# Stuff and Things > HISTORY, veterans & science >  Fear of being fooled

## Call_me_Ishmael

I have long recognized this fear in some people.  Its defense often manifests itself as cynicism or pessimism under the belief that expecting only the worst will never open you up to disappointment or accusations of childish naivete or ignorance of the "way things really are".

Such people seem to always lack hope. I had an aunt like that. 

Anyway... I've seen this for a long time but only recently saw the behavioral science community incorporate this fear as a factor in determining what choices a person will make. And that's on me because maybe they have been doing this for a long time.

The fear of being fooled is an aversion to the consequences of a decision.  Certainly there is the ostensible issue being decided. Whether it is to minimize risk of harm or risk of financial loss, a decision presents itself to a "decider". Ok... we kinda understand that. Kinda. But then there is this extra little aspect of human nature tacked on... per se, the fear of being fooled. And in some very abbreviated reading that I've done, the researcher mentions that a part of that fear is the risk in social status that a decider will have if they make the wrong choice .... in other words, if they are fooled what will people think about them. 

One cannot dig into this decision making business without addressing the issue of uncertainty that the decider has in the available information.


I have no point to make here at this time other than to say I observe the covid era and this forum in particular to be a perfect petri dish of behaviors. And I think that none of the behaviors can be understood without considering - in addition to fear of physical harm, fear of death, fear of totalitarianism - fear of being fooled. And my guess is that if you could quantify the weights of these fears when a decider is making his decision for where to stand on the issues, that the fear of being fooled has a weight comparable to the others....because we are social creatures.

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Captain Kirk! (09-27-2021),donttread (09-27-2021),East of the Beast (09-27-2021),Foghorn (09-27-2021),OldSchool (09-27-2021),OneDumbBlonde (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-27-2021),Quark (09-20-2022),Thom Paine (09-27-2021)

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## East of the Beast

I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those who refuse to. My thought on that is they gave into the hype and are afraid they may have made a rash decision and fucked up. The only way to sway that fear is convince themselves they are the rational ones and the unvaxed are the fools.

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El Guapo (09-28-2021),OneDumbBlonde (09-28-2021),patrickt (09-28-2021),Thom Paine (09-27-2021),YellowRose (09-27-2021)

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## donttread

> I have long recognized this fear in some people.  Its defense often manifests itself as cynicism or pessimism under the belief that expecting only the worst will never open you up to disappointment or accusations of childish naivete or ignorance of the "way things really are".
> 
> Such people seem to always lack hope. I had an aunt like that. 
> 
> Anyway... I've seen this for a long time but only recently saw the behavioral science community incorporate this fear as a factor in determining what choices a person will make. And that's on me because maybe they have been doing this for a long time.
> 
> The fear of being fooled is an aversion to the consequences of a decision.  Certainly there is the ostensible issue being decided. Whether it is to minimize risk of harm or risk of financial loss, a decision presents itself to a "decider". Ok... we kinda understand that. Kinda. But then there is this extra little aspect of human nature tacked on... per se, the fear of being fooled. And in some very abbreviated reading that I've done, the researcher mentions that a part of that fear is the risk in social status that a decider will have if they make the wrong choice .... in other words, if they are fooled what will people think about them. 
> 
> One cannot dig into this decision making business without addressing the issue of uncertainty that the decider has in the available information.
> ...




Great thread, we need more topics like this.  Interesting stuff. It fits too as I find people are more willing to be pleasantly surprised than buying in and finding out you were wrong. Must be especially bad for those who suffer from the  "I'm never wrong"  personality trait.I find it and other personality/psychology topics especially interesting these days because of the whole mind control thing going on. Unrelated but  I have heard and have no problem believing , that politicians study how to lie in body language. If true it destroys the old line that politicians only lie when their lips are moving.

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Foghorn (09-27-2021),OneDumbBlonde (09-28-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

> I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those who refuse to. My thought on that is they gave into the hype and are afraid they may have made a rash decision and fucked up. The only way to sway that fear is convince themselves they are the rational ones and the unvaxed are the fools.


I trust you do know it can be viewed the other way too. And - lacking virtually any analytical tools to ascertain truth or falsity - they have an increased uncertainty factor that makes the  "fear of being fooled" a stronger fear with those people.  But... true... the already vaxed people have some of that too. The difference is that the vaxed made a decision.


But let's not dwell on that.

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> I trust you do know it can be viewed the other way too. And - lacking virtually any analytical tools to ascertain truth or falsity - they have an increased uncertainty factor that makes the  "fear of being fooled" a stronger fear with those people.  But... true... the already vaxed people have some of that too.
> 
> 
> But let's not dwell on that.


OK, it can work both ways, point being it is a coping mechanism.

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Foghorn (09-27-2021),OneDumbBlonde (09-28-2021)

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## YellowRose

> I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. *They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those who refuse to.* My thought on that is they gave into the hype and are afraid they may have made a rash decision and fucked up. The only way to sway that fear is convince themselves they are the rational ones and the unvaxed are the fools.


