# Stuff and Things > Sights and Sounds >  Secret Societies & Occult Documentaries/Speeches

## Network

They're really not so hidden.  Not really much theory when their symbolism and quotes are all over the place.

Expose their non-secrets, symbolism, crimes, and plans here, or cry "disinfo".

Many roads lead to Rome according to this guy, who seems to have a lot of evidence to backup his claims.



*The Secret Behind Secret Societies /Total Onslaught*

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## Guest



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Fearandloathing (05-05-2013)

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## Network

It's sort of messing with my head how none of the political leaders/commentators ever attempt to expose any of this stuff.

They're all in on it.  Especially Ron Paul.    F!

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## Guest



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Fearandloathing (05-05-2013),Network (05-05-2013)

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## Network

Is that a stink tank or just awesome corporations?  

I still don't understand how the _elites_ can all fall for such a massive trick.  What if they are right?  F!

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## Guest



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## Guest



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## Maximatic

At about 3:38 he's describing this:

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## Guest



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## Guest

*Roseanne Barr: “MK ULTRA Mind Control Rules in Hollywood”*


> Roseanne basically says that Hollywood stars are terrified of using  their status to speak out about important issues because there’s a  “culture of fear” going on there, where “speaking out” almost  automatically equals being shunned from the industry and having one’s  career destroyed.
>  More importantly she adds:
> “It’s also a big culture of Mind Control. MK ULTRA Mind Control rules in Hollywood.”This means that many stars do not speak out because they literally  cannot do so. They are mind controlled which means that they have alter  personas programmed into them that handler are able to trigger and  control at will. (For more information on the subject read the article  entitled Origins and Techniques of Monarch Mind Control).

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## Guest

Precautions must be taken not only to protect  operations from exposure to enemy forces but also to conceal these  activities from the American public in general. The knowledge that the  agency is engaging in unethical and illicit activities would have  serious repurcussions in political and diplomatic circles ...
 —1957 CIA Inspector General Report[125]

n 1954, the CIA's Project QKHILLTOP was created to study Chinese brainwashing  techniques, and to develop effective methods of interrogation. Most of  the early studies are believed to have been performed by the Cornell University Medical School's human ecology study programs, under the direction of Dr. Harold Wolff.[104][118][119]  Wolff requested that the CIA provide him any information they could  find regarding "threats, coercion, imprisonment, deprivation,  humiliation, torture, 'brainwashing', 'black psychiatry', and hypnosis,  or any combination of these, with or without chemical agents". According  to Wolff, the research team would then:  ...assemble, collate, analyze and assimilate this  information and will then undertake experimental investigations designed  to develop new techniques of offensive/defensive intelligence use ...  Potentially useful secret drugs (and various brain damaging  procedures) will be similarly tested in order to ascertain the  fundamental effect upon human brain function and upon the subject's mood  ... Where any of the studies involve potential harm of the subject, we  expect the Agency to make available suitable subjects and a proper place  for the performance of the necessary experiments.
 —Dr. Harold Wolff, Cornell University Medical School[119] _... it was fun, fun, fun. Where else could a red-blooded  American boy lie, kill, cheat, steal, rape and pillage with the sanction  and bidding of the All-highest?_

 George Hunter White, who oversaw drug experiments for the CIA as part of Operation Midnight Climax[120] 
 Another of the MKULTRA subprojects, Operation Midnight Climax,  consisted of a web of CIA-run safehouses in San Francisco, Marin, and  New York which were established in order to study the effects of LSD on  unconsenting individuals. Prostitutes on the CIA payroll were instructed  to lure clients back to the safehouses, where they were surreptitiously  plied with a wide range of substances, including LSD, and monitored  behind one-way glass. Several significant operational techniques were  developed in this theater, including extensive research into sexual  blackmail, surveillance technology, and the possible use of  mind-altering drugs in field operations.[120]

In 1957, with funding from a CIA front organization, Dr. Ewan Cameron of the Allan Memorial Institute in Montreal, Canada began MKULTRA Subproject 68.[121]  His experiments were designed to first "depattern" individuals, erasing  their minds and memories—reducing them to the mental level of an  infant—and then to "rebuild" their personality in a manner of his  choosing.[122]  To achieve this, Cameron placed patients under his "care" into  drug-induced comas for up to 88 days, and applied numerous high voltage  electric shocks to them over the course of weeks or months, often  administering up to 360 shocks per person. He would then perform what he  called "psychic driving" experiments on the subjects, where he would  repetitively play recorded statements, such as "You are a good wife and  mother and people enjoy your company", through speakers he had implanted  into blacked-out football helmets that he bound to the heads of the  test subjects (for sensory deprivation  purposes). The patients could do nothing but listen to these messages,  played for 16–20 hours a day, for weeks at a time. In one case, Cameron  forced a person to listen to a message non-stop for 101 days.[122] Using CIA funding, Cameron converted the horse stables  behind Allen Memorial into an elaborate isolation and sensory  deprivation chamber which he kept patients locked in for weeks at a  time.[122] Cameron also induced insulin comas in his subjects by giving them large injections of insulin, twice a day for up to two months at a time.[104]  Several of the children who Cameron experimented on were sexually  abused, in at least one case by several men. One of the children was  filmed numerous times performing sexual acts with high-ranking federal  government officials, in a scheme set up by Cameron and other MKULTRA  researchers, to blackmail the officials to ensure further funding for  the experiments.[123]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_Stat  es

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## Maximatic

@Rina_Dragonborn, does this represent Fides?

