# Stuff and Things > Guns and Self Defense >  The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7

## DonGlock26

> Choosing the Best Concealed Carry Caliber
> 
> 
> By: Dick Jones | March 7, 2016
> 
> 
> 
> Bigger guns are better stoppers, but they weigh more and are harder to carry comfortably. Every choice involving concealed carry is a compromise, but modern ammunition makes calibers that were once marginal much more effective.
> 
> ...

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Jehoshaphat (05-15-2016),Quark (05-15-2016),Sheldonna (05-19-2016),usfan (05-16-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

Wisdom first uttered in 1911;The .32 ACP in my pocket beats your .45ACP in your glove box.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),Sheldonna (05-19-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

The 45ACP on my hip will beat anything else that anyone has got.

You can only best this with a 357 in an open carry holster.

And open carry is NOT concealed.

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## Ill-informed

Khar 9mm?

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Big Bird (05-15-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> The 45ACP on my hip will beat anything else that anyone has got.
> 
> You can only best this with a 357 in an open carry holster.
> 
> And open carry is NOT concealed.


 Since when was open carry legal in California?  LASD will gun you down in minutes if you try to open carry. Your millions of libtard neighbors will have called 9-11 by the time you get to your mail box.

You are digging in deeper and deeper in every thread.

The answer is not some specific caliber or make and model. The answer is always , the one you have on you.

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MedicineBow (05-15-2016)

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## Kodiak

They'd call SWAT if anyone in California was caught with a .45 on their hip.  :Smiley ROFLMAO: 
Here in rural Nevada they would ask you if it's for sale.  :Thumbsup20:

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Jim Rockford (05-15-2016),MedicineBow (05-15-2016),Quark (05-15-2016),Rickity Plumber (05-17-2016)

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## hoytmonger

Another moronic cut-and-paste post by *<<don't change a person's name to mock them or for any other reason>>*.

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## Madison

Smith & Wesson pistol

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## Jim Rockford

> Smith & Wesson pistol


 Is it locked in a safe with your legal ownership papers?

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## sandhurstdelta

> They'd call SWAT if anyone in California was caught with a .45 on their hip. 
> Here in rural Nevada they would ask you if it's for sale.


That's true and precisely why you need to wear a sweatshirt AND a jacket over it.

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## sandhurstdelta

> Since when was open carry legal in California?  LASD will gun you down in minutes if you try to open carry. Your millions of libtard neighbors will have called 9-11 by the time you get to your mail box.
> 
> You are digging in deeper and deeper in every thread.
> 
> The answer is not some specific caliber or make and model. The answer is always , the one you have on you.


Straw man.

Red herring.

Open carry is not legal in many states.

That's why the 357 is a useless handgun for self defense in public.

You can stock your gun safe full of them but that won't help you.

But it is no reason to carry a mouse gun either.

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## Kodiak

> Open carry is not legal in most states.


Wrong.  Many states allow open carry.  You just have to use your head when to do it.

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Jim Rockford (05-15-2016),MedicineBow (05-15-2016),Quark (05-15-2016),texmaster (05-15-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

Ahhhh. The handgun debate. What caliber.

  Primary gun on the strong side of my body, with a backup gun on the weak side / kidney area. If the strong arm is hurt, damaged, out of commission ; I don't have to bend over to my ankle, reach inside a jacket or a pants pocket to reach the backup gun. My weak arm simply draws my backup within a mere two or three seconds.

 I can take my Glock 9mm handgun, with +P ammo and shoot 80 yards......accurately.....across a parking lot at the mall,  if I have to. 

 I killed a deer last year ( A trial event of the gun - and test of ammo ) with my Glock 9mm. The inside of the deer was tore up, and the chest cavity was full of blood. SOOOO, I can put meat on the table if I have to with my handgun, OR I can use it for self defense.

 In todays society, you need a standoff weapon. You need a weapon that can go against carbines and intermediate range weapons. Hence my Glock 9mm can hit a human silhouette at 100 yards. I have 17 rounds of firepower if I need to lay down "Cover fire", or to "Shoot and scoot" if I am caught in the open - and need to shoot toward the perps while I find cover.

 9mm +P ammo almost compares with the .357 Magnum in ballistics, and well overtakes the .38 SPL round.

  Security personnel the world over, choose the Glock 19 as a primary sidearm.

  Me, I favor my Glock 17.


        : Joe

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),Jim Rockford (05-15-2016)

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## Kodiak

Don't tell sandhurstdelta you favor Glocks Joe.  He'll tell you it's the biggest piece of crap ever made.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> Don't tell sandhurstdelta you favor Glocks Joe.  He'll tell you it's the biggest piece of crap ever made.


Then he will say Joe can't open carry and his backup mouse gun is worthless. What a dolt.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),Kodiak (05-15-2016)

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## Big Bird

> Wrong.  Many states allow open carry.  You just have to use your head when to do it.


Texas is now open carry with CHL as of the 1st of Jan.

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Kodiak (05-15-2016),texmaster (05-15-2016)

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## Kodiak

> Texas is now open carry with CHL as of the 1st of Jan.


Yea, the map is a little dated, but was trying to prove a point to the all-knowing one.

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## Big Bird

I carry a Kahr CM9 most of the time just because I'm too lazy to drag around a big gun..

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),Kodiak (05-15-2016)

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## MedicineBow

> That's true and precisely why you need to wear a sweatshirt AND a jacket over it.


 July and August are great times to be wearing both a sweatshirt and a jacket. Doesn't look out of place at all.

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Kodiak (05-15-2016)

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## Quark

> The 45ACP on my hip will beat anything else that anyone has got.
> 
> You can only best this with a 357 in an open carry holster.
> 
> And open carry is NOT concealed.


I'm a .45 Auto fan and have two 1911's in the .45 Auto.  But a .38 Super or 10MM is probably a better choice in this day in age if one wants to carry a big auto 1911 or any other auto. Both can easily compete with a .357 mag. and do it better. However, I use a .380 Auto Browning 1911-380 for concealed carry. Light and effective for me in my area of operation.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

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## Quark

> That's true and precisely why you need to wear a sweatshirt AND a jacket over it.


So I'm curious can the average rank and file serf in California get a concealed carry permit without going through hell to get it?

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## Kodiak

> I carry a Kahr CM9 most of the time just because I'm too lazy to drag around a big gun..


Same here, with a Crimson Trace in a pocket holster.

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Big Bird (05-15-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> Then he will say Joe can't open carry and his backup mouse gun is worthless. What a dolt.


  WV - KY - OH - VA : Yes I can open carry.

  And I have my Concealed Carry permit, and I have had it since the summer of 1991 -  Instructed by a Deputy Sheriff whom was a certified NRA Instructor.


 : Joe

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Jim Rockford (05-15-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> Don't tell sandhurstdelta you favor Glocks Joe.  He'll tell you it's the biggest piece of crap ever made.



 Glocks - Used by the US Military, British Military, Israelis, A Large portion of US Law Enforcement, Security personnel and services all over the world, German GSG-9.....and ect - ect - ect.

  What other handgun, OTHER than H&K will shoot standard pressure, +P  pressure, and +P+ presure ammo.....steadily, without failures or malfunctions? NONE ! Nada. Zip. Even Sig Sauer warns against continued use of over pressure ammo. Smith & Wesson----> Nope, they dont want you to either.

Glock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



           : Joe

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> Same here, with a Crimson Trace in a pocket holster.



  Triggers are too gritty on a Kahr for me.

   Pick a "J" Frame handgun.


         : Joe

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## Kodiak

> Triggers are too gritty on a Kahr for me.
> 
>    Pick a "J" Frame handgun
> 
> 
>          : Joe


I've had a couple of J frames a 442 and an M60. Really kick myself for letting the M60 go to a friend of mine that won't give it up.  I will get another one soon.  The Kahr triggers are really heavy as well. I just like the fact I can carry it in my front pocket and it looks like a wallet in the pocket holster.

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## Big Bird

> Triggers are too gritty on a Kahr for me.
> 
>    Pick a "J" Frame handgun.
> 
> 
>          : Joe


  	 	 	 	   My Kahrs came out of the box with real good triggers but then again they're a few years old. Maybe Kahrs went down the tubes since I bought mine.

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## texmaster

> Texas is now open carry with CHL as of the 1st of Jan.


There goes hollywood   I mean sandhurstdelta's argument.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

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## Kodiak

> My Kahrs came out of the box with real good triggers but then again they're a few years old. Maybe Kahrs went down the tubes since I bought mine.


They aren't target guns, so I don't expect a match trigger.  Mine isn't really gritty and it's about 4 or 5 years old, but they do have an awfully long pull.  But that is the trade off for no safety of any kind.

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## sandhurstdelta

> There goes hollywood   I mean sandhurstdelta's argument.


