# Politics and News > Rants, Opinions, Observations >  has anyone here met an actual real live sociopath?

## nonsqtr

This is a serious question.

And I think it's probably directed at those of you who know what is sociopath actually is.

The question is have you ever actually met one?

I'm 57 years old, and not being a forensic psychologist or anything, I'm pretty sure I just met my first real live sociopath.

This one is a mild case. Because the person is still running around (ie not institutionalized).

The subtlety of the behavior is truly astonishing.

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Neo (01-29-2021),Northern Rivers (06-11-2017),Quark (06-11-2017),Swedgin (06-13-2017)

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## MrogersNhood

Yes. This board has one, even.

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Big Dummy (06-11-2017),Coolwalker (06-12-2017),JMWinPR (06-12-2017),QuaseMarco (06-12-2017)

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## Daily Bread

I married a Sicilian.

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DonGlock26 (06-14-2017),Dr. Felix Birdbiter (06-11-2017),JMWinPR (06-12-2017),MrogersNhood (06-11-2017),NuYawka (06-11-2017),Victory101 (01-19-2021)

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## Calypso Jones

> I married a Sicilian.


hmmm. close but no match.   Actually.  I rather admire Sicilians.

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Daily Bread (06-11-2017)

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## Big Dummy

Should I start a ; Ask a scociopath any question ; thread?

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nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## HawkTheSlayer

Lol @ all the comments. 
I lived with one for about a year from 2011-2012. 
I've known several. 
Each one is dangerous in their own way.

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Daily Bread (06-11-2017),Montana (06-18-2017)

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## Calypso Jones

sociopaths are not as dangerous as psychopaths.  Sociopaths can get along all their lives without being institutionalized.   Probably die sociopathic.

http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Sociopath

I think this describes the Clintons, obamas and about 94% of all politicians and media across the country.

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ChemEngineer (06-11-2017),Jen (06-11-2017),JMWinPR (06-12-2017),Madison (06-15-2017),Mainecoons (06-11-2017),QuaseMarco (06-12-2017),usfan (08-21-2017)

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## East of the Beast

give me the classic symptoms of a sociopath.So, I'll know what I'm looking for.

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## Big Dummy

> give me the classic symptoms of a sociopath.So, I'll know what I'm looking for.


Puerto Rico Wants Statehood - Page 2

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JMWinPR (06-12-2017)

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## HawkTheSlayer

> sociopaths are not as dangerous as psychopaths.  Sociopaths can get along all their lives without being institutionalized.   Probably die sociopathic.
> 
> http://www.wikihow.com/Spot-a-Sociopath
> 
> I think this describes the Clintons, obamas and about 94% of all politicians and media across the country.


Speaking from a personal standpoint, they are very dangerous in the sense that they will not try to kill you physically, rather, they will try to discredit you and your reputation by any means possible. Including lieing, stealing , Internet liable and slander, and even reporting you to law enforcement officials for non-existent crimes.

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Jen (06-11-2017)

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## NuYawka

Do we have to rule out family members?

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darroll (01-19-2021),NORAD (06-12-2017)

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## Deno

I don't think I have ever met one.....

I have met some big liars though.

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## patrickt

I'm not a psychologists and don't have any faith in them anyway but I've met people who aren't really human.

A young college student was working in a convenience store. A man robbed the store and told the clerk to get on his knees. The clerk begged him not to shoot and he said he told the clerk he just didn't want him to see which way he went when he left. Then he shot the clerk in the back of the head. When asked why, he looked confused and said, "Why not?"

A man killed his mother, grandmother, and a woman who happened to be visiting. He told me, "If wasn't my fault. They had money and wouldn't give it to me. What else could I do?"

"Maybe, get a job?" He laughed like it was the best joke he ever heard.

I don't know sociopath from psychopath but I know some people aren't human. Others, like some people I worked for and some politicians I dealt with are human but totally self-serving.

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Neo (01-29-2021)

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## Dr. Felix Birdbiter

> I married a Sicilian.


My mother was a full blooded Sicilian, couldn't trust her around knives.

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Big Dummy (06-11-2017),MrogersNhood (06-11-2017)

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## Dr. Felix Birdbiter

> give me the classic symptoms of a sociopath.So, I'll know what I'm looking for.


How do you spot a sociopath? | Reference.com

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## Madison

I`m not a Psychiatrist but sound easy to diagnose something is definately wrong.
I really think Hillary and Bill Clinton are sociopaths and psychopaths

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ChemEngineer (06-11-2017)

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## Hillofbeans

> give me the classic symptoms of a sociopath.So, I'll know what I'm looking for.


How to Spot a Sociopath (with Pictures) - wikiHow

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## Jen

I am pretty sure I met one while I was in college.  He had no conscience. But he was brilliant,  charismatic, and glib..  His father was an evangelical minister. He would sit at my piano and play "Just As I Am" and sing it, stopping every once in a while to do a really good imitation of a Billy Graham altar call.  It sounded real, but was completely cold.  He lived with an older woman, dated her daughter and mocked her mastectomy by putting her falsies on top of candles and making jokes.  He never went to class but took the finals, aced them and  had a little talk with the professors and graduated with honors.  I could tell you more...........................  

I never dated him (whew) he was a peripheral friend - our parents went to college together, his family was well known by everyone in the college,  and his grandmother lived near the campus and everyone in the college knew her .  

But when we went our separate ways I made sure never to seek him out again.  He was chilling.

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Madison (06-12-2017),MrogersNhood (06-11-2017),nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## Daily Bread

> hmmm. close but no match.   Actually.  I rather admire Sicilians.


She's drop dead gorgeous , a phenomenal wife and mother and I'm extremely lucky to be married to her . 
But the girls crazy .

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## Jen

> Speaking from a personal standpoint, they are very dangerous in the sense that they will not try to kill you physically, rather, they will try to discredit you and your reputation by any means possible. Including lieing, stealing , Internet liable and slander, and even reporting you to law enforcement officials for non-existent crimes.


Hmmm............now that I think about it I think I posted with one a few years back.  Luckily she's gone now.  But she fits into this description almost exactly.  She asked me to lie for her.............  Lied about me...........  Luckily there was no legal stuff involved.

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## MrogersNhood

> She's drop dead gorgeous , a phenomenal wife and mother and I'm extremely lucky to be married to her . 
> But the girls crazy .


Eh, that's just the Latin thing.

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## Jen

> I`m not a Psychiatrist but sound easy to diagnose something is definately wrong.
> I really think Hillary and Bill Clinton are sociopaths and psychopaths


They certainly fit the criteria.

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ChemEngineer (06-11-2017),darroll (01-19-2021),Madison (06-12-2017)

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## Matt

I've taken plenty to the hospital before. Had a few that were straight up homicidal maniacs (although to my knowledge I don't think they had killed anyone...yet).

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## Quark

> This is a serious question.
> 
> And I think it's probably directed at those of you who know what is sociopath actually is.
> 
> The question is have you ever actually met one?
> 
> I'm 57 years old, and not being a forensic psychologist or anything, I'm pretty sure I just met my first real live sociopath.
> 
> This one is a mild case. Because the person is still running around (ie not institutionalized).
> ...


Yup I sure have but I'll say nothing to protect the innocent.

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## Sled Dog

> Yes. This board has one, even.


Leave me alone.

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East of the Beast (06-12-2017),MrogersNhood (06-11-2017),nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## JustPassinThru

:Biglaugh:

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## Northern Rivers

> This is a serious question.
> 
> And I think it's probably directed at those of you who know what is sociopath actually is.
> 
> The question is have you ever actually met one?
> 
> I'm 57 years old, and not being a forensic psychologist or anything, I'm pretty sure I just met my first real live sociopath.
> 
> This one is a mild case. Because the person is still running around (ie not institutionalized).
> ...


I know one...but, no comment.

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Madison (06-12-2017),nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## Big Dummy

> I know one...but, no comment.



Divorce is not final yet?

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East of the Beast (06-12-2017),Northern Rivers (06-12-2017)

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## MrogersNhood

> Leave me alone.


It's not you, but nice try.  :Wink:

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Madison (06-12-2017)

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## ChemEngineer

> But the girls crazy .



That's her JOB!  Driving you crazy.  It goes the other way too.  
What would a gorgeous woman be doing with you, Googenheimer?

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## Calypso Jones

> I am pretty sure I met one while I was in college.  He had no conscience. But he was brilliant,  charismatic, and glib..  His father was an evangelical minister. He would sit at my piano and play "Just As I Am" and sing it, stopping every once in a while to do a really good imitation of a Billy Graham altar call.  It sounded real, but was completely cold.  He lived with an older woman, dated her daughter and mocked her mastectomy by putting her falsies on top of candles and making jokes.  He never went to class but took the finals, aced them and  had a little talk with the professors and graduated with honors.  I could tell you more...........................  
> 
> I never dated him (whew) he was a peripheral friend - our parents went to college together, his family was well known by everyone in the college,  and his grandmother lived near the campus and everyone in the college knew her .  
> 
> But when we went our separate ways I made sure never to seek him out again.  He was chilling.


what if I told you it was Sled Dog?

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## Jen

> what if I told you it was Sled Dog?


No worries.  It's not.  I found out in my college alumni periodical a few years ago that the fellow I knew.........has died.

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## Jen

I don't think sociopaths are usually institutionalized.
I know a clinical psychologist who jokingly says he's a sociopath......  and it might be true........
Maybe that would help in his line of work.
 :Dontknow:

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## Sled Dog

> No worries.  It's not.  I found out in my college alumni periodical a few years ago that the fellow I knew.........has died.


Well, I don't think that was me.

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## Jen

> Well, I don't think that was me.


Nope. I didn't even suspect you at all. :Smiley20:   Unless you're part of the zombie apocalypse. Now that might be impressive.

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## Calypso Jones

> I don't think sociopaths are usually institutionalized.
> I know a clinical psychologist who jokingly says he's a sociopath......  and it might be true........
> Maybe that would help in his line of work.


we don't call them sociopaths in real life.  We use layman's term.....obamasshole

LOLOL

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darroll (01-19-2021),Jen (06-11-2017),Madison (06-12-2017)

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## Jen

> we don't call them sociopaths in real life.  We use layman's term.....obamasshole
> 
> LOLOL


 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## Roadmaster

Lol I took enough classes I don't even want to see another book on this. But I will answer by experience and not the book.

A  sociopath loves to lie and if you believe their lies they will keep lying. If they get caught it doesn't bother them, they will either blame you for them having to lie or make up more lies to convince you, you were wrong. Have you even been out somewhere and you knew the person, he or she is charming to everyone, people like them even strangers. They go out of their way for approval but are complete asshole to people who love them, even their children. The biggest reason they do this is to gain your trust while they blame everything on their family. An example: He will go into the house throw a temper, mess the house up and then tell everyone she is lazy and never cleans house. Drag a person into a relationship wanting them to think they are helpless or going through a rough time but in secret they want to control your every move. They love to deceive the strong and gets a high doing it but also loves to cut down the weak. These people love no one but themselves and are not happy unless they are hurting their family while walking out smiling knowing they are.

If you meet someone like this or has traits, run. 

 Psychopaths, people think they are more dangerous but I disagree unless they go wrong. These are the type of people you want to fly fighter jets or take jobs that are dangerous. They hold their composer and are not very emotional. They do well under pressure. Graphic scenes really don't bother them, but the books will tell you a sociopath has this trait, wrong when things go bad they will flee or say I need another family it's them not me.



Anyway that's my take talking to many.

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East of the Beast (06-12-2017),Jen (06-11-2017),nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## East of the Beast

Well I'm happy to say I have no friends or family that fits that description.

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## JMWinPR

> Yes. This board has one, even.


One??? I can name 4 and 1 honorable mention!!!!!

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MrogersNhood (06-12-2017)

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## Roadmaster

> Well I'm happy to say I have no friends or family that fits that description.


 Sociopaths are harder to spot their traits unless you really know the family and their secrets.  You see a family, normal, he or she acts nice to the family around strangers or friends. It's when no one looking or in there house. It's when the family has lost trust in the person and has had enough, is when they will claim these things.

Psychopath traits, I have a few. Delayed emotion comes to mind. Do I care when a family member is dying, of course I do but it usually takes days after by my self to show emotion. I thought this out long and hard and this could be the difference. When  something tragic happens, I am sad but I am thinking what do I do next. While say my siblings are crying coming into the room. I don't think I am a psychopath I just look at things different. If you are say in the woods and someone is coming after you, the first thing you should be thinking is find a safe place and get out because emotions don't do you any good, be emotional after you are safe. I would bet others here have this too.

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nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> Lol I took enough classes I don't even want to see another book on this. But I will answer by experience and not the book.
> 
> A  sociopath loves to lie and if you believe their lies they will keep lying. If they get caught it doesn't bother them, they will either blame you for them having to lie or make up more lies to convince you, you were wrong. Have you even been out somewhere and you knew the person, he or she is charming to everyone, people like them even strangers. They go out of their way for approval but are complete asshole to people who love them, even their children. The biggest reason they do this is to gain your trust while they blame everything on their family. An example: He will go into the house throw a temper, mess the house up and then tell everyone she is lazy and never cleans house. Drag a person into a relationship wanting them to think they are helpless or going through a rough time but in secret they want to control your every move. They love to deceive the strong and gets a high doing it but also loves to cut down the weak. These people love no one but themselves and are not happy unless they are hurting their family while walking out smiling knowing they are.
> 
> If you meet someone like this or has traits, run. 
> 
>  Psychopaths, people think they are more dangerous but I disagree unless they go wrong. These are the type of people you want to fly fighter jets or take jobs that are dangerous. They hold their composer and are not very emotional. They do well under pressure. Graphic scenes really don't bother them, but the books will tell you a sociopath has this trait, wrong when things go bad they will flee or say I need another family it's them not me.
> 
> 
> ...


This seems to be pretty accurate, thanks for that.

I've been studying this a little bit, there seems to be a very simple genetic precursor, but it's expression during development is exceedingly complex.

There are apparently several distinct variations of sociopathy and psychopathy that are all explained by mutations on a gene called SCL6A4. It has to do with the action of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the brain.

It looks like it begins with a serotonin pathway into the amygdala, that prevents the normal experience of fear. This would be early in life, say age 10 to early teens.

From there it goes to a whole different system in the vmPFC (ventromedial prefrontal cortex), and the faulty serotonin pathways there create a "lack of empathy" that includes an inability to form and hold emotional relationships. The vmPFC is responsible for inhibiting behavior, on the basis of social and moral norms. Normally this would develop about age 15.

What happens is the value system adjusts accordingly, and a high-functioning sociopath is usually quite intelligent, so they substitute actual emotional bonds with the intellectual equivalent. They observe other people forming emotional bonds, and they conclude that this is what is expected of them, and therefore this is how they behave until they get bored. When they get bored they just move on because there's no reason for them to stay, there's none of the usual emotional inertia that makes people "stick around".

A true sociopath will exhibit emotional distress during a breakup, but it's not because they love you, it's because they're experiencing a sense of loss over the object they can easily manipulate.

It's entirely pointless trying to make a sociopath aware of their behavior. It's not that they don't know it's that they don't care.

Sociopaths are highly manipulative people. Other people become like pawns on a chessboard because there is none of the usual empathy.

You can create a sociopath by damaging the vmPFC. However the result will be a person without any coping mechanisms. Most sociopaths and psychopaths acquire a lot of coping mechanisms during their lives.

But yeah - run. It can't be fixed and it can't be cured.

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## nonsqtr

> Leave me alone.


You can test yourself.

There's three standard diagnostic tests, they're called MMPI, PPL,, and PPI.

They're all administered by a company called Pearson. You can't get the scoring sheets unless you're a professional.

But you can take the Levenson test online.

My scores are 2.2 and 2.4, which puts me at about a 60. "Slightly psychotic". lol  :Wink: 

(I knew that already, I'm a creative type, what can I say).  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## nonsqtr

> I've taken plenty to the hospital before. Had a few that were straight up homicidal maniacs (although to my knowledge I don't think they had killed anyone...yet).


The person I saw tried to mow down some concert-goers with a car.

In psychiatric terminology this would be called "impulsivity" and "risky behavior".

Consequences mean absolutely nothing to a sociopath.

The pathway inhibiting behavior on the basis of social and moral norms is not working.

Things that seem like a good idea go straight to behavior.

In terms of relationships there's tons of literature on the classic mix of a sociopath and a borderline. It might even be in Shakespeare. lol

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## nonsqtr

> I don't think I have ever met one.....
> 
> I have met some big liars though.


Not all sociopaths are necessarily liars - at least not at first.

A sociopath will seek to discover your weaknesses. Once they find out what you're good for they can proceed to manipulate you. But first they will "romance" you to find out what you're good for.

If you're in a relationship with a sociopath typically what happens is they'll build you up first, and while they're doing that they're paying careful attention to your weaknesses. Then next they'll start testing your weaknesses to find out which ones have the most meaning to you. Usually by the time they get into overt manipulation they've already moved on (to a new partner perhaps or maybe just in general), and the more you try to help them or explain stuff to 'em the more they manipulate you cuz the more they can.

What really has been registering on my radar screen is the subtlety of the behavior.

In other words if I start out in a brand new relationship with someone, how do I tell if they're a sociopath? If they tell me I'm the best thing since sliced bread how can I tell if they mean it or if they're just buttering me up? Well the answer is I can test them in impulsive situations. Sociopathy is "always" accompanted by impulsive behavior. If you put 'em in a situation that most people would refuse because it requires too much daring, the sociopath will dive in. She'll convince the hotel clerk that the reservations really did exist, and not only that but she'll make him feel real bad that they got lost. lol  :Wink:

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Deno (06-12-2017),Northern Rivers (06-12-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> I don't think sociopaths are usually institutionalized.
> I know a clinical psychologist who jokingly says he's a sociopath......  and it might be true........
> Maybe that would help in his line of work.


Because of the underlying biochemical mechanism there's almost no such thing as a "pure" sociopath. There is a trio of personality disorders, sociopathy, psychopathy, and narcissistic personality disorder that are almost alike or let's say they share many common elements. Sociopaths for example often consider themselves to be superior human beings because they are not constrained by the emotional linkages of normal people. 

What I've been reading in the literature is that sociopaths who have been confined to institutions at a young age tend to emerge more violent. High-functioning sociopaths are mostly those with a rich environment during development.

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Jen (06-12-2017)

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## Northern Rivers

> Divorce is not final yet?


Nope. The obligatory one year separation is now over...but...until I get this heart thing over and done with...I'm not even buying new shirts!  :Dontknow:

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## Northern Rivers

> Not all sociopaths are necessarily liars - at least not at first.
> 
> A sociopath will seek to discover your weaknesses. Once they find out what you're good for they can proceed to manipulate you. But first they will "romance" you to find out what you're good for.
> 
> If you're in a relationship with a sociopath typically what happens is they'll build you up first, and while they're doing that they're paying careful attention to your weaknesses. Then next they'll start testing your weaknesses to find out which ones have the most meaning to you. Usually by the time they get into overt manipulation they've already moved on (to a new partner perhaps or maybe just in general), and the more you try to help them or explain stuff to 'em the more they manipulate you cuz the more they can.
> 
> What really has been registering on my radar screen is the subtlety of the behavior.
> 
> In other words if I start out in a brand new relationship with someone, how do I tell if they're a sociopath? If they tell me I'm the best thing since sliced bread how can I tell if they mean it or if they're just buttering me up? Well the answer is I can test them in impulsive situations. Sociopathy is "always" accompanted by impulsive behavior. If you put 'em in a situation that most people would refuse because it requires too much daring, the sociopath will dive in. She'll convince the hotel clerk that the reservations really did exist, and not only that but she'll make him feel real bad that they got lost. lol


That's pretty much, it.....