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## Guest

The Tulane Electrical Brain Stimulation Program. Starting in the early 1950s, Dr. Robert Heath of Tulane University performed experiments on various mentally ill patients, most of whom had schizophrenia  . The experiments were funded by the U.S. Army. The program implanted  electrodes deep into the patients brains to electrically stimulate and  take recordings. In addition to the deep brain electrodes, cannulas were  surgically placed to allow injections, a direct chemical stimulation of  the brain. In some of the studies, he dosed the patients with LSD,  mescaline, acetylcholine, and/or norepinephrine. In the early 1970s the  Tulane program began to be criticized when homosexuality was no longer  considered a mental illness.[126][127]



 MKULTRA activities continued until 1973 when CIA director Richard Helms, fearing that they would be exposed to the public, ordered the project terminated, and all of the files destroyed.[116]  However, a clerical error had sent many of the documents to the wrong  office, so when CIA workers were destroying the files, some of them  remained, and were later released under a Freedom of Information Act request by investigative journalist  John Marks. Many people in the American public were outraged when they  learned of the experiments, and several congressional investigations  took place including the Church Committee and the Rockefeller Commission.


 On April 26, 1976, the Church Committee  of the United States Senate issued a report, "Final Report of the  Select Committee to Study Governmental Operation with Respect to  Intelligence Activities",[128] In Book I, Chapter XVII, p 389 this report states:
 LSD was one the materials tested in the MKULTRA program. The final  phase of LSD testing involved surreptitious administration to unwitting  non-volunteer subjects in normal life settings by undercover officers of  the Bureau of Narcotics acting for the CIA. A special procedure, designated MKDELTA, was established to govern the use of MKULTRA  materials abroad. Such materials were used on a number of occasions.  Because MKULTRA records were destroyed, it is impossible to reconstruct  the operational use of MKULTRA materials by the CIA overseas; it has  been determined that the use of these materials abroad began in 1953,  and possibly as early as 1950.[107][129][130][131][132] Drugs were used primarily as an aid to interrogations, but  MKULTRA/MKDELTA materials were also used for harassment, discrediting,  or disabling purposes.[107][129][130][131][132]


 In 1963, CIA had synthesized many of the findings from its psychological research into what became known as the KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation handbook,[133] which cited the MKULTRA studies and other secret research programs as the scientific basis for their interrogation methods.[122]  Cameron regularly traveled around the U.S. teaching military personnel  about his techniques (hooding of prisoners for sensory deprivation,  prolonged isolation, humiliation, etc.), and how they could be used in  interrogations. Latin American paramilitary groups working for the CIA  and U.S. military received training in these psychological techniques at  places like the School of the Americas, and even today, many of the torture techniques developed in the MKULTRA studies and other programs are being used at U.S. military and CIA prisons such as Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.[122][134] 


 Medical professionals gathered and collected data on the CIA’s use of torture  techniques on detainees, in order to refine those techniques, and to  "to provide legal cover for torture, as well as to help justify and  shape future procedures and policies", according to a report by Physicians for Human Rights.  The report stated that: “Research and medical experimentation on  detainees was used to measure the effects of large-volume waterboarding  and adjust the procedure according to the results.” As a result of the  waterboarding experiments, doctors recommended adding saline  to the water “to prevent putting detainees in a coma or killing them  through over-ingestion of large amounts of plain water.” Sleep  deprivation tests were performed on over a dozen prisoners, in 48-, 96-  and 180-hour increments. Doctors also collected data intended to help  them judge the emotional and physical impact of the techniques so as to  “calibrate the level of pain experienced by detainees during  interrogation" and to determine if using certain types of techniques  would increase a subject's "susceptibility to severe pain.". The CIA  denied the allegations, claiming they never performed any experiments,  and saying "The report is just wrong"; however, the U.S. government  never investigated the claims.[135][136][137][138][139][140]
*In August 2010, the U.S. weapons manufacturer Raytheon announced that it had partnered with a jail in Castaic, California in order to use prisoners as test subjects for a new non-lethal weapon system that "fires an invisible heat beam capable of causing unbearable pain."[141]*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethic..._United_States

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## Guest

> @Rina_Dragonborn, does this represent Fides?



IF you believe this stuff in ritual magic, the triangle represents the Holy Trinity.

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## Maximatic

> IF you believe this stuff in ritual magic, the triangle represents the Holy Trinity.


What difference does it make if I believe it?

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## Guest

> What difference does it make if I believe it?


just a caveat.

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## Maximatic

> just a caveat.


You never answer my questions.

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## Guest

> What difference does it make if I believe it?


It makes none, I suppose.  If you are asking what I believe about all of this subtly I think that "they" believe it and that's all that counts.  They believe it enough that strange things happen on ritual days.  They believe in it enough to not even bother hiding it.  They believe in it enough to wear these symbols or place them on their business the way Christians wear a cross.  They believe it enough to dress up once a year on Beltane, on Midsummer and dance around giant effigies.