I do not have the luxury of living and working in an open carry state.

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## sandhurstdelta

> So I'm curious can the average rank and file serf in California get a concealed carry permit without going through hell to get it?


The northern counties are more feasible than the coastal or southern counties.

You need to take a 2 day course and apply at the sheriffs dept.

Depending on where you live you may get it or not.

These are valid all over the state however.

The requirement is keep the pistol and the permit concealed.

You may not flash either.

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## Quark

Thanks. I'm glad I live in Montana. I'm sure glad I was never born in California. I probably would have been in jail by the age of ten.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> Ahhhh. The handgun debate. What caliber.
> 
>   Primary gun on the strong side of my body, with a backup gun on the weak side / kidney area. If the strong arm is hurt, damaged, out of commission ; I don't have to bend over to my ankle, reach inside a jacket or a pants pocket to reach the backup gun. My weak arm simply draws my backup within a mere two or three seconds.
> 
>  I can take my Glock 9mm handgun, with +P ammo and shoot 80 yards......accurately.....across a parking lot at the mall,  if I have to. 
> 
>  I killed a deer last year ( A trial event of the gun - and test of ammo ) with my Glock 9mm. The inside of the deer was tore up, and the chest cavity was full of blood. SOOOO, I can put meat on the table if I have to with my handgun, OR I can use it for self defense.
> 
>  In todays society, you need a standoff weapon. You need a weapon that can go against carbines and intermediate range weapons. Hence my Glock 9mm can hit a human silhouette at 100 yards. I have 17 rounds of firepower if I need to lay down "Cover fire", or to "Shoot and scoot" if I am caught in the open - and need to shoot toward the perps while I find cover.
> ...


The first rule of choosing a cartridge is that it must be able to bring down the quarry you intend for it.

Having chosen your cartridge then you may choose an appropriate firearm.

A lot of people get this wrong.

And then in their anecdotal experience they think they can kill anything.

But anecdotal experience is a fallacy and does not prove anything.

The teeming masses will do anything and buy anything and believe anything however.

Just as a fool and his money are soon parted.

But a fool and his life can be easily parted also.

Precisely why I am no fan of Glocks or AR's and their fans are no fan of me.

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## sandhurstdelta

> Thanks. I'm glad I live in Montana. I'm sure glad I was never born in California. I probably would have been in jail by the age of ten.


Arizona and Vermont have the best gun laws in their constitutional carry statutes.

Other states will hit you up for a license.

And some other states will infringe your natural and constitutional rights.

That's the unfortunate reality of living in the USA -- it all depends on your state.

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## Kodiak

What kills me is the 10 day wait period to buy a firearm.  We have a local liquor/gun store in this small town where you can go in and get a bottle of Jack and an AR and walk out the door.  Try THAT in California.
Now I hear to buy ammo you have to pass a background check and pay a $50 fee.  Screw that!

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> Don't tell sandhurstdelta you favor Glocks Joe.  He'll tell you it's the biggest piece of crap ever made.


The AR's are actually the biggest piece of crap.

The Glock's are in a close second though.

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## sandhurstdelta

> Then he will say Joe can't open carry and his backup mouse gun is worthless. What a dolt.


Dolts carry mouse guns.  So if you need an I/Q test for a dolt check his mouse gun(s).  He probably has several.

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## sandhurstdelta

> I carry a Kahr CM9 most of the time just because I'm too lazy to drag around a big gun..


I cannot think of any good reason to carry a mouse gun like this one.

What I would love to watch is one of the mouse gun fans actually pull out and use their mouse guns against some thug armed with a bigger Glock.

That would be a hilarious sight other than the blood everywhere -- the mouse gun owner's blood.

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## sandhurstdelta

> July and August are great times to be wearing both a sweatshirt and a jacket. Doesn't look out of place at all.


Cut the sleeves off your sweatshirt, and get a windbreaker jacket.

Wrap the jacket around your waist.

Problem solved.

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## sandhurstdelta

> I'm a .45 Auto fan and have two 1911's in the .45 Auto.  But a .38 Super or 10MM is probably a better choice in this day in age if one wants to carry a big auto 1911 or any other auto. Both can easily compete with a .357 mag. and do it better. However, I use a .380 Auto Browning 1911-380 for concealed carry. Light and effective for me in my area of operation.


The best thing about the 1911's is that they are completely reliable and safe.  This cannot be said about any Glock.

And several gun makers like SIG and CZ make single/and/double action 45ACPs very similar to the 1911's except adding the double action feature in addition.

The 9x19's in JHP's perform favorably with the 45ACP's and hold more ammo.  But in a state where 10 rounds is the limit then you might as well go for the 45ACP instead.

11.43 mm's beats 9mm's any day.

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## Jim Rockford

The troll is busy tonite.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-15-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> The troll is busy tonite.


You are indeed.

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## Kodiak

> The AR's are actually the biggest piece of crap.
> 
> The Glock's are in a close second though.


You can really be a tool sometimes.  The point was being able to walk out the door with a firearm, at the time you purchase it..............not wait 10 days.   But you have to turn every firearm thread into a Glock or AR bash fest. Everyone has different tastes, that's just the way life is.  YOUR way is not the ONLY way.  This is a concealed carry thread.  The majority of us have no desire to carry a big ass 1911.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),Quark (05-16-2016)

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## Someguy

I hate to even participate in a thread like this.
Sandhurst can wander along with whatever he wants to believe.  It has no effect on me, or what I've learned through my own testing.
The cut and paste in the OP was done mostly because gun writers have to write something, to keep getting paid.  My little gun is an LCP, and I've chronographed the boutique crap ammo.  I prefer the old fashioned Rem. 92 gr. JHP.
The gibberish about wanting to keep the bullet in the body is goofy.  A proper exit wound can go 2" in dia. with the right 9mm ammo.  You can't fix that, and you can't make it stop bleeding.  It will make the enemy stop shooting at you.
I don't care who agrees with me or not.  I run with what I know.

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Jim Rockford (05-15-2016),Quark (05-16-2016)

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## texmaster

> You are indeed.


He's talking to you Hollywood.

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Jim Rockford (05-16-2016),Rickity Plumber (05-17-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> You can really be a tool sometimes.  The point was being able to walk out the door with a firearm, at the time you purchase it..............not wait 10 days.   But you have to turn every firearm thread into a Glock or AR bash fest. Everyone has different tastes, that's just the way life is.  YOUR way is not the ONLY way.  This is a concealed carry thread.  The majority of us have no desire to carry a big ass 1911.


You would be a lot better off with a big ass 1911 and then your own ass would actually be safe.

The risk of you shooting yourself would go down.

The risk of your pistol jamming would go down too.

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## sandhurstdelta

> I hate to even participate in a thread like this.
> Sandhurst can wander along with whatever he wants to believe.  It has no effect on me, or what I've learned through my own testing.
> The cut and paste in the OP was done mostly because gun writers have to write something, to keep getting paid.  My little gun is an LCP, and I've chronographed the boutique crap ammo.  I prefer the old fashioned Rem. 92 gr. JHP.
> The gibberish about wanting to keep the bullet in the body is goofy.  A proper exit wound can go 2" in dia. with the right 9mm ammo.  You can't fix that, and you can't make it stop bleeding.  It will make the enemy stop shooting at you.
> I don't care who agrees with me or not.  I run with what I know.


You should start completely over and look at what the US Army decided in terms of anti personnel pistols back in 1910.

From there, your question should only be how long does the barrel need to be to deliver sufficient energy with sufficient accuracy.

Since then the only thing that has changed is the acceptability of the JHP bullet.  These used to be frowned upon but now they are mainstream due to reduced collateral damage to bystanders.

That leaves you with 2 choices then, and one of them is definitely not a mouse gun.

Would you instead prefer that I blow sunshine at you and then get you killed in a real gunfight ?!

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## Someguy

So, here I go, participating in this thread again.
If you want to have a genuine epiphany in regards to little guns vs. bigger ones, like the 1911, try your hand at point shooting.  With my G26, I can pull the gun, and fire the first 3 rounds, unaimed but accurate at close range in about 1/2 second.  That's 3 holes in the bad guy, before I've found my front sight.
Try that with a 1911 or similar size gun, and you'll only get the first round before you have to get better control.  Try it!  Get a decent sized watermelon, and try point shooting at it from about 15 feet.  Get back to me about the superiority of your big heavy gun.

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Quark (05-16-2016)

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## Someguy

Believe whatever you want to.  As I've said, it only hurts you, and no-one else.  I've had my little shootin' matches, which amount to more of the research that has gone into the way I do things.
I think it's essential to be pushed to the point of a real conflict.  There's no other way to know how you act when it happens.  For me, I go into a mode of concentrated thought, and that's all there is.  "Take your time, quickly" is the whole thing for me.  I haven't had to kill anyone in my effort to keep them from trying to kill me, and that's a very good thing.




