# Politics and News > Rants, Opinions, Observations >  I love this country

## Sinestro/Green Arrow

I know it's not convenient for some ignorant people to believe some liberals are actual human beings just like them that love America, but I do. It's an incontrovertible fact. I do not believe that you can only love America if you believe the conservative theology. I do not believe that my love for America is dependent on whether or not I get my way or get my particular politician-god in office. You would not stop loving a parent or a child just because they did something wrong or destructive. 

Love is unconditional. I've had many opportunities to leave America. I've lived in Europe, the Middle East, and Australia/New Zealand. Each time, the friends I lived with offered to let me stay. I chose not to. I love traveling to other countries and staying for a time, but there comes a time in those trips where my heart starts to yearn to be back in America. 

My wife is a libertarian. She has given up on America. She doesn't think there's any hope left for her. I convinced her to stay. We were born here. We'll die here. For better or for worse, America is my homeland. I will defend her honour and her soul against any who try to take them. I don't care if it's another country or a politician I like. The moment I see someone trying to harm America, they become an enemy. 

I just wish more people loved America so.

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DDave (01-13-2013),OceanloverOH (01-13-2013),Polly Kong (01-13-2013)

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## Trinnity

I don't see you calling yourself a progressive...

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## Calypso Jones

Do you hate what Obama is doing?

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## Guest

He has said over and over and over again that he does not like Obama.  No one ever listens.  He might as well stop saying it because it is grossly ignored when he does.  He is a liberal not a statist.  He believes in small town communitarian values, not large-scale statism.

When he and I first met we argued on PF for pages and then he writes me a PM and apologizes, saying he went back and reread my posts and thought we had a lot in common.  My job has taught me to remain friendly with adversaries so he and I started talking and he was right, we do.  Neither of us believes in a large, all powerful state that uses force to make people cooperate.

There is common ground between individuals.  There always was and, in reality, still is.  It's just this partisan politicking with media exacerbation has made us think our neighbors are "The Enemy".  This enables the guys in power to continue doing what they're doing.

Your Democrat neighbor is just as fooled by the Democrats as many of you are fooled by the Republicans.  These people are anti-human.  They sold fear, coupled with some reward, sold hate and divisiveness until we're broken.  We are a house divided against itself.  We won't stand.

Make no mistake.  It is Satanic in nature.  There is a difference between righteous anger and hateful vengeance and I've yet to see many people on any of these forums or television walk that line without falling over into satanic, anti-Christ behavior.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

I don't read most of his stuff.    If he loves this country and obama is okay then he doesn't love this country.

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## Guest

> I don't read most of his stuff.    If he loves this country and obama is okay then he doesn't love this country.


Then you didn't read his stuff, Calypso.  Whenever he is asked and when he's not asked he says he does not like Obama.  I don't know how the words "dislike" or "hate" in reference to Obama can translate to "think he's okay".  

I really, really don't.  Maybe he should just not talk anymore if he's going to be misinterpreted.

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## Calypso Jones

well.  I just remember his early stuff.  Didn't realze he had a change.

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## birddog

Anyone who supports or voted for Obama needs their gluteus kicked!  They failed The Stupid Test!

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## usfan

Nice sentiments, trat.  I think it is fine to have some loyalty & identity with our locale.  Common culture, language, heritage, etc all contribute to that camaraderie.  But when i say 'i love america', it is deeper.  It is ideological.  It is historical.  Sure, i love the grand canyon, yellowstone, the rockies, the land.  And i love & admire the american people.  But if you take away the basic ideology.. the idea of america.. freedom, liberty, limited govt.. you lose the best part.  THAT, imo, is what we are in danger of losing.  The people will adapt, even with a statist system or nanny state.  We willl survive, even if we become a socialist country.

But i don't want to see the leftist agenda succeed.   I don't want us to become another euro nanny state.  I see that as a negative & a step backward in our history.  America is unique.. we are a nation 'conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.'  We are historically centered on the individual, not the state.  I would like my children & grandchildren to live in this idealogy.  But i fear it is too late.  There are too many now who want a state centered ideology.  They want govt, not freedom.  Guarantees, not responsibility.  Security, not opportunity.  The illusion of the left's carrot is strong, & i don't know if historical america will survive.  We are already morphing into the 'new' america.

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Canadianeye (01-13-2013),OceanloverOH (01-13-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

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## Guest

> well.  I just remember his early stuff.  Didn't realze he had a change.


He's never said he likes Obama.  Ever.  What he says is that, and I 100% support this, is that people need to dislike Obama for the right reasons and not hate him for things they accept from Republicans and other people.  This is not a concept of high philosophy.  It is plain and simple wanting people to not dance around to the tune of hypocrisy.

If Obama took a shit people would point at it and act like he's the first man to ever poop and that pooping is evil.

Call him out for what he's DONE--and there is a lot to call him out for--and your argument will have weight with the independents and middle of the road people.  When you rush out into hysteria and have to jump on everything he's done regardless of who has done it in the past then you lose all those people who could come to your philosophical aid in the future.

You have no idea how many people I met who said they ONLY voted for Obama because they don't like Republicans.  When you ask them why...it's that you guys seem mean.

Now, you can stay seeming mean and never get anyone in the middle to cross over, thus drowning the nation in out of control statism

OR

be strategic and say the same things but using language that isn't scary.  I dislike Obama probably more than anyone on here because I see from inside the courtroom the fruits of what Holder's done, but I'm not going to use the same language because I know from my job that how you present yourself to people has just as much influence as what you're saying.

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kilgram (01-13-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

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## Guest

> Anyone who supports or voted for Obama needs their gluteus kicked!  They failed The Stupid Test!


He has said multiple times he didn't vote for Obama.  So...what does your comment in his post about loving his country have ANY relevance?  Do you jump into threads of Romney voters to say the same?

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## Calypso Jones

> He has said multiple times he didn't vote for Obama. So...what does your comment in his post about loving his country have ANY relevance? Do you jump into threads of Romney voters to say the same?


no.  and neither would i jump into a topic about palin.   ONLY for democrats.  because that is what history has shown.

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## Guest

> no.  and neither would i jump into a topic about palin.   ONLY for democrats.  because that is what history has shown.


I don't know what you mean by this.  My point to birddog is that the kid is not saying that he likes Obama and he completely ignored it to say that his voting for Obama makes him stupid.

You voted for Romney, I'm sure.  What if I jumped into one of your threads to say: Well, you were stupid for voting for Obama...?

You'd be like, wtf???

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## birddog

> He has said multiple times he didn't vote for Obama.  So...what does your comment in his post about loving his country have ANY relevance?  Do you jump into threads of Romney voters to say the same?


Read much?  I was making a general comment as follow-up. I wasn't specifically talking about the OP.  However, if the shoe fits-----------

I also said "supports" or voted for.  Get with it.  Geeez!

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## Guest

> Read much?  I was making a general comment as follow-up. I wasn't specifically talking about the OP.  However, if the shoe fits-----------


I do read much.  I read his entire OP so naturally I would be flummoxed that you seemed to believe that he voted for Obama, else why throw it in this thread?

Other than Polly and liberal hack...everyone on here hates Obama.  There are days that I have to actually pray not to hate him so much.  That's how much I hate him.

I don't mean to be all aggro, but TRAT's my friend and we've had this conversation multiple times on the phone.  I know he's not an Obama fan.  I know this, and no one listens to him.  It's frustrating to him because he wants to build up America again and do things that are good for the country, and everyone treats him like he's some big government statist.

Do you know he's a Rand Paul fan?  He's with us to get Rand Paul on the 2016 ballot.

How Obama loving is that?

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## Calypso Jones

I asked the question. I did not say he DID. CAN"T I GET AN ANSWER?? or not? Why do YOUAutomtically assume that i automatically assume he did when ALL i did was to ASK the question. It's in his court.

