# Stuff and Things > Guns and Self Defense >  Cops get wrong house in drug raid, shoot old man while wife in handcuffs

## Guest

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95...1#.UXif-crdrQz

  A 61-year-old man was shot to death by police while his wife was handcuffed in another room during a drug 

 raid on the wrong house. 


 Police admitted their mistake, saying faulty information from a drug informant contributed to the death of John Adams Wednesday night. They intended to raid the home next door. 


 The two officers, 25-year-old Kyle Shedran and 24-year-old Greg Day, were placed on administrative leave with pay. 
 They need to get rid of those men, boys with toys, said Adams 70-year-old widow, Loraine. 


 John Adams was watching television when his wife heard pounding on the door. Police claim they identified themselves and wore police jackets. Loraine Adams said she had no indication the men were police. 


 I thought it was a home invasion. I said Baby, get your gun!, she said, sitting amid friends and relatives gathered at her home to cook and prepare for Sundays funeral. 


 Resident Fired First 


 Police say her husband fired first with a sawed-off shotgun and they responded. He was shot at least three times and died later at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville. 


 Loraine Adams said she was handcuffed and thrown to her knees in another room when the shooting began. 


 I said, Yall have got the wrong person, youve got the wrong place. What are you looking for? 


 We did the best surveillance we could do, and a mistake was made, Lebanon Police Chief Billy Weeks said. Its a very severe mistake, a costly mistake. It makes us look at our own policies and procedures to make sure this never occurs again. He said, however, the two policemen were not at fault.

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## Common

Sigh that kind of thing just sucks. The chief said the two officers were not at fault, hes correct, they went where they were told by the commander that was running the command center. THE CHIEF IS AT FAULT, the buck starts at him and from there works its way down to who really screwed up. There is no way that somone does not get hammered for this.
   I have never heard of a drug raid with just two Police Officers let alone two police officers without a supervisor with them. Something is really wrong with this whole scenario

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## Rain

Another tragedy related to a non-violent "crime", and it wasn't even committed by the one who is dead!.

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Gemini (04-27-2013),usfan (04-25-2013)

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## Common

> Another tragedy related to a non-violent "crime", and it wasn't even committed by the one who is dead!.


  Drug trafficing is not non violent, I think if there were a tally of all murders related to drugs it would be astonishing.

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Heartbreak Zero (06-02-2013)

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## Archer

> Sigh that kind of thing just sucks. The chief said the two officers were not at fault, hes correct, they went where they were told by the commander that was running the command center. THE CHIEF IS AT FAULT, the buck starts at him and from there works its way down to who really screwed up. There is no way that somone does not get hammered for this.
>    I have never heard of a drug raid with just two Police Officers let alone two police officers without a supervisor with them. Something is really wrong with this whole scenario


The jack boot thug mentality of punks with guns is at fault.

I don't care who you are! If you come in my home and mess with my wife and kids I am not going to shoot at you if I have the chance I am going to... Lets say I am not going to miss. Shotgun is great for some things but a man with a powerful revolver is deadly.

The punk ass kid cops were high on testosterone looking for a kill. This was overkill and poor judgement on the part of the officers.

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St James (04-25-2013)

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## Rain

> Drug trafficing is not non violent, I think if there were a tally of all murders related to drugs it would be astonishing.


Drug trafficking is non violent.  Other acts associated with it very often are not, and should be handled accordingly..

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## Maximatic

> Drug trafficking is non violent.  Other acts associated with it very often are not, and should be handled accordingly..


And those other acts would not be associated with it if the government didn't fight a war against the business. It would be like the trafficking of any other product for which there is a demand.

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## usfan

There is something wrong with the system if a mistake like this happens, & this is not the first time.. i've heard of many 'mistakes' like this.  The 'shock & awe' of these kinds of raids are the problem.  Yes, they are effective, if the right house is picked.  But could it not be verified by law enforcement & surveillance?  A judge had to provide a 'search warrant' for this.. so his/her lax judgement began the problem.  So you have wrong information leading to an illegal search warrant, leading to a botched raid, leading to a dead man protecting his house.  The system will pay, as they'll get sued, i'm sure.  But that is slim consolation to the dead man.

'Best surveillance?'  That is a joke.  If they watched the house, they would have seen a couple of old people puttering around, not a crack house.  Just send an undercover cop up first, to verify any illegal activity, before busting down the door & exploding flash bombs.

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## Common

> The jack boot thug mentality of punks with guns is at fault.
> 
> I don't care who you are! If you come in my home and mess with my wife and kids I am not going to shoot at you if I have the chance I am going to... Lets say I am not going to miss. Shotgun is great for some things but a man with a powerful revolver is deadly.
> 
> The punk ass kid cops were high on testosterone looking for a kill. This was overkill and poor judgement on the part of the officers.


   Im not defending them I said they were wrong, I think your description of their intent is all wet buut you can think what you want, I understand that you obviously are unaware how a particular police officer/officers  winds up in any ones house. 
   Police Officers are not at fault for entering the wrong house, they would be wrong for anything they did wrong once  inside.
Why? Police officers do not "CHOOSE" the location of the raid, they are not involved in the command structure that sets up the location the means of entrance all the KNOWNS before the raid begins. There  should be a supervisor that communicates with the command center and tells them we are in position and he gets the command to enter and he in turn pass's that order to his squad. After they enter the residence each officer is answerable for his or her actions, but somewhere there is a supervisor responsible for the wrong house being raided. NOT the officers that were given the order.

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## The XL

I can't stand hearing this.

Nothing will happen though, there is no justice.  My powerless makes my blood boil.....

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## Common

> I can't stand hearing this.
> 
> Nothing will happen though, there is no justice.  My powerless makes my blood boil.....


  No one likes hearing this, how could we ?

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## Guest

> Drug trafficing is not non violent, I think if there were a tally of all murders related to drugs it would be astonishing.


Most of which are committed by law enforcement.  Drug trafficking in the US exists because it stays under the radar.  How does it?  By not opening up federal murder cases.

Yes, there are some murders related to trafficking but (again) 350 million people with illegals included, less than 12,000 homicides total.  It's not what you see on tv.

Most of the murders are not in the US.

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## Guest

When a citizen kills a police officer they get the death penalty, when a cop kills a civilian they get paid time off.

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Gemini (04-27-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-26-2013),The XL (04-25-2013),usfan (04-25-2013)

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## Common

> Most of which are committed by law enforcement.  Drug trafficking in the US exists because it stays under the radar.  How does it?  By not opening up federal murder cases.
> 
> Yes, there are some murders related to trafficking but (again) 350 million people with illegals included, less than 12,000 homicides total.  It's not what you see on tv.
> 
> Most of the murders are not in the US.


  Rina im sorry but you are dead wrong there is a huge tally of murders involving drugs from street pushers right on up the ladder. The bloods and crypts alone killings in a year over drugs would astonish you.

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## Common

> When a citizen kills a police officer they get the death penalty, when a cop kills a civilian they get paid time off.


       One could say criminal defense lawyers kill more people than cops  getting murderous clients off the hook and back on the street,  that has been said many times yanno, look at OJ and Michael Blake.  :Smile: 
       Truth is the law realizes that when your in a position police are mistakes will be made just like anyone else in any other profession, what makes it much worse is that the mistakes are sometimes deadly. If you took all interactions police have with citizens in all capacities through out the country mistakes are a minimum. Its the media that makes great hay and promotes the animosity.

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usfan (04-25-2013)

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## Guest

> Rina im sorry but you are dead wrong there is a huge tally of murders involving drugs from street pushers right on up the ladder. The bloods and crypts alone killings in a year over drugs would astonish you.


I'm not really.  The United States has less than 12,000 homicides a year with gun violence across a populace of 310 (legal) to 360 (including illegals) million people.

There is less than a 1% chance that anyone will be killed with a gun.  Shooting deaths in the federal drug war tallys also include those perpetrated by LEOs.  I'm not saying that there are not gangs and that they don't kill, I'm saying that this isn't Training Day.

Unfortunately you will not respect me in the morning when I tell you that were it not for those alleged to be drug traffickers needing a defense against entrapment charges levied to prohibit them from selling products that are not advertised and wholly unsolicited against the general public I would not have a spanking new Range Rover sport.

I would hasten to add that of all the files that have come across my desk with indictment counts leveled in the 100s I am proud to say that homicide and murder are not among them. 

Not to say that it does not happen, but they know what technology the feds have and are changing their styles to accommodate this in the US.

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## The XL

> When a citizen kills a police officer they get the death penalty, when a cop kills a civilian they get paid time off.



This is sadly the truth.

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## Common

> I'm not really.  The United States has less than 12,000 homicides a year with gun violence across a populace of 310 (legal) to 360 (including illegals) million people.
> 
> There is less than a 1% chance that anyone will be killed with a gun.  Shooting deaths in the federal drug war tallys also include those perpetrated by LEOs.  I'm not saying that there are not gangs and that they don't kill, I'm saying that this isn't Training Day.
> 
> Unfortunately you will not respect me in the morning when I tell you that were it not for those alleged to be drug traffickers needing a defense against entrapment charges levied to prohibit them from selling products that are not advertised and wholly unsolicited against the general public I would not have a spanking new Range Rover sport.
> 
> I would hasten to add that of all the files that have come across my desk with indictment counts leveled in the 100s I am proud to say that homicide and murder are not among them. 
> 
> Not to say that it does not happen, but they know what technology the feds have and are changing their styles to accommodate this in the US.


  Rina im not talking about the federal drug war, Im talking all drug trafficing from the street pushers on up. There are many murders over drugs. I would also like to remind you that the figure of GUN violence is not the only way to murder Rina. Stabbings, beatings, Runovers, garroting I said murders not murder by gun.

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## Guest

When I first came to work at the firm I spoke to one of the older attorneys about if they ever felt guilty about these drug trafficking cases.  He told me that drug dealers don't advertise in magazines, on billboards, on television, etc.  People have to seek them out to get the product.  He pointed out that alcohol has destroyed more families than drugs and that is lauded and protected.

After I began to meet people, both users and alleged dealers, my attitude changed wholly.

You say they kill people, well, some of our wars are to create stable environments for commerce.  Nestle probably killed more people in Africa with their bad formula.  There's the diamond trade.  Chocolate slavery...

Capitalism causes death all over the world every day in some manner because people want products and other people are willing to supply them for money.

Why are drugs any different than missiles?  We hate the drug dealer and love Lockheed Martin.

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## Guest

> Rina im not talking about the federal drug war, Im talking all drug trafficing from the street pushers on up. There are many murders over drugs. I would also like to remind you that the figure of GUN violence is not the only way to murder Rina. Stabbings, beatings, Runovers, garroting I said murders not murder by gun.


I am, too, I said the statistics provided by the feds--meaning they are the warehouse for statistics.

I do hear you, but also hear me...there are more rapes than deaths from drug trafficking, more incidents of domestic violence than death from drug trafficking...

Is it worse if I kill you over money than because I think you cheated on me?  Is it worse to kill you over drugs than natural resources?

I have a hard time with this because I think it is the drug war that kills.  

WalMart--the founders of it, they were fine with selling goods from sweatshop labor that included kids until they were caught.  I think greed causes death, but as a libertarian I'm not going to tell people what they should do with their body or money.  I'm not going to stop the diabetic from drinking a 32 oz Pepsi, the heart patient from smoking, or the person who wants to take drugs from taking them.  

But that's just me...

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usfan (04-25-2013)

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## Guest

> One could say criminal defense lawyers kill more people than cops  getting murderous clients off the hook and back on the street,  that has been said many times yanno, look at OJ and Michael Blake.


And I would say that if the DA and police did their job in accordance with the law there would be far fewer Huntley's that get people those miraculous plea bargains.  

Look, defense attorneys can only "get people off" when either mistakes are made or their client is innocent and has money.  

If your client is innocent-innocent then they are more likely than not to be punished for their innocence if they are poor and rewarded with freedom if they are rich.  If they are guilty, they can take a plea and feel grateful to have it.




> Truth is the law realizes that when your in a position police are mistakes will be made just like anyone else in any other profession, what makes it much worse is that the mistakes are sometimes deadly. If you took all interactions police have with citizens in all capacities through out the country mistakes are a minimum. Its the media that makes great hay and promotes the animosity.


And regular old humans make mistakes out of fear.  They still go to jail.

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## Common

> When I first came to work at the firm I spoke to one of the older attorneys about if they ever felt guilty about these drug trafficking cases.  He told me that drug dealers don't advertise in magazines, on billboards, on television, etc.  People have to seek them out to get the product.  He pointed out that alcohol has destroyed more families than drugs and that is lauded and protected.
> 
> After I began to meet people, both users and alleged dealers, my attitude changed wholly.
> 
> You say they kill people, well, some of our wars are to create stable environments for commerce.  Nestle probably killed more people in Africa with their bad formula.  There's the diamond trade.  Chocolate slavery...
> 
> Capitalism causes death all over the world every day in some manner because people want products and other people are willing to supply them for money.
> 
> Why are drugs any different than missiles?  We hate the drug dealer and love Lockheed Martin.


  Rina with all due respect lawyers make excuses and spin anyones actions as long as they are getting their fee. I think the older attorney that told you that if full of shit. No they dont advertise they just suck people in to push their shit for the big bucks. 
  You nor anyone else can clean up drug dealers and drug pushers and the drug culture. Its a scourge on this country and has been for decades. Drug dealers murder people daily with the product that make so much off of and ruin lives. They dont advertize because the CANT and thats the only reason. The shit the push is murder in small doses. They are scumbags and to vilify police for mistakes made in the course of their duties and make them out ot be scum and then try and clean up drug dealers and the murder and pain and chaos they cause is more than enough for me to respectfully bow out of this converstation

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## The XL

End the war on drugs and the gangs and drug related violence would disappear.

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## Guest

> Rina with all due respect lawyers make excuses and spin anyones actions as long as they are getting their fee. I think the older attorney that told you that if full of shit. No they dont advertise they just suck people in to push their shit for the big bucks.


I don't.  When I say I want an end to the drug war, I am acknowledging that 65% of what I make each year will be gone.  If it is about money for me and not about the people that walk through my door I'd be for the drug war.  These people that come into my office are going to be locked up next to pedophiles for putting something in their own body...nope.  I can't have that.




> You nor anyone else can clean up drug dealers and drug pushers and the drug culture. Its a scourge on this country and has been for decades. Drug dealers murder people daily with the product that make so much off of and ruin lives. They dont advertize because the CANT and thats the only reason. The shit the push is murder in small doses. They are scumbags and to vilify police for mistakes made in the course of their duties and make them out ot be scum and then try and clean up drug dealers and the murder and pain and chaos they cause is more than enough for me to respectfully bow out of this converstation


I understand.  I don't make excuses for murder though.  If you've taken a life you are worthless to me.  I don't care if you are a gang banger or a cop.

Everyone knows and cares when a gang shooting occurs.  Those people are demonized right away.  I don't need a pile onto that to get people to wake up to a problem because the media does that quite well.

Why I bring up the police incidents is that they are in a position of public trust and when they are overzealous and people die...nothing is ever done.

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## Common

> I don't.  When I say I want an end to the drug war, I am acknowledging that 65% of what I make each year will be gone.  If it is about money for me and not about the people that walk through my door I'd be for the drug war.  These people that come into my office are going to be locked up next to pedophiles for putting something in their own body...nope.  I can't have that.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand.  I don't make excuses for murder though.  If you've taken a life you are worthless to me.  I don't care if you are a gang banger or a cop.
> 
> Everyone knows and cares when a gang shooting occurs.  Those people are demonized right away.  I don't need a pile onto that to get people to wake up to a problem because the media does that quite well.
> 
> Why I bring up the police incidents is that they are in a position of public trust and when they are overzealous and people die...nothing is ever done.


 
  Rina you are trying to equate a police officer making an error in judgement a decision he may have to make in split second to drug dealers and what they do. It is NOT the same thing. Yes there are bad cops and yes some cops get away with it. Rina how many lawyers get punished for what they do. How many? we talk about the blue wall of silence, there is no bigger wall than the Bar association protecting all the flock.
  I think most people no matter how much they hate police if they had an honest shred of dignity would admit drug dealers are just slightly worse than cops and slightly better than lawyers :P  :Smile:

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## Guest

> Rina you are trying to equate a police officer making an error in judgement a decision he may have to make in split second to drug dealers and what they do. It is NOT the same thing. Yes there are bad cops and yes some cops get away with it. Rina how many lawyers get punished for what they do. How many?


Two ethics complaints get your disbarred.  I know several disbarred attorneys, actually.




> we talk about the blue wall of silence, there is no bigger wall than the Bar association protecting all the flock.


Honestly, I do not see it.  I know someone who's paralegal cursed in court and he got an ethics complaint and is half-way to being disbarred because he was supposed to "manage" the people who work for him.




> I think most people no matter how much they hate police if they had an honest shred of dignity would admit drug dealers are just slightly worse than cops and slightly better than lawyers :P


Are we talking Pablo Escobar or the guy that sells weed to his friends?

--and I'm glad to know that I'm more evil than Pablo Escobar.  I wish I had his money if I'm that evil.

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## Common

> Two ethics complaints get your disbarred.  I know several disbarred attorneys, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I do not see it.  I know someone who's paralegal cursed in court and he got an ethics complaint and is half-way to being disbarred because he was supposed to "manage" the people who work for him.
> 
> 
> 
> Are we talking Pablo Escobar or the guy that sells weed to his friends?
> ...


 
  Drug dealing is throughout the country in every city every state. The Pablo Escabars are just the top and the enablers its the rest of the pyramid that causes all the death and pain. There are more overdoses resulting in death than murder by gun and I submit the Pablo Escobars on down to the scumbag that put the dime bag in the kids hand are murderers. Over and above overdoses the murder rate is huge for drug dealers and users. How many crimes with a gun are committed that result in murder in the pursuit of money for Drugs, how many other crime categories are boosted because of drugs and addiction to drugs, armed robbery, robbery, B&Es, Muggings, home invasions,  untold numbers.
If that older lawyer is still around tell him Id like to know how many drug dealers does he think would put up billboards and take full page ads out in the newspaper if they knew they couldnt get busted by some scumbag murderous LEO. 
  That doesnt account for the murders of their own,  Drugs are a scourge and Drug dealers are the enablers and there are pure scum.

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## Guest

> Drug dealing is throughout the country in every city every state. The Pablo Escabars are just the top and the enablers its the rest of the pyramid that causes all the death and pain. There are more overdoses resulting in death than murder by gun and I submit the Pablo Escobars on down to the scumbag that put the dime bag in the kids hand are murderers. Over and above overdoses the murder rate is huge for drug dealers and users. How many crimes with a gun are committed that result in murder in the pursuit of money for Drugs, how many other crime categories are boosted because of drugs and addiction to drugs, armed robbery, robbery, B&Es, Muggings, home invasions,  untold numbers.
> If that older lawyer is still around tell him Id like to know how many drug dealers does he think would put up billboards and take full page ads out in the newspaper if they knew they couldnt get busted by some scumbag murderous LEO. 
>   That doesnt account for the murders of their own,  Drugs are a scourge and Drug dealers are the enablers and there are pure scum.


You're new-ish, you're polite, and for some reason I don't want to get into this today.  

Black market capitalism must exist in the shadows, the shadows causes violence because their profit margin is 500% and up.  We've helped create these demons you hate by criminalizing something that we should treat as a medical issue.  I know people who have done drugs, do drugs, never became addicted and are physicians, lawyers, software developers, etc today.

I know people who are alcoholics and beat their wives and kids.

I know potheads who work at the movie theater and are some of the happiest people I know.

I know people like @The XL who don't do anything and consider Tostitos to be a harmful substance.

Basically, I don't believe I have the moral right to an opinion on the choices and lives of others to the point where I would arrest someone, hold them against their will in a yellow painted concrete block wall room with dirty, smelly air for a year because they decided to do a drug that made them feel good and yet hang out at the club that night with people paying $20 for overpriced cocktails.

I get that you believe all this, but I've lived in the ghetto, I've lived in high rent districts and I see more harm from the war on drugs than drugs.

We can't treat vices like crime.  We treat them as social or medical issues, or else we're the immoral ones.

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## Maximatic

> Drug dealing is throughout the country in every city every state. The Pablo Escabars are just the top and the enablers its the rest of the pyramid that causes all the death and pain. There are more overdoses resulting in death than murder by gun and I submit the Pablo Escobars on down to the scumbag that put the dime bag in the kids hand are murderers. Over and above overdoses the murder rate is huge for drug dealers and users. How many crimes with a gun are committed that result in murder in the pursuit of money for Drugs, how many other crime categories are boosted because of drugs and addiction to drugs, armed robbery, robbery, B&Es, Muggings, home invasions,  untold numbers.
> If that older lawyer is still around tell him Id like to know how many drug dealers does he think would put up billboards and take full page ads out in the newspaper if they knew they couldnt get busted by some scumbag murderous LEO. 
>   That doesnt account for the murders of their own,  Drugs are a scourge and Drug dealers are the enablers and there are pure scum.


I see that you have an emotional reaction to this issue like St Mike does. All of the problems you talk about here are greatly exacerbated by the fact that drugs are criminalized. Many of them, such as other crime in the drug trade, wouldn't exist at all if the government didn't criminalize them. People who do drugs are doing what they want to do to their own bodies, and there isn't any moral claim you can have against them, for that, in principal.

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## Guest

You know, everyone commits 3 felonies a day on average now that we have as many laws on the books as we do (great read: Three Felonies a Day)...and yet I still get no respect for my job until someone needs me.

THEN I'm like Wonder Woman when I walk in.

All cops = good and misunderstood  

All attorneys = bad and in it for the money

...Tell that to Mr. Florence when a speeding ticket got him butt raped by a cops finger because that Christian black man could possibly have been speeding away from a terroristic event and his attorney was the only person on his side.

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## Francesco

This just proves the point of the great big American okie doke, as I've heard it been called. And you know entirely well what I mean "your standard of living is always improving, all men are equal, justice is blind, the american dream, and in this case the police is on your side." This drug war is really making me angry, we're so barbaric, every time we don't like something in this country we declare war on it. We love war, the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on poverty, the war on aids, etc. I have a great idea, we're so keen on the government not being tyrannical why don't they leave drugs alone and spend our money on things that actually make a difference, like hahah education.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-26-2013),The XL (04-25-2013)

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## Maximatic

> This just proves the point of the great big American okie doke, as I've heard it been called. And you know entirely well what I mean "your standard of living is always improving, all men are equal, justice is blind, the american dream, and in this case the police is on your side." This drug war is really making me angry, we're so barbaric, every time we don't like something in this country we declare war on it. We love war, the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on poverty, the war on aids, etc. I have a great idea, we're so keen on the government not being tyrannical why don't they leave drugs alone and spend our money on things that actually make a difference, like hahah education.


You had me right up 'till the "spend our money on..." part.

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Gemini (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> You had me right up 'till the "spend our money on..." part.


I kind of ran out of steam so I used that good old saying laborers  use, "spend your money on useful things!"

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## Guest

> This just proves the point of the great big American okie doke, as I've heard it been called. And you know entirely well what I mean "your standard of living is always improving, all men are equal, justice is blind, the american dream, and in this case the police is on your side." This drug war is really making me angry, we're so barbaric, every time we don't like something in this country we declare war on it. We love war, the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on poverty, the war on aids, etc. I have a great idea, we're so keen on the government not being tyrannical why don't they leave drugs alone and spend our money on things that actually make a difference, like hahah education.


Do you see now why some people don't want the police and government to be the only ones with: guns, tasers, clubs, and force?

--and, yeh, you had me until the "spend our money" part, too.

However, I'm really proud of you that you jumped into the mix and I'm glad you're posting here.  For one, you've got @The XL being ...um... less...ummmm...yeh...nicer?  And secondly, you've tempered me a little.

Good show!

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## Francesco

Thank you very much, in all honesty I know that even repealing the second amendment will do nothing about gun violence, its a dream I hold on to though. I feel though that gun control has to toughen up, a lot.

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## Maximatic

> I kind of ran out of steam so I used that good old saying lab others use, "spend your money on useful things!"


I hear ya. It's also a good policy for everyone to just spend their own money.

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Rain (04-25-2013)

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## Guest

> Thank you very much, in all honesty I know that even repealing the second amendment will do nothing about gun violence, its a dream I hold on to though. I feel though that gun control has to toughen up, a lot.