> You should start completely over and look at what the US Army decided in terms of anti personnel pistols back in 1910.
> 
> From there, your question should only be how long does the barrel need to be to deliver sufficient energy with sufficient accuracy.
> 
> Since then the only thing that has changed is the acceptability of the JHP bullet.  These used to be frowned upon but now they are mainstream due to reduced collateral damage to bystanders.
> 
> That leaves you with 2 choices then, and one of them is definitely not a mouse gun.
> 
> Would you instead prefer that I blow sunshine at you and then get you killed in a real gunfight ?!

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## sandhurstdelta

> So, here I go, participating in this thread again.
> If you want to have a genuine epiphany in regards to little guns vs. bigger ones, like the 1911, try your hand at point shooting.  With my G26, I can pull the gun, and fire the first 3 rounds, unaimed but accurate at close range in about 1/2 second.  That's 3 holes in the bad guy, before I've found my front sight.
> Try that with a 1911 or similar size gun, and you'll only get the first round before you have to get better control.  Try it!  Get a decent sized watermelon, and try point shooting at it from about 15 feet.  Get back to me about the superiority of your big heavy gun.


I have not noticed any difference in draw-and-shoot times with any of the small or medium sized pistols.

And a 1911A1 together with its clones (SIG, CZ etc.) are medium sized guns.

So a gunfight between your mouse gun and a full sized 45ACP is going to be devastating for you on the receiving end.

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## sandhurstdelta

> Believe whatever you want to.  As I've said, it only hurts you, and no-one else.  I've had my little shootin' matches, which amount to more of the research that has gone into the way I do things.


I believe it is never too late to improve yourself as long as you are still alive.

Hopefully for your own sake you will graduate to a 9x19mm or a 45ACP very soon and get rid of all the mouse guns.

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## Joe Hallenbeck

*The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7* 







            : Joe

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),Quark (05-16-2016),Rickity Plumber (05-17-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

*The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7

*






   : Joe

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Trinnity (05-16-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

*The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7*











   : Joe

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## Joe Hallenbeck

*The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7*









    : Joe

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Jim Rockford (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

*The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7

*










      : Joe

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texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> I believe it is never too late to improve yourself as long as you are still alive.
> 
> Hopefully for your own sake you will graduate to a 9x19mm or a 45ACP very soon and get rid of all the mouse guns.




   9mm Kurtz ( short ) / .380 killed many of people in World War 2.

   But that being said, I would think before choosing it as a defensive pistol. Maybe a backup gun?


         : Joe

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## protectionist

> I believe it is never too late to improve yourself as long as you are still alive.
> 
> Hopefully for your own sake you will graduate to a 9x19mm or a 45ACP very soon and get rid of all the mouse guns.


Robert Kennedy was killed with a .22

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texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## protectionist

> *The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Too big. Anything you can feel knocking around in your pocket is too big. Also, the bigger the gun, the easier it is to get caught as you try to get it out of your pocket.  Best CCW  is the .380. Small, lightweight, large diameter bullet, powerful.

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## Joe Hallenbeck

Sig P938





   Sig P232




  Sig P239






   : Joe

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## protectionist

*The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7

Kel-Tec P3AT     .380    Made in USA


*

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> *The Best Carry Gun? The One You Will Carry 24/7
> 
> Kel-Tec P3AT     .380    Made in USA
> 
> 
> *


Jeeze !!

You practically need tweezers to shoot that thing !!

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## DonGlock26

> So I'm curious can the average rank and file serf in California get a concealed carry permit without going through hell to get it?


I believe it depends on the whims of the local Sheriff.

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Quark (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> Circa 1960, Col. Jeff Cooper wrote that his repertoire of carry pistols included a full-size, all-steel Colt Government Model .45 auto for duty carry, a lightweight Colt Commander with barrel and slide three-quarters of an inch shorter and an aluminum that took three-quarters of a pound off the weight, but kept a full-length grip frame and full magazine capacity when concealment was important in casual clothing, *and a 2-inch barrel J-frame Smith & Wesson .38 for wear with a business suit*.
> 
> 
> https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/07/massad-ayoob/thoughts-on-pocket-pistol-carry-dangers-of-misapplied-force-nine-cases-bust-the-myth/


Cooper was the Jim Jones of the 1911 cult, but he used a J-Frame snubby when he couldn't hide ol' slab-sides. 

Do a "gun check"* on your 1911 fan boy buddies. I doubt you will find them carrying their 5" 1911 to their kid's
July soccer game. Shame them, if they are unarmed because the 1911 is too heavy or it is too hot outside.

* Gun check means asking a friend what concealed firearm they are carrying during normal activities.

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Quark (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## texmaster

> I believe it depends on the whims of the local Sheriff.


Yup.   That's why its next to impossible to get a class 3 license in Dallas Country.  The fucking liberal sheriffs keep denying everyone.

I have a Beretta S&W 40 which I love but for carrying around I like my Springfield Subcompact S&W40

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

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## Big Bird

> They aren't target guns, so I don't expect a match trigger.  Mine isn't really gritty and it's about 4 or 5 years old, but they do have an awfully long pull.  But that is the trade off for no safety of any kind.


  	 	 	 	   I've always been a big 1911 fan but I'm too stupid to use that gun for defense. I can't even count the number of times I've put my 1911 on target and started squeezing the trigger only to see the front sight start shaking because I forgot to drop the thumb safety.  
 So I don't use guns with safeties for defense.
 I used to carry a Firestar .40 which is a dam good gun but it had a safety.
 My carry guns are now Kahrs and my house gun is a Glock.

 Everything else is fun guns.

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DonGlock26 (05-16-2016),Kodiak (05-16-2016),Rickity Plumber (05-17-2016)

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## protectionist

> Jeeze !!
> 
> You practically need tweezers to shoot that thing !!


Small, lightweight, packs more punch (at close range) than a 9MM, and same as a .38

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Quark (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## Big Bird

Cop 357 made in the U.S.A.
cop357.JPG

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## usfan

Here's my current favorite.. which has been very fluid choice over the years!



The sccy cpx-2.. 11+1 of 9mm in a small, compact package.  Tough to beat the capacity, size, & weight combination.  I still carry an LCR sometimes.. maybe half the time, for the better ergonomics, or the glock 30s if i want a big slug, but for the most part, the sccy is a nice, consistent, reliable pistol.

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## Big Bird

Kahr CM 9

cm9.JPG

I mostly carry it in a holster but sometimes pocket carry in baggy pants.
I carry this all day long and seldom notice it on me.

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DonGlock26 (09-07-2017)

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## Kodiak

> You would be a lot better off with a big ass 1911 and then your own ass would actually be safe.
> 
> The risk of you shooting yourself would go down.
> 
> The risk of your pistol jamming would go down too.


No, you would be better off with M134 minigun, but we are talking about being practical.  1911's are NOT practical as a concealed carry for 95% of the people.   If it works for you, fine. I happen to own a Springfield Loaded 1911.   Gorgeous firearm, but being large,  overweight and too few rounds, it just sits in the safe looking pretty.  If I want to carry a .45 which is rare, I carry my Apex triggered M&P 45c in FDE.  Lighter, no safety to worry about and carries more rounds than a 1911. Probably another POS in your eyes, but I could not care less.  Over 1000 rounds through it and zero jams.

----------

Big Bird (05-16-2016),DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

----------


## Big Bird

> No, you would be better off with M134 minigun, but we are talking about being practical.  1911's are NOT practical as a concealed carry for 95% of the people.   If it works for you, fine. I happen to own a Springfield Loaded 1911.   Gorgeous firearm, but being large,  overweight and too few rounds, it just sits in the safe looking pretty.  If I want to carry a .45 which is rare, I carry my Apex triggered M&P 45c in FDE.  Lighter, no safety to worry about and carries more rounds than a 1911. Probably another POS in your eyes, but I could not care less.  Over 1000 rounds through it and zero jams.


  	 	 	 	   DAMMM → Thats a good lookin' gun!!!

----------

Kodiak (05-16-2016)

----------


## Kodiak

> DAMMM → Thats a good lookin' gun!!!


Thanks Big Bird.  It actually looks better in person, the FDE color looks muted in the pic.  Fun gun to shoot and fits my hand perfectly.  Apex triggers are awesome in M&P's.

----------


## Quark

> The first rule of choosing a cartridge is that it must be able to bring down the quarry you intend for it.
> 
> Having chosen your cartridge then you may choose an appropriate firearm.
> 
> A lot of people get this wrong.
> 
> And then in their anecdotal experience they think they can kill anything.
> 
> But anecdotal experience is a fallacy and does not prove anything.
> ...


