# Stuff and Things > Guns and Self Defense >  Some say- GLOCKS SUCK! Well- lets see some "High-Mileage" examples and common Glock p

## Jim Rockford



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hoytmonger (04-29-2016),michaelr (04-29-2016)

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## hoytmonger

Get a Hk...




> The claims of durability are not simply advertising hype. As part of the  SOCOM OHWS program, the Mk. 23 was subjected to 30,000 rounds of +P,  followed by 6,000 proof rounds of even higher pressure. The pistol took  all this without damage or excess wear. Further, the pistol was function  tested at temperatures of -40ºF and +150ºF. It kept on functioning  through mud, sand, dust, rain, and salt water. It was dropped six feet  onto concrete, landing on the hammer. The gun did not go off. The gun  withstood firing through a barrel obstruction and kept on working.


[FIREARM REVIEW] The Heckler  Concealed Nation

Their quality can't be beat.

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## Kodiak

I'm not a "fanboy", but have had several Glocks, never a problem with any of them except a G42 that occasionally has an FTF.  From what I read most that have had issues are due to poor hand loads or just plain wore out from thousands and thousands of rounds.  But, I'm not one to put 10k rounds per year through one.  If I did, I would expect to replace it eventually from fatigue.  It's just common sense.

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Captain Kirk! (04-29-2016),DonGlock26 (04-29-2016)

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## Kodiak

> Get a Hk...
> 
> 
> 
> [FIREARM REVIEW] The Heckler  Concealed Nation
> 
> Their quality can't be beat.


I always get a kick out of the "get a Sig or Hk" responses.  They run $300-$400 more than a Glock, so not quite a fair comparison.  Besides that, probably my favorite in the safe is my HK P30.   :Thumbsup20:

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## Jim Rockford

> Get a Hk...
> 
> 
> 
> [FIREARM REVIEW] The Heckler  Concealed Nation
> 
> Their quality can't be beat.


This concerns me about the VP9

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hoytmonger (04-29-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> I'm not a "fanboy", but have had several Glocks, never a problem with any of them except a G42 that occasionally has an FTF.  From what I read most that have had issues are due to poor hand loads or just plain wore out from thousands and thousands of rounds.  But, I'm not one to put 10k rounds per year through one.  If I did, I would expect to replace it eventually from fatigue.  It's just common sense.


 The Volkswagon Bug is a good Glock comparison. It goes from A to B just like any other car. Is it expensive or stylish, No. Does it make people ooh and ahh, never. It still drives after regular maintainance and driving with in its parameters for ludacris miles and years. It is affordable and not complex. A novice can drive it and not be confused by all the bells and whistles that are pure luxury.

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## Common

I personally dislike glocks and wont own one. Their entire claim to fame was Law Enforcement Opting for them in the 80s and 90s. The only reason Law Enforcement bought glocks is because they were CHEAP. Glock offered Huge discounts to LE angencies, offers they couldnt refuse

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## hoytmonger

> This concerns me about the VP9


Yes, that is an interesting video... and somewhat disappointing.

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## Jim Rockford

> Yes, that is an interesting video... and somewhat disappointing.


MACs new EDC is not a affordable carry for most. This is where the volkswagonish Glock works for the majority.

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> 


 Video does not make sense.....UNLESS someone intentionally done the damage, OR used impropper ammo.


  :Joe

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## Jim Rockford

> Video does not make sense.....UNLESS someone intentionally done the damage, OR used impropper ammo.
> 
> 
>   :Joe


These are extremely high mileage breaks. Thinking around 100,000 rounds or more. If there ever was a defect in a Glock, you would look to these weakest areas first.

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## Old Navy

For concealed carry, because of weight, the Glock is as good as any of them.  But if you shoot a lot, buy a Bersa. They're better made, cheaper, and they're not made out of plastic.

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## DonGlock26

The end of the video points out that the pistols have all had over 200,000 rounds ($30,000 worth of ammo) put through them. 
Most other pistols would give up the ghost well before that. I wonder, if the recoil springs were ever replaced?

All pistols have their weaknesses. Glocks are extremely durable, affordable, and simple.
I like that they are easy to work on and there is a huge amount of aftermarket support.

I'm a Glock and Sig Sauer armorer, if anyone has any questions.

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## DonGlock26

> I always get a kick out of the "get a Sig or Hk" responses.  They run $300-$400 more than a Glock, so not quite a fair comparison.  Besides that, probably my favorite in the safe is my HK P30.


The problem with Sigs are two fold. First, the classic P226/229/228 series have slides that run on aluminum frame rails. 
Those aluminum frames can crack and the rails will wear out. They also have a trigger bar spring under the right
grip panel that will disable the weapon, if the spring breaks, the grips screws come loose, or the spring is put on incorrectly.
I had one break on me in a high round firearms instructor course. Sig did change the spring design with a more reliable one.