Why does no one take notice?  _Oh, that's absurd.  What are we in, the Dark Ages?  **_cue snarky laughter**

It pretty much is right there in front of us but because we're past religion, past all that it's just laughable that we notice and then worry about it.  However, everyone participating in these rituals are fabulously wealthy, famous, or powerful.

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## Fearandloathing

Wow...what an expose...

But, if the secret societies secret has been revealed so easily as you have done here...are they really secret?

And symbols, well, yeah. clearly there's a whole secrecy thing going on and even the KKK is in on it.  They used the same uniforms, those pointy headed bed sheet things with eye holes, as a secret sect of Roman Catholic priests in  Spain.  

So that's proof...the KKK was a secret arm of the Roman church only pretending to be against Catholics in order to fool Satan.

They ARE clever...you really have to pay attention.

Did you know that Lordco Autoparts is owned by the Roman Catholic church?  Yep...it's their way of controlling the entire auto industry.

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countryboy (05-05-2013)

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## Guest

> Wow...what an expose...
> 
> But, if the secret societies secret has been revealed so easily as you have done here...are they really secret?


Nope, they hide in plain sight.  I've never said that the Bohemian Grovers were hiding.

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## Guest

...and it's not a "Catholic" thing.  It's a banker thing.

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## Fearandloathing

The KKK are bankers?

Who a thunk?

I thought they were ignorant ed neck racists.

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## Maximatic

> The KKK are bankers?
> 
> Who a thunk?
> 
> I thought they were ignorant ed neck racists.


Didn't you just advocate the banning of trolls?

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## Guest

> The KKK are bankers?


They came from all walks of life, so...sure.  Bankers, lawyers, judges, farmers.  Sure.




> Who a thunk?


Not me, it's not the robes I'm speaking of.  I wear a bathrobe when I exit the shower.  I don't meet with other heads of state once a year and "jokingly" reenact a ritual murder in front of a giant owl, however.  The last time I did something remotely close it was summer camp and I watched some girls play Bloody Mary in the bathroom.  I was 13.




> I thought they were ignorant ed neck racists.


Why are we talking about the KKK?

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## Maximatic

> the triangle represents the Holy Trinity.


There are a couple of problems. The two right hands clasped represent Fides. There seems to be a hierarchy in the Holy Trinity with the Father being supreme, but that triangle is upside down like the Egyptian one which represents Isis, Horus and Set.

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## Guest

During the Reagan administration (ironically when "just say no" came out) the ban on advertising for psychiatric drugs was lifted...I won't speculate if this was talked about while wearing a _brown_ robe and dancing around a stone owl at Bohemian Grove.  I mean, who has time to think about that stuff while chanting, amirite?

Anyway, rise in violence correlates (yes, correlation not causation--I know)

http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/th...hotropic-drug/

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## Guest

> There are a couple of problems. The two right hands clasped represent Fides. There seems to be a hierarchy in the Holy Trinity with the Father being supreme, but that triangle is upside down like the Egyptian one which represents Isis, Horus and Set.


It also represents the divine feminine which is why I didn't want to get into it because the study of Shekhinah should be a thread on its own.  I knew you would keep going though.   :Smile:   I'm better at this stuff over the phone or writing in the morning.  Had a rough, rough night last night, and I feel hung over from the emotions today, so I am not feeling frisky enough to write about Her.

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## Maximatic

Nevermind about the upsidedown triangle. It still seems wrong though.

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## Guest

> Nevermind about the upsidedown triangle. It still seems wrong though.


Pointed up = intellect and masculine
Pointed down = wisdom and feminine

Up is phallic, down is a womb

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## Maximatic

> It also represents the divine feminine which is why I didn't want to get into it because the study of Shekhinah should be a thread on its own.  I knew you would keep going though.    I'm better at this stuff over the phone or writing in the morning.  Had a rough, rough night last night, and I feel hung over from the emotions today, so I am not feeling frisky enough to write about Her.


Yeah, I thought about that too, but I didn't want to get into it because I didn't want to use a bunch of words. You did, did you? What gave you that idea? I usually don't keep going...

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## Guest

> Yeah, I thought about that too, but I didn't want to get into it because I didn't want to use a bunch of words. You did, did you? What gave you that idea? I usually don't keep going...


You do.  You're analytical and precise and I gave an imprecise response.  I expect you to call me on things.  I like that about you.

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## Maximatic

> You do.  You're analytical and precise and I gave an imprecise response.  I expect you to call me on things.  I like that about you.


And you're relentless and untouchable. I like that about you.

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## Guest

> And *you're relentless* and untouchable. I like that about you.


That's what ada's usually say about me.  Maybe I'm a Fury?

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## Maximatic

> That's what ada's usually say about me.  Maybe I'm a Fury?


Okay I'm smiling. Erinyes?

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## Guest

> Okay I'm smiling. Erinyes?


I always liked Alecto.