I believe it's the "safety in numbers" crowd who feels this way (in the bolded).

It's essentially no longer acceptable with a good many Americans, especially those on the left, to be an individualist and make one's own path ones own way.

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East of the Beast (09-27-2021),OneDumbBlonde (09-28-2021)

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## Authentic

> I believe it's the "safety in numbers" crowd who feels this way (in the bolded).
> 
> It's essentially no longer acceptable with a good many Americans, especially those on the left, to be an individualist and make one's own path ones own way.


America has to lose its individualist credo, be flooded with third world "refugees", and transformed into a Chinese anthill.

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OneDumbBlonde (09-28-2021)

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## Foghorn

Very interesting topic and a timely one too.

There are groups that are actively going after Facebook right now stating their "system" is intentionally designed to make people feel bad about themselves, especially women.  How they could prove that or what benefit it offers to Facebook is a puzzler but these groups do state they have a ton of proof.

Investment books also talk about emotions, especially fear, when making dollar and cents decisions.  They typically agree that the fear of losing money far outweighs the fear of missing out on making profits for most people.

Artificial intelligence comes into play in both the above examples since computer programs do most of the day to day heavy lifting.  But AI is also used in marketing, the military, and all sorts of "sciences" these days.  How they program emotions such as fear and social desire "to belong" is way beyond me, but they definitely have to program for these things as they are the keys to success.

For all I know some computer is responsible for making me want to throw a shoe at the TV every time these asinine commercials keep coming on.  Is the whole point to make me scream?

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donttread (09-28-2021),East of the Beast (09-27-2021),OneDumbBlonde (09-28-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

> Very interesting topic and a timely one too.
> 
> There are groups that are actively going after Facebook right now stating their "system" is intentionally designed to make people feel bad about themselves, especially women.  How they could prove that or what benefit it offers to Facebook is a puzzler but these groups do state they have a ton of proof.
> 
> Investment books also talk about emotions, especially fear, when making dollar and cents decisions.  They typically agree that the fear of losing money far outweighs the fear of missing out on making profits for most people.
> 
> Artificial intelligence comes into play in both the above examples since computer programs do most of the day to day heavy lifting.  But AI is also used in marketing, the military, and all sorts of "sciences" these days.  How they program emotions such as fear and social desire "to belong" is way beyond me, but they definitely have to program for these things as they are the keys to success.
> 
> For all I know some computer is responsible for making me want to throw a shoe at the TV every time these asinine commercials keep coming on.  Is the whole point to make me scream?


Oh yeah... investment decisions.  It always shows up in the articles.  It may even drive the whole science.

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## Jen

I have been fooled many times and will probably be fooled many more times before my life is over.  I don't care about that.  But I do hold those who have tried to fool me in utter disdain (and that is putting it lightly).   Over a long lifetime......it is inevitable that we will be fooled.  So the best thing to do is what our gut tells us is the right thing and just give the stink eye to those who feel it is their life's job to tell us we are wrong.  

I have been fooled by those pretending to be my friends who really aren't my friends at all (other places other boards).  That's on them.  It doesn't touch  me.  And once I find out about it,  they are gone from my life as if they never existed.  See how easy that is?

My mother in law won't go "on the line" because she fears she will be robbed of everything she owns.  It makes her life difficult, but she's holding on to that.  We dropped internet into her house 2 years ago and we pay for it....  but she's not "on the line". She has to do things by phone (land line though she has a cell which we also pay for) as if nobody can find her if she's using a phone.   :Geez: 

As for the covid vax....  I choose not to take it.  I don't care what anyone else does. I won't ask, I won't pressure, because I just don't care enough to do that.

 But.......that utter disdain for anyone who tries to fool me extends to those who try to pressure me into taking the vax. It's none of their business and if they have had the vax, they are (or should be) safe from the unvaxxed me.

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## Jen

> Great thread, we need more topics like this.  Interesting stuff. It fits too as I find people are more willing to be pleasantly surprised than buying in and finding out you were wrong. Must be especially bad for those who suffer from the  "I'm never wrong"  personality trait.I find it and other personality/psychology topics especially interesting these days because of the whole mind control thing going on. Unrelated but  I have heard and have no problem believing , that politicians study how to lie in body language. If true it destroys the old line that politicians only lie when their lips are moving.


It's like this @donttread.

"I might not always be right, but I'm never wrong".  I'm not sure who originally said it, but it's one of my favorite quotes.   :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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donttread (09-27-2021)

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## donttread

> It's like this @donttread.
> 
> "I might not always be right, but I'm never wrong".  I'm not sure who originally said it, but it's one of my favorite quotes.