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## Madison

Here one little bastard. *Mark Lafleur* Soon or later you`ll see his name as murderer..pretty sure of it.  Just looking at his face says a lot! A psychopath scumbag
Incredible how you can get freedom when DADDY (Guy Lafleur) is well known and rich!!! Everything goes....
image (2).jpg
Mark Lafleur attended 14 schools because of the drug.
Mark Lafleur has had a long and public battle with mental illness and abuse of various substances.
Guy Lafleur was arrested in 2008 for allegedly giving contradictory testimony during legal proceedings for his son, who was charged with sexual assault. (coverage his son)
The former NHL star was found guilty in 2009 but the conviction was overturned on appeal.

Mark Lafleur was on probation at the time, because in 2009 he was found guilty on charges including assault, sex assault, battery, unlawful confinement and uttering death threats. He pleaded guilty to 23 counts, and was sentenced to 15 months house arrest.

In 2010 Mark Lafleur was arrested in connection with a domestic violence call. Officers arrived at his Blainville residence and arrested both Lafleur and a woman in her 20s. Police also discovered a small quantity of drugs in the home.

Mark Lafleur's first brush with the law. He was arrested in 2015 on impaired driving charges. He was banned from driving for two years and slapped with a $1,500 fine.

*Latest:
Mark Lafleur has been arrested in connection with a series of break and enters in the Montreal area.
Two of the men are 36 years old, while the fourth man is 20.
"For now, we have three men who could be charged for break and entry accusations and one who could be charged for receiving stolen property," said Benoit Boiselle of the Montreal pollice.
Three of the men are due in court Friday to face charges, but not Lafleur.
He was released on a promise to appear in court at the end of February 2016.

lice believe the three other men are linked to four break-ins in Pointe-Claire's Cedar Park neighbourhood and possibly other recent break-ins throughout the West Island in recent months.
Police also raided a home in Pointe Claire on Thursday, saying it was linked to one of the suspects.

Mark Lafleur latests pics...he looks like a little mother fucker
images (33)Mark Lafleur.jpg

images (33)Mark Lafleur.jpg-1.jpg
The guy in bermuda = Mark Lafleur
images (33)--Mark Lafleur-arrested.jpg

*​Wonderful!   Sound like a psychopath..isn`t ? 
How come that scumbag is not locked up in a lifetime institution?*

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NORAD (06-12-2017)

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## QuaseMarco

11 Signs You May Be Dating A Sociopath | HuffPost

*RED FLAG #1. Having an oversized ego.
RED FLAG #2. Lying and exhibiting manipulative behavior.
RED FLAG #3. Exhibiting a lack of empathy
RED FLAG #4. Showing a lack of remorse or shame.
RED FLAG #5. Staying eerily calm in scary or dangerous situations.
RED FLAG #6. Behaving irresponsibly or with extreme impulsivity.
RED FLAG #7. Having few friends.
RED FLAG #8. Being charmingbut only superfically.
RED FLAG #9. Living by the pleasure principle.
RED FLAG #10. Showing disregard for societal norms.
RED FLAG #11. Having intense eyes.*

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Jen (06-12-2017),Madison (06-12-2017),nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## JustPassinThru

> One??? I can name 4 and 1 honorable mention!!!!!


Leave me ALONE, dammit!

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## QuaseMarco

> Leave me ALONE, dammit!


You're too vocal to be a sociopath. You're just a malcontent.

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JustPassinThru (06-12-2017),nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## OverDrive

One of my former B-I-Ls who used his whole family and w/o any guilt. Has been in jail multiple times..

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## memesofine

I think I've met a couple on here. Seems today anybody who follows that Progressive/commie party calling themselves the : DemocRATic party is now required to be one. Just look at them six months after a Republican took away all their "power" over us. Still wailing, stomping their feet, being rude and nasty (like some here) and doing worse like putting on mask and going around rioting and beating up peaceful citizens protesting for a President And calling themselves, ANTI-fascist (what a joke that one is). Now they aren't just sociopath. They are full blown Psychopath.

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## Neo

Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 4.1. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations. 

Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 3.5. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior. 

With two scores, results of the LSRP are very suitable for being plotted. Below is the distribution of how other people who have taken this test have scored. 


You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 91.63% of people who have taken this test. 

You score for secondary psychopathy was higher than 86.46% of people who have taken this test. 







What do the results of the test I have taken really mean?

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Madison (06-15-2017),nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## Canadianeye

> Your score from primary psychopathy has been calculated as 4.1. Primary psychopathy is the affective aspects of psychopathy; a lack of empathy for other people and tolerance for antisocial orientations. 
> 
> Your score from secondary psychopathy has been calculated as 3.5. Secondary psychopathy is the antisocial aspects of psychopathy; rule breaking and a lack of effort towards socially rewarded behavior. 
> 
> With two scores, results of the LSRP are very suitable for being plotted. Below is the distribution of how other people who have taken this test have scored. 
> 
> 
> You score for primary psychopathy was higher than 91.63% of people who have taken this test. 
> 
> ...


You prefer teal.

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MrogersNhood (06-12-2017)

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## Jen

> Sociopaths are harder to spot their traits unless you really know the family and their secrets.  You see a family, normal, he or she acts nice to the family around strangers or friends. It's when no one looking or in there house. It's when the family has lost trust in the person and has had enough, is when they will claim these things.
> 
> Psychopath traits, I have a few. Delayed emotion comes to mind. Do I care when a family member is dying, of course I do but it usually takes days after by my self to show emotion. I thought this out long and hard and this could be the difference. When  something tragic happens, I am sad but I am thinking what do I do next. While say my siblings are crying coming into the room. I don't think I am a psychopath I just look at things different. If you are say in the woods and someone is coming after you, the first thing you should be thinking is find a safe place and get out because emotions don't do you any good, be emotional after you are safe. I would bet others here have this too.


I am the same.  When something bad happens, I am the one that takes care of the details while others are rolling around sobbing.  I never lose myself doing that.  But it's not because I am a sociopath.  I internalize the grief. It can wreak havoc on my body, but I don't show it on the outside and I can, during the time necessary, put it in a place so that I can take care of business.

I agree that it's best to save the emotions for later sometimes.  It's what I do.

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nonsqtr (06-12-2017),NORAD (06-12-2017),Northern Rivers (06-12-2017)

----------


## Jen

> Here one little bastard. *Mark Lafleur* Soon or later you`ll see his name as murderer..pretty sure of it.  Just looking at his face says a lot! A psychopath scumbag
> Incredible how you can get freedom when DADDY (Guy Lafleur) is well known and rich!!! Everything goes....
> Attachment 22419
> Mark Lafleur attended 14 schools because of the drug.
> Mark Lafleur has had a long and public battle with mental illness and abuse of various substances.
> Guy Lafleur was arrested in 2008 for allegedly giving contradictory testimony during legal proceedings for his son, who was charged with sexual assault. (coverage his son)
> The former NHL star was found guilty in 2009 but the conviction was overturned on appeal.
> 
> Mark Lafleur was on probation at the time, because in 2009 he was found guilty on charges including assault, sex assault, battery, unlawful confinement and uttering death threats. He pleaded guilty to 23 counts, and was sentenced to 15 months house arrest.
> ...


It's almost impossible to permanently institutionalize a mentally ill person for the crimes they commit.  Thank the Left for that.

----------

Madison (06-15-2017)

----------


## OverDrive

The pathology can also be learned.

Is a scripture that states ppl *"with a conscience as seared with a hot iron,"*. i.e. multiple offenses can sear the conscience in so lacking guilt

----------


## Jen

> The pathology can also be learned.
> 
> Is a scripture that states ppl *"with a conscience as seared with a hot iron,"*. i.e. multiple offenses can sear the conscience in so lacking guilt


In the realm of guilt, I'm sure that is possible.

I don't know personally though.  I feel guilty all the time for just about anything......  like forgetting something important at the grocery store. Luckily my hubs's  answer to that is "we know where the store is".

----------


## OverDrive

> In the realm of guilt, I'm sure that is possible.
> 
> I don't know personally though.  I feel guilty all the time for just about anything......  like forgetting something important at the grocery store. Luckily my hubs's  answer to that is "we know where the store is".


Kinda sounds like my 1st wife who was a *procrastinator*...,not on purpose, just part of who she was!

----------


## Roadmaster

> 11 Signs You May Be Dating A Sociopath | HuffPost
> 
> *RED FLAG #1. Having an oversized ego.
> RED FLAG #2. Lying and exhibiting manipulative behavior.
> RED FLAG #3. Exhibiting a lack of empathy
> RED FLAG #4. Showing a lack of remorse or shame.
> RED FLAG #5. Staying eerily calm in scary or dangerous situations.
> RED FLAG #6. Behaving irresponsibly or with extreme impulsivity.
> RED FLAG #7. Having few friends.
> ...


I disagree with number 5, they will flee at real danger, or what we call runners from responsibility. The best way for women to spot a potential boy friend as being one in the beginning. First look at his job History. These are the type of people who are never satisfied. They can land a dream job but the happiness doesn't last long. They will talk themselves out of a job and it's always the people around them, it's never their fault. Meet his family, they can only put up a show for so long. They love to listen to themselves talk, love to ask for your opinion but will cut it down or use that to blame you. If a co worker or stranger says the same, they will praise that person, knowing you said the same. Most of them are not good with money. One guy was complaining his girlfriend never paid the bills on time. When you got to the bottom of it, it was him buying things knowing she wouldn't have the funds to do so. So he would go around and tell his friends the few he had, she messed up his credit. Last but not least see if his mom is nice, see how he treats her. If he will be disrespectful to her, he will treat you the same in time. No marriage is perfect but take time to make sure he is not a sociopath.

----------


## Roadmaster

Psychopaths are dangerous only if they are on the other side of the law. They are excellent hit men, mass murderers, and people don't see it coming because of their lack of emotion. Many are very charming people. For instance the "Ice man". If he had been on  the right side of the law he would have been a great person. Now Manson and say Dahmer was a sociopath.  There is a big difference between the two.

----------


## Roadmaster

> I am the same.  When something bad happens, I am the one that takes care of the details while others are rolling around sobbing.  I never lose myself doing that.  But it's not because I am a sociopath.  I internalize the grief. It can wreak havoc on my body, but I don't show it on the outside and I can, during the time necessary, put it in a place so that I can take care of business.
> 
> I agree that it's best to save the emotions for later sometimes.  It's what I do.


I have been that way since childhood. It's not because you are a psychopath. We think first or have this survival mode. Emotions lead to mistakes. For instance when the cops were shot and the other cops ran towards the danger to not only kill the threat but save others. It takes certain types to do this. They don't think about running, hiding or screaming.

----------


## OverDrive

> I have been that way since childhood. It's not because you are a psychopath. We think first or have this survival mode. Emotions lead to mistakes. For instance when the cops were shot and the other cops ran towards the danger to not only kill the threat but save others. It takes certain types to do this. They don't think about running, hiding or screaming.


Never have understood ppl who scream and are paralyzed!  Certain "prey" animals act that way as in offering themselves up...

----------


## Jen

> I have been that way since childhood. It's not because you are a psychopath. We think first or have this survival mode. Emotions lead to mistakes. For instance when the cops were shot and the other cops ran towards the danger to not only kill the threat but save others. It takes certain types to do this. They don't think about running, hiding or screaming.


Agreed.  I feel paralyzed dreading certain events.  But when things happen I am not paralyzed.  I'm glad of that.  

I had a friend who cut her hand badly while chopping vegetables.  She immediately started screaming, crying, flailing around flinging blood everywhere.  I don't get that type of reaction.

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Roadmaster (06-12-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> I disagree with number 5, they will flee at real danger, or what we call runners from responsibility. The best way for women to spot a potential boy friend as being one in the beginning. First look at his job History. These are the type of people who are never satisfied. They can land a dream job but the happiness doesn't last long. They will talk themselves out of a job and it's always the people around them, it's never their fault. Meet his family, they can only put up a show for so long. They love to listen to themselves talk, love to ask for your opinion but will cut it down or use that to blame you. If a co worker or stranger says the same, they will praise that person, knowing you said the same. Most of them are not good with money. One guy was complaining his girlfriend never paid the bills on time. When you got to the bottom of it, it was him buying things knowing she wouldn't have the funds to do so. So he would go around and tell his friends the few he had, she messed up his credit. Last but not least see if his mom is nice, see how he treats her. If he will be disrespectful to her, he will treat you the same in time. No marriage is perfect but take time to make sure he is not a sociopath.


I have an interesting story to tell about that actually. - grin -

I decided to take my little sociopath sailing because I wanted to observe her outside of the prevailing social milieu. Well the trip was a disaster. First we lost the shear pin on the motor so we had to go back to the harbor and get it fixed because we didn't have a spare. Then the guy who fixed the motor didn't tether it back down right and I didn't bother to check cuz I was having such a good time, so we get halfway to the other side of the island in the Isthmus where the choppy waters are and the motor goes overboard. And it happens to be a calm day. So then when we try to call the coast guard for a tow it turns out the only working channel on the radio is Channel 6, so we had to relay through a commercial vessel in Long Beach. By the end of all that I was completely frazzled. But I asked my little sociopath if she was concerned and what she was feeling, and all she said was "you were a dangerous character for a minute". She was pissed that I didn't check the radio before we left.  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## nonsqtr

> Psychopaths are dangerous only if they are on the other side of the law. They are excellent hit men, mass murderers, and people don't see it coming because of their lack of emotion. Many are very charming people. For instance the "Ice man". If he had been on  the right side of the law he would have been a great person. Now Manson and say Dahmer was a sociopath.  There is a big difference between the two.


Psychopathy is slightly different. A sociopath is dangerous in relationships. If you end up in a relationship with a sociopath and you don't know it, you're in for a world of hurt.

----------

darroll (01-19-2021),Northern Rivers (06-12-2017),Roadmaster (06-12-2017)

----------


## JMWinPR

> Psychopathy is slightly different. A sociopath is dangerous in relationships. If you end up in a relationship with a sociopath and you don't know it, you're in for a world of hurt.


According to the symptons given earlier, I was married to one. And yes it was not a lot of fun. The breakup was interesting to say the least. She lost her AA sponsor of 20 yrs because of her actions

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Northern Rivers (06-12-2017)

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## JustPassinThru

> Never have understood ppl who scream and are paralyzed!  Certain "prey" animals act that way as in offering themselves up...


We are neither pure predator nor pure prey.  And we have some of both in our genetic makeup.

Ever wonder why cows or deer or other grazing animals prefer to be in herds?  Instead of scattering in dangerous circumstances?  It's survival.  No, a deer can't fight a cougar very well.  Not even ten of them.  But...a cougar kills to eat.  If he comes on a herd of ten deer, he's going to take ONE.  Maybe, if the deer aren't all faster than the cougar.

That's a one-in-ten chance, with the slowest going to the cat.  And once the cat has taken the deer, he'll eat it for a week.

So...the odds of survival are MUCH better than if a lone-deer finds a mountain lion.  Survival.

Why do animals freeze?  To hope the risk goes away.  A third option to fight-or-flight; freeze and blend into the background.  For many predators, it can work.

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JMWinPR (06-12-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> According to the symptons given earlier, I was married to one. And yes it was not a lot of fun. The breakup was interesting to say the least. She lost her AA sponsor of 20 yrs because of her actions


You're just finding out right now by reading this thread? Yikes.

Can I ask you something? What do you think she wanted from you, during your marriage?

----------


## nonsqtr

> I disagree with number 5, they will flee at real danger, or what we call runners from responsibility. The best way for women to spot a potential boy friend as being one in the beginning. First look at his job History. These are the type of people who are never satisfied. They can land a dream job but the happiness doesn't last long. They will talk themselves out of a job and it's always the people around them, it's never their fault. Meet his family, they can only put up a show for so long. They love to listen to themselves talk, love to ask for your opinion but will cut it down or use that to blame you. If a co worker or stranger says the same, they will praise that person, knowing you said the same. Most of them are not good with money. One guy was complaining his girlfriend never paid the bills on time. When you got to the bottom of it, it was him buying things knowing she wouldn't have the funds to do so. So he would go around and tell his friends the few he had, she messed up his credit. Last but not least see if his mom is nice, see how he treats her. If he will be disrespectful to her, he will treat you the same in time. No marriage is perfect but take time to make sure he is not a sociopath.


There's another interesting angle to this too.

A lot of sociopaths become very successful in business.

In business, they get to manipulate people and call it the American dream.

I personally know of a sociopath who manipulated relationships until she found someone who could help her start and run her business. She's very successful, high functioning, you wouldn't guess in a million years there was anything wrong unless you really got to know her for a while.

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JMWinPR (06-12-2017)

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## JMWinPR

> You're just finding out right now by reading this thread? Yikes.
> 
> Can I ask you something? What do you think she wanted from you, during your marriage?


Neither of us wanted anything from the other, we were both self sufficient. I got activated after 911 and had to fill out the SF 86. Easy when you're 20, much harder when your 50. Imagine my surprise when several large gov employees showed up for a talk. She was born in Cuba, but lied on the marriage license about her age. Things went down hill from there!!

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nonsqtr (06-12-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> Neither of us wanted anything from the other, we were both self sufficient. I got activated after 911 and had to fill out the SF 86. Easy when you're 20, much harder when your 50. Imagine my surprise when several large gov employees showed up for a talk. She was born in Cuba, but lied on the marriage license about her age. Things went down hill from there!!


Cuban, eh? Well, maybe this next question will make no sense then. Although it might.

Did you notice anything different about the kissing?

Like it was somehow emotionally detached or something?

----------


## nonsqtr

> Cuban, eh? Well, maybe this next question will make no sense then. Although it might.
> 
> Did you notice anything different about the kissing?
> 
> Like it was somehow emotionally detached or something?


Same question for the ladies by the way.

If you were going with a sociopath did you notice anything different about the kissing?

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## Jen

> Same question for the ladies by the way.
> 
> If you were going with a sociopath did you notice anything different about the kissing?


Yes(regarding the first very horrible person I wrote about).  ..... and the clinical psychologist who said he was a sociopath was a good kisser.
 Dang.  I just remembered the priest I almost dated.........  I think he was a sociopath also.  He talked about controlling his audience  with his voice. Plus, he was in the dating market. And a robotic kisser. Yuck....  Blehhhhhh..........  

There might be more sociopaths out there than we realize........  all the bad kissers? :Sofa:

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darroll (01-19-2021),nonsqtr (06-13-2017)

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## JMWinPR

> Cuban, eh? Well, maybe this next question will make no sense then. Although it might.
> 
> Did you notice anything different about the kissing?
> 
> Like it was somehow emotionally detached or something?


not at all, sex too was great. Age never bothers me, my first wife was older than her. What else did she lie about, that WAS important. Then it was my snoring!!! First wife was hard of hearing. A mutual friend bought a new sailboat, and offered me the old one including the trailer. I wasnt allowed to store it on the property during the winter( we wintered in USVI) the place was vacant. While activated, I advanced to E7 Chief Petty Officer, a big deal in the sea services. She wouldn't come over when I got pinned, it would interfere with her New Years plans

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Jen (06-13-2017),nonsqtr (06-13-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> Yes(regarding the first very horrible person I wrote about).  ..... and the clinical psychologist who said he was a sociopath was a good kisser.
>  Dang.  I just remembered the priest I almost dated.........  I think he was a sociopath also.  He talked about controlling his audience  with his voice. Plus, he was in the dating market. And a robotic kisser. Yuck....  Blehhhhhh..........  
> 
> There might be more sociopaths out there than we realize........  all the bad kissers?


Yeah. "Robotic". That's an interesting way of describing it. Sounds pretty accurate though. "Mechanical". Like whatever is behind it is missing a couple of levels of resolution or something.

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Jen (06-13-2017)

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## nonsqtr

Heh heh - there is one area where sociopath may have an advantage over the rest of us.

If I have an overnight affair (which never happens of course  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  ) typically what happens is:

First I feel guilty for sleeping with a really hot chick and enjoying every minute of it.

Then I get to go home and collect a bucket full of shame from the wife and kids.

Then I get to feel like a lowlife weasel for another... oh... week or two maybe. Y'know.

Sociopaths have none of these problems. They just go about their merry way. lol  :Wink:

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## Swedgin

Fortunately, I do not think that I have met such a person.