Can I ask you something?  Is it really guns that you're upset about or just violence?

For example, stabbing versus a bullet.  The person stabbed hates it just as much, maybe more because it's...ickier--sorry, knives bother me... ::shudders:: (something else for weird quirks thread).

If we could make an improvement in the culture of violence would it bother you that people had guns?

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## Francesco

[QUOTE=Maximatic;62589]I hear ya. It's also a good policy for everyone to just spend their own money.
thank you, yes the government really should just leave these types of subjects alone, Dick Cheney was never a people person as this is kind of a social issue

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## The XL

> This just proves the point of the great big American okie doke, as I've heard it been called. And you know entirely well what I mean "your standard of living is always improving, all men are equal, justice is blind, the american dream, and in this case the police is on your side." This drug war is really making me angry, we're so barbaric, every time we don't like something in this country we declare war on it. We love war, the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on poverty, the war on aids, etc. I have a great idea, we're so keen on the government not being tyrannical why don't they leave drugs alone and spend our money on things that actually make a difference, like hahah education.


You're only 14 and you're smarter than 90% of this forum.

Good for you.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-26-2013)

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## Common

> And I would say that if the DA and police did their job in accordance with the law there would be far fewer Huntley's that get people those miraculous plea bargains.  
> 
> Look, defense attorneys can only "get people off" when either mistakes are made or their client is innocent and has money.  
> 
> If your client is innocent-innocent then they are more likely than not to be punished for their innocence if they are poor and rewarded with freedom if they are rich.  If they are guilty, they can take a plea and feel grateful to have it.
> 
> 
> 
> And regular old humans make mistakes out of fear.  They still go to jail.


  Rina that is not true, lawyers get clients off by weaving fairy tales to the jury. There is nothing more fickled than a jury thats why lawyers hire experts to choose who will be most likely to be molded by their bullshit. Thats how clients get off.

  Rememeber David Westerfield, he coerced his neighbors 12 yr old daughter into his house raped her repeatedly murdered her. His two lawyers KNEW he was guilty and carried on a campaign in the courtroom not only blaming the parents but degrading them while they were Negotiating a Pleas deal that if westerfield gave them the body the death penalty would be off the table. 
  You cant tell me that clients only get off when the DA or the Police make mistakes that is boulderdash.

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## Common

> This just proves the point of the great big American okie doke, as I've heard it been called. And you know entirely well what I mean "your standard of living is always improving, all men are equal, justice is blind, the american dream, and in this case the police is on your side." This drug war is really making me angry, we're so barbaric, every time we don't like something in this country we declare war on it. We love war, the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on poverty, the war on aids, etc. I have a great idea, we're so keen on the government not being tyrannical why don't they leave drugs alone and spend our money on things that actually make a difference, like hahah education.


  Nice post francesco and I believe there would be many police happy if the war on drugs was ended. Police didnt start the war on drugs nor did the write the laws that they are bound to uphold.

----------


## Common

> I don't.  When I say I want an end to the drug war, I am acknowledging that 65% of what I make each year will be gone.  If it is about money for me and not about the people that walk through my door I'd be for the drug war.  These people that come into my office are going to be locked up next to pedophiles for putting something in their own body...nope.  I can't have that.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand.  I don't make excuses for murder though.  If you've taken a life you are worthless to me.  I don't care if you are a gang banger or a cop.
> 
> Everyone knows and cares when a gang shooting occurs.  Those people are demonized right away.  I don't need a pile onto that to get people to wake up to a problem because the media does that quite well.
> 
> Why I bring up the police incidents is that they are in a position of public trust and when they are overzealous and people die...nothing is ever done.


  What you call overzealous is adrenaline and fear, thats right fear I hope you realize that stopping a vehicle on a quiet pitch dark road is one of the most dangerous things a cop can do, when he exits his vehicle the hair on the back of his neck is standing up and his entire being is tense not knowing what to expect. Is that right? I dont know, Is it wrong?
   Have you ever been givin an order to enter a house with Unkown. Unknown number of occupants, unknown number of weapons, unknown if theres kids. Unknown if theres explosives on the other side of the door. Cops get scared and nervous rina they are human beings and when your in those kinds of situations often its like any other profession. Dr, Lawyer, TV repairman, Auto Mechanic chances are you will make an mistake that may cost your life or an error in split second judgement that may unfortunately hurt some one else.
   People rant about police brutality and mistakes. If you would go research the MILLIONS of interactions  on a monthly basis police have with citizens good and bad and take the number of mistakes You will find its miniscule. When some professions make a mistake no one knows when a cop makes a mistake the country knows and theres a long line of lawyers hoping to cash in on it.

----------


## Guest

> Rina that is not true, lawyers get clients off by weaving fairy tales to the jury. There is nothing more fickled than a jury thats why lawyers hire experts to choose who will be most likely to be molded by their bullshit. Thats how clients get off.


How many cases have you taken to a jury trial?  5,6, 10?

I just want to know about the experience that allows you to tell me how attorneys "get people off".  90% of all cases never go to a jury, so, no that's not how attorneys get people off.  Most people--even totally innocent-innocent ones end up taking pleas.  Trials are too expensive for most people to afford and legal aid isn't all that hot about taking things to trial, either.

You make the assumption that everyone who is in need of an attorney is guilty when you say these things, and I find that misguided and a bit sad.  I'm going to assume you're a police officer or related to one and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the law books these days would take a forklift to move into my office.  Moreover, the police are pretty much forced to make an arrest in every situation.  People--at least in my state--cannot withdraw a complaint, can't choose not to press charges and have the ada always comply.  It it still up to them and a lot of times they don't because the city is afraid of lawsuits for malicious prosecution.

We had a client whose physical handicap prevented him from doing what he was accused of, but the city was so afraid that the family would sue that they put this man through absolute hell that I wish I could describe because it still makes me mad.




> Rememeber David Westerfield, he coerced his neighbors 12 yr old daughter into his house raped her repeatedly murdered her. His two lawyers KNEW he was guilty and carried on a campaign in the courtroom not only blaming the parents but degrading them while they were Negotiating a Pleas deal that if westerfield gave them the body the death penalty would be off the table.


I don't know this case, so I won't comment on it.  Why I said "most" is because, again, "most" cases never go to trial.  They are pled out.  They would not be pled out if there wasn't a solid case.  Attorneys attack how the evidence was collected during hearings, how the confession was collected, etc.  When they are left with too little to make their original top charge stick, that's when the plea occurs.

Or, occasionally, the ada will see someone with no priors and have mercy.

In cases where minor children are involved, however, there are a great many lawyers who won't take those cases (adas know this) and they also know that the people of the state won't accept a plea deal without calling for their job.  That's when you see trials.




> You cant tell me that clients only get off when the DA or the Police make mistakes that is boulderdash.


You brought up OJ (I think) and in that case there were problems with the discovery--same with Casey Anthony.  When that happens the jury never sees the evidence you see on TV.  Without a huge pile of evidence the DA or ADA won't be able to provide the "beyond" part of the reasonable doubt.

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## Guest

> What you call overzealous is adrenaline and fear, thats right fear I hope you realize that stopping a vehicle on a quiet pitch dark road is one of the most dangerous things a cop can do, when he exits his vehicle the hair on the back of his neck is standing up and his entire being is tense not knowing what to expect. Is that right? I dont know, Is it wrong?


My husband was combat deployed because of his MOS to some of the hottest spots in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It was eventually what took his life, however, he received letters constantly because he upheld the Marine Corps code and didn't allow his fear to make him take that training that turned him into a weapon and use it on the populace that was probably threaded with AQ.

It is a high risk job.  I get that.  I really get that because I deal with the same crazies--it's not like they stop being insane after an arrest.  I've got cracked ribs, a broken nose, and multiple wounds from just doing my job.




> Have you ever been givin an order to enter a house with Unkown. Unknown number of occupants, unknown number of weapons, unknown if theres kids. Unknown if theres explosives on the other side of the door. Cops get scared and nervous rina they are human beings and when your in those kinds of situations often its like any other profession.


I have said often that some of the best LEOs I've known were in a southern town near where I went to undergrad.  I had to do work with them as an internship and to this day I write the sheriff and send them pizzas on Friday nights.  If the NYPD was run like that place I'd have no complaints.

Unfortunately, it is not.  Unfortunately, the police force in Detroit was not.  

MY first experience with the police was when I was 8 years old and a cop hit me in the face with a tightly rolled up newspaper because my English was bad and I didn't understand what he was asking me.  I didn't know to be afraid of cops back then.  Over the years in Detroit I learned that we were sport on days when they were having it rough and didn't want to go home to their wives in that mood.

Yes, I believe there are Andy Griffith type guy still out there in America, but the laws and culture of the US is making them few and far between.  After I handled a police brutality case I called the Sheriff I used to work with and we talked about it and I asked him if it was a big city thing or not and he told me that the problem with the LEO's is these things:

1.  They are no longer "peace officers"
2.  The unions have made it impossible to keep bad cops off the streets
3.  Captains don't have the ability like sheriffs to bring everyone in and check them out before they hit the streets--he said that he does this daily, and
4. The culture is changing to wear cops are no longer under the impression that there should be risks involved in their job so they take less time to negotiate a positive outcome




> Dr, Lawyer, TV repairman, Auto Mechanic chances are you will make an mistake that may cost your life or an error in split second judgement that may unfortunately hurt some one else.


If I make a mistake someone loses their freedom.  That's pretty stressful.  Also, I go to parts of this city that angels fear to tread to find people and interview them.  I take risks every day, which is why my friend forced me to get the bg.




> People rant about police brutality and mistakes. If you would go research the MILLIONS of interactions  on a monthly basis police have with citizens good and bad and take the number of mistakes You will find its miniscule. When some professions make a mistake no one knows when a cop makes a mistake the country knows and theres a long line of lawyers hoping to cash in on it.


I don't see this in my job.  Sorry.  I'm sure you are one of the good ones, but...I just don't.  As for the "cashing in"...that's a load.  There was a man who was taken in on a DUI, left in a solitary confinement cell on accident for two years without hearings and trial and lost all his teeth, didn't bathe, etc and the guy got 2 million only.

No one knew where he was for two years and he never saw trial.  Two million may seem like a lot but...not for two whole years gone and all your teeth.

The big payoffs are not that big.

Anyway, I think that you are insulted by my feelings about your profession and I'm sorry.  That's pretty much all I can say.  We have assaults on liberty here like the Stop and Frisk and that really doesn't do much to change my opinion, neither does seeing a lady walk in that has a goose egg and missing tooth because cops thought she walked through the doors on the subway train and threw her to the ground when she was trying to explain why she was innocent.

NOW, if you want to talk about "all" cops then I would refer you back to that small town police force I interned with and I'd be more than happy to praise a bunch of guys that also go into homes with guns--hell, in that state everyone's carrying, still see drugs (meth labs are all over the quiet countryside) and STILL manage to be respectful and decent to people.

It's about the culture and the unions.  Being a cop doesn't turn people into automatic assholes.  It's not the job itself, it's the culture of the place where they work.

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usfan (04-26-2013)

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## Common

> How many cases have you taken to a jury trial?  5,6, 10?
> 
> I just want to know about the experience that allows you to tell me how attorneys "get people off".  90% of all cases never go to a jury, so, no that's not how attorneys get people off.  Most people--even totally innocent-innocent ones end up taking pleas.  Trials are too expensive for most people to afford and legal aid isn't all that hot about taking things to trial, either.
> 
> You make the assumption that everyone who is in need of an attorney is guilty when you say these things, and I find that misguided and a bit sad.  I'm going to assume you're a police officer or related to one and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the law books these days would take a forklift to move into my office.  Moreover, the police are pretty much forced to make an arrest in every situation.  People--at least in my state--cannot withdraw a complaint, can't choose not to press charges and have the ada always comply.  It it still up to them and a lot of times they don't because the city is afraid of lawsuits for malicious prosecution.
> 
> We had a client whose physical handicap prevented him from doing what he was accused of, but the city was so afraid that the family would sue that they put this man through absolute hell that I wish I could describe because it still makes me mad.
> 
> 
> ...


  Ive been in dozens of trials rina, ive seen many known guilties walk out the door and every cop and every attorney knows that. That is your job to win at all costs, not you personally the profession. CDLS do not make money if they dont win no one seeks out losing attorneys 
 Are guilty people convicted absolutley but this conversation isnt about trials it started about cops picking on poor drug dealers and being overzealous.
 Since the beginning lawyers have used putting the cop on trial to get their dirtbag off the hook. You know that and I know that its a key attorney ploy. Actually everyone knows it.
 What im trying to convey here is that the Police are not the problem in the criminal justice chain. Police didnt write the drug war laws, lawyers did, police dont write any laws, mostly lawyers do, Police are bound by statute to enforce the laws written mostly by YES lawyers.
When they do that other lawyers want to put them on trial, its a vicious cycle.
  Do you have overzealous Police yes . Do you have have Overzealous District Attorneys and ADAS yes, Do you have overzealous CDLs that lie cheat steal twist misrepresent and falsely accuse to win at all costs yes. No one has clean hands rina.\
  WHo is worse rina who is more culpable, The overzealous cop that locks the suspect up, The overzealous DA that brings hell and brimstone down on the defendent, or the overzealous CDL that weaves fairy tales blames the cop, blames the victim blames the victims mother, brings in PAID totally full of shit lieing Experts and on and on. Who is the worst Rina, I honestly dont know.
I know young lawyers like to view themselves as all good as all saviors with wings and halos and I respect their ideals and their committment to their education and I dont fault them for DOING THEIR JOB even when  they make mistakes, because we ALL make mistakes rina. Thats all Im trying to say young lady  :Smile:

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## Guest

@Common

I'll explain my problem...

Unfortunately, when you represent both "the People" and "the rule of Law" you must be held to higher standards.  If you are going to arrest criminals you have to act better than they do.  

As I've said, there are good cops that I would call in a heartbeat and trust them.  Then there is the NYPD.

As for attorneys...I will say that I have never taken a case involving children.  There was one case where I felt that the individual wasn't guilty, but at the same time I also have no experience because I don't take those cases to do my job properly.  We all have to live within our comfort zone.

SOME attorneys don't care who they represent and it is about money to them.  True.  Absolutely true.  Some attorneys just want steady work and they go to work for the city.   :Smile: 

But, I've found in my circle that most people in this practice area do so they can defend a principle, not a person, or they have a story to tell.  

Anyway, I'm sure you were a good cop.  You seem like a good guy.

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## webrockk

"Police admitted their mistake, saying faulty information from a *drug informant* contributed to the death...."

Ah...what could go wrong?

Criminal trial attorneys make their livings discrediting testimony from disreputable sources....
jackboot "public servants" become judge, jury, and executioner on the testimony of disreputable sources.

----------



----------


## usfan

> Yes, I believe there are Andy Griffith type guy still out there in America, but the laws and culture of the US is making them few and far between.  After I handled a police brutality case I called the Sheriff I used to work with and we talked about it and I asked him if it was a big city thing or not and he told me that the problem with the LEO's is these things:
> 
> 1.  They are no longer "peace officers"
> 2.  The unions have made it impossible to keep bad cops off the streets
> 3.  Captains don't have the ability like sheriffs to bring everyone in and check them out before they hit the streets--he said that he does this daily, and
> 4. The culture is changing to wear cops are no longer under the impression that there should be risks involved in their job so they take less time to negotiate a positive outcome


Unfortunately, i agree with your assessment here.  I have little contact with the police, & the few times i get pulled over, they are generally respectful toward me.  But this is in a small town &  mostly county cops.  My age & manner may also contribute to their attitude toward me.

But both of my sons have had much different dealings with local cops.  My older son was caught in a 'sting' where they were looking for dui's.  He was going to home depot ~10am, to get more grout for a tile job.  He had grout dust on him & his face.  The cops accused him of snorting coke!  They cuffed him & hauled him to jail.  We had to go & bail him out.  The younger son also has had several negative interactions with cops.  I've had some good cop friends.. played golf with them & enjoyed their company.  But there are many who are power tripping, arrogant brutes.  My wife works with an ex la cop.  He is a jerk to everyone, & is very hard to be around.  She also once worked for a short time as a county dispatcher, years ago.  But the constant negativity & crude manners of the cops made her quit.

While there have always been bad cops, i think the proliferation of them has made it worse.  They also live in an 'us against them' culture, where everyone NOT in the law enforcement system is the enemy.  Most are cynical, viewing justice as a game.  Some are very good at what they do, & have a keen eye for details.  They deal with human evil & misery all their lives.. i completely understand how they become jaded & cynical.  I do not blame them & what they have evolved to as much as the system.  If it was better at providing justice, cops would feel their jobs were more useful.  But all they do is the same calls, with the same kind of people, every night.  Inner city cops have a tough life, & i applaud them for their service.  But their psyches pay the price.

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## Common

I concede  :Smile:

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## usfan

> I concede


I don't think there is anything to concede.. i also agree with rina that you were probably one of the good guys.. by your conversation here.

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## webrockk

> Unfortunately, i agree with your assessment here.  I have little contact with the police, & the few times i get pulled over, they are generally respectful toward me.  But this is in a small town &  mostly county cops.  My age & manner may also contribute to their attitude toward me.
> 
> But both of my sons have had much different dealings with local cops.  My older son was caught in a 'sting' where they were looking for dui's.  He was going to home depot ~10am, to get more grout for a tile job.  He had grout dust on him & his face.  The cops accused him of snorting coke!  They cuffed him & hauled him to jail.  We had to go & bail him out.  The younger son also has had several negative interactions with cops.  I've had some good cop friends.. played golf with them & enjoyed their company.  But there are many who are power tripping, arrogant brutes.  My wife works with an ex la cop.  He is a jerk to everyone, & is very hard to be around.  She also once worked for a short time as a county dispatcher, years ago.  But the constant negativity & crude manners of the cops made her quit.
> 
> While there have always been bad cops, i think the proliferation of them has made it worse.  They also live in an 'us against them' culture, where everyone NOT in the law enforcement system is the enemy.  Most are cynical, viewing justice as a game.  Some are very good at what they do, & have a keen eye for details.  They deal with human evil & misery all their lives.. i completely understand how they become jaded & cynical.  I do not blame them & what they have evolved to as much as the system.  If it was better at providing justice, cops would feel their jobs were more useful.  But all they do is the same calls, with the same kind of people, every night.  Inner city cops have a tough life, & i applaud them for their service.  But their psyches pay the price.


My age has permitted me to witness the evolution of local law enforcement from black and _mostly_ white cruisers, light colored uniforms, and a generally welcoming, "protect and serve" disposition....

to a sinister "all black" color scheme and attitude. 

I'm given to sometimes wonder if it's a chicken / egg scenario....where interminable laws and the agents of their enforcement are _leading the descent_ into mistrustful, confrontational and disrespectful cultural norms, or "society" itself is wholly to blame for the intimidating transformation.

----------



----------


## garyo

> http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95...1#.UXif-crdrQz
> 
>   A 61-year-old man was shot to death by police while his wife was handcuffed in another room during a drug 
> 
>  raid on the wrong house. 
> 
> 
>  Police admitted their mistake, saying faulty information from a drug informant contributed to the death of John Adams Wednesday night. They intended to raid the home next door. 
> 
> ...

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## garyo

That is happening more than you know, happened in Lake county Fl, didn't identify themselves,shot homeowner dead at 2 in the morning, but they are going to review their procedures, fucking idiots.

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lostbeyond (04-26-2013)

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## Common

> I don't think there is anything to concede.. i also agree with rina that you were probably one of the good guys.. by your conversation here.


    Thanks usfan, but I believe that the lionshare are good guys and gals, its the bad ones that get national attention and make everyone look bad. Everyone hates to have someone MUCH younger tell them what they can and cant do. Everyone HATES when they know a less educated person is telling them what they can and cant do. There are people of position in society that hate someone of much less stature telling them what to do and theres plenty of out right ASSHOLES that never listened to anyone ever. Cops just cant win  :Frown: . The only time you feel good about yourself is when a mother hugs you tight and says thank you or a father grabs your hand and and looks you in the eye and says thank you or when any  person looks at you and just says thanks. Just once  makes up for months of being considered a scumbag  :Smile: 
       There are many depts that lack resources and dont have sufficient training and equiptment. Training is KEY to success and thats what lawyers murdered cops with for decades. They always hit them in court on their training or lack of. Training has improved dramatically. Cops today are far better trained and equiped then cops of old ever where but there are many depts now starting to slack because of FUNDING. Everywhere money is problem now as we all know.

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## JohnAdams

I am sorry but a warrant should not have been issued on the word of a former drug pusher turned informant alone. WTF is wrong with our justice system today? Seems every time one turns around judges are as corrupt as they come. Issuing warrants on little or no actual probable cause. Oh and no I don't push or do illicit street drugs, yes I was shot, no I'm not dead and yes I"m fed up with the corruption in our legal system.

I think the thing that really tore it with me, was when a friend of mine was arrested at her home, she asks the cops why am I being arrested? They reply "we have a warrant" she asks them "really what for" the cops tell her "we don't know, just has a warrant number and an order of arrest"

So she gets to the jail while being booked she again asks what she's being incarcerated for, and gets told the same thing. So she sits in jail for three days.

Three days later she goes to court, the judge doesn't know what the warrant is for, the state attorney (prosecutor for those who don't know any legal jargon) doesn't know, and her defense attorney doesn't know what the warrant is.

So the judge enters a guilty plea on her behalf, and then dismisses it with time served. Telling her at the time that it was "dimissed"

Now aside from the serious issues with no one even knowing what the warrant is for.

No one bothered to tell her a guilty plea was being entered on her behalf, no one told her that would result in a guilty finding on her record, or that she would now have a police record, while everyone from the police, to the public offenders office, to the state attorney's office, to the judge, were busy railroading her.


Arresting her, taking her to court  charging her, and all seriously folks, for something no one, not the judge, not the prosecutor not the cops, not the public offender she was assigned, even knows what it is.

They still to this day, can't tell my friend, what the charge was. Just has some letters (like a code of some sort) and then the words arrest on finding, next to them on the warrant.

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usfan (04-26-2013)

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## Common

You make a great point that I totally forgot to mention, it was in my head and I never put it in the post. A judge had to determine there was just cause to issue the warrant for the raid. So its a definite that someone in a supervisory position got the address wrong or someone mistyped the number of the house because they went to the house next door. Or it could be the supervisor on the scene directed his squat into the wrong house. Either way a mistake was made. I cant say unfortunate mistake because it was totally unnecessary and led to a death. sigh

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## webrockk

> I am sorry but a warrant should not have been issued on the word of a former drug pusher turned informant alone. WTF is wrong with our justice system today? Seems every time one turns around judges are as corrupt as they come. Issuing warrants on little or no actual probable cause. Oh and no I don't push or do illicit street drugs, yes I was shot, no I'm not dead and yes I"m fed up with the corruption in our legal system.
> 
> I think the thing that really tore it with me, was when a friend of mine was arrested at her home, she asks the cops why am I being arrested? They reply "we have a warrant" she asks them "really what for" the cops tell her "we don't know, just has a warrant number and an order of arrest"
> 
> So she gets to the jail while being booked she again asks what she's being incarcerated for, and gets told the same thing. So she sits in jail for three days.
> 
> Three days later she goes to court, the judge doesn't know what the warrant is for, the state attorney (prosecutor for those who don't know any legal jargon) doesn't know, and her defense attorney doesn't know what the warrant is.
> 
> So the judge enters a guilty plea on her behalf, and then dismisses it with time served. Telling her at the time that it was "dimissed"
> ...


Back in my crazy Harley biker days, I confronted the mother of a [very much disliked punk / trouble maker] 16 year old next door neighbor kid who threw his empty [glass] Snapple bottle at me as I rode past his house....striking me in the back.  Well, I skidded to a stop, and put the bike on the stand in the middle of the street.  

He and his little punk posse were sitting in their driveway, and got all puffed up and tough acting as I walked past them to pound on his equally disliked, POS single mother's front door.  When she answered, I simply said she'd "better reign her child in or there's going to be a problem" and turned to walk away....to wit, she launched into a spitting, profanity laced tirade and started shoving and kicking me... (she; about 5' 2", and meth head thin....me; 6' 4", 225, in biker leathers, hair down to my ass, and a beard)... which, given the laughable size difference, I "took" while backing up to get away from her (all while being threatened (from a distance) by the teens).  
A neighbor must have heard the commotion and called the PoPo...which showed up almost immediately....within minutes, anyway.  So this diminutive, fresh faced, lone cop gets out of his cruiser and starts barking commands as I'm calmly walking towards him to explain the situation....complying, I stop, drop to my knees, hands up...while he walks over to the mother to get "the story"....next thing I know, three more cruisers show up, and I'm Mirandized, cuffed, stuffed and taken for a 25 minute ride to county...saying "What The Fuck!!?? the whole way. 

