you must then...

That is where they get you. Making exceptions (or giving an out) is why all this shit is going down now. The president has too much power, the Senate and President should not be directly elected, the war powers act is a mess and causes issues...

Hell no the people need to stand together and take control... Wait over half are bought off.
 @Thomas Paine there is no compromise.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> You're doomed, Max. In the Brave New World you don't have to "intend" to do anything wrong. If you can get up, go to the bathroom, and return to bed without committing a felony it's pure luck.


I'm not worried.  Panic is you like, but when you get up every morning, how many of your friends and family have been arrested for committing a felony? For 57 years my answer is "ZERO".  YMMV.  Details please on those  you know who were arrested.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So it is do not spend the money but if you must then...
> 
> That is where they get you. Making exceptions (or giving an out) is why all this shit is going down now. The president has too much power, the Senate and President should not be directly elected, the war powers act is a mess and causes issues...
> 
> Hell no the people need to stand together and take control... Wait over half are bought off.
>  @Thomas Paine there is no compromise.


No, no. That's not how you do it. I support compromise, but not the kind of pussy compromise they do these days. No, we stand up and say, "Look, you want to spend this money? Either you spend it on THIS, or you don't get to fucking spend it." They refuse, do everything you can to keep their vote on spemding to go through. Make the media rounds, drum up support on the streets, make them fucking HURT. 

That is how WE get THEM.

----------


## Archer

> No, no. That's not how you do it. I support compromise, but not the kind of pussy compromise they do these days. No, we stand up and say, "Look, you want to spend this money? Either you spend it on THIS, or you don't get to fucking spend it." They refuse, do everything you can to keep their vote on spemding to go through. Make the media rounds, drum up support on the streets, make them fucking HURT. 
> 
> That is how WE get THEM.


You have a good heart and good intentions but it would never fly with the shit we have now. Trust me it would go for one thing and be spent on another.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> In all seriousness here. Are you educated? I really need to know because I will not teach a history lesson. 
> 
> Let me say the Muslims were killing, taxing and forced converting long before the first crusade.
> 
> I feel like I am talking to a kid here, which is fine. I need to know you have some grasp on things before I continue. If not will you take some advice and read some books I may recommend?


Dude, I'm in my 30s. I'm not sure it's intentional, but drop the patronizing tone. And yes, I would consider myself educated - qualified in History, as a matter of fact. I've read thoroughly around Arab history, and, whilst I'm no expert authority on the subject, I don't think the truth's always been as simple as an anarchic, sectarian bloodbath. Something's gone horribly wrong down the line, and it's come back to bite us, and the peoples of the Middle East, in the ass.

If you've got a contrary opinion, I'd love to hear it. Always have time for this topic.

----------


## Archer

> Dude, I'm in my 30s. I'm not sure it's intentional, but drop the patronizing tone. And yes, I would consider myself educated - qualified in History, as a matter of fact. I've read thoroughly around Arab history, and, whilst I'm no expert authority on the subject, I don't think the truth's always been as simple as an anarchic, sectarian bloodbath. Something's gone horribly wrong down the line, and it's come back to bite us, and the peoples of the Middle East, in the ass.
> 
> If you've got a contrary opinion, I'd love to hear it. Always have time for this topic.


Actually I was trying not to be insulting. You never know when you are wasting your breath on a know nothing kid :Smile:  You know some of the history and that is enough. You are of a mature age and usually act it.

So let me ask you a question then. They had paganism (closest to Shinto) and then the Egyptian culture rose along with the eastern faiths and they killed each other, the Jews were the Jews but not much was done with that and Zoroastrianism (precursor to Judaism?) and a shit load of others... you had Christianity the Islam. The one common thing here is they never stopped killing each other and treating women like shit. Do you think we make a shit lick of difference? 

For well over 8000 years they have been doing this shit! Until the end of time or they kill themselves off they will kill each other.

----------


## Perianne

Okay, you history scholars.  When did Islam start the killing crap?

----------


## Archer

> Okay, you history scholars.  When did Islam start the killing crap?


They did not start it. It started long before recorded history. Islam was an invention of Mohammad to gain control of the violence and give the Arabs their own God. It did not work because the founder was a killer and hater and child molester himself. He wrote himself exemptions and designed the faith after himself.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Okay, you history scholars.  When did Islam start the killing crap?


As Archer said, they didn't. This sort of thing has gone on since there was more than one human walking about. Islam is merely a product of the violent, warring culture and era it was created in. Christians don't understand just how lucky they have it. Their religion was created during relatively peaceful times under the watchful eye of Rome. If they came about under the same circumstances as Islam, Christianity would be nearly identical to Islam.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> Actually I was trying not to be insulting. You never know when you are wasting your breath on a know nothing kid You know some of the history and that is enough. You are of a mature age and usually act it.
> 
> So let me ask you a question then. They had paganism (closest to Shinto) and then the Egyptian culture rose along with the eastern faiths and they killed each other, the Jews were the Jews but not much was done with that and Zoroastrianism (precursor to Judaism?) and a shit load of others... you had Christianity the Islam. The one common thing here is they never stopped killing each other and treating women like shit.
> 
> For well over 8000 years they have been doing this shit!