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## Guest

> I asked the question. I did not say he DID. CAN"T I GET AN ANSWER?? or not? Why do YOUAutomtically assume that i automatically assume he did when ALL i did was to ASK the question. It's in his court.


He's been asked on here multiple times before.  And he's said that he does not multiple times.  I get this PM from him (yes, I'm ratting) saying how he's sad because people keep misunderstanding him.

Do you know how he argued for me to come here and to bring people over because of his high regard and respect for Trinnity and what she's trying to do?  He's a good kid.  He has a big heart and wants to help others.  He's a "liberal" that defends the South and Southerners from other liberals.  He's a liberal that defends the Paul family and libertarians.  He's a liberal that likes John Huntsman and thinks Virginia is the most awesome state in the world.

Basically, Calypso, he wants to be your friend.  He wants to make friends on here and no one is letting him.

So, yeh, I'm "mamma bear", ask SaintMike.  I know his heart, I know it's in the right place, and people should give him a chance.

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## Calypso Jones

bless his heart.  tell him to re-read what he writes.   Sometimes people are just not sure when it seems that pertinent information is left out.  IF he did not support obama then i am okay with the guy.     We will be allies.    I am just careful when it seems that important NEED TO KNOW INFORMATION is omitted.     I'll read his posts more carefully from now on.     You're a defense attorney, you're supposed to be sneaky and sly.   Don't be a soft hearted pushover.  LoL.

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## Guest

> bless his heart.  tell him to re-read what he writes.   Sometimes people are just not sure when it seems that pertinent information is left out.  IF he did not support obama then i am okay with the guy.     We will be allies.    I am just careful when it seems that important NEED TO KNOW INFORMATION is omitted.     I'll read his posts more carefully from now on.     You're a defense attorney, you're supposed to be sneaky and sly.   Don't be a soft hearted pushover.  LoL.



Hahahah, that's what Ethereal tells me every day.  

I have a...high profile client, shall we say...who is 100% fucking nuts.  After the last crazy client cracked my ribs and bruised my cheek, Ethereal's all over my ass telling me: "...don't turn your back on this one", "...don't get emotionally involved", "...don't let them take the cuffs off."

He might as well tell me to quit being "me".  I've always been more heart than head.  I'll rush in where angels fear to tread for someone I love.  It may be the end of me someday.

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## Calypso Jones

> Hahahah, that's what Ethereal tells me every day. 
> 
> I have a...high profile client, shall we say...who is 100% fucking nuts. After the last crazy client cracked my ribs and bruised my cheek, Ethereal's all over my ass telling me: "...don't turn your back on this one", "...don't get emotionally involved", "...don't let them take the cuffs off."
> 
> He might as well tell me to quit being "me". I've always been more heart than head. I'll rush in where angels fear to tread for someone I love. It may be the end of me someday.


Hey.  Girl....there is no  benefit in jeopardizing your own safety and LIFE.    Be as gentle as a lamb if you want but PLEASE be as wise as a serpent.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

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## Guest

> Hey.  Girl....there is no  benefit in jeopardizing your own safety and LIFE.    Be as gentle as a lamb if you want but PLEASE be as wise as a serpent.


Well, I also had a bit of a death wish after 2008 so I wasn't as careful always as I could have been.  Things are starting to change in my life so I'll try to watch after myself a little bit better.

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## Irascible Crusader

> bless his heart. tell him to re-read what he writes. Sometimes people are just not sure when it seems that pertinent information is left out. IF he did not support obama then i am okay with the guy. We will be allies. I am just careful when it seems that important NEED TO KNOW INFORMATION is omitted. I'll read his posts more carefully from now on. You're a defense attorney, you're supposed to be sneaky and sly. Don't be a soft hearted pushover. LoL.


I just find it hilarious that he has to start a thread to insist that he really does love America just like he had to start a thread to deny being a supporter of Obama.  Apparently he's sending contradictory messages.  Of course I think it's all a bunch of hooey, especially the claim to love America.  He gets really heavy into the Blame America First rhetoric and then he wonders why people assume he hates this country.  And all throughout the election, he couldn't say one critical thing about Obama without immediately bashing Romney, but it never worked in the reverse. He could criticize Romney without mentioning Obama.  Then he wonders why people assume he's an Obama supporter.

What I think, TRAT, is that you're being dishonest with yourself.  You're sending mixed messages, the content of which betrays your true passions.  Like all Branch Paulinians, you bash this country from sunrise to sunset; all government is bad, all political parties are evil, everything we do is wrong.  It would be like me talking about my wife saying she looks bad, smells bad, I don't like to be around her, she's rude, arrogant, and condescending, etc (none of which is true) and then wonder why people doubt me when I insist, "but I still love her."   You scream and scream about how nobody is listening to you, but the problem is, I AM LISTENING to you and so are others here.  You aren't going to dislodge my impression that you support Obama and hate America because that's the corollary effect of all your posts.  You're like Zosiasmom who says she can't bring herself to pledge allegience to her nation's flag even though America is deserving of the allegience of all her citizens.   

We conservatives never have to set the record straight that we love our country.  We support and defend her, fight for her, bleed and die for her. We teach our children to be patriotic, rejoice in the freedoms we have routinely, celebrate the 4th of July, Veterans Day, and Memorial Day with passion and we honor our veterans.  Our view of history is accurate, not turning a blind eye to America's mistakes, but not mud raking either like Leftists and Branch Paulinians.  Nobody questions our fidelity and affection for America because we send a strong and consistant message to that effect with everything we do.

You DON'T love America like I do. That is one thing I can be sure of.

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## Guest

> You DON'T love America like I do. That is one thing I can be sure of.


**seagull swoops down and shits, swoops away...**

I don't see any great love for "America" out of you, either, though.  You show love for the Republican party, but America on the whole...no.  So, either you should prove you love ALL of America or accept that a thread based format doesn't allow people who follow by thread guidelines to always show the entirety of what they believe.

People post in reaction to another post.  This can leave a different impression than creating a post to represent your views.

Good morning, btw.  Check out the Citidel thread, please.  It's in your woods and I want a view from someone who lives there.

If you don't mind.

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## Irascible Crusader

> **seagull swoops down and shits, swoops away...**
> 
> I don't see any great love for "America" out of you, either, though.  You show love for the Republican party, but America on the whole...no.  So, either you should prove you love ALL of America or accept that a thread based format doesn't allow people who follow by thread guidelines to always show the entirety of what they believe.
> 
> People post in reaction to another post.  This can leave a different impression than creating a post to represent your views.
> 
> Good morning, btw.  Check out the Citidel thread, please.  It's in your woods and I want a view from someone who lives there.
> 
> If you don't mind.


You're claim that I love America is just being snide and retaliatory. I see right through it. As I said, conservatives never have to clarify that we love our country.  You do, but not us.  It seems TRAT started this thread but you're the only one responding to it, like a faithful mutt yapping at anyone who disagrees.  I told you that you're Mother Bear with a strong sense of protection, but that can be taken too far sometimes.

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## Guest

> You're claim that I love America is just being snide and retaliatory. I see right through it. As I said, conservatives never have to clarify that we love our country.  You do, but not us.  It seems TRAT started this thread but you're the only one responding to it, like a faithful mutt yapping at anyone who disagrees.  I told you that you're Mother Bear with a strong sense of protection, but that can be taken too far sometimes.


No, it is not.  I'm pointing out to you as you often point out to me that what we write and what we think are not always congruent.  When you hate on half the country it seems like you only love one half.  

You, too, can present yourself better.  As can I.  I too often write reactionary posts instead of the entirety of my thoughts.  Mostly because I am already wordy.

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## Canadianeye

Not an American, but gonna throw out something.

Age.

Some people are able to forgive, others not. Regarding this subject, part of that might be age. I cannot forgive given I have  watched the theft of my freedoms and son and daughter freedoms. Piece by piece, decade by decade. I trust nothing that has the scent of modern liberalism. I know its stink all too well.