This was on a Friday, around 8:00 pm.  After being processed, I was told the judge wouldn't hear cases until _MONDAY_ morning at 9:00 am.  So, anyway I'm cooling my heels in a noisy cage for three days...and no one...despite my repeated demands...has.. or is... telling me what I've been charged with.

Monday's hearing comes, and I'm FINALLY informed of the charges...."felonious assault, menacing, disturbing the peace" I hear...."NOT GUILTY!!" I bellow.  Long story, short...I bonded out, got a good lawyer, and..with a plethora of eye witnesses who heard and saw the encounter.... easily beat the rap.  and it *only* cost me three days in the joint, and about $2,500.00 in lawyer fees.

Now _in those_ days, I was not so much the congenial, understanding and lovable ball of fur you may have seen on the pages of the forum...I was in deep with a pretty rough crowd (I'll leave it at that)...and knew of only one response to such injustice.  Revenge.  Which I got. (and I'll leave _that_ at that)  :Smile:

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usfan (04-26-2013)

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## GrassrootsConservative

There is an extremely fine line between cops and criminals.

It's too bad cops are such a necessary evil.

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usfan (04-26-2013)

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## Archer

> There is an extremely fine line between cops and criminals.
> 
> It's too bad cops are such a necessary evil.


Are they necessary? The wild west proved that it is not so. Lower crime rates and higher armed percentage of armed people.

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## Francesco

> You're only 14 and you're smarter than 90% of this forum.
> 
> Good for you.


Thanks that means something to me

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garyo (04-26-2013),The XL (04-26-2013)

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## Francesco

> Can I ask you something?  Is it really guns that you're upset about or just violence?
> 
> For example, stabbing versus a bullet.  The person stabbed hates it just as much, maybe more because it's...ickier--sorry, knives bother me... ::shudders:: (something else for weird quirks thread).
> 
> If we could make an improvement in the culture of violence would it bother you that people had guns?


It's violence in general, mostly because its brought unto us by the upper class. They keep the social boundaries so that we the middle and lower class are left divided and fighting and they can go off and and run away with all the money, simple concept happens to work.this gun debate is just another way for us to be divided as a nation, I hate to sound like Lincoln but its true. Then again people will always be violent.

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## usfan

I would guess you go to public school, somewhere...  At some point in your life, you will think beyond what you are spoon fed in school, & the entertainment media, & the hip music artists.  It sounds to me like you're in a left wing echo chamber, & never even hear of alternate views.  I applaud you venturing into this forum.. you will hear many varied ideas, which should provoke you to deeper thought.  Good luck with the process, & keep learning!

Don't let schooling interfere with your education. ~Mark Twain 

"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." ~Albert Einstein

----------


## Francesco

> I would guess you go to public school, somewhere...  At some point in your life, you will think beyond what you are spoon fed in school, & the entertainment media, & the hip music artists.  It sounds to me like you're in a left wing echo chamber, & never even hear of alternate views.  I applaud you venturing into this forum.. you will hear many varied ideas, which should provoke you to deeper thought.  Good luck with the process, & keep learning!
> 
> Don't let schooling interfere with your education. ~Mark Twain 
> 
> "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." ~Albert Einstein


Thank you, and to inform you, I'm not a far left nut, or in a left wing echo chamber, I honestly don't like liberals. I hate how liberals think that there is nothing wrong with this country other than it needs more bicycle path. I have pondered right wing ideas and continue to do the same. And to be honest I think school, or at least our schools are really just an indoctrination center. These indoctrination centers are where we are taught to never question anything, complex ideas are pounded into our heads and we're too young to put up an intellectual defense, so I question everything.

----------

usfan (04-26-2013)

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## Guest

> Thank you, and to inform you, I'm not a far left nut, or in a left wing echo chamber, I honestly don't like liberals. I hate how liberals think that there is nothing wrong with this country other than it needs more bicycle path. I have pondered right wing ideas and continue to do the same. And to be honest I think school, or at least our schools are really just an indoctrination center. These indoctrination centers are where we are taught to never question anything, complex ideas are pounded into our heads and we're too young to put up an intellectual defense, so I question everything.


Have you ever heard of Austrian economics, young one?

----------



----------


## Francesco

> Have you ever heard of Austrian economics, young one?


I'm afraid not, care to explain them to me elder?

----------



----------


## Guest

> I'm afraid not, care to explain them to me elder?


I prefer "Sensei".  

http://www.lewrockwell.com/

Is a very good starting point to educate yourself on this movement that is gaining steam in college campuses that used to be the domain of those heathen, war-mongering Demoncrats.

A stateless society is where it's at.

----------



----------


## Francesco

Thank you, this will be of use to me, Sensei

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The XL (04-26-2013)

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## Guest

> Thank you, this will be of use to me, Sensei


When you're done with that we'll work on feats of strength.  If you read enough Mises you'll be able to move things with your mind.  True story.

Trina, what can we give this young, bright lad as a reward for reading boring economic shit?


--_Psst, Trina is the other half of Trina, aka @The Real American Thinker._

----------


## Maximatic

> Thank you, this will be of use to me, Sensei


Also, if you go ahead and embrace the fact that it's wrong, _for everyone_, to _initiate_ force against anyone else, you'll be two steps ahead of all the statists.

----------


## Francesco

> When you're done with that we'll work on feats of strength.  If you read enough Mises you'll be able to move things with your mind.  True story.
> 
> Trina, what can we give this young, bright lad as a reward for reading boring economic shit?
> 
> 
> --_Psst, Trina is the other half of Trina, aka @The Real American Thinker._


Who is this comrade the real American thinker you speak of?

----------


## Francesco

> Also, if you go ahead and embrace the fact that it's wrong, _for everyone_, to _initiate_ force against anyone else, you'll be two steps ahead of all the statists.


Thank you that's very wise

----------


## Guest

> Who is this comrade the real American thinker you speak of?


Trina is a voluntary socialist such as yourself.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-26-2013)

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> When you're done with that we'll work on feats of strength.  If you read enough Mises you'll be able to move things with your mind.  True story.
> 
> Trina, what can we give this young, bright lad as a reward for reading boring economic shit?
> 
> 
> --_Psst, Trina is the other half of Trina, aka @The Real American Thinker._


How about Dr. Paul's _Liberty Defined_?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

As to the OP, the fact that these two cops got paid leave for what they did AND a pathetic "they did no wrong" defense from the chief shows that justice in this country is dead.

----------


## Guest

> How about Dr. Paul's _Liberty Defined_?


I quite agree, Trina.  I also like "Revolution".  It makes me feel saucy when I read it.  Our new lad here seems to be something of a revolutionary and a power to the people type.

I would also recommend "My Life is my Sundance" or "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse"--two books that set my feet upon my current path.

http://www.amazon.com/Prison-Writing.../dp/0312263805

Also, @Francesco were I you and planned on staying on this little forum in the wilderness...I have a hint: Stay away from @Network.  Tho he is a graduate of the Mises school, he's also a reptilian shapeshifter.  Nasty business that.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-26-2013)

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## Guest

> Thanks usfan, but I believe that the lionshare are good guys and gals, its the bad ones that get national attention and make everyone look bad.


I think the lionshare of small town cops are awesome guys.  I wouldn't piss on the NYPD if it was on fire.  Sorry.   :Frown: 




> Everyone hates to have someone MUCH younger tell them what they can and cant do. Everyone HATES when they know a less educated person is telling them what they can and cant do. There are people of position in society that hate someone of much less stature telling them what to do and theres plenty of out right ASSHOLES that never listened to anyone ever.


True, they also don't like upstart females fresh out of law school and they like them even less when four years later they're still there and winning cases.  Huzzah!




> Cops just cant win . The only time you feel good about yourself is when a mother hugs you tight and says thank you or a father grabs your hand and and looks you in the eye and says thank you or when any  person looks at you and just says thanks. Just once  makes up for months of being considered a scumbag


You know what @Common, I think you say a lot about yourself as a cop if a) people want to hug you, and b) you're the type of cop that lets them.

I hope you convince more police officers to be open, caring, and huggable.  Seriously.




> There are many depts that lack resources and dont have sufficient training and equiptment. Training is KEY to success and thats what lawyers murdered cops with for decades. They always hit them in court on their training or lack of. Training has improved dramatically. Cops today are far better trained and equiped then cops of old ever where but there are many depts now starting to slack because of FUNDING. Everywhere money is problem now as we all know.


The NYPD are the stormtrooper of Bloomberg's evil empire.  They get training and funding...and yet, they're still assholes.

...sorry, I'm bitter.  I need to move to a small town somewhere, I swear.

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Common (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> I quite agree, Trina.  I also like "Revolution".  It makes me feel saucy when I read it.  Our new lad here seems to be something of a revolutionary and a power to the people type.
> 
> I would also recommend "My Life is my Sundance" or "In the Spirit of Crazy Horse"--two books that set my feet upon my current path.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Prison-Writing.../dp/0312263805
> 
> Also, @Francesco were I you and planned on staying on this little forum in the wilderness...I have a hint: Stay away from @Network.  Tho he is a graduate of the Mises school, he's also a reptilian shapeshifter.  Nasty business that.


All that does is spark my curiosity, now I want to meet him.

----------


## Guest

> All that does is spark my curiosity, now I want to meet him.


 @Network is a character.  You can go to his profile and read the...uhhhh..._interesting_ threads he's come up with.  He is my forum nemesis and strange fixation.

----------


## Francesco

Anyways as I was saying back in my little rant earlier all of those things that are pounded into our heads as children, are provably untrue at some level or another, we're just so blindly patriotic we don't even care or think otherwise. And one other thing I don't get to choked up about yellow ribbons and flags, those are symbols and I leave symbols to the symbol minded- George Carlin

----------


## Guest

> Anyways as I was saying back in my little rant earlier all of those things that are pounded into our heads as children, are provably untrue at some level or another, we're just so blindly patriotic we don't even care or think otherwise. And one other thing I don't get to choked up about yellow ribbons and flags, those are symbols and I leave symbols to the symbol minded- George Carlin


So @Francesco what are your feelings on our current prevaricator in chief, Obummer?  Paid puppet of bankers or genuine guy?

----------


## Francesco

> So @Francesco what are your feelings on our current prevaricator in chief, Obummer?  Paid puppet of bankers or genuine guy?


The presidents position is a meaningless one, the country was bought and paid for a long time ago. Who really rules, who makes all the money, controls the senate, controls congress, makes the president do what they'd like (national bailout bush administration), the upper 1% of course

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> The presidents position is a meaningless one, the country was bought and paid for a long time ago. Who really rules, who makes all the money, controls the senate, controls congress, makes the president do what they'd like (national bailout bush administration), the upper 1% of course


True, true, but are you one of the people who still believes he's not 100% full of condensed owl shit?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> The presidents position is a meaningless one, the country was bought and paid for a long time ago. Who really rules, who makes all the money, controls the senate, controls congress, makes the president do what they'd like (national bailout bush administration), the upper 1% of course


Not sure if I said it yet, but welcome to the forum, let's be friends  :Big Grin:

----------


## Guest

> Not sure if I said it yet, but welcome to the forum, let's be friends


He's already our friend, Trina.   :Smile:   We like him.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> Not sure if I said it yet, but welcome to the forum, let's be friends


Of course we can be friends!

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> True, true, but are you one of the people who still believes he's not 100% full of condensed owl shit?


I don't believe that, all presidents are. We say we want our politicians to be honest, I say nay if we had a politician that was honest our entire system would collapse

----------


## Guest

> Of course we can be friends!


Since we're taking you under our wing, remember, stay away from @Network.  You can hang with @The XL unless Network's online, too.  Then he becomes a negative influence on XL and he turns into Timmaaay, and that's a mess you need to stay away from.

----------


## Francesco

> Since we're taking you under our wing, remember, stay away from @Network.  You can hang with @The XL unless Network's online, too.  Then he becomes a negative influence on XL and he turns into Timmaaay, and that's a mess you need to stay away from.


Will do

----------



----------


## Guest

> Will do


Also, @Dan40 is certifiably insane, but rather fun to have discussions with.  

So back to you...What do you think of the Leonard Peltier case?  When I was a wise, young radical I was obsessed with him.

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## The XL

> Also, @Dan40 is certifiably insane, but rather fun to have discussions with.  
> 
> So back to you...What do you think of the Leonard Peltier case?  When I was a wise, young radical I was obsessed with him.


He can probably handle Dan40 in a debate about most things rather easily, even at 14.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> He can probably handle Dan40 in a debate about most things rather easily, even at 14.


This is true.  I'd love to see Dan's ass handed to him by a 14 year old.  It would be a day of glory.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> This is true.  I'd love to see Dan's ass handed to him by a 14 year old.  It would be a day of glory.


I accept that challenge

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Dan40

> Also, @Dan40 is certifiably insane, but rather fun to have discussions with.  
> 
> So back to you...What do you think of the Leonard Peltier case?  When I was a wise, young radical I was obsessed with him.


You may have been a young radical.  You've never been wise, and its doubtful you ever will achieve even a modicum of wisdom.

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## Guest

> I accept that challenge


Francesco, I knew that you were the Chosen One.
 @Dan40 when not out stealing balls from small children who accidentally kicked them into his yard often hangs out on the thread about the tshirt and censorship where he likes to pretend that free speech doesn't exist.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> You may have been a young radical.  You've never been wise, and its doubtful you ever will achieve even a modicum of wisdom.


There he is! The proclaimed Dan40

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## Guest

> You may have been a young radical.  You've never been wise, and its doubtful you ever will achieve even a modicum of wisdom.


Ahhhh, there he is.  Throw out young goats and he climbs up from under the bridge.  Good morning, my king of grouchiness.  How are you this fine day?

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> Francesco, I knew that you were the Chosen One.
>  @Dan40 when not out stealing balls from small children who accidentally kicked them into his yard often hangs out on the thread about the tshirt and censorship where he likes to pretend that free speech doesn't exist.


I am the karate kid.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Dan40

> Francesco, I knew that you were the Chosen One.
>  @Dan40 when not out stealing balls from small children who accidentally kicked them into his yard often hangs out on the thread about the tshirt and censorship where he likes to pretend that free speech doesn't exist.


Your closed mind allows no knowledge to enter.  But blame me, whatever excuse allows you peace.

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## Guest

> Your closed mind allows no knowledge to enter.  But blame me, whatever excuse allows you peace.


Dan40, other trolls need to take note of your style and flavor.  You are my favorite grump.

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Gemini (04-27-2013)

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## Dan40

> Ahhhh, there he is.  Throw out young goats and he climbs up from under the bridge.  Good morning, my king of grouchiness.  How are you this fine day?


I'm pleased that I bother you to such an extent.  That is more revealing than any bullshit you post.  There may be hope for you.

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## Dan40

> I am the karate kid.


No, you're just a FNG.  I'll read your posts and see if you're worth a response.

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## Francesco

> No, you're just a FNG.  I'll read your posts and see if you're worth a response.


You'll read my posts to see if they're worth a response, who are you John Wayne? Who made you the sheriff of an online forum? And for your simplistic mind, this isn't the military

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> No, you're just a FNG.  I'll read your posts and see if you're worth a response.


He's awesome and full of win.  You wouldn't know because your dictionary has holes in it.  Speaking of holes, we're talking reparative therapy and @Herman's strap-ons over there.  Care to weigh in?

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## Francesco

> He's awesome and full of win.  You wouldn't know because your dictionary has holes in it.  Speaking of holes, we're talking reparative therapy and @Herman's strap-ons over there.  Care to weigh in?


If there is anything I enjoy talking about even though that was meant towards Dan40 is dildoes and strap ons

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> You'll read my posts to see if they're worth a response, who are you John Wayne? Who made you the sheriff of an online forum? And for your simplistic mind, this isn't the military


Well done.  He is clearly _not_ the sheriff of this online forum.  He's more like the stable hand that washes all our horses when they're in the corral.

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## Guest

> If there is anything I enjoy talking about even though that was meant towards Dan40 is dildoes and strap ons


Well, I certainly like to speak on those topics, myself.

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## Francesco

Well then I should mosby on over to the other thread and jump in

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

@Dan40, did I mention that Ron Paul is a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party? I can't recall.

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## Guest

> I'm pleased that I bother you to such an extent.  That is more revealing than any bullshit you post.  There may be hope for you.


You are the itch I like to scratch, Dan.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> @Dan40, did I mention that Ron Paul is a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party? I can't recall.


Dan40 must have forgotten that fact along with the fact that he admitted liking Bill Clinton.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## The XL

This young man is full of win.  And Dan is agitated to boot.  I love it.

Seriously, you guys should pick a topic and get a debate started.  Like the wars, for instance.

----------



----------


## The XL

> No, you're just a FNG.  I'll read your posts and see if you're worth a response.


He just joined and his rep power is a already more than twice as large as yours.

Face it, you can't handle the karate kid.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> He just joined and his rep power is a already more than twice as large as yours.
> 
> Face it, you can't handle the karate kid.


Is it?  I'm repping the fuck out of the kid.  Oooooh, I should down-rep Dan.  I have mega rep power.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## The XL

> Is it?  I'm repping the fuck out of the kid.  Oooooh, I should down-rep Dan.  I have mega rep power.


Your rep power is only rivialed by mine, but even then, it's 21 points higher.  

You should down rep Dan for the lulz.

----------



----------


## Guest

> Your rep power is only rivialed by mine, but even then, it's 21 points higher.  
> 
> You should down rep Dan for the lulz.


It's because we rep each other.   :Big Grin:  See, I'm about to rep you.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> Is it?  I'm repping the fuck out of the kid.  Oooooh, I should down-rep Dan.  I have mega rep power.


How long have you been on this forum? Seems to me I've been here a couple days and I'm demolishing.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## The XL

> It's because we rep each other.   See, I'm about to rep you.


Indeed.

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## Guest

> How long have you been on this forum?


January, I think.

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## Francesco

And where is Dan40 Ill debate him right now

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## The XL

> January, I think.


Late December.

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## Francesco

Exactly my point

----------


## Guest

> And where is Dan40 Ill debate him right now


That's the spirit!!!  He's on this one, I think

http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...shirt-arrested

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## The XL

> And where is Dan40 Ill debate him right now





 @Dan40

----------



----------


## Guest

> Late December.


Ahhh, that's right...we were supposed to go to Dave and Busters, but "something happened" but I still ended up PMing you from Mount Doom on this forum.

Yes, late December.

----------


## Dan40

> @Dan40, did I mention that Ron Paul is a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party? I can't recall.


Yes you have mentioned that hopeless bullshit at least twice now.  Are you aware that Ron Paul is a REGISTERED REPUBLICAN?
Are you aware that Ron Paul could not have been a member of the Libertarian Party before his 35th birthday?  There was no Libertarian Party.  One wonders why Ron Paul had nothing to do with the formation of the LP.

LP scoreboard:
Senate seats=0/100

House seats=0/435

Governorships= 0/50

STATE upper Houses= 0/1921

STATE lower Houses=0/5410

other elected seats NATIONWIDE=139

The LP is a comedy party.  It is The Republican Party lite.  It has no policy that wasn't taken from the Republican Party.

In its HISTORY, the LP has garnered,,,,,,,,,,wait for it,,,,,,,,,ONE electoral vote.

The LP also claims Leo Tolstoy as one of its people.  He croaked decades before the LP was formed.  More comedy.

AND THIS IS FUN!!!! where IS YOUR LINK TO PROVE RON PAUL IS A LIFETIME MEMBER OF THE LP.  I have searched and searched the web and I'm dam good at it, and I cannot find any claim of lifetime membership in the Libertarian Party.  This includes RonPaul.com.  But I did find this on RonPaul.com: *Though Paul is a Republican, he can be maddeningly uncooperative with his GOP colleagues,* 

So,,,,,,,link please. :Smiley ROFLMAO:  :Headbang:

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> How long have you been on this forum? Seems to me I've been here a couple days and I'm demolishing.


Stick with me and Trina, comrade, and you'll demolish the demolishers.

----------


## Guest

Hey @Dan40, why you avoiding the new kid?  Afraid that a teenager knows more shit than you?

**waits in the bushes after lobbing goat-scented taunt**

----------

Archer (04-27-2013),The XL (04-27-2013)

----------


## The XL

He'll bite.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Yes you have mentioned that hopeless bullshit at least twice now.  Are you aware that Ron Paul is a REGISTERED REPUBLICAN?
> Are you aware that Ron Paul could not have been a member of the Libertarian Party before his 35th birthday?  There was no Libertarian Party.  One wonders why Ron Paul had nothing to do with the formation of the LP.
> 
> LP scoreboard:
> Senate seats=0/100
> 
> House seats=0/435
> 
> Governorships= 0/50
> ...


What was it you said to me when I asked for links? Oh, right..._find it your own damn self_.

----------



----------


## Dan40

> Hey @Dan40, why you avoiding the new kid?  Afraid that a teenager knows more shit than you?
> 
> **waits in the bushes after lobbing goat-scented taunt**


Waiting to see if he's got anything.  You need to reign in your obsession with me.  Its getting creepy.  I respond to your posts.  You mention me in threads I've never even opened.  

Cool it stalker.

----------

Gemini (04-27-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

----------


## Dan40

> You'll read my posts to see if they're worth a response, who are you John Wayne? Who made you the sheriff of an online forum? And for your simplistic mind, this isn't the military


A post leading to a DUMB ASS conclusion for you.  Who decides if you will respond to my posts?  Mommy?  I decide what posts I'll respond to and what posts I'll ignore.  Is that too complicated for you?
I haven't decided YET, but its leaning toward your posts being too dumb, inexperienced, and closed minded, to get a response from me.  All others make their own decisions..

----------


## Guest

> A post leading to a DUMB ASS conclusion for you.  Who decides if you will respond to my posts?  Mommy?  I decide what posts I'll respond to and what posts I'll ignore.  Is that too complicated for you?
> I haven't decided YET, but its leaning toward your posts being too dumb, inexperienced, and closed minded, to get a response from me.  All others make their own decisions..


^^Why I love @Dan40!

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> A post leading to a DUMB ASS conclusion for you.  Who decides if you will respond to my posts?  Mommy?  I decide what posts I'll respond to and what posts I'll ignore.  Is that too complicated for you?
> I haven't decided YET, but its leaning toward your posts being too dumb, inexperienced, and closed minded, to get a response from me.  All others make their own decisions..


Lol, nigga please. You're the most close-minded person on these forums.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

----------


## usfan

> How long have you been on this forum? Seems to me I've been here a couple days and I'm demolishing.


You have powerful sponsors/cheerleaders, grasshopper.  Don't take it too seriously.

It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. ~Pierre Beaumarchais
If you cannot answer a man's argument, all it not lost; you can still call him vile names. ~Elbert Hubbard
"The fundamental cause of trouble in the world is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." ~Bertrand Russell

----------


## Guest

> You have powerful sponsors/cheerleaders, grasshopper.  Don't take it too seriously.


Leave the lad alone.  He's our preciousssss.

----------


## usfan

BTW, one of the tactics i've seen in forums over the years, is that of a 'dogpile'.  That is where those of a sympathetic political bent ridicule & 'pile' on their opponent, usually one at a time.  It is very effective.  Some people get mad & blow up or storm off, while others are brow beaten into submission.  Still others stubbornly fight on against the greater numbers.

Ironically, the left & the collectivists tend to show more solidarity & unity than the right & conservatives.  IMO, it is because of the underlying 'individualist' nature of the right.  They don't tend to come to the aid of a comrade in distress, like the left does.  They will charge across the field, alone, with the reins in their teeth, blasting away with both hands.  The rugged individualism tends to make them distant, even with each other.   :Big Grin:

----------

Archer (04-27-2013),Gemini (04-27-2013)

----------


## Francesco

> A post leading to a DUMB ASS conclusion for you.  Who decides if you will respond to my posts?  Mommy?  I decide what posts I'll respond to and what posts I'll ignore.  Is that too complicated for you?
> I haven't decided YET, but its leaning toward your posts being too dumb, inexperienced, and closed minded, to get a response from me.  All others make their own decisions..