I have met (and was pretty good friends with) an ex-con (did some work for the Mafia, which does not exist.).

I know a person whom I am pretty sure "is not all there," but, he is seldom violent, and, if he is...he's not much of a threat, that I can see.

And, I have known plenty of petty criminals.  The worst of whom, I am pretty sure, is an informant (Typically, "Informants" are the LOWEST of the LOW.  They will do all kinds of nasty shit, but, as long as they are betraying their brothers in crime, they get away with it....)

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## nonsqtr

> What do the results of the test I have taken really mean?


Is this a serious question?

It means you've "likely" been previously diagnosed.

And if not you should probably take a trio of tests, the MMPI, PCL-R, and PPI-R.

That way you can figure out where you fit in and what your risk factors are.

----------



----------


## Jen

> You can test yourself.
> 
> There's three standard diagnostic tests, they're called MMPI, PPL,, and PPI.
> 
> They're all administered by a company called Pearson. You can't get the scoring sheets unless you're a professional.
> 
> But you can take the Levenson test online.
> 
> My scores are 2.2 and 2.4, which puts me at about a 60. "Slightly psychotic". lol 
> ...


I got 1.1 and 1.5..............what does that mean?  Where did you get the "60"?

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## nonsqtr

> I got 1.1 and 1.5..............what does that mean?  Where did you get the "60"?


The 60 - it tells you "you are more psychopathic than X% of people tested".

If your numbers are 1-ish, your X is very low.

----------


## Jen

> The 60 - it tells you "you are more psychopathic than X% of people tested".
> 
> If your numbers are 1-ish, your X is very low.


I didn't see a number that corresponds with your 60.  But my numbers were 1-ish.  I already knew that if Empaths exist, I am one.

----------



----------


## Neo

> Is this a serious question?
> 
> It means you've "likely" been previously diagnosed.
> 
> And if not you should probably take a trio of tests, the MMPI, PCL-R, and PPI-R.
> 
> That way you can figure out where you fit in and what your risk factors are.


The results of the test show clearly that I have a  rather obvious detached selfish singularity thinking process.

----------


## nonsqtr

> The results of the test show clearly that I have a  rather obvious detached selfish singularity thinking process.


Oh.

Do you care?

----------


## nonsqtr

I have two pieces of input for y'all.

One is: "never confront a sociopath".




> When people yell at me, I am confused first and foremost. Bursts of strong emotion take me completely by surprise, and it takes a second or two for me to regain my wits. After that brief moment, my brain immediately kicks into high gear to analyze the situation: Why are they yelling? What are they saying? Have I done something deliberately to harm them recently or ever? Have I done something they could indirectly assume as harming them?
> 
> 
> When someone calls me out, manages to look past my charming and pleasant mask and react negatively, it puts me into a very cruel and cold state of mind. It constitutes a threat of the highest order, a threat to my carefully maintained persona, and I treat it as such.
> 
> 
> If I decide it is my best interest to passively accept whatever retribution/apology they demand, I do so with the utmost affected sincerity. If I can ignore it, I do, and their subsequent nagging is a mere minor irritation. In the rare occasion that continued contact/antagonizing on their part could compromise my peace, I strike back. I use everything I've learned about their insecurities, their weaknesses, their fears, and I break them. I hurt them so deeply and thoroughly that they are either frightened away entirely or too cowed to ever attack me again. I take great, great pleasure in doing so--oftentimes, to preserve my peaceful existence in the public eye, I have to hold back. It feels good to break others. Very good.

----------


## nonsqtr

The second piece of input is a bit of a joke actually, but just in case there's any "really adventurous" guys here, here's a thought.

The buildup in a relationship with a sociopathic female, is just about the sweetest thing you'll ever experience in your life.

And, sociopathic females are mostly "very willing", sexually speaking. (They're manipulating you with that, yes?)

Therefore - if you're an enterprising alpha male who doesn't particularly value long term emotional relationships, you can adopt an "out-psycho the psychos" strategy.

What you do is, you seek out the sociopaths and then dump 'em just when they start to manipulate you.

That way you're always on the ascending part of the curve.

Is there a risk element in this strategy? Hell yes!

But it will get you laid a lot, and most of the women will be world-class hot.  :Smiley ROFLMAO: 


ps I don't think this strategy would work for the chicks.  :Wink:

----------


## Neo

> Oh.
> 
> Do you care?


Not a lot.


You can play hardball with the best of them! You know what you want and are not afraid to go for it – even if it means bending the rules occasionally and putting a few noses out of joint on the way. Nothing fazes you. You are decisive, self-confident and pretty much up for anything. You are a ‘means-to-an-end’ person. For you, it’s not necessarily a matter of right or wrong, but of what gets the job done. ‘Bring it on’ is your mantra, but to help those around you keep their heads, you should learn some tricks to help you temper your self-satisfying tendencies.




I've always known I am special, I've felt different all my life to other guys, years ago I was super charged, age has slightly slowed me down, but...when I want I can still switch the power on.

----------


## nonsqtr

> Not a lot.
> 
> 
> You can play hardball with the best of them! You know what you want and are not afraid to go for it – even if it means bending the rules occasionally and putting a few noses out of joint on the way. Nothing fazes you. You are decisive, self-confident and pretty much up for anything. You are a ‘means-to-an-end’ person. For you, it’s not necessarily a matter of right or wrong, but of what gets the job done. ‘Bring it on’ is your mantra, but to help those around you keep their heads, you should learn some tricks to help you temper your self-satisfying tendencies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've always known I am special, I've felt different all my life to other guys, years ago I was super charged, age has slightly slowed me down, but...when I want I can still switch the power on.


 :Smile: 

There's another thing that's been crossing my radar screen, which is that the perception of music is quite different in sociopaths.

Music is highly emotional, for the most part.

----------


## nonsqtr

> age has slightly slowed me down, but...when I want I can still switch the power on.


Can I ask you about this? How does it work for you, this process of "turning it on"? What drives it, is it anger or annoyance or boredom or what is it that motivates you to "turn it on"?

----------


## Roadmaster

I refuse to take test because they always show me as liberal and you know darn well I am not one, complete opposite.  Those test always qualify me as a psychopath. I had no respect for the man they called the Iceman, I saw him as weak. What really stuck out was he wasn't worried about all the lives he took and the torture he inflicted on his victims, he was more worried about if people thought he was anti homosexual. Funny that would bother him and didn't want to offend them while some of his victims were bitten and killed by rats in caves but didn't care how their family felt. A lot of us have weaknesses, like don't try and hurt an innocent child around me. That is a good weakness.

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## nonsqtr

> Emotions lead to mistakes.


That's an interesting way of looking at it. That word "mistake", it would probably be a narrow perception of the results for most of us. I can certainly understand the point of view and the reference frame, and I can see how it comes out looking at tiny bit Machiavellian and a tiny bit narcissistic. 

Can I ask you something? You were talking about limits like not hurting a small child next to you. What is your understanding of "boundaries"? Do you understand the concept of "fluid boundaries" and does it have any meaning for you?

----------


## nonsqtr

> Lol I took enough classes I don't even want to see another book on this. But I will answer by experience and not the book.
> 
> A  sociopath loves to lie and if you believe their lies they will keep lying. If they get caught it doesn't bother them, they will either blame you for them having to lie or make up more lies to convince you, you were wrong. Have you even been out somewhere and you knew the person, he or she is charming to everyone, people like them even strangers. They go out of their way for approval but are complete asshole to people who love them, even their children. The biggest reason they do this is to gain your trust while they blame everything on their family. An example: He will go into the house throw a temper, mess the house up and then tell everyone she is lazy and never cleans house. Drag a person into a relationship wanting them to think they are helpless or going through a rough time but in secret they want to control your every move. They love to deceive the strong and gets a high doing it but also loves to cut down the weak. These people love no one but themselves and are not happy unless they are hurting their family while walking out smiling knowing they are.
> 
> If you meet someone like this or has traits, run. 
> 
>  Psychopaths, people think they are more dangerous but I disagree unless they go wrong. These are the type of people you want to fly fighter jets or take jobs that are dangerous. They hold their composer and are not very emotional. They do well under pressure. Graphic scenes really don't bother them, but the books will tell you a sociopath has this trait, wrong when things go bad they will flee or say I need another family it's them not me.
> 
> 
> ...


Here's another question.

How do you deal with the people who know who and what you are?

So in other words even if your world is divided into victims and competitors there's still a third category at any given time.

Do you have a strategy in relation to people like that? Are you threatened by people like that? Is it possible to people like that could become your friends? Among friends in general what is the relative position of other sociopaths?

----------


## Roadmaster

> Here's another question.
> 
> How do you deal with the people who know who and what you are?
> 
> So in other words even if your world is divided into victims and competitors there's still a third category at any given time.
> 
> Do you have a strategy in relation to people like that? Are you threatened by people like that? Is it possible to people like that could become your friends? Among friends in general what is the relative position of other sociopaths?


They know me and yes I admit I have traits of a psychopath, not a sociopath. I hate lies. I don't react to situations as others do. In other words I don't scare easy. I worry more about the ones who think I don't care. It's hard for me to show certain emotions. I never deceive others and am a very honest person. I can't help I can't show how I feel inside.

----------

darroll (01-19-2021),nonsqtr (06-16-2017)

----------


## nonsqtr

> They know me and yes I admit I have traits of a psychopath, not a sociopath. I hate lies. I don't react to situations as others do. In other words I don't scare easy. I worry more about the ones who think I don't care. It's hard for me to show certain emotions. I never deceive others and am a very honest person. I can't help I can't show how I feel inside.


"Certain" emotions? Any particular ones? For any particular reason?

The statement: I "worry" (meaning?) more about the ones who think "I don't care".

Meaning you really do care, you just can't display your feelings.

Are you aware that there is a range of "affective disorders" that are exactly as you describe? They're not psychopathy, you wouldn't get that diagnosis from a competent professional, if that's the case.

A person I knew had a great deal of trouble expressing romantic feelings. Literally, she would open her mouth and it would take 8 to 10 seconds for anything to come out, and she was working really hard to get it out like laboring uphill. Do you experience something like that?

----------


## Neo

> Can I ask you about this? How does it work for you, this process of "turning it on"? What drives it, is it anger or annoyance or boredom or what is it that motivates you to "turn it on"?


my reactions to certain events are different to a normal person, something trivial to you would seem a big thing to me, the slightest slight from someone would instantly alert me to war footing, payback would be swift, or if I felt like making someone my pet hate project it would be ongoing to the point of aggression.

----------

nonsqtr (06-16-2017)

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## nonsqtr

lol - we just saw some great t-shirts over in Haight-Ashbury. The one was a ladies tank top that said "High Functioning Sociopath". Another one was a plain white t that said "I (heart) My Sociopath". The best one though, was a his & hers pair, the one said "Sociopath" with an arrow pointing to the right, and the other one said "Borderline" with an arrow pointing to the left.  :Wink:

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## Neo

> lol - we just saw some great t-shirts over in Haight-Ashbury. The one was a ladies tank top that said "High Functioning Sociopath". Another one was a plain white t that said "I (heart) My Sociopath". The best one though, was a his & hers pair, the one said "Sociopath" with an arrow pointing to the right, and the other one said "Borderline" with an arrow pointing to the left.



How a sociopath sees things.

Here is an example of how I do things; The other day I had just walked to a large park with my 2 Staffordshire bull terriers, they were still on a joint lead walking to the side of me, I always keep them on a lead until I'm right into the park.
Ahead of me were 2 large Labrador type dogs off lead, they were heading our way, both dogs were curious, their owner did not call them or make any attempt to stop them heading towards us.
They both headed to my dogs and and I told my dogs to heel, (close) the biggest dog sniffed  at my bitch but made his attention to my boy dog, to which he stood over him and his hairs on his back stood out, he lunged at my boy and I kicked the dog away, my boy dog also lunged at him aggressively.
The owners of the dogs were close now so I said in a loud voice "why didn't you call your dogs?"
 No answer was forthcoming....so I said "it appears your dog wants a fight"    " if you want I'll let my boy off the lead and they can fight all they want?" 
To this they put the dogs on leads and vacated the area very quickly.

I made 2 assumptions from the encounter, the couple were stupid and deserved an education on the finer points of dog walking, and the other point I made was if you see me with my dogs again they will get the fuck out, or put their dogs on a lead before I have to ruin their day.

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## nonsqtr

> I worry more about the ones who think I don't care. It's hard for me to show certain emotions. I never deceive others and am a very honest person. I can't help I can't show how I feel inside.


  @roadmaster this is so important I feel the need to try again. I don't mean to pry but I wonder if I could ask you about this.

The question is, what feelings and why? What's so hard about showing them?

Please help me understand this.

Give me a f'r-instance.

Like, I dunno... an obvious one... romantic feelings? Or what other kinds of feelings? Give me an idea of the "range" of feelings you're talking about.

And, you say "some" feelings, implying there are others that are easier. What is it that makes these particular ones difficult? Is it something you feel or experience consciously? Or is it difficult at some kind of deeper subconscious level?

This is a vital piece of information for me, I hope I'm not being too personal.

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## nonsqtr

Okay, well, maybe you can tackle this question Tom, if you feel like it.

Here's the reason I'm asking.

The vernacular has it that sociopaths can't empathize. But this is actually grossly inaccurate, the truth isn't being communicated in that concept.

Sociopaths are actually exceptionally talented at reading people, they actually read other people's feelings really well. The "way" they read them may be a little unusual, that's all.

The journals are telling me that sociopaths directly experience anger, jealousy, envy, and that range of emotions. However in other ways there is a "paucity of affect", and it reflects itself most noticeably in social areas.

Having had some experience with a sociopath I read this a particular way. There is a specific part of the emotional spectrum that's missing. It's not anything generalized like empathy, it's very specific. (That's my theory anyway).

It has to do with something called normative morality. It's actually very complex biologically it covers a broad spectrum of behaviors. But basically normative morality is that portion which is common to all human beings, not dependent on group or membership. Part of it is very basic in evolution, like the revulsion we feel when we see blood being spilt in front of us. And part of it is considerably more sophisticated, for instance the understanding of relationship boundaries requires both affect and a transactional analysis of the partners state of mind in real time.

There is a part of normative morality that's organized at a very early level, it has to do with fear, and behaviorally it has to do with fight or flight decisions. There is also a part that "feels" for another human being in distress.

All this business with the dopamine and serotonin reflects itself mainly in the impulsiveness and the peculiarities in switching behavior on and off.

But the primary deficit in terms of relationships is the idea that the normative morality isn't working quite right, the information isn't getting from the part that understands to the part that cares.

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## Neo

Rules do not apply to me, I've never learned from my mistakes, rarely do I care about other people, I've always looked after myself first, I hate sharing, my temper when I was a Young man was terrible.
In my 20s I mastered karate, it gave me discipline, I found my athleticism and skill made me superior to people, I've never hurt people for the sake of it, but knowing I could have gave me an advantage for getting my own way.

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nonsqtr (06-21-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> Rules do not apply to me, I've never learned from my mistakes, rarely do I care about other people, I've always looked after myself first, I hate sharing, my temper when I was a Young man was terrible.
> In my 20s I mastered karate, it gave me discipline, I found my athleticism and skill made me superior to people, I've never hurt people for the sake of it, but knowing I could have gave me an advantage for getting my own way.


Thank you Tom. This is a difficult topic, very personal. We just finished a pretty thorough assessment for my nine-year-old daughter. She has moderate selfishness and moderate passive aggressive anger (but only mild active anger at this point). Trying to understand the patterns of behavior is difficult for an outsider, she wants things her own way so she gets impatient and frustrated and eventually "angry", and like you she'll find ways of controlling situations and people. I would like to keep her away from reflexive anger as much as possible, does self righteous anger does give one a feeling of strength and power but the way it plays out in social settings is sometimes dangerous.

I don't know how this works for you, as a man you probably don't get very much retaliation. However among females there is a consistent pattern of retaliation, frequently leading to abuse (physical and emotional and otherwise).

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## nonsqtr

> Rules do not apply to me, I've never learned from my mistakes, rarely do I care about other people, I've always looked after myself first, I hate sharing, my temper when I was a Young man was terrible.
> In my 20s I mastered karate, it gave me discipline, I found my athleticism and skill made me superior to people, I've never hurt people for the sake of it, but knowing I could have gave me an advantage for getting my own way.


Tom, can I ask you one more thing?

What is your experience of "boredom"?

The literature tells me you need greater stimulation to get emotional input.

The specific question is does boredom make you angry? Or does it simply make you "uneasy"? Or let me see, what's the right way to ask this... what happens when you get sufficiently bored for long enough? What do you feel, and how do you react?

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## QuaseMarco

I once met Charlie Crist.

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## Neo

> Tom, can I ask you one more thing?
> 
> What is your experience of "boredom"?
> 
> The literature tells me you need greater stimulation to get emotional input.
> 
> The specific question is does boredom make you angry? Or does it simply make you "uneasy"? Or let me see, what's the right way to ask this... what happens when you get sufficiently bored for long enough? What do you feel, and how do you react?



Let me me tell you first that I have tunnel vision, when I take something to task everything else is secondary, the term "tenacity of purpose" is very much so in my actions.
Boredom...no, I am naturally hyper, I have a fast metabolism, if in a situation that I'm stifled or inactive I switch off, it's a situation I cannot control so I let it ride, it will not upset me, I resign myself to the situation but my mind is on other things.

Another thing that other people have commented on about me is my steadfast refusal to conform to a preferred behaviour, to me it's natural what I do.

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nonsqtr (06-22-2017)

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## nonsqtr

Thank you Tom, I greatly appreciate your willingness to answer these personal questions. You're a gentleman and a scholar.  :Yo2:

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## Neo

> Thank you Tom, I greatly appreciate your willingness to answer these personal questions. You're a gentleman and a scholar.



Nonsense!  I'm neither of those two things.

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nonsqtr (06-23-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> Nonsense!  I'm neither of those two things.


Well, but this (below) is vital information.




> Let me me tell you first that I have tunnel vision, when I take something to task everything else is secondary, the term "tenacity of purpose" is very much so in my actions.
> Boredom...no, I am naturally hyper, I have a fast metabolism, if in a situation that I'm stifled or inactive I switch off, it's a situation I cannot control so I let it ride, it will not upset me, I resign myself to the situation but my mind is on other things.


I will briefly explain. I happen to know the behavior of this one female sociopath "very well" ("intimately", you might say, cough). And yet, not so well. Lately, I have seen in my 9-year-old daughter, behaviors that exactly mirror my sociopathic friend's ("in miniature" to be sure, but nevertheless directly and instinctually identifiable). And, these behaviors are "subtle", even though they sometimes express themselves in dramatic ways. They're not necessarily easy to understand, when you're looking at something there's always something behind it and it's not always clear what it is. Wifey is an MD but she can't treat family for ethical reasons, so we brought in a family friend to assess our daughter, and it turns out she's "at moderate risk for conduct disorder", and we seem to have caught it just in time, age 9 is at the outer end of the range where it can be addressed behaviorally. 

So this word "boredom", it's very important. It's all over the literature. Someone a long time ago, said that sociopaths and psychopaths are "easily bored", and for some reason that vocabulary persisted - but it's not the truth, it's an inaccurate description of what's actually happening. As you yourself have just confirmed. What's actually happening, is more along the lines of "rapid switching and locking" of attention, as a matter of fact it has many elements in common with some of the behaviors you see in certain types of ADHD.

I have some experience with a drug called Cylert, when I took it it created almost the identical experience you describe. My attention was "focused like a laser", whatever I was paying attention to became my entire world, I had "tunnel vision" that way, and other things that happened didn't necessarily distract me very much. I see this exact same thing in my daughter too, she has a very interesting behavior where she'll pick up the guitar, play a few very intense notes, put it down and pick up the violin and play some intense notes, seem to get bored and fidget around a little, and pick up the guitar again. Once when this happened, I tried to take the guitar out of her hands (benignly, not because I was trying to punish her or anything), and she got very aggressive, fierce almost. Even though she had just picked it up seconds earlier, and even though she seemed more interested in the violin than the guitar. It was a "reflexive" reaction, it wasn't because she was mad at me or anything. It's just her little brain trying to form, her neurons are starting to connect and "behavior" comes out of her when they do. 