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## Guest



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## Maximatic

> 


The implacable or unceasing anger, the sister of Vengeance and Jealousy.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow



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## Guest

Friend of Obummer



Obvious Mentor of JayZ

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## KSigMason

I love how he says he wants to leave it up to the viewer, but he's guiding them with his perception. The image tied to the opening quote is his interpretation, nothing more. All of this is his interpretation and posted with his skew. There is no way for someone to get an unbiased view since he's already put his slant on it.

Plus, who cares what this self-righteous douchebag thinks. Within the first 5-minutes he essentially says fidelity and honesty are not good or at least not good to be personified.

He speaks of the Knights Templar having 2 doctrines and yet there exists no records to back that up. How can anybody take him serious when he just fabricates information? He's completely wrong about Kabballah and Gnostic, and their doctrine. Eliphas Levi is not a "high Masonic source." The Jesuits didn't create the Freemasons; there is evidence that dates Freemasonry prior to their formation (ie Regius Poem).

This guy is a simpleton as he believes symbols have a single use, interpretation, and/or meaning, and that anyone who uses similar symbols are connected. This is completely ignorant and shows illogical his mind is. Throughout the entire video he makes erroneous statements like this. He also seems very ignorant as to the history of Catholicism and how it converted pagans into its doctrines. Plus, he seems to make Christianity such a narrow box and takes so much away from it. He, like so many, have de-mystified Christianity, taken away its compassion, and turned it into a puritanical militant organization.

He quotes Nesta Webster who was a fascist and supported people like Hitler.

As to the Templar Inquisition, the charges brought against them were almost identical to the ones Philip had brought against previous Popes and opposition to his tyranny. History has shown the Philip wished only to cancel out his debt with the Templars without paying. I also love that this douchebag denounces the Catholic Church, but then uses them as a source to denounce someone else. Actually it was not by Papal authority that DeMolay died, but rather by the French Crown. The Chinon Parchment shows that the Church was going to pardon the Templars, but disband them.

As to the perpetuation myths, there is no evidence, none...zero...zilch that exists to prove any of it. It's all a romanticized idea. I'm sure some Templars went to Scotland, but I'm also very sure most just absorbed into the communities they were already in. France was really the only country hit hard by this inquisition. The Spanish Knights just changed their name. The German Knights were acquitted. There was no concentrated effort to disappear.

Masonic reference to the Templars is in commemoration only. We claim no actual lineage. The quote he gives though is not Masonic ritual nor do we have a desire to rebuild Solomon's Temple. That symbol is not the same Double Headed Eagle used by the Scottish Rite nor do 2-swords indicate "Masonic compasses."

IHS doesn't equal Isis, Horus, and Set. Regardless, they wouldn't be the "holy trinity" in Egyptian mythology. That would be Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Set was the enemy to those three, not their friend or completion. What a tard. Skipping along as I don't have all night.

Pike did not found the Scottish Rite nor was he the "highest Freemason". This is an inaccurate statement stemming from ignorance and holding no real knowledge on the subject. I don't know why they quote M&D as if its inviolable gospel, it's not.

Why doesn't he cite from the Jesuit oath to show that INRI means to overthrow governments? I also love how he adds his own words into quotes and also quotes anti quotes as if those quotes were from the actual groups. Maybe next he'll quote the KKK to show the evils of the blacks.

The narrator makes the claim that Jean Baptiste Janssens is in charge of several groups, but provides no evidence. He was not ever in charge of any Masonic order nor is any group called "Scottish-Rite Shriner Freemasonry"; he's just throwing terms around hoping someone falls for it and sadly there are tons of poor souls out there doing exactly that.

I'd also like to point that he keeps trying to tie the skull-and-bones symbol to Jupiter, and then he states that Jupiter is the god of death, which is completely wrong.

He continues to quote the hag Nesta Webster and calls her credible. He also quote Blavatsky who even admits herself that she wrote nothing of recognized Freemasonry. he also quotes from a dead rite and also there is no "head mason of the world."

People like him will quote other anti-Masons and bigots. It's circular. Person A will quote Person B who quotes Person C who quotes Person D who quotes Person A...throughout time you just add more and more people to this and it spirals.

Also note that not all of those he named are really Knights of Malta. I love that he quotes the "History" Channel.

This guy is spewing just out a bunch of unsubstantiated Christian fundamentalist propaganda. Freemasonry is not about the destruction of the Christian faith and its followers. If anyone actually believes a single word, then you need your head examined and you deserve to be misled. He's nothing more than a mouthpiece for Fear Inc. who seek to control people through fear; it's spiritual, moral, and intellectual terrorism. This guy is a crazy anti-Semite and historical revisionist from South Africa who is giving 7th Day Adventists a bad name.

I also wish that guy could properly and correctly pronounce words. 




> 


It's just too bad you couldn't post the entire speech instead of this one excerpt as JFK, previous to this quote, calls for greater secrecy.

This speech was actually about the balance between national security and freedom of the press; he called for publishers to be more responsible if they come across national security secrets. He wasn't denouncing fraternal organizations.

It's too bad things like this are posted as it shows the deceitful tactics of some to push their agenda instead of posting the pertinent facts.

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## Network

> It's too bad things like this are posted as it shows the deceitful tactics of some to push their agenda instead of posting the pertinent facts.