The Middle East is inherently tribal. Attitudes and customs are passed down from generation to generation with a sense of obligation we cannot even begin to comprehend in the West. To cite a good example, places like India have done a relatively good job in accommodating these inbuilt loyalties within the framework of a modern democracy (there are still rife social problems there, of course). The Arab states, on the other hand, have failed utterly.

Looking further back in history, the ME was once unified under a set of preceding empires as recently as the early-20th Century. You're not going to find any great secular or feminist tradition in the Ottoman or Umayyad caliphates, but what you _did_ have was a consistent degree of stability the Assads, Mubaraks and Morsis of today can only yearn for. Whilst Christendom was stuck in a disjointed medieval quagmire, the Arab world was churning out some of the finest scholars and scientists of their day.

Am I proposing the region would be better off condensed into a great big caliphate again? No. But I feel that a flurry of despots and artificial borders forced upon the Arabs by the UN and the Europeans - completely at odds with all traditions and ethnic norms -, coupled with a whole malaise of social factors so dull and obvious I won't even bother to outline them here, have lent popular credence to a radical, pseudo-nationalist fundamentalism that fuels the violent and heavy conflicts we see today.

If you want an example of an organic Muslim state, one which has cultivated a strong national identity and is not plagued by the clannishness that wins the day elsewhere, look at Turkey. It's not perfect, but it trumps Iraq, Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia and Yemen any time.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-13-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> As Archer said, they didn't. This sort of thing has gone on since there was more than one human walking about. Islam is merely a product of the violent, warring culture and era it was created in. Christians don't understand just how lucky they have it. Their religion was created during relatively peaceful times under the watchful eye of Rome. If they came about under the same circumstances as Islam, Christianity would be nearly identical to Islam.


I know THEY didn't start it.  I was asking when THEY decided that killing others is a good thing to do religion-wise.

And it is conjecture to state that Christians would be the same.  No way to know that, right?

----------


## Network

http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...stine+agencies
*Heads of Clandestine Agencies and Fatherland Security
*

Summary:

CIA has been controlled by Roman Catholics and Episcopalians since the early 90s.  Other important crusading figures came out of Georgetown University.  It is what it is.

Elder Bush raised his son as an Episcopalian, Bush the Younger converted...to skull&bones I suppose.  Obozo attends the Episcopalian Church directly across from the White House when he decides to play pretend.

----------


## Archer

> The Middle East is inherently tribal. Attitudes and customs are passed down from generation to generation with a sense of obligation we cannot even begin to comprehend in the West. To cite a good example, places like India have done a relatively good job in accommodating these inbuilt loyalties within the framework of a modern democracy (there are still rife social problems there, of course). The Arab states, on the other hand, have failed utterly.
> 
> Looking further back in history, the ME was once unified under a set of preceding empires as recently as the early-20th Century. You're not going to find any great secular or feminist tradition in the Ottoman or Umayyad caliphates, but what you _did_ have was a consistent degree of stability the Assads, Mubaraks and Morsis of today can only yearn for. Whilst Christendom was stuck in a disjointed medieval quagmire, the Arab world was churning out some of the finest scholars and scientists of their day.
> 
> Am I proposing the region would be better off condensed into a great big caliphate again? No. But I feel that a flurry of despots and artificial borders forced upon the Arabs by the UN and the Europeans - completely at odds with all traditions and ethnic norms -, coupled with a whole malaise of social factors so dull and obvious I won't even bother to outline them here, have lent popular credence to a radical, pseudo-nationalist fundamentalism that fuels the violent and heavy conflicts we see today.
> 
> If you want an example of an organic Muslim state, one which has cultivated a strong national identity and is not plagued by the clannishness that wins the day elsewhere, look at Turkey. It's not perfect, but it trumps Iraq, Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia and Yemen any time.


And what is the common thread here? Iron handed rule! But with those relatively peaceful times cam war and conquest to direct the hate of the lemmings.

Ottoman empire? Centuries of military conquest and negotiated conquest and the Umayyad Caliphate was much the same. What differs is the treatment of non Muslims during the strongest times of these empires. People were treated well and not forced to convert.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I know THEY didn't start it.  I was asking when THEY decided that killing others is a good thing to do religion-wise.


The day Islam turned violent. It was while Muhammad was still alive. It actually started peacefully, but as Muhammad grew older and (in my opinion) more senile, he got more violent. 




> And it is conjecture to state that Christians would be the same.  No way to know that, right?


Not really, there's no logical reason to think otherwise. The religion started in the same region. If it had started at the same period in history, there's no other conclusion to be drawn. It's the culture, not the religion, that makes this stuff happen. Religions are products of their cultural origins. Judaism to date is one of the only ones that started during a relatively war-like cultural era and yet evolved into one of doing good and avoiding things like war. 