Her mind is also "fast", as you say yours is. She is naturally hyper, she thinks about twice the speed I do, and she doesn't have to "think about stuff" like I do, she's very quick on the draw.

It's great that you mentioned martial arts, we got her started on that too (thanks to a suggestion from another member of this board), and it really seems to help. As you say, it's discipline, and focus, and confidence. All very helpful. She's already a little rascal, but I want her to be able to beat up boys if she has to, but not just "because she can". lol  :Wink:

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## Old Tex

I've watched at least 2 videos of Maxine Waters. Does that count?

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nonsqtr (06-24-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> I've watched at least 2 videos of Maxine Waters. Does that count?


Well, liberal stupidity by itself generally doesn't count.

You have to meet the diagnostic criteria, so for example if you can prove she was stealing stuff at age 15, that counts. If you can prove she has a history of disrespecting other peoples rights or property, that probably counts. I'm not sure if impulsive behavior would be sufficient, there's lots of other conditions with that symptom. 

I actually think you'd probably have a better chance going after her for Alzheimer's. lol  :Wink:

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## Neo

My selfishness..   I never give to charities, I never give to beggars, people down on their luck I have no sympathy.
At  19 I got married, nobody can tell me about poverty, when I tied the knot I earned 54p an hour... i survived, if I can survive taking care of a mother and child any beggar or someone down on his luck has it easy.

Boredom... yes I suffer from it badly.. so bad I never stayed in the house at all after finishing work.. sports, pubs, chasing women, that's been my life since my early 20s.
before you judge me you have to walk 30 years in my moccasins!!

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## nonsqtr

> My selfishness..   I never give to charities, I never give to beggars, people down on their luck I have no sympathy.
> At  19 I got married, nobody can tell me about poverty, when I tied the knot I earned 54p an hour... i survived, if I can survive taking care of a mother and child any beggar or someone down on his luck has it easy.
> 
> Boredom... yes I suffer from it badly.. so bad I never stayed in the house at all after finishing work.. sports, pubs, chasing women, that's been my life since my early 20s.
> before you judge me you have to walk 30 years in my moccasins!!


Did you do the requisite behaviors at age 15?

You're supposed to have either been incarcerated (by then), abused substances, abused animals, lit fires, harmed siblings or family members, abused someone sexually, or repeatedly told authority figures to go shag off.

(I have 4 of the 7, lol)

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## Dan40

> This is a serious question.
> 
> And I think it's probably directed at those of you who know what is sociopath actually is.
> 
> The question is have you ever actually met one?
> 
> I'm 57 years old, and not being a forensic psychologist or anything, I'm pretty sure I just met my first real live sociopath.
> 
> This one is a mild case. Because the person is still running around (ie not institutionalized).
> ...


There are 3 or 4 on this forum but the mods say I can't 'out' them.
 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## Dan40

> I've watched at least 2 videos of Maxine Waters. Does that count?


That is extra and bonus credit.  And you're crazy for doing it.  What she has must be contagious.

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nonsqtr (06-25-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> There are 3 or 4 on this forum but the mods say I can't 'out' them.


Yeah I'm not interested in outing anyone. If someone wants to speak voluntarily that's fine, but I understand this can be very private stuff. Besides which it's protected medical information under the HIPAA laws, so everything we're talking about here is strictly informal. 

I'm sharing some of my own personal life in the way of encouraging others to do the same, because I believe mental health is like any other health and there shouldn't be a stigma attached to it.

Plus the technology is now such that many of these mysterious issues can actually be addressed and maybe even cured in future generations. Every single one of the diagnostic categories in the DSM has genetic components. Every one, without exception.

ADHD is very common. Depression is very common. Bipolar disorder is very common. All these things share many similarities at the chemical level, with the cluster B personalities. 

I actually think the main reason there's not more open discussion is because there's so much ignorance in the popular milieu, there's a lot of pop science and pop psychology, and old outdated models that tend to scare people.

I am currently 57 years old, and I just learned two weeks ago through a completely random set of circumstances, that I actually qualified for a clinical diagnosis of Conduct Disorder when I was 15 years old. But when I was 15 years old there was no such thing as conduct disorder, they used to call it juvenile delinquency and if it got bad enough they'd send the kids to jail. These days it's a little better, only the boys go to jail (the girls end up in treatment).  :Wink:

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## nonsqtr

> Boredom... yes I suffer from it badly.. so bad I never stayed in the house at all after finishing work.. sports, pubs, chasing women, that's been my life since my early 20s.


I've been thinking about this. I'm "opining" that the boredom is a downstream effect. Here's my theory (and please correct me if I'm wrong). 

You are "sensation-seeking". It's not that you're "exactly" bored, because boredom is kind of this "ho-hum, what shall I do next" feeling, it's almost like a depression of sorts.

But you know what you want to do next - as you say, you seek pubs, women, sports.... "sensation". You seek these things because it takes more to stimulate you. You need more sensation to get the same level of affect that others do. This is also why you're "intense" in relationships (especially the early phase) - amirite?

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## Neo

> Did you do the requisite behaviors at age 15?
> 
> You're supposed to have either been incarcerated (by then), abused substances, abused animals, lit fires, harmed siblings or family members, abused someone sexually, or repeatedly told authority figures to go shag off.
> 
> (I have 4 of the 7, lol)



Ahhhh.  I see where you are going with this.

My older brother was the template for me to learn from, he was everything I tried to avoid being and turning into, he and I are an exactly alike in behaviour, but....I am more clever than he is, he got caught doing stuff, from his experiences with the cops and our parents I learned how to circumnavigate the authorities and judicial process.
If you like I learned how to keep under the radar, I've avoided all the usual mess hyper active individuals like myself get into.
Drugs I've tried, I couldnt understand the need for them so I've never become a user.
Alcohol I do like, but I am a social drinker and I know when to stop.
Sex...yes, when I can get it.
Im straight as an arrow, I dislike homosexuals, I consider them weak minded and inconsequential.
When I have had dealings with the police I make it as hard as I can for them, I've never admitted doing a single thing in my life, my motto is to deny.

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## Dan40

> Yeah I'm not interested in outing anyone. If someone wants to speak voluntarily that's fine, but I understand this can be very private stuff. Besides which it's protected medical information under the HIPAA laws, so everything we're talking about here is strictly informal. 
> 
> I'm sharing some of my own personal life in the way of encouraging others to do the same, because I believe mental health is like any other health and there shouldn't be a stigma attached to it.
> 
> Plus the technology is now such that many of these mysterious issues can actually be addressed and maybe even cured in future generations. Every single one of the diagnostic categories in the DSM has genetic components. Every one, without exception.
> 
> ADHD is very common. Depression is very common. Bipolar disorder is very common. All these things share many similarities at the chemical level, with the cluster B personalities. 
> 
> I actually think the main reason there's not more open discussion is because there's so much ignorance in the popular milieu, there's a lot of pop science and pop psychology, and old outdated models that tend to scare people.
> ...


It is possible that you might have been just a bit more serious than me in this thread.

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## Neo

> It is possible that you might have been just a bit more serious than me in this thread.


 Nonsqtr is correct in his last post, a person such as myself when younger wasn't diagnosed with this disorder, at school I had the cane or the strap, used to try to knock the disruptiveness out of me.
Also the use of detention, staying after school writing out page after page of; "I must not leave chewing gum on class chairs" or whatever my angst was of the day.
I had detention most days of my school life, the cane ...most weeks...or the dap off a form teacher (sole of a slipper)
Most of the days of lessons I hated I was sent out of class and told to wait outside the class door in the hall, a particular nasty shitty teacher made me stand in the middle of the school yard on a summer day.
In my final 2 years of school the form teachers relaxed around me as long as I did what I wanted without disrupting those around me, through the carrot and the stick so to speak I had learned to tone it down.
After school I changed out of my schoool uniform had my family dinner, then out...the world was my oyster, you can possibly guess at what I got up to, but only a few on here would have an idea.

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## nonsqtr

> It is possible that you might have been just a bit more serious than me in this thread.


Of course. It's a serious thing when you have an at-risk kid. It's also serious when society considers you dangerous and you can't really figure out why. 

I didn't mean any disrespect. It's hard enough talking about this stuff, I didn't want to make people paranoid or anything.

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## Dan40

> Of course. It's a serious thing when you have an at-risk kid. It's also serious when society considers you dangerous and you can't really figure out why. 
> 
> Not paranoid, don't CARE. I didn't mean any disrespect. It's hard enough talking about this stuff, I didn't want to make people paranoid or anything.

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nonsqtr (06-25-2017)

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## Neo

> Of course. It's a serious thing when you have an at-risk kid. It's also serious when society considers you dangerous and you can't really figure out why. 
> 
> I didn't mean any disrespect. It's hard enough talking about this stuff, I didn't want to make people paranoid or anything.


I'm not paranoid, it's good talking about things, it's a therapy in itself.
Besides, we are only scratching the surface of this disorder, society can't understand it unless more of mental issues are talked about without the stigma surrounding it?

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nonsqtr (06-26-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> Besides, we are only scratching the surface of this disorder, society can't understand it unless more of mental issues are talked about without the stigma surrounding it?


Agreed. A lot of the stigma has to do with Hollywood, probably. What is scary is that public school nurses here in CA are allowed to administer drugs to children without a doctor being present (or even being consulted). What's even worse is that social workers are allowed to remove children from their parents without understanding either. (And the cops are required by law to do their bidding).

Having been in a brief relationship with a sociopath, I can say that "most" of the problem was on my side, in terms of expectations and ignorance. The whole idea of "violating social norms" presents itself in some difficult situations. And in some more humorous situations too. What was most difficult to adjust to though, was the idea of "don't bother", in other words, there are certain behaviors that I would use with a "normal person" that would invariably gain me a well-known emotional reaction, but they simply don't work with a sociopath. The idea of "displaying emotion to elicit a reaction" results in many unexpected reactions (and sometimes no reaction at all, which can also be difficult). The idea of "reaching out emotionally" when someone appears to be in distress, also doesn't work. (In fact sometimes it becomes downright annoying, apparently).

This is a "learning curve", for someone who's been used to something else, yes? 

There is one dangerous aspect of this, that I should mention though, and it particularly pertain to sociopathic women probably. (I don't know how it might roll out for you, with the martial arts and all it doesn't sound like it would be a problem for you). But sociopathic women are going to elicit a lot of anger from "normals". This puts them at great risk, in terms of getting clobbered. "Normal" men can become quite violent on short notice, and with a woman who fails to respond emotionally or responds in a poorly understood manner, this becomes "very risky behavior". I read a stat that said something like 80% of sociopathic women have been abused, and I think that's why. The person I was involved with, told me she was beaten up multiple times.

And I think you know the problem there, yes? The problem is, the sociopath will not "learn" from such an experience. If someone's out of line, and you want to "teach them a lesson", a good clobbering might work on a "normie", but it won't work at all on a sociopath. The aversive conditioning isn't going to work on such a person "at all", right? 

So like... it's little stuff. It's stuff we're not used to. Like for instance the impulsive stuff, like maybe flirting with someone across the room in the middle of a dinner date. And it's also bigger stuff, like not being able (or willing) to account for certain kinds of behavior.

I think it is certainly true that in some relationships, stuff like this could be considered "toxic", the result being that you end up with a victim. (Or someone who perceives themselves as a victim, anyway). But I think even in relationships where such behavior is reasonably well understood, it's still "difficult", it results in anger because it clashes with the "normative morality" that's biologically wired in to "most" human beings. At some level the divergent behavior becomes "offensive", which results in "anger", and then the course of the relationship goes whichever way that's handled.

I dunno, I'd be most curious to know how this looks from your perspective.  :Smile:

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## Dan40

> Of course. It's a serious thing when you have an at-risk kid. It's also serious when society considers you dangerous and you can't really figure out why. 
> 
> I didn't mean any disrespect. It's hard enough talking about this stuff, I didn't want to make people paranoid or anything.


Not paranoid, don't CARE. 

Needed to repair previous post.

Compulsive!

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## nonsqtr

> Not paranoid, don't CARE. 
> 
> Needed to repair previous post.
> 
> Compulsive!


lol - it's ok, we got it, settle down.  :Wink:  

Speaking of compulsive (yuk), I just heard on the TV that some weasel lawyer is going after the makers of Abilify because it causes gambling problems. The commercial is really funny, it goes "if you or a loved one suffered a significant financial loss from taking this medication, call us now". 

That's going to be such a hoot, the defense is going to make everyone take MRI's to ensure they weren't compulsive to begin with.  :Smile:

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## Dan40

> lol - it's ok, we got it, settle down.  
> 
> Speaking of compulsive (yuk), I just heard on the TV that some weasel lawyer is going after the makers of Abilify because it causes gambling problems. The commercial is really funny, it goes "if you or a loved one suffered a significant financial loss from taking this medication, call us now". 
> 
> That's going to be such a hoot, the defense is going to make everyone take MRI's to ensure they weren't compulsive to begin with.


MRI's show how someone used to be?

I dint no dat.

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## nonsqtr

> MRI's show how someone used to be?


Well, they show how you are when you're "not" taking the drug.




> I dint no dat.


Apparently there's no claim of "persistent" gambling, no brain damage or anything like that.

----------


## nonsqtr

I'll just toss this on the table here, and those of you who know more than I do can correct me as needed.

The moral of this story is "why a sociopathic parent has a special place in society". Here's how the story goes:

At a very young age, anyone with the gene will begin to notice they're "different". If they're Type II in particular, they'll notice about age 9 or 10 that they're not scared like the other kids are. That's the very first thing that happens in the pathic brain, is the serotonin synapses in the amygdala don't connect properly and work properly (because of mutations on the SCL6A4 gene), and the result is that the child feels no fear. (Or, let's say, "little" fear - the "threshold" for an equivalent experience of fear is much higher). 

Now - "fear" is actually a complex set of emotions. There's life-threatening fear like running away from a predator or something, but there's also intimidation (like, by a teacher let's say), there's also rejection, there's also insecurity and confusion..... there are "nuances" of fear, and there is also a "hierarchy" of fear. There is also the stuff "underlying" fear, which I call "normative morality", and that for example, includes the revulsion you might feel when you see a cat getting run over in the middle of the street. There are elements of "fear" in that experience, because, at a certain level there is empathy with the cat. 

So because the sociopath isn't intimidated and feels no fear, she'll tell the teacher to go f*ck off if she doesn't like what she's being told, and that kind of acting out is called Conduct Disorder (or its less offensive cousin Oppositional Defiant Disorder), and it typically occurs anywhere between age 10 and age 15.

By age 15 most sociopathic kids have learned "coping mechanisms", they've learned just how far they can go without getting in trouble. The Conduct Disorder may represent a trail-and-error phase where they're learning that. But they're still who they are, and they're still human beings, so there may be plenty of fights with other kids, there may be some animal abuse, there may be some fire-starting or other forms of vandalism, maybe some thievery... there is good evidence the behavior traces backwards, so for instance one of the diagnostic questions for prisoners is did you ever steal from someone "while" you were beating them up.

However also during this period, there is an interesting psychology where some of these kids start feeling "superior" to others, because they don't feel as much fear. The smarter among these kids realize they can go places where the other kids can't go, and it allows them to handle and perform in situations where they other kids can't. They can "keep their cool" much better than anyone else. And this psychology is what trends into narcissism later on, and apparently there is "at least a little" of this element in just about every psychopath or sociopath.

So then, at age 15, the vmPFC (frontal lobe) tries to connect with the broken amygdala. Normally this would be the age where teenagers are first exploring "relationships", and all that information is supposed to be used to help form the developing connections in this "social and moral" area of the brain. Social interactions have everything to do with fear, because the negative reinforcement we get from others is based in fear. (Mostly it's the "anticipated consequences", that kind of thing). But the sociopath can not process fear, and must find alternate coping mechanisms. So she learns to "manipulate", to create visible emotional outcomes in others.

The normal effect of the vmPFC on the amygdala is mostly inhibitory. Extreme emotional displays are usually "inhibited" by the social milieu, it is considered socially acceptable (and expected) to retain one's composure and "keep one's cool" and maintain a sense of decorum, and therefore extreme displays of emotion are frowned upon. A lot of our behavior is literally "conditioned out" by society. However the sociopath is incapable of such conditioning, because the pathway between the vmPFC and the amygdala is broken (it can never form correctly, because the amygdala itself is broken). So then what happens at age 15, is the sociopath begins to learn some of the more sophisticated methods of navigating the social milieu while still getting what she wants - and remember that the pathic brain has "paucity of affect" so the person will likely be a sensation-seeker (including specifically sex), and the person feels no fear so she is willing to engage in "risky behavior" and behavior that's beyond the boundaries of others.

And yet, by age 17 or 18 the sociopath typically has a distinctly (and measurably) negative component in the self-image. She is jealous of others, at the same time she's successful in controlling them. It takes more stimulation to get her to "feel" the same as others, so she has to go to extremes, and some people get tired of that so they "give up", while others never get tired of it and they keep seeking more sensation and more risk. She justifies her existence with her continuing (and increasingly powerful) ability to manipulate others, and she doesn't attach to people or relationships, so typically her pattern is she'll manipulate someone long enough to get what she wants, then drop them like a rock and walk away, and find someone or something else to engage her interest or help her with the next phase of her plan.

There is some very interesting psychology in the "walking away". A sociopath derives pleasure from power, and wants to be the cool calm nonchalant ("superior") individual when dealing with ex's. Typically there is a wall to prevent the ex from "discovering" what she really is, and the nature of that wall is very revealing about the psychology of sociopathy. For instance, one of the popular constructions is the privacy of romantic feelings, the sociopath will "hide behind" the privacy and usually in empathic people this creates the perception that "something must have happened" (like some abuse or something), and therefore the tendency will be to "respect" that boundary and even play to it. However the reality is that there are no romantic feelings, the whole construction is there to protect the perception of feelings, not the feelings themselves. That kind of thing - it gets real interesting.

Another interesting thing is that sociopaths will frequently display emotional distress during breakups, but it's not the ordinary emotional pain that you and I feel when we break up with someone we've loved - for normies, that experience includes confusion, grief, guilt, insecurity, and much more - but the sociopath is crying because she's lost a toy, not because she's lost a friend. She's lost a source of amusement, and those are few and far between in this world. Someone "looking" at her crying would think she's experiencing emotional pain over the breakup, but she's not - she's upset that now she's going to have to start all over again and push the rock up the hill again.

This is fascinating stuff, you can learn an amazing amount about human beings by studying sociopaths. The thing that I've observed very clearly up close and personal in a sociopath is the concept that "the value system adjusts accordingly". This is an absolutely fascinating and mind-boggling development to watch, the belief system that takes you from "I don't feel any fear" to "there's no such thing as altruism". Even as the sociopath knows with certainty she's "different from other human beings", she projects onto others her own idiosyncracies. The way to understand this is, the sociopath is in a Catch-22, she can't "feel" the difference, she can only understand it logically. 

By age 20 or so, the future course of the individual has been pretty much determined. If there is "sufficient" activity in the vmPFC and "sufficient" inhibition of impulsive and high-risk behavior, then it's likely the person will learn at least "some" social boundaries and not end up in jail for repeated violations of other peoples' rights. Anger is a contributing factor, so the more amygdalar anger there is, the more likely it is that someone will end up harming either themselves or someone else (most likely someone else, it's the borderlines who harm themselves).

When present, the transition to an angry and aggressive (and possibly violent) mode is "very quick", it can occur so quickly that no one's ready for it and no one has time to prepare a defense. It's literally like flipping a switch, once the current starts flowing you get the entire set of behaviors. There is no cure, at least not at today's level of medical technology, and the only management involves debilitating the person to such a degree that they can't function. (You can give 'em a big dose of anti-psychotics and they won't be violent anymore).