H&K's have a good reputation for reliability. I had a P2000 .40S&W, but I could not warm up to the LEM trigger.

The truth is that the service pistol manufacturers have all given up on hammer designs and are producing their
own striker-fired designs that closely mimic the Glock pistol.

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Kodiak (04-29-2016)

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## Kodiak

> I'm a Glock and Sig Sauer armorer, if anyone has any questions.


That's good to know Don.  Next time I take the G42 out and it gives me trouble, I'll get in touch.   It feeds most stuff reliably, but does not like PPU at all.  I don't use it for self protection because it is not 100% reliable.   Mainly got it for the wife to learn to shoot with.

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DonGlock26 (04-29-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> That's good to know Don.  Next time I take the G42 out and it gives me trouble, I'll get in touch.   It feeds most stuff reliably, but does not like PPU at all.  I don't use it for self protection because it is not 100% reliable.   Mainly got it for the wife to learn to shoot with.


Anytime, my friend.

I have a G43. I also have a Kahr PM9 which is 9mm and a little smaller.

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MedicineBow (04-29-2016)

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## Big Country Politix

Attachment 14569

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Captain Kirk! (04-29-2016),Quark (04-29-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> Attachment 14569


Let the SEALs, Delta Force, and the Marines know their Glocks aren't cool with the suspenders and trifocals crowd.  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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Quark (04-29-2016)

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## Kodiak

> Anytime, my friend.
> 
> I have a G43. I also have a Kahr PM9 which is 9mm and a little smaller.


I have a CM9 which I can't run with self defense loads.  I have tried 2 or 3 brands, Hornady and PDX1 I believe and all FTF.  All ball ammo runs fine. Any ideas @DonGlock26 ?  The feed ramp looks highly polished.

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## DonGlock26

Kahr recommends a break-in period of 200 rounds. Did you fire 200 rounds of FMJ ammo yet?
The seven round magazines are not as reliable as the standard 6 round magazines.
Does that happen with more than one magazine? I'd try a second 6 round magazine.

Here's some break-in info:
Proper prep of a new kahr

I'd leave the slide locked back for a few days as well.

If all that doesn't work, send it back to Kahr.

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Kodiak (04-29-2016)

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## Common

> For concealed carry, because of weight, the Glock is as good as any of them.  But if you shoot a lot, buy a Bersa. They're better made, cheaper, and they're not made out of plastic.


  Any single stack Polymer will be as light. The main selling point for glock originally was their polymer build and lightness. Almost everyone makes polymers now.

            Hk, Sig, FNH, Beretta, Springfield arms etc all m ake polymers and all are as good as glocks or better just mho

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## Big Country Politix

> Let the SEALs, Delta Force, and the Marines know their Glocks aren't cool with the suspenders and trifocals crowd.


Well somebody is sensitive. Plenty of people still carry 1911s in the military and civilian world. Yall just like glocks because they are dummy proof lol

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sandhurstdelta (04-29-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> I always get a kick out of the "get a Sig or Hk" responses.  They run $300-$400 more than a Glock, so not quite a fair comparison.  Besides that, probably my favorite in the safe is my HK P30.


Anyone who can afford it should definitely get a SIG, but not a glock-clone SIG.

Everybody makes glock-clones these days.

And if you cannot afford anything better than a Glock is better than nothing.

You don't know when the Glock is going to jam or break though, so you better get 2 Glocks and don't shoot the 2nd one until the 1st one breaks.

Q.E.D.

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## sandhurstdelta

> Well somebody is sensitive. Plenty of people still carry 1911s in the military and civilian world. Yall just like glocks because they are dummy proof lol


Yup the 1911A1 is probably the best pistol ever designed or made.

Modern versions of the design by SIG and CZ have double AND single action triggers.

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Big Country Politix (04-29-2016)

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## Captain Kirk!

My 1911 is like a death ray. Point, click, dayyyummmm!  :Smile:

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DonGlock26 (04-29-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

> Any single stack Polymer will be as light. The main selling point for glock originally was their polymer build and lightness. Almost everyone makes polymers now.
> 
>             Hk, Sig, FNH, Beretta, Springfield arms etc all m ake polymers and all are as good as glocks or better just mho


Cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap.

That's the main selling point of the Glocks.

Always has been.

Always will be.

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## Kodiak

> Any single stack Polymer will be as light. The main selling point for glock originally was their polymer build and lightness. Almost everyone makes polymers now.
> 
>             Hk, Sig, FNH, Beretta, Springfield arms etc all m ake polymers and all are as good as glocks or better just mho


Yes they do, and I have owned most of them with my latest being a Sig P320 which I have yet to fire.  But since Glock was the first, they are all basically copycats, and I'm not saying that as a bad thing.   I like the lighter polymer guns because most are striker fired, every shot is the same.