Maybe those younger need to refine their senses, or, maybe I have to dull mine for potential gain. Maybe both.

I grew up admiring America, and it hurts and is a shame watching her go down to the same disease that took my country.

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usfan (01-13-2013)

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## OceanloverOH

I responded to TRAT's original post in this thread....privately.  I figured this thread would turn into a 3-ring circus, so I wasn't going to weigh in.  But I believe some of you are being _tres_ unfair to this young man.  As Rina said, (and I went back and confirmed), he has stated several times, publicly, that he does NOT love Obama.  Maybe earlier on, he thought Obama was "just OK"....and has now lived 4 years of our current prez and his feelings are changing.  If that's the case, so what?  We all change our minds about many topics as different things affect us day in and day out.  The fact is, the man posted of his love for America and got attacked for it, and that's just not right.  Come on, people.  He was posting how he was feeling.......and no matter what, I believe he IS a patriot.

*stepping off soap box*

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I just find it hilarious that he has to start a thread to insist that he really does love America just like he had to start a thread to deny being a supporter of Obama.  Apparently he's sending contradictory messages.  Of course I think it's all a bunch of hooey, especially the claim to love America.  He gets really heavy into the Blame America First rhetoric and then he wonders why people assume he hates this country.  And all throughout the election, he couldn't say one critical thing about Obama without immediately bashing Romney, but it never worked in the reverse. He could criticize Romney without mentioning Obama.  Then he wonders why people assume he's an Obama supporter.
> 
> What I think, TRAT, is that you're being dishonest with yourself.  You're sending mixed messages, the content of which betrays your true passions.  Like all Branch Paulinians, you bash this country from sunrise to sunset; all government is bad, all political parties are evil, everything we do is wrong.  It would be like me talking about my wife saying she looks bad, smells bad, I don't like to be around her, she's rude, arrogant, and condescending, etc (none of which is true) and then wonder why people doubt me when I insist, "but I still love her."   You scream and scream about how nobody is listening to you, but the problem is, I AM LISTENING to you and so are others here.  You aren't going to dislodge my impression that you support Obama and hate America because that's the corollary effect of all your posts.  You're like Zosiasmom who says she can't bring herself to pledge allegience to her nation's flag even though America is deserving of the allegience of all her citizens.   
> 
> We conservatives never have to set the record straight that we love our country.  We support and defend her, fight for her, bleed and die for her. We teach our children to be patriotic, rejoice in the freedoms we have routinely, celebrate the 4th of July, Veterans Day, and Memorial Day with passion and we honor our veterans.  Our view of history is accurate, not turning a blind eye to America's mistakes, but not mud raking either like Leftists and Branch Paulinians.  Nobody questions our fidelity and affection for America because we send a strong and consistant message to that effect with everything we do.
> 
> You DON'T love America like I do. That is one thing I can be sure of.


When I criticized Romney, I was speaking to conservatives who already did not like Obama. When I criticized Obama, I was speaking to both conservatives and liberals. Hence, bringing up Romney. There were many times I criticized Romney while criticizing Obama, and many times I criticized Obama by himself.

But, you see what you want to see.

What you don't get about my "blame America first" rhetoric is that I'm blaming our _government_, not _America_.

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OceanloverOH (01-13-2013)

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## Guest

Hating politicians is often mistaken for hating the country and that mistake can be costly because it allows "Washington" to be the definition of "America".  This is not true.  All of us are "America".  You can love the land, the people, your neighbors, the Constitution, and still think that everyone is Washington is a corrupt piece of shit.

America used to be a voluntary contract between those who consent to be governed and those who govern.  Now our consent is removed and it is non-voluntary.  This has a lot to do with why I won't say the pledge but will sing the National Anthem, stand at attention, and would kiss the Constitution and Declaration if I could.  It is a voluntary action on my part.

I feel that those words "...by the *consent* of the governed" are the most powerful.  We forget that.  When we stop consenting the contract should be null and void.  Washington needs a reminder of this.

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OceanloverOH (01-13-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

> When I criticized Romney, I was speaking to conservatives who already did not like Obama. When I criticized Obama, I was speaking to both conservatives and liberals. Hence, bringing up Romney. There were many times I criticized Romney while criticizing Obama, and many times I criticized Obama by himself.
> 
> But, you see what you want to see.
> 
> What you don't get about my "blame America first" rhetoric is that I'm blaming our _government_, not _America_.



hmmmm.   Why don't you give me a link where you have said in the past on this board that you do not support Obama.  That would solve everything wouldn't it?    I don't like how you weasel your way around your remarks.   prove me wrong.  I'll welcome it.

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## Guest

> hmmmm.   Why don't you give me a link where you have said in the past on this board that you do not support Obama.  That would solve everything wouldn't it?    I don't like how you weasel your way around your remarks.   prove me wrong.  I'll welcome it.


How is he weaseling?  He is saying that he's proving a MUCH NEEDED counter-balance to threads where people go full bore.  That's not a weasel.  That's an accurate statement of what he does.

The fact is he could say that Obama is a full on piece of shit and people will still not believe him unless he also thinks that the Republicans are the reincarnation of the 12 Apostles and Reagan the second coming of Jesus.

This two party thing has become religious and scary.

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## Calypso Jones

Rina. you are an attorney for crying out loud.  Let him answer the question.  Directly.    Seriously i'm starting to get really suspicious of this guy.  Can't answer a direct question.  You know as well as i there is somthing wrong there.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> hmmmm.   Why don't you give me a link where you have said in the past on this board that you do not support Obama.  That would solve everything wouldn't it?    I don't like how you weasel your way around your remarks.   prove me wrong.  I'll welcome it.


Actually, I think I'll pass. I've done it enough. You're a moderator here, it should be easy to find the information you're looking for. I'm done being a gopher.

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## Guest

> Rina. you are an attorney for crying out loud.  Let him answer the question.  Directly.    Seriously i'm starting to get really suspicious of this guy.  Can't answer a direct question.  You know as well as i there is somthing wrong there.


Here he said this:

Obama is a corporatist hack that I abhor 

Abhor means "to hate".

And, btw, the search function only brings up threads.  Searching on his name and Obama produced too many for me to go through them all.


EDIT: Not liking Republicans doesn't mean you automatically like Democrats.  I have a shrine to Ron Paul but I wouldn't piss on Mitt Romney were he on fire and if an asteroid fell on Obama I'd dance like Snoopy the Easter Beagle.

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## The XL

> Anyone who supports or voted for Obama needs their gluteus kicked!  They failed The Stupid Test!


Absolutely.  This also goes for anyone who was duped by the other big government statist, Mittens.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

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## The XL

TRAT is a real liberal who hates Obama.  That's more than can be said for most liberals, and most of the Republican party lined up behind a Obama clone in Romney.  If you're one of the people who voted Romney, you have no right to take any shots at Thinker.

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## Calypso Jones

Let him answer.

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## Guest

> Absolutely.  This also goes for anyone who was duped by the other big government statist, Mittens.


Hey Binks!  That is the frustrating part...watching the country disintegrate into two camps that both support statism.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do they not see their party people's names on the globalist CFR list alongside the Clintons and Soros?  These people are not actually hiding their true agenda of globalism.

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## Guest

> Let him answer.


Why?  You wanted to know where he said BEFORE that he hated Obama.  I showed you.  The conversation should be done.

Your telling him he is "suspicious" and "weaseling" wouldn't draw a voluntary reaction from anyone aside from feeling hurt.

It wasn't nice at all.

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## Guest

> TRAT is a real liberal who hates Obama.  That's more than can be said for most liberals, and most of the Republican party lined up behind a Obama clone in Romney.  If you're one of the people who voted Romney, you have no right to take any shots at Thinker.


Amen!  Romney supports the Council on Foreign Relations.  Enough said.