It's quite ironic how you consider me close minded yet, fail to realize that by you denying to respond to me is close minded. Think use the large mammalian brain you have, don't be another waste of space marching patriotically on along with the other slaves of the state. I'm beginning to not like you, you sound to elitist for my liking, and I am very hard to anger. I may be 14 but an elitist swine like you can be intellectually beaten by any fool off the street. I suggest you be a little less hostile and show some respect to your fellow man, you're probably not better than me

----------


## Dan40

> Thank you very much, in all honesty I know that even repealing the second amendment will do nothing about gun violence, its a dream I hold on to though. I feel though that gun control has to toughen up, a lot.


What opinion do you hold about the OVER 100,000 gun control LAWS that currently exist on the books of cities, states, and the federal govt?   Have we passed over 100,000 ineffective gun laws to date?  Will one more change anything?
Would you agree that today's focus on gun control is in the areas of background checks, and "assault weapons," and high capacity magazines?
Do you know that we already have multiple laws about backgrounds checks?
Are you aware that assault weapons have been totally illegal since the 1930's and that there is nowhere an honest citizen can buy one?
Are you aware that high capacity mags are almost strictly used in RIFLES?
Are you aware of the percentage of the 12,664 homicides in 2011 done by perps using RIFLES? 00.025%, 323 out of 12,664 homicides.  And that that number has been steadily DECREASING since 496 in 2007?
Are you aware that small low capacity handguns are the most used weapons in homicides and that they are called Saturday Night Specials and are used almost exclusively by criminals?  And that number has also been steadily DECREASING since 14,916 in 2007?  And that Chicago has the most stringent gun laws and that gun homicides there are INCREASING?

----------


## Guest

> It's quite ironic how you consider me close minded yet, fail to realize that by you denying to respond to me is close minded. Think use the large mammalian brain you have, don't be another waste of space marching patriotically on along with the other slaves of the state. I'm beginning to not like you, you sound to elitist for my liking, and I am very hard to anger. I may be 14 but an elitist swine like you can be intellectually beaten by any fool off the street. I suggest you be a little less hostile and show some respect to your fellow man, you're probably not better than me


Wow, maybe you're not _my_ son at all, but @The XL's secret son.  Surrriously, that was a XL post if I ever saw one.   :Smile:

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Archer

Guys break this crap up this is a discussion not a win/lose game. I feel like my five and six year olds are fighting with their 14 yo sister. Chill.

Don't make me go all Walter White and Break Bad on your tails. I might hurt myself.

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usfan (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> BTW, one of the tactics i've seen in forums over the years, is that of a 'dogpile'.  That is where those of a sympathetic political bent ridicule & 'pile' on their opponent, usually one at a time.  It is very effective.  Some people get mad & blow up or storm off, while others are brow beaten into submission.  Still others stubbornly fight on against the greater numbers.


Yes, @Dan40 does this with great verve and spirit.  As I've said, I enjoy being called a bozo by him.




> Ironically, the left & the collectivists tend to show more solidarity & unity than the right & conservatives.  IMO, it is because of the underlying 'individualist' nature of the right.  They don't tend to come to the aid of a comrade in distress, like the left does.  They will charge across the field, alone, with the reins in their teeth, blasting away with both hands.  The rugged individualism tends to make them distant, even with each other.


I really don't care about "right" or "left".  Trina is a lefty, but I love and will defend Trina.  The Binks is a total bastard but I would defend him even if someone wanted to physically pummel me.

It's just my way.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> Guys break this crap up this is a discussion not a win/lose game. I feel like my five and six year olds are fighting with their 14 yo sister. Chill.
> 
> Don't make me go all Walter White and Break Bad on your tails. I might hurt myself.


Look, I only have another hour before the bg makes me run 3.5 miles with him, so I am allowed to play the win-lose game for another 40.

----------


## Francesco

> What opinion do you hold about the OVER 100,000 gun control LAWS that currently exist on the books of cities, states, and the federal govt?   Have we passed over 100,000 ineffective gun laws to date?  Will one more change anything?
> Would you agree that today's focus on gun control is in the areas of background checks, and "assault weapons," and high capacity magazines?
> Do you know that we already have multiple laws about backgrounds checks?
> Are you aware that assault weapons have been totally illegal since the 1930's and that there is nowhere an honest citizen can buy one?
> Are you aware that high capacity mags are almost strictly used in RIFLES?
> Are you aware of the percentage of the 12,664 homicides in 2011 done by perps using RIFLES? 00.025%, 323 out of 12,664 homicides.  And that that number has been steadily DECREASING since 496 in 2007?
> Are you aware that small low capacity handguns are the most used weapons in homicides and that they are called Saturday Night Specials and are used almost exclusively by criminals?  And that number has also been steadily DECREASING since 14,916 in 2007?  And that Chicago has the most stringent gun laws and that gun homicides there are INCREASING?


Wow don't blow me away partner with the facts. Lets see where to start, with the background checks I suppose. Mr. Intellectual do you know that at a gun show a private gun owner can sell his guns and is not required by law to conduct a background check? That's right any 18 or older us citizen can buy a gun with no background check. Assault weapons totally been banned since the 1930's? Where are you getting your facts, last ban on assault weapons was Clinton administration. And it was repealed. Any citizen can legally buy practically any gun they'd like. Flamethrowers, machine guns, assault rifles, anything. And just so you know this low capacity magazine argument is stupid, I don't agree with it, so you're wasting letters by trying to "school" me

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## Archer

> Look, I only have another hour before the bg makes me run 3.5 miles with him, so I am allowed to play the win-lose game for another 40.


Fine, just remember "Don't start nuthin; wont be nuthin".

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## Francesco

> Wow, maybe you're not _my_ son at all, but @The XL's secret son.  Surrriously, that was a XL post if I ever saw one.


Thanks I'm pretty mad at him, now Dan40 is trying to show me up with his "superior" knowledge

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## Archer

Dude get your definition in order. You really don't want to get into what an assault weapon is or is not.

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## Guest

> Wow don't blow me away partner with the facts. Lets see where to start, with the background checks I suppose. Mr. Intellectual do you know that at a gun show a private gun owner can sell his guns and is not required by law to conduct a background check? That's right any 18 or older us citizen can buy a gun with no background check. Assault weapons totally been banned since the 1930's? Where are you getting your facts, last ban on assault weapons was Clinton administration. And it was repealed. Any citizen can legally buy practically any gun they'd like. Flamethrowers, machine guns, assault rifles, anything. And just so you know this low capacity magazine argument is stupid, I don't agree with it, so you're wasting letters by trying to "school" me


The only way I can buy a machine gun is if I have about a hundred k and am willing to make friends with some rough people.

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Archer (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> The only way I can buy a machine gun is if I have about a hundred k and am willing to make friends with some rough people.


Actually no, you can buy a machine gun 100% legally

----------


## Guest

> Dude get your definition in order. You really don't want to get into what an assault weapon is or is not.


Personally, I think an assault weapon is the one that the asshole who tried to steal my Valentino couture bag had...I felt assaulted!

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## Archer

> The only way I can buy a machine gun is if I have about a hundred k and am willing to make friends with some rough people.


Thank you dear.

----------


## Guest

> Actually no, you can buy a machine gun 100% legally


Among other things, federal law:
1. requires all machine guns, except antique firearms, not in the U.S. government's possession to be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF);
2.  *bars private individuals from transferring or acquiring machine guns  except those lawfully possessed and registered before May 19, 1986;*

3. requires anyone transferring or manufacturing machine guns to get prior ATF approval and register the firearms; 
4. with very limited exceptions, imposes a $200 excise tax whenever a machine gun is transferred;

5. bars interstate transport of machine guns without ATF approval;  and
6.  imposes harsh penalties for machine gun violations, including  imprisonment of up to 10 years, a fine of up to $250,000, or both for  possessing an unregistered machine gun.

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## Archer

> Actually no, you can buy a machine gun 100% legally


Dinero my friend; mucho dinero

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## Francesco

> Thank you dear.


any semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine and at least two of the following five items: a folding or telescopic stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel (a barrel that can accommodate a flash suppressor); or a grenade launcher." You can buy those. And a simple google search can show you, yes you can buy a machine gun, if you don't want to believe me then don't its not my problem

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## Francesco

> Dinero my friend; mucho dinero


Yes that doesn't make it illegal. Mira chamo yo puedo comprar todas las armos que queiro

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## Archer

> any semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine and at least two of the following five items: a folding or telescopic stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel (a barrel that can accommodate a flash suppressor); or a grenade launcher." You can buy those. And a simple google search can show you, yes you can buy a machine gun, if you don't want to believe me then don't its not my problem


A political definition.

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## Guest

> any semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine and at least two of the following five items: a folding or telescopic stock; a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; a bayonet mount; a flash suppressor or threaded barrel (a barrel that can accommodate a flash suppressor); or a grenade launcher." You can buy those. And a simple google search can show you, yes you can buy a machine gun, if you don't want to believe me then don't its not my problem


It isn't that I don't believe you can buy them.  You most certainly can buy a machine gun.  It's just against federal law.  You can also do a google search on mushrooms and buy them--not that I would know from personal experience, of course.

Naturally, the Bar Association would frown on attorneys engaging in illegal activities such as that.  I just know from research.

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## Francesco

Yes that was the political definition of an assault weapon, why are we even discussing this, the idiots on Capitol Hill can't even decide what an assault weapon is

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## Guest

> Yes that was the political definition of an assault weapon, why are we even discussing this, the idiots on Capitol Hill can't even decide what an assault weapon is


If someone assaults you with a weapon, it's an assault weapon.

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## Archer

> Yes that doesn't make it illegal. Mira chamo yo puedo comprar todas las armos que queiro


Actually it is illegal unless you pay. It is not like just anyone can get them legally. But Obummer will give them and more to terrorists and drug dealers.

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## Francesco

> It isn't that I don't believe you can buy them.  You most certainly can buy a machine gun.  It's just against federal law.  You can also do a google search on mushrooms and buy them--not that I would know from personal experience, of course.
> 
> Naturally, the Bar Association would frown on attorneys engaging in illegal activities such as that.  I just know from research.


As a side note, what law school did you go to? And back on track, federal law states that the possession of machine guns are highly regulated but not entirely illegal

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## Francesco

> If someone assaults you with a weapon, it's an assault weapon.


Well then that defines everything as an assault weapon, therefore there must be a ban in everything to prevent assault weapons

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## Guest

> As a side note, what law school did you go to? And back on track, federal law states that the possession of machine guns are highly regulated but not entirely illegal




If you had one from way back beyond you can leave it to your children with appropriate paperwork and not in most states, you cannot legally purchase one.

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## Guest

> Well then that defines everything as an assault weapon, therefore there must be a ban in everything to prevent assault weapons


Or empower people to learn to use them and be unafraid of them.  It's like martial arts...by the time you can kill someone with your body you've learned enough discipline not to.  We should be teaching discipline and respect and this will all work out in the end.   :Smile:

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## Francesco

> Or empower people to learn to use them and be unafraid of them.  It's like martial arts...by the time you can kill someone with your body you've learned enough discipline not to.  We should be teaching discipline and respect and this will all work out in the end.


Unfortunately here in America we don't have the brightest alumni so its like teaching a fly to stop entering your house. Besides if we just don't learn how to kill each other with our bodies we can be rest assured that we won't do it.

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## Francesco

So what happened to Dan40, again? He just never responded

----------


## Guest

> Unfortunately here in America we don't have the brightest alumni so its like teaching a fly to stop entering your house. Besides if we just don't learn how to kill each other with our bodies we can be rest assured that we won't do it.


Humans are apex predators.  You can't remove the instinct, only train the being in the way you wish him or her to go.

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## Gemini

> So what happened to Dan40, again? He just never responded


 @Francesco

I'd get used to it.  I recently stumbled upon him, and a similar pattern was revealed to me as well.  Although I do have to give him credit where it is due.  He knows when to quit fighting and withdraw.  He just does it too late is all.

----------



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## Francesco

> @Francesco
> 
> I'd get used to it.  I recently stumbled upon him, and a similar pattern was revealed to me as well.  Although I do have to give him credit where it is due.  He knows when to quit fighting and withdraw.  He just does it too late is all.


Thanks for the advice, I was hoping for a good wholesome debate but I guess that's not happening

----------


## usfan

> Yes, @Dan40 does this with great verve and spirit.  As I've said, I enjoy being called a bozo by him.
> I really don't care about "right" or "left".  Trina is a lefty, but I love and will defend Trina.  The Binks is a total bastard but I would defend him even if someone wanted to physically pummel me.
> It's just my way.


Your loyalties are more familial.. rather than ideological.  You have included some in your circle that you share a few ideological sympathies, yet you exclude some other that you might have just as much in common with.  It is your 'extended family', & you defend them like a mama grizzly.   :Big Grin: 




> Well then that defines everything as an assault weapon, therefore there must be a ban in everything to prevent assault weapons


Good plan.  Surely you see the irony in that.  Are we to ban pressure cookers?  I'm not a 'no regulation' kind of guy, but i'd like us to err on the side of individual liberties, rather than govt coddling.

----------


## Guest

> Thanks for the advice, I was hoping for a good wholesome debate but I guess that's not happening


No, but after I run and the Binks gets back from lunch you can watch me kick his ass in a debate.  Cuz...it's gonna happen.  @The XL and I are gonna have a talk about Rand.

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GrassrootsConservative (04-27-2013)

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## Archer

> Unfortunately here in America we don't have the brightest alumni so its like teaching a fly to stop entering your house. Besides if we just don't learn how to kill each other with our bodies we can be rest assured that we won't do it.


Damn I don't know weather to shake your hand or smack you upside the head. Yes we are a stupid country and humanity in general is stupid.

You are almost diametrically opposed to yourself. Well damn it I need to get used to two of us then.

----------


## Francesco

> No, but after I run and the Binks gets back from lunch you can watch me kick his ass in a debate.  Cuz...it's gonna happen.  @The XL and I are gonna have a talk about Rand.


Don't think I don't want a piece of the action

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## Guest

> Your loyalties are more familial.. rather than ideological.  You have included some in your circle that you share a few ideological sympathies, yet you exclude some other that you might have just as much in common with.  It is your 'extended family', & you defend them like a mama grizzly.


For the most part this is true.  I tend to hang with libertarians, but I have a soft spot for good people.

Curious though...who have I excluded that I have any ideological similarities with?

----------


## Herman

> He's awesome and full of win.  You wouldn't know because your dictionary has holes in it.  Speaking of holes, we're talking reparative therapy and @Herman's strap-ons over there.  Care to weigh in?


Please do not judge me and be understanding. I am not well endowed in that department about 4 inches fully erect on a tape measure and the ladies laughed at me until I bought a strap on @Rina_Dragonborn.

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## usfan

> @Francesco
> 
> I'd get used to it.  I recently stumbled upon him, and a similar pattern was revealed to me as well.  Although I do have to give him credit where it is due.  He knows when to quit fighting and withdraw.  He just does it too late is all.



People just need to learn to deal with grouchy old farts.. they will always be around, & some of them are quite young, too.   :Big Grin:   @Dan40 can dish it out, but he can take it, too.  What would be the fun of the forum if it was all, 'trina this', & 'trina that'?  Do we want an endless love fest of kumbaya, or cutting edge wit with occasional nuggets of truth?   :Fighting0074: 

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## Guest

> Don't think I don't want a piece of the action


No, you wouldn't ... this one's been a long time coming.

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## Guest

> People just need to learn to deal with grouchy old farts.. they will always be around, & some of them are quite young, too.    @Dan40 can dish it out, but he can take it, too.  What would be the fun of the forum if it was all, 'trina this', & 'trina that'?  Do we want an endless love fest of kumbaya, or cutting edge wit with occasional nuggets of truth?



It's not always a love fest.  XL and I often get into it.  We're pretty feisty.

----------


## usfan

> For the most part this is true.  I tend to hang with libertarians, but I have a soft spot for good people.
> Curious though...who have I excluded that I have any ideological similarities with?


How about @Dan40 ?  I bet if you got down to basics, you'd find more in common than you care to admit... at least as much as your other boy toys.    :Poke: 

 :Toothy10:

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## Guest

> How about @Dan40 ?  I bet if you got down to basics, you'd find more in common than you care to admit... at least as much as your other boy toys.



What is one thing that Dan40 and I have in common?  While I do love Dan40--no one is as insulting as Dan--we don't share any political beliefs and this is a politics forum.

Also...  ::sniffs:: I don't have "boy toys".  I have male compadres.

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GrassrootsConservative (04-27-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Dan40

> So what happened to Dan40, again? He just never responded


I have what is called A LIFE.  I don't live in Mommy's basement.  So I come and go as I please.  Only occasionally looking in on the idiot farm.

None of you are a debate challenge.  You present ideological idiocy, I destroy it with FACT.
I just hope to teach one of you about the real world, of which you are  completely unaware.

----------



----------


## The XL

> No, but after I run and the Binks gets back from lunch you can watch me kick his ass in a debate.  Cuz...it's gonna happen.  @The XL and I are gonna have a talk about Rand.


Have at it.

----------


## Dan40

> Yes, @Dan40 does this with great verve and spirit.  As I've said, I enjoy being called a bozo by him.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't care about "right" or "left".  Trina is a lefty, but I love and will defend Trina.  The Binks is a total bastard but I would defend him even if someone wanted to physically pummel me.
> 
> It's just my way.


Kindly cite anywhere that I called you a bozo.

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## Guest

> Have at it.


Oh, I will.

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## The XL

> I have what is called A LIFE.  I don't live in Mommy's basement.  So I come and go as I please.  Only occasionally looking in on the idiot farm.
> 
> None of you are a debate challenge.  You present ideological idiocy, I destroy it with FACT.
> I just hope to teach one of you about the real world, of which you are  completely unaware.


Lol.

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## Archer

> None of you are a debate challenge.  You present ideological idiocy, I destroy it with FACT.


Hey watch it or the next time I disagree with you we will not discuss it we will debate it. Don't make blanket insults dude.

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usfan (04-27-2013)

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## usfan

> Hey watch it or the next time I disagree with you we will not discuss it we will debate it. Don't make blanket insults dude.


Now what's the fun in that?  No blanket insults?  Shoot, more than half of the posts would be empty.  That's right up there in the 'generalizations' thread, or other broad brush topics.    :Icon Biggrin: 

If i can't say, 'all liberals are frightened mice afraid of guns', then what, i have to personalize it?  .. but maybe you just mean 'insults'.. other generalizations are ok?  

But regarding the back & forth with @Dan40 & trina, @The XL and @fransesco , i don't see any more from one side or the other.  If anything, the sheer numbers ganging up on dan should provide him more leeway in using insults.   :Big Grin: 

Maybe i just root for the underdog.. but i don't see him being any more rude or insulting than the others.  i don't follow all the threads, especially if they get heated.. i'm just not into the reality show side of the forums.   :Tongue20:

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## Dan40

> Wow don't blow me away partner with the facts. Lets see where to start, with the background checks I suppose. Mr. Intellectual do you know that at a gun show a private gun owner can sell his guns and is not required by law to conduct a background check? That's right any 18 or older us citizen can buy a gun with no background check. Assault weapons totally been banned since the 1930's? Where are you getting your facts, last ban on assault weapons was Clinton administration. And it was repealed. Any citizen can legally buy practically any gun they'd like. Flamethrowers, machine guns, assault rifles, anything. And just so you know this low capacity magazine argument is stupid, I don't agree with it, so you're wasting letters by trying to "school" me


Yes I know about gun shows.

No you don't know crap about assault weapons.  Where do I get my info, US Federal Law.  That's where.

Assault weapons, REAL assault weapons MUST have a full automatic capability to be an assault weapon.  They have been illegal for civilian purchase since the 30's.  What you have been BRAINWASHED into "thinking" [using the word in its broadest terms] is that semi-automatic weapons that LOOK like military assault weapons ARE assault weapons.  They are not.  The misnomers when referring to weapons are legion.  For instance the very famous model 1911 .45 caliber automatic,,,,,,,,,,IS NOT.  It is a semi automatic weapon.  Roy Rogers six shooter, IS a semi automatic weapon.
And obviously I am wasting time trying to school you since you know SO MUCH that is simply WRONG and refuse to learn.

NO no honest citizen can purchase ANYWHERE in the USA, or have shipped into the USA any, flamethrower, machine guns, assault weapons [MG's and assault weapons can be the same weapons, the easy distinction would be that assault weapons are man served and MG's are crew served, but even then, there are exceptions.]
A special Federal and most often STATE license must be issued for the purchase of any of these type weapons.  And they cannot be resold to anyone but another special license holder.  And gun dealers ARE NOT special license holders.  It is also ILLEGAL for ordinary citizens to have in their possession without a special license, ANY fully automatic weapon.

FACTS that you were/are unaware.  Your premise is built on a mountain of pure unadulterated bullshit and brainwashing.

Another for instance.  You can purchase a near perfect replica of a "Tommy Gun" but it is NOT a Tommy Gun which has full auto capability.  The replica is a semi-automatic weapon, just as a police special .38 revolver is a semi-automatic weapon.

If you want to debate me, try facts instead of brainwashed bullshit.

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Archer (04-27-2013)

----------


## Dan40

> Now what's the fun in that?  No blanket insults?  Shoot, more than half of the posts would be empty.  That's right up there in the 'generalizations' thread, or other broad brush topics.   
> 
> If i can't say, 'all liberals are frightened mice afraid of guns', then what, i have to personalize it?  .. but maybe you just mean 'insults'.. other generalizations are ok?  
> 
> But regarding the back & forth with @Dan40 & trina, @The XL and @fransesco , i don't see any more from one side or the other.  If anything, the sheer numbers ganging up on dan should provide him more leeway in using insults.  
> 
> Maybe i just root for the underdog.. but i don't see him being any more rude or insulting than the others.  i don't follow all the threads, especially if they get heated.. i'm just not into the reality show side of the forums.


Don't be concerned with anyone "Ganging up" on me.  They just demonstrate their ignorance of reality over and over.  I can take them all on with drawing a deep breath.  Stepping on ants is nothing.

----------


## The XL

> Well then that defines everything as an assault weapon, therefore there must be a ban in everything to prevent assault weapons


 @Francesco

Do you not think the 2nd Amendment is useful for self defense purposes?  What about for weak or old people?  

Look at Chicago and Detroit, two gun control areas with high gun violence.  Can you see that the criminals and gangs care not for those laws?  The laws aren't working.

Don't you think poorer people in ghettos would be better off if they had firearms?  Any time a gang started some shit, they'd have to worry about their own asses, instead of the poor innocent people being terrorized.

----------


## Francesco

> I have what is called A LIFE.  I don't live in Mommy's basement.  So I come and go as I please.  Only occasionally looking in on the idiot farm.
> 
> None of you are a debate challenge.  You present ideological idiocy, I destroy it with FACT.
> I just hope to teach one of you about the real world, of which you are  completely unaware.


Hahahah I'm laughing choking on irony. You destroy my fallacies with fact, why you sir are a cretin. Did you not read my response to your "facts" verify them if you'd like. Do your self a favor, stick to whatever you actually do in life and for your own merit, stay out of politics. Your ideas are feeble at best, considering a 14 year old is telling you this should tell you something

----------



----------


## Francesco

> Yes I know about gun shows.
> 
> No you don't know crap about assault weapons.  Where do I get my info, US Federal Law.  That's where.
> 
> Assault weapons, REAL assault weapons MUST have a full automatic capability to be an assault weapon.  They have been illegal for civilian purchase since the 30's.  What you have been BRAINWASHED into "thinking" [using the word in its broadest terms] is that semi-automatic weapons that LOOK like military assault weapons ARE assault weapons.  They are not.  The misnomers when referring to weapons are legion.  For instance the very famous model 1911 .45 caliber automatic,,,,,,,,,,IS NOT.  It is a semi automatic weapon.  Roy Rogers six shooter, IS a semi automatic weapon.
> And obviously I am wasting time trying to school you since you know SO MUCH that is simply WRONG and refuse to learn.
> 
> NO no honest citizen can purchase ANYWHERE in the USA, or have shipped into the USA any, flamethrower, machine guns, assault weapons [MG's and assault weapons can be the same weapons, the easy distinction would be that assault weapons are man served and MG's are crew served, but even then, there are exceptions.]
> A special Federal and most often STATE license must be issued for the purchase of any of these type weapons.  And they cannot be resold to anyone but another special license holder.  And gun dealers ARE NOT special license holders.  It is also ILLEGAL for ordinary citizens to have in their possession without a special license, ANY fully automatic weapon.
> ...