According to my wife there are three ways to do something. "The right way, the wrong way and HER way. We remain married after 36 years because we usually do things the third way. LOL

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Jen (09-27-2021)

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## potlatch

> I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those who refuse to. My thought on that is they gave into the hype and are afraid they may have made a rash decision and fucked up. The only way to sway that fear is convince themselves they are the rational ones and the unvaxed are the fools.


Not a single person here *KNOWS* which decision is the right one, only time will tell. I seldom post after the months of anti vax threads flooded the forum so I'm entitled to a rant. My husband and I were vaccinated in early January and February so it's been 9 months ago now. I've written that I have Emphysema from smoking and covid would be fatal for me. We have had numerous members of our family visiting on weekends and they are all vaxed too. We even hug!  :Smile:  I am not scared and I seem to be less fearful than many others here. 

I have never pushed the vaccine nor criticized anyone about their decision, pro or con. God gave us free will and I do not question it. I love this forum and the people here but now I find myself 'almost considered an enemy' here and I haven't done anything to deserve that. I also always have hope that our country can survive but if we conservatives keep fighting each other with only forecasts of doom we are cutting our own throat!

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Call_me_Ishmael (09-27-2021),donttread (09-28-2021),OldSchool (09-27-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> Not a single person here *KNOWS* which decision is the right one, only time will tell. I seldom post after the months of anti vax threads flooded the forum so I'm entitled to a rant. My husband and I were vaccinated in early January and February so it's been 9 months ago now. I've written that I have Emphysema from smoking and covid would be fatal for me. We have had numerous members of our family visiting on weekends and they are all vaxed too. We even hug!  I am not scared and I seem to be less fearful than many others here. 
> 
> I have never pushed the vaccine nor criticized anyone about their decision, pro or con. God gave us free will and I do not question it. I love this forum and the people here but now I find myself 'almost considered an enemy' here and I haven't done anything to deserve that. I also always have hope that our country can survive but if we conservatives keep fighting each other with only forecasts of doom we are cutting our own throat!


You are being paranoid.If you dissect my post I am only addressing those who are pushing that we all should be vaxxed.

The OP was addressing the effects fear has on our decisions.You have emphysema, so yeah it makes sense for you. I'm a healthy 64 yr old and I've decided I don't need it......let it go Louie.

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## potlatch

> You are being paranoid.



No, I'm truthful. I don't post much but I read threads clear through and see what everyone posts, the fighting, the doom and gloom drumbeat. Too many are scared. But you can call me what you want....  :Smile: 


You added to your post after I first replied to it - I did none of that;




> Originally Posted by *East of the Beast* 
> _I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those who refuse to._

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> No, I'm truthful. I don't post much but I read threads clear through and see what everyone posts, the fighting, the doom and gloom drumbeat. Too many are scared. But you can call me what you want....


Whatever sweety... :Wink:

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## Call_me_Ishmael

> You are being paranoid.If you dissect my post I am only addressing those who are pushing that we all should be vaxxed.
> 
> The OP was addressing the effects fear has on our decisions.You have emphysema, so yeah it makes sense for you. I'm a healthy 64 yr old and I've decided I don't need it......let it go Louie.


Name those forum members "pushing the vax". I know that you could search every post in this forum from me and you won't find one. Maybe a brit or two has. But who else?

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donttread (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> Name those forum members "pushing the vax". I know that you could search every post in this forum from me and you won't find one. Maybe a brit or two has. But who else?


Isn't one enough?

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## OldSchool

> Not a single person here *KNOWS* which decision is the right one, only time will tell. I seldom post after the months of anti vax threads flooded the forum so I'm entitled to a rant. My husband and I were vaccinated in early January and February so it's been 9 months ago now. I've written that I have Emphysema from smoking and covid would be fatal for me. We have had numerous members of our family visiting on weekends and they are all vaxed too. We even hug!  I am not scared and I seem to be less fearful than many others here. 
> 
> I have never pushed the vaccine nor criticized anyone about their decision, pro or con. God gave us free will and I do not question it. I love this forum and the people here but now I find myself 'almost considered an enemy' here and I haven't done anything to deserve that. I also always have hope that our country can survive but if we conservatives keep fighting each other with only forecasts of doom we are cutting our own throat!


You post your mind @potlatch and I like that. I also respect your thoughts and choices, as I think most most folks here do.

I don't think anyone here directly disrespects where your coming from, but we all have our own 'take' on it and we have our own opinions based on how we see things that are directly related to oneself, and I don't think that should be confused with being critical of others who are enduring different circumstance.

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potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

Back to the topic. 


I looked for a word that means "fear of being fooled". But I came up empty. Anyone?

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potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## potlatch

> You post your mind @potlatch and I like that. I also respect your thoughts and choices, as I think most most folks here do.
> 
> I don't think anyone here directly disrespects where your coming from, but we all have our own 'take' on it and we have our own opinions based on how we see things that are directly related to oneself, and I don't think that should be confused with being critical of others who are enduring different circumstance.