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## Calypso Jones

you guys are doing a superb job of covering.    Has he paid you a retainer? rina?  LoL

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## Guest

> you guys are doing a superb job of covering.    Has he paid you a retainer? rina?  LoL


Doesn't have to.  When I get sad on Veterans Day...he's there.  When Ethereal and I are on the outs...he's there.  When I'm sick...he's there.  When I need anything at all...he's there.

Life is filled with fair weather friends.  Anyone can be around me when times are good.  Real friends are there when times are bad.

But enough about me...What part of "abhor" is ambiguous?    :Big Grin:

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> you guys are doing a superb job of covering.    Has he paid you a retainer? rina?  LoL


Hell, I can't afford that. I can barely pay my bills.

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## Calypso Jones

and still no answer.....scary...very scary.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> and still no answer.....scary...very scary.


You admitted yourself that you never read my posts. You saw "liberal" in my intro thread and immediately judged me. I've spent enough time "proving" to people that I mean what I say. I'm not going to do it any more. I'm sick and damn tired of it.

You want to read posts that YOU chose to ignore? Go find them yourself. I'm not your damn servant.

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## Guest

> and still no answer.....scary...very scary.


It's only scary in partisan land, hun.  Come out from beneath the Republican umbrella and breathe the free air of independent thought, liberty, and freedom.  

**breathes deep while wearing a Thomas Jefferson tshirt**


Besides, what answer do you need aside from 

"I abhor Obama"  _<=see first link I presented since I'm not doing it again_.

??

I'm wondering if anything less than, "I abhor Obama _and_ think he's a Muslim" will do since "I abhor Obama" doesn't seem to be cutting it as far as abhoring Obama.

Tell me, would you go back through hundreds of posts because someone didn't believe you, called you suspicious, etc.?  What's the point?  What does he get for doing it?  

The second you leap to prove yourself to someone else bitterness will eat up whatever friendly feelings that could have existed anyway.

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## Guest

> You admitted yourself that you never read my posts. You saw "liberal" in my intro thread and immediately judged me. I've spent enough time "proving" to people that I mean what I say. I'm not going to do it any more. I'm sick and damn tired of it.
> 
> You want to read posts that YOU chose to ignore? Go find them yourself. I'm not your damn servant.


Here, I'll ask you kindly...

TRAT, do you like Obama?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Here, I'll ask you kindly...
> 
> TRAT, do you like Obama?


Hell no. I'd eat shit before I was caught dead supporting him.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> hmmmm. Why don't you give me a link where you have said in the past on this board that you do not support Obama. That would solve everything wouldn't it? I don't like how you weasel your way around your remarks. prove me wrong. I'll welcome it.


He's trying to re-write history.  I was with him on PF during the entire election after Romney became the nominee and what I said is true.  He had a bent toward bashing Romney and Republicans in general as well as this country, regardless of how he remembers it.  He wants the credibility of being an equal critic of Republicans and Democrats, but his posts don't bear that out.  As I said before, I think he's deceiving himself as much as anyone else.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> you guys are doing a superb job of covering.    Has he paid you a retainer? rina?  LoL


LOL you noticed that too?   :Laughing7:

----------


## Guest

> LOL you noticed that too?


Got a question...

If some progressive type picked on you...what do you think I would do?

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Actually, I think I'll pass. I've done it enough. You're a moderator here, it should be easy to find the information you're looking for. I'm done being a gopher.


I'll agree with you on this.  Though I am certain of my impression of you based on your posting history, I don't want to sift through a bunch of PF threads to find evidence.  I'd rather have a root canal.

----------


## Guest

> He's trying to re-write history.  I was with him on PF during the entire election after Romney became the nominee and what I said is true.  He had a bent toward bashing Romney and Republicans in general as well as this country, regardless of how he remembers it.  He wants the credibility of being an equal critic of Republicans and Democrats, but his posts don't bear that out.  As I said before, I think he's deceiving himself as much as anyone else.


Because he's a Green Party type.  Should he believe Green Party values and then promote Romney?  Maybe you should be a Republican and say nice things about Jill Stein?

Come on now...

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Got a question...
> 
> If some progressive type picked on you...what do you think I would do?


Jump on the bandwagon and I've seen this repeatedly, agreeing with Leftists in opposition to me. In fact it's more of an ingrained habit than anything else.  Who are you kidding?

----------


## Guest

> Jump on the bandwagon and I've seen this repeatedly, agreeing with Leftists in opposition to me. In fact it's more of an ingrained habit than anything else.  Who are you kidding?


Wow.  You don't know me at all then.  Whether or not you "get" this about me...in a weird, fucked up way...you're part of my "gang".

Oh well....

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> He's trying to re-write history.  I was with him on PF during the entire election after Romney became the nominee and what I said is true.  He had a bent toward bashing Romney and Republicans in general as well as this country, regardless of how he remembers it.  He wants the credibility of being an equal critic of Republicans and Democrats, but his posts don't bear that out.  As I said before, I think he's deceiving himself as much as anyone else.


I criticized Romney more because while Obama is only 90% (in rhetoric) against my beliefs, Romney is 200% opposed to what I believe.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> I criticized Romney more because while Obama is only 90% (in rhetoric) against my beliefs, Romney is 200% opposed to what I believe.


While it's impossible to be 200% against what you believe, I get your point.  You like Obama more than Romney.  Oh wait, that's what we've been saying all along.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Wow.  You don't know me at all then.  Whether or not you "get" this about me...in a weird, fucked up way...you're part of my "gang".
> 
> Oh well....


LOL, when did you get a higher rep than me?  Actually mine just went down, don't know why.

----------


## Calypso Jones

well TRAT you don't have to go sifting..  Just say, "i don't now and never did, support or vote for Obama.'   It's okay.  If you have seen the error of your ways, we can accept that.   Just be honest.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> While it's impossible to be 200% against what you believe, I get your point.  You like Obama more than Romney.  Oh wait, that's what we've been saying all along.


You're twisting what I said.

----------


## Guest

> well TRAT you don't have to go sifting..  Just say, "i don't now and never did, support or vote for Obama.'   It's okay.  If you have seen the error of your ways, we can accept that.   Just be honest.


I hope you're kidding.  I mean, I really hope you're kidding.  

I'd never say the words now were I him.  No one should have to jump through hoops and say exact words to please others.

----------


## Guest

> LOL, when did you get a higher rep than me?  Actually mine just went down, don't know why.


Good.  I hope it goes down to zero now that you said what you said.  I would totally defend you if Polly or Akphidelt or some other progressive were attacking YOU (<=note different than your Republican positions).  I'd never let someone talk shit about you around me.  The fact that you don't get this...


**sniffs**

displeases us.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> well TRAT you don't have to go sifting..  Just say, "i don't now and never did, support or vote for Obama.'   It's okay.  If you have seen the error of your ways, we can accept that.   Just be honest.


I did say that, twice, in this thread. Rina also posted one of my posts where I said that. Stop ignoring the posts that don't say what you want to hear and you'll see it.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> I did say that, twice, in this thread. Rina also posted one of my posts where I said that. Stop ignoring the posts that don't say what you want to hear and you'll see it.



no you didn't.   I looked.   But you have done a lot of evading the question with 'ah've alraddy done thet.'   which of course you have not.   What?  do ya think a lot of worthless words are gonna hide the truth of the matter?

----------


## Guest

> no you didn't.   I looked.   But you have done a lot of evading the question with 'ah've alraddy done thet.'   which of course you have not.   What?  do ya think a lot of worthless words are gonna hide the truth of the matter?


*I abhor Obama.


*

----------


## The XL

Mr. Jones, did you vote for Romney?  Just curious.

----------


## Guest

At this point, it's become badgering and getting old.  Here, I'll call myself a marxist and say I love Obama so everyone can pick on me.

*Yooooo hoooo, I'm a Marxist.  I love Obama I hope he gets to run again for president I hate America wooooowwweeeee. I hate freedom I love crony capitalism.  Woooooooo.