Again astounding! The definition of assault weapon I have provided is completely wrong even though that's what the federal government of the USA calls it. You can't buy flamethrowers, machine guns, yet go to Alabama or any other gun loving state and you'll see them. You've schooled me, thank you master

----------


## Francesco

> @Francesco
> 
> Do you not think the 2nd Amendment is useful for self defense purposes?  What about for weak or old people?  
> 
> Look at Chicago and Detroit, two gun control areas with high gun violence.  Can you see that the criminals and gangs care not for those laws?  The laws aren't working.
> 
> Don't you think poorer people in ghettos would be better off if they had firearms?  Any time a gang started some shit, they'd have to worry about their own asses, instead of the poor innocent people being terrorized.


You know why these gun bans don't work in Detroit, Chicago, or Camden (most violent place in USA) because these bans are in those areas only. That means the people living there can't get guns legally, but any gang member can hop on over to a city where guns are perfectly legal to sell, buy them, smuggle them over into the city and keep the violence going. If a gun ban has any chance of working it would have to be national not in a specific area

----------


## Guest

> Maybe i just root for the underdog.. but i don't see him being any more rude or insulting than the others.  i don't follow all the threads, especially if they get heated.. i'm just not into the reality show side of the forums.


Have I ever called anyone a name?

----------


## Archer

> Again astounding! The definition of assault weapon I have provided is completely wrong even though that's what the federal government of the USA calls it. You can't buy flamethrowers, machine guns, yet go to Alabama or any other gun loving state and you'll see them. You've schooled me, thank you master





> You know why these gun bans don't work in Detroit, Chicago, or Camden (most violent place in USA) because these bans are in those areas only. That means the people living there can't get guns legally, but any gang member can hop on over to a city where guns are perfectly legal to sell, buy them, smuggle them over into the city and keep the violence going. If a gun ban has any chance of working it would have to be national not in a specific area


The definition is completely arbitrary and made up. If these weapons are not selective fire or full auto they are not mil-spec. They are a class that is properly referred to as a sporting rifle. In general they have lower accuracy and have much less power than a 100 year old round. Looks are the only issue. 

And gun bans do not work in Mexico either. Can you propose a constitutional way to get the guns from the criminals?

----------


## Guest

> You know why these gun bans don't work in Detroit, Chicago, or Camden (most violent place in USA) because these bans are in those areas only. That means the people living there can't get guns legally, but any gang member can hop on over to a city where guns are perfectly legal to sell, buy them, smuggle them over into the city and keep the violence going. If a gun ban has any chance of working it would have to be national not in a specific area


How do you explain illegal drugs then?  It's the same people trafficking both, and drugs are banned in every state.

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Archer (04-27-2013)

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## Dan40

> Again astounding! The definition of assault weapon I have provided is completely wrong even though that's what the federal government of the USA calls it. You can't buy flamethrowers, machine guns, yet go to Alabama or any other gun loving state and you'll see them. You've schooled me, thank you master


Your brainwashing is complete and total.  And you don't know jack about guns.  Maybe squirt guns, your own, but you know nothing about real guns and you claim expertise that is laughingly obvious you'll never have.

And I've lived in Texas and Alabama.  You cannot buy an automatic weapon in the USA.  Don't take TV shows as a teaching medium.

----------


## usfan

> Don't be concerned with anyone "Ganging up" on me.  They just demonstrate their ignorance of reality over and over.  I can take them all on with drawing a deep breath.  Stepping on ants is nothing.


Oh, i'm not worried.  like i said, you can dish it out AND you can take it.




> Have I ever called anyone a name?


Of course not!  Rina is always charming & kind hearted.. & even when you insult someone, they have this urge to say 'thank you'.   :Big Grin: 

Your insults are more along these lines:

He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know.
"He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends."
A modest little person, with much to be modest about.
He has Van Gogh's ear for music
She had lost the art of conversation, but not, unfortunately, the power of speech.


Sarcasm: the ability to insult idiots without them realizing it.

----------



----------


## Francesco

> The definition is completely arbitrary and made up. If these weapons are not selective fire or full auto they are not mil-spec. They are a class that is properly referred to as a sporting rifle. In general they have lower accuracy and have much less power than a 100 year old round. Looks are the only issue. 
> 
> And gun bans do not work in Mexico either. Can you propose a constitutional way to get the guns from the criminals?


It's not arbitrary or made up, rest assured

----------


## Francesco

> Your brainwashing is complete and total.  And you don't know jack about guns.  Maybe squirt guns, your own, but you know nothing about real guns and you claim expertise that is laughingly obvious you'll never have.
> 
> And I've lived in Texas and Alabama.  You cannot buy an automatic weapon in the USA.  Don't take TV shows as a teaching medium.


You know something, I'm glad I don't know about guns they repulse me. Any tool designed specifically for the killing of our fellow species is something I don't want to be a part of. Fine be what would be called in Italian testa dura, don't believe me honestly if you want to deny reality then be my guess. You'll just be another one of the millions of Americans who willfully accept the big red white and blue dildo being rammed up their colons everyday believing what the media tells you, accepting lower pays, end of overtime, disappearing pensions the moment you go to collect them. Be that way it's your choice. And Dan its called a class III permit, means you can buy automatic weapons, jus' so you know

----------


## Francesco

> How do you explain illegal drugs then?  It's the same people trafficking both, and drugs are banned in every state.


Drugs are different than guns, drugs are legal in Portugal and they have no problem, guns are legal here but we kind of have a major problem

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## Archer

> It's not arbitrary or made up, rest assured


Actually it is and it is all about cosmetics.

^^Assault weapon^^

^^Not assault weapon but accepts 30-50 round clips of the same caliber as the assault weapon.^^

vvAnd what the hell is this?vv


Made up 100%

I am correct and you are not. End of story. I have the proof and you have guesses and conjecture.

Fail and don't make me treat you like I used to treat Reiver. He was my bitch plenty of times.

----------


## Dan40

> Again astounding! The definition of assault weapon I have provided is completely wrong even though that's what the federal government of the USA calls it. You can't buy flamethrowers, machine guns, yet go to Alabama or any other gun loving state and you'll see them. You've schooled me, thank you master


Your brainwashing is complete and total.  And you don't know jack about guns.  Maybe squirt guns, your own, but you know nothing about real guns and you claim expertise that is laughingly obvious you'll never have.

The assault weapons you talk about is a POLITICAL TERM.  The ban was not on actual assault weapons but on weapons that looked like assault weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...lt_Weapons_Ban

Actual machine guns/assault weapons were banned by the National Firearms act of 1934.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

----------


## Guest

> Drugs are different than guns, drugs are legal in Portugal and they have no problem, guns are legal here but we kind of have a major problem


Guns are legal in Switzerland without a problem, too.  They are also legal in the US and when we all have less than a 1 percent chance of being shot, I'm not sure we don't have a problem the media didn't create.  More people smoke pot than own guns.

EDIT: shouldn't show someone to dance and post at the same time.

----------


## Francesco

It is a political term, I've never trusted any politician so yeah the term is pretty idiotic. The National Firearms Act of 1934 didn't make automatic guns illegal, it strictly regulates them.

----------


## Francesco

> Guns are legal in Switzerland without a problem, too.  They are also legal in the US and when we all have less than a 1 percent chance of being shot, I'm not sure we don't have a problem the media didn't create.  More people smoke pot than own guns.
> 
> EDIT: shouldn't show someone to dance and post at the same time.


I agree, boy those media companies sure know how to poke our buttons don't they? I wonder who owns them? Wait its the rich man, or as they prefer, job creators. Could it be that this entire discussion is pointless and really just for the business interests if these businessmen. Hey when the Bush administration made airport security, he took care of the tobacco companies

----------



----------


## Dan40

> You know something, I'm glad I don't know about guns they repulse me. Any tool designed specifically for the killing of our fellow species is something I don't want to be a part of. Fine be what would be called in Italian testa dura, don't believe me honestly if you want to deny reality then be my guess. You'll just be another one of the millions of Americans who willfully accept the big red white and blue dildo being rammed up their colons everyday believing what the media tells you, accepting lower pays, end of overtime, disappearing pensions the moment you go to collect them. Be that way it's your choice. And Dan its called a class III permit, means you can buy automatic weapons, jus' so you know


That's fine that you are repulsed by guns.  That's your choice.  Its fine that you don't know anything about guns.  Again that's your choice and not mine to judge in any way.

But I do judge when you post like you DO know something about guns when you do not.  ONLY a total fool repeats propaganda.

Learn facts, not bullshit.  You will HAVE to make thousands of decisions in your life.  Some/many will effect others.  If you base your decisions on bullshit propaganda that you have not CLEARLY verified to be right or wrong, your chances of making a correct decision are nearly nil.

----------


## Guest

> I agree, boy those media companies sure know how to poke our buttons don't they? I wonder who owns them? Wait its the rich man, or as they prefer, job creators. Could it be that this entire discussion is pointless and really just for the business interests if these businessmen. Hey when the Bush administration made airport security, he took care of the tobacco companies


The elite own them and don't want us to have guns, either.  You are a pacifist and I'm non-violent and non-aggressive.  I don't want to hurt people, I want to help people.

But every totalitarian dictatorship started with cries of "for the greater good".  They showed horrifying pictures of people and blamed other people for them in a dialectic that broke the populace and made it weaker and more able to be controlled.

Less than a percent of all Americans die from gun violence.  Even if you count suicide--which I don't because having been there at that point once myself, if there weren't a gun I would have used Drano--I can tell you where there's a will, there's a way.

Non-suicide deaths are less than 12, 000 people out of 360 million, counting illegals.  That's less than a percent.  .0083 to be exact.

The media is the tool of the government which wants to splinter us in a partisan battle so we don't look at what they are doing.  

How Obama can stand there with the Sandy Hook families behind him when his drones have sent more Pakistani and Afghan kids to their deaths is beyond me!  What a fucking pos hypocrite that murdering bastard is.

If they want to take our guns and implement gun control maybe they should set the example of nonviolence for all of us.

----------

Archer (04-27-2013),usfan (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> That's fine that you are repulsed by guns.  That's your choice.  Its fine that you don't know anything about guns.  Again that's your choice and not mine to judge in any way.
> 
> But I do judge when you post like you DO know something about guns when you do not.  ONLY a total fool repeats propaganda.
> 
> Learn facts, not bullshit.  You will HAVE to make thousands of decisions in your life.  Some/many will effect others.  If you base your decisions on bullshit propaganda that you have not CLEARLY verified to be right or wrong, your chances of making a correct decision are nearly nil.


He's fourteen and developing who he will become some day.  You're old enough to have voted for Clinton and remember Perot and you still believe the assholes in the media.

Cut the kid some slack.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Archer

> He's fourteen and developing who he will become some day.  You're old enough to have voted for Clinton and remember Perot and you still believe the assholes in the media.
> 
> Cut the kid some slack.


I voted for Perot damnit! You saying something?

----------


## Guest

> I voted for Perot damnit! You saying something?


Uhhhh, that you're both old enough to have seen some shit and should know that he's formulating his own thoughts at the moment.  We can present our views but we can't hammer at him and expect that he'll accept it.

Youth absorb everything.  It is their nature.  However, while they are always learning, they don't always learn the lesson we are trying to teach them.  Dan should know this by now.

----------


## Archer

> Uhhhh, that you're both old enough to have seen some shit and should know that he's formulating his own thoughts at the moment.  We can present our views but we can't hammer at him and expect that he'll accept it.
> 
> Youth absorb everything.  It is their nature.  However, while they are always learning, they don't always learn the lesson we are trying to teach them.  Dan should know this by now.


Yup present the facts and accept what others present and if the truth can't get past the programming brand them the enemy and go on the offensive.

I really don't have an issue with the kid. Kind of like his thought process even though I disagree with him on the guns.

----------



----------


## The XL

> He's fourteen and developing who he will become some day.  You're old enough to have voted for Clinton and remember Perot and you still believe the assholes in the media.
> 
> Cut the kid some slack.


This.

----------


## The XL

> You know why these gun bans don't work in Detroit, Chicago, or Camden (most violent place in USA) because these bans are in those areas only. That means the people living there can't get guns legally, but any gang member can hop on over to a city where guns are perfectly legal to sell, buy them, smuggle them over into the city and keep the violence going. If a gun ban has any chance of working it would have to be national not in a specific area


You're right, this is true.

However, it's a necessary evil.  People have a right to defend themselves, and guns are the best way to do so, especially if you're a woman, sick, elderly, weak, or disabled in any way.

Why should the good people be punished for the small majority who use guns nefariously?

----------


## Archer

> This.


When the kid goes on the attack he is asking for no quarter. The debate is good for him. Makes him think fast and learn to research.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I have what is called A LIFE.  I don't live in Mommy's basement.  So I come and go as I please.  Only occasionally looking in on the idiot farm.
> 
> None of you are a debate challenge.  You present ideological idiocy, I destroy it with FACT.
> I just hope to teach one of you about the real world, of which you are  completely unaware.


You have the most unrealistic view of reality I've ever seen. It's really quite amazing.

----------



----------


## Guest

> You're right, this is true.
> 
> However, it's a necessary evil.  People have a right to defend themselves, and guns are the best way to do so, especially if you're a woman, sick, elderly, weak, or disabled in any way.
> 
> Why should the good people be punished for the small majority who use guns nefariously?


It's not really true.  We have a national ban on drugs and I can walk a single block and get any drug I want.  Same with guns.

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## The XL

> It's not really true.  We have a national ban on drugs and I can walk a single block and get any drug I want.  Same with guns.


He means that a national ban would limit arms.  If guns were banned and somehow confiscated in America and Mexico, it would reduce the number of guns.  A state ban does nothing.  

Drugs are freely available because they can be imported from Mexico, grown, or even made at home.

----------


## Guest

> He means that a national ban would limit arms.  If guns were banned and somehow confiscated in America and Mexico, it would reduce the number of guns.  A state ban does nothing.  
> 
> Drugs are freely available because they can be imported from Mexico, grown, or even made at home.


And now with 3d printers we can all make them, too.  Commerce cannot be stopped.

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## Francesco

Don't cut me any slack. Its for my , I see why we need guns I'm not attacking anyone and im trying to.be more open minded

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Archer (04-27-2013),The XL (04-27-2013)

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## The XL

> And now with 3d printers we can all make them, too.  Commerce cannot be stopped.


Good point.

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## Guest

> Don't cut me any slack. Its for my , I see why we need guns I'm not attacking anyone and im trying to.be more open minded


It's in my nature.  A Native American even told me that the mother grizzly is my spirit animal.  When I like you I'm to the mattress for you (<=street talk).

That said, I'm proud of you that you're in the fray and making an argument.

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## Francesco

> It's in my nature.  A Native American even told me that the mother grizzly is my spirit animal.  When I like you I'm to the mattress for you (<=street talk).
> 
> That said, I'm proud of you that you're in the fray and making an argument.


Thank you I honestly appreciate it

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> Thank you I honestly appreciate it


Not that you must evolve like me, or XL, or Trina, etc but, when I was your age was a pacifist hippie, and then I became a non-violent tribalist hippie.  There's a difference, subtle, but it's there.  I like anyone that wants the world to be peaceful and to see the downtrodden lifted up.

We just have a different way of thinking how it can be accomplished, is all.

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## Archer

> Don't cut me any slack. Its for my , I see why we need guns I'm not attacking anyone and im trying to.be more open minded


I won't but my attacks (responses) differ from person to person. You are on my good side.

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----------


## Francesco

> Not that you must evolve like me, or XL, or Trina, etc but, when I was your age was a pacifist hippie, and then I became a non-violent tribalist hippie.  There's a difference, subtle, but it's there.  I like anyone that wants the world to be peaceful and to see the downtrodden lifted up.
> 
> We just have a different way of thinking how it can be accomplished,  all.


I am no pacifist, as george orwell said during , the pacifist is objectively.pro . I just feel that unnecessary violence would be nice if.it were to end.

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## Guest

> I won't but my attacks (responses) differ from person to person. You are on my good side.


I like him.  He's a pleasant mix of polite and feisty.   :Smile:   As opposed to some who are deranged and crabby.   :Big Grin:

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## Archer

> I like him.  He's a pleasant mix of polite and feisty.    As opposed to some who are deranged and crabby.


Yes I am a crabby fart but I am pleasant in a rough cut - matter of fact, I will make people who screw with me my bitch, sort of way.

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## Francesco

> I like him.  He's a pleasant mix of polite and feisty.    As opposed to some who are deranged and crabby.


That describes me perfectly! (not to sound arrogant

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> That describes me perfectly! (not to sound arrogant


Ooooh, homeboy brought the second season of Ninjago!  Woooooooohoo!

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## Francesco

> Ooooh, homeboy brought the second season of Ninjago!  Woooooooohoo!


What haha, sorry I wasnt your average kid, more like a science channel fan

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## Guest

> What haha, sorry I wasnt your average kid, more like a science channel fan


Sorry, my bg brought the Ninjago.  I like science and history channel, too.

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## The XL

Seeing a 14 year old spend their whole Saturday on a political forum is impressive.

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## Archer

> Seeing a 14 year old spend their whole Saturday on a political forum is impressive.


Educational.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> Seeing a 14 year old spend their whole Saturday on a political forum is impressive.


I didn't spend my whole Saturday, I did other stuff like some community service, but none of the less thank you

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> I didn't spend my whole Saturday, I did other stuff like some community service, but none of the less thank you


And that is likewise impressive, my young friend.

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The XL (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> And that is likewise impressive, my young friend.


Why thank you

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## Guest

Other than my 45 minute run, I spent my Saturday writing motions, chatting on here, and drinking limeade.  What a fun fucking day!

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## Francesco

Well community service was a drag. Nothing says fun like waking up at 8 o clock on a Saturday to go coach youth soccer! Then got back went on here for a bit, so my day was semi productive

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## Guest

> Well community service was a drag. Nothing says fun like waking up at 8 o clock on a Saturday to go coach youth soccer! Then got back went on here for a bit, so my day was semi productive


Well, my day was productive.  There are at least three people who will breathe a sigh of relief in about 2 weeks because I worked today.  I also had a client tell me that I need to wear Armani.  I think she's saying I need to improve my style of work garb.

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## Francesco

You should yell at her next time she tells you to wear Armani, or Gucci, or any other brand that smears their feces logo everywhere

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## Guest

> You should yell at her next time she tells you to wear Armani, or Gucci, or any other brand that smears their feces logo everywhere


You know, I can't remember the last time I yelled.  It seemed I yelled all the time in Detroit.  I'm fairly placid these days.  I can be cold, bitchy, etc but I haven't lost my shit in a while.

I'd like to think I'm becoming more Zen, but really it's probably just me being calculating.

So you're a democratic socialist like Trina, eh?  (shut up everyone)

What draws you to it?

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## Francesco

I'm a democratic socialist, who told you this? And what draws me to it is the ugliness of capitalism and superficial beauty of communism. Capitalism is not a very good system, sure it generates more money but for who? A select few really, the rest are screwed going on dreaming about the American dream. Communism is nice but you'd have to eradicate all forms of monetary devices in order for it to even possibly work, then there is the greed factor. So I pick socialism kind of a bridge, and if you have a democracy there isn't really room for too much corruption. All of these systems could work if it weren't for corruption, I just don't trust corporations

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Guest

> I'm a democratic socialist, who told you this? And what draws me to it is the ugliness of capitalism and superficial beauty of communism. Capitalism is not a very good system, sure it generates more money but for who? A select few really, the rest are screwed going on dreaming about the American dream. Communism is nice but you'd have to eradicate all forms of monetary devices in order for it to even possibly work, then there is the greed factor. So I pick socialism kind of a bridge, and if you have a democracy there isn't really room for too much corruption. All of these systems could work if it weren't for corruption, I just don't trust corporations


I'm a voluntaryist.  http://www.lysanderspooner.org/

Not to hit you with everything at once, but I believe that large corporations are the byproduct of crony capitalism (propped up by government) and without the state using force to promote these large corporations you'd see more middle sized and mom and pops.

I'm an individualist and a contrarian...so I can be pretty much a naysayer about everything.  You haven't seen that about me yet.

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Francesco (04-27-2013)

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## Francesco

> I'm a voluntaryist.  http://www.lysanderspooner.org/
> 
> Not to hit you with everything at once, but I believe that large corporations are the byproduct of crony capitalism (propped up by government) and without the state using force to promote these large corporations you'd see more middle sized and mom and pops.
> 
> I'm an individualist and a contrarian...so I can be pretty much a naysayer about everything.  You haven't seen that about me yet.


You're right I haven't. But again every major problem we've had as a nation, is a direct result of these corporations. It's the upper 1% who rule, forget about the politicians, the politicians are there to give you the illusion of freedom. That was a bit radical, sorry

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----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I'm a democratic socialist, who told you this? And what draws me to it is the ugliness of capitalism and superficial beauty of communism. Capitalism is not a very good system, sure it generates more money but for who? A select few really, the rest are screwed going on dreaming about the American dream. Communism is nice but you'd have to eradicate all forms of monetary devices in order for it to even possibly work, then there is the greed factor. So I pick socialism kind of a bridge, and if you have a democracy there isn't really room for too much corruption. All of these systems could work if it weren't for corruption, I just don't trust corporations


Just to clarify, by "democratic socialism" you are referring to this democratic socialism, right?

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## Francesco

> Just to clarify, by "democratic socialism" you are referring to this democratic socialism, right?


Yes I am

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-27-2013)

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## Maximatic

> You're right I haven't. But again every major problem we've had as a nation, is a direct result of these corporations. It's the upper 1% who rule, forget about the politicians, the politicians are there to give you the illusion of freedom. That was a bit radical, sorry


It's not that far fetched. Someone with a good deal of money can pay politicians to pass laws in the favor of the guy with a good deal of money, right?

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## Francesco

> It's not that far fetched. Someone with a good deal of money can pay politicians to pass laws in the favor of the guy with a good deal of money, right?


It really isn't I know, thank you

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Yes I am


Excellent. I'm not opposed to democratic socialism, but my own preferred variant is libertarian/voluntary socialism, with social democracy as a transitional state.

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## Francesco

> Excellent. I'm not opposed to democratic socialism, but my own preferred variant is libertarian/voluntary socialism, with social democracy as a transitional state.


Good then we're on good terms  :Smile:

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## Archer

I am an American whateverworksbestist.

I would be communist if it meant we executed those who refused to contribute even though they had no legitimate reason not to.
I am all for free market rule as long as we eliminate the government from everything and keep the military for defense only.
I am a socialist when it comes to utilities and medicine. They should be free! Medicine should be limited though. Smoke and get cancer you just die, get fat from being a piggy you get no meds or surgery. What? A drunk driving accident. We only help those who were not drinking and execute the drunk on the spot.

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## usfan

> I'm a democratic socialist, who told you this? And what draws me to it is the ugliness of capitalism and superficial beauty of communism. Capitalism is not a very good system, sure it generates more money but for who? A select few really, the rest are screwed going on dreaming about the American dream. Communism is nice but you'd have to eradicate all forms of monetary devices in order for it to even possibly work, then there is the greed factor. So I pick socialism kind of a bridge, and if you have a democracy there isn't really room for too much corruption. All of these systems could work if it weren't for corruption, I just don't trust corporations





> You're right I haven't. But again every major problem we've had as a nation, is a direct result of these corporations. It's the upper 1% who rule, forget about the politicians, the politicians are there to give you the illusion of freedom. That was a bit radical, sorry


You're just young.  In a few years, if you keep your  mind functional, you'll evolve.  You may think you won't, but you will.  Nothing is static.  If your mind doesn't grow, you are as good as dead, anyway.  I"m sure you've heard the famous churchill quote:

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."  ~Winston Churchill

I worry when i hear about real conservative young people.. they are rare, & most seem to lean democratic.  It is more common for them to be very empathetic, & desire social justice & dream of a utopian paradise where we all live together in peace & harmony.  But a few years or decades are a different school.. they teach you more about human nature than any university.  Once you are on your own, away from the protective bubble of your parents, stark reality will stare you in the face.  It shows no mercy, & is indifferent to your kind & gentle nature.  I hope you are smart & lucky, & don't get into destructive behavior, but work hard, & find good relationships.  There are enough problems in life without bringing them on yourself.