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## Kodiak

> Anyone who can afford it should definitely get a SIG, but not a glock-clone SIG.
> 
> Everybody makes glock-clones these days.
> 
> And if you cannot afford anything better than a Glock is better than nothing.
> 
> You don't know when the Glock is going to jam or break though, so you better get 2 Glocks and don't shoot the 2nd one until the 1st one breaks.
> 
> Q.E.D.


I got a Sig p226 because of all the hype.  Being a lefty I HATED it with that stupid big ass de-cocker on the wrong side of the gun. Traded it for an M&P Performance Center ported 9mm.  :Thumbsup20:

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DonGlock26 (04-29-2016)

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## MedicineBow

> Anytime, my friend.
> 
> I have a G43. I also have a Kahr PM9 which is 9mm and a little smaller.


 I also have the G43 and do like it. It slips in my Harley vest quite well.

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DonGlock26 (04-29-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> Well somebody is sensitive. Plenty of people still carry 1911s in the military and civilian world. Yall just like glocks because they are dummy proof lol


Not really, just joshing.  :Wink: 

We couldn't carry our 1911's cocked and locked in the Army. Too many accidents.

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Big Country Politix (04-29-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> Anyone who can afford it should definitely get a SIG, but not a glock-clone SIG.
> 
> Everybody makes glock-clones these days.
> 
> And if you cannot afford anything better than a Glock is better than nothing.
> 
> You don't know when the Glock is going to jam or break though, so you better get 2 Glocks and don't shoot the 2nd one until the 1st one breaks.
> 
> Q.E.D.



 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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Kodiak (04-29-2016)

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## DonGlock26

The amusing thing about this thread is that Gaston Glock didn't invent the polymer frame handgun. H&K did. 
Glock didn't invent the striker-fired mechanism either. He just took those advances and
melded them together with his manufacturing know-how into a simpler and more efficient
mousetrap.

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Kodiak (04-29-2016)

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## Kodiak

> The amusing thing about this thread is that Gaston Glock didn't invent the polymer frame handgun. H&K did. 
> Glock didn't invent the striker-fired mechanism either. He just took those advances and
> melded them together with his manufacturing know-how into a simpler and more efficient
> mousetrap.


I had totally forgot about the early HK's.  I stand corrected as Glock being the first.  :Geez:

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DonGlock26 (04-29-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> The amusing thing about this thread is that Gaston Glock didn't invent the polymer frame handgun. H&K did. 
> Glock didn't invent the striker-fired mechanism either. He just took those advances and
> melded them together with his manufacturing know-how into a simpler and more efficient
> mousetrap.


 The fewest parts possible to get the desired effect. Have to conclude that this is a major part of the reliability that Glocks have. 34 parts in a Gen 4 is not much to go wrong.

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## Kodiak

> Kahr recommends a break-in period of 200 rounds. Did you fire 200 rounds of FMJ ammo yet?
> The seven round magazines are not as reliable as the standard 6 round magazines.
> Does that happen with more than one magazine? I'd try a second 6 round magazine.
> 
> Here's some break-in info:
> Proper prep of a new kahr
> 
> I'd leave the slide locked back for a few days as well.
> 
> If all that doesn't work, send it back to Kahr.


This one has around 500 rounds through it according to the original owner, plus numerous nights sitting and racking the slide by me.  It's been a while since I have fired it, but I believe both mags did it.   Thanks for the link, I will check it out.

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DonGlock26 (04-29-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> The fewest parts possible to get the desired effect. Have to conclude that this is a major part of the reliability that Glocks have. 34 parts in a Gen 4 is not much to go wrong.


Exactly.

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## Someguy

That looks like a plated bullet, with the leading edge of the bullet collapsing like that.  I'd suggest that you try Remington Golden Saber, which has a brass jacket.  It would be more likely to ride up and straighten out with no damage to the bullet.




> I have a CM9 which I can't run with self defense loads.  I have tried 2 or 3 brands, Hornady and PDX1 I believe and all FTF.  All ball ammo runs fine. Any ideas @DonGlock26 ?  The feed ramp looks highly polished.

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## Someguy

> Anyone who can afford it should definitely get a SIG, but not a glock-clone SIG.
> 
> Everybody makes glock-clones these days.
> 
> And if you cannot afford anything better than a Glock is better than nothing.
> 
> You don't know when the Glock is going to jam or break though, so you better get 2 Glocks and don't shoot the 2nd one until the 1st one breaks.
> 
> Q.E.D.