In a self-defense gun the most important consideration is weight and then action followed by caliber. If a handgun is to heavy it will be left home, period. It the gun is unreliable or to complicated it will be of little use and probably left home as well. In self defense, shooting someone the odds are very slim and is up close and very personal, five yards and under. At that range almost any good caliber with a good bullet will get the job done. Heck, even a good modern derringer will get the job done in the right caliber.

----------

usfan (05-16-2016)

----------


## Quark

> Arizona and Vermont have the best gun laws in their constitutional carry statutes.
> 
> Other states will hit you up for a license.
> 
> And some other states will infringe your natural and constitutional rights.
> 
> That's the unfortunate reality of living in the USA -- it all depends on your state.


Arizona perhaps but Vermont is fighting for it's life in the gun control and carry world. The jury is still out if Vermont will survive in that world.

----------


## Quark

> You can really be a tool sometimes.  The point was being able to walk out the door with a firearm, at the time you purchase it..............not wait 10 days.   But you have to turn every firearm thread into a Glock or AR bash fest. Everyone has different tastes, that's just the way life is.  YOUR way is not the ONLY way.  This is a concealed carry thread.  The majority of us have no desire to carry a big ass 1911.


You are right and I have two in .45 Auto.

----------


## Quark

> So, here I go, participating in this thread again.
> If you want to have a genuine epiphany in regards to little guns vs. bigger ones, like the 1911, try your hand at point shooting.  With my G26, I can pull the gun, and fire the first 3 rounds, unaimed but accurate at close range in about 1/2 second.  That's 3 holes in the bad guy, before I've found my front sight.
> Try that with a 1911 or similar size gun, and you'll only get the first round before you have to get better control.  Try it!  Get a decent sized watermelon, and try point shooting at it from about 15 feet.  Get back to me about the superiority of your big heavy gun.


Sandhurstdelta is just spouting off on what he heard or read. He has no real life experience in self defense. When I hear people spout off on warfare that's when I know they have no real world experience in self defense.

----------

MedicineBow (05-16-2016)

----------


## Quark

> I have not noticed any difference in draw-and-shoot times with any of the small or medium sized pistols.
> 
> And a 1911A1 together with its clones (SIG, CZ etc.) are medium sized guns.
> 
> So a gunfight between your mouse gun and a full sized 45ACP is going to be devastating for you on the receiving end.


Now I know you have no idea of what you are talking about.

----------

Kodiak (05-16-2016)

----------


## Quark

> Cooper was the Jim Jones of the 1911 cult, but he used a J-Frame snubby when he couldn't hide ol' slab-sides. 
> 
> Do a "gun check"* on your 1911 fan boy buddies. I doubt you will find them carrying their 5" 1911 to their kid's
> July soccer game. Shame them, if they are unarmed because the 1911 is too heavy or it is too hot outside.
> 
> * Gun check means asking a friend what concealed firearm they are carrying during normal activities.


Right on!

----------


## usfan

The smith M&P line is a fantastic bargain in the firearms world.  I've got the full size 9mm, & it is always reliable, accurate, & equivalent to any of the top tier service pistols.  They generally run ~ $100 less than the euro pistols, & are well made, in the US.  They outsell glocks in the US market.  I've liked the shield for years.. as a compact carry piece.

But the point of the OP is that a smaller, lighter weapon will more likely be carried, so it is a good idea to have one of those, even if you have other big honking guns for other uses.  I sometimes carry a little NAA revolver in 22lr, when on hikes or dog walks, as a deterrence to coyotes or other beasts here in the Az desert.  I would much rather carry it than nothing, or a big 44 magnum that stays in the safe.  IMO, a pocket 9mm is a good compromise for a carry piece.  it is also the most popular one, so most people agree on that, as well.  Some think they 'need' a big old 45 slug, which of course, would be more powerful.    But plenty of crimes have been deterred by a small pistol, and the odds of 'needing' a big bore cartridge are much less than you would think, statistically.

----------

Quark (05-16-2016)

----------


## Quark

> Small, lightweight, packs more punch (at close range) than a 9MM, and same as a .38


That's really where it is at with self defense close range. In fact, very close range.

----------


## Big Bird

> Jeeze !!
> 
> You practically need tweezers to shoot that thing !!


I've been giving some thought to a .380.
It would be nice to have a real pocket gun.

----------


## Kodiak

> Now I know you have no idea of what you are talking about.


It doesn't matter, he will keep spewing his BS even when he is proven wrong.

----------


## usfan

I've heard that 'statistically', most gunfights are over in 3 shots, & a few seconds.  Most criminals who are shot by a victim quit after 1 or 2 shots.. very few are hyped up on drugs or mental illness & keep coming.  Just the psychological effect of being shot stops most of them.  So caliber is not so much an issue as the act of shooting.  IOW, a 22 derringer would be adequate for the lion's share of gun encounters.  Anything more is added deterrence.

----------


## Kodiak

> I've been giving some thought to a .380.
> It would be nice to have a real pocket gun.


I bought a Glock 42 for the wife, and it is actually a tiny bit larger than my Kahr 9mm.  Now the Kahr p380 is really small.  I had one several years ago, but sold it in favor of the CM9.

----------

DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

----------


## Big Bird

> I bought a Glock 42 for the wife, and it is actually a tiny bit larger than my Kahr 9mm.  Now the Kahr p380 is really small.  I had one several years ago, but sold it in favor of the CM9.


I was sorta leaning towards the little Kahr..

----------


## Ill-informed

There is an old saying "fear the man that owns only one gun". Kind of silly but it makes a point. Some experts will suggest you name your pistol, learn to maintain, clean and shoot it proficiently. Concentrating on one firearm has many advantages. Familiarity (and accuracy) under stress is one of them. Most pistols can be altered to improve functions (trigger jobs, sight options, grips etc.) which can mitigate the particular weaknesses of a given model (Kahr triggers for example). Very few modern pistols cannot be improved by a competent gunsmith. Comfort and concealment often dictates the size (and caliber) one chooses. Models with no external safeties are preferred by many (for simplicity) and with proper holsters and training can be used "safely".

----------

Jim Rockford (05-16-2016),Quark (05-16-2016)

----------


## Big Bird

> There is an old saying "fear the man that owns only one gun". Kind of silly but it makes a point. Some experts will suggest you name your pistol, learn to maintain, clean and shoot it proficiently. Concentrating on one firearm has many advantages. Familiarity (and accuracy) under stress is one of them. Most pistols can be altered to improve functions (trigger jobs, sight options, grips etc.) which can mitigate the particular weaknesses of a given model (Kahr triggers for example). Very few modern pistols cannot be improved by a competent gunsmith. Comfort and concealment often dictates the size (and caliber) one chooses. Models with no external safeties are preferred by many (for simplicity) and with proper holsters and training can be used "safely".


Yeah but just one? That aint no fun.
Sometimes one just aint enuff.

fatchickz.jpeg

----------


## Someguy

You're so full of yourself that you haven't seen my references to 9x19.  The G26 is 9x19.  I won't go into the many years of research that led to my defensive handload, because I don't cast pearls before swine.
Believe what you want to, SD.  There are those among us who actually know this stuff.




> I believe it is never too late to improve yourself as long as you are still alive.
> 
> Hopefully for your own sake you will graduate to a 9x19mm or a 45ACP very soon and get rid of all the mouse guns.

----------


## Quark

> There is an old saying "fear the man that owns only one gun". Kind of silly but it makes a point. Some experts will suggest you name your pistol, learn to maintain, clean and shoot it proficiently. Concentrating on one firearm has many advantages. Familiarity (and accuracy) under stress is one of them. Most pistols can be altered to improve functions (trigger jobs, sight options, grips etc.) which can mitigate the particular weaknesses of a given model (Kahr triggers for example). Very few modern pistols cannot be improved by a competent gunsmith. Comfort and concealment often dictates the size (and caliber) one chooses. Models with no external safeties are preferred by many (for simplicity) and with proper holsters and training can be used "safely".


That's one reason I went with the Browning 1911-380. It's a combat pistol that is the same as my full size 1911's. No learning curve. It's in having a holster made for it right now.

----------

DonGlock26 (05-16-2016)

----------


## Ill-informed

Quark, I was not familiar with the Browning 1911- 380. I think it's brilliant that a 1911 enthusiast can "switch over" to a carry weapon "seamlessly". I learn something new every day.

----------


## Quark

> Quark, I was not familiar with the Browning 1911- 380. I think it's brilliant that a 1911 enthusiast can "switch over" to a carry weapon "seamlessly". I learn something new every day.


It's fairly new although it's based on the Browning 1911-22. I'm a southpaw and the biggest trouble I've had is getting a holster. Right now the gun is at the holster maker and I hope it's getting a new holster. The 1911-380 is 85% the size of a full size 1911 not merely a down sized 1911. Works really well.

----------

texmaster (05-16-2016)

----------


## sandhurstdelta

James Bond 007 made the 380's popular but I would surely hate to get into a real gunfight having one.