It seems to me, the best thing to do is promote awareness in the general public. But more than that - the statistics show that 85% of sociopathic women choose not to have children. However the remaining 15% represent over 50,000 mothers in this country. And it occurs to me that no one understands a sociopath like another sociopath. This condition is genetic, if the mother has it the kid's going to get it too. The "severity" of it depends on environmental factors, and if you can keep the kid in a mode where she's always in the middle of tight social networks then it's far more likely she'll be "less severe" as an adult - whereas if you just let her go without any supervision and without any education then she'll probably end up in jail.

Imagine what would happen if a sociopathic parent (or anyone else for that matter) could actually tell the 10 year old, when they first experience the reality that they're different from everyone else, "why they're different" and what it means. Imagine how powerful it would be, if the kid didn't have to go through trial-and-error, and instead learned the rules up front from someone who already knows? The trial-and-error is called Conduct Disorder, remember? It's specifically one of the diagnostic criteria that "must" be present for an adult diagnosis of ASPD. Imagine what would happen if all the sociopaths in this world could become high-functioning without having to engage in Conduct Disorder to get there.  :Smile:

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## nonsqtr

I want to thank everyone who participated in this oddball thread, I was just looking through it trying to find the person who suggested I get into the prison system and take a look around - so whoever that was, "thank you", I'm taking your suggestion, I just got my clearance from the sheriff and I get two hours a day twice a week for the next three months, I get to tag along with an ex who's a forensic psychologist and I also get to sit in on group sessions with the prisoners. 

This is "work", yes? I'm genuinely interested, I want to find out how the "criminal psychopath" differs from your ordinary run of the mill high functioning sociopath, and piggybacking on Jodie Foster isn't going to do the trick. There's another avenue I'm working on too, there's an AA group that goes into the prisons and I'm trying to get into that too, because that's a looser dialog and there's probably a greater comfort level in terms of sharing meaningful information.

Dunno if I told y'all, I saw a bunch of videos on Conduct Disorder, it was quite the heads up. (I mean, I thought "I" was a weird kid, but I was way normal compared to some of the kids in those vids, and they're like... seven... eight years old... wow).

I feel like I'm beginning to understand some of the difficulty in both diagnosis and treatment. In a very real way, the condition of "sociopathy" is almost exactly like alcoholism or addiction. The underlying brain processes are almost identical, and the psychology is very similar in many ways. However when it comes to treatment, "Sociopaths Anonymous" would not work, for two reasons - first because there's no Sword of Damocles hanging over the sociopath to make him feel remorseful and guilty and deflated every time he relapses, and second because the sociopath will become bored of the whole treatment group concept long before it does any good.

Apparently what does work, is a reward paradigm, but the person has to be "immersed" in it, in other words, it doesn't work if the effect is diluted by other ongoing real-world interactions. Apparently they've done some highly successful work with "constrained economies" in lockdown facilities (Patuxent and Mendota are two of them), the success rates are astronomical and it looks like they've pretty much proven that punishment won't work but reward will. Which is kind of the "state of the art" at this point (like, they "just now" discovered this), which is why the ex is involved and so on, the PTB is spending money trying to figure out how to make this work in the prison system 'cause they don't want to spend even more money housing the criminally insane.

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## nonsqtr

This may be interesting to some of you.

This is a rant, right? So now I'm gonna rant.

So it turns out, that there are very many "sub-clinical psychopaths" who have never touched the criminal justice system. My friend is such a person, very intelligent, high functioning, ... she's not a "danger to society" except if you don't know what to expect. However the problem with "personality disorders" in general, is that in most cases there's more than one, present at the same time. In my friend's case there is narcissism, and there is sociopathy. They are "part of the same condition", part of the same thing, they can't really be teased apart. 

But what is it, exactly? Is it just a severe case of narcissism that's gone into full-blown sociopathy? Or is it what they call a "narcissistic sociopath", which is a variety or flavor of the psychopathic condition? Or is it some kind of mixture, where two brain systems got messed up at the same time?

So now, it turns out, that if my friend wants to know, and wants to get a psych assessment, she has to sign a release authorizing them to check her juvenile records. Why? There are two answers, at two different levels. The first is because "psychopaths lie", they don't trust you to tell them the truth and therefore they're going to check to find out if you are. The second is, because the diagnosis requires Conduct Disorder at age 15, you can't be a psychopath if you didn't have that. (You can be a "sub-clinical" sociopath, but you can't get the diagnosis of actual sociopathy without the Conduct Disorder).

In other words, there's no way to get an anonymous assessment. The minute you sign that release, your name gets associated with the information. 

And the problem is, that if you're naïve about assessments and you happen to end up with a diagnosis of psychopathy, it will follow you everywhere for the rest of your life. If you ever end up in jail for any reason, they'll find out about it. The judge can order a release of your records, and in that case they'll go after your juvenile records too (which would ordinarily be sealed), because the mere presence of a PCL result (of any kind) indicates that the records exist.

In other words, the mere act of asking, is enough to get you in trouble.

Which seems to me, to be a very big problem. There are probably ten times as many "sub-clinical" psychopaths in the general population, as there are clinical cases in prison. And most of these people (or many of them at least) are unaware that they're psychopaths. My friend for instance, had never heard the vocabulary outside of a pejorative context, and now that she has irrefutable proof she's mystified, she doesn't know what to do. She knows she needs help, but she also doesn't want it, because she has a lot to lose if she even goes in for the evaluation.

It's horrible that someone who keeps getting beat up has to put herself at additional risk to find out why.

Her only option is to self-diagnose, in other words she can take the MMPI and NPI and PPI and someone can score them for her, and she's going to see what she already knows (now), which is a big peak in Pd and a 30+ for narcissism. Maybe the tests could tell her what "kind" of a narcissist she is, but that's kinda obvious too. 

The problem is, without a formal diagnosis, she can't get a brain scan. The scientists won't go through all the trouble of setting up a functional MRI unless they're certain there's a reason. And, that's another thing they won't do anonymously, you can't just walk into the hospital with a random number because it's an actual medical procedure and they're liable for your safety and well being while it's happening.

The "only" thing she can do anonymously is genetic testing, there's a dozen companies at least that'll do that on the basis of a random number.

And there's further stupidity in the system - because of - you guessed it - ObamaCare. If my friend wants to go see a shrink, it can be paid for by private insurance (ObamaCare mandates this), but only with an appropriate diagnostic code, which in this case happens to be 301.7 or F60.2 (indicating "sociopath"). Once again - she's screwed just for asking, and if she goes to seek treatment the first question the insurance companies ask is "what's she being treated for?"

This reminds me of the way society used to handle alcoholics before Bill Wilson came along. (That was in the 30's, and it took from there to the 80's - almost 50 years - before the courts started sending alcoholics to rehab instead of to prison). The thing is, Bill Wilson found a solution, and before that no one thought there was one. Doctors were pulling their hair out (and even committing suicide) trying to treat their alcoholic patients (of which there were many), and they tried all kinds of stuff but nothing worked.

I could go into a whole long rant about how and why AA works, but the closest thing in terms of cluster B is CBT and DBT (that's "Cognitive Behavioral Therapy" and "Dialectical Behavioral Therapy"). DBT is mostly used for Borderlines, and there's a whole lot less stigma associated with borderline personalities than there is with psychopathy. More borderlines seek treatment. "Almost no one" has any expertise with DBT in the context of psychopathy, because very few psychopaths seek treatment.

The whole idea of "treatment", is that the sociopath has to be shown that it's beneficial to allow certain types of feelings to enter her consciousness - it's very much like the "mindfulness" that the 12 Steps brings to the alcoholic. If you are "mindful" of your alcoholism you still won't be cured, but at least you can stop yourself from being an asshole. And, that level of mindfulness brings with it a cognitive restructuring (they kind of happen at the same time) that changes your perceptual filters and the way you see and respond to events.

The research clearly shows that sociopaths (especially the high-functioning types) can empathize, can do so on command, and will do so if it's beneficial. But this knowledge is not widely disseminated. The vernacular is that sociopaths "can't empathize", and that's why they're sociopaths. And this is not at all accurate. The sociopath has to be shown "how" to empathize, in the same way the alcoholic has to be shown "how" not to pick up the first drink, and that's accomplished through a program of mindfulness which in both cases includes a peer group and a "sponsor" (someone who's in daily contact to keep the information front and center in the person's mind - in the case of CBT and DBT this role is filled by the therapist).

"Sub-clinical psychopaths" (in all flavors) are lost children, they've fallen through the cracks. They can't get help, they can't get treatment without putting themselves at additional risk. Society "forces" them to live on the fringes, on the margins. They're being tossed to the wolves out of ignorance, the same way alcoholics were 50 years ago.

/rant

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## Northern Rivers

These are people I avoid like the plague. Once you do that...there's no problem. Simple.  :Smiley20:

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## nonsqtr

> These are people I avoid like the plague. Once you do that...there's no problem. Simple.


You might be surprised how hard it is to identify some of these people. I have a whole new appreciation for the difficulty of the actual practice of psychiatry.

Anyway just to close this out, my one ex who's a shrink has determined that my other ex is an actual biological psychopath.

And she came to this diagnosis (by remote based on my verbal reports, which means it's not an actual diagnosis), because I told her about a peculiarity that I noticed over the course of several years.

The context is I dated this sociopathic woman very briefly about 20 years ago (she seemed perfectly normal lol), but since then we've continued a relationship on several other levels, so I know this woman very well. I used to work with her 8 hours a day for 3 years and she used to give me rides to and from work, so that would be an extra two hours a day on the freeway. So I've spent enough time with her to be able to report her behavior in great detail.

So what I noticed some years ago is this woman has real trouble with email. She's fine when she's with you in person, when she's actually looking at you and she can read your face. But when she's reading words on a piece of paper or a computer screen they don't have the same impact on her. I would say they confuse her, the words are unclear especially when they have emotional content.

The shrinks call this a "lexical-affective deficit", and it only appears in genuine biological psychopaths, never in sociopaths that were made that way by early experience.

So, this speaks directly to the current state of diagnosis. There are two competing diagnostic authorities, one is called the ICD which is based on parameters defined by the World Health Organization. The other is the DSM which is a publication of the American Psychiatric Association, and is very much steeped in domestic politics because of the crossover with the criminal justice system.

In my opinion the ICD-10 is correct. It accurately describes the behavior that I observe in my psychopathic friend. However the category F60.2 is called "dissocial", not psychopathic. In other words they're trying to do the right thing by looking at the behavior without making assumptions about what's causing it. In order to determine what's really causing it you need a brain scan. The lexical deficit will also show up with a psychological test, but with a brain scan you can see everything at once, you can see the problems in the anterior cingulate cortex and so on.

According to Robert Hare who created the PCL (current industry standard diagnostic tool), many biological psychopaths also exhibit a mild form of autism. They have difficulty communicating, especially when words have emotional content.

This absolutely points to a specific underlying genetic condition.

There is no combination of environmental influences that will reproduce the entire syndrome reliably. It has to be genetic.

The interesting thing NR, is there are ten times as many high functioning psychopaths as there are people in prison. For some people that condition is not severe enough to be totally disabling, and I'll bet a lot of those people are quite scared as they navigate through this world on a daily basis. I understand the victimology, but I also think these people are misunderstood in the same way perhaps that substance abusers were misunderstood in the middle of the last century. (Alcolohics for instance were being institutionalized before Bill Wilson came along). It seems to me that if more people understood what this behavior really is, they wouldn't be so scared of it. There's parts of it that are definitely very damaging, but a lot of that is just being blindsided by it because it's not something that you expect from people as you go about your daily life. Some of that stuff literally "comes out of left field", it's a complicated psychology if you don't understand it and you're not expecting it, but it's actually quite simple if you know what to look for. What makes the diagnosis more difficult is that the whole thing is dimensional, so like, you've got a pallet of 10 behaviors which may express themselves in varying degrees at various times, and if you just observe for 5 minutes you're only going to see one of those times, so you really do have to be able to observe repeatedly over an extended period of time.

Anyway I thought that was interesting. A lexical deficit turns out to be the defining diagnostic criterion for psychopathy.

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## Madison

We have some here on the Forum----some 2 libtards that every one knows
and they think so much about themselves
 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## nonsqtr

> These are people I avoid like the plague. Once you do that...there's no problem. Simple.


The interesting follow-up to this is that the truly dangerous Psychopathic types exhibit a behavior called "instrumental", which means goal-directed. (It would be the opposite of impulsive behavior, instead it would be the carefully planned and plotted use of Psychopathic talents for some nefarious purpose, frequently involving violations of the law and almost always involving violations of other people's rights). These are the people that really need to be avoided yes?

So like, my ex is entirely non-instrumental. She is impulsive, but not instrumental.

What that tells me is, the instrumental part of this is something distinct and separate from the underlying biological genetics. Only "some" psychopaths are instrumental, not all.

The ex has more than one thing going on, in her case there's probably some acquired narcissism in addition to the genetic psychopathy. So in her case the callousness reflects itself in the shallowness of relationships. She's not a danger to society in an instrumental sense, she's not going to kidnap anyone and tie them up to keep them from talking. In fact she goes the other way, when she's threatened or exposed she exhibits avoidant behavior.

Before seeing the broader spectrum of her behavior though, I would have said this woman was exceedingly fun to be around. She has a very unique way of looking at the world and at people, and she says some very surprising and unusual (and sometimes even brilliant) things. She's very smart, very intelligent. (And she's also very good looking, so I doubt that "staying away from her" would be on your radar screen for a good long while).

What I've learned with this particular woman is, I can elicit the callous behavior by pushing certain buttons. If I don't push on those buttons I never see the behavior. It took a while to learn that, and to learn which specific buttons are involved, but after awhile you just learned not to go there with that person. Everyone has something like that right? Something they don't want to talk about or can't handle very well. 

The other half of it is the behavior is so fascinating that you can't help but just sit there and watch it. Even if there's callousness being directed at you, you kinda go, "hm this is interesting".

Anyway, I could say more but that's enough.  :Smile:

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## tom

> I dated this sociopathic woman. . .


How has she done harm?

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## Dan40

Does reading their lies and insanity on this forum count?

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## nonsqtr

> How has she done harm?


Harm? Who said anything about harm?  :Wink: 

I mentioned one case of "almost" harm, that amounted to a grand total of nothing.

That was one case in 25 years.

So, overall, no harm, I'd say.

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## nonsqtr

> Does reading their lies and insanity on this forum count?


Ha ha - psychopaths are very clever. How can you tell what's a lie and what's not? 

Hint: turn on the TV and watch some random news. How can you tell what's a lie and what's not?

There's some concepts with psychopaths, that enter into the human equation in an entirely different, and I find that fascinating.

For instance - the concept of interpersonal "agency". There's a bunch of videos on YouTube by a guy named James Fallon, he's a Professor Emeritus at UC Irvine Medical School, and he found out entirely by accident that he was a genuine biological psychopath. (This at age 50, when he was already teaching medicine). So, you can listen to this guy talking about himself, and it's entirely revealing. The guy goes, "yeah, I'm kind of an asshole", and then he tells you why.  :Wink: 

This stuff is all new to me, I mean, I'm a biophysicist and a musician, I don't know nothin' from psychopaths. But in the course of life I've had to become an accountant just to pay my taxes, and a lawyer just to buy and sell houses, and now it seems I have to become a psychiatrist just to navigate the human equation. Believe me, I've been totally taken by surprise by this stuff. First I had a discussion with the sociopathic ex that was "so" weird that I was like... wow... (and that was after 25 years of relative normalcy), so I went and asked my other ex who's a shrink, and she says "what you're describing is a 301.7", and I'm like "no way", I was in disbelief and denial. So then I went through the checklists to see if she was telling me the truth, and sure enough my friend was scoring 90% and such - so I'm like "wow", so then I started doing research and so now I'm kinda down to where I understand the difference between NPD and ASPD-N. I still couldn't diagnose anyone, but I'm a "little" more hip about some behaviors that I can observe.

What I learned specifically out of this exercise, is the idea of "dimensionality" in behavior, so like, I'm interested in this because of my daughter, this was exactly the model I needed to understand her behavior. (She's not a psychopath, she's the exact opposite, but the idea of "dimensionality" in her behavior is still very important, for me, when I'm looking at it and trying to understand it). So like, "I" as a human being with a Christian and mostly ethical upbringing, look at human relationships in a certain way, words like "honesty" enter the equation, words like "trust", stuff like that. But the shrinks, they have a whole different vocabulary, they talk about "impulsivity" and "sensation-seeking" and stuff, so like, my task is to merge those models so I can translate the vocabulary, and I'm not quite there yet but at least I'm on the path.

I dunno, I just shared this with y'all 'cause it's fascinating and it happens to be going on. I'm a student of human behavior, seems some of y'all are too, so I figured "some" of you would be interested. I tried doing this anonymously and theoretically,  so like, no violations of the HIPAA laws or anything.

But this is "interesting" to me - I mean, the stats say that 11% of the population has a personality disorder of some sort, and about 4% of the population is "sociopathic" in some way (and of those 4% there are 7 times more men than women), and the incidence of true biological psychopathy is on the order of 0.1%. So, "we" in general, are almost certain to encounter people with personality disorders in our lives, and we have a "very good chance" of encountering a sociopath at some point. Could you identify such a person? I couldn't, prior to this little exercise. I woulda just said "awfully strange behavior" and I would have probably stayed away from that person, "if" I had known enough and seen enough.

But the 0.1%, that's pretty rare. Given those odds, "most" of us would probably not encounter an actual biological psychopath in our lives, much less have a relationship with one. So like, the idea that my friend is just like Prof. Fallon, "so" high functioning that it's basically impossible to identify unless you've know that person for years and years and interacted with them "extensively" - that's a kind of a heads-up, isn't it? Y'know, it's like, not only couldn't I tell, I wasn't even looking. Words like "impulsivity" are not usually on my radar screen "at first" when I'm evaluating someone's interpersonal behavior.

Anyway... the whole trip here, is I want to know what I'm looking at. My daughter is having some behavioral issues, she's about to turn 10 and I told you a little about what she's up to, so like, from where I stand it's exceedingly fortunate and fortuitous that all this "psychopath" stuff happened at the exact same time I needed the "dimensional" model to be able to look at my daughter's behavior through a slightly different lens. I'm not a shrink, I generally don't look at behavior that way, it's a "different" model for me, one that I have to learn about and get used to. 

I'm trying to be a better parent. I think I could tell if my daughter were using drugs, but the whole idea is, there's subtler stuff that happens way before that, and if as a parent the drugs are the first thing I notice then it's already too late. The drugs are a "symptom" of other stuff, so as a parent my job is to understand the "other stuff", and to see it before the drugs enter the picture.

And, I'm definitely interested in the concept of "organic causes" for behavioral issues, and also interested in the ability to distinguish them from non-organic factors. When I get back to Smell A I'm going to start reading into the childhood stuff that causes narcissism later in life, that stuff is entirely fascinating too. That's "non-organic", yes? It's entirely environmental, but the experts say that at some point (when it gets bad enough) the brains of narcissists and psychopaths look "almost indistinguishable", and one is genetic whereas the other is acquired.

And, I'm interested in the "other" stuff like the lexical deficits, 'cause those are sometimes easier to see than emotional problems. If I want to know about my daughter's lexical deficits I can just ask her teachers, I don't have to send her to a shrink. Fortunately my child doesn't have any lexical deficits, she's a straight-A student and she already speaks multiple languages fluently, and there's nothing "wrong" with her except she's growing up too fast and she's a little too curious for her own good (which makes her "just like me" lol)  :Smile:

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FlameHeart (01-20-2021)

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## nonsqtr

Actually I'll say one more thing -

The part of this I find "most" fascinating is the following statement:

"The value system adjusts accordingly".

This is a phenomenon I've been studying for a very long time. The human value system shapes itself according to two things: its capabilities, and its needs.