So yes, I can say with certainty that Christianity would have been a nearly identical religion to Islam, if they were created in the same cultural era. However, I'm not certain it would have stayed that way.

----------


## Perianne

> *Not really, there's no logical reason to think otherwise.* The religion started in the same region. If it had started at the same period in history, there's no other conclusion to be drawn. It's the culture, not the religion, that makes this stuff happen. Religions are products of their cultural origins. Judaism to date is one of the only ones that started during a relatively war-like cultural era and yet evolved into one of doing good and avoiding things like war. 
> 
> So yes, I can say with certainty that Christianity would have been a nearly identical religion to Islam, if they were created in the same cultural era. However, I'm not certain it would have stayed that way.


If Judaism did it, then Christianity could have done it, too.  No way for us to know, though.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> If Judaism did it, then Christianity could have done it, too.  No way for us to know, though.


Judaism evolved into that, courtesy of a migratory period post-Egyptian slavery and a loooooong stint as slaves to other cultures. It did not start out that way though. That was my point about Christianity. If started under similar circumstances, Christianity would start just like Islam. Whether or not it would stay that way is what we can't know for certain.

----------


## Perianne

> Judaism evolved into that, courtesy of a migratory period post-Egyptian slavery and a loooooong stint as slaves to other cultures. It did not start out that way though. That was my point about Christianity. If started under similar circumstances, Christianity would start just like Islam. Whether or not it would stay that way is what we can't know for certain.


You have interesting thoughts.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You have interesting thoughts.


I've spent my life studying history and world cultures rather than enjoying my childhood and teenage years like everybody else. It's a bit of a curse, but a useful one.

----------

Perianne (09-13-2013)

----------


## Archer

> Judaism evolved into that, courtesy of a migratory period post-Egyptian slavery and a loooooong stint as slaves to other cultures. It did not start out that way though. That was my point about Christianity. If started under similar circumstances, Christianity would start just like Islam. Whether or not it would stay that way is what we can't know for certain.


Well I disagree and my faith has a bit to do with that but your point is very valid no matter how I feel about it. Just as today and throughout the history of the faith it has been used as a tool of destruction.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Well I disagree and my faith has a bit to do with that but your point is very valid no matter how I feel about it. Just as today and throughout the history of the faith it has been used as a tool of destruction.


Precisely. Both Christianity and Judaism have had their violent periods - Christianity was no saint during the Medieval era - but the difference is, they came out of it and moved on to the bigger picture. Islam has not, but then, their culture has stagnated...largely because of Western meddling (though nobody wants to admit it).

----------


## Perianne

> Islam has not, but then, their culture has stagnated...largely because of Western meddling (though nobody wants to admit it).


Okay.  Please explain how it is everyone's fault but their own that they behave like animals.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Okay.  Please explain how it is everyone's fault but their own that they behave like animals.


I did not say that. It's certainly their fault first and any others second. But we also can't ignore the fact that Western meddling has led to the demise of many civilized Arab democracies. Iran was once a very civilized democracy in the 50s, until we helped Britain overthrow their democratically elected leaders, unleashing a brutal tyrant on them and leading to the Islamic Revolution that put Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollah in power.

----------

Archer (09-13-2013),Perianne (09-13-2013)

----------


## Network

Here's who signed the letter urging Obama to attack Syria.


_Ammar Abdulhamid

Elliott Abrams

Dr. Fouad Ajami

Dr. Michael Auslin

Gary Bauer

Paul Berman

Max Boot

Ellen Bork

Ambassador L. Paul Bremer

Matthew R. J. Brodsky

Dr. Eliot A. Cohen

Senator Norm Coleman

Ambassador William Courtney

Seth Cropsey

James S. Denton

Paula A. DeSutter

Larry Diamond

Dr. Paula J. Dobriansky

Thomas Donnelly

Dr. Michael Doran

Mark Dubowitz

Dr. Colin Dueck

Dr. Nicholas Eberstadt

Ambassador Eric S. Edelman

Reuel Marc Gerecht

Abe Greenwald

Christopher J. Griffin

John P. Hannah

Bruce Pitcairn Jackson

Ash Jain

Dr. Kenneth Jensen

Allison Johnson

Dr. Robert G. Joseph

Dr. Robert Kagan

Lawrence F. Kaplan

Jamie Kirchick

Irina Krasovskaya

Dr. William Kristol

Bernard-Henri Levy

Dr. Robert J. Lieber

Senator Joseph I. Lieberman

Tod Lindberg

Dr. Thomas G. Mahnken

Dr. Michael Makovsky

Ann Marlowe

Dr. Clifford D. May

Dr. Alan Mendoza

Dr. Joshua Muravchik

Governor Tim Pawlenty

Martin Peretz

Danielle Pletka

Dr. David Pollock

Arch Puddington

Karl Rove

Randy Scheunemann

Dan Senor

Ambassador John Shattuck

Lee Smith

Henry D. Sokolski 


__What do you see in those names?_

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Here's who signed the letter urging Obama to attack Syria.
> 
> 
> _Ammar Abdulhamid
> 
> Elliott Abrams
> 
> Dr. Fouad Ajami
> 
> ...