Thank you OldSchool. Maybe I just don't know how to express myself in a lucid way anymore, but I know I'm not guilty of criticizing those against the vaccinations, yet they use such a broad brush of inclusion.  :Sad20:

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Foghorn (09-28-2021),Jen (09-27-2021),OldSchool (09-27-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

I will risk being a fool here. 


I have on my long term reading list a book on Bayesian Decision Theory.  My meager understanding is that one can develop a probability for some event and then just on the basis of the next observed event, greatly improve the probability estimate. 

This seems related to the topic in the sense that the next event is a sort of bias confirmation. And with that, one has more or less fear of being fooled from their decision. 

Is this even remotely true? I've had semesters of statistics,  probability, and random processes. But it never included this Bayesian magic .

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donttread (09-28-2021),Foghorn (09-28-2021)

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## OldSchool

> Thank you OldSchool. Maybe I just don't know how to express myself in a lucid way anymore, but I know I'm not guilty of criticizing those against the vaccinations, yet they use such a broad brush of inclusion.


It's easy for some of us to criticize the vaccine and find fault with  it. But, I have seen no direct criticism of individuals who (for their  own reasons) have chosen to be vaccinated.

If I've missed something..... feel free to direct me to who needs to be put on my 'shit list'.  :Wink:

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Foghorn (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## potlatch

> It's easy for some of us to criticize the vaccine and find fault with  it. But, I have seen no direct criticism of individuals who (for their  own reasons) have chosen to be vaccinated.
> 
> If I've missed something..... feel free to direct me to who needs to be put on my 'shit list'.


I have no real quarrel with anyone and people are usually 'gentle' with me, lol.  But - as you know - I read a lot and see a lot, and over time it mounts up. A person can't make an all inclusive statement and later come back and say, 'I didn't mean you', - guess that's what my whole point is.  :Dontknow:

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OldSchool (09-27-2021)

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## potlatch

> Back to the topic. 
> 
> 
> I looked for a word that means "fear of being fooled". But I came up empty. Anyone?


For me it would be simply 'worry' or anxiety. I would bet everyone here 'worries' about their choices, maybe even develops a phobia of some sort. But I'm not a wordsmith.  :Smiley20:

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

> It's easy for some of us to criticize the vaccine and find fault with  it. But, I have seen no direct criticism of individuals who (for their  own reasons) have chosen to be vaccinated.
> 
> If I've missed something..... feel free to direct me to who needs to be put on my 'shit list'.


So you have not seen the word "sheep" used to describe people who chose to be vaxed?  

Come on man... who are you kidding?

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potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## Jen

> Not a single person here *KNOWS* which decision is the right one, only time will tell. I seldom post after the months of anti vax threads flooded the forum so I'm entitled to a rant. My husband and I were vaccinated in early January and February so it's been 9 months ago now. I've written that I have Emphysema from smoking and covid would be fatal for me. We have had numerous members of our family visiting on weekends and they are all vaxed too. We even hug!  I am not scared and I seem to be less fearful than many others here. 
> 
> I have never pushed the vaccine nor criticized anyone about their decision, pro or con. God gave us free will and I do not question it. I love this forum and the people here but now I find myself 'almost considered an enemy' here and I haven't done anything to deserve that. I also always have hope that our country can survive but if we conservatives keep fighting each other with only forecasts of doom we are cutting our own throat!


You've handled things in exactly the right way.  You did what you had to do. You are confident that it was the right choice. And you have never forced your choice onto others.

I handled it differently than you did, but I'm confident in my own choice.  

To me, this is the way it should be.  Each of us should assess our own need and response, make that response, and own it.  @potlatch and I have both done that.   I agree with her choice, and I agree with mine.  All of us here are smart enough to think for ourselves.

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OldSchool (09-27-2021),potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## OldSchool

> So you have not seen the word "sheep" used to describe people who chose to be vaxed?  
> 
> Come on man... who are you kidding?


Well.... dang.  :F Doh: 

Guess I just don't want to think that was directed (personally) towards my friend Potlatch.

But, in light of all that..... I see where she's coming from.

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potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## potlatch

> You've handled things in exactly the right way.  You did what you had to do. You are confident that it was the right choice. And you have never forced your choice onto others.
> 
> I handled it differently than you did, but I'm confident in my own choice.  
> 
> To me, this is the way it should be.  Each of us should assess our own need and response, make that response, and own it.  @potlatch and I have both done that.   I agree with her choice, and I agree with mine.  All of us here are smart enough to think for ourselves.


Thank you Jen. You understand exactly what I meant and how I meant it. Neither of us goes around criticizing the choices others make!

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Jen (09-27-2021)

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## Jen

> Back to the topic. 
> 
> 
> I looked for a word that means "fear of being fooled". But I came up empty. Anyone?


All I get is "social anxiety"

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Foghorn (09-28-2021)

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## potlatch

> So you have not seen the word "sheep" used to describe people who chose to be vaxed?  
> 
> Come on man... who are you kidding?