I guess this has turned into a 'grandfatherly advice' post, when i intended to rebut your position about capitalism & rant about the evils of collectivism.  Sorry if this seems patronizing to you.. that is not my intent.  Maybe another post we can get into the meat of the ideology & draw swords.
 :Fighting0074:

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JohnAdams (04-28-2013)

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## JohnAdams

> Uhhhh, that you're both old enough to have seen some shit and should know that he's formulating his own thoughts at the moment.  We can present our views but we can't hammer at him and expect that he'll accept it.
> 
> Youth absorb everything.  It is their nature.  However, while they are always learning, they don't always learn the lesson we are trying to teach them.  Dan should know this by now.


 As for "cut the kid some slack"  If he/she is fourteen and feels old enough to post here, he/she is old enough to get called out on the b.s. and hopefully learn something about parroting leftist propaganda some school teacher's probably told them. 

B:One hopes this kid will like many kids do, someday grow up and realize the evils of socialism for what they are, and like many kids as they grow up, embrace the freedom of a Constitutional republic or as many like to erroneously call our system "democracy".

----------


## Guest

> As for "cut the kid some slack"  If he/she is fourteen and feels old enough to post here, he/she is old enough to get called out on the b.s. and hopefully learn something about parroting leftist propaganda some school teacher's probably told them.


He hasn't parroted anything and if you read his posts all the way through, he's open to dialogue.




> B:One hopes this kid will like many kids do, someday grow up and realize the evils of socialism for what they are, and like many kids as they grow up, embrace the freedom of a Constitutional republic or as many like to erroneously call our system "democracy".


I grew up in socialism and saw its evils and I live now under corporatism and see how evil that is, too.  Because he has seen what happens when government force assists businesses he doesn't know what a free market looks like--most of you have never seen it, either.  It hasn't existed in our lifetimes.  Right now, to him, that feels like capitalism...and it's not.

Because he's never felt socialism first hand--I have, most of you haven't...he doesn't know what that's like, either.

We all just theorize what it _could_ be like.  He's fourteen and seeing all that's wrong.  He sees corporations offshore their money, while also paying foreign workers literally pennies per hour to work.  From his vantage that looks shady.  He's right.  What he doesn't have is all the knowledge of economics to understand how to fix it.

----------


## Francesco

> You're just young.  In a few years, if you keep your  mind functional, you'll evolve.  You may think you won't, but you will.  Nothing is static.  If your mind doesn't grow, you are as good as dead, anyway.  I"m sure you've heard the famous churchill quote:
> 
> "Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."  ~Winston Churchill
> 
> I worry when i hear about real conservative young people.. they are rare, & most seem to lean democratic.  It is more common for them to be very empathetic, & desire social justice & dream of a utopian paradise where we all live together in peace & harmony.  But a few years or decades are a different school.. they teach you more about human nature than any university.  Once you are on your own, away from the protective bubble of your parents, stark reality will stare you in the face.  It shows no mercy, & is indifferent to your kind & gentle nature.  I hope you are smart & lucky, & don't get into destructive behavior, but work hard, & find good relationships.  There are enough problems in life without bringing them on yourself.
> 
> I guess this has turned into a 'grandfatherly advice' post, when i intended to rebut your position about capitalism & rant about the evils of collectivism.  Sorry if this seems patronizing to you.. that is not my intent.  Maybe another post we can get into the meat of the ideology & draw swords.


Oh you don't need to teach me about the dangers of collectivism, if you've read Brave New World by Aldous Huxely you would know, that being said Aldous Huxely was a socialist and shows there is a fine line between the two

----------



----------


## Francesco

> He hasn't parroted anything and if you read his posts all the way through, he's open to dialogue.
> 
> 
> 
> I grew up in socialism and saw its evils and I live now under corporatism and see how evil that is, too.  Because he has seen what happens when government force assists businesses he doesn't know what a free market looks like--most of you have never seen it, either.  It hasn't existed in our lifetimes.  Right now, to him, that feels like capitalism...and it's not.
> 
> Because he's never felt socialism first hand--I have, most of you haven't...he doesn't know what that's like, either.
> 
> We all just theorize what it _could_ be like.  He's fourteen and seeing all that's wrong.  He sees corporations offshore their money, while also paying foreign workers literally pennies per hour to work.  From his vantage that looks shady.  He's right.  What he doesn't have is all the knowledge of economics to understand how to fix it.


You're right I haven't. No one has seen true capitalism since the late 19th century, but in reality it made no difference. A select few still got rich, extremely rich (mr Rockefeller) while the majority were still poor. I don't know how to fix it, but I will eventually, I'm taking all of the business and economics courses I can

----------


## Guest

As a child I lived in a wholly socialist country.  It was boring.  That's what I remember most about it.

----------


## Francesco

> As a child I lived in a wholly socialist country.  It was boring.  That's what I remember most about it.


What country did you live in?

----------


## Guest

> You're right I haven't. No one has seen true capitalism since the late 19th century, but in reality it made no difference. A select few still got rich, extremely rich (mr Rockefeller) while the majority were still poor. I don't know how to fix it, but I will eventually, I'm taking all of the business and economics courses I can


Poor then was very different than poor now, because the US still had an agrarian bent to it--growing your own food wasn't regulated as it is now.  People had backyard pigs, they hunted, had tiny gardens--even the poor.  The cost of living was less, doctors also worked on barter.  Churches were more active.

It is much harder to be poor now.

----------


## Guest

> What country did you live in?


Poland, though my mother was a Soviet/Russian.

----------


## Francesco

I see, the satellite state of the Soviet Union

----------


## Guest

> I see, the satellite state of the Soviet Union


One of them, yes.

----------


## Francesco

That's interesting. Most of my family was remnants of the Italian Fascist Party, so I heard a lot of political discussions

----------


## Guest

> That's interesting. Most of my family was remnants of the Italian Fascist Party, so I heard a lot of political discussions


I was too young to understand much more about it other than waiting with my mother or grandmother in long lines, always having to be quiet, never having enough at the store of what we needed, etc.

It was just very boring.

----------


## Francesco

> I was too young to understand much more about it other than waiting with my mother or grandmother in long lines, always having to be quiet, never having enough at the store of what we needed, etc.
> 
> It was just very boring.


I could imagine, really all I could remember from those discussions was someone yelling out "Viva el Duce!" And then it would get really quiet. But still I would hate to live in a country like that.

----------


## usfan

Most people who grow up or are closely associated with statist oppression 'get' america.. they see the contrast, & want freedom.  My family has been here since the 1600's, from both sides.  But i still 'get' it, too.  I don't want it to end, for my children & grandchildren.  That is why i am very upset at the direction the nation has been heading for decades.  It is moving away from freedom, & toward statist oppression.  But we can repent & turn back from our wicked ways!  We can have a 'revival' of freedom.. we've done it before.

_It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth._

----------


## usfan

> I am an American whateverworksbestist.
> 
> I would be communist if it meant we executed those who refused to contribute even though they had no legitimate reason not to.
> I am all for free market rule as long as we eliminate the government from everything and keep the military for defense only.
> I am a socialist when it comes to utilities and medicine. They should be free! Medicine should be limited though. Smoke and get cancer you just die, get fat from being a piggy you get no meds or surgery. What? A drunk driving accident. We only help those who were not drinking and execute the drunk on the spot.


I'm a freedom fighter & an american idealist.  The ideals are the basis for our strength, like sampson's hair.  If we compromise our ideals, we lose our strength.  I see collectivism as a governmental ideal as a colossal failure.  I don't mind implementing some collectivism.. for military defense, infrastructure, etc, but it should be the people' choice.. 

I don't see anything other than a fairly regulated free market working.  Whenever the govt tries to meddle with the economy, it gets worse.  They need to keep their grubby fingers out of our economy.  Give is fair regulations for business, & a stable currency.  Otherwise, leave us alone.

No change with medical, either.  Govt already favors special interest, & gives a monopoly on medicine & practice.  They should deregulate it.. let alternative medicines compete, & take govt out of this commodity.  Why should govt provide healthcare, but not housing, food, water, or air?

----------


## Guest

This conversation is one of the greatest in HBO history and exemplifies the difference between myself and you, @usfan.  You are Adams and I am Jefferson

----------


## Dan40

> You're right I haven't. But again every major problem we've had as a nation, is a direct result of these corporations. It's the upper 1% who rule, forget about the politicians, the politicians are there to give you the illusion of freedom. That was a bit radical, sorry


That is pure unadulterated immature nonsense.  A plebe parrotting bullshit that some OWS/Socialist/Communist/loser has told this immature child.
Do politicians make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
Do corporations make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
Do schoolteachers make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
Do Baptist Ministers make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
Do Priests make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
Do immature little children make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.

To stupidly blame all on corporations, is to expose the immeasurable depth of your ignorance.

----------


## JohnAdams

> This conversation is one of the greatest in HBO history and exemplifies the difference between myself and you, @usfan.  You are Adams and I am Jefferson


No I am Adams, and Jefferson was a horses ass secretary who was lucky to get appointed to draft the declaration of independence by Mr. Franklin and myself. 




However in all fairness it needs pointing out that Jefferson, much like myself, would have little use for, and even less to do with, the Democrat party of today.

Who do not, contrary to what some libs would have us all think, reflect what Jefferson believed in anymore than Adolph Hitler and gang did.

A problem the DNC has had since oh about Kennedy.  :Wink:

----------


## Guest

Who said that Jefferson would be a Democrat?  He was reincarnated in Ron Paul.

----------


## Archer

> I'm a freedom fighter & an american idealist.  The ideals are the basis for our strength, like sampson's hair.  If we compromise our ideals, we lose our strength.  I see collectivism as a governmental ideal as a colossal failure.  I don't mind implementing some collectivism.. for military defense, infrastructure, etc, but it should be the people' choice.. 
> 
> I don't see anything other than a fairly regulated free market working.  Whenever the govt tries to meddle with the economy, it gets worse.  They need to keep their grubby fingers out of our economy.  Give is fair regulations for business, & a stable currency.  Otherwise, leave us alone.
> 
> No change with medical, either.  Govt already favors special interest, & gives a monopoly on medicine & practice.  They should deregulate it.. let alternative medicines compete, & take govt out of this commodity.  Why should govt provide healthcare, but not housing, food, water, or air?


Do note:

I would be communist if it meant we executed those who refused to contribute even though they had no legitimate reason not to.
*Meaning: No welfare for those who are sluggards
*
I am all for free market rule as long as we eliminate the government from everything and keep the military for defense only.
*Meaning: No welfare for those who are sluggards, no medicaid for anyone, no medicare for anyone, no unemployment for anyone, no social security for anyone...
*
I am a socialist when it comes to utilities and medicine. They should be free! Medicine should be limited though. Smoke and get cancer you just die, get fat from being a piggy you get no meds or surgery. What? A drunk driving accident. We only help those who were not drinking and execute the drunk on the spot.
*Meaning: The government is no responsible for your poor choices.

*Look at what mark controlled really is. No government control or business regulation. I am all for that and we could have medical coverage for all at little cost (less than we currently pay for medicare and medicaid) if we stopped paying for peoples bad choices. Stopped paying millions for children that will never live or contribute (born with a terminal condition that will never allow them to flourish or even live on their own. People who will die at a young age...

You are damn right I am draconian. And when a person is 90yo why the hell are we keeping them on life support. Why are we paying for drug rehab. Lock them up on a farm with some tools and seeds.

----------


## Dan40

> Who said that Jefferson would be a Democrat?  He was reincarnated in Ron Paul.


Jefferson, a doer with numerous accomplishments.

Ron Paul a useless bloviator that accomplished NOTHING in his lifetime.  He championed many good ideas and some bad and/or ridiculous ideas.  But NEVER accomplish ANYTHING that he spoke about.  A lifelong loser.

The best idea in the world, that is stillborn, equals NOTHING.  Dr. Paul was the Planned Parenthood of his ideas.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> No I am Adams, and Jefferson was a horses ass secretary who was lucky to get appointed to draft the declaration of independence by Mr. Franklin and myself. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However in all fairness it needs pointing out that Jefferson, much like myself, would have little use for, and even less to do with, the Democrat party of today.
> 
> Who do not, contrary to what some libs would have us all think, reflect what Jefferson believed in anymore than Adolph Hitler and gang did.
> 
> A problem the DNC has had since oh about Kennedy.


Yes, I find it not at all surprising that you shower praise on a tyrant and shove a revolutionary freedom fighter into the mud. The supreme irony of your support for Adams is that without Jefferson, Obama would have the power to boot you and all his critics out of America or jail you.

----------


## usfan

> This conversation is one of the greatest in HBO history and exemplifies the difference between myself and you, @usfan.  You are Adams and I am Jefferson


Interesting.. i remember watching that adams mini series on hbo.. it was pretty good, especially for hbo!   :Tongue20: 

So i'll summarize, & deduce you think i have less faith in my fellow man.. am more cynical & jaded, whereas you have more faith in your fellow man, & believe him to be basically good.

I guess i can buy that.. but i do have confidence in my fellow americans, IF they are allowed to think.. wait.. if they will themselves think things through, & not be patsies for the statists.. or the federalists, to keep it in the same genre.

I also believe our govt is only as good as the people.. it will reflect the fiber of the nation.   We obviously don't get enough fiber as a nation.. we are constipated with politicians full of shit.  That is a sad commentary on our condition, now.  I do hope the american people will gain some altruistic spirit, & stop being a bunch of spoiled, greedy, self-serving brats.  But if all they can think of is free stuff, or what they can get from govt, the quote from Kennedy has lost meaning.

..my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.

----------


## Archer

> Interesting.. i remember watching that adams mini series on hbo.. it was pretty good, especially for hbo!  
> 
> So i'll summarize, & deduce you think i have less faith in my fellow man.. am more cynical & jaded, whereas you have more faith in your fellow man, & believe him to be basically good.
> 
> I guess i can buy that.. but i do have confidence in my fellow americans, IF they are allowed to think.. wait.. if they will themselves think things through, & not be patsies for the statists.. or the federalists, to keep it in the same genre.
> 
> I also believe our govt is only as good as the people.. it will reflect the fiber of the nation.   We obviously don't get enough fiber as a nation.. we are constipated with politicians full of shit.  That is a sad commentary on our condition, now.  I do hope the american people will gain some altruistic spirit, & stop being a bunch of spoiled, greedy, self-serving brats.  But if all they can think of is free stuff, or what they can get from govt, the quote from Kennedy has lost meaning.
> 
> ..my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.


The new motto: ask not what your country can do to become solvent - ask what it can do to spread the wealth and fill your pockets.

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usfan (04-28-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

If @usfan is John Adams and @Rina_Dragonborn is Thomas Jefferson, then I am Thomas Paine.

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----------


## usfan

You're a pain, alright..    :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-28-2013)

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## Francesco

> That is pure unadulterated immature nonsense.  A plebe parrotting bullshit that some OWS/Socialist/Communist/loser has told this immature child.
> Do politicians make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do corporations make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do schoolteachers make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do Baptist Ministers make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do Priests make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do immature little children make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> 
> To stupidly blame all on corporations, is to expose the immeasurable depth of your ignorance.


It just so happens to be, that we were and still are in the remnants of a gigantic economic recession which was caused by the greed of corporations and the absence of regulation in the market. That to me seems kind of a big mistake, more than stealing a cookie from a jar. It's been like this for a very long time, they don't care about you or me. You may call me a fool, but who's the fool here, the elitist swine here who probably votes for these rich scum or the kid who actually is saying something insightful?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> That is pure unadulterated immature nonsense.  A plebe parrotting bullshit that some OWS/Socialist/Communist/loser has told this immature child.
> Do politicians make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do corporations make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do schoolteachers make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do Baptist Ministers make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do Priests make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> Do immature little children make mistakes and serve their own self interest SOMETIMES?  Yes.
> 
> To stupidly blame all on corporations, is to expose the immeasurable depth of your ignorance.


Corporations bankroll nearly every politician we have in office. Sometimes, the same corporation will fund both a Democrat and a Republican. After the 2012 elections, Wall Street came out and said they'll back Democrats more than they already do and Republicans less than they already do if Republicans don't start winning elections.

The only person with an immeasurable depth of ignorance on the supreme power large corporations and banks wield in our nation is you. If you'd spend less time being an old, wart-ridden, crapulous toad and spent more time being humble and open-minded, you may learn something new about the world we live in. But for now, o former, self-proclaimed successful business owner: Thou hast neither heat, affection, limb, nor beauty, to make thy riches pleasant.

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## Archer

> It just so happens to be, that we were and still are in the remnants of a gigantic economic recession which was caused by the greed of corporations and the absence of regulation in the market. That to me seems kind of a big mistake, more than stealing a cookie from a jar. It's been like this for a very long time, they don't care about you or me. You may call me a fool, but who's the fool here, the elitist swine here who probably votes for these rich scum or the kid who actually is saying something insightful?


You only have part of that correct. Look deeper young one and reveal the entire truth of it. Study the history of the IRA, Money market accounts and the 401K. Note that at inception of each the markets climbed with the funding of blind non share voting investors who demanded higher returns. Watch as things morph with the 401K and the interest rates banks pay for savings fall. This is in correlation with the businesses no longer needing loans because they have funds they are free to risk.

Yea young one I tell you this was caused by the love of money by all not only the wealthy. The wealthy are being blamed for doing as ordered by the greedy.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-28-2013),usfan (04-28-2013)

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## Francesco

> You only have part of that correct. Look deeper young one and reveal the entire truth of it. Study the history of the IRA, Money market accounts and the 401K. Note that at inception of each the markets climbed with the funding of blind non share voting investors who demanded higher returns. Watch as things morph with the 401K and the interest rates banks pay for savings fall. This is in correlation with the businesses no longer needing loans because they have funds they are free to risk.
> 
> Yea young one I tell you this was caused by the love of money by all not only the wealthy. The wealthy are being blamed for doing as ordered by the greedy.


But usually its the wealthy who are the most greedy. National bailout, which in fact was denied by congress but its okay Bush made a back room deal anyways. 750 billion dollars to companies like Goldman Sachs who then take that money given to them and hand it out to their favorite leaders as bonuses. Or let's say the sub prime loaning, "No interest now!" Then of course you pay an outrageous amount later, while the company's top wealthy friends get super discounts, optimal loans. So you see the people who payed during this was not the wealy but the middle and lower classes. Of course bush made a huge deal of this near the end of his presidency, in order to take what was left from the table. So dan40 to you I say, let's continue to deregulate the banking industry, it'll do us good.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-28-2013)

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## The XL

> But usually its the wealthy who are the most greedy. National bailout, which in fact was denied by congress but its okay Bush made a back room deal anyways. 750 billion dollars to companies like Goldman Sachs who then take that money given to them and hand it out to their favorite leaders as bonuses. Or let's say the sub prime loaning, "No interest now!" Then of course you pay an outrageous amount later, while the company's top wealthy friends get super discounts, optimal loans. So you see the people who payed during this was not the wealy but the middle and lower classes. Of course bush made a huge deal of this near the end of his presidency, in order to take what was left from the table. So dan40 to you I say, let's continue to deregulate the banking industry, it'll do us good.


The bailouts were in the trillions, far more than 750 billion.

Yes, it is the huge corporations and banks that have done this, but they could not have done so without the help of government.  It was the government that forced the bailouts on the people.  

You don't want big government for this reason and reasons like this.  How can you count on a corrupt, bought government to regulate for the people?  You can't.

The best form of regulation in regards to the banking industry is the get government out of it, and let them fail.

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Archer (04-28-2013)

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## Archer

> But usually its the wealthy who are the most greedy. National bailout, which in fact was denied by congress but its okay Bush made a back room deal anyways. 750 billion dollars to companies like Goldman Sachs who then take that money given to them and hand it out to their favorite leaders as bonuses. Or let's say the sub prime loaning, "No interest now!" Then of course you pay an outrageous amount later, while the company's top wealthy friends get super discounts, optimal loans. So you see the people who payed during this was not the wealy but the middle and lower classes. Of course bush made a huge deal of this near the end of his presidency, in order to take what was left from the table. So dan40 to you I say, let's continue to deregulate the banking industry, it'll do us good.


Who made the rich that way? Who allowed this? Hey in the 90s money was coming in and people did not give a crap. Greed across the board. The wealthy are wealthy because of the greed of the less wealthy. 

You tell me to make you returns on your investments so I do. I get rich and you get what you asked for. I knew it was a bubble but you were too stupid to see it. I got mine and screw you. 

Everyone involved in this thinks the same way and if this were not the case jobs would not have gone to China. People would have asked why and investigated. They did not care as long as the 401K went up.

Guess what? Many of the dumb asses are now selling their 401s to pay for the home they should have known they could not afford.

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## Francesco

> The bailouts were in the trillions, far more than 750 billion.
> 
> Yes, it is the huge corporations and banks that have done this, but they could not have done so without the help of government.  It was the government that forced the bailouts on the people.  
> 
> You don't want big government for this reason and reasons like this.  How can you count on a corrupt, bought government to regulate for the people?  You can't.
> 
> The best form of regulation in regards to the banking industry is the get government out of it, and let them fail.


That was what capitalism is supposed to be, sink or swim. But these big guys are so up there, they own the government. So they decide to keep the government out when it benefits them and come seek its help when they need it, since its their government they can give themselves money, our tax money

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## The XL

> That was what capitalism is supposed to be, sink or swim. But these big guys are so up there, they own the government. So they decide to keep the government out when it benefits them and come seek its help when they need it, since its their government they can give themselves money, our tax money


Perhaps, but do you not see how it is impossible to count on the government to keep them in check when they own the government?

The bigger the government gets, the more power these guys get.

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Archer (04-28-2013)

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## Francesco

> Perhaps, but do you not see how it is impossible to count on the government to keep them in check when they own the government?
> 
> The bigger the government gets, the more power these guys get.


I do see that, but that can be solved, not everyone in the government was once or now is a rich CEO of a company or etc. there are some people in the government who are truly for the people. If you simply avoid putting people with prior positions of power (I don't mean political, economic) then you can regulate the market

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## Dan40

> It just so happens to be, that we were and still are in the remnants of a gigantic economic recession which was caused by the greed of corporations and the absence of regulation in the market. That to me seems kind of a big mistake, more than stealing a cookie from a jar. It's been like this for a very long time, they don't care about you or me. You may call me a fool, but who's the fool here, the elitist swine here who probably votes for these rich scum or the kid who actually is saying something insightful?


When the premise on which your life is based is 100% wrong, there is no possibility that you can EVER make a wise decision.  And your premise is wrong.  History, not me, proves that.  You parrot the whine of the underachiever and parasite on society.  You wish to NOT make any effort to further your country, you wish to bleed it for your own parasitic desires.
The FACT is that BUSINESS and CORPORATIONS are the single major factor that made this country great.  And it is corporations and business that is allowing third world nations to catch the US and surpass it.  With idiots like you and the OWS tearing it down, the US will not last long.  And with the collapse of the US, THERE WILL NO LONGER BE FREEDOM FOR YOU IDIOTS TO SPROUT YOUR PARASITIC WHINES.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> When the premise on which your life is based is 100% wrong, there is no possibility that you can EVER make a wise decision.  And your premise is wrong.  History, not me, proves that.  You parrot the whine of the underachiever and parasite on society.  You wish to NOT make any effort to further your country, you wish to bleed it for your own parasitic desires.
> The FACT is that BUSINESS and CORPORATIONS are the single major factor that made this country great.  And it is corporations and business that is allowing third world nations to catch the US and surpass it.  With idiots like you and the OWS tearing it down, the US will not last long.  And with the collapse of the US, THERE WILL NO LONGER BE FREEDOM FOR YOU IDIOTS TO SPROUT YOUR PARASITIC WHINES.


Do you even live in America? My god man, open your eyes. The freedom we have in America today is a fucking illusion. 

It's already gone.

----------


## Dan40

> But usually its the wealthy who are the most greedy. _National bailout, which in fact was denied by congress but its okay Bush made a back room deal anyways. 750 billion dollars to companies like Goldman Sachs_ who then take that money given to them and hand it out to their favorite leaders as bonuses. Or let's say the sub prime loaning, "No interest now!" Then of course you pay an outrageous amount later, while the company's top wealthy friends get super discounts, optimal loans. So you see the people who payed during this was not the wealy but the middle and lower classes. Of course bush made a huge deal of this near the end of his presidency, in order to take what was left from the table. So dan40 to you I say, let's continue to deregulate the banking industry, it'll do us good.