It's too bad that you post a bunch of drivel with no sources.  I guess every forum needs a Mason like you.  It's quite obvious who all was an initiate (both sides of the world wars), they may be above your head, and I can't blame you for that.  

Let's continue this conversation step by step, and you can tell me about Hitler and Himmler.  Any quotes or ties they might have to Jesuits or freemasons?

How about FDR and Churchill?  Shall we find them photographed in full uniform?

Pike says your order is Luciferian.  Forgive me if I believe him over your low level cries.  You're just a goyem.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I love how he says he wants to leave it up to the viewer, but he's guiding them with his perception. The image tied to the opening quote is his interpretation, nothing more. All of this is his interpretation and posted with his skew. There is no way for someone to get an unbiased view since he's already put his slant on it.
> 
> Plus, who cares what this self-righteous douchebag thinks. Within the first 5-minutes he essentially says fidelity and honesty are not good or at least not good to be personified.
> 
> He speaks of the Knights Templar having 2 doctrines and yet there exists no records to back that up. How can anybody take him serious when he just fabricates information? He's completely wrong about Kabballah and Gnostic, and their doctrine. Eliphas Levi is not a "high Masonic source." The Jesuits didn't create the Freemasons; there is evidence that dates Freemasonry prior to their formation (ie Regius Poem).
> 
> This guy is a simpleton as he believes symbols have a single use, interpretation, and/or meaning, and that anyone who uses similar symbols are connected. This is completely ignorant and shows illogical his mind is. Throughout the entire video he makes erroneous statements like this. He also seems very ignorant as to the history of Catholicism and how it converted pagans into its doctrines. Plus, he seems to make Christianity such a narrow box and takes so much away from it. He, like so many, have de-mystified Christianity, taken away its compassion, and turned it into a puritanical militant organization.
> 
> He quotes Nesta Webster who was a fascist and supported people like Hitler.
> ...


I have the speech memorized, actually. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone more into JFK than me.

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## Guest

I disagree with KSigMason on the Kennedy thing.  I heard the whole speech and I still think he meant the CIA.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (05-07-2013)

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## Network

Catholics obviously adhere to a distorted version of Christianity.  Original video is the truth, ksigmason is full of propaganda or lies.  The Roman Catholic Church has been behind most of the human suffering for centuries.

C'mon.  You put a virgin on a pedestal, confess to a pedophile, and elect a flesh idol.

Catholicism is paganism.  All of the symbolism is there in all of your houses of worship.  It's a joke.

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## Guest

> Catholics obviously adhere to a distorted version of Christianity.  Original video is the truth, ksigmason is full of propaganda or lies.  The Roman Catholic Church has been behind most of the human suffering for centuries.
> 
> C'mon.  You put a virgin on a pedestal, confess to a pedophile, and elect a flesh idol.
> 
> Catholicism is paganism.  All of the symbolism is there in all of your houses of worship.  It's a joke.


I had a mondo post on this and you ignored it, hopeless one.

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## Network

> I had a mondo post on this and you ignored it, hopeless one.



Point me to it, one who believes in flesh-worship.

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## Guest

Started on page 2 and went back and forth with the kilogram.  

http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...eirdness/page2

I think whatever "this" is obviously is older than 2000 years.

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## Network

> Started on page 2 and went back and forth with the kilogram.  
> 
> http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...eirdness/page2
> 
> I think whatever "this" is obviously is older than 2000 years.



Yeah, it's older than 2000 years.  

Because the Roman Church and Eezlam are both rooted in Babylon.  I bookmarked the other thread but I have to sleep for the sake of pagans.   I'll restore it and Catholicism.

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## Guest

> Yeah, it's older than 2000 years.  
> 
> Because the Roman Church and Eezlam are both rooted in Babylon.  I bookmarked the other thread but I have to sleep for the sake of pagans.   I'll restore it and Catholicism.


Yes, I have some Workaholics to watch.

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## KSigMason

It's too bad that you post a bunch of drivel with no sources.[/QUOTE]
I just countered his opinion with my opinion. He chopped up quotes and put his slant on them. He talked about his interpretation, not that of the Fraternity.

Here I'll source some of my previous post, but I don't have all night right now:




> He speaks of the Knights Templar having 2 doctrines and yet there exists no records to back that up.


He provides no evidence of his assertion to the contrary and there exists no documentation to support that the Templars had "2-doctrines".




> Eliphas Levi is not a "high Masonic source."


Initiated: 14 March, 1861 
Dropped from rolls: August 21, 1861
Lodge Rose du Parfait Silence
Grand Orient of France, Paris. <------ Not a recognized form of Freemasonry




> The Jesuits didn't create the Freemasons; there is evidence that dates Freemasonry prior to their formation (ie Regius Poem).


The Regius Poem is dated back to 1390s, but talks of events around 926 AD.




> Plus, he seems to make Christianity such a narrow box and takes so much away from it. He, like so many, have de-mystified Christianity, taken away its compassion, and turned it into a puritanical militant organization.


This is just my observation of those who claim to be "christian", but have replaced it with doctrines of superstition and fear.