Same as Clint Eastwood made the 44 mags popular but these are worthless guns too.

----------


## Someguy

The master of the unqualified statement.  You say the .44 Mag. is "worthless", with no explanation?
In the old days of Dirty Harry, we were pretty much limited to 240 gr. semi wadcutters; either lead or soft nosed jacketed.  The problem with those was that they'd go through without any bullet upset, and therefore very little transferred energy.
By the time I had my Super Redhawk with a 9" barrel, we could get the 180 gr. Speer JHP, affectionately known as "the flying ash tray".  Different story.  I got that one to just about 1,900 fps.  I hit an 8 lb. can of peanut butter with that load one day, from about 30 feet, and got peanut butter all over me.  That would be an excellent load to use in a fight, within 100 yards.
Why do you insist on saying brainless things?




> James Bond 007 made the 380's popular but I would surely hate to get into a real gunfight having one.
> 
> Same as Clint Eastwood made the 44 mags popular but these are worthless guns too.

----------

Jim Rockford (05-16-2016),MedicineBow (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

----------


## MedicineBow

> James Bond 007 made the 380's popular but I would surely hate to get into a real gunfight having one.
> 
> Same as Clint Eastwood made the 44 mags popular but these are worthless guns too.


Please enlighten us with your vast dealings in gun fights.  You've made quite a few ignorant statements concerning firearms. Here's a hint for you- Not everybody is you nor is this about you. Most females aren't going to carry 1911's. While your choices may be good for YOU, it isn't necessarily the best choice for others.

 Tell us again exactly how many times you've used a firearm in self defense.  

 You make some truly ignorant statements. I, for one, have used a S&W mod. 29 in a self defense situation. I can out the winner in the altercation. I know 5 individuals that will likely rethink some stupid decisions to attempt to attack an armed citizen. Let's hear your story.

----------

Big Bird (05-16-2016),Jim Rockford (05-16-2016),Quark (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

----------


## Big Bird

> James Bond 007 made the 380's popular but I would surely hate to get into a real gunfight having one.
> 
> Same as Clint Eastwood made *the 44 mags popular but these are worthless guns* too.


  	 	 	 	   I beg to differ with you on the 44 mag. I cant speak for the average person but the .44 mag is a perfect hand-loaders caliber. You can load it down or load it up. There are very few limitations for  a .44 within the sensible  limitations of a handgun.

----------

MedicineBow (05-16-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016),usfan (05-16-2016)

----------


## usfan

> I beg to differ with you on the 44 mag. I cant speak for the average person but the .44 mag is a perfect hand-loaders caliber. You can load it down or load it up. There are very few limitations for  a .44 within the sensible  limitations of a handgun.


The big bores are great for reloaders, & like you say, you can go from mild to wild.  I reload 44 mag & spl, 45 colt, & 454 casull.  They're all about the same, ballistically, except the 454 is a bigger jump in power, recoil, & velocity.  I have a 44 mag lever rifle, too, & it is a nice companion piece for the big redhawk.  I've been tinkering with getting 460 rowland ballistics in a modified glock 21 in 45acp, & its been fun, but it is a bit pointless, with the easy shooting of the big redhawks.  For non reloaders, the 44 mag is a good choice.. lots of variety out there in factory ammo, but its still pretty pricey to shoot much.  

I mostly shoot milder loads in the 44.. even though it is a massive 7.5" revolver, the midrange loads are easy & accurate.  I'll shoot a few monster loads, just to keep the memory fresh, but only a few.  The power of a big 300 gr slug going 1200fps or more is pretty intimidating just to shoot.. anyone getting hit with one of those would never forget that experience..

So no, it is not  a 'worthless' caliber, any more than a 380.  It is one of the favorites for alaskan guides, & has probably taken more big game than any other pistol.

I've thought about getting a 380.. but i have plenty of small 9s, and don't see the minor decrease in size or weight worth adding it.  I have to admit, that tiny p3at, or the ruger lcp are pretty attractive, & give good ballistics for the size.  But i can get similar ballistics with a NAA 22 mag in a 5 shot revolver.. though it is single action.  I probably have too many guns, anyway, & should just enjoy & shoot the ones i have.  The grass isn't any greener on the other side.   :Smile:

----------

Big Bird (05-16-2016),Quark (05-16-2016)

----------


## texmaster

> Please enlighten us with your vast dealings in gun fights.  You've made quite a few ignorant statements concerning firearms. Here's a hint for you- Not everybody is you nor is this about you. Most females aren't going to carry 1911's. While your choices may be good for YOU, it isn't necessarily the best choice for others.
> 
>  Tell us again exactly how many times you've used a firearm in self defense.  
> 
>  You make some truly ignorant statements. I, for one, have used a S&W mod. 29 in a self defense situation. I can out the winner in the altercation. I know 5 individuals that will likely rethink some stupid decisions to attempt to attack an armed citizen. Let's hear your story.


That is all you will get.  A story.   This impersonator has already been exposed as a fake Marine and made a moronic claim that the 5.7x28 frequently jams and it took less than 5 minutes to disprove that too.

----------

MedicineBow (05-17-2016),Quark (05-16-2016)

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## Someguy

> I beg to differ with you on the 44 mag. I cant speak for the average person but the .44 mag is a perfect hand-loaders caliber. You can load it down or load it up. There are very few limitations for  a .44 within the sensible  limitations of a handgun.


Thank You for that enlightened post, Sir!
My favorite recreational hand gun ever was a stainless Super Blackhawk in .44 Mag.  My "super dooper" load for it used the 250 gr. Sierra FPJ, at about 1,350.  I figured that there was nothing in the Utah mountains that couldn't be handled with that.
My favorite load was a 240 gr. hard cast bullet, pushed by 8 gr. of Unique.  When I was a RSO, I'd get into impromptu shootin' matches with my buddy, who insisted that anything but a Colt was counterfeit.  At 25 yards, my best 6 shot group measured .625", edge to edge.  That load still chron'd at around 1,100 fps, putting it right in there with the old .45 Long Colt.
To clean that stainless barrel, I'd stick an earplug in the forcing cone, and fill the barrel with hydrogen peroxide, then let it stand for 10 minutes.  That took all of the lead fouling out.  I think it was peroxide.  It was a long time ago.  It seems that there was also something involving vinegar.  It doesn't matter now!

----------


## Quark

> James Bond 007 made the 380's popular but I would surely hate to get into a real gunfight having one. So wouldn't the BG getting hit with one.
> 
> Same as Clint Eastwood made the 44 mags popular but these are worthless guns too. Man you really don't know much about guns do you.

----------

texmaster (05-16-2016)

----------


## Quark

Any .44 mag will shoot .44 Specials. The lighter weight .44mag revolvers would do very well and last a long time shooting .44 Special loads for most applications with the .44 mag saved for those special needs..

----------

MedicineBow (05-17-2016),texmaster (05-16-2016)

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## Someguy

> Any .44 mag will shoot .44 Specials. The lighter  weight .44mag revolvers would do very well and last a long time shooting  .44 Special loads for most applications with the .44 mag saved for  those special needs..


That's all well and fine, but the thread is about the carry gun that you  will always have with you.  That kinda' rules out anything in .44  anything, unless you live in Alaska.
When I was a kid, part of what made me want to go to Alaska was that  every picture I saw of someone who lived there was wearing a Super  Blackhawk.  Something about the square trigger guard makes a kid want to  be there!
So anyway, is that smaller 1911 in .380 really what you prefer?  A friend of mine has a little Colt that is a miniature 1911 in 9mm with a Crimson Trace in the grip.  I train with Glock, but that thing pointed dead naturally for me.  We were shooting at one of those plastic things you can buy, at about 15 yards.  I would point first, and then turn on the laser.  It was already there.
BTW-   A fun thing with reloading .44 Mag.-  I once knew a guy who showed me  an old .44 Russian.  He had no ammo, and wanted some, just to keep it  loaded.  I read up on it (within my own paper library of the time), and  found that I could trim .44 Mag cases to work with it.  I made up some  ammo for him.

----------

Big Bird (05-17-2016)

----------


## Big Bird

> *That's all well and fine, but the thread is about the carry gun that you  will always have with you.  That kinda' rules out anything in .44  anything, unless you live in Alaska.*
> When I was a kid, part of what made me want to go to Alaska was that  every picture I saw of someone who lived there was wearing a Super  Blackhawk.  Something about the square trigger guard makes a kid want to  be there!
> So anyway, is that smaller 1911 in .380 really what you prefer?  A friend of mine has a little Colt that is a miniature 1911 in 9mm with a Crimson Trace in the grip.  I train with Glock, but that thing pointed dead naturally for me.  We were shooting at one of those plastic things you can buy, at about 15 yards.  I would point first, and then turn on the laser.  It was already there.
> BTW-   A fun thing with reloading .44 Mag.-  I once knew a guy who showed me  an old .44 Russian.  He had no ammo, and wanted some, just to keep it  loaded.  I read up on it (within my own paper library of the time), and  found that I could trim .44 Mag cases to work with it.  I made up some  ammo for him.