That it's all over the political spectrum?

----------


## Network

Jew City

PNACking NeoCons back at it.

That doesn't mean that the Jews are the main players, mostly pawns in the game I've come to find.  Besides, they didn't stick themselves in incompatible territory that had nothing to do with WWII.  Someone else stuck them there.  They were just helpless campers.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...stine+agencies
> *Heads of Clandestine Agencies and Fatherland Security
> *
> 
> Summary:
> 
> CIA has been controlled by Roman Catholics and Episcopalians since the early 90s.  Other important crusading figures came out of Georgetown University.  It is what it is.
> 
> Elder Bush raised his son as an Episcopalian, Bush the Younger converted...to skull&bones I suppose.  Obozo attends the Episcopalian Church directly across from the White House when he decides to play pretend.


Peri and Rina got in a fight over you?  WTFO?

----------


## Network

> Peri and Rina got in a fight over you?  WTFO?


I told Peri that her mama was black and Trinnity suspended me.  Rina used to like me until I realized that Babylon = Rome.

They just wanted to fight, it wasn't over me.  Don't know where you heard that.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I told Peri that her mama was black and Trinnity suspended me.  Rina used to like me until I realized that Babylon = Rome.
> 
> They just wanted to fight, it wasn't over me.  Don't know where you heard that.


Why did you tell Peri her mama was black?  Did you have facts or were you just lying?

----------


## Network

> Why did you tell Peri her mama was black?  Did you have facts or were you just lying?



Was obviously joking off of something she already said.  I said her mama was a "black teenager" so "black teenager" must've been somewhere in the thread. Perianne took it seriously for some lame reason.

I know now it's because her mama was a black teenager.

I'm half black and half North Korean.

----------


## Perianne

> I know now it's because her mama was a black teenager.


I got my looks from her.

----------

Network (09-13-2013)

----------


## Network

> I got my looks from her.



Speak of the Nagger!

I arpologize

----------

Perianne (09-13-2013)

----------


## Perianne

> Speak of the Nagger!
> 
> I arpologize


Still not as good as "I vomit upon VIP status".

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-13-2013)

----------


## Network

> Still not as good as "I vomit upon VIP status".



That was at a moment of weakness.  I don't take such accolades lightly.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Still not as good as "I vomit upon VIP status".


Yeah, gotta say, that made my day. Hilarious.

----------

Network (09-13-2013)

----------


## Network

> Yeah, gotta say, that made my day. Hilarious.



lol.  It was a joyful nervous vomit.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-13-2013)

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> Was obviously joking off of something she already said.  I said her mama was a "black teenager" so "black teenager" must've been somewhere in the thread. Perianne took it seriously for some lame reason.
> 
> I know now it's because her mama was a black teenager.
> 
> *I'm half black and half North Korean.*


Truth or a lie?

----------


## The XL

Jimmy doesn't lie.  He's actually Benson Henderson, a half black/half korean former UFC Champ and Illuminati member.

----------

Network (09-13-2013)

----------


## Calypso Jones

illuminati!!   That guy is doing a show and tell...TRI-angle.

----------


## Network

My little brother, so silly.  He took so many lashes from me and Kim Jong that he's rebelled with such fervor to flash an anglo-egyptian pyramid at his matches.  He's still a lil'bitch.

BTW, isn't it funny how the North Korean leaders change their last names instead of their first?

Kim'Il was so pissed when 'Un went to Switzerland for his education.  He could've been assassinated so easily, but those silly westerners always need a boogieman.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> It's the nature of religion to oppose that which refuses to accept it. Let's not pretend Christians fall in line like ducks in a row when the U.S. government - or any government - does something anti-Christianity.


I disagree completely and defy you to post some type of reference or link or anything.

----------


## Roadmaster

> You have interesting thoughts.


Not really on Islam.

----------


## kilgram

> The Middle East is inherently tribal. Attitudes and customs are passed down from generation to generation with a sense of obligation we cannot even begin to comprehend in the West. To cite a good example, places like India have done a relatively good job in accommodating these inbuilt loyalties within the framework of a modern democracy (there are still rife social problems there, of course). The Arab states, on the other hand, have failed utterly.
> 
> Looking further back in history, the ME was once unified under a set of preceding empires as recently as the early-20th Century. You're not going to find any great secular or feminist tradition in the Ottoman or Umayyad caliphates, but what you _did_ have was a consistent degree of stability the Assads, Mubaraks and Morsis of today can only yearn for. Whilst Christendom was stuck in a disjointed medieval quagmire, the Arab world was churning out some of the finest scholars and scientists of their day.
> 
> Am I proposing the region would be better off condensed into a great big caliphate again? No. But I feel that a flurry of despots and artificial borders forced upon the Arabs by the UN and the Europeans - completely at odds with all traditions and ethnic norms -, coupled with a whole malaise of social factors so dull and obvious I won't even bother to outline them here, have lent popular credence to a radical, pseudo-nationalist fundamentalism that fuels the violent and heavy conflicts we see today.
> 
> If you want an example of an organic Muslim state, one which has cultivated a strong national identity and is not plagued by the clannishness that wins the day elsewhere, look at Turkey. It's not perfect, but it trumps Iraq, Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia and Yemen any time.