*Okay, now...let's pick on me.  I've said I love Obama and crony capitalism.  I hate you for your freedoms.  I hate the troops.  Blah blah blah.

Let's do it.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> Mr. Jones, did you vote for Romney? Just curious.



I did that.   Not because i loved the guy but i knew he was at least better than obama.  See how easy that is?    There is no disgrace in the truth.

----------


## Canadianeye

> At this point, it's become badgering and getting old.  Here, I'll call myself a marxist and say I love Obama so everyone can pick on me.
> 
> *Yooooo hoooo, I'm a Marxist.  I love Obama I hope he gets to run again for president I hate America wooooowwweeeee. I hate freedom I love crony capitalism.  Woooooooo.
> 
> 
> *Okay, now...let's pick on me.  I've said I love Obama and crony capitalism.  I hate you for your freedoms.  I hate the troops.  Blah blah blah.
> 
> Let's do it.


Heh...and you deliberately didn't say how much you admire Romney.

Charlatan.

----------


## Calypso Jones

> At this point, it's become badgering and getting old. Here, I'll call myself a marxist and say I love Obama so everyone can pick on me.
> 
> *Yooooo hoooo, I'm a Marxist. I love Obama I hope he gets to run again for president I hate America wooooowwweeeee. I hate freedom I love crony capitalism. Woooooooo.
> 
> 
> *Okay, now...let's pick on me. I've said I love Obama and crony capitalism. I hate you for your freedoms. I hate the troops. Blah blah blah.
> 
> Let's do it.


you're right.   the truth will not come out of him at this point because the truth is not in him.

----------


## The XL

> I did that.   Not because i loved the guy but i knew he was at least better than obama.  See how easy that is?    There is no disgrace in the truth.


You voted for a guy who's identical to Obama, no better no worse.  Nice job.

----------


## Guest

> you're right.   the truth will not come out of him at this point because the truth is not in him.


I know he doesn't like Obama because we've had conversations about what a dick Obama is in the past.  It is this partisan bullshit that makes me NOT vote with Republicans.  YOU ignore EVERYTHING they do which is contrary to their platform but because they say WORDs you like...they're vote worthy.

WORDS mean shit.  ACTIONS mean everything.  As governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney forced Catholics to sell the day after pill and the abortion pill.  That's okay because he has (R) in front of his name.

Mitt's religion says they are equal--equal to Jesus Christ.

But that's okay because he had an (R) in front of his name.

Maybe YOU should be proving YOUR position to us.  Why should we believe YOU have small government values?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> no you didn't.   I looked.   But you have done a lot of evading the question with 'ah've alraddy done thet.'   which of course you have not.   What? *do ya think a lot of worthless words are gonna hide the truth of the matter?*


I'm glad you finally admitted to what this is about. I could spend every post in this thread talking about how much I hate Obama, but it wouldn't be enough. You have a preconceived notion that I'm an Obama crony, and you won't believe otherwise.

It's sad that you've worked up so much hate for a group that anyone claiming to be a member gets judged by that hate, and not on their merit as a person.

----------


## The XL

As far as I concerned, Thinker has no blood on his hands, the neocons and progressives do, he didn't vote for either warmongering corporatist.  Anyone going after him who voted for Obama or Romney should fall back.

----------


## usfan

Man, this is a tough place.  Perhaps we should determine if trat is a 'true scotsman'.  

The way i see it, people evolve in their political & philosophical views.  I'm not afraid of infiltrators, nor pretenders.  They will expose themselves soon enough.  True lovers of america (like true scotsmen!) just need to define what they mean, or we can all just smile & applaud the warm fuzzy feelings.

But instead of quibbling about labels, we should try to define the problems more clearly.  It is not dems or pubs that are the problem, but those who favor state centered solutions & deficit spending.  It is not lovers of freedom that bother me, but military expansionism & executive overreach.  Those who want to change america will declare their undying love & devotion, while turning us into a euro style nanny state.  So the emotion & patriotism is not the issue, imo, but what policies & solutions do you propose?

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Man, this is a tough place.  Perhaps we should determine if trat is a 'true scotsman'.  
> 
> The way i see it, people evolve in their political & philosophical views.  I'm not afraid of infiltrators, nor pretenders.  They will expose themselves soon enough.  True lovers of america (like true scotsmen!) just need to define what they mean, or we can all just smile & applaud the warm fuzzy feelings.
> 
> But instead of quibbling about labels, we should try to define the problems more clearly.  It is not dems or pubs that are the problem, but those who favor state centered solutions & deficit spending.  It is not lovers of freedom that bother me, but military expansionism & executive overreach.  Those who want to change america will declare their undying love & devotion, while turning us into a euro style nanny state. *So the emotion & patriotism is not the issue, imo, but what policies & solutions do you propose?*


Ideally, or practically?

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> At this point, it's become badgering and getting old.  Here, I'll call myself a marxist and say I love Obama so everyone can pick on me.
> 
> *Yooooo hoooo, I'm a Marxist.  I love Obama I hope he gets to run again for president I hate America wooooowwweeeee. I hate freedom I love crony capitalism.  Woooooooo.
> 
> 
> *Okay, now...let's pick on me.  I've said I love Obama and crony capitalism.  I hate you for your freedoms.  I hate the troops.  Blah blah blah.
> 
> Let's do it.


Finally being honest?  Now THAT I believe!

----------


## Calypso Jones

> I'm glad you finally admitted to what this is about. I could spend every post in this thread talking about how much I hate Obama, but it wouldn't be enough. You have a preconceived notion that I'm an Obama crony, and you won't believe otherwise.
> 
> It's sad that you've worked up so much hate for a group that anyone claiming to be a member gets judged by that hate, and not on their merit as a person.



whoa. If that isn't a dose of liberalism i don't know what is. Nobody has expressed any hate for you at all. Any reasonable person reading these pages can see that. I asked one eensy teensy direct question and you've spent what? about 9 pages now contorting yourself and your buddies into every conceivable posture imaginable and un-imaginable avoiding having to answer. . Thanks for trying to make this about me. but that is not gonna work.

----------

Irascible Crusader (01-13-2013)

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> whoa. If that isn't a dose of liberalism i don't know what is. Nobody has expressed any hate for you at all. Any reasonable person reading these pages can see that. I asked one eensy teensy direct question and you've spent what? about 9 pages now contorting yourself and your buddies into every conceivable posture imaginable and un-imaginable avoiding having to answer. . Thanks for trying to make this about me. but that is not gonna work.


I said a group, not me personally. You hate liberals. Don't try to weasel out of it. You've made it abundantly clear that you do. 

And again, what you want to see has been said three times. Twice by me, once by Rina. You know that it's been posted, which means you're either an idiot or a liar. I don't think you're an idiot, so I have to go with liar. Here's your chance to prove me wrong. 

Post #56, THIS THREAD - "Obama is 90% against my beliefs"

Post #48, THIS THREAD - Rina: "TRAT, do you like Obama?" Me: "Hell no. I'd eat shit before I was caught dead supporting him."

Post #34, THIS THREAD, Rina posted a link to a post where I said I abhorred (hated) Obama

So there ya go. I did some of your legwork for you. Are you going to be honest, or a liar?

----------


## Guest

> Finally being honest?  Now THAT I believe!


I know you do.  You have no idea who I am and this makes me sad, actually.  For all my fighting with you it was just me having fun.

----------


## The XL

> Finally being honest?  Now THAT I believe!


Said the big government statist.

----------

kilgram (01-13-2013)

----------


## Guest

> whoa. If that isn't a dose of liberalism i don't know what is. Nobody has expressed any hate for you at all. Any reasonable person reading these pages can see that. I asked one eensy teensy direct question and you've spent what? about 9 pages now contorting yourself and your buddies into every conceivable posture imaginable and un-imaginable avoiding having to answer. . Thanks for trying to make this about me. but that is not gonna work.