 @OldSchool isn't here as much as many of us and doesn't see all the posts. But thanks for mentioning SHEEP Ishmael, yes they do use that word very often!  Thanks for the reminder!

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donttread (09-28-2021),OldSchool (09-27-2021)

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## OldSchool

> @OldSchool isn't here as much as many of us and doesn't see all the posts. But thanks for mentioning SHEEP Ishmael, yes they do use that word very often!  Thanks for the reminder!


It's true, and I don't read a lot.... I post from the hip.....  :Smiley Char092: ..... and mostly just for fun.


And yes - even the serious threads and posts are for fun.....  :F Zen:

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Foghorn (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## potlatch

> It's true, and I don't read a lot.... I post from the hip..... ..... and mostly just for fun.
> 
> And yes - even the serious threads and posts are for fun.....


Yeah, but you post in a good way. You get your point across with a bit of humor and people like it. I, on the other hand, am too serious and just spew out how I feel and it sometimes goes across like a lead bomb. We are all individuals in our posting manner.  :Thumbsup20:

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Foghorn (09-28-2021),Jen (09-27-2021),OldSchool (09-27-2021)

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## OldSchool

> Yeah, but you post in a good way. You get your point across with a bit of humor and people like it. I, on the other hand, am too serious and just spew out how I feel and it sometimes goes across like a lead bomb. We are all individuals in our posting manner.


Someone once told me: carry on wayward son...... just don't expect peace when I am done.  :Wink:

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Foghorn (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-27-2021)

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## potlatch

> Someone once told me: carry on wayward son...... just don't expect peace when I am done.


Interesting quote, maybe even a warning, haha. It's my bed time and I have to 'catch' Tini to put her in the crate so I can go to bed - but I'll look at the youtube first. Thanks for sticking up for me!  :Smiley20:

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Jen (09-27-2021),OldSchool (09-27-2021)

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## donttread

> Not a single person here *KNOWS* which decision is the right one, only time will tell. I seldom post after the months of anti vax threads flooded the forum so I'm entitled to a rant. My husband and I were vaccinated in early January and February so it's been 9 months ago now. I've written that I have Emphysema from smoking and covid would be fatal for me. We have had numerous members of our family visiting on weekends and they are all vaxed too. We even hug!  I am not scared and I seem to be less fearful than many others here. 
> 
> I have never pushed the vaccine nor criticized anyone about their decision, pro or con. God gave us free will and I do not question it. I love this forum and the people here but now I find myself 'almost considered an enemy' here and I haven't done anything to deserve that. I also always have hope that our country can survive but if we conservatives keep fighting each other with only forecasts of doom we are cutting our own throat!


 @potlatch   you are most certainly no enemy of mine. I am also vaxed despite being COVID recovered and believe the vaccination to be best for most especially as we age. However, like you, I stand against those who would force vaccine especially when the vaccine appears to be quite effective ( therefore no justification to force others to take it) 
Yes some would force vaccine and some would ridicule others for getting it. Me I look at it this way
1) Don't like guns? Don't buy one.
2) Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry a same sex person.
3) Don't like pot? Don't use it.
4) Don't like vaccines ? Don't get one.

Life under personal choice is much simplier. BTW, how many years off the true deadly weed, tobacco? Also please get back here the forum needs you.

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Foghorn (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-28-2021)

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## patrickt

A. I not only don't think the majority are always right, I think they are rarely right. By nature, I go with the minority.


B. If the government is forcing me to do something, I am sure it's bad for me. The government is not your friend and doesn't care two bits about you.


C. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. But there are those who are so frightened of having been fooled they deny that they were fooled. Example: I had a salesman who explained to me why I could not afford to NOT buy a Mercedes. I didn't buy one and a friend at work who had bought a Mercedes proceeded to repeat the salesman's bullshit.

D. When someone is forcing me and saying, "It's for your own good," it never has been. But, I'm only 80. Perhaps some day.....

E. Fear is the strongest emotion, fear is the most common emotion, fear and hatred are often related, and fear is debilitating. And, sadly, when emotion and reason conflict, emotion almost always wins.

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Foghorn (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-28-2021)

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## East of the Beast

One other point @potlatch.Actually 2 points.1. If I don’t take it. It can’t harm me. 2. And if I did take it still wouldn’t guarantee that I wouldn’t get sick anyway.So, my logic is.What’s the point?

I don’t know why you are taking such an issue with what I posted. It certainly was not aimed at you.

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patrickt (09-28-2021),potlatch (09-28-2021)

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## Foghorn

If you had to rank emotions from 1 to 10, I'd say revenge is right up there with fear.

Wonder if the ruling class has thought about that one?