In Afghanistan for example in the beginning of the XX century there was an intent of modernization, public schools for everybody, construction of train, laicist system of justice, freedom of press, slavery abolition, legislative assembly, and many other reforms, all this under the rule of Amanullah Khan. But that was too much for the society and he was forced to abdicate and the conservative forces that came after destroyed everything that he tried, included the train.

Link about the construction of the "Versalles Palace" to hold the legislative assembly and its ruins.

Extra, a photo of his wife and her dressing style (as you can see he also tried to with the dressing codes):

I always I've said and I always I will say: the problem is the education. These countries have a really low level of alphabetism.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> In Afghanistan for example in the beginning of the XX century there was an intent of modernization, public schools for everybody, construction of train, laicist system of justice, freedom of press, slavery abolition, legislative assembly, and many other reforms, all this under the rule of Amanullah Khan. But that was too much for the society and he was forced to abdicate and the conservative forces that came after destroyed everything that he tried, included the train.
> 
> Link about the construction of the "Versalles Palace" to hold the legislative assembly and its ruins.
> 
> Extra, a photo of his wife and her dressing style (as you can see he also tried to with the dressing codes):
> 
> I always I've said and I always I will say: the problem is the education. These countries have a really low level of alphabetism.


The kingdom, and in turn the Communists, were never popular in Afghanistan. It's far too rigid and backward a society to accommodate reform.

----------


## kilgram

> The kingdom, and in turn the Communists, were never popular in Afghanistan. It's far too rigid and backward a society to accommodate reform.


Yeah, the Communists tried similar reforms and also they utterly failed. They should have been checked the history and go more slowly, maybe they would have succeeded.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> And what is the common thread here? Iron handed rule! But with those relatively peaceful times cam war and conquest to direct the hate of the lemmings.
> 
> Ottoman empire? Centuries of military conquest and negotiated conquest and the Umayyad Caliphate was much the same. What differs is the treatment of non Muslims during the strongest times of these empires. People were treated well and not forced to convert.


Not saying they wasn't authoritarian, but the caliphates were decentralised to an extent where it's impossible to make any sweeping deduction regarding their leadership.

Nope, I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the empires were perceived as "legitimate" by a significant portion of the subjugated Muslim population, something the modern, typically foreign-influenced or foreign-installed Arab governments struggle with.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> Yeah, the Communists tried similar reforms and also they utterly failed. They should have been checked the history and go more slowly, maybe they would have succeeded.


Imposing Marxist-Leninism on a ragtag, paternalistic desert culture is like sending iPhones and modern supercomputers back to the cavemen. But then, the Soviet administrators always failed when outside of their Moscow comfort-zone.

----------


## kilgram

> Imposing Marxist-Leninism on a ragtag, paternalistic desert culture is like sending iPhones and modern supercomputers back to the cavemen. But then, the Soviet administrators always failed when outside of their Moscow comfort-zone.


Well, for what I know, that were the Communist Afghans that tried that, and even from Moscow they were advised to go more slowly.

----------


## patrickt

Sorry, but as an elderly atheists, I don't see much difference between the brands of Crusaders other than the degree at the moment. With true believers, the degree of the violence can change rapidly..

----------


## Max Rockatansky

Regardless if it is a primitive society or a modern one, communism and socialism don't work as primary systems on a national level.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-14-2013)

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> Regardless if it is a primitive society or a modern one, communism and socialism don't work as primary systems on a national level.


I agree, but Russia and China were at least semi-industrialised before the communists seized power. Good luck proposing socialism to a load of Pashtun elders living in tents in the desert.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I disagree completely and defy you to post some type of reference or link or anything.


Do you sit back quietly and ignore the government when they do things that approve of abortion, gay marriage, gay adoption, etc.?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Regardless if it is a primitive society or a modern one, communism and socialism don't work as primary systems on a national level.


And pre-Marx, socialism was never meant to be a national system.

----------


## Max Rockatansky

> I agree, but Russia and China were at least semi-industrialised before the communists seized power. Good luck proposing socialism to a load of Pashtun elders living in tents in the desert.


Communal social structures do work on a tribal basis as Native Americans and others have shown.  It's above that level where it starts to fall apart.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Regardless if it is a primitive society or a modern one, communism and socialism don't work as primary systems on a national level.


darn right...what socialism/communism do is take a perfectly good system and turn it into a God forsaken 3rd world one.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> Communal social structures do work on a tribal basis as Native Americans and others have shown.  It's above that level where it starts to fall apart.