It's troubling to have to relate the TRUTH to those who claim to know it.  The SHOT show happens every year here in Vegas.  I think it was the 2014 show when a Glock rep presented a Gen. 4 mod. 17 to a gun writer with a credit card for ammo, and instructions to try to shoot it to death.  Give it and the credit card to the next guy on the list when you give up trying to kill it.  Don't clean or oil it.  
The gun went through the list of gun guys and came back for the 2015 show.  It had over 54,000 rounds through it, and printed more accurately @ 25 yards than when it was new.  Thorough examination revealed that there was zero indication of wear or stress.
Just for the record, when the first XD 9's were sent to market, the inevitable torture tests found that slides were cracking on them right at the 54,000 round mark.
If you buy 2 Glocks with the intent of replacing the first with the second when the first is worn out, you'll have to tell your great grand son to carry them in his will.
There are people who just plain don't like Glocks, and can't find a reason why.

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DonGlock26 (04-30-2016)

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## Quark

> Let the SEALs, Delta Force, and the Marines know their Glocks aren't cool with the suspenders and trifocals crowd.


How did you know?  :Smiley ROFLMAO:  Hear! Hear! For the 1911.

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## sandhurstdelta

> This one has around 500 rounds through it according to the original owner, plus numerous nights sitting and racking the slide by me.  It's been a while since I have fired it, but I believe both mags did it.   Thanks for the link, I will check it out.


500 rounds ... jeeze ... that only one tactical training class.

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## Green Lion

> 


Glock's terrible grip angle is why the brand sucks. Glock's lack of a thumb saftey is a close second why the brand sucks.

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## Green Lion

> I always get a kick out of the "get a Sig or Hk" responses.  They run $300-$400 more than a Glock, so not quite a fair comparison.  Besides that, probably my favorite in the safe is my HK P30.


Given that the Sig p320 compact, for example, has an MSRP of $600, and the comperable Glock is the Glock19, which also has an MSRP of $600, where are you finding Glock19s $200-$300?

If I found a new Glock19 for $200, as you claim to finde, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

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## DonGlock26

> That looks like a plated bullet, with the leading edge of the bullet collapsing like that.  I'd suggest that you try Remington Golden Saber, which has a brass jacket.  It would be more likely to ride up and straighten out with no damage to the bullet.


That high upward angle makes me think that it is some type of magazine issue. The magazine could have lips that are too wide, a bad follower, 
the mag spring could be installed upside down, it could a pro-mag aftermarket mag, etc.

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## Jim Rockford

> Given that the Sig p320 compact, for example, has an MSRP of $600, and the comperable Glock is the Glock19, which also has an MSRP of $600, where are you finding Glock19s $200-$300?
> 
> If I found a new Glock19 for $200, as you claim to finde, I would buy it in a heartbeat.


 gen 4 G19 sells for $499. The sig 229 sells for $899 on sale, reg price $1,099. So the sig is at least $400 more not including the double the tax paid, or the more expensive magazines , holsters and sights mods. Then the life span of Glocks steel slide on steel rails (which can be changed out in a minor step if needed) vs. the sigs steel slide on aluminum rails , the Glock will last much much longer. So which is a better bargain when each sends lead down range equally?

sig sale
SIG Sauer P229 Handgun-415979 - Gander Mountain


g19 are in high demand
GLOCK-19-GEN-4 For Sale - Current Best GLOCK-19-GEN-4 Deal | GUNWATCHER

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## Green Lion

> gen 4 G19 sells for $499. The sig 229 sells for $899 on sale, reg price $1,099. So the sig is at least $400 more not including the double the tax paid, or the more expensive magazines , holsters and sights mods. Then the life span of Glocks steel slide on steel rails (which can be changed out in a minor step if needed) vs. the sigs steel slide on aluminum rails , the Glock will last much much longer. So which is a better bargain when each sends lead down range equally?
> 
> sig sale
> SIG Sauer P229 Handgun-415979 - Gander Mountain
> 
> 
> g19 are in high demand
> GLOCK-19-GEN-4 For Sale - Current Best GLOCK-19-GEN-4 Deal | GUNWATCHER


Your own link shows 6 different sig 229  models, one of which is $499, just like the gen4 G19.

Glock doesn't make a hammer fired pistol for the sig229 to be comperable anyway. Striker fired, no manual safties, same exact optional features, same caliber, capacity, and frame are the only valid comparisons.

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## Jim Rockford

> Your own link shows 6 different sig 229  models, one of which is $499, just like the gen4 G19.
> 
> Glock doesn't make a hammer fired pistol for the sig229 to be comperable anyway. Striker fired, no manual safties, same exact optional features, same caliber, capacity, and frame are the only valid comparisons.


 All that junk on the sig is unnecessary to make the same bullet fly down range. Yep not comparable. Simple is better when it comes to mechanics. 

 The sig sounds like the Panzer Tiger debacle of complexity.