Do you lack even a figment of knowledge that is factual and correct?
Do you research ANY of the bullshit you parrot?

"_National bailout, which in fact was denied by congress but  its okay Bush made a back room deal anyways. 750 billion dollars to  companies like Goldman Sachs."_


TARP was approved by a Democratically controlled House   263-171 and a Democratically controlled Senate 74-25(The ailing Ted Kennedy not voting) TARP was written for $700 billion, NOT $750 Billion, but was cut back to $450 billion.  And the entire $450 Was not LENT out.  TARP was a LOAN, not a gift.  And all but about $50 billion HAS been repaid WITH INTEREST.  The unpaid amounts are write offs as the companies that received those loans did not survive.  Contained within the TARP provisions was a REQUIREMENT that every cent paid back could ONLY be used to pay down the National Debt.  But when hussein ben barrack became president, he got the Democratically controlled Congress to rescind that portion of TARP and allow HIM to use the money as HE saw fit.

Perhaps IF you knew anything that was true and factual, you wouldn't post ideological idiocy and ignorance.
But so far ALL indications are that you are a brainwashed asshole that actually KNOWS nothing that is true.  You vomit lots of propaganda, none of it correct.

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## Dan40

> Do you even live in America? My god man, open your eyes. The freedom we have in America today is a fucking illusion. 
> 
> It's already gone.


More stupid ideological bullshit.  You ever been anywhere else?  I live in the USa and I'm extremely free to say what I wish, to come and go as I wish, To associate with whoever I wish, to Travel almost anywhere, anywhere I wish to go.  I am free to invest my money as I wish.  I am free to spend my money as I wish.  If you think you have no freedom, your paranoia is completely out of control.  Its clinically imperative that you seek help.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> More stupid ideological bullshit.  You ever been anywhere else?  I live in the USa and I'm extremely free to say what I wish, to come and go as I wish, To associate with whoever I wish, to Travel almost anywhere, anywhere I wish to go.  I am free to invest my money as I wish.  I am free to spend my money as I wish.  If you think you have no freedom, your paranoia is completely out of control.  Its clinically imperative that you seek help.


Blah blah blah. Right. Alright, Dan. Travel to Pakistan and sit in the same city as someone like Anwar al-Awlaki. See how fast our government kills you for using your right to travel and associate with whomever you wish.

And yes, I've been to several other countries. What's your point?

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## Dan40

> It just so happens to be, that we were and still are in the remnants of a gigantic economic recession which was caused by the greed of corporations and the absence of regulation in the market. That to me seems kind of a big mistake, more than stealing a cookie from a jar. It's been like this for a very long time, they don't care about you or me. You may call me a fool, but who's the fool here, the elitist swine here who probably votes for these rich scum or the kid who actually is saying something insightful?


You don't have a fucking clue what might be INSIGHTFUL because you live in a world of propaganda.  ALL of the crap you sprout is propaganda and WRONG.  The recession did not come from corporations, it was born by politicians seeking to buy the votes of people as stupid as you.  The corporations involved, AGAINST THEIR WILL, fought the politicians for 30 and more years, but finally succumbed when politicians laid so many no risk billions in the street that corporations simply picked it up.  As the politicians said they HAD TO by law.  But by then the recession, housing crash and financial crash were already locked in.  But OWS idiots like yourself have no interest in facts and reality, you just need a ready target for your ignorance.
And in case you have not figured it out, I am a "fat cat."  I ran Multimillion dollar international companies.  And I am proud to say that I never did one single dishonest thing in 40 plus years of business.  Business does take long, long hours, much HARD WORK, determination, and dedication.  But dishonesty is not needed.  Do some businessmen cut corners, absolutely.  There are shitheads in every walk of life, business is no exception.  But the bad are but a small minority, NOT THE RULE, as you've been brainwashed to believe.  Believe, not think as you obviously don't bother thinking.

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usfan (04-29-2013)

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## Guest

> It just so happens to be, that we were and still are in the remnants of a gigantic economic recession which was caused by the greed of corporations and the absence of regulation in the market. That to me seems kind of a big mistake, more than stealing a cookie from a jar. It's been like this for a very long time, they don't care about you or me. You may call me a fool, but who's the fool here, the elitist swine here who probably votes for these rich scum or the kid who actually is saying something insightful?


There was regulation.  Those regulations were created by the corporations through their minions on K street, for the express purpose of collapsing banks everywhere, so that a few would remain standing in a banking and investment oligopoly. 

It was manufactured for this express purpose.  The writing is on the wall.  Research "Libor".

----------


## Guest

> Jefferson, a doer with numerous accomplishments.
> 
> Ron Paul a useless bloviator that accomplished NOTHING in his lifetime.  He championed many good ideas and some bad and/or ridiculous ideas.  But NEVER accomplish ANYTHING that he spoke about.  A lifelong loser.
> 
> The best idea in the world, that is stillborn, equals NOTHING.  Dr. Paul was the Planned Parenthood of his ideas.


I would refute all this but in my present mood I'll take an infraction and just say : FUCK YOU.

----------


## Gemini

@Dan40




> You don't have a ******* clue what might be INSIGHTFUL because you live in a world of propaganda.


Fact, we do live in a world of propaganda, some of us are wise enough to see through it.  Or fortunate to have others show us the way.




> ALL of the crap you sprout is propaganda and WRONG.


A hasty generalization, and inaccurate as well.  Not a good pattern to start here man.  But hey, whatever floats your goat...




> The recession did not come from corporations, it was born by politicians seeking to buy the votes of people as stupid as you.


Eh...sort of.  Politicians are owned by whoever sponsors their re-election.  So some corporations were certainly opposed to it, and others for it because they knew the game plan from the beginning - to get bailed out by the taxpayer. But really, _berating a young man shouldn't be something that builds your ego_.




> The corporations involved, AGAINST THEIR WILL, fought the politicians for 30 and more years, but finally succumbed when politicians laid so many no risk billions in the street that corporations simply picked it up.  As the politicians said they HAD TO by law.  But by then the recession, housing crash and financial crash were already locked in.  But OWS idiots like yourself have no interest in facts and reality, you just need a ready target for your ignorance.


Corporation fought?  No, the citizenry fought.  Corporations can't vote people into power, but people can.  Corporations bought.




> And in case you have not figured it out, I am a "fat cat."  I ran Multimillion dollar international companies.


I love fantasy role play!  I'm the King of Spain.

All joking aside, it really doesn't matter because verification is neither desired, or necessary.  But I'm detecting this as nothing more than an ego boost.  An unhealthy and undesirable pattern has been developed with you.




> And I am proud to say that I never did one single dishonest thing in 40 plus years of business.  Business does take long, long hours, much HARD WORK, determination, and dedication.  But dishonesty is not needed.  Do some businessmen cut corners, absolutely.  There are shitheads in every walk of life, business is no exception.  But the bad are but a small minority, NOT THE RULE, as you've been brainwashed to believe.  Believe, not think as you obviously don't bother thinking.


Perhaps if you would spend more time debating, and less time insulting others, you might receive a more pleasant dialogue in return.  While what you said about running a business is true you're leaving something out - turds float to the top.

Sure not all businesses are corrupt, but when you climb the ladder high enough when we reach these billionaires they are very rarely altruistic at heart.  More akin to cut throat sharks than human beings.  Their actions and the impact on their fellow man are what I pay attention to, not their words.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-29-2013)

----------


## Dan40

> @Dan40
> 
> 
> 
> Fact, we do live in a world of propaganda, some of us are wise enough to see through it.  Or fortunate to have others show us the way.
> 
> 
> 
> A hasty generalization, and inaccurate as well.  Not a good pattern to start here man.  But hey, whatever floats your goat...
> ...


So you also choose to vomit propaganda and reveal your brainwashing.
Once they reach the top, billionaires become bad people.  On the 1 to 10 stupid scale, that's a 35.
And you choose to believe that I haven't been there.  That's just you hiding from the truth.  I have and do know many honest businessmen.  I do not know ANY dishonest ones.  That's not saying there aren't some, but they're not of my acquaintance.

Business didn't resist?  Again ignorance exposed.  The housing crises and financial crises involved banks for the most part.  Banks fought against the changes Congress made for years.  They fought the banking regulations that allowed them to make more and more risky loans.  They fought against the repeal of banking laws that kept investment and mortgage banks separate.  They fought against the invention of sub prime loans.  But every time they fought against Congress they faced more and more threatening conduct by federal banking regulators.
The same advice applies to you as to the plebe.  Research everything you're told or read.  Find the truth.  DO NOT look for OR accept info that bolsters your present position.  Whether some info agrees with your position are not, consider it a lie until you can verify it from INDEPENDENT sources.
I have a life long friend, going back to grade school.  He is a radical right b.o. hater.  Hew gives me info all the time.  I listen as I consider b.o. the worst possible president and a complete incompetent buffoon.  After listening to my bud, I research what he told me.  Altho it is info I'd like to be true, it is most often just as wrong as the propaganda sprouted by the left.
I'd like an easily identifiable target of opportunity, like corporations, like Congress, like our education system, like our complacent and uninformed voters, like our welfare parasites., like our entitlements, like our national debt, like our outrageous deficits.  But there is NO easy target.  Many problems exist.  Always have, always will.  We make do the best we can with what we have.  Dreaming of perfection, is a stupid waste of time.  Imagining how much you could do with 4 arms makes you an ass, because you're always going to have 2 or less.

----------


## Gemini

@Dan40




> So you also choose to vomit propaganda and reveal your brainwashing.
> Once they reach the top, billionaires become bad people.  On the 1 to 10 stupid scale, that's a 35.


That isn't even close to what I said.  C'mon man, I didn't write it in ancient Sumerian, read for crying out loud.

Try to not project so much.  Your inadequacies however harsh, are not my problems.  Frankly, I don't care.  Savvy?




> And you choose to believe that I haven't been there.  That's just you hiding from the truth.  I have and do know many honest businessmen.  I do not know ANY dishonest ones.  That's not saying there aren't some, but they're not of my acquaintance.


Where you have been, where you are, and where you are going are none of my concern, nor do I care to find out - don't flatter yourself, you are not that interesting to me.  




> Business didn't resist?  Again ignorance exposed.  The housing crises and financial crises involved banks for the most part.  Banks fought against the changes Congress made for years.  They fought the banking regulations that allowed them to make more and more risky loans.  They fought against the repeal of banking laws that kept investment and mortgage banks separate.  They fought against the invention of sub prime loans.  But every time they fought against Congress they faced more and more threatening conduct by federal banking regulators.


1 step backward to make two steps forward.  Banks move in calculated steps.  This one is no different.  When luring an opponent into a minefield, it is important to behave like a wounded pheasant so they chase you into the ambush.  The whole thing is scripted.  Politics and voting is largely show business - a placebo of the mind for the masses.




> The same advice applies to you as to the plebe.  Research everything you're told or read.  Find the truth.  DO NOT look for OR accept info that bolsters your present position.  Whether some info agrees with your position are not, consider it a lie until you can verify it from INDEPENDENT sources.


I find it strange, that if you actually used the method you recite to me, that you managed to arrive at a different conclusion.  I do set my gaze upon the truth whether helpful or hurtful as do many here on the forum.  Truth is paramount to convenience of agenda and the relationship thereof.




> I have a life long friend, going back to grade school.  He is a radical right b.o. hater.  Hew gives me info all the time.  I listen as I consider b.o. the worst possible president and a complete incompetent buffoon.  After listening to my bud, I research what he told me.  Altho it is info I'd like to be true, it is most often just as wrong as the propaganda sprouted by the left.


Your friends - I do not care about them, much like your personal life, or your professional life.  Or your life in general now that I think about it.

It's true, many on both wings of the bird are just as idiotic as they think their enemies are but fail to recognize it.  I'm not another feather in the vulture, don't confuse me for one.




> I'd like an easily identifiable target of opportunity, like corporations, like Congress, like our education system, like our complacent and uninformed voters, like our welfare parasites., like our entitlements, like our national debt, like our outrageous deficits.  But there is NO easy target.  Many problems exist.  Always have, always will.  We make do the best we can with what we have.  Dreaming of perfection, is a stupid waste of time.  Imagining how much you could do with 4 arms makes you an ass, because you're always going to have 2 or less.


We do have clear targets, we have had them for many years now.  Few, very few, are willing to actually takes steps towards their goals though.  The solution is quite simple - get back to the currency outlined in the Coinage Act of 1792, abolish the Federal Reserve and make the proposition of a sequel a capital offense by any member of congress or senate, institute terms limits for congress two 2 terms max, and if the national debt ever exceeds 3% GDP make all sitting members of congress ineligible for re-election.

Main difficulty is the last one, only congress has the authority to make such a law, and *they never will*.

Corporations, get rid of the status of corporations altogether.  The ultimate purpose of a corporation is to separate one from legal responsibility, and denial of personal responsibility is another root of the problem, perhaps the most important one.

But your dreaming of perfection bit, it does warrant a small amount credit.  Its true, dreaming is fun, but fruitless, and dreaming alone does nothing if that is all you do.  But without dreams we have nothing to aspire to.  Dreams are what inspired this world, and the work involved to bring them to fruition is what created it. The constant striving for perfection is our purpose on the earth.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-29-2013)

----------


## Dan40

> @Dan40
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't even close to what I said.  C'mon man, I didn't write it in ancient Sumerian, read for crying out loud.


You wrote:
"Sure not all businesses are corrupt, but when you climb the ladder high  enough *when we reach these billionaires they are* very rarely altruistic  at heart.*  More akin to cut throat sharks than human beings. * Their  actions and the impact on their fellow man are what I pay attention to,  not their words."


What does it mean if not what I claimed it means?

And FYI, I have been FOR term limits (2/6) for many years.  And for taking away, unelected, unfireable, bureaucrats ability to pass regulations without any Congressional or presidential over sight.  I've not only been for  term limits but for a total of 12 years in Congress.  House and Senate combined.

----------


## Francesco

> So you also choose to vomit propaganda and reveal your brainwashing.
> Once they reach the top, billionaires become bad people.  On the 1 to 10 stupid scale, that's a 35.
> And you choose to believe that I haven't been there.  That's just you hiding from the truth.  I have and do know many honest businessmen.  I do not know ANY dishonest ones.  That's not saying there aren't some, but they're not of my acquaintance.
> 
> Business didn't resist?  Again ignorance exposed.  The housing crises and financial crises involved banks for the most part.  Banks fought against the changes Congress made for years.  They fought the banking regulations that allowed them to make more and more risky loans.  They fought against the repeal of banking laws that kept investment and mortgage banks separate.  They fought against the invention of sub prime loans.  But every time they fought against Congress they faced more and more threatening conduct by federal banking regulators.
> The same advice applies to you as to the plebe.  Research everything you're told or read.  Find the truth.  DO NOT look for OR accept info that bolsters your present position.  Whether some info agrees with your position are not, consider it a lie until you can verify it from INDEPENDENT sources.
> I have a life long friend, going back to grade school.  He is a radical right b.o. hater.  Hew gives me info all the time.  I listen as I consider b.o. the worst possible president and a complete incompetent buffoon.  After listening to my bud, I research what he told me.  Altho it is info I'd like to be true, it is most often just as wrong as the propaganda sprouted by the left.
> I'd like an easily identifiable target of opportunity, like corporations, like Congress, like our education system, like our complacent and uninformed voters, like our welfare parasites., like our entitlements, like our national debt, like our outrageous deficits.  But there is NO easy target.  Many problems exist.  Always have, always will.  We make do the best we can with what we have.  Dreaming of perfection, is a stupid waste of time.  Imagining how much you could do with 4 arms makes you an ass, because you're always going to have 2 or less.


You know what dan40, suck my genitals. You're a bigot. Freedom of choice? Yes for the things that are important, we have plenty of choices! 5 oil companies now there are two, 2 political parties, a handful of insurance companies, but if you want a bagel there are 23 flavors. Who owns the media companies? the very same people lobbying for their business interests, im an idiot for saying that you say. The things that actually matter have been reduced in numbers, but to anyone who sees this, what do we call them a conscipiracy buff. You're a wackaloon if you see this. So I hope I never become like you, mean old corrupt. All the debates that occur in this country or anywhere are pre determined before they even begin to marginalize everyone as with or against the state, I'm sorry you don't like the truth but that's how it works. Again I don't ever want to be like you, a product sponge, soaking continuing the cycle of meaningless choices you call freedom

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-29-2013)

----------


## Guest

> You know what dan40, suck my genitals. You're a bigot. Freedom of choice? Yes for the things that are important, we have plenty of choices! 5 oil companies now there are two, 2 political parties, a handful of insurance companies, but if you want a bagel there are 23 flavors. Who owns the media companies? the very same people lobbying for their business interests, im an idiot for saying that you say. The things that actually matter have been reduced in numbers, but to anyone who sees this, what do we call them a conscipiracy buff. You're a wackaloon if you see this. So I hope I never become like you, mean old corrupt.


It's like your mine and @The XL's love child.   :Big Grin: 

That's my boy!

----------

Francesco (04-29-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-29-2013),The XL (04-29-2013)

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## Francesco

> It's like your mine and @The XL's love child.  
> 
> That's my boy!


Thank you

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## Francesco

Arguing with Dan40 is like playing chess with a pigeon, he knocks down a the pieces, takes a dump on the board then flies away proclaiming victory

----------

Gemini (04-29-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-29-2013),The XL (04-29-2013)

----------


## Gemini

> You wrote:
> "Sure not all businesses are corrupt, but when you climb the ladder high  enough *when we reach these billionaires they are* very rarely altruistic  at heart.*  More akin to cut throat sharks than human beings. * Their  actions and the impact on their fellow man are what I pay attention to,  not their words."
> 
> 
> What does it mean if not what I claimed it means?


You're operating in absolutes, what I said was not an absolute statement, it allows for caveats and outliers.




> And FYI, I have been FOR term limits (2/6) for many years.  And for taking away, unelected, unfireable, bureaucrats ability to pass regulations without any Congressional or presidential over sight.  I've not only been for  term limits but for a total of 12 years in Congress.  House and Senate combined.


Never said you were opposed actually, but I do kind of like your 12 year limit gig you proposed.  I'd make one addition to it though, I would add president to the list as well.  Up or out.  And in all cases, out eventually.

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## Gemini

> Arguing with Dan40 is like playing chess with a pigeon, he knocks down a the pieces, takes a dump on the board then flies away proclaiming victory


 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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The XL (04-29-2013)

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## Dan40

> This just proves the point of the great big American okie doke, as I've heard it been called. And you know entirely well what I mean "your standard of living is always improving, all men are equal, justice is blind, the american dream, and in this case the police is on your side." This drug war is really making me angry, we're so barbaric, every time we don't like something in this country we declare war on it. We love war, the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on poverty, the war on aids, etc. I have a great idea, we're so keen on the government not being tyrannical why don't they leave drugs alone and spend our money on things that actually make a difference, like hahah education.


Education, we spend right up at the top worldwide per student.  Yet our results are down at the mediocre level.  Since we outspend almost everyone [The Swiss spend more), how do you explain our poor showing in results?
Since spending more than everybody did not work, how will spending even more do the trick?

----------


## Francesco

> Education, we spend right up at the top worldwide per student.  Yet our results are down at the mediocre level.  Since we outspend almost everyone [The Swiss spend more), how do you explain our poor showing in results?
> Since spending more than everybody did not work, how will spending even more do the trick?


First of all, you didn't continue on reading, that should help clarify. Second of all the American people are pretty stupid in general. If you would of continued reading on you would notice that I said the last part just because I ran out of things to say. I don't think spending money will do anything to improve our results if the people are just stupid. And good job avoiding the previous discussion

----------


## Dan40

> You know what dan40, suck my genitals. You're a bigot. Freedom of choice? Yes for the things that are important, we have plenty of choices! 5 oil companies now there are two, 2 political parties, a handful of insurance companies, but if you want a bagel there are 23 flavors. Who owns the media companies? the very same people lobbying for their business interests, im an idiot for saying that you say. The things that actually matter have been reduced in numbers, but to anyone who sees this, what do we call them a conscipiracy buff. You're a wackaloon if you see this. So I hope I never become like you, mean old corrupt. All the debates that occur in this country or anywhere are pre determined before they even begin to marginalize everyone as with or against the state, I'm sorry you don't like the truth but that's how it works. Again I don't ever want to be like you, a product sponge, soaking continuing the cycle of meaningless choices you call freedom


Your genital flag of complete surrender is acknowledged.  Now that you have surrendered, should I leave you alone, or beat your woefully misinformed ass into the dirt?

Stay tuned.

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## Gemini

> Education, we spend right up at the top worldwide per student.  Yet our results are down at the mediocre level.  Since we outspend almost everyone [The Swiss spend more), how do you explain our poor showing in results?
> Since spending more than everybody did not work, how will spending even more do the trick?


Well in all honesty, we really haven't spent much on education.  We have spent gobs on indoctrination though.  But you are right in that spending gobs on education doesn't really produce good results.  The data says that if we spend more we get less when it comes to education.

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## Francesco

> Your genital flag of complete surrender is acknowledged.  Now that you have surrendered, should I leave you alone, or beat your woefully misinformed ass into the dirt?
> 
> Stay tuned.


Okay, I can tell you were one of the results that lowered our average in terms of education. Good inferencing skills. I applaud you, you're a genius. What else want to wave an American flag in my face? Please that first person you should inform is yourself. Pop that bubble of yours, you call reality, go back to school. Learn a few things before you demolish me with facts that you got from Wikipedia. Sound like a plan? I only said that because you changed topics completely, usually you run away, like the French army during ww2, or even better the Italian army during ww2.

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## Dan40

> Well in all honesty, we really haven't spent much on education.  We have spent gobs on indoctrination thought.  But you are right in that spending gobs on education doesn't really produce good results.  The data says that if we spend more we get less when it comes to education.


Geez, did Dan40, the stupid and blind squirrel accidentally find an acorn?

----------


## Francesco

> Geez, did Dan40, the stupid and blind squirrel accidentally find an acorn?


I'm pretty sure I've mentioned indoctrination centers

----------



----------


## Fearandloathing

"He said, however, the two policemen were not at fault. "

He said.

If it can be established they did not identify themselves, even if they were wearing "Police" vests, they are guilty of manslaughter in the first degree.

A similar thing happened here, only the man was beaten not killed as he attacked the two officers who responded to a domestic call but had the wrong entrance.

The cops cleared themselves.  A judicial revue though found that even though they said they were police, because the man did not speak Chinese and because they were at the wrong entrance, they were at fault, but not guilty. Police procedure has changed.

In this case there is no "hot pursuit", not reason to have raided without proper information which clearly was NOT the case.  

In the end, they had the wrong address and a man died.  Because of that they are no longer qualified to wear a badge.

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## The XL

> Arguing with Dan40 is like playing chess with a pigeon, he knocks down a the pieces, takes a dump on the board then flies away proclaiming victory


Lol, true.

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Francesco (04-29-2013)

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## Gemini

> Geez, did Dan40, the stupid and blind squirrel accidentally find an acorn?


It's been known to happen from time to time.

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## Francesco

> Lol, true.


See people agree. He doesn't rebuttal at all from what I said, he knows its right, but still claims he's victorious. Then he completely changes topics, tries to pry apart everything I say

----------


## Guest

> See people agree. He doesn't rebuttal at all from what I said, he knows its right, but still claims he's victorious. Then he completely changes topics, tries to pry apart everything I say


Pretty much.

----------


## Fearandloathing

> I'm a freedom fighter & an american idealist.  The ideals are the basis for our strength, like sampson's hair.  If we compromise our ideals, we lose our strength.  I see collectivism as a governmental ideal as a colossal failure.  I don't mind implementing some collectivism.. for military defense, infrastructure, etc, but it should be the people' choice.. 
> 
> I don't see anything other than a fairly regulated free market working.  Whenever the govt tries to meddle with the economy, it gets worse.  They need to keep their grubby fingers out of our economy.  Give is fair regulations for business, & a stable currency.  Otherwise, leave us alone.
> 
> No change with medical, either.  Govt already favors special interest, & gives a monopoly on medicine & practice.  They should deregulate it.. let alternative medicines compete, & take govt out of this commodity.  Why should govt provide healthcare, but not housing, food, water, or air?


Can I ask just how you have been a freedom fighter?