First of all, I went and researched to find a post in a system that makes post searches difficult.  No wiggling or waffling.  I posted the exact words and a link.

Second, you've been all over him on this thread accusing him of being "weasely" and acting "suspicious".  That's not kind nor is it loving.  Is it hateful?  No, but it sure lays the groundwork for it.

I just don't see why we can't just give our opinions about _ideas_ and lay our opinions about _people_ at the door.  You can just as easily make your argument for conservatism without attacking _individual_ liberals, in fact, your arguments have more weight when you attack their ideas instead of them.

----------

kilgram (01-13-2013)

----------


## birddog

> I do read much.  I read his entire OP so naturally I would be flummoxed that you seemed to believe that he voted for Obama, else why throw it in this thread?
> 
> Other than Polly and liberal hack...everyone on here hates Obama.  There are days that I have to actually pray not to hate him so much.  That's how much I hate him.
> 
> I don't mean to be all aggro, but TRAT's my friend and we've had this conversation multiple times on the phone.  I know he's not an Obama fan.  I know this, and no one listens to him.  It's frustrating to him because he wants to build up America again and do things that are good for the country, and everyone treats him like he's some big government statist.
> 
> Do you know he's a Rand Paul fan?  He's with us to get Rand Paul on the 2016 ballot.
> 
> How Obama loving is that?


You may read well, but I'm not sure of your discernment ability.  I was just addressing the possibilities, not implying one way or the other related to Obama.  Sorry if I confused you, or didn't make myself clear.

I have mixed emotions about many of the leaders in the R party, but Romney or any of them would be far better than the scumbucket we have now.
I could go for Rand Paul as a candidate, but I don't think he's got a snowball's chance for the R nomination in 2016.

----------


## Guest

> I could go for Rand Paul as a candidate, but I don't think he's got a snowball's chance for the R nomination in 2016.


Why?  Maybe because you accept that the RNC doesn't swing small government anymore...perhaps?  Because its become a statist party like the Dems?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You may read well, but I'm not sure of your discernment ability.  I was just addressing the possibilities, not implying one way or the other related to Obama.  Sorry if I confused you, or didn't make myself clear.
> 
> I have mixed emotions about many of the leaders in the R party, but Romney or any of them would be far better than the scumbucket we have now.
> I could go for Rand Paul as a candidate, but I don't think he's got a snowball's chance for the R nomination in 2016.


I think he can. He's swept Tea Party voters into his camp. Several Republicans won their elections because they had his endorsement.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> I know you do.  You have no idea who I am and this makes me sad, actually.  For all my fighting with you it was just me having fun.


I have a very GOOD idea how you are and my jocularity was lost in translation.  :Merror:

----------



----------


## birddog

> Absolutely.  This also goes for anyone who was duped by the other big government statist, Mittens.


Romney was certainly not my first choice, but he would have been a much more sensible, effective president than the commie scumbucket we have now!  I voted for Romney because he was far superior to the alternative, and to imply that Romney is no better than Obama is idiotic to the nth degree!
Voting third party is even sicker, and is simply weaseling out of making a truly informed choice.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Romney was certainly not my first choice, but he would have been a much more sensible, effective president than the commie scumbucket we have now!  I voted for Romney because he was far superior to the alternative, and to imply that Romney is no better than Obama is idiotic to the nth degree!
> Voting third party is even sicker, and is simply weaseling out of making a truly informed choice.


The founders and their contemporaries disagreed with you. They were fans of voting on principle, even if you vote alone. Most of them hated the ideas of political parties. 

I would say the truly informed voter is the person who votes for who they think is the best person for this country, not for the one that is slightly better than the other guy.

----------


## kilgram

> Romney was certainly not my first choice, but he would have been a much more sensible, effective president than the commie scumbucket we have now!  I voted for Romney because he was far superior to the alternative, and to imply that Romney is no better than Obama is idiotic to the nth degree!
> Voting third party is even sicker, and is simply weaseling out of making a truly informed choice.


Romney that guy with such intelligence that defended that the windows should be able to be opened when there was a fire in the plane. LOL.

Sorry, but Romney is a Bush III and Obama II. He follows exactly the same policies, no difference, and plus with more ignorance than Obama, as proves my first phrase.

Voting a third party is the best choice that Americans can do.

----------



----------


## Calypso Jones

> Romney that guy with such intelligence that defended that the windows should be able to be opened when there was a fire in the plane. LOL.
> 
> Sorry, but Romney is a Bush III and Obama II. He follows exactly the same policies, no difference, and plus with more ignorance than Obama, as proves my first phrase.
> 
> Voting a third party is the best choice that Americans can do.


you're from spain...you don't get how our media is so humorless they don't get a joke.

----------


## birddog

> The founders and their contemporaries disagreed with you. They were fans of voting on principle, even if you vote alone. Most of them hated the ideas of political parties. 
> 
> I would say the truly informed voter is the person who votes for who they think is the best person for this country, not for the one that is slightly better than the other guy.


It's a real world out here.  Times have changed. It's a two-party system only for at least the next generation.  A third party candidate can only serve as a spoiler.  IMHO, those are facts like it or not.

----------


## birddog

> Romney that guy with such intelligence that defended that the windows should be able to be opened when there was a fire in the plane. LOL.
> 
> Sorry, but Romney is a Bush III and Obama II. He follows exactly the same policies, no difference, and plus with more ignorance than Obama, as proves my first phrase.
> 
> Voting a third party is the best choice that Americans can do.


You can nitpickingly critizise any candidate, or you can be more mature and look at the overall comparative qualifications.

----------


## Guest

> It's a real world out here.  Times have changed. It's a two-party system only for at least the next generation.  A third party candidate can only serve as a spoiler.  IMHO, those are facts like it or not.


Spoiler of what?  Seriously.  What have the Republicans done lately that did any of the following?

1. Return rights to the states that they helped to take
2. Return rights to the individual
3. Significantly lowered taxes
4. Significantly lowered spending

They aren't helping, is my point.  They just aren't hurting you as bad as the other guy.  It's like Obama kicked you in the nuts hard and then Romney followed it with a blow to your gut and instead of saying you'll take your chances with a guy who could possibly do nothing, you'd rather be hit only not as hard.

----------


## birddog

> You can nitpickingly critizise any candidate, or you can be more mature and look at the overall comparative qualifications. A third party vote only serves as a spoiler.


Woops, I must need a nap.  Hit the wrong button.  lol

----------



----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> It's a real world out here.  Times have changed. It's a two-party system only for at least the next generation.  A third party candidate can only serve as a spoiler.  IMHO, those are facts like it or not.


I live in the real world too. In the real world, good always triumphs  over evil. It triumphs because it is good, and remains so.

----------


## Guest

It's not nitpicking.  The Republicans have been butt buddies with the Dems for years giving us the Patriot Act, the NDAA, Obamacare, now you got Tea Party Republicans arguing for gun control.

Come back from the 80s and look around.  It's not pretty.

----------


## birddog

> Spoiler of what?  Seriously.  What have the Republicans done lately that did any of the following?
> 
> 1. Return rights to the states that they helped to take
> 2. Return rights to the individual
> 3. Significantly lowered taxes
> 4. Significantly lowered spending
> 
> They aren't helping, is my point.  They just aren't hurting you as bad as the other guy.  It's like Obama kicked you in the nuts hard and then Romney followed it with a blow to your gut and instead of saying you'll take your chances with a guy who could possibly do nothing, you'd rather be hit only not as hard.


You make decent points, but small improvements are better than none.

Federal judgeships especially SCOTUS are paramount.  I would rather have a R make those nominations even though their history has not been perfect.  The Second Amendment is a hot button for me.

----------


## Guest

> You make decent points, but small improvements are better than none.
> 
> Federal judgeships especially SCOTUS are paramount.  I would rather have a R make those nominations even though their history has not been perfect.  The Second Amendment is a hot button for me.


Right but what are the "small improvements"?