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DonGlock26 (05-01-2016)

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## Green Lion

> All that junk on the sig is unnecessary to make the same bullet fly down range. Yep not comparable. Simple is better when it comes to mechanics. 
> 
>  The sig sounds like the Panzer Tiger debacle of complexity.


Sig just has your basic parts. Remember that what I brought up was Glocks terrible grip angle, not Glocks internals. If Glock would just fix the design flaw of it's grip then they would have a good product.

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## hoytmonger

I've spent more money on my bows than I did my Hk's. 

Settling for an inferior firearm like a Glock seems counterintuitive.

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## Kodiak

> Given that the Sig p320 compact, for example, has an MSRP of $600, and the comperable Glock is the Glock19, which also has an MSRP of $600, where are you finding Glock19s $200-$300?
> 
> If I found a new Glock19 for $200, as you claim to finde, I would buy it in a heartbeat.


When a Glock hater says something like, "get a Sig" or "get an HK",  you can be fairly sure they are not talking about a p320. The poster Sandhurstdelta, does not like striker fired polymer guns.  So, it's safe to assume he is referring to all metal p229's, 226's, etc.   BTW, I have a p320 so am well aware of their prices, also have a G19 Gen4.

Oh, and where did I claim to find a new G19 for $200?   :Dontknow:

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## Green Lion

> When a Glock hater says something like, "get a Sig" or "get an HK",  you can be fairly sure they are not talking about a p320. The poster Sandhurstdelta, does not like striker fired polymer guns.  So, it's safe to assume he is referring to all metal p229's, 226's, etc.   BTW, I have a p320 so am well aware of their prices, also have a G19 Gen4.
> 
> Oh, and where did I claim to find a new G19 for $200?


The p320c is the Sig I own. I'll let other Sig owners speak for themselves.

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## Green Lion

> Oh, and where did I claim to find a new G19 for $200?


Post #4.

QUOTE=Kodiak;982905]I always get a kick out of the "get a Sig or Hk" responses.  They run $300-$400 more than a Glock, so not quite a fair comparison.[/QUOTE]
Sig p320c MSRP is $600.

$600 - "$300-$400" = $200 to $300.

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## Kodiak

> The p320c is the Sig I own. I'll let other Sig owners speak for themselves.


My point was, if someone says get a Sig, they darn sure aren't talking about a Glock clone.

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Jim Rockford (04-30-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> Sig just has your basic parts. Remember that what I brought up was Glocks terrible grip angle, not Glocks internals. If Glock would just fix the design flaw of it's grip then they would have a good product.


 that is a personal problem not a design flaw.

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Kodiak (04-30-2016),Someguy (04-30-2016)

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## Green Lion

> that is a personal problem not a design flaw.


It's a design flaw not a personal problem. One of the ways that Sig is superior to Glock is Sig's ability to adjust to it's wielder. Glock can't do that.

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## Jim Rockford

> It's a design flaw not a personal problem. One of the ways that Sig is superior to Glock is Sig's ability to adjust to it's wielder. Glock can't do that.


Gen 4 grip inserts do just that.

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## Green Lion

> My point was, if someone says get a Sig, they darn sure aren't talking about a Glock clone.


There's no such thing as a "Glock clone" so of course that's not what they're saying.

Maybe you don't know what a "clone" in the gun world is; or you know of a Glock with a removable fire control.

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## Green Lion

> Gen 4 grip inserts do just that.


Grip inserts do not change the firearm from sub-compact to full size, nor do grip inserts change the gun's caliber. Try again.

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## Kodiak

> There's no such thing as a "Glock clone" so of course that's not what they're saying.
> 
> Maybe you don't know what a "clone" in the gun world is; or you know of a Glock with a removable fire control.


"Clone" referring to striker fired polymer handguns.   I guess some just like to argue for the sake of argument.  I'm done.

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## Jim Rockford

> There's no such thing as a "Glock clone" so of course that's not what they're saying.
> 
> Maybe you don't know what a "clone" in the gun world is; or you know of a Glock with a removable fire control.


 smith and Wesson pay royalties to Glock for their clone. And diamondback guns are clones as well. There are others.

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## Green Lion

> "Clone" referring to striker fired polymer handguns.   I guess some just like to argue for the sake of argument.  I'm done.


H&K made the first striker fired polymer pistol, not Glock.

I wasn't aware Glock made a gun with a removable fire control. Which model of Glock is the Sig 320 a clone of?

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## Rickity Plumber

I always like watching this crazy guy. Here he puts a Glock through some insane torture tests.

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Jim Rockford (04-30-2016)

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## sandhurstdelta

That's not a very useful carry method.

It almost looks like he cannot afford a good $50 leather holster or even an el cheapo $15 one.

By the time he gets his gun out cross mounted I can have outdrawn him from either open carry with my G/I issued holster or from concealment with my pancake holster.