In the early history of psychology there was a fellow who understood this intuitively, but he didn't really grasp the full scope of it. His name was Maslow, you've probably heard of "Maslow's hierarchy of needs", well, it's the same concept. What does a dog do "most" of the time? Sniff other dogs! (Sex). Until, it gets hungry, then it's no longer interested in other dogs. And it'll keep eating until someone cuts off its air supply, then suddenly it's not interested in food anymore. The needs are met in order of importance, is the point. Air, food, sex is a "hierarchy". 

Anyway, the value system of a psychopath is a marvel to behold. You really have to dig into it a bit to understand how twisted this whole equation becomes. For instance - in an interpersonal context, an empath will say "what can I do for you", whereas a psychopath will say "I don't owe you anything". This simple distinction is based on a perception of self vs other, but you can see how important it is in terms of shaping the value system. if "I don't owe you anything" it basically means I can do anything I want to you and get away with it. It's an "excuse" for my inability (as a psychopath) to feel guilt, remorse, and social responsibility.

So, a psychopath will "use" this part of the value system, to "rationalize" antisocial behaviors. They view everyone who enters their sphere as entering voluntarily, and any interaction that occurs is assumed to be voluntary and intentional. That's because of the "paucity of affect" - the "feelings" that usually bond human beings together, which are "sparse" in a psychopath. I mean, there's "layers" to this thing, right? It would be monstrously complex to unravel, you can't just invalidate the fundamental assumption and expect the rest to take care of itself (like you can in math and science).

The high functioning types are acutely aware of their behaviors, and while they're not always fully in control it's not because they can't be, it's more because they don't "care" enough to devote attention and energy in that direction. According to yet another ex who's a forensic psychologist down in San Diego, many of these people construct elaborate edifices of "normalcy" in their lives, because they're scared of the consequences of not doing so - they realize they're walking a fine line in terms of society and how they fit in. So like, a high functioning psychopath will devote energy and attention to "maintaining" a long term relationship (even one with the "appearance" of being monogamous and committed), to disguise the impulsivity and sensation-seeking that results in promiscuity. Many apparently do this with the idea that they might "someday have to game a therapist", so if the therapist asks if they're sleeping around they can say, "I've been with the same person for the last 15 years", and as long as they don't put the word "no" in front of the sentence they're technically telling the truth - so in practice it requires a "really good" assessment person to evaluate a psychopath, they have to know exactly "how" to ask the right questions, for instance, "how many sexual partners have you had in the last 30 days", and if the answer is evasive they can just say "please answer the question directly".

So like, this idea of the value system conforming to capabilities and needs has everything to do with "fluid boundaries". That process is ongoing at a microscopic level in every human being, and it's only the macroscopic changes that people can see (and sometimes become concerned about). I've been reading in the literature about the interaction between psychopaths and other personality types. For instance, a psychopath and a borderline, or a psychopath and a neurotypical - how do they relate, what kinds of interactions can you expect? How about a psychopath and another psychopath, does that ever happen? Every time two people interact (any two people), when their value systems touch the boundaries come into conflict (unless they happen to be "perfectly" matched, which is exceedingly rare). So, in relationships, there are "boundary adjustments", and most of them probably occur early on, although some may occur later and when they do they're generally more significant. The value systems interact, and you see some interesting behaviors when that happens. A simple example is one person "egging another on", so like, the psychopath is impulsive and doesn't mind breaking the law, and therefore encourages the other person to do the same. Well... not everything about a psychopath is "bad". Under certain conditions the interpersonal equilibrium with a psychopath can be mutually beneficial. These people have a very unique way of looking at the world, they see things that others don't. Most of the problem in terms of relationships is that the psychopath doesn't care enough to communicate it. lol  :Smile:

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## tom

> Harm? Who said anything about harm? 
> 
> I mentioned one case of "almost" harm, that amounted to a grand total of nothing.
> 
> That was one case in 25 years.
> 
> So, overall, no harm, I'd say.


sociopath -- a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

Harm is implicit in this definition. If she did no harm, she is not a sociopath.

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## nonsqtr

> sociopath -- a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.  Harm is implicit in this definition. If she did no harm, she is not a sociopath.


"Harm" is a relative thing. The "harm" caused by a sociopath (as distinct from a criminal psychopath) is mostly at the interpersonal emotional level. And two things are true there: anyone with adequate defenses can't be harmed, and anyone without feelings can't be harmed either.

The other thing is, "harm" implies intent. You can say that these "extreme antisocial attitudes and lack of conscience" cause other people (emotional) "pain", but the idea of harm implies that it's being done deliberately, and that's "almost always" not the case. In truth, sociopaths can not control their behavior, that's part of why it's "pathological".

For example - one of the primary distinctive behaviors in sociopathy is "callous disregard", which as stated, affects others primarily at an interpersonal emotional level. If, say, this behavior were to occur in some kind of romantic context, it would be very damaging. It would cause "pain", certainly, but it's unclear whether any harm is intended. A specific example of this would be the "narcissistic" behavior involved in "narcissistic" sociopathy (which is the most common kind) - those people sometimes ("often") set themselves up for their own breakups, in other words, they'll deliberately create the conditions under which the other person is emotionally devastated and ends up breaking up with them 'cause they can't handle the emotional pain. This behavior is not necessarily "intentional", in fact, at some level as shown by brain scans, it's almost equivalent to the "cutting" behavior one finds in borderlines. It's "not fully in their control", right? They do it for the most abstract of psychological reasons, the "rationales" for it are fascinating.

"Sociopath" is a diagnostic description for a specific set of behaviors. It's "dimensional" in the sense that it involves about 20 components, and you have to score high on a bunch of them to be considered sociopathic. A large part of it has nothing to do with others, it's more in the perception of self. For instance, "grandiosity" is one of the primary components of sociopathy, and that's clearly the most obvious place where the underlying biology touches the value system. What that means specifically, is that a sociopath typically suffers from "paucity of affect" which means a lack of feelings (or a lack of "intensity" of feelings), and many of them find they derive an advantage from it, in other words they can remain calm in situations where others are freaking out from fear or anxiety or guilt or remorse. So they end up laughing at the poor clowns with feelings.... that kind of thing. They become "grandiose" relative to neurotypicals, and people become playthings because certain kinds of sociopaths are very analytical and they're very good at eliciting feelings in others.

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## Canadianeye

> "Harm" is a relative thing. The "harm" caused by a sociopath (as distinct from a criminal psychopath) is mostly at the interpersonal emotional level. And two things are true there: anyone with adequate defenses can't be harmed, and anyone without feelings can't be harmed either.
> 
> The other thing is, "harm" implies intent. You can say that these "extreme antisocial attitudes and lack of conscience" cause other people (emotional) "pain", but the idea of harm implies that it's being done deliberately, and that's "almost always" not the case. In truth, sociopaths can not control their behavior, that's part of why it's "pathological".
> 
> For example - one of the primary distinctive behaviors in sociopathy is "callous disregard", which as stated, affects others primarily at an interpersonal emotional level. If, say, this behavior were to occur in some kind of romantic context, it would be very damaging. It would cause "pain", certainly, but it's unclear whether any harm is intended. A specific example of this would be the "narcissistic" behavior involved in "narcissistic" sociopathy (which is the most common kind) - those people sometimes ("often") set themselves up for their own breakups, in other words, they'll deliberately create the conditions under which the other person is emotionally devastated and ends up breaking up with them 'cause they can't handle the emotional pain. This behavior is not necessarily "intentional", in fact, at some level as shown by brain scans, it's almost equivalent to the "cutting" behavior one finds in borderlines. It's "not fully in their control", right? They do it for the most abstract of psychological reasons, the "rationales" for it are fascinating.
> 
> "Sociopath" is a diagnostic description for a specific set of behaviors. It's "dimensional" in the sense that it involves about 20 components, and you have to score high on a bunch of them to be considered sociopathic. A large part of it has nothing to do with others, it's more in the perception of self. For instance, "grandiosity" is one of the primary components of sociopathy, and that's clearly the most obvious place where the underlying biology touches the value system. What that means specifically, is that a sociopath typically suffers from "paucity of affect" which means a lack of feelings (or a lack of "intensity" of feelings), and many of them find they derive an advantage from it, in other words they can remain calm in situations where others are freaking out from fear or anxiety or guilt or remorse. So they end up laughing at the poor clowns with feelings.... that kind of thing. They become "grandiose" relative to neurotypicals, and people become playthings because certain kinds of sociopaths are very analytical and they're very good at eliciting feelings in others.


Latent sociopaths?

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## tom

> "Harm" is a relative thing. The "harm" caused by a sociopath (as distinct from a criminal psychopath) is mostly at the interpersonal emotional level. And two things are true there: anyone with adequate defenses can't be harmed, and anyone without feelings can't be harmed either.
> 
> The other thing is, "harm" implies intent. You can say that these "extreme antisocial attitudes and lack of conscience" cause other people (emotional) "pain", but the idea of harm implies that it's being done deliberately, and that's "almost always" not the case. In truth, sociopaths can not control their behavior, that's part of why it's "pathological".
> 
> For example - one of the primary distinctive behaviors in sociopathy is "callous disregard", which as stated, affects others primarily at an interpersonal emotional level. If, say, this behavior were to occur in some kind of romantic context, it would be very damaging. It would cause "pain", certainly, but it's unclear whether any harm is intended. A specific example of this would be the "narcissistic" behavior involved in "narcissistic" sociopathy (which is the most common kind) - those people sometimes ("often") set themselves up for their own breakups, in other words, they'll deliberately create the conditions under which the other person is emotionally devastated and ends up breaking up with them 'cause they can't handle the emotional pain. This behavior is not necessarily "intentional", in fact, at some level as shown by brain scans, it's almost equivalent to the "cutting" behavior one finds in borderlines. It's "not fully in their control", right? They do it for the most abstract of psychological reasons, the "rationales" for it are fascinating.
> 
> "Sociopath" is a diagnostic description for a specific set of behaviors. It's "dimensional" in the sense that it involves about 20 components, and you have to score high on a bunch of them to be considered sociopathic. A large part of it has nothing to do with others, it's more in the perception of self. For instance, "grandiosity" is one of the primary components of sociopathy, and that's clearly the most obvious place where the underlying biology touches the value system. What that means specifically, is that a sociopath typically suffers from "paucity of affect" which means a lack of feelings (or a lack of "intensity" of feelings), and many of them find they derive an advantage from it, in other words they can remain calm in situations where others are freaking out from fear or anxiety or guilt or remorse. So they end up laughing at the poor clowns with feelings.... that kind of thing. They become "grandiose" relative to neurotypicals, and people become playthings because certain kinds of sociopaths are very analytical and they're very good at eliciting feelings in others.


Harm is not relative, nor does it depend on awareness of victim or perpetrator. Antisocial behavior may mean littering, damaging street signs, breaking windows, taking up two parking spaces, spray painting messages, etc. It may mean acts of disrespect like  failure to keep promises, indirect criticism, or behavior that creates confusion and uncertainty. Turning one's dog out to poop in a neighbor's yard is harm. Keeping a vicious dog is harm. Creating loud noises and stinks is harm. When such behavior is habitual, sociopath is appropriate. In my opinion, without clarity as to harm, applying the word sociopath to someone is no more than name calling.

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## Neo

> Harm is not relative, nor does it depend on awareness of victim or perpetrator. Antisocial behavior may mean littering, damaging street signs, breaking windows, taking up two parking spaces, spray painting messages, etc. It may mean acts of disrespect like  failure to keep promises, indirect criticism, or behavior that creates confusion and uncertainty. Turning one's dog out to poop in a neighbor's yard is harm. Keeping a vicious dog is harm. Creating loud noises and stinks is harm. When such behavior is habitual, sociopath is appropriate. In my opinion, without clarity as to harm, applying the word sociopath to someone is no more than name calling.


I agree with what you have posted, from my earlier posts you certainly know how my mind works, any act of disrespect from someone will incorporate me thinking payback. Payback would be a certainty.

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## nonsqtr

> Harm is not relative, nor does it depend on awareness of victim or perpetrator. Antisocial behavior may mean littering, damaging street signs, breaking windows, taking up two parking spaces, spray painting messages, etc. It may mean acts of disrespect like  failure to keep promises, indirect criticism, or behavior that creates confusion and uncertainty. Turning one's dog out to poop in a neighbor's yard is harm. Keeping a vicious dog is harm. Creating loud noises and stinks is harm.


No. You're talking about "criminal" behavior. Yes, it is true, there is that - which is why the jails are full of psychopaths. However, not all psychopaths are violent, and not all of them engage in theft or kidnapping or mass murder, and not all sociopaths are "harmful" per se.

It is important to understand the vocabulary, and be very specific about it. "Sociopath" is a description of behavior, whereas "psychopath" is a description of the underlying medical condition.




> When such behavior is habitual, sociopath is appropriate. In my opinion, without clarity as to harm, applying the word sociopath to someone is no more than name calling.


No. "Sociopath" means something very specific. It's a psychiatric diagnosis, it has nothing to do with being in jail or harming anyone. (However, they "look at" that stuff, it's part of the diagnosis, but it's certainly not the only thing).
Psychiatry-land is all about behavior, they go out of their way not to make any assumptions about underlying conditions. There are "many" underlying conditions that can result in sociopathic behavior, there is narcissism, there is avoidant personality disorder and even substance abuse. The technical term for sociopathy is "anti-social personality disorder" or ASPD, in terms of the DSM it's a 301.7. In the related ICD codes which are recognized by the WHO, sociopathy is F60.2 and it's called "dissocial personality disorder" or DPD. 

Sociopathy is measurable, it's not name-calling. There are multiple diagnostic tools that measure the components of sociopathy at different levels. The industry standard diagnostic tool for risk assessment (which is what you're talking about) is called the PCL-R, but there are half a dozen other assessment tools that measure internal and external aspects of sociopathic behavior. There are assessment tools that require a competent expert, and there are also assessment tools you can use on yourself for self-testing and self-reporting, like for instance the PPI.

No one is sociopathic just because they hurt you. Remember, sociopathy is a personality disorder, not a "behavior" disorder. It's not sufficient to treat people in a harmful way, or even treat them like dirt without actually harming them. To be a sociopath you have to be "grandiose", you have to be "impulsive", you have to be "sensation-seeking", that kind of thing. The generalized behaviors go far beyond how you happen to interact with others.

And, it's important to realize that not all sociopathic behaviors are identical, and not all sociopaths are identical. It's not a yes-or-no thing, it's more like, you're on that side of the line "most of the time", or, you're on that side of the line "only infrequently" but when you are it's so bad you're committing serious crimes. In the case of the narcissistic sociopath for example, the "callous disregard" may only appear in a romantic context - however, if you really start testing behavior you find that it's actually more than just romance, you end up realizing the behavior appears "anywhere that requires emotional intimacy". That kind of thing.

Yes you're right, consistency is part of the deal. There are certain behaviors that are expected to be more consistent, for instance interpersonal manipulation. The "harm" in that... may or may not be serious, it could be, particularly if the manipulation is "instrumental". In the case of the narcissist certain events can "trigger a narcissistic crisis", at which point the sociopathic behavior appears (anytime there's not a crisis, there's little cause for concern).

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## nonsqtr

> I agree with what you have posted, from my earlier posts you certainly know how my mind works, any act of disrespect from someone will incorporate me thinking payback. Payback would be a certainty.


See? 

That's a perfect example, thank you Tom.

The payback is "triggered", by what you perceive to be disrespect. Yes?

And, the sociopathic behavior (if it exists), would only "appear" at the point the payback is being delivered, yes?

Otherwise, no one would ever know you're dreaming about payback - and any "personality issues" that might exist would be completely hidden, until the point of action.

But the diagnostic questionnaire, will ask you, "do you often dream about payback", and, maybe you'd answer yes.

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## Neo

> See? 
> 
> That's a perfect example, thank you Tom.
> 
> The payback is "triggered", by what you perceive to be disrespect. Yes?
> 
> And, the sociopathic behavior (if it exists), would only "appear" at the point the payback is being delivered, yes?
> 
> Otherwise, no one would ever know you're dreaming about payback - and any "personality issues" that might exist would be completely hidden, until the point of action.
> ...



I could give a give a lot of examples of payback I've done, only I've known about them.
secrecy is the important part of the pleasure...it's true "revenge is always best served cold"

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nonsqtr (08-25-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> sociopath -- a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.
>  Harm is implicit in this definition. If she did no harm, she is not a sociopath.


I understand your point about the labeling, and I'd probably agree with it in theory - um... you kinda have to immerse yourself in this stuff for a while though, to even begin to understand it (I mean, if you're a "neuro-typical" like me, 'cause "normies" have no way of "really" understanding what this is all about).

There's a "spectrum" of sociopathic behavior, ranging from the barely noticeable stuff in the high functioning types, to the overtly dangerous stuff in the high-risk psychopaths. The specific chick I was talking about is high-functioning, she's very intelligent (brilliant, probably), in fact, I can give you an example of what she's like. On the internet there's a person named James Fallon, he's a professor emeritus at the UC Irvine School of Medicine, and he discovered "accidentally" that he's a psychopath. (You can Google him, type "James Fallon" and click on "videos" and there's stuff on YouTube).

So this guy is a full-blown psychopath, except he's high-functioning and very intelligent like the chick I'm talking about. According to my other ex who's a shrink, this chick is also an actual psychopath, because she has a particular lexical deficit that only biological psychopaths have. So like, Fallon and my chick are probably "very close", in terms of behavior and overall personality characteristics.

So like, if you look at this guy Fallon for a while, on the videos and such... he SEEMS "perfectly normal".... at first glance. When you start reading about him, and listening to him, you pick up some interesting stuff, like for example, he says about himself, "I'm kind of an asshole". lol  :Wink:  http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...ath-180947814/

So, reason I'm saying this, is if you want to talk about "harm", the worst actual harm we're talking about, in the case of someone like Fallon, or someone like my chick, is the concept that they can be "quite an asshole" sometimes. And I mean, we've all run into assholes, there's a lot of those around, but these people are assholes in a special way, they're "beyond" assholes in certain ways, the behavior they emit would be perceived as "malicious" in some contexts, it's sometimes so close to the border of actual maliciousness that it causes people to step back and say "woah".

The idea of "retaliation" like Tom's talking about, that's something different, that's called "instrumental" behavior, and it's quite unique to psychopaths (you don't usually find it in narcissistic sociopaths, for example). An ordinary sociopath though, will toy with someone, will yank chains around feelings, will keep people in compartments, will "manage" people and manipulate them and .... in a way, if it gets extreme, it could be said to extend into "preying" upon the feelings of others, although that kind of thing is usually associated with "comorbidity" (in other words there's something more going on than just the psychopathy, maybe it's psychopathy "plus" narcissism, because the narcissist is the one who thrives on the feelings of others).

Kudos to Tom for talking about this stuff, 'cause for many the worst fear is exposure. Part of the personality is the construction of what the psychiatrists call "edifices of normalcy", which means for example - in the diagnostic criteria it says "unable to maintain long term relationships", so the person will deliberately seek out and maintain a long term relationship even if it's difficult and costly to do so. Many sociopaths are quite promiscuous, and the pattern for such people is they keep someone at home, and then have frequent short term and shallow affairs ("impulsivity" and "sensation-seeking", yes?). 90% of female sociopaths choose not to have children, and many of them seek out men who also do not want families. There are many possible equilibria, yes? The high functioning types will end up in relationship equilibria that work for them, that "solve" some of the problems they encounter in daily life and in society. And, these things give the psychopath exactly the same thing they give neurotypicals - perhaps a little status in society, perhaps a little stability at home, perhaps a platform from which to be adventurous and curious... 

So I mean, I wanted to take another crack at this idea of "harm", because the intelligent high functioning types are mostly quite aware of their condition, and are "mostly" able to manage any harm they might cause in the course of their daily lives. People like Tom seem to be able to manage it "specifically", like, target it very precisely. There are definitely those who can not control their behavior, and in some cases it only happens under very specific conditions (like, the narcissist may only get "weird" in a romantic context or one involving emotional intimacy, any other time they may seem perfectly normal), and it's only in a very few "very bad" cases that the behavior is completely out of control.