There are only 4 Republicans (I won't name them) on a national level that have tried to decrease the size of government.  If God were judging this city, that just aint enough good men.  He'd tell them to get the hell outta Washington before he levels it.

----------


## birddog

> It's not nitpicking.  The Republicans have been butt buddies with the Dems for years giving us the Patriot Act, the NDAA, Obamacare, now you got Tea Party Republicans arguing for gun control.
> 
> Come back from the 80s and look around.  It's not pretty.


I prefer the 80s, and would like to return.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> It's not nitpicking.  The Republicans have been butt buddies with the Dems for years giving us the Patriot Act, the NDAA, Obamacare, now you got Tea Party Republicans arguing for gun control.
> 
> Come back from the 80s and look around.  It's not pretty.


Um right....except for the fact that every single Republican, without exception, voted against Obamacare, they helped the Democrats give us Obamacare.  That was a triple flying fail.  Even Brick Heck doesn't buy your crap.

----------


## Guest

> Um right....except for the fact that every single Republican, without exception, voted against Obamacare, they helped the Democrats give us Obamacare.  That was a triple flying fail.  Even Brick Heck doesn't buy your crap.



And yet it was a Republican beloved for his corporations are people stance that solidified it and allows the government to force us to buy shit now.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Um right....except for the fact that every single Republican, without exception, voted against Obamacare, they helped the Democrats give us Obamacare.  That was a triple flying fail.  Even Brick Heck doesn't buy your crap.


I believe she's referencing the fact that it was the Heritage Foundation of Hannity and now DeMint that created Obamacare and Republicans who pushed it from 1993 allll the way up until 2009 (the bipartisan Wyden-Bennet bill). Probably also Romneycare, Obamacare for a state.

----------


## Guest

> I believe she's referencing the fact that it was the Heritage Foundation of Hannity and now DeMint that created Obamacare and Republicans who pushed it from 1993 allll the way up until 2009 (the bipartisan Wyden-Bennet bill). Probably also Romneycare, Obamacare for a state.


Just ignore that, TRAT.  He doesn't believe in the Hegelian Dialectic or that they get drinks together on Fridays or that they work together.

Nawwwww...   :Wink:

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> And yet it was a Republican beloved for his corporations are people stance that solidified it and allows the government to force us to buy shit now.


So even though congressional Republicans opposed Obamacare from the beginning, you're going to find a way to blame them no matter what.  Why should I take you for anything except a hard Left hack?

----------

birddog (01-13-2013)

----------


## Calypso Jones

> I believe she's referencing the fact that it was the Heritage Foundation of Hannity and now DeMint that created Obamacare and Republicans who pushed it from 1993 allll the way up until 2009 (the bipartisan Wyden-Bennet bill). Probably also Romneycare, Obamacare for a state.


perhaps you've a link for that?

----------


## Guest

> So even though congressional Republicans opposed Obamacare from the beginning, you're going to find a way to blame them no matter what.  Why should I take you for anything except a hard Left hack?


Because they are enablers.  They are the wife that would rather see the kids live in fear and poverty rather than do something about the husband.

Anyone who wants small government and individual freedoms cannot support statists.  Fact.  You are big government.  You admitted that.

We just want different things.  You want government controlling every aspect of our lives.  I do not.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (01-13-2013)

----------


## Guest

> perhaps you've a link for that?


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...144786448.html

----------


## birddog

> Because they are enablers.  They are the wife that would rather see the kids live in fear and poverty rather than do something about the husband.
> 
> Anyone who wants small government and individual freedoms cannot support statists.  Fact.  You are big government.  You admitted that.
> 
> We just want different things.  You want government controlling every aspect of our lives.  I do not.


You seem to be fairly good a twisting intent to suit your biases.  Gee, you must be a dimocrat!  We republicans are much less guilty of that. :Smiley20:

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Because they are enablers.  They are the wife that would rather see the kids live in fear and poverty rather than do something about the husband.
> 
> Anyone who wants small government and individual freedoms cannot support statists.  Fact.  You are big government.  You admitted that.
> 
> We just want different things.  You want government controlling every aspect of our lives.  I do not.


How is unbroken opposition to Obamacare enabling Obamacare, Left-wing hack?

----------


## Guest

> You seem to be fairly good a twisting intent to suit your biases.  Gee, you must be a dimocrat!  We republicans are much less guilty of that.


That actually doesn't work on me.  I can't be taunted into shutting up or not telling the truth.  Their record in Washington is public.  You can't make the argument they didn't give us big government in a bipartisan effort.

Sorry.

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## Guest

> How is unbroken opposition to Obamacare enabling Obamacare, Left-wing hack?


By writing and promoting that through conservative think tanks behind the scenes and peddling it in Massachusetts as a test run, Statist.

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## Guest

This came up at Tuesday’s Western Republican Leadership Conference Debate, where Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich tussled on the question:
  ROMNEY: Actually, Newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you.
   GINGRICH: That’s not true. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.
   ROMNEY: Yes, we got it from you, and you got it from the Heritage Foundation and from you.
   GINGRICH: Wait a second. What you just said is not true. You did not get that from me. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.
   ROMNEY: And you never supported them?
   GINGRICH: I agree with them, but I’m just saying, what you said to this audience just now plain wasn’t true.
   (CROSSTALK)
   ROMNEY: OK. Let me ask, have you supported in the past an individual mandate?
   GINGRICH: I absolutely did with the Heritage Foundation against Hillarycare.
   ROMNEY: You did support an individual mandate?
   ROMNEY: Oh, OK. That’s what I’m saying. We got the idea from you and the Heritage Foundation.
   GINGRICH: OK. A little broader.
   ROMNEY: OK.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...idual-mandate/

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## birddog

> That actually doesn't work on me.  I can't be taunted into shutting up or not telling the truth.  Their record in Washington is public.  You can't make the argument they didn't give us big government in a bipartisan effort.
> 
> Sorry.


I was kinda kidding, but it is refreshing for me to meet someone like you who is 'as pure as the wind-driven snow!" lol

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## Guest

> I was kinda kidding, but it is refreshing for me to meet someone like you who is 'as pure as the wind-driven snow!" lol


Ya know, I just want people to get off their knees and quit trusting these fools.  We have 55 more criminal laws passed each year, more regulations, and it is a two party effort.

We're so so so far away from Jeffersonian ideals that it is like a different nation entirely.

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## birddog

> Ya know, I just want people to get off their knees and quit trusting these fools.  We have 55 more criminal laws passed each year, more regulations, and it is a two party effort.
> 
> We're so so so far away from Jeffersonian ideals that it is like a different nation entirely.


I understand and agree.  Trust is fine, but it should always be verified.

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## Calypso Jones

> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...144786448.html


that is a rather strange article but i don't think it proves what you think it does.

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## Guest

> that is a rather strange article but i don't think it proves what you think it does.


How about this one:

_Heritage did put forward the idea of an individual mandate_,  though it predated HillaryCare by several years. We know this because we  were there: In 1988-90, we were employed at Heritage as a public  relations associate (a junior writer and editor), and we wrote at least  one press release for a publication touting Heritage’s plan for  comprehensive legislation to provide universal “quality, affordable  health care.”


   EDITED TO KEEP TO FAIR USE


   The plan was introduced in a 1989 book, “A National Health  System for America” by Stuart Butler and Edmund Haislmaier. We seem to  have mislaid our copy, and we couldn’t find it online, but we did track  down a 1990 Backgrounder and a 1991 lecture  by Butler that outline the plan. One of its two major planks, the  equalization of tax treatment for individually purchased and  employer-provided health insurance, seemed sensible and unobjectionable,  at least in principle.