                        The .44 mag actually falls into the “All Around Gun” category. I only have one now, it's a 5” 629 Classic with a round butt.  I've concealed that gun many times with wooden grips. (The rubber Hogue grips cause clothing to cling to the grip and therefore “print”). However it is not a 24/7 carry gun at all. It's more of an 
_“All Around Gun”.._

----------


## Quark

> That's all well and fine, but the thread is about the carry gun that you  will always have with you.  That kinda' rules out anything in .44  anything, unless you live in Alaska.
> When I was a kid, part of what made me want to go to Alaska was that  every picture I saw of someone who lived there was wearing a Super  Blackhawk.  Something about the square trigger guard makes a kid want to  be there!
> So anyway, is that smaller 1911 in .380 really what you prefer?  A friend of mine has a little Colt that is a miniature 1911 in 9mm with a Crimson Trace in the grip.  I train with Glock, but that thing pointed dead naturally for me.  We were shooting at one of those plastic things you can buy, at about 15 yards.  I would point first, and then turn on the laser.  It was already there.
> BTW-   A fun thing with reloading .44 Mag.-  I once knew a guy who showed me  an old .44 Russian.  He had no ammo, and wanted some, just to keep it  loaded.  I read up on it (within my own paper library of the time), and  found that I could trim .44 Mag cases to work with it.  I made up some  ammo for him.


As to the Browning 1911-380, yes. It works just fine in my area of operation.

There are small frame light weight .44 mag revolvers out there for self defense on the streets and in the woods. For the streets, .44 Special, for the woods. 44 mag. These guns are not for everyone.

----------


## Quark

One thing that has not been brought up is muzzle flash and noise. Bigger calibers especially in short barrel guns produce sufficient flash and noise to render the shooter temporarily incapacitated for follow up shots even though recoil may not be that bad.

Food for thought in a self defense gun.

----------


## Big Bird

> One thing that has not been brought up is muzzle flash and noise. Bigger calibers especially in short barrel guns produce sufficient flash and noise to render the shooter temporarily incapacitated for follow up shots even though recoil may not be that bad.
> 
> Food for thought in a self defense gun.


   	 	 	 	   Well yeah but:
 In a .44 you wouldn't use a hot load for defense. A .44 loaded down to .45acp levels has about the same flash as a 45acp. Now: the .357 defense load is something like 110gr JHP moving @ 1300 – 1450 FPS and most of those rounds are hot and have much more noise and flash.

----------


## Quark

> Well yeah but:
>  In a .44 you wouldn't use a hot load for defense. A .44 loaded down to .45acp levels has about the same flash as a 45acp. Now: the .357 defense load is something like 110gr JHP moving @ 1300 – 1450 FPS and most of those rounds are hot and have much more noise and flash.


True but I just through this up for people to think about. So many people never ever thing about noise and flash especially those who don't normally own guns.

----------


## Rickity Plumber

> Straw man.
> 
> Red herring.
> 
> 
> That's why the 357 is a useless handgun for self defense in public.
> 
> .


Oh yeah? Seems to me that a .22 Beretta, or ANY handgun is the best for self defense in public. ANY sidearm whether it be a revolver or a semi-autoloader. 

Please explain why a .357 is useless for self defense in public. I 'll be waiting.

----------


## Rickity Plumber

> July and August are great times to be wearing both a sweatshirt and a jacket. Doesn't look out of place at all.


Or in Florida about any time of the year.

----------

MedicineBow (05-17-2016)

----------


## Rickity Plumber

> I have not noticed any difference in draw-and-shoot times with any of the small or medium sized pistols.
> 
> And a 1911A1 together with its clones (SIG, CZ etc.) are medium sized guns.
> 
> So a gunfight between your mouse gun and a full sized 45ACP is going to be devastating for you on the receiving end.


Wait a goddam minute. First you say for self DEFENSE in public a .357 is useless of which I replied earlier to your ridiculous claim. Now you are talking about gunfights. 

Which is it? Self defense in a public setting or a gunfight at the OK Ghetto?

Make up your mind please.

----------


## Rickity Plumber

> James Bond 007 made the 380's popular but I would surely hate to get into a real gunfight having one.
> 
> Same as Clint Eastwood made the 44 mags popular but these are worthless guns too.



As I said earlier, ANY weapon in a self defense situation is better than the one you do not have. Even a .44 Mag Redhawk, 7" Stainless with after market grips.

----------


## MedicineBow

> Or in Florida about any time of the year.


 I'm in Florida a lot..at least every month. I know exactly what you are saying.

----------

Rickity Plumber (05-18-2016)

----------


## usfan

> Oh yeah? Seems to me that a .22 Beretta, or ANY handgun is the best for self defense in public. ANY sidearm whether it be a revolver or a semi-autoloader. 
> 
> Please explain why a .357 is useless for self defense in public. I 'll be waiting.


yeah, that is crazy.  the 357 is one of the BEST self defence pistols out there, for the combination of power & size.  I have a 3" revolver in 357 that is dead accurate, & i would not feel or be undergunned in any imaginable social setting.  I'd have to have a rifle to beat the ballistics of the proven 357 round.

I would much rather shoot a 357 than either a 44 mag or 454 casull, in an equivalent sized firearm.  Too much power is just as problematic as too little.  It has to be manageable, & the 357 hits that balance (for most men, anyway).  9mm is fine, for size & capacity.  45acp is great for a big honking slug knocking anything down that gets in its way.  But the 357 gives you  near the size of a 9, with MORE power than a 45acp.  Lots of expert gunners  like Jerry Miculek have said that the 357 is the best all around pistol cartridge, & lots more agree.. including me.  I have accuracy out to ~ 100 yds, plenty of knockdown power, bone breaking penetration & velocity.. it is a fast, powerful cartridge, & should be shown some respect.  I don't think there is another any better.  I have half a dozen 357 revolvers, & a couple of lever rifles.  They can also shoot the classic 38 special, & are as versatile a caliber as they come.  My GP100 is the most accurate pistol i shoot, & the 4" S&W m627 with 8 rounds in moonclips is a fantastic shooter with fast reloads & good capacity.  

I like the 45 acp, & the other big bores for their massive slug, but the 357 is no slouch.  And for carry, i can slip a snubbie in a pocket, or IWB holster, & have all the power it is practical to carry in a small package.

----------

Quark (05-17-2016),Rickity Plumber (05-18-2016)

----------


## Big Bird

Just to be clear:
The .357 Rem 125 gr JHP was at one time the best handgun man stopper on the planet. Only in the past decade or so has some other calibers with "modern" ammo "slightly" exceeded it.
Please see link:
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/a...etails?id=4593

----------


## sandhurstdelta

> As I said earlier, ANY weapon in a self defense situation is better than the one you do not have. Even a .44 Mag Redhawk, 7" Stainless with after market grips.


Not if you are outgunned by a superior gun.

The pistols are ideal for self defense.  Always have been.  Always will be.

The best pistols are the 9x19, the 10mm, or the 45ACP.

The revolvers are obsolete.  The big revolvers are especially obsolete.

----------


## 4/15

When I take it away from you it won't seem like such a good choice.

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## Quark

> yeah, that is crazy.  the 357 is one of the BEST self defence pistols out there, for the combination of power & size.  I have a 3" revolver in 357 that is dead accurate, & i would not feel or be undergunned in any imaginable social setting.  I'd have to have a rifle to beat the ballistics of the proven 357 round.
> 
> I would much rather shoot a 357 than either a 44 mag or 454 casull, in an equivalent sized firearm.  Too much power is just as problematic as too little.  It has to be manageable, & the 357 hits that balance (for most men, anyway).  9mm is fine, for size & capacity.  45acp is great for a big honking slug knocking anything down that gets in its way.  But the 357 gives you  near the size of a 9, with MORE power than a 45acp.  Lots of expert gunners  like Jerry Miculek have said that the 357 is the best all around pistol cartridge, & lots more agree.. including me.  I have accuracy out to ~ 100 yds, plenty of knockdown power, bone breaking penetration & velocity.. it is a fast, powerful cartridge, & should be shown some respect.  I don't think there is another any better.  I have half a dozen 357 revolvers, & a couple of lever rifles.  They can also shoot the classic 38 special, & are as versatile a caliber as they come.  My GP100 is the most accurate pistol i shoot, & the 4" S&W m627 with 8 rounds in moonclips is a fantastic shooter with fast reloads & good capacity.  
> 
> I like the 45 acp, & the other big bores for their massive slug, but the 357 is no slouch.  And for carry, i can slip a snubbie in a pocket, or IWB holster, & have all the power it is practical to carry in a small package.