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## donttread

> A. I not only don't think the majority are always right, I think they are rarely right. By nature, I go with the minority.
> 
> 
> B. If the government is forcing me to do something, I am sure it's bad for me. The government is not your friend and doesn't care two bits about you.
> 
> 
> C. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. But there are those who are so frightened of having been fooled they deny that they were fooled. Example: I had a salesman who explained to me why I could not afford to NOT buy a Mercedes. I didn't buy one and a friend at work who had bought a Mercedes proceeded to repeat the salesman's bullshit.
> 
> D. When some if forcing me and saying, "It's for your own good," it never has been. But, I'm only 80. Perhaps some day.....
> ...


A) Non conformity for non-conformity's sake is just more conformity.
B) In most cases yes.
C) Don't get your point here
D) I think the OP was about choice with tolerance from both "sides"
E) Well said. In fact right now we I think are living in a hypochodriac country due to government and media. Having said that it does appear statistically that the vaccine is pretty good at preventing death. But there are wild claims against it causing fear as well. Those who are at high risk have adifferent choice than those who are not. Again it's all about choice.

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## patrickt

> One other point @potlatch.Actually 2 points.1. If I don’t take it. It can’t harm me. 2. And if I did take it still wouldn’t guarantee that I wouldn’t get sick anyway.So, my logic is.What’s the point?
> 
> I don’t know why you are taking such an issue with what I posted. It certainly was not aimed at you.


If you take the vaccine you can still get sick. If you take the vaccine you can still transmit the virus to others even if you don't get sick. So, what's the point?

Give me a good reason to take the vaccine. They say if you get COVID it will be milder but they've lied about how many people have had COVID, how many have died from COVID, where COVID didn't come from, the effectiveness of masks, and a list of symptoms that covers ever possible illness but gonorrhea.  And now they say, "Trust Us."

Why?

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East of the Beast (09-28-2021)

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## donttread

> Oh yeah... investment decisions.  It always shows up in the articles.  It may even drive the whole science.


It does. For example the stockmarket flitters and flutters with news but at the same time appears largely disconnected from what the country is going through. There are few barometers of our economic health WORSE than our stock market. Well in terms of the average person's economic health anyway.

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## East of the Beast

> If you take the vaccine you can still get sick. If you take the vaccine you can still transmit the virus to others even if you don't get sick. So, what's the point?
> 
> Give me a good reason to take the vaccine. They say if you get COVID it will be milder but they've lied about how many people have had COVID, how many have died from COVID, where COVID didn't come from, the effectiveness of masks, and a list of symptoms that covers ever possible illness but gonorrhea.  And now the say, "Trust Us."
> 
> Why?


exactly

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## donttread

> You are being paranoid.If you dissect my post I am only addressing those who are pushing that we all should be vaxxed.
> 
> The OP was addressing the effects fear has on our decisions.You have emphysema, so yeah it makes sense for you. I'm a healthy 64 yr old and I've decided I don't need it......let it go Louie.


Yeah but it sounded like you painted all of us who are vaccinated with the same brush thinking we were all pushing you. I'm vaccinated but I believe in and support your right not to be. And I expect the unvaccinated to respect my choice as well. Maybe just a matter of wording? Honestly on the boards in general I've seen both but more of the anti-vaxxers and their rumors.

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potlatch (09-28-2021)

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## donttread

> Name those forum members "pushing the vax". I know that you could search every post in this forum from me and you won't find one. Maybe a brit or two has. But who else?



I have spoken out against disimformation and rumor on both sides. This whole damned pandemic could have been addressed via personal choice and if we had done that it would be over and I doubt the final death toll would be much higher. 
It's also important to remember that no one is immune from serious COVID because they are in a certain group . Like everything else it's all about odds and real risk and reward. I currently have a 19 year old granddaughter quite sick at home with COVID. She's doing so alone in part due to hysteria and rules preventing family members from interacting with society after going to help her and because her boyfrriend , whom I generally like, is turning out to be a COVID pussy. But that's another topic.

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## usfan

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~John Kenneth Galbraith

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## patrickt

I taught my children that fear, the emotion of fear, is all a fantasy. It isn't about what has happened, or even is happening. It's about what's going to happen and we don't actually know what's going to happen.

Now, I'm not talking about a reasonable, rational assessment of risk or danger. i'm talking about the emotion of fear. Not only is it a fantasy but it is debilitating and can actually cause the thing that is frightening you to happen. The emotion of fear not only interferes with your thought process but it interferes with how your body functions.

I would suggest that instead of focusing on what might happen TO you, that you focus on what you are going to do.

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> Yeah but it sounded like you painted all of us who are vaccinated with the same brush thinking we were all pushing you. I'm vaccinated but I believe in and support your right not to be. And I expect the unvaccinated to respect my choice as well. Maybe just a matter of wording? Honestly on the boards in general I've seen both but more of the anti-vaxxers and their rumors.


You heard wrong.....What part of this statement implies all?