Stuart Butler’s lecture describes what the Heritage’s mandate would look like:  We would include a mandate in our proposal–not a mandate on  employers, but a mandate on heads of households–to obtain at least a  basic package of health insurance for themselves and their families.  That would have to include, by federal law, a catastrophic provision in  the form of a stop loss for a family’s total health outlays. It would  have to include all members of the family, and it might also include  certain very specific services, such as preventive care, well baby  visits, and other items.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...idual-mandate/

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## Irascible Crusader

> By writing and promoting that through conservative think tanks behind the scenes and peddling it in Massachusetts as a test run, Statist.


What Congressional Republicans control conservative think tanks?  You're just running from the obvious.  The Republicans represented their core constituancies, not any think tank, when they opposed Obamacare TO A PERSON.  You're just bound and determined to hang this around their necks no matter what because of your hard Left bent.

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## Guest

> What Congressional Republicans control conservative think tanks?  You're just running from the obvious.  The Republicans represented their core constituancies, not any think tank, when they opposed Obamacare TO A PERSON.  You're just bound and determined to hang this around their necks no matter what because of your hard Left bent.


I did a whole thread on this and named names.  Look it up.  

btw, when I used to say to my mother that Keisha's mom let her do ________________.  She's say this isn't about what Keisha's mom let's her do.

I could give two shits what Dems do because I don't lean left.  I see that they are "anti-liberty" and therefore wrote them off entirely.  It was the Republicans who fooled me and therefore who I am the hardest on.  So I say to you, I don't care what leftists do, I care what conservatives do.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I did a whole thread on this and named names.  Look it up.


You mean you can't think of any, right?

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## Guest

> You mean you can't think of any, right?


I said that I did an entire thread on it.  Hint Hint...look it up and read.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You mean you can't think of any, right?


Off the top of my head:

Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA)
Former Governor Mitt Romney (R-MA)

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## Guest

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
> Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
> Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA)
> Former Governor Mitt Romney (R-MA)


He means groups like ALEC.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
> Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
> Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA)
> Former Governor Mitt Romney (R-MA)


And I'm sure you have links to prove that?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> He means groups like ALEC.


Oh. That would be your department.

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## Guest

> Oh. That would be your department.


I wrote a whole thread on it HERE.  He can let his fingers do the walking.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I wrote a whole thread on it HERE.  He can let his fingers do the walking.


  What I see is two individuals who can't back up their outlandish claim that the Republicans are to blame for Obamacare, despite every last one of them voting against it, because they secretly support conservative think tanks that spawned the proposal.

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## Guest

> What I see is two individuals who can't back up their outlandish claim that the Republicans are to blame for Obamacare, despite every last one of them voting against it, because they secretly support conservative think tanks that spawned the proposal.


What I see is you being lazy.  I'm not falling for it.  Go forth and read, Sir.

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## Irascible Crusader

> What I see is you being lazy. I'm not falling for it. Go forth and read, Sir.


I'm not going to do your research for you.  The outlandish claim is yours as well as the responsibility to back it up.  I've already concluded that you can't and, as I told somebody earlier, I can't prove a negative.

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## Guest

> I'm not going to do your research for you.  The outlandish claim is yours as well as the responsibility to back it up.  I've already concluded that you can't and, as I told somebody earlier, I can't prove a negative.


This is like the Marx brothers, I already said I made an entire thread about this on thepoliticsforum.  Webrockk even came over to read and comment.  Look up ALEC on here.

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## Irascible Crusader

> This is like the Marx brothers, I already said I made an entire thread about this on thepoliticsforum.  Webrockk even came over to read and comment.  Look up ALEC on here.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> What I see is two individuals who can't back up their outlandish claim that the Republicans are to blame for Obamacare, despite every last one of them voting against it, because they secretly support conservative think tanks that spawned the proposal.


Oh, I can back it up easily. I just don't care to.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Oh, I can back it up easily. I just don't care to.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

On this subject, perhaps, but not forever. I'm like the delicious, tasty fudge that you know you shouldn't be eating, but you do anyway  :Wink:

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## Calypso Jones

well...maybe it only looks like fudge....

oops....did i say that outloud?

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## birddog

> On this subject, perhaps, but not forever. I'm like the delicious, tasty fudge that you know you shouldn't be eating, but you do anyway


Does that mean you are a "chronic brownnoser?"  lol

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Does that mean you are a "chronic brownnoser?"  lol


The only person I "brown-nose" is my wife, and that only because I wish to live  :Big Grin:

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## usfan

..speaking of true lovers of america, i just came upon this, & it warmed my heart to see how these poor asians found success & prosperity in america, & now speak freely about the evils & injustices of the american system.. especially compared to the beacons of freedom in china & korea..   :Sad20:

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birddog (01-13-2013),Calypso Jones (01-13-2013)

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## Irascible Crusader

> well...maybe it only looks like fudge....
> 
> oops....did i say that outloud?


Stay away from TRAT's fudge and brownies, it's bound to have some, um....cannabis baked in.

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## OceanloverOH

> well...maybe it only looks like fudge....
> 
> Oops....did i say that outloud?


hahahahahahahahah i love you, cj!

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## Irascible Crusader

> The only person I "brown-nose" is my wife, and that only because I wish to live


My nose is brown whether I brown nose or not.  It's almost unfair.

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## Guest

> My nose is brown whether I brown nose or not.  It's almost unfair.


I thought it was reddish.   :Big Grin:

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## Irascible Crusader

> I thought it was reddish.


Some tribes are more reddish, but Blackfoot are pretty dern brown.  Give me a sombrero and a haircut and I'll pass myself off as a Mexican

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## birddog

> ..speaking of true lovers of america, i just came upon this, & it warmed my heart to see how these poor asians found success & prosperity in america, & now speak freely about the evils & injustices of the american system.. especially compared to the beacons of freedom in china & korea.



I never cared much for Chan's movies either.  Stupid like him!

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## Calypso Jones

well.  There's a silver lining.  He just shot himself in the foot.

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## usfan

> I never cared much for Chan's movies either.  Stupid like him!


I used to like them.. pretty wholesome, decent for the kids.. fun & cutesy.  But this kind of kills it for me.  Kind of a dumb move, jackie.. biting the hand that feeds you.  I suppose his career is pretty much over, for his style, but this might just be the final nail in the coffin.

Now, Psy.. i don't know if he'll ever get anything, except from liberal celebrities trying to be hip.  Probably the dumb gangsa music still appeals to the socially illiterate & culturally ignorant.

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## patrickt

"I know it's not convenient for some ignorant people to believe some liberals are actual human beings just like them that love America, but I do. It's an incontrovertible fact."

"President Barack Obama has spoken of how he is a "Christian by choice" who found faith while an adult because "the precepts of Jesus Christ" offered a basis for the life he wanted to lead."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8032991/Barack-Obama-says-he-is-Christian-by-choice-in-rare-comments-on-religion.html

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## usfan

> Some tribes are more reddish, but Blackfoot are pretty dern brown.  Give me a sombrero and a haircut and I'll pass myself off as a Mexican



My wife has the same problem.. here in az, people think she is mexican.. in hawaii, they think she's hawaiian.  Some native americans see her as native. Even east indians claim her.  None of the aforementioned cultures embrace me at all, but she gets all the love.. :Geez:

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## Canadianeye

Surprised by this. Kind of liked Chan, but...bashing the country that has provided the most personal freedoms and prosperity the world has ever seen is popular now, as intended by her enemies within and abroad.

America made you Chan, and now you spit on her. Fuck you, ya little hypocrite. Won't buy or rent anything by you.

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## Guest

Does anyone, anyone at all find it ironic that most of you bitch about the government daily and are now angry at him?


Just wonderin'.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> "I know it's not convenient for some ignorant people to believe some liberals are actual human beings just like them that love America, but I do. It's an incontrovertible fact."
> 
> "President Barack Obama has spoken of how he is a "Christian by choice" who found faith while an adult because "the precepts of Jesus Christ" offered a basis for the life he wanted to lead."
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/8032991/Barack-Obama-says-he-is-Christian-by-choice-in-rare-comments-on-religion.html


I don't see the connection between those quotes.

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