> He quotes Nesta Webster who was a fascist and supported people like Hitler.


She was a member of a pro-fascist group.




> The Chinon Parchment shows that the Church was going to pardon the Templars, but disband them.


http://www.travelingtemplar.com/2012...parchment.html




> As to the perpetuation myths, there is no evidence, none...zero...zilch that exists to prove any of it.


How do I prove a negative. There is no evidence, no surviving record, only a romanticized idea. The biggest offender of creating some of the Templar perpetuation myths in the 18th century were Masons trying to prop up their newly formed order. Stephen Dafoe shoots those theories full of holes in his book "Compasses and the Cross"




> Masonic reference to the Templars is in commemoration only.


From the Grand Encampment of the Knights Templar of the USA:

"THERE IS NO PROOF OF DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE ANCIENT ORDER AND THE MODERN ORDER KNOWN TO DAY AS THE KNIGHTS TEMPLAR."




> IHS doesn't equal Isis, Horus, and Set. Regardless, they wouldn't be the "holy trinity" in Egyptian mythology. That would be Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Set was the enemy to those three, not their friend or completion.


If that guy's theory of the trinity being father, mother, son then it would be Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Set was the enemy of Horus.




> Pike did not found the Scottish Rite nor was he the "highest Freemason".


There is no single "highest Freemason". He presided over the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite, but that body doesn't exercise any authority over any other body.




> The narrator makes the claim that Jean Baptiste Janssens is in charge of several groups, but provides no evidence.


This "black pope" was never in charge of any Masonic body, least of all the conglomerated term he threw together. Our leaders are elected and govern by the rules established by the members.




> People like him will quote other anti-Masons and bigots. It's circular. Person A will quote Person B who quotes Person C who quotes Person D who quotes Person A...throughout time you just add more and more people to this and it spirals.


This is seen all the time in the writings of anti-Masons. They also like to cite hoaxes like the Taxil Hoax.




> It's just too bad you couldn't post the entire speech instead of this one excerpt as JFK, previous to this quote, calls for greater secrecy.
> 
> This speech was actually about the balance between national security and freedom of the press; he called for publishers to be more responsible if they come across national security secrets. He wasn't denouncing fraternal organizations.


"I refer, first, to the need for far greater public information; and, second, to the need for far greater official secrecy." 

For the rest of the speech, I refer you to this link of the actual speech, not just a portion of it.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=8093




> I guess every forum needs a Mason like you.


Spreading the truth in the face of defamation and liars.




> Any quotes or ties they might have to Jesuits or freemasons?


They banned Freemasonry and sent them to death camps.




> How about FDR and Churchill? Shall we find them photographed in full uniform?


I never denied that FDR or Churchill were Masons.




> Pike says your order is Luciferian.


Where?




> Forgive me if I believe him over your low level cries. You're just a goyem.


I always love this argument. You say I'm only low level, but in the same breath you say you know more than me.

You have no idea where I sit in the Fraternity:

I've presided over 2-Lodges, a Royal Arch Chapter, Council of Cryptic Masons, and I currently preside over a Commandery of Knights Templar; I one of the heads of my Eastern Star Chapter. I'm a Grand officer in Royal Arch and Cryptic Masonry. I'm an officer in the Scottish Rite-32° (althought not as active as I wish I was), Red Cross of Constantine (with the appendant Orders of the Holy Sepulchre and St. John the Evangelist), and York Rite College. I'm a member of the Commemorative Order of St. Thomas of Acon (an order based out of England) and Order of Knight Masons; I'm 1 of 5 in Idaho who are members of these bodies. I've also been invited to join the Royal Order of Scotland. I sit on committees for my Grand Lodge, Grand Chapter, Grand Council, Grand Commandery, and General Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masonry International. I've also received the "chair" degrees of the York Rite and by the end of the year I'll be eligible to be invited into the Knights of the York Cross of Honor. So please, tell me more about my level in Masonry. :Cool20: 

I'm also the Associate Guardian of a Job's Daughter Bethel and I'm helping restart a Chapter of DeMolay. 




> I have the speech memorized, actually. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone more into JFK than me.


So you agree that he calls for more secrecy then?




> Original video is the truth, ksigmason is full of propaganda or lies.


Except his video was full of lies...as I pointed out.




> The Roman Catholic Church has been behind most of the human suffering for centuries.


I never said they weren't. The Catholic Church has no love for Freemasonry.

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## Network

If there is an establishment to blame for the order of human civilization, it is the masons and their higher level luciferian cousin organizations.  

The thing is, they are correct.  Lucifer was the older brother of Heyzeus and the true manifestation of god on earth.  The architect is evil, as we can see by all of our suffering.  

G'night and G'luck

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## Network

Saddam Hussein was a 33rd degree mason installed by the west, he died in 1999.

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## KSigMason

> If there is an establishment to blame for the order of human civilization, it is the masons and their higher level luciferian cousin organizations.


Uh huh...well, some people just need someone else to blame to make themselves feel better.

Please post where Pike said that Freemasons were a Luciferian order.




> Saddam Hussein was a 33rd degree mason installed by the west, he died in 1999.