_If you dissect my post I am only addressing those who are pushing that we all should be vaxxed._

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## potlatch

> @potlatch   you are most certainly no enemy of mine. I am also vaxed despite being COVID recovered and believe the vaccination to be best for most especially as we age. However, like you, I stand against those who would force vaccine especially when the vaccine appears to be quite effective ( therefore no justification to force others to take it) 
> Yes some would force vaccine and some would ridicule others for getting it. Me I look at it this way
> 1) Don't like guns? Don't buy one.
> 2) Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry a same sex person.
> 3) Don't like pot? Don't use it.
> 4) Don't like vaccines ? Don't get one.
> 
> Life under personal choice is much simplier. BTW, how many years off the true deadly weed, tobacco? Also please get back here the forum needs you.


Thankyou for your kind words and your excellent post donttread and I agree with all of your comments. I would add a #6 - "Don't let covid threads overwhelm you." My advice is 'take a break' and you will feel much better.

---I found myself between the rock and a hard place of not trusting the government but not trusting so called news from conspiracy sites either. 15 years on Free Republic instilled a disdain for Alex Jones InfoWars and all the many spin-offs.

---I've had a long wonderful life and smoking has been my only vice. I've had no other significant illnesses.  :Smile: 
(hugs)

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donttread (09-28-2021),Oceander (09-28-2021)

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## potlatch

> One other point @potlatch.Actually 2 points.1. If I dont take it. It cant harm me. 2. And if I did take it still wouldnt guarantee that I wouldnt get sick anyway.So, my logic is.Whats the point?
> 
> I dont know why you are taking such an issue with what I posted. It certainly was not aimed at you.


I never meant to insult you! Your words  hit a nerve in me as I've never disparaged or ridiculed others who refuse the vax nor do I consider the unvaxed fools. And your words at post #2 were all inclusive.

You're right, if you don't take the vax it can't harm you, nor can it 'possibly' help you. When they were first released they stated that 'if' you were vaxed and still got covid it would be a mild case. It's a chance some of us take.  :Dontknow: 

You and I are friends, just don't call me your paranoid friend!  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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East of the Beast (09-28-2021)

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## Authentic

> I've had no other significant illnesses. 
> (*hugs*)


I read this at first as a significant illness.

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potlatch (09-28-2021)

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## potlatch

> I read this at first as a significant illness.


No  :Smile: , I've been healthy most of my life other than one surgery. No arthritis, just some normal aches and pains as I get older. If I hadn't smoked I would be amazingly well off!  :Thumbsup20:

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## UKSmartypants

> Yeah but it sounded like you painted all of us who are vaccinated with the same brush thinking we were all pushing you. I'm vaccinated but I believe in and support your right not to be. And I expect the unvaccinated to respect my choice as well. Maybe just a matter of wording? Honestly on the boards in general I've seen both but more of the anti-vaxxers and their rumors.


I wont reiterate why I stopped posting in the science forum here, its pointless against the tsunami of anti-vaxxer posts. Ive been disenfranchised on here regarding posting interesting science. Oh well, your loss.

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## donttread

> Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. ~John Kenneth Galbraith


Post of the day. And also why our divisionism led to Joe Biden!

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usfan (09-28-2021)

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## donttread

> I taught my children that fear, the emotion of fear, is all a fantasy. It isn't about what has happened, or even is happening. It's about what's going to happen and we don't actually know what's going to happen.
> 
> Now, I'm not talking about a reasonable, rational assessment of risk or danger. i'm talking about the emotion of fear. Not only is it a fantasy but it is debilitating and can actually cause the thing that is frightening you to happen. The emotion of fear not only interferes with your thought process but it interferes with how your body functions.
> 
> I would suggest that instead of focusing on what might happen TO you, that you focus on what you are going to do.



Like staying in the here and now in general? That is something that should be taught to all as it is difficult to practice

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patrickt (09-28-2021)

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## donttread

> For me it would be simply 'worry' or anxiety. I would bet everyone here 'worries' about their choices, maybe even develops a phobia of some sort. But I'm not a wordsmith.


I think everyone worries and 2nd guesses to but some of our online alter egos don't.

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potlatch (09-28-2021)

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## donttread

> You heard wrong.....What part of this statement implies all?
> 
> _If you dissect my post I am only addressing those who are pushing that we all should be vaxxed._



You said "I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those of us who refused to." 

There is no way to dissect that as qualified to only those who push for your vaccination. What's more the remainder of post #2 doesn't talk about any exceptions. Perhaps you thought you had clarified that but you didn't that I can see.
As for the fear you mention that works in both directions.


Alumni Member
Achievements:
          




Join DateJun 2014Posts19,086Thanks25,432Thanked: 23,332Rep Power21474863

I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those who refuse to. My thought on that is they gave into the hype and are afraid they may have made a rash decision and fucked up. The only way to sway that fear is convince themselves they are the rational ones and the unvaxed are the fools.