Where were you when the Patriot Act was passed?

I don't single you out, but ask as it seems so many Americans see themselves as great stalwarts of freedom, protectors of the bill of rights and yet that fucking fascist over reaction to a tragedy passed without so much as a whimper.  Over a decade later you still have civilians rights being violated every time they step on a plane.  More than ten years and billions in war on three fronts a half a world away and Gitmo is still torturing American citizens who have never even been allowed to speak to an attorney.

All this international mayhem, million upon millions of innocent civilians slaughtered, entire new generations of terrorists sprouted and flourished and the government still thinks it essential to spy on you without warrant, track you internet involvement and maintain the absolute divine right to arrest you and hold you in a prison in a foreign land for the rest of your life because you maybe once dressed up as an Arab for Halloween.

I am sorry and don't in any way wish to offend...but it appears from this listening post that all the American Freedom Fighters left a long time ago.....

Without a whimper of protest, the American electorate abandoned and made redundant every drop of blood shed in the name of freedom from the night Paul Revere warned the British [careful before you jump on that one!!] to the last shot fired in Europe.

----------



----------


## Francesco

> Pretty much.


Well then, I might as well go back to writing my poems

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## Guest

> Well then, I might as well go back to writing my poems


Poems???  I love poetry.  Send me some!

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## Francesco

> Poems???  I love poetry.  Send me some!


I'm not that great of a poet but Ill send one I've written anyways

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## Francesco

> I'm not that great of a poet but Ill send one I've written anyways


In fact ill post it on here so everyone can read it!

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## Guest

> In fact ill post it on here so everyone can read it!


That's a great idea.  A lot of us are writers and we would enjoy it.   :Smile:

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## Francesco

Confusion, bewilderment, pandemonium, ferment.
all at once yet none at all, doubt silently creeps up on me.
Feelings of triumph intermingled with feelings of dejection.
This mind is not a lemming, refusing to jump along with others.
they ridicule like sick twisted clowns, laughing and laughing.
I'm wrong so says the jeering clown, like I am a walrus performing for their sadistic pleasure.
it is this precise correlation, that the abstract equates to mental derangement, that the different who do not settle for conformity belong in the circus of freaks. This holds us back.
They snide, tainting the concepts they don't understand.
people constantly looking over their shoulders, seeking hegemony over the different.
the abstract painter isn't insane, he is only perceived to be by unbending minds.
this cloak of hatred must be torn and mended with the fabric and needle of acceptance
a Civil rights movement if you will, not for the politically or socially oppressed, but for the human spirit that it is okay not to agree with my beliefs or anyone's beliefs but its not acceptable to ridicule the abstract.
and so I am in despair, sad for not only me but all that go through the same as me.

I wrote this at 5 in the morning, don't be harsh, and I was inspired by the song I am the walrus by the Beatles

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-29-2013),The XL (04-29-2013)

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## Guest

> Confusion, bewilderment, pandemonium, ferment.
> all at once yet none at all, doubt silently creeps up on me.
> Feelings of triumph intermingled with feelings of dejection.
> This mind is not a lemming, refusing to jump along with others.
> they ridicule like sick twisted clowns, laughing and laughing.
> I'm wrong so says the jeering clown, like I am a walrus performing for their sadistic pleasure.
> it is this precise correlation, that the abstract equates to mental derangement, that the different who do not settle for conformity belong in the circus of freaks. This holds us back.
> They snide, tainting the concepts they don't understand.
> people constantly looking over their shoulders, seeking hegemony over the different.
> ...


 @Francesco

you are a deep kid.

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The XL (04-29-2013)

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## Francesco

> @Francesco
> 
> you are a deep kid.


That or just really dumb

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Your genital flag of complete surrender is acknowledged.  Now that you have surrendered, should I leave you alone, or beat your woefully misinformed ass into the dirt?
> 
> Stay tuned.


The only ass you've ever beaten into the dirt is your own.

----------


## The XL

> That or just really dumb


Nah.  You're writing poems and on a political forum at 14.  That's impressive.

When I was 14 I was playing games and watching Dragonball Z......err.......I still do that now, actually, at 24.  Haha.

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## Francesco

> Nah.  You're writing poems and on a political forum at 14.  That's impressive.
> 
> When I was 14 I was playing games and watching Dragonball Z......err.......I still do that now, actually, at 24.  Haha.


Yep well now I have to go write a poem anthology because my teacher is an idiot

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The XL (04-29-2013)

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## Guest

> Nah.  You're writing poems and on a political forum at 14.  That's impressive.
> 
> When I was 14 I was playing games and watching Dragonball Z......err.......I still do that now, actually, at 24.  Haha.


I'm watching Ninjago right now.

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The XL (04-29-2013)

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## Guest

> That or just really dumb


No way. You're a cool dude.

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The XL (04-29-2013)

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## The XL

> I'm watching Ninjago right now.


Nice.  You really dig that show, huh?  Lol.

----------


## Guest

> Nice.  You really dig that show, huh?  Lol.


I love this show.  If I were a little tiny lego ninja girl, I would have a lego ninja crush on Cole.

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## Francesco

> No way. You're a cool dude.


Well thank you

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----------


## Dan40

> The only ass you've ever beaten into the dirt is your own.


And yours.  Where is that link I asked for?  You who demands links to all and everything?

www.Ronpaul.com doesn't claim RP is a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party.  In fact they say RP IS a Republican.


www.thedailypaul doesn't claim RP is a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party.

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul#Elections
says this:

Political party Libertarian Party
(1988, lifetime member**)
Republican Party
(1956–1988, 1988–present)
** Ron Paul states that it's not illegal to belong to more than one political party.  

Not illegal, but hardly laudable.

And Wikipedia also says the Libertarian Party is the fastest growing political party in the US.  They've picked up less than 8,000 members per year.  I'd STATE that both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party do better than that EVERY year.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> And yours.  Where is that link I asked for?  You who demands links to all and everything?


I'll link when you link when I ask.




> www.Ronpaul.com doesn't claim RP is a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party.  In fact they say RP IS a Republican.
> 
> 
> www.thedailypaul doesn't claim RP is a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party.
> 
> And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Paul#Elections
> says this:
> 
> Political party Libertarian Party
> ...


So what? I don't give two shits about the Libertarian Party, especially now that they are turning their backs on the NAP.

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## Dan40

> I'll link when you link when I ask.
> 
> 
> 
> So what? I don't give two shits about the Libertarian Party, especially now that they are turning their backs on the NAP.


You don't care, yet you go spastic over Paul being a lifetime member.  Do you ask why there aren't lifetime memberships in the Democratic or Republican Parties?  Because they don't offer a lifetime membership.  LP does to bolster its meager roles.  And the only "PROOF" that we have of Ron Paul being a 'lifetime member' of the LP is his claim that he is.  Now WHO would ever doubt the word of a career politician?  Certainly not you or I.

2008, the "lifetime member, Paul was asked by the LP to be their presidential candidate.  The "lifetime member," Ron Paul, DECLINED to be the LP candidate.  He PREFERRED to run as a Republican.  The desperate LP passed a resolution that if Ron Paul FAILED [a dead solid lock] to win the Republican Party nomination, the desperate LP would still accept him as their candidate at that late date.  Now THERE is a winning plan.
Next election you can enjoy voting for your favorite Democratic, Republican, Libertarian, Constitution, Green Party candidate!

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## Dan40

> I'm pretty sure I've mentioned indoctrination centers


You mention a whole lot of crap that is totally wrong.  You have yet to mention anything that is right.

But for a teaching moment, lets assume you are right and all our problems are corporations.  Hmmm, this will be unfair.  In corporations, it is useless to just identify a problem, rightly or wrong.  What must be offered are SOLUTIONS.  So what solutions do you offer for the "corporation" problems?

----------


## Francesco

> You mention a whole lot of crap that is totally wrong.  You have yet to mention anything that is right.
> 
> But for a teaching moment, lets assume you are right and all our problems are corporations.  Hmmm, this will be unfair.  In corporations, it is useless to just identify a problem, rightly or wrong.  What must be offered are SOLUTIONS.  So what solutions do you offer for the "corporation" problems?


You do realize I use the term corporation vaguely right? You're the only person to disagree with everything I say, yet everyone else for the most part agrees. Are you that arrogant, to think that you're intellectually superior to the majority of the people who support me on this forum? Arrogant, selfish, unenlightened thinking doesn't impress me. You're a fool please just go die in a car fire. Stop trying to disprove me, every time I bring up a point, you leave with your tail between your legs and stop answering. Stop running away proclaiming victory over the fact you showed me some pathetic biased facts from a non verified source, which I do rebuttal, and you refuse to respond. I'm tired of you, I honestly am, I'm tired of stupidity.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> You don't care, yet you go spastic over Paul being a lifetime member.


Only because you get a troll hardon anytime someone brings up libertarianism or Ron Paul. If you weren't so deliberately dense when it comes to the difference between a party and a philosophy, I'd never bring it up.




> Do you ask why there aren't lifetime memberships in the Democratic or Republican Parties?  Because they don't offer a lifetime membership.  LP does to bolster its meager roles.  And the only "PROOF" that we have of Ron Paul being a 'lifetime member' of the LP is his claim that he is.  Now WHO would ever doubt the word of a career politician?  Certainly not you or I.


Why they do it is irrelevant. You claimed he was not a member of the Libertarian Party. He is a lifetime member. So you were wrong.

----------


## Dan40

> Only because you get a troll hardon anytime someone brings up libertarianism or Ron Paul. If you weren't so deliberately dense when it comes to the difference between a party and a philosophy, I'd never bring it up.
> 
> 
> 
> Why they do it is irrelevant. You claimed he was not a member of the Libertarian Party. He is a lifetime member. So you were wrong.


So far all I've been able to find is a CLAIM by a professional politician, that he is BOTH a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party, which is not possible since the LP was formed when Paul was 36 years old.
He also claims to be a registered Republican.  That has some credibility as the Republican Party allowed him to be on the ballot for the RP primaries.

An "independent source," RonPaul.com clearly stated that "although Ron Paul IS a Republican,,,,,,,,"

So do you have some source corraborating the QUESTIONABLE claim of a professional politician/liar?  Or are you demanding I take the word of any professional politician at face value?

I have been wrong, and I DO admit when I'm proven to be wrong.  But I will not say I'm wrong on the word of a politician with an utterly failed career.

And I'm a little bothered by your ongoing interest in my troll hardon.

My problem with RP is how does he elicit such loyalty from naive idiots when he has spent 30+ years in politics, getting NOTHING passed, stopping NOTHING from being passed and accomplishing exactly ZERO for a career.  Not a single bill of his talking points EVER passed.  Not a single election against a strong opponent EVER won.
0+0+0=0

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> So far all I've been able to find is a CLAIM by a professional politician, that he is BOTH a lifetime member of the Libertarian Party, which is not possible since the LP was formed when Paul was 36 years old.


You can get a lifetime membership of the Libertarian Party at any age. It's not like you're born with it, dumbass.




> He also claims to be a registered Republican.  That has some credibility as the Republican Party allowed him to be on the ballot for the RP primaries.
> 
> An "independent source," RonPaul.com clearly stated that "although Ron Paul IS a Republican,,,,,,,,"
> 
> So do you have some source corraborating the QUESTIONABLE claim of a professional politician/liar?  Or are you demanding I take the word of any professional politician at face value?
> 
> I have been wrong, and I DO admit when I'm proven to be wrong.  But I will not say I'm wrong on the word of a politician with an utterly failed career.


Tell you what. You prove to me that you're a former multi-million dollar international business owner. Then I'll give you more sources confirming Ron Paul's lifetime membership to the LP.

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## Dan40

> You can get a lifetime membership of the Libertarian Party at any age. It's not like you're born with it, dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what. You prove to me that you're a former multi-million dollar international business owner. Then I'll give you more sources confirming Ron Paul's lifetime membership to the LP.


First, you missed the sarcasm, too subtle for you I guess.

And second, you will find me giving out NO personal info on the open web.  I have things to lose.  No facebook, no twitter no info.  Don't believe me about my career?  Of what possible interest is that of mine. I know what I've accomplished, your belief is not worth a thought. I don't see you as intelligent enough to take good advice.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

Then it would seem we're at an impasse. So, I'll move on to another BS claim you've made, while you're here.

On this same topic of Ron Paul's party membership, you said you have to register for a party in the U.S. That's factually incorrect. In some states, like Tennessee, party registration literally does not exist.

----------


## Dan40

> You do realize I use the term corporation vaguely right? You're the only person to disagree with everything I say, yet everyone else for the most part agrees. Are you that arrogant, to think that you're intellectually superior to the majority of the people who support me on this forum? Arrogant, selfish, unenlightened thinking doesn't impress me. You're a fool please just go die in a car fire. Stop trying to disprove me, every time I bring up a point, you leave with your tail between your legs and stop answering. Stop running away proclaiming victory over the fact you showed me some pathetic biased facts from a non verified source, which I do rebuttal, and you refuse to respond. I'm tired of you, I honestly am, I'm tired of stupidity.


Name one time I "ran away."  Perhaps you'd like to revisit the request for SOLUTIONS?  What did you just do but avoid an answer?  When I asked your opinion a while back about the FACT that only 323 people had been killed by rifles,  I got no answer.  You were ranting about assault weapons without any knowledge that they are in fact a tiny part of the homicide problem in the USA yet they seem to be the entire focus of the unenlightened.  More than 2000, almost 3000 people are murdered with knives, clubs and fists each year.  About 9 times those killed by assault weapons which are only weapons that resemble assault weapons.

When you can't answer which is 100% of the time, I'm stupid.  You could be wimpier, but you'd need lessons.

----------


## Dan40

> Then it would seem we're at an impasse. So, I'll move on to another BS claim you've made, while you're here.
> 
> On this same topic of Ron Paul's party membership, you said you have to register for a party in the U.S. That's factually incorrect. In some states, like Tennessee, party registration literally does not exist.


OK, you may ejaculate. _ I WAS WRONG_ TO INCLUDE TENNESSEE by saying "in THE US."  I should have said that party registration is asked or required in many US states.

So you Tenners have no closed primaries or party registration.  But you DO require photo ID's for the poor people to vote don't you?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> OK, you may ejaculate. _ I WAS WRONG_ TO INCLUDE TENNESSEE by saying "in THE US."  I should have said that party registration is asked or required in many US states.
> 
> So you Tenners have no closed primaries or party registration.  But you DO require photo ID's for the poor people to vote don't you?


No, we require photo ID for everyone to vote, regardless of their financial status.

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## Dan40

> No, we require photo ID for everyone to vote, regardless of their financial status.


But the poor people can't afford the cost of qualifying for a driver's license.  And they certainly cannot afford the more than $130.00 for a passport that they cannot afford to use.  The "RICH," whomever they may be, can afford all that and much, much more.  But, of course, I wouldn't know about that.

----------


## Archer

> But the poor people can't afford the cost of qualifying for a driver's license.  And they certainly cannot afford the more than $130.00 for a passport that they cannot afford to use.  The "RICH," whomever they may be, can afford all that and much, much more.  But, of course, I wouldn't know about that.


State ID cards.

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## Dan40

> State ID cards.


But they have no way to get to any state office to get a state issued ID card.  And they have no documentation to prove whom they are to get a state ID.  This is just a scam by TN. Republicans to deny the vote to the poor.

Don't you speak liberalese?

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> But the poor people can't afford the cost of qualifying for a driver's license.  And they certainly cannot afford the more than $130.00 for a passport that they cannot afford to use.  The "RICH," whomever they may be, can afford all that and much, much more.  But, of course, I wouldn't know about that.


No, not really. Here, licenses and ID cards are pretty inexpensive, and there are charities and churches (like the one I work at) to go to if you need help.

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## Dan40

> No, not really. Here, licenses and ID cards are pretty inexpensive, and there are charities and churches (like the one I work at) to go to if you need help.


Then why do you liberals insist that voter ID is a Republican/right wing/tea party,  CONSPIRACY to deny the vote to poor people?  How do the poor come down out of the hills to get an ID?  On their mules?  How do they prove they ARE, who they claim to be?  An X, co-signed by an XX?

And how confused is TN?  They make Jack Daniels whiskey in a dry county.  That's loopy!
Do they make an exception for the quality control tasters?  That must be a real sought after job.

----------


## usfan

> Can I ask just how you have been a freedom fighter?
> Where were you when the Patriot Act was passed?
> I don't single you out, but ask as it seems so many Americans see themselves as great stalwarts of freedom, protectors of the bill of rights and yet that fucking fascist over reaction to a tragedy passed without so much as a whimper.  Over a decade later you still have civilians rights being violated every time they step on a plane.  More than ten years and billions in war on three fronts a half a world away and Gitmo is still torturing American citizens who have never even been allowed to speak to an attorney.
> 
> All this international mayhem, million upon millions of innocent civilians slaughtered, entire new generations of terrorists sprouted and flourished and the government still thinks it essential to spy on you without warrant, track you internet involvement and maintain the absolute divine right to arrest you and hold you in a prison in a foreign land for the rest of your life because you maybe once dressed up as an Arab for Halloween.
> I am sorry and don't in any way wish to offend...but it appears from this listening post that all the American Freedom Fighters left a long time ago.....
> Without a whimper of protest, the American electorate abandoned and made redundant every drop of blood shed in the name of freedom from the night Paul Revere warned the British [careful before you jump on that one!!] to the last shot fired in Europe.


Now what's the fun in that?  Ok, i'm not really a 'fighter' but just a big talker.  I've never even shot at a statist.  But i try to include flowery prose in my posts, to get a point across, & illustrate with more colorful words.  I don't have long hair like sampson, & really, the statists' fingers probably aren't grubby.    :Rofl: 

For now, my 'fight' is in the ideology, not on the street.  My weapons are words, & my battlefield is the public arena.

But don't underestimate my resolve, nor my commitment, even if i am an armchair quarterback!   :Old:

----------


## JohnAdams

> Then why do you liberals insist that voter ID is a Republican/right wing/tea party,  CONSPIRACY to deny the vote to poor people?  How do the poor come down out of the hills to get an ID?  On their mules?  How do they prove they ARE, who they claim to be?  An X, co-signed by an XX?
> 
> And how confused is TN?  They make Jack Daniels whiskey in a dry county.  That's loopy!
> Do they make an exception for the quality control tasters?  That must be a real sought after job.


Oh it gets even loopier than that. If you go visit the factory you can have a tasting, and drink a  shot, (which will put your breathalyzer way over the legal limit) and buy the whiskey too. 

But the second you pull off the lot onto the road, if the cops there want to be real pricks, they can stop you, not only charge you with DUI, but with violation of the "dry county laws" too impound your car and the booze, and put you in jail. Now how f'd up is that?

----------


## Dan40

> Oh it gets even loopier than that. If you go visit the factory you can have a tasting, and drink a  shot, (which will put your breathalyzer way over the legal limit) and buy the whiskey too. 
> 
> 
> 
> But the second you pull off the lot onto the road, if the cops there want to be real pricks, they can stop you, not only charge you with DUI, but with violation of the "dry county laws" too impound your car and the booze, and put you in jail. *Now how f'd up is that?*


Completely?

And I bet it doesn't even keep the tax base down.

And here I thought southern Sheriff's speed traps were bad! :Wtf20:  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Then why do you liberals insist that voter ID is a Republican/right wing/tea party,  CONSPIRACY to deny the vote to poor people?  How do the poor come down out of the hills to get an ID?  On their mules?  How do they prove they ARE, who they claim to be?  An X, co-signed by an XX?


I have never said that. 




> And how confused is TN?  They make Jack Daniels whiskey in a dry county.  That's loopy!
> Do they make an exception for the quality control tasters?  That must be a real sought after job.


It's not available for sale in Moore county, but they can still make it.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Oh it gets even loopier than that. If you go visit the factory you can have a tasting, and drink a  shot, (which will put your breathalyzer way over the legal limit) and buy the whiskey too. 
> 
> But the second you pull off the lot onto the road, if the cops there want to be real pricks, they can stop you, not only charge you with DUI, but with violation of the "dry county laws" too impound your car and the booze, and put you in jail. Now how f'd up is that?


But they don't.

----------


## Fearandloathing

> Now what's the fun in that?  Ok, i'm not really a 'fighter' but just a big talker.  I've never even shot at a statist.  But i try to include flowery prose in my posts, to get a point across, & illustrate with more colorful words.  I don't have long hair like sampson, & really, the statists' fingers probably aren't grubby.   
> 
> For now, my 'fight' is in the ideology, not on the street.  My weapons are words, & my battlefield is the public arena.
> 
> But don't underestimate my resolve, nor my commitment, even if i am an armchair quarterback!


Then how about some honesty?

Call yourself an advocate...or something because those of us who have been arrested [four times] in fighting for freedoms, those who have been tear gassed, find your "flowery prose" [which is is not, it is at least exaggeration if not bullshit] boastful and empty.

I say again, it appears the freedom fighters in the US have all left.

----------


## Fearandloathing

> But they don't.


Today.

There is something seriously wrong there.  They can sell it to you, but if you buy and try to transport it they can bust you?

There may be a case of entrapment there [third party liability] or selective enforcement.  I would suggest they don't enfoce because they know the courts would dump faster than Michelle Obama plans a vacation.

----------


## usfan

> Then how about some honesty?
> Call yourself an advocate...or something because those of us who have been arrested [four times] in fighting for freedoms, those who have been tear gassed, find your "flowery prose" [which is is not, it is at least exaggeration if not bullshit] boastful and empty.
> I say again, it appears the freedom fighters in the US have all left.


Well, you can  minimize me, for now, f&l, but i'm not at the 'armed rebellion' stage.. yet.

If it gets to that, time will tell.  I'm under no compunction to meet your standards for 'freedom fighter', whatever they are.  I'm an american ideologue, & for now, that is it.  I'm not the least impressed with your 'more radical than thou' attitude, though.  AFAIK, you're just a big talker, too.   :Lame:

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Today.
> 
> There is something seriously wrong there.  They can sell it to you, but if you buy and try to transport it they can bust you?
> 
> There may be a case of entrapment there [third party liability] or selective enforcement.  I would suggest they don't enfoce because they know the courts would dump faster than Michelle Obama plans a vacation.


They could because Moore county is a dry county, but they don't because in general, Tennessee cops are not dickbags like the NYPD or LAPD.

----------


## Dan40

> I have never said that.


Liberals say that.  It's like a mantra to liberals.  You identify yourself as a liberal,,,,,,,ergo,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


And LEGALLY making whiskey in a dry county IS loopy.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Liberals say that.  It's like a mantra to liberals.  You identify yourself as a liberal,,,,,,,ergo,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


"Liberals" do not say that. "Some Democrats" (well, prolly most) say that.




> And LEGALLY making whiskey in a dry county IS loopy.


Not really. If the plant was there before it became a dry county, they wouldn't force the plant to move, especially now that it's on the National Register of Historic Places.

Besides, Jack Daniels is a household name in Tennessee.

----------


## Dan40

> "Liberals" do not say that. "Some Democrats" (well, prolly most) say that.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. If the plant was there before it became a dry county, they wouldn't force the plant to move, especially now that it's on the National Register of Historic Places.
> 
> Besides, Jack Daniels is a household name in Tennessee.


Tennessee has solved their own fuel problems. They imported 50million
tons of sand from the Arabs and they're going to drill for their own oil!

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Tennessee has solved their own fuel problems. They imported 50million
> tons of sand from the Arabs and they're going to drill for their own oil!


Where did you hear this?

----------


## Guest

This thread has gone weird places.

----------

Gemini (05-01-2013),Sinestro/Green Arrow (05-01-2013)

----------


## garyo

> This thread has gone weird places.


I like weird places, you in?

----------



----------


## Archer

> But they have no way to get to any state office to get a state issued ID card.  And they have no documentation to prove whom they are to get a state ID.  This is just a scam by TN. Republicans to deny the vote to the poor.
> 
> Don't you speak liberalese?


It is total BS though. I mean if they can get to the poll they can get an ID :Smile:

----------


## Dan40

> Where did you hear this?


wuz eye ronk?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> wuz eye ronk?


I don't know. Nobody I know here has heard about it. I asked the state House Majority Leader and he didn't know either.

----------


## Dan40

> I don't know. Nobody I know here has heard about it. I asked the state House Majority Leader and he didn't know either.


Its a conspiracy to keep you and you only in the dark.  They KNOW, they're just not telling YOU they KNOW!

----------