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## Rickity Plumber

> That's not a very useful carry method.
> 
> It almost looks like he cannot afford a good $50 leather holster or even an el cheapo $15 one.


This guy can afford every weapon system known to the US Army and he does. I am glad he is a good ol boy from Georgia and on our side.

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Jim Rockford (04-30-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> That's not a very useful carry method.
> 
> It almost looks like he cannot afford a good $50 leather holster or even an el cheapo $15 one.
> 
> By the time he gets his gun out cross mounted I can have outdrawn him from either open carry with my G/I issued holster or from concealment with my pancake holster.


 With the gun in the 3 o-clock regular draw style, can you use your off hand to draw if your strong arm were injured? No you can't . If you were at 3o-clock cross draw and you needed the off hand to draw you could. How well is your tactical training gone into fighting one armed?

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Rickity Plumber (04-30-2016)

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## Someguy

As for the grip angle of Glock.  Where I think this is best tested is in fast point shooting drills.
I do that with my 26 and 19.  With the 26, I can get the first 3 shots off in just about a second.  Firing at something like a 1 gal. orange juice jug, the first 2 shots connect, with the third one going very close.
Moving to the 19, it seems to me that the third shot is pretty pointless.  The gun is just bigger enough to slow my recovery from shot 2 to shot 3.  Still, those 2 shots are pretty accurate, at close range.
This kind of foolin' around would not be possible unless I found the guns to be good natural pointers.
When I try point shooting with the 17, I find that the whole gun is a bit hard to control for fast action like that.  I call the effect "slide inertia", because it feels like the slide moves a lot slower, and causes more movement in the gun.  With the 17, the drill changes, so that my first shot is an unaimed point shot, as I draw the gun up to acquire the sights.  Same with the 17L.
It makes all the difference in the world if you only train with one platform, as I do.  If you try to move from one grip angle to another, you only serve to confuse your muscle coordination.

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Green Lion (05-01-2016)

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## Green Lion

> Moving to the 19, it seems to me that the third shot is pretty pointless.  The gun is just bigger enough to slow my recovery from shot 2 to shot 3.  Still, those 2 shots are pretty accurate, at close range.
> This kind of foolin' around would not be possible unless I found the guns to be good natural pointers.


I'm uncertain of this forum's policy on posting graphic content so I won't link to it, but on BlueLivesMatter on Facebook they posted bodycam footage of police serving an arrest warrant. The suspect refused to go quietly and came out pointing a handgun at the officers. The officer the video came from had his service Glock out (I couldn't make out the exact model), and fired 4 shots inside of a second, all 4 hitting the suspect.

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## sandhurstdelta

> This guy can afford every weapon system known to the US Army and he does. I am glad he is a good ol boy from Georgia and on our side.


"ARMY" = Aren't Ready (for) Marines Yet.

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## sandhurstdelta

> With the gun in the 3 o-clock regular draw style, can you use your off hand to draw if your strong arm were injured? No you can't . If you were at 3o-clock cross draw and you needed the off hand to draw you could. How well is your tactical training gone into fighting one armed?


If your strong arm were/is injured you just reach across.

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Green Lion (05-01-2016)

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## Green Lion

> smith and Wesson pay royalties to Glock for their clone. And diamondback guns are clones as well. There are others.


For which gun does Sig pay royslties to Glock?

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## sandhurstdelta

> 


Finding Of Fact: Glocks suck.

Some say Glocks suck -- those are the SMART ones.

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## Green Lion

> "ARMY" = Aren't Ready (for) Marines Yet.


"Marine" = My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment.

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Rickity Plumber (05-01-2016)

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## Jim Rockford

> If your strong arm were/is injured you just reach across.


 Thanks for proving you know jack shit. Good night .

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Kodiak (05-01-2016)

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## Green Lion

> With the gun in the 3 o-clock regular draw style, can you use your off hand to draw if your strong arm were injured? No you can't .


Yes I can, I'm doing it right this very second as I write this post. Maybe you have a medical condition limiting your range of motion.

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## Rickity Plumber

> "ARMY" = Aren't Ready (for) Marines Yet.


But let's not take anything away from those in any branch who enlisted and served in honor of their country to defend freedom. 


 3rd Armored Division

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DonGlock26 (05-01-2016),Jim Rockford (05-01-2016),Kodiak (05-01-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> Sig just has your basic parts. Remember that what I brought up was Glocks terrible grip angle, not Glocks internals. If Glock would just fix the design flaw of it's grip then they would have a good product.


The 1911 style grip angle is similar to holding a hammer. The Glock grip angle is similar to pointing with the index finger.
In close quarters combat, a soldier or police officer is likely to point the handgun with one hand and point shoot.
The Glock is designed for that kind of shooting. The Glock sights are also geared towards quick
sight acquisition in combat and not target shooting. The only real knock on the Glock sights is that they
are polymer and not steel. Steel stock Glock sights are available.