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## donttread

> Thankyou for your kind words and your excellent post donttread and I agree with all of your comments. I would add a #6 - "Don't let covid threads overwhelm you." My advice is 'take a break' and you will feel much better.
> 
> ---I found myself between the rock and a hard place of not trusting the government but not trusting so called news from conspiracy sites either. 15 years on Free Republic instilled a disdain for Alex Jones InfoWars and all the many spin-offs.
> 
> ---I've had a long wonderful life and smoking has been my only vice. I've had no other significant illnesses. 
> (hugs)



Thank you. The quandry you describe is one we are all in on almost any topic. We really are handing the next generation a world where you cannot believe anybody or anything. One group scoffs at the CDC but actually believes Jones et. al. Another scoffs at Jones but follows the CDC like a religion. 

You and I as well as others know that both need to be scoffed at but not always equally.

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potlatch (09-28-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> You said "I have said on this very forum, that those who have been vaccinated are not merely satisfied that they are vaccinated. They feel the need to disparage or ridicule those of us who refused to." 
> 
> There is no way to dissect that as qualified to only those who push for your vaccination. What's more the remainder of post #2 doesn't talk about any exceptions. Perhaps you thought you had clarified that but you didn't that I can see.
> As for the fear you mention that works in both directions.
> 
> 
> Alumni Member
> Achievements:
>           
> ...


you are splitting hairs,I made no mention of forum members....and you didn't have to repost my entire page.A Post # would have been sufficient

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## potlatch

> I think everyone worries and 2nd guesses to but some of our online alter egos don't.


I really don't worry about it that much. By avoiding the posts that are meant to frighten us I have found myself more peaceful. When the virus first appeared I scoured the net trying to post good information from well known scientific sites. That was 'before' the intense hatred for the government, CDC, and other sites began. As time went on the early information was disparaged so I pretty much stopped posting about it. All's well  :Smile:

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donttread (09-28-2021),Kodiak (09-28-2021)

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## potlatch

> Thank you. The quandry you describe is one we are all in on almost any topic. We really are handing the next generation a world where you cannot believe anybody or anything. One group scoffs at the CDC but actually believes Jones et. al. Another scoffs at Jones but follows the CDC like a religion. 
> 
> You and I as well as others know that both need to be scoffed at but not always equally.


You said it just right!!  :Thumbsup20:

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## donttread

> you are splitting hairs,I made no mention of forum members....and you didn't have to repost my entire page.A Post # would have been sufficient


I'm not spitting hairs man read what you wrote, not a big deal until you tried to tell me that your statement was qualifed to only forum members who were pushing people to vaccinate. . As for the post I meant to copy your post but not your "page" but all I see is your post so I don't know. I'm not Mr. electronics here so if you say I posted your page I guess I did.

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Call_me_Ishmael (09-28-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> I'm not spitting hairs man read what you wrote, not a big deal until you tried to tell me that your statement was qualifed to only forum members who were pushing people to vaccinate. . As for the post I meant to copy your post but not your "page" but all I see is your post so I don't know. I'm not Mr. electronics here so if you say I posted your page I guess I did.


What the fuck is your problem?  There is no gotcha prize. I made a general statement about vaxxed people....So, fuckin' what?..Deal with it.

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## Northern Rivers

> I'm not spitting hairs man read what you wrote, not a big deal until you tried to tell me that your statement was qualifed to only forum members who were pushing people to vaccinate. . As for the post I meant to copy your post but not your "page" but all I see is your post so I don't know. I'm not Mr. electronics here so if you say I posted your page I guess I did.


Great typo...

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East of the Beast (09-28-2021),El Guapo (09-28-2021)

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## donttread

> What the fuck is your problem?  There is no gotcha prize. I made a general statement about vaxxed people....So, fuckin' what?..Deal with it.



So I called you out on it nicely and you could not let it go. Claimed it was only directed to those who pushed you to vaccinate but it wasn't. Your probably embarrassed, many people lash out when they are instead of just saying. Whoops my bad. I have dealt with it and you're pissed off because I did.

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Call_me_Ishmael (09-28-2021)

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## East of the Beast

> So I called you out on it nicely and could not let it go. Claimed it was only directed to those who pushed you to vaccinate but it wasn't. Your probably embarrassed, many people lash out when they are instead of just saying. Whoops my bad. I have dealt with it and you're pissed off because I did.


No your being a irritating, anal, little bitch over a very insignificant point.I'd hate to be your husband.

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## patrickt

> Like staying in the here and now in general? That is something that should be taught to all as it is difficult to practice


Once you understand what's happening it isn't that hard to do. I have no doubt that police officers going on a call where they have been led to believe their is a gun involved then see a gun that isn't there. I even objected to dispatchers saying, "No known weapons" because it raised the issue.

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donttread (09-28-2021)

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## donttread

> No your being a irritating, anal, little bitch over a very insignificant point.I'd hate to be your husband.



It's sad that you can't say. Whoops my bad since some of you took this a certain way, the way in which it was said, let me clarify. But that would take character and all you got in junior high level name calling.

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