Not being a shrink, I'm not "entirely" sure, but I'd guess it would be possible to have the personality disorder without actually emitting any behavior that causes specific harm. That is to say, one could score high on the questionnaires, but still be smart enough and capable enough to control the resulting behavior. I'm not sure. 

Maybe that's a question for Tom - would you say there's any aspect of your behavior that's "out of your control"? (Maybe even little stuff, like for instance, "lying" seems to be one of the primary overt behaviors in this space, do you ever find yourself lying "compulsively" or in a manner you can't control?)

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## Neo

> Maybe that's a question for Tom - would you say there's any aspect of your behavior that's "out of your control"? (Maybe even little stuff, like for instance, "lying" seems to be one of the primary overt behaviors in this space, do you ever find yourself lying "compulsively" or in a manner you can't control?)



Yes!  I am an asshole, to be more precise I can totally be the biggest asshole you've ever met. My assholeness can come out of nowhere, to arguing to righting every other wrongs, like telling someone their rear lightbulb is out on their car and telling them "for fuck sake sort it out!"

Compulsively lying....yes!  What's so abnormal about that, but in my case I never admit to anything, lying saves the day...right?

Narcistic behaviour...yes! Everything revolves around me, I'm the most important thing in the world and I let everyone know about it, I'm special, I've always known I'm special.
My mother made allowances for me, but I've always expected premium attention from everyone I meet.

My wife agrees that medication to slow me down would be a good idea as I can go from 0......to 100mph in a flash over anything, it's always been this way, I've accepted it as being normal never thinking I may be odd one out.

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nonsqtr (08-25-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> I've accepted it as being normal never thinking I may be odd one out.


Really? You never felt like you were a little different or something? What about when you were a kid, you felt the same as all the other kids? No superpowers based on lack of guilt or remorse or fear or anxiety?

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## Neo

> Really? You never felt like you were a little different or something? What about when you were a kid, you felt the same as all the other kids? No superpowers based on lack of guilt or remorse or fear or anxiety?


Ive  always known I was different, more of everything kind of different, more energy, more alertness, always first to get in a queue for something, making sure I do not miss out on anything, louder...the list is quite long.
Fear...no not much, I've always been in control of what I can do, losing, I haven't had that fear in a long time.

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## Neo

When I was a teenager I played a lot of football, I made tackles as everyone does to win a ball, I purposely made a bad tackle on a lad I grew up with, I didn't like him much...bottom line I broke his leg, I remember not being fazed at all of what I had done to him.

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nonsqtr (08-25-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> When I was a teenager I played a lot of football, I made tackles as everyone does to win a ball, I purposely made a bad tackle on a lad I grew up with, I didn't like him much...bottom line I broke his leg, I remember not being fazed at all of what I had done to him.


Did you ever have any kind of formal diagnosis? For many it seems to happen during the difficult teenage years, because of stuff like you mentioned. You seem to be about the same age I am, when we were growing up there was no such thing as a "school nurse" and the shrinks had no idea what CD or OOD are. They called us "juvenile delinquents" back then. lol  :Wink: 

This is the exact area I'm interested in, because of my daughter. My little girl is 9 going on 19, and for various reasons I have to keep a careful eye on her behavior. So, I'd like to ask you a little about this, if I may. I'll ante up by telling you a little about myself.

Now... CD is something quite specific. To qualify for Conduct Disorder, you must have done at least three of the following within 12 months:

*Aggression to people and animals* 
(1) often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others 
	(2) often initiates physical fights 
	(3) has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., abat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun) 
	(4) has been physically cruel to people 
	(5) has been physically cruel to animals 
	(6) has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery) 
	(7) has forced someone into sexual activity 
*Destruction of property* 
(8) has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage 
	(9) has deliberately destroyed others' property (other than by fire setting)
*Deceitfulness or theft* 
(10) has broken into someone else's house, building, or car 
	(11) often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., "cons" others) 
	(12) has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery) 
*Serious violations of rules* 
(13) often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years 
	(14) has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period) 
	(15) is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years 


I qualify. As a matter of fact, I'm entirely certain that if it wasn't for a particular relationship I had in college, I would have become a full-blown sociopath and probably ended up in prison. 

Somewhere between the ages of 9 and 13, some awful stuff came out of me. I was a real sadist to some of the other kids on the playground. I tried to choke my cat, several times. I "almost" succeeded in molesting someone. I stole from my parents, from the school, from the other kids, from the store, even from my customers on the paper route. I had a whole collection of weapons, and I used to take them to school 'cause I'd plot about using them on someone and then chicken out at the last minute. I conned everyone, I used to con my mom's sewing customers just to see how far I could go before getting busted (and then I'd learn from my mistakes and make it a little farther the next time).

I have a passive version of the SCL6A4 allele that predisposes one to cluster B expression, however I've had the brain scans and my vmPFC seems perfectly normal, and the psych batteries say I'm within one standard deviation of the norm, so according to the experts that means that whatever caused all that behavior in me, was "environmental" in nature, and not "genetic". It means something happened during my early childhood, that caused me some trauma during important critical periods.

I never had a formal diagnosis. My parents would never have taken me to a shrink, there was so much stigma attached to that I would have had to be foaming at the mouth for that to happen. It just so happens later in life I had an episode of "major trauma" that resulted in PTSD, which resulted in a complete psych assessment and extensive therapy, and at that point the shrinks told me I had some peculiarities in my test results but there was nothing more important than nightmares and flashbacks at that point, so the stuff never really got looked at. At this point I don't think it matters anymore, I'm a happy camper and a family man with "many" anchors into society and I haven't engaged in any antisocial behavior for.... jeez.... twenty years at least (I don't even think I've broken the law in the last few years except for smoking an occasional joint, I'm really a very boring person now lol)

My genes are English, Irish, Scottish, and Swiss. And, I was reading yesterday that the incidence of psychopathy in England is twice that in the rest of Europe, and three times that in the rest of the world. The chick I mentioned in this thread is also English by descent. 

I am not naturally "hyper", however I'm naturally "extremely vigilant", and I'm also naturally "anxious". That last part, the anxiety, is why I smoke weed. My sensory milieu is a tiny bit too acute, and that applies equally to raw senses and to emotions, and even to cognitive activity. Stuff just registers on my consciousness a little too intensely, it gets overwhelming sometimes, even a little frightening in certain situations. The weed takes the edge off (it's practically the "only" thing that does, psych meds don't seem to work for me).

In terms of relationships, I've been exceedingly fortunate most of my life, the one I mentioned in this thread is definitely the odd one out. I attach to others very easily, perhaps too easily. (Although, if I was ever "gullible" about it, the chick in this thread probably cured me of that lol). I don't "drop" people, I actually make an effort to adhere to the protocol, take time for romantic closure, yadda yadda. Most of my "ex's" are still on board, somehow. The relationships that have ended, most of them just faded, dissipated - there's not one of them that was ever "contentious" (at the end, I mean - there may have been moments in the middle... lol  :Wink:  ).

Anyway, that's me, and I told you enough about my daughter so you kinda get the genetic picture. I'm curious about the adolescent behavior, anything you feel like sharing about that would be greatly appreciated Tom. I'm especially curious about any situations that made you feel "powerful" as an adolescent.

I'll give you an example: there was one time I got into a fight on the school yard, I must have been 10 years old maybe. There were maybe 50 or 60 kids gathered around, you know how kids are - we were in the middle of the circle. I had my opponent on his knees, I'd grabbed him "tight" by the hair and was ready to deliver the coup de grace, and at that moment I looked up, and I saw all these kids gathered around cheering, and I just stood there with my fist raised looking around, .... and something happened, something clicked in my brain, it was like, if I hit this guy it's all over and I lose all this power. I somehow intuitively realized that as long as I stood there with my fist raised, I was in total control. It was a very powerful feeling, it took some years to register what it was really all about. It was "sadism", yes? I was keeping this kid in a position of total submission, total fear, total "expectation", and I mean, the linkage of that realization with the feeling of power... it was awesome. Now, I'd call it "pathological", but back then it was totally freakin' awesome.  :Laughing4:   :Evil20:

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## nonsqtr

I take that back. I engaged in some serious antisocial behavior "just before" my daughter was born. I was in a foreign country with my band (that's why it happened lol), and I entered another country without a passport (that's B&E), and did something illegal (that's willful violation of codified social norms), and got chased out by the MP's (that's fleeing the law, which is another "serious violation of the rules" lol).

But I have an excuse, we were doing rock 'n' roll. "Stuff happens" when you do rock 'n' roll, everyone knows that. lol  :Smiley ROFLMAO: 

It was pretty f'in brazen though. We crossed the border from Chang Mai, they offered us a whole suitcase full of baht and we looked at each other and said WTF, we got nothin' to do for the next three days...

So like, I'm trying to frame this in perspective.... impulsive, sensation-seeking, high risk... yeah, I'm pretty sure the shrinks would say it was an episode of antisocial behavior. Even though the whole point of it was to bring rock 'n' roll to people who don't usually have it (make them antisocial too lmao).  :Wink: 

But that was the last time. I swear. I'm pretty sure.... lol  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## Neo

From one particular fight at school I learned something, to get respect you have to be different, after this particular fight I was elevated to hard core in the pecking order of boys in school.
Looking back I remember my opponent was pretty much doing a very good job on me, he was out boxing me and making me look clumsy.
For me the Gods looked down on me kindly that day, some would call it luck. Whilst we were fighting he notices his shoe laces are undone, he puts up his hands and says "stop for a minute"
He kneels down to tie his shoelaces.

The guy I beat that day has forever been deferential to me, we grew up in the same area, drank in the same bars as adults, but one thing has been constant, he has always feared me.

Im not ashamed of what I did, fighting has no rules, if you fight you must win, it's that simple.. on that day he knelt down to tie his shoelaces I delivered an uppercut so strong it knocked him over a small hedge, he landed on his back to which I leapt into him and gave him 10-12 unanswered punches to his head before being pulled off and seeing him out for the count. In layman terms "I knocked the shit out of him"

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nonsqtr (08-29-2017)

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## patrickt

I met Al Gore. Would that count? I also met a few governors. I met too many murders, rapists, and incestuous parents and step-parents. Would they count?

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## Neo

> I met Al Gore. Would that count? I also met a few governors. I met too many murders, rapists, and incestuous parents and step-parents. Would they count?


By your own admission you are an ex cop, you are by profession the most experienced person on this board that has dealt with every kind of personable behaviour, it would be interesting to hear of some bad experiences of dealing with people like me?

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## patrickt

> By your own admission you are an ex cop, you are by profession the most experienced person on this board that has dealt with every kind of personable behaviour, it would be interesting to hear of some bad experiences of dealing with people like me?


I don't know you. As you describe yourself, I wouldn't consider you much different than any other adolescent who never grew up. Adolescence isn't, in my opinion, an age. It's a sense that you're the center of the universe, your needs not only come first but are all that matter, and, more than anything else, you think you're special.

Examples of permanent adolescents are "vote your own self-interest" Democrats, greedy people who will do anything to get a buck from anyone they can fool such as used car salesmen selling junk cars and boiler room operators selling worthless stocks. Disgusting but nothing special. No, I don't think your average liberal, spoiled adolescent reaches the level of a sociopath. You wouldn't really want to know either one.

Now, a man who was special lived in our town. When he was twelve a neighbor boy a few years younger had surgery for an descended testicle. He met Charlie in the yard and when asked about his surgery told Charlie about it. Charlie drop-kicked the boy in the balls, ripped the stitches open, and ran home laughing. That's a whole 'nother level of mean. Charlie peaked by stabbing a 19-year old woman he'd never met a minimum of 39 times.

There's a difference between a sociopath and a permanent adolescent. Both are unpleasant but a sociopath I met, when asked why he made a store clerk kneel and then shot him in the head looked confused, shrugged, and said, "Why not?"

Another sociopath and a friend murdered a man and explained, "He was a good ole boy and we didn't want to hurt him but we needed his car so what else could we do?" They tried to kill him quick and painless and got very angry when he wouldn't die.

Another man murdered his mother, grandmother, and a friend of theirs who happened to be visiting. He wanted us to understand it wasn't his fault. "I needed money and they wouldn't give it to me. What else could I do?" I suggested he could have gotten a job and he just laughed.

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## Neo

> I don't know you.


Thats true.

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## patrickt

Another example is Ted Bundy. A friend of mine, another police officer, had a cousin who was hitchhiking on I-70 in the high country and disappeared. It was learned, much later, that Ted Bundy was on that highway at that time. When Ted Bundy was awaiting execution the girl's brother got permission to see Ted Bundy in prison. He asked Ted Bundy, just to put his parents minds at ease, if he'd killed his sister. Bundy said, "What's in it for me?" The man said, "They're executing you in a week. I guess there nothing in it for you." "Then why should I care?" That ended the meeting.

Another example of a perpetual adolescent is President Bill Clinton. It's mind boggling to think a man that bright can be that stupid until you realize his still functioning as a 17-year old.

Another sociopath might be Sen. Harry Reid. When asked if he regretted lying he sneered, shrugged, and said, "Why? He didn't win, did he?"

I dealt with very few evil people. A lot of adolescents of all ages and some seriously stupid people. A man who kidnapped a college girl, took her to Wyoming, raped her three times, and then stole her car was interrogated for two hours by two FBI agents interested in the kidnapping and interstate transportation of a stolen car. The idiot refused to admit anything. When they finished I asked if I could talk to him. "Sure. He won't talk."

I smiled and said, "I don't blame you for not talking. If I tried to screw a woman and couldn't get it up I wouldn't talk about it either."

"Couldn't get it up? I did her three times." See? Seriously stupid.

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## Neo

When I was younger I swam for my county, attending practice sessions before school and after school, physically back then I was in one of the best conditions I've ever been.
Plenty of fine looking girls my age were in the sessions, one particular girl caught my eye, red haired if memory serves me correctly.
At the city pool they had a high diving team, they practiced but kept themselves aloof from the rest of us swimmers.
One guy took a fancy to the girl I liked and gave me a hard time, she could see there might be conflict so she split.
His name was kirk, he was 3 years older than me, he had a brother the same age as me. Back then I realised things don't stay the same, one day I would be the same size as him and more than a match. His brother was no trouble but I never forgot how Kirk had behaved.
Kirk worked in an office, electrical engineering I believe, company car, he was flash.
The years went by and I matured, from my job a hairy arsed plumber I developed quite nicely, it was my time to be the bully....but this is the part I still don't understand, I didn't hurt in any way this individual, I could have quite easily, back then I was an animal.
It must have be that I realised I could have...if I wanted to.

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nonsqtr (08-29-2017)

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## nonsqtr

> There's a difference between a sociopath and a permanent adolescent.


Matter of degree? 

As a cop you're probably familiar with the PCL-R. The kind of people you're talking about, the instrumental types, they've had a scary adolescence. A typical event might be dousing a neighbor's dog with lighter fluid and lighting it on fire, because it barks too much. These people score above 3.6 on the PCL, and the risk for recidivism is near 100%.

But this stuff begins early, long before adolescence. What happens during adolescence is the brain defects get "wired in", and there's little further hope for treatment. 

Dunno if I posted this before, but here for example, is a pre-adolescent female with "Conduct Disorder", which is a diagnostic requirement for ASPD/DPD.




This is one of the difficulties with diagnosis. The above child is obviously highly disturbed. And, while I qualify for CD "in retrospect" just because I try to answer the questions honestly, I was never anywhere near as bad as this child. In fact, from a slightly different perspective, the stuff I did is not unusual, it's no more unusual than any other teenager's adolescence. Turns out 2/3 of adolescents engage in "some form of molestation" at some point, 60% engage in animal cruelty, that kind of thing. So even if you can answer the questionnaire in such a way that you qualify, doesn't mean you're a danger to society.

For every instrumental psychopath there are nine high functioning sociopaths who have "enough" on the ball that they don't want to screw up their lives by being incarcerated. So they become "very careful" about certain behaviors. Some of them even use "surrogates" and egg them on into behaviors they won't do themselves.

You can "somewhat" measure the degree of psychopathy, in those individual with a genetic predisposition. There are certain brain changes that are characteristic in biological psychopathy (particularly the varieties that involve MAO), and if they show up in the parietal and temporal lobes it means you have a "bad case", very likely with a full set of lexical deficits and "near total" paucity of affect and all the rest.

However in a high functioning sociopath the degree of visible brain abnormality may be restricted to an area about a third the size of a pea. And it may only be "visible" electrically, not anatomically. (Until after death when you can section the brain and stain for proteins, but until then you can't see anything unusual in an MRI).

Here is an example of how this plays in real life - one of the characteristics of sociopathy is "irresponsibility", and often it has to do with money. The chick in this thread, is scrupulous with money, she's very careful. She owns her own business, and out of all the crazy shit I've ever seen her do none of it had anything to do with money. She doesn't steal money from anyone, she's not recklessly impulsive in terms of giving away her own, she is ... "conservative" with her money. She's entirely irresponsible with other stuff, like she'll show up an hour late for a dinner date and then start flirting with someone across the room - but when it comes to money, it turns out her father drilled into her at a very young age that money is a vital resource and how to handle it. So like, the relationship stuff has to do with adolescence, but the money came before that. Gnome sain'? 

There's a couple other things about biological psychopaths that distinguish them from ordinary sociopaths. One is that they don't learn from negative reinforcement, and the other is that they don't extinguish conditioned reflexes. You gotta think about that one for a while, to understand its significance. You can not "punish" a psychopath, it won't work.

This child in the video - here's the behavior you can expect from her in adulthood: if you date this woman and you're in bed with her and you have to reposition her (like, move her butt over a few inches or something), you can expect to see her react violently, her fists will ball up like she's ready to smack you "real hard", and her entire body will contract in preparation. It's an "unextinguished conditioned reflex". It will not extinguish for years in a psychopath - like.... twenty years. If the abuse took place at age six, the behavior will still be visible at age 26, and maybe even 36.

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----------


## nonsqtr

I'm learning a whole lot about this real fast. "Talking to the experts", I am. So, here's how it plays. I've been studying mutations in a gene called SCL6A4, which codes for a "serotonin transporter" protein, but the same situation applies to other common biological variants like MAO-A and MAO-L. All of these "biological predispositions" for sociopathy affect monoamine neurons in the brainstem, and specifically serotonin.

There are eighteen critical periods in these systems, during which brain wiring is "locked into place". These begin around age 10, and are usually completed by age 16 "or so". The requirement for sociopathic behavior, is that one or more of these critical periods be missed somehow, either because of underlying biochemical predispositions, or because of environmental factors that render the brain wiring "incapable" of completing itself and locking itself into place into its proper targets.

If there is a strong genetic component that disrupts the system reliably and on its own, that's called a "genetic psychopath".

If there is a "genetic predisposition" and that is coupled with environmental factors that bring it out, that's called a "Type II psychopath", or variously a "biological" psychopath or a "developmental" psychopath.

If there is no genetic predisposition and the behavior is caused exclusively by environmental factors, that's called an "acquired sociopath".

So, anything that causes the brain to miss one or more of these critical periods for the monoamine neurons in the brainstem, will result in sociopathic behavior later in life. It's when you start looking at the "flavors" of this behavior that things get really interesting.

In terms of brain scans, the primary symptom of sociopathy is a dysfunctional connection between the amygdala and a tiny little pea-sized portion of the frontal cortex. But that part of the amygdala is responsible for the conscious assessment of affect, in other words, it's what gets feelings up into your consciousness. "Feelings" are more complicated than just love or hate or pleasure or pain, feelings include how your gut feels at any given moment (for instance), and that information travels up from the pyloric plexus into the hypothalamus, and from there into the amygdala. You can derive feelings by observing others, for instance when you see a smile or a frown on someone else's face, and that information travels through the visual areas of the superior temporal lobe and from there to the amygdala. So, the amygdala "collects" all different kinds of feelings from all over the place, and it funnels them into a large cell group in the basal forebrain called the Nucleus Accumbens - but in doing so, it's also being regulated by several areas in the cortex as well as by the hippocampus....