The original .357 was invented for the purpose of punching holes in the heavy steel of the 1920 and 30 automobiles  such as the door and blasting through the windshield. The .357 is no slouch by any stretch.

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sandhurstdelta (05-17-2016)

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## Quark

> Not if you are outgunned by a superior gun.
> 
> The pistols are ideal for self defense.  Always have been.  Always will be.
> 
> The best pistols are the 9x19, the 10mm, or the 45ACP.
> 
> The revolvers are obsolete.  The big revolvers are especially obsolete.


BS! For self defense revolvers are far from being obsolete and they always work. Heck, I would not even hesitate to use my Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt as a carry gun. Anybody hit with one of those slugs is in deep do do.

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MedicineBow (05-17-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> BS! For self defense revolvers are far from being obsolete and they always work. Heck, I would not even hesitate to use my Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt as a carry gun. Anybody hit with one of those slugs is in deep do do.


If you are allowed to carry it openly in your state and you don't mind being gawked at, sure, no problem -- other than you only have 6 rounds to use before you reload.

The 10 and 14 round mags with the various pistols way outclass any revolver in terms of ammo loaded into the gun.

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## sandhurstdelta

> The original .357 was invented for the purpose of punching holes in the heavy steel of the 1920 and 30 automobiles  such as the door and blasting through the windshield. The .357 is no slouch by any stretch.


Exactly.  This is why it is quite good for sheriffs and highway patrols who must often contend with cars.

It is overpowered for any other purposes.

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## sandhurstdelta

> When I take it away from you it won't seem like such a good choice.


If you eat it down your throat that is the only way you would be taking it away.

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## MedicineBow

> Not if you are outgunned by a superior gun.
> 
> The pistols are ideal for self defense.  Always have been.  Always will be.
> 
> The best pistols are the 9x19, the 10mm, or the 45ACP.
> 
> The revolvers are obsolete.  The big revolvers are especially obsolete.


 I'm beginning to believe you are simply clueless. I carry (and practice with) a multitude of guns. Unlike your silly claim of needing a jacket and some other outer garment,  I carry a specific firearm depending on the situation I may encounter and the clothing I'll be wearing for the day. Jackets on 90 degree days? You sound foolish. 

 I spend a considerable amount of time in wilderness areas where the animals don't care what I carry. I purposely purchased a Glock 20 for bears. I get a super reliable pistol and have a laser/light combo for it. When i'm on the motorcycle I carry a Glock 43 in the vest pocket. For normal everyday carry I'll have either a Kimber 1911 or a Glock 19 or 23. At times I'll carry my Charter Arms .44spl. I carry a multitude of firearms...usually for specific purposes and expectations.

 Many folks can't handle a 10mm. I can...no problems. I have it in the Glock platform and had a Colt Delta Elite.....wish I would have kept that one.

 There is no ONE best gun. You won't find many women carrying a 10mm or a .45 acp for that matter.

 You should stop all the ridiculous blather. Your opinion as absolute fact is laughable.

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Big Bird (05-17-2016),Jim Rockford (05-17-2016),Quark (05-17-2016)

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## John123

> Not if you are outgunned by a superior gun.
> 
> The pistols are ideal for self defense. Always have been. Always will be.
> 
> The best pistols are the 9x19, the 10mm, or the 45ACP.
> 
> The revolvers are obsolete. The big revolvers are especially obsolete.


If you're in a shootout with someone, you probably have the best chance of going somewhere else as fast as possible. Personally, I carry more for if someone approaches me with a knife or something like that. I use a 9MM or a .40, and they'll both do the job just damn fine.

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Rickity Plumber (05-18-2016)

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## John123

> If you are allowed to carry it openly in your state and you don't mind being gawked at, sure, no problem -- other than you only have 6 rounds to use before you reload.
> 
> The 10 and 14 round mags with the various pistols way outclass any revolver in terms of ammo loaded into the gun.


If you can't hit someone in _6_ shots, you either need to take better shots, or spend a lot more time at the range. With a .45, it probably won't take more than one shot to stop a thug; MAYBE two if your shot placement is bad.

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Big Bird (05-17-2016),MedicineBow (05-17-2016)

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## Quark

> If you are allowed to carry it openly in your state and you don't mind being gawked at, sure, no problem -- other than you only have 6 rounds to use before you reload.
> 
> The 10 and 14 round mags with the various pistols way outclass any revolver in terms of ammo loaded into the gun.


We can open carry but a 4-3/4" barrel would not be that hard to conceal. Mine is a 5-1/2" barrel and I doubt it would be much harder to carry concealed than 1911. However, I'll admit there are much better carry guns. I was just mentioning that revolvers are nor obsolete and for many people they may very well the best carry gun.

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Big Bird (05-17-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> I'm beginning to believe you are simply clueless. I carry (and practice with) a multitude of guns. Unlike your silly claim of needing a jacket and some other outer garment,  I carry a specific firearm depending on the situation I may encounter and the clothing I'll be wearing for the day. Jackets on 90 degree days? You sound foolish. 
> 
>  I spend a considerable amount of time in wilderness areas where the animals don't care what I carry. I purposely purchased a Glock 20 for bears. I get a super reliable pistol and have a laser/light combo for it. When i'm on the motorcycle I carry a Glock 43 in the vest pocket. For normal everyday carry I'll have either a Kimber 1911 or a Glock 19 or 23. At times I'll carry my Charter Arms .44spl. I carry a multitude of firearms...usually for specific purposes and expectations.
> 
>  Many folks can't handle a 10mm. I can...no problems. I have it in the Glock platform and had a Colt Delta Elite.....wish I would have kept that one.
> 
>  There is no ONE best gun. You won't find many women carrying a 10mm or a .45 acp for that matter.
> 
>  You should stop all the ridiculous blather. Your opinion as absolute fact is laughable.


The 9x19 is the perfect cartridge for a woman.

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## Quark

> If you are allowed to carry it openly in your state and you don't mind being gawked at, sure, no problem -- other than you only have 6 rounds to use before you reload.
> 
> The 10 and 14 round mags with the various pistols way outclass any revolver in terms of ammo loaded into the gun.


In self defense who needs 10 to 14 round mags or to carry 50 spare rounds. My .380 has an eight round mag and I carry one spare mag just in case but I would not feel in bad shape if I carried a revolver with six rounds and a back up speed loader with an additional six rounds. Of course, I don't live in a war zone for if I did I would just carry an assault rifle or shotgun maybe even a machine pistol.

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Big Bird (05-17-2016)

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## Rickity Plumber

> Not if you are outgunned by a superior gun.
> 
> The pistols are ideal for self defense.  Always have been.  Always will be.
> 
> The best pistols are the 9x19, the 10mm, or the 45ACP.
> 
> The revolvers are obsolete.  The big revolvers are especially obsolete.


Now, there gain you end up talking two different scenarios that you yourself spelled out. One was *self defense in public* and the other was *a gun fight* (yeah, a gunfight). 

Again, which scenario are you talking about? They are as different as night and day.

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Quark (05-18-2016)

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## John123

> Now, there gain you end up talking two different scenarios that you yourself spelled out. One was *self defense in public* and the other was *a gun fight* (yeah, a gunfight). 
> 
> Again, which scenario are you talking about? They are as different as night and day.


Unless you're in Chicago or Detroit, the chances of being in a gun fight are very low. If multiple people are shooting at you, your best option is probably just to find cover. If you're in a gunfight, you have a much higher chance of killing someone who's innocent with a bad shot/deflection than killing the person that you're shooting at.

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Quark (05-18-2016),Rickity Plumber (05-18-2016)

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## Kodiak

> The 9x19 is the perfect cartridge for a woman.


....and the Navy Seals among others.

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## Jim Rockford

> ....and the Navy Seals among others.


 Army with the M9/92fs ,the Marines G19, Police G17, FBI various 9mm ect.

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## usfan

> Army with the M9/92fs ,the Marines G19, Police G17, FBI various 9mm ect.


There is no doubt that the 9mm luger is a very effective cartridge for both military & police applications.  It is THE caliber of choice for most of those throughout the world.

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Jim Rockford (05-18-2016)

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## Quark

> Now, there gain you end up talking two different scenarios that you yourself spelled out. One was *self defense in public* and the other was *a gun fight* (yeah, a gunfight). 
> 
> Again, which scenario are you talking about? They are as different as night and day.


That's the real problem right there; identifying *self defense* from a *gun fight*.

As a civilian I avoid gun fights and in Montana the chance of ever being in a gun fight is slim to none at all. Heck, a sword cane would work just as well probably for self defense around here.