The Native American system is a world away from Marxism.

----------


## Gerrard Winstanley

> darn right...what socialism/communism do is take a perfectly good system and turn it into a God forsaken 3rd world one.


You can't see anything wrong with Russian feudalism? Chinese peonage was perfectly good?

----------


## Roadmaster

What is the difference between Muslims, Christians, Jewish? The biggest is the rule " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  Muslims don't go by this. While it is true God sent Christians to war in the OT it was only for that time. These passages do not apply to you unless you are a Hittite, Girgashite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, Jebusite, or Amalekite and only for that time. Mohammad was belittled by the Jewish and showed anger as he kept writing and also spoke to discerned spirits which led him astray in his teachings. But he did tell them to bless Jesus and his followers for he didn't know where his followers were to end up in Heaven or Hell.  Muhammad is different from many of the other founders of religion. Sura 47:4 says, When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Sura 9:5 says, Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleager them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.  Sura 9:29, jihad is a religious duty and their is no time limit in the Quran. Christians grow up hearing but God so loved the world that.... and we have a personal relationship with Him. Not so with Muslims, Allah doesn't love the unbelievers, but we believe that all fall and sin and He died for all to be saved that will come to Him.

----------

Perianne (09-14-2013)

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## Archer

> What is the difference between Muslims, Christians, Jewish? The biggest is the rule " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  Muslims don't go by this. While it is true God sent Christians to war in the OT it was only for that time. These passages do not apply to you unless you are a Hittite, Girgashite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite, Jebusite, or Amalekite and only for that time. Mohammad was belittled by the Jewish and showed anger as he kept writing and also spoke to discerned spirits which led him astray in his teachings. But he did tell them to bless Jesus and his followers for he didn't know where his followers were to end up in Heaven or Hell.  Muhammad is different from many of the other founders of religion. Sura 47:4 says, “When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.” Sura 9:5 says, “Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleager them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.”  Sura 9:29, jihad is a religious duty and their is no time limit in the Quran. Christians grow up hearing but God so loved the world that.... and we have a personal relationship with Him. Not so with Muslims, Allah doesn't love the unbelievers, but we believe that all fall and sin and He died for all to be saved that will come to Him.


God did not ever send Christians to war! Hebrews (Jews) yes but Christians absolutely not! The Tribes of which Christians are not part. The people of the OT lived under the law not under grace! They lived under a curse that no man could avoid! They lived under a yoke of bondage!




> *Galatians 5:1-5*
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith *Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.*
> 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
> 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
> 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, *whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.*
> 
> 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


People do not seem to want to talk about this! When a preacher goes to Malachi and tells you how to give  - he is trying to put you to the yoke! He is trying to put you to the LAW! He is wanting you to stray from grace.

We are commanded to give joyously! Be it a little or a lot! More than that though we are asked to live in Christ.

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## Roadmaster

You are right I shouldn't have said Christians, just was talking about the OT.

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Archer (09-14-2013)

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## Archer

> You are right I shouldn't have said Christians, just was talking about the OT.


I kind of figured that and we have some good people on this forum but the progressives read that shit and take it to the bank. Honestly there are way too many preachers teaching that the Jews were Christians and the OT applies. It is how they control and manipulate. Still there are plenty of good preachers out there who do reference the OT because it is their job to do so.

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## Max Rockatansky

> The Native American system is a world away from Marxism.


Agreed.  I was speaking in terms of communal societies such as Native Americans which predate Marx by centuries.  

http://www.sociologyguide.com/basic-concepts/c.php



> *Communal society*An ideal type society in which most of the everyday life is regulated by tradition, custom and mores and in which there is relatively little emphasis on individual responsibility.

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> Agreed. I was speaking in terms of communal societies such as Native Americans which predate Marx by centuries. 
> 
> http://www.sociologyguide.com/basic-concepts/c.php
> [/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]


I think every pre-modern society could fall under that definition, but the Native Americans are a good recent example

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Archer (09-14-2013)

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## Max Rockatansky

> I think every pre-modern society could fall under that definition, but the Native Americans are a good recent example


Agreed on both points.  We all began as tribal societies.  Some more recent than others.

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Gerrard Winstanley (09-15-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> God did not ever send Christians to war! Hebrews (Jews) yes but Christians absolutely not! The Tribes of which Christians are not part. The people of the OT lived under the law not under grace! They lived under a curse that no man could avoid! They lived under a yoke of bondage!
> 
> 
> 
> People do not seem to want to talk about this! When a preacher goes to Malachi and tells you how to give  - he is trying to put you to the yoke! He is trying to put you to the LAW! He is wanting you to stray from grace.
> 
> We are commanded to give joyously! Be it a little or a lot! More than that though we are asked to live in Christ.


Total hogwash, but typical for Christian theology. Ironically, your religion started as Judaism, but now your theology has no fucking idea what Judaism is or teaches.