Well... look at the innervations of the serotonin neurons in the brain stem. All these cell groups are labeled "B", there's B1 through B9 (B6 being anatomically the largest). The map goes kinda like this: B7 -> amygdala, B8 -> hippocampus, septum, VTA, B9 -> vmPFC, A8, A6, and all other serotonin cell groups. So what you have here, is a system regulating the perception and valuation of emotions, and it's all being controlled by a small group of serotonin cells in the brainstem.

In the amygdala, the place where the feelings collect, there are two types of neurons - one responds to "presence or absence", and the other responds to "how much". So for example, if you had a neuron responding to a smile on someone else's face, the first kind would indicate the presence of the smile, and the second kind would indicate its intensity.

In sociopaths, this system is either damaged, badly damaged, or entirely nonfunctional.  

Now - it should be noted, that not all psychopaths become sociopaths. There are "pro-social" psychopaths that generally don't hate others, except they're assholes once in a while 'cause they just can't help themselves (or another way of looking at it is, they're "pretty much" in control of their behavior, but not "entirely fully").

And among sociopaths (whether they are biologically psychopathic or whether the brain damage has been acquired by environmental factors), there are "narcissistic" sociopaths where the antisocial behavior expresses itself primarily in the context of relationships and emotional intimacy - and in the brain you'd expect that kind of behavior to center on the hypothalamus because that's where all the sexual stuff is, all the hormones are there, all the reproductive behavior is there, etc etc. And, there are "instrumental" sociopaths where the behavior is most closely tied in with specific goals and advance planning, and that kind of thing has mainly to do with the dopamine-related systems, which implies the connection to cell group A8 (a dopamine cluster called "substantia nigra"). Biological psychopaths also have lexical deficits that don't typically appear in acquired sociopathy, and those types of things are back in the parietal and posterior temporal lobes, which implies the connection to cell group A6 (a noradrenaline cluster called "locus coeruleus").

The role of the cerebral cortex is mostly to inhibit behavior, or in this case, inhibit feelings. An example would be, you see someone frown, but the situation is such that you realize the person is frowning about "something else", not related to you, not frowning "at" you. So, the cerebral cortex might inhibit any "response" to that frown, even though the brain may already have prepared one.

So, when you start looking at things this way, all this stuff starts "making sense", at least in a superficial way. What's happened is the serotonin system that coordinates this massive "emotional processing" circuit, is broken. The serotonin that regulates "how much feeling" gets up into the consciousness, is dysfunctional. So when you start looking more carefully at some of the symptoms they start making a lot more sense - 

"Impulsivity" has a lot to do with failing to inhibit behavior on the basis of social norms or other "inhibitory" factors.

"Sensation seeking" is the effort to compensate for the paucity of baseline affect.

"Grandiosity" comes from the advantage of being unencumbered by the "inhibition" of guilt and fear like other people are - and the further consequence is usually a value system that tolerates the dishing out of confusion and pain (because there is no feeling of "responsibility" for other peoples' feelings).

"Manipulation" is a logical coping mechanism to compensate for the difficulty with interpersonal affect. Although the emotional systems may be broken, the logical systems are perfectly intact, and it makes logical sense that if you can't coax a person emotionally, you'd do it some other way.

Biologically speaking, all this is a big whammy. The serotonin systems control "just about everything", they're even involved with sleep. We're looking at a cascade of events, a chain reaction in response to broken serotonin, that begins in the amygdala where the emotions collect, and ripples outward from there into all the systems that regulate it and all the systems that are regulated by it.

The effect of a missed critical period is more than just missing or misplaced synapses. The numbers of neurons are determined by the wiring densities, so there may be more white matter in some areas of the brains of sociopaths. The large number of missing synapses may change the EEG and the evoked potential structure, so for example psychopaths display anomalies in the early P300. The lack of affective regulation ripples backwards into reproductive behavior, sociopaths (especially the narcissistic variety) are often "promiscuous". All these things are second and third degree effects, rippling outward from the primary deficit in serotonin reuptake and its direct effect on the wiring of the serotonin systems during the critical periods.

It is possible that in one person, only cell group B9 was affected (this is likely to occur in an environmental case, which may affect only one critical period while the trauma is occurring), while in another person, "all" serotonin clusters may be affected (this is likely the situation in a diploid psychopath). Therefore, some sociopaths will only clobber those they hate, and some will only clobber those they're romantically involved with, while others will clobber anyone and everyone.  :Wink: 

This is fascinating stuff, lately I've seen several examples of the triple whammy (that's abuse and neglect on top of bad genes), and... it gets me real humble real quick. The smart ones can be pretty terrifying, it's clear there's "switches" that turn on and off in the brain but it's entirely unclear what controls them. The behaviors confer survival advantage, that's why they're in the gene pool. Psychopaths make excellent warriors, they're impulsive and they like to take risks, and they don't feel much fear and aren't generally inhibited by moral constraints - plus they're promiscuous and tend to breed lots more little psychopathic warriors.  :Wink:

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## FlameHeart

> No. You're talking about "criminal" behavior. Yes, it is true, there is that - which is why the jails are full of psychopaths. However, not all psychopaths are violent, and not all of them engage in theft or kidnapping or mass murder, and not all sociopaths are "harmful" per se.
> 
> It is important to understand the vocabulary, and be very specific about it. "Sociopath" is a description of behavior, whereas "psychopath" is a description of the underlying medical condition.
> 
> 
> 
> No. "Sociopath" means something very specific. It's a psychiatric diagnosis, it has nothing to do with being in jail or harming anyone. (However, they "look at" that stuff, it's part of the diagnosis, but it's certainly not the only thing).
> Psychiatry-land is all about behavior, they go out of their way not to make any assumptions about underlying conditions. There are "many" underlying conditions that can result in sociopathic behavior, there is narcissism, there is avoidant personality disorder and even substance abuse. The technical term for sociopathy is "anti-social personality disorder" or ASPD, in terms of the DSM it's a 301.7. In the related ICD codes which are recognized by the WHO, sociopathy is F60.2 and it's called "dissocial personality disorder" or DPD. 
> 
> ...


Actually, I have AvPD, psychotic depression, GAD, ADD, and Social Anxiety Disorder. And traits (but do not meet the full-blown criteria) of BPD (4/9) and PTSD. 

Sociopathy and AvPD, while they are both personality disorders and can't relate to people too well, are very very different. AvPD is in cluster C of personality disorders, which described "worried" personality disorders, while ASPD is in cluster B, the "Wild" personalities. Us Avoidants avoid people because of extreme shyness and social anxiety, which usually has the added symptoms of feeling inferior or "not good enough," and using avoidance as a primary way of dealing with things. It also has its roots in attachment. We typically don't get in trouble with the law or hurt someone else (or we try not to) unless we are comorbid with something else. 

ASPD on the other hand, does cause legal issues and harm to others. 

Think of AvPD as more like the peaceful Bonobos whereas ASPD is more lIke Chimpanzees.

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nonsqtr (01-19-2021)

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## FlameHeart

> Matter of degree? 
> 
> As a cop you're probably familiar with the PCL-R. The kind of people you're talking about, the instrumental types, they've had a scary adolescence. A typical event might be dousing a neighbor's dog with lighter fluid and lighting it on fire, because it barks too much. These people score above 3.6 on the PCL, and the risk for recidivism is near 100%.
> 
> But this stuff begins early, long before adolescence. What happens during adolescence is the brain defects get "wired in", and there's little further hope for treatment. 
> 
> Dunno if I posted this before, but here for example, is a pre-adolescent female with "Conduct Disorder", which is a diagnostic requirement for ASPD/DPD.
> 
> 
> ...


The girl in the video is named Beth, and she actually had Reactive Attachment Disorder. Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD) typically manifests in children who are SEVERELY neglected starting from ages 5 and under, perhaps abused. Research has shown that kids with RAD are more likely to develop ASPD, which is basically sociopathy.

I think you'll be quite relieved to hear that Beth is all grown up and she is a nurse (I think she's an RN)  who runs a camp for kids who have RAD and their adoptive parents. She's so sweet, too!

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nonsqtr (01-19-2021)

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## darroll

> Including lieing, stealing , Internet liable and slander, and even reporting you to law enforcement officials for non-existent crimes.


I was going to say no...
But sense reading this I changed my mind. Love to see the fur fly if I mentioned a name(s).
Just give them enough rope.

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## Authentic

I've met several Democrats. Doesn't that count?

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FlameHeart (01-19-2021),nonsqtr (01-19-2021)

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## darroll

[QUOTE=QuaseMarco;1454770]11 Signs You May Be Dating A Sociopath | HuffPost
*RED FLAG #5. Staying eerily calm in scary or dangerous situations. (this proves I'm nuts)
 RED FLAG #7. Having few friends. (they all died)* /QUOTE]

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## darroll

> I am the same.  When something bad happens, I am the one that takes care of the details while others are rolling around sobbing.  I never lose myself doing that.  But it's not because I am a sociopath.  I internalize the grief. It can wreak havoc on my body, but I don't show it on the outside and I can, during the time necessary, put it in a place so that I can take care of business.
> 
> I agree that it's best to save the emotions for later sometimes.  It's what I do.


 That is called a Chinese fire drill.
People sit on the ground and cry while their house burns down.

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## darroll

> Psychopaths are dangerous only if they are on the other side of the law. They are excellent hit men, mass murderers, and people don't see it coming because of their lack of emotion. .


No,
Just when i thought I was a Psychopath, fun thread

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## Call_me_Ishmael

[QUOTE=darroll;2676215]


> 11 Signs You May Be Dating A Sociopath | HuffPost
> *RED FLAG #5. Staying eerily calm in scary or dangerous situations. (this proves I'm nuts)
>  RED FLAG #7. Having few friends. (they all died)* /QUOTE]


I had a relationship with a woman who I just assessed as having all but 1 of those.  I'm lucky to be alive but she lives in another country and won't be knocking on my door. It was intense.

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## FlameHeart

Here's the full documentary of Beth when she's around six. She's talking to a clinical psychologist in the beginning.
WARNING: Some of the things that she says are quite disturbing, especially for a young child. Viewer discretion is advised.'

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## FlameHeart

This is Beth now- her full name is Beth Thomas. I stand corrected in that she has her RN and BSN



Beth Thomas: the Psychopath Little Girl - Exploring your mind
^ Sort of a biography about her. It does describe her as a little sociopath or psychopath, and says that she only learned to pretend so that she could better fit into society, which is kind of disheartening.

Here's another article written about her, and describes some of the things she does at the camp. (I also stand corrected in that she runs the camp; it's actually her adoptive mother. Beth I think is a counselor or a psych nurse there). She has also written several books for parents who are trying to parent a kid with RAD.

SFF: Documentary details struggles of children with attachment disorder

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OneDumbBlonde (01-29-2021)

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## FlameHeart

I, too, have seen kids with RAD. I lived with two of them when I was first hospitalized in Shadow Mountain in January of 2015.

One came from Threshold which was the residential unit for boys and was multi purposed as the unit for child sexual predators. The other kid I think came from the adjacent ward, 2 West (I was on 1 West, the acute ward for adolescents since I was 17). The latter kid was carried onto the unit restrained by six staff including two security guards, and he was basically thrown into the hallway where our rooms are. That's all I'm going to talk about now since I know that this thread isn't about RAD, but some of these kids can truly be very scary- especially when you are living with one or two.

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## Jen

> That is called a Chinese fire drill.
> People sit on the ground and cry while their house burns down.


I have known people who actually would do that sort of thing.

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## Call_me_Ishmael

Borderline Personality Disorder..... 

In case anyone would like to sample sociopath-lite.

Yeah I know... they are different... but only a shrink could tell the difference.

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## Gator Monroe

In the line in every Motorbike race I ever entered (from Amateur Class on )

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## 12icer

Who is not a sociopath, I thought we all were? You mean I am the only one?

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BooBoo (01-29-2021),darroll (01-29-2021)

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## patrickt

> Borderline Personality Disorder..... 
> 
> In case anyone would like to sample sociopath-lite.
> 
> Yeah I know... they are different... but only a shrink could tell the difference.


Perhaps, but as a cop I dealt with a number of psychologists and psychiatrists and most could tell shit from shinola. Most had done nothing beyond reading books.

The labels they come up with are really meaningless. A young man stabbed a young woman he'd never met, didn't know, a minimum of 39 times. While he jail awaiting trial he wrote me saying he wanted to be a police office when the problem was taken care of. He was, of course, found not guilty by reason of insanity and sent to the state hospital where he was cured in six months and ready to be released into society. During the six months he'd dealt only with men. We arranged for him to be interviewed by a woman and he quickly tried to attack her.

I worked with government employees and most politicians who had no concept of ethical behavior. Rather like Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Lyndon Johnson, and Fredo and the Lemon. If it benefits them, it's good, if it doesn't, it's bad, and what right or wrong is based on nothing except how it effects them. I was offered a promotion on the condition I promise to do whatever the boss said. I said I'd appreciate the promotion but I would not promise to do whatever the boss said. The personnel director said, "Pat, it's not that tough." For him, it wasn't.

Consider how many politicians in 2020 imposed draconian restrictions on the serfs and then flaunted his/her violations of the rules with impunity. You can call the sociopaths or Democrats or denizens of the swamp, or Deep State Operatives.

An extreme. A man was asked why he made a clerk in a convenience store kneel and then shot him in the back of the head. The man looked confused and said, "Why not?"

I've known sociopaths. I've even known psychologists and psychiatrists who were sociopaths.

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Call_me_Ishmael (01-20-2021)

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## Trinnity

> This is a serious question.
> 
> And I think it's probably directed at those of you who know what is sociopath actually is.
> 
> The question is have you ever actually met one?
> 
> I'm 57 years old, and not being a forensic psychologist or anything, I'm pretty sure I just met my first real live sociopath.
> 
> This one is a mild case. Because the person is still running around (ie not institutionalized).
> ...


I was dating/living with one for a while. He was bipolar.

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## OneDumbBlonde

> Here's the full documentary of Beth when she's around six. She's talking to a clinical psychologist in the beginning.
> WARNING: Some of the things that she says are quite disturbing, especially for a young child. Viewer discretion is advised.'





> This is Beth now- her full name is Beth Thomas. I stand corrected in that she has her RN and BSN
> 
> 
> 
> Beth Thomas: the Psychopath Little Girl - Exploring your mind
> ^ Sort of a biography about her. It does describe her as a little sociopath or psychopath, and says that she only learned to pretend so that she could better fit into society, which is kind of disheartening.
> 
> Here's another article written about her, and describes some of the things she does at the camp. (I also stand corrected in that she runs the camp; it's actually her adoptive mother. Beth I think is a counselor or a psych nurse there). She has also written several books for parents who are trying to parent a kid with RAD.
> 
> SFF: Documentary details struggles of children with attachment disorder


I saw that documentary when it first came out.  It broke my heart.

I'd forgotten about it, but was curious about how she would turn out - if her healing was actually possible.  Thanks for the links about her now.  It's very awesome to know.

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## Gator Monroe

A few Guys here Ex Wives could chime in

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## donttread

> This is a serious question.
> 
> And I think it's probably directed at those of you who know what is sociopath actually is.
> 
> The question is have you ever actually met one?
> 
> I'm 57 years old, and not being a forensic psychologist or anything, I'm pretty sure I just met my first real live sociopath.
> 
> This one is a mild case. Because the person is still running around (ie not institutionalized).
> ...



Sure I have, often without knowing it. They are not all crazed killers in fact on personality test it might be hard to differentiate them from a CEO. Except for that whole self control and delayed gratification business. Depending on exact definition some readings suggest 1/100 qualify. Personally I believe their is a scale of partial loss of empathy, but I have never read that. I'm also sure i met a few during my counseling days.

What did you run into?

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## teeceetx

Yes, I personally know one.

She is both predictable and pathetic in her thought processing, if you know what to look for.

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## Neo

My elder brother is one, I’ve hated him since I was 5 years old. He pushed me into a dark pantry, my little finger was squashed in the door flat and no amount of banging the door would make him open it.

Both my parents pacified him, they turned the other way and of course he learnt to be sly, viscous, bad tempered. My father always hoped he would be like me, thoughtful, kind, respectful to people.

As the years went by I realised he wasn’t like a normal bloke, he would use his friends like they were toys at times, he was a loose cannon.

When I was 23 and expecting my second child we had words, he hit me in the street knocking me down, of course he wasn’t dealing with a little brother anymore, I got up and overpowered him, I gave him the biggest beating with my fists I’ve gave anyone.

We didn’t see each other for over 10 years, I would always check the street if his car was near my parents house before visiting them, on the odd occasion I was there he’d walk in and I’d walk out not bothering to look at each other.

The last time I saw my brother was at my mothers funeral in 2014.

My brother has admitted to killing someone to me, he was perfectly sober. Not wanting to know anything I ignored his admission.

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## darroll

I was just commenting and the lights went out twice.. I have stand by power covering my goodies. (A 110 volt battery)
I find that you can't say you are not a sociopath as someone will say, see he is in denial.
My wife is Monk.
I had a family member that was strange but I didn't fear for my well being.
My poor X had problems but I think her mom hitting her on the head with a steel pipe didn't help. You could feel the groove on her skull left by the pipe when she was young.
I believe in self inflicted vengeance. Leave them alone and they will self destruct. (No contact at all)

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## Dan40

> This is a serious question.
> 
> And I think it's probably directed at those of you who know what is sociopath actually is.
> 
> The question is have you ever actually met one?
> 
> I'm 57 years old, and not being a forensic psychologist or anything, I'm pretty sure I just met my first real live sociopath.
> 
> This one is a mild case. Because the person is still running around (ie not institutionalized).
> ...


Picked up a hitchhiker.  He was thankful but asked wasn't I afraid he might be a serial killer? What are the odds of 2 serial killers in one car, I asked??????   Not a serious answer.....

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BooBoo (01-29-2021),darroll (01-30-2021)

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## BooBoo

> Who is not a sociopath, I thought we all were? You mean I am the only one?



LMOL... Your Sig says it all...!!!  :Thumbsup20:

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## Call_me_Ishmael

> Picked up a hitchhiker.  He was thankful but asked wasn't I afraid he might be a serial killer? What are the odds of 2 serial killers in one car, I asked??????   Not a serious answer.....


He pooped his pants.
No doubt

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BooBoo (01-29-2021)

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## JustPassinThru

> I was just commenting and the lights went out twice.. I have stand by power covering my goodies. (A 110 volt battery)


Neat trick.

Most batteries are in multiples of 12.  A 120-volt battery would be ten twelve-volt batteries wired together; or further broken down by 1.2, which is what individual cells produce.

In any event, battery power is DC.  Not interchangeable with AC, unless you have a complex inverter that does sine-wave simulation and allows for battery voltage/amperage fluctuation.

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## nonsqtr

> Sure I have, often without knowing it. They are not all crazed killers in fact on personality test it might be hard to differentiate them from a CEO. Except for that whole self control and delayed gratification business. Depending on exact definition some readings suggest 1/100 qualify. Personally I believe their is a scale of partial loss of empathy, but I have never read that. I'm also sure i met a few during my counseling days.
> 
> What did you run into?


The biologicals have a "syndrome" of related deficits. There is a lexical deficit related to the processing of emotional content, if they read a bunch of words and you ask them what they just read they fail to understand social words and emotional words. There are physical anomalies in the brain structure too, usually around the septum in the front of the brain, and cells in the anterior cingulate cortex sometimes look like they've been pushed apart, away from the midline.

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## darroll

> Neat trick.
> 
> Most batteries are in multiples of 12.  A 120-volt battery would be ten twelve-volt batteries wired together; or further broken down by 1.2, which is what individual cells produce.
> 
> In any event, battery power is DC.  Not interchangeable with AC, unless you have a complex inverter that does sine-wave simulation and allows for battery voltage/amperage fluctuation.


Yes I have a inverter.

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