Police and soldiers get into gun fights not civilians. If I know I'm going into a gun/fire fight I'm taking some else besides a handgun of any caliber. A shotgun, machine pistol and hand grenades for close quarter fighting. A assault rifle or battle rifle and hand grenades for medium to long range fighting. It sure as heck won't be a freakin handgun.

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Rickity Plumber (05-18-2016)

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## teeceetx

> Wrong.  Many states allow open carry.  You just have to use your head when to do it.


Ahem...... Open carry is legal in TX as of 1/1/16.  You do need a carry license though.

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## Kodiak

> Ahem...... Open carry is legal in TX as of 1/1/16.  You do need a carry license though.


We realize that, the graph is from 2014.  It was posted to show sandhurstdelta had no clue what he was talking about.  It was surprising to me that Texas could not open carry until this year though.

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> Not if you are outgunned by a superior gun.
> 
> The pistols are ideal for self defense.  Always have been.  Always will be.
> 
> The best pistols are the 9x19, the 10mm, or the 45ACP.
> 
> The revolvers are obsolete.  The big revolvers are especially obsolete.


  Frances GIGN uses the Manurhin .357 Magnum Revolver.

  Navy SEALs started out with a Smith & Wesson Model 66 in .357 ( Ive got the reference book somewhere )

  Hundreds of men and women in America carry a "J" Frame revolver.

 I would not feel under gunned with a revolver, Unless I was in New York or Detroit.


          :Joe

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> ................The .357 is no slouch by any stretch.


 And an EXCELLENT self defense round that is flat shooting and puts energy on target. I love a .357 Magnum, and always have since my dad had a three screw - Ruger Black Hawk with a 7 - 71/2 inch barrel.


     : Joe

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> Any .44 mag will shoot .44 Specials. The lighter weight .44mag revolvers would do very well and last a long time shooting .44 Special loads for most applications with the .44 mag saved for those special needs..


  The .44 SPL is that one round that puts energy on target without a lot of recoil and less muzzle blast than the Magnum.


        : Joe

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MedicineBow (05-19-2016),Quark (05-19-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> The .44 SPL is that one round that puts energy on target without a lot of recoil and less muzzle blast than the Magnum.
> 
> 
>         : Joe

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## Sheldonna

> Since when was open carry legal in California?  LASD will gun you down in minutes *if you try to open carry. Your millions of libtard neighbors will have called 9-11 by the time you get to your mail box*.
> 
> You are digging in deeper and deeper in every thread.
> 
> The answer is not some specific caliber or make and model. The answer is always , the one you have on you.


It is perfectly legal to 'open carry' on your own property in Texas, even without an open-carry weapons license.  So not the case in the lands of the fruits & nuts, eh?  Sad, that.

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## tiny1

Well, I don't carry.  Open or concealed.  I live in a small country town, and not much to worry about.  I do have my Smith .40 compact in my truck tool box, locked up.
My favorite home protection weapon is my Ithaca 12 ga.  Nothing breeds fear in a punk quicker than the sound of a shotgun breeching a shell.

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Quark (05-19-2016),Rickity Plumber (05-19-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> Well, I don't carry.  Open or concealed.  I live in a small country town, and not much to worry about.  I do have my Smith .40 compact in my truck tool box, locked up.
> My favorite home protection weapon is my Ithaca 12 ga.  Nothing breeds fear in a punk quicker than the sound of a shotgun breeching a shell.


The semi-auto SG in my home is loaded. The punk won't hear the cross bolt safety and won't hear no pumping noise to zero in on my location. Not going to play John Wayne a say here it is boys ( rack the slide) , who wants some.

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> ....... lands of the fruits & nuts, eh?


  Funny.


  : Joe

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## Quark

> The .44 SPL is that one round that puts energy on target without a lot of recoil and less muzzle blast than the Magnum.
> 
> 
>         : Joe


It's a great round. I wish American companies would produce revolvers, especially double action revolvers, in that round.

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## tiny1

> The semi-auto SG in my home is loaded. The punk won't hear the cross bolt safety and won't hear no pumping noise to zero in on my location. Not going to play John Wayne a say here it is boys ( rack the slide) , who wants some.


Oh, trust me, when they hear that sound, I'll already be pointing it at 'em.  I would really love to watch a thug criminal wet his drawers.

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## Jim Rockford

> Oh, trust me, when they hear that sound, I'll already be pointing it at 'em.  I would really love to watch a thug criminal wet his drawers.


Or you get shot mid-pump. I'll take my way every time.

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## Sheldonna

> Funny.
> 
> 
>   : Joe


I have relatives in LA....

so I speak from personal experience...lol.

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## tiny1

> Or you get shot mid-pump. I'll take my way every time.


Nope.  
First, no one gets on my 3 acres without tripping a perimeter alarm, driveway sensor, or motion detector.  You may be viewed by any of the 3 cameras on the site.   I'll know who's there and how many, before they can get close.
Second, no one gets to my house without upsetting my 145 pound Rottweiler.     
Third, I am quick for an old guy.  I sit on my back deck,  in sight of my veggie garden.  Occasionally, a squirrel thinks it may be wise to grab a bit of corn on the cob.  Now, if you ever hunted squirrel, the sound of the safety will send them running.  I have hit quite a few, on the run.
I worked twelve years guarding spoiled millionaires and was only shot once, by someone I underestimated and turned my back on.  Nah, I won't be shot mid pump.

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Quark (05-20-2016)

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## MedicineBow

> It's a great round. I wish American companies would produce revolvers, especially double action revolvers, in that round.


  I have the Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 spcl. I carry it on occasion.

Bulldog | Charter Arms

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## Rickity Plumber

> The semi-auto SG in my home is loaded. The punk won't hear the cross bolt safety and won't hear no pumping noise to zero in on my location. Not going to play John Wayne a say here it is boys ( rack the slide) , who wants some.


Duke Nukem used to say, "Come get some". I miss a good shooter video game. When he would go into a titty bar in Pigville and blast the "dancers", they would turn into pigs. As long as you did not shoot the titty dancers you were fine.

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Jim Rockford (05-19-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> Duke Nukem used to say, "Come get some". I miss a good shooter video game. When he would go into a titty bar in Pigville and blast the "dancers", they would turn into pigs. As long as you did not shoot the titty dancers you were fine.


Duke Nukem had a good voice actor.



This is what I was thinking of.

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Rickity Plumber (05-20-2016)

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## Joe Hallenbeck

A 17 minute video.   H&K USP Compact.







  About three minutes of viewing : Sig Sauer - P229 .40





        : Joe

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## Quark

> Nope.  
> First, no one gets on my 3 acres without tripping a perimeter alarm, driveway sensor, or motion detector.  You may be viewed by any of the 3 cameras on the site.   I'll know who's there and how many, before they can get close.
> Second, no one gets to my house without upsetting my 145 pound Rottweiler.     
> Third, I am quick for an old guy.  I sit on my back deck,  in sight of my veggie garden.  Occasionally, a squirrel thinks it may be wise to grab a bit of corn on the cob.  Now, if you ever hunted squirrel, the sound of the safety will send them running.  I have hit quite a few, on the run.
> I worked twelve years guarding spoiled millionaires and was only shot once, by someone I underestimated and turned my back on.  Nah, I won't be shot mid pump.


I bet you even have mortars zeroed in on your three acres.  :Headbang:

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## Quark

> I have the Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 spcl. I carry it on occasion.
> 
> Bulldog | Charter Arms


Far as I know of that is the only specific made .44 Special. Is it a good pistol?

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## Rutabaga

the best gun to have is the one in your hand....

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## Rutabaga

> Far as I know of that is the only specific made .44 Special. Is it a good pistol?



its not a pistol...

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Kodiak (05-20-2016),Quark (05-20-2016)

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## MedicineBow

> Far as I know of that is the only specific made .44 Special. Is it a good pistol?


 It's an OK revolver. It does the job, but the quality is certainly not "high" by most measures. It is reliable and functional. The trigger isn't the best and you can see some tooling marks. Still, it functions just fine and is available at a decent price. Had the hammer not snagged on my riding vest pocket I would have kept it as my carry gun when I wore my leather vest. I ended up getting a Glock 43 to fit in the pocket of the vest.

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Quark (05-20-2016)

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## Quark

> its not a pistol...


You are absolutely right! I deserve a 1,000 whacks with a wet noodle by a good looking dominatrix.  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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Rutabaga (05-20-2016)

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## Rutabaga

> You are absolutely right! I deserve a 1,000 whacks with a wet noodle by a good looking dominatrix.



pistol=semi-auto handgun
wheel gun=revolver

any excuse is good enough for me! :Cool20:

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## Quark

It's interesting to note that before the invention of the semi-auto pistol revolvers were referred to as pistols. Even single shot muzzle loading handguns were referred to as pistols i.e. dueling pistols.

Think the Old West pistolero i.e gunman, hired killer, bandit, etc.

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