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## Calypso Jones

no....Archer is right.  The God of Israel has not sent Christians to war as in WAR.  Now there ARE righteous wars and I don't think God has a  problem with that.  The reason I say that is that God used enemy nations to punish Jadah and Israel for their wickedness as he used the Israelites/Hebrews to punish other nations.   

Do you know that the first time Abraham is called a/an Hebrew is in Genesis 12 I think it is? 12 or 13.    It's when Lot was taken prisoner by King Chedorlaomer.   One who escaped came to Abraham, THE HEBREW, and told him his nephew was a prisoner of war.

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## Archer

> Total hogwash, but typical for Christian theology. Ironically, your religion started as Judaism, but now your theology has no fucking idea what Judaism is or teaches.


I think you better check yourself - before you wreck yourself - son.

Oh I can refrence the Bible to back every word! Or do you like to pick and choose like most self proclaimed christians (little c)? Oh we will ignore Paul and everything after the Gospels.

Yup, ignore them and you follow a mad Jew, who died.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I think you better check yourself - before you wreck yourself - son.
> 
> Oh I can refrence the Bible to back every word! Or do you like to pick and choose like most self proclaimed christians (little c)? Oh we will ignore Paul and everything after the Gospels.
> 
> Yup, ignore them and you follow a mad Jew, who died.


The theology of grace originated in Judaism, not Christianity, and was based in what you call the "Old Testament." So, sure, let's do this.

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## Archer

> The theology of grace originated in Judaism, not Christianity, and was based in what you call the "Old Testament." So, sure, let's do this.


Wait you just kicked your own ass. No matter the origins it is not Judaism! Jesus was a Jew you know but lets play.

Show me one time God ordered Christians (this is plural by the way) to kill. Remember the OT, to the Christian, is a book of history and not a book of laws!

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Wait you just kicked your own ass. No matter the origins it is not Judaism! Jesus was a Jew you know but lets play.


Bullshit. Where's your proof? Grace has always been a theology of Judaism.




> Show me one time God ordered Christians (this is plural by the way) to kill. Remember the OT, to the Christian, is a book of history and not a book of laws!


Strawman. I never said Christians were commanded to kill. I'm arguing your (common, but ignorant) claim that grace is a theology unique to Christianity.

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## Roadmaster

> Bullshit. Where's your proof? Grace has always been a theology of Judaism.


 show us

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## Archer

> Bullshit. Where's your proof? Grace has always been a theology of Judaism.
> 
> 
> 
> Strawman. I never said Christians were commanded to kill. I'm arguing your (common, but ignorant) claim that grace is a theology unique to Christianity.


Law does not equal Grace!

According to Christian scripture no mortal man can live up to the LAW! This is why Christ came to deliver us from that yoke of bondage that was the law.

Is this saying that God showed no Grace in the OT? No but it is saying that we are under grace if we are in Christ.

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## Archer

> God did not ever send Christians to war! Hebrews (Jews) yes but Christians absolutely not! The Tribes of which Christians are not part. The people of the OT lived under the law not under grace! They lived under a curse that no man could avoid! They lived under a yoke of bondage!
> 
> 
> 
> People do not seem to want to talk about this! When a preacher goes to Malachi and tells you how to give  - he is trying to put you to the yoke! He is trying to put you to the LAW! He is wanting you to stray from grace.
> 
> We are commanded to give joyously! Be it a little or a lot! More than that though we are asked to live in Christ.





> Total hogwash, but typical for Christian theology. Ironically, your religion started as Judaism, but now your theology has no fucking idea what Judaism is or teaches.


As to the shit you want to talk? Your fucking words, not mine. So yeah you said they killed at the order of God by saying I was full of shit and had no idea what I was talking about.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> show us


It's the principle of "teshuva," or "turning." G-d gives all men, no matter how evil, the opportunity to turn from their evil and to His way.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Law does not equal Grace!
> 
> According to Christian scripture no mortal man can live up to the LAW! This is why Christ came to deliver us from that yoke of bondage that was the law.
> 
> Is this saying that God showed no Grace in the OT? No but it is saying that we are under grace if we are in Christ.


That's nice that your Christian scriptures teach you that, but it's completely irrelevant to the fact that Judaism also teaches that G-d grants grace to all men.

As for the law being "bondage," that's once again a fabrication by a group of people that's never actually tried to follow it. I follow the law every day, to the best of my ability, and it's not "bondage" at all, in any sense of the word. It's very freeing and gives you a sense of purpose.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> As to the shit you want to talk? Your fucking words, not mine. So yeah you said they killed at the order of God by saying I was full of shit and had no idea what I was talking about.


No, I was talking about the grace bit, not the killing bit. I've never once brought up the killing bit.