No he wasn't. He banned Freemasonry in Iraq. Fascists, despots, and tyrants like have always hated Freemasonry and banned it. You seem to keep good company.

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## Network

It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagansThus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds. (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942)

It has often been charged that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation  and even to make it her boast the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized -The Story of Catholicism p 37

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the New Babylon. -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults. -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94


Great album:  Paegan Terrorism Tactics







I'm not even religious, more so spiritually confused and basically agnostic.  But a spade is a spade.

As for freemasonry, the symbolism is outrageous and all over the place.  I don't like the accomplishments of the powerful masons and their directed history.  If you want to pay homage to ancient gods and play with numbers, feel free to do so, keep it to yourselves and out of ruling and manipulating the minds of others.  


Walter Veith seems popular here.  In this video he leads you through the cathedrals and all of their non-Christian symbolism.

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## Guest

As I said to @KSigMason

You can't admit that you have secrets (sorry, "private stuff" = "secret stuff") and then expect us to believe you that one of those secrets/private stuff isn't the 33 degree mason thing.

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## KSigMason

> As for freemasonry, the symbolism is outrageous and all over the place.


Like I said before, symbols are not singular or exclusive in their meaning, definition, or use. The swastika is one example of this.

What exactly is "outrageous"?




> I don't like the accomplishments of the powerful masons and their directed history.


Such as?




> If you want to pay homage to ancient gods and play with numbers, feel free to do so, keep it to yourselves and out of ruling and manipulating the minds of others.


There is no religious exercises in Freemasonry. We don't pay homage to ancient gods. One's religious beliefs are their own to practice on their own time.What exactly is wrong with those who "play with numbers"? lol




> As I said to @KSigMasonYou can't admit that you have secrets (sorry, "private stuff" = "secret stuff") and then expect us to believe you that one of those secrets/private stuff isn't the 33 degree mason thing.


Except the 33rd is only relevant in the Scottish Rite. A 33rd could come to a Blue Lodge and has no additional authority other than that which has in the Lodge. The Sovereign Grand Commander of the Southern Jurisdictions, Ronald Seale, himself could come to my Lodge and he'd just have to sit on the sidelines. He would have no authority in the Lodge. If he was a Past Master or Past Grand Master, he'd be recognized as such, but even then he still wouldn't have any authority as he's not from Idaho. This is also applicable to anything. I mean with all of my titles in the various bodies, they only matter in the body in which they are in -- they don't transfer. There is more to Freemasonry than the Scottish Rite. It's just one branch and for some reason, today's cup of tea. 

The York Rite has far many more degrees if include the invitational and honorary degrees. I don't get why people get stuck on the numbering system of the Scottish Rite, but it's not the authority overall of Freemasonry. I mean, I don't think people realize that hundreds are invited to receive the 33rd degree.

The Blue Lodge is the true center of power. Think of it like a tree. The Blue Lodge is the trunk, the main part of the tree. The appendant bodies are just branches, but are not superior to the trunk and rely upon the trunk for life. If I get expelled from the York Rite I am just expelled from the York Rite. If I'm expelled from the Blue Lodge I am expelled from all of Masonry. Appendant bodies must also have permission from the Grand Lodge (in the US that is each State in the Union) to operate within that jurisdiction.

Freemasonry is as uber secret as many believe it is.

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## Guest

@KSigMason,

not really my point.  Also, don't be offended...tone is not clear on the internet.  What I am saying is a logical paradigm for you that breaches all further conversation.

That we keep secrets is a fact.  That secrets are information we cannot tell you, that secrets are information that must be hidden, is a fact.  

If those two are facts, then this cannot yet be trusted as fact:   We don't have _______________________________ or we do have___________________.

That is all I am saying.

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## Trinnity

> This guy is a simpleton as he believes symbols have a single use, interpretation, and/or meaning, and that anyone who uses similar symbols are connected.


I was thinking about that too.

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KSigMason (05-10-2013)

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## KSigMason

> @KSigMason,
> 
> not really my point.  Also, don't be offended...tone is not clear on the internet.


I'm not offended. I just get on rants and can't stop. I just sometimes laugh and/or shake my head when so many focus on the 33rd degree and the Scottish Rite. I'm a member of both the Scottish Rite and the York Rite, but I much prefer the York Rite. It's nothing against the Scottish Rite, but I find the York Rite much more interesting.




> If those two are facts, then this cannot yet be trusted as fact:


Keeping secrets is doesn't negate ones ability to be trusted. In fact I'd argue that secrecy builds trust.

I am still working on an article called "Secrecy: What's the big deal?" I will post it when I'm done.