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## DonGlock26

> I've spent more money on my bows than I did my Hk's. 
> 
> Settling for an inferior firearm like a Glock seems counterintuitive.


This is hilarious considering that the special forces of the US Army, Navy, and Marine Corps are all using Glocks by choice.

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## DonGlock26

> It's a design flaw not a personal problem. One of the ways that Sig is superior to Glock is Sig's ability to adjust to it's wielder. Glock can't do that.


It's not a design flaw. It is by design.

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## Green Lion

> The 1911 style grip angle is similar to holding a hammer. The Glock grip angle is similar to pointing with the index finger.
> In close quarters combat, a soldier or police officer is likely to point the handgun with one hand and point shoot.
> The Glock is designed for that kind of shooting. The Glock sights are also geared towards quick
> sight acquisition in combat and not target shooting. The only real knock on the Glock sights is that they
> are polymer and not steel. Steel stock Glock sights are available.


The militarty doesn't issue 1911s, Glocks or Sigs to standard soldiers for your comments regarding the military to be relevant here.

Glock's grip angle HINDERS sight aquisition; it's the very reason the grip angle sucks. Glock's grip angle causes one to shoot very high as it's NOT the natiral wrist angle like the 1911.

If one has extensive experience with revolvers, or punching, that person will like Glock's grip angle as they've already modified their grip angle through other training. If one is new to handguns, or has primeraly open-hand combat training like wrestling, that person will not like Glock unless and until they have extensive traing with it to modify their wrist angle.

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## Green Lion

> It's not a design flaw. It is by design.


That's exactly what makes it a design flaw as opposed to a manufacturing defect.

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## DonGlock26

> I'm uncertain of this forum's policy on posting graphic content so I won't link to it, but on BlueLivesMatter on Facebook they posted bodycam footage of police serving an arrest warrant. The suspect refused to go quietly and came out pointing a handgun at the officers. *The officer the video came from had his service Glock out (I couldn't make out the exact model), and fired 4 shots inside of a second, all 4 hitting the suspect.*


Sounds like excellent performance by the officer and the service pistol.

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Jim Rockford (05-01-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> "ARMY" = Aren't Ready (for) Marines Yet.


I thought it stood for "Victors of largest amphibious assault in human history"?

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## DonGlock26

> Finding Of Fact: Glocks suck.
> 
> Some say Glocks suck -- those are the SMART ones.


The Chairborne know the face of battle. They have the internet.

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Jim Rockford (05-01-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> The militarty doesn't issue 1911s, Glocks or Sigs to standard soldiers for your comments regarding the military to be relevant here.
> 
> Glock's grip angle HINDERS sight aquisition; it's the very reason the grip angle sucks. Glock's grip angle causes one to shoot very high as it's NOT the natiral wrist angle like the 1911.
> 
> If one has extensive experience with revolvers, or punching, that person will like Glock's grip angle as they've already modified their grip angle through other training. If one is new to handguns, or has primeraly open-hand combat training like wrestling, that person will not like Glock unless and until they have extensive traing with it to modify their wrist angle.


The Glocks are issued to the special forces of the three mentioned service branches. The Sig M-11 (P228) has been issued to US Army troops for years.
Thus my comments are perfectly relevant.

You seem to feel that your personal preference is somehow evidence of Glock inferiority. If the Glock grip angle were so poor, why does it dominate
the service pistol market? Besides, you've already told us about Glock pistol performance in the real world.

Since, most fighting system use fists and it is a natural reaction to combat stress, the Glock is superior based on your own argument.

Pointing with the index finger is far more precise and natural than pointing a palm at an opponent.

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## DonGlock26

> That's exactly what makes it a design flaw as opposed to a manufacturing defect.


It isn't a flaw and you've provided no real evidence that it is. It may not be your preference though.

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Jim Rockford (05-01-2016)

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## Rickity Plumber

> I've spent more money on my bows than I did my Hk's. 
> 
> Settling for an inferior firearm like a Glock seems counterintuitive.


You a Hoyt aficionado? 

I am a Darton SL 50 man. 

I have two identical (exactly identical) SL 50's that I have used from the late 1980's. Probably not the high tech of today's technology but something I grew comfortable shooting and have stuck with them ever since.

If I have to do some replacement or change to one of these bows, I do it likewise to the other one. Even though most likely to a novice, they could not tell the difference between the two, I certainly can. I only choose the one for deer hunting but practice with both. I also practice with the heads I use for hunting although I buy new ones for the hunt.

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## DonGlock26

> Dear gentlemen!
> 
> The hereby rendered weapon Glock 17 number AC 428 has been strained with 348'210 rounds during functional and endurance firing.
> 
> The firing has been done exclusively with Hirtenberger ammunition. The following types have been used mostly: 65% 30% 5%
> 
> Up to the mentioned number of bullets after which the barrel lacerated, no gross errors have occured.
> 
> The firing pin spring and recoil spring have each been replaced once.
> ...