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## Archer

> God did not ever send Christians to war! Hebrews (Jews) yes but Christians absolutely not! The Tribes of which Christians are not part. The people of the OT lived under the law not under grace! They lived under a curse that no man could avoid! They lived under a yoke of bondage!
> 
> 
> 
> People do not seem to want to talk about this! When a preacher goes to Malachi and tells you how to give  - he is trying to put you to the yoke! He is trying to put you to the LAW! He is wanting you to stray from grace.
> 
> We are commanded to give joyously! Be it a little or a lot! More than that though we are asked to live in Christ.





> That's nice that your Christian scriptures teach you that, but it's completely irrelevant to the fact that Judaism also teaches that G-d grants grace to all men.
> 
> As for the law being "bondage," that's once again a fabrication by a group of people that's never actually tried to follow it. I follow the law every day, to the best of my ability, and it's not "bondage" at all, in any sense of the word. It's very freeing and gives you a sense of purpose.


Where do you sacrifice your acceptable animals? Crap you are part gay... Kill yourself! Better bury your shit on the other side of the hill... Better pay that 10%...

Bull fucking shit!

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## Archer

> No, I was talking about the grace bit, not the killing bit. I've never once brought up the killing bit.


Well thank you for clearing that up.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Where do you sacrifice your acceptable animals?


I can't, because the Temple no longer exists. Malachi tells us to substitute our sacrifices with prayer until the Temple is rebuilt. 




> Crap you are part gay... Kill yourself!


Yeah, no. You've completely missed the point.




> Better bury your shit on the other side of the hill...


Uhm...what?




> Better pay that 10%...


I pay 60%.




> Bull fucking shit!


You should stop, bull shit is not a pleasant fucking experience. Use your wife for that.

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## Archer

> I can't, because the Temple no longer exists. Malachi tells us to substitute our sacrifices with prayer until the Temple is rebuilt. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, no. You've completely missed the point.
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm...what?
> ...


Let me be clear about one thing... Family stays out of this shit. No more. I do not bring that into things and others should not either.

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## Archer

> I can't, because the Temple no longer exists. Malachi tells us to substitute our sacrifices with prayer until the Temple is rebuilt. 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, no. You've completely missed the point.
> 
> 
> 
> Uhm...what?
> ...


So the temple is the place that has been ordained for you to make offerings? Well you should go to that site every seven years and get drunk and high! or whatever else pleases your soul.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Let me be clear about one thing... Family stays out of this shit. No more. I do not bring that into things and others should not either.


It was a joke, I wasn't trying to attack your wife. But you're right, that was too close to inappropriate. I apologize.

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Perianne (09-15-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So the temple is the place that has been ordained for you to make offerings? Well you should go to that site every seven years and get drunk and high! or whatever else pleases your soul.


Except the Temple no longer exists. 

Are you still going to prove to me that grace is unique to Christianity, or should I accept these deflections as a sign that you're conceding?

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## Irascible Crusader

> Communal social structures do work on a tribal basis as Native Americans and others have shown.  It's above that level where it starts to fall apart.


And in fact it proves how primitive socialism is. My people were less advanced than even ancient civilizations that existed thousands of years ago.  Socialism didn't lead to advancement of our society, quite the opposite.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> And in fact it proves how primitive socialism is. My people were less advanced than even ancient civilizations that existed thousands of years ago.  Socialism didn't lead to advancement of our society, quite the opposite.


The connection you made was a total stretch, but I'll give you an A for effort at least.

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## Archer

> Except the Temple no longer exists. 
> 
> Are you still going to prove to me that grace is unique to Christianity, or should I accept these deflections as a sign that you're conceding?


Well I thought I was clear on that. God has and always had grace but this does not mean that anything I said was incorrect. According to scripture Christians are under grace and Jews are under the LAW!

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## Archer

> It was a joke, I wasn't trying to attack your wife. But you're right, that was too close to inappropriate. I apologize.


No problem. I did not go off because I know you meant no harm.

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Perianne (09-15-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (09-15-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Well I thought I was clear on that. God has and always had grace but this does not mean that anything I said was incorrect. According to scripture Christians are under grace and Jews are under the LAW!


Yes, and my point is that Jewish teaching holds that all people are under grace. The law is just a ways of following G-d, no different than the commands Jesus laid down for y'all. Ironically, only Christians view the law as "bondage," Jews do not.

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## Max Rockatansky

> And in fact it proves how primitive socialism is. My people were less advanced than even ancient civilizations that existed thousands of years ago.  Socialism didn't lead to advancement of our society, quite the opposite.


Agreed.  The differences between East and West Germany upon unification were starkly clear for all to see.  The same goes for the present North and South Koreas.

In the Americas, the failure and near-collapse of Venezuela last year is another reminder that Socialism doesn't work. 

Capitalism is the Golden Goose. It should be nurtured and used.   Socialism kills it and everyone enjoys a short morsel of meat and feather before ending up worse than they were before.

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## Irascible Crusader

> The connection you made was a total stretch, but I'll give you an A for effort at least.


How is it a total stretch? Or is this yet another example of you claiming intellectual high ground that you haven't achieved?

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