Here are some quotes that I plan on using in it:

Every relationship between two individuals or two groups will be characterized by the ratio of secrecy that is involved in it. Even when one of the parties does not notice the secret factor, yet the attitude of the concealer, and consequently the whole relationship, will be modified by it.
 - Georg Simmel, _The Sociology of Secrecy and of Secret Societies_

The obsessive fear of secrets leads to the denial of the right of secrecy and a rise in the demand for publicity. Concomitantly, distrust of privacy is accompanied by obsession with secrecy. Likewise, an open attitude toward privacy leads to a lessening of concern with secrecy.
 - Beryl L. Bellman, _The Paradox of Secrecy_

Trust and secrecy are compatible in those voluntary organizations in which all members can gain access to private knowledge while placing their trust in colleagues to share protective information.
 - Gary Alan Fine and Lori Holyfield, _Secrecy, Trust, and Dangerous  Leisure: Generating Group Cohesion in Voluntary Organizations_

The link between trust and secrecy supports group cohesion while leaving room for personal investments.
 - Gary Alan Fine and Lori Holyfield, _Secrecy, Trust, and Dangerous  Leisure: Generating Group Cohesion in Voluntary Organizations_

Trust and secrecy, in our view, are pervasive and necessary features of social order; they are present in virtually every situation in which interactants care about the doings of others.
 - Gary Alan Fine and Lori Holyfield, _Secrecy, Trust, and Dangerous  Leisure: Generating Group Cohesion in Voluntary Organizations_
As I was pleasantly surprised to see this:

As a general proposition,  the secret society emerges everywhere as correlate of despotism and of  police control. It acts as protection alike of defense and of offense  against the violent pressure of central powers. This is true, not alone  in political relations, but in the same way within the church, the  school, and the family.
 - Georg Simmel, "The Sociology of Secrecy and of Secret Societies"

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## Guest

> I'm not offended. I just get on rants and can't stop. I just sometimes laugh and/or shake my head when so many focus on the 33rd degree and the Scottish Rite. I'm a member of both the Scottish Rite and the York Rite, but I much prefer the York Rite. It's nothing against the Scottish Rite, but I find the York Rite much more interesting.


Oh, I have no idea or care if there is a 33 degree Mason.  It was just part of my argument.




> Keeping secrets is doesn't negate ones ability to be trusted. In fact I'd argue that secrecy builds trust.


Trusted by those you are keeping secrets _for_, not trusted by those _outside_ that bond.  It builds no trust with me to say that you are willing to do what is necessary to keep someone else's secret.  I then know that when asked about that secret you are compelled to lie or evade to me.  I may see you as a trustworthy individual for _some_, but your words to _me_ are untrustworthy.

It is nothing against you.  I explained the logic earlier, that it is a logical paradigm for you that breaches all further conversation.

_That we keep secrets is a fact.  That secrets are information we cannot  tell you, that secrets are information that must be hidden, is a fact.  

If those two are facts, then this cannot yet be trusted as fact:   We  don't have _______________________________ or we do  have___________________._


Now, I really have to get back to this case that will make my career and has wrecked my life.

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## KSigMason

> Trusted by those you are keeping secrets _for_, not trusted by those _outside_ that bond.


Do you not keep secrets for your spouse?




> I then know that when asked about that secret you are compelled to lie or evade to me.


This is your opinion. I do not feel compelled to lie about the secrets. If I was asked something that goes over a portion I promised to keep within the Fraternity I'd say that I cannot answer that.

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## Guest

> Do you not keep secrets for your spouse?


There is a reason the legal system does not compel a spouse to testify and it goes beyond morality.  It is logical.  You will lie for each other.  There is trust _within_ that relationship, not outside of it.




> This is your opinion. I do not feel compelled to lie about the secrets. If I was asked something that goes over a portion I promised to keep within the Fraternity I'd say that I cannot answer that.


No, it is a logical argument.  It does not mean that you would necessarily lie, but that you must keep a secret.  In other words, my logical argument is not about what compels you, what you believe, etc.  It is about what _I_ can accept at face value, ie I cannot trust what you say in regards to it because you are sworn to secrecy.

That is not necessarily a bad thing, mind you.  Within your group, it is a good thing.

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## KSigMason

> There is a reason the legal system does not compel a spouse to testify and it goes beyond morality.  It is logical.  You will lie for each other.  There is trust _within_ that relationship, not outside of it.


So no other relationship matters and secrets shouldn't be kept?




> It is about what _I_ can accept at face value, ie I cannot trust what you say in regards to it because you are sworn to secrecy.


Like I said, this is a belief of yours. There is nothing inherently wrong with secrecy.

If you never knew I was a Mason, you'd trust me, but then you find out someone is a Mason and you lose trust? Why? Because they won't share their secrets with you? Doesn't it show a lack of trust on your part? Wouldn't you have more respect for someone who kept their word rather than someone who can't keep their word?

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## Guest

> So no other relationship matters and secrets shouldn't be kept?


I never said secrets shouldn't be kept.  I said that you can expect people to lie for their spouse on the stand.  I also said that if you must maintain a secret for a group, you will lie to maintain it.  The CIA for example, does not go into countries under the auspices of being an agent for the CIA.  They are always something else.




> Like I said, this is a belief of yours. There is nothing inherently wrong with secrecy.


Where did I say there was anything inherently wrong with secrecy, @KSigMason?




> If you never knew I was a Mason, you'd trust me, but then you find out someone is a Mason and you lose trust? Why? Because they won't share their secrets with you? Doesn't it show a lack of trust on your part? Wouldn't you have more respect for someone who kept their word rather than someone who can't keep their word?


I would trust you about things other than the Masons.  You've said you must keep Masonic secrets, so..._insert logical argument from previous posts about the paradox._

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