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Jim Rockford (05-04-2016)

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## Green Lion

> It isn't a flaw and you've provided no real evidence that it is. It may not be your preference though.


I could google the grip angle for you if there's something wrong with your internet connection.

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## Jim Rockford

> I could google the grip angle for you if there's something wrong with your internet connection.


 Google sock puppet internet troll.

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> The Glocks are issued to the special forces of the three mentioned service branches. The Sig M-11 (P228) has been issued to US Army troops for years.
> Thus my comments are perfectly relevant.


The Sig P228 ( M-11 ) is used by the Army C.I.D. ( Criminal Investigative Division ) and some Military Intelligence ( M.I. ) folks. But predominately CID Agents - so the use among Army Personnel is small. Other than that the Beretta is standard issue for all Army Troops, to Include basic Special Forces personnel. I worked alongside CID and M.I. personnel both.....so I know.

 Delta Force personnel get to pick, with the 1911 be a favorite ( if you watch any Larry Vickers  videos - Larry was former Delta, and in a Sabre Squadron for 9 years ) . One book I read of a "Delta Operation" , and was written by a "Delta" Lieutenant Colonel.....The Lieutenant Colonel carried a Glock 19 overseas, and religiously kept it under his pillow when he slept.




> You seem to feel that your personal preference is somehow evidence of Glock inferiority. If the Glock grip angle were so poor, why does it dominate the service pistol market? Besides, you've already told us about Glock pistol performance in the real world.


 Glocks are the AK-47s of the handgun industry. The only thing that beats Glock is an H&K, and however expensive - are worth the investment. I wish I would not have sold mine......but my mind was clouded when I did.


   : Joe

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## Joe Hallenbeck

> But let's not take anything away from those in any branch who enlisted and served in honor of their country to defend freedom. 
> 
> 
>  3rd Armored Division





   Yeah.....lets not.

My Military Resume >

  1st Cav - Ft.Hood Tx
  2nd Infantry Div - Camp Casey, Korea
  18th Airborne Corp - Saudi Arabia  ( Operation Desert Storm )


       : Joe

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Rickity Plumber (05-04-2016)

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## Rickity Plumber

> Yeah.....lets not.
> 
> My Military Resume >
> 
>   1st Cav - Ft.Hood Tx
>   2nd Infantry Div - Camp Casey, Korea
>   18th Airborne Corp - Saudi Arabia  ( Operation Desert Storm )
> 
> 
>        : Joe


Many thanks. You are an honorable man. Wish we had more like you.

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Jim Rockford (05-04-2016)

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## Big Bird

> I have a CM9 which I can't run with self defense loads.  I have tried 2 or 3 brands, Hornady and PDX1 I believe and all FTF.  All ball ammo runs fine. Any ideas @DonGlock26 ?  The feed ramp looks highly polished.


I have a CM9 that I bought when they 1st came out (it's several years old now) that I feed Federal Premium 124 gr Hydra-Shock JHP for carry and American Eagle 124 FMJ for practice.
 It runs that stuff off flawlessly. Kahr recommends a 200 round break in but both of my Kahr's ran good right out of the box.
 I have two 6 rd mags & two 8 rd mags, both work well, no problems.
 I keep them properly lubed as per the diagram.  

KahrLubePoints.jpg

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DonGlock26 (05-04-2016)

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## Kodiak

> I have a CM9 that I bought when they 1st came out (it's several years old now) that I feed Federal Premium 124 gr Hydra-Shock JHP for carry and American Eagle 124 FMJ for practice.
>  It runs that stuff off flawlessly. Kahr recommends a 200 round break in but both of my Kahr's ran good right out of the box.
>  I have two 6 rd mags & two 8 rd mags, both work well, no problems.
>  I keep them properly lubed as per the diagram.


Like I said earlier, this one had around 500 rounds through it.............according to the original owner I got it from.  I have put another 100 or so through it.  I will be a little more meticulous with the lube and see what happens.  I've been using Balistol on all my weapons lately.

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## Big Bird

> Like I said earlier, this one had around 500 rounds through it.............according to the original owner I got it from.  I have put another 100 or so through it.  I will be a little more meticulous with the lube and see what happens.  I've been using Balistol on all my weapons lately.


 I kept mine fairly wet when they were new with regular old Hoppe's #9.
 I've never tried any other ammo in it tho.. Maybe your's doesn’t like what your feeding it.

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## Big Bird

> Like I said earlier, this one had around 500 rounds through it.............according to the original owner I got it from.  I have put another 100 or so through it.  I will be a little more meticulous with the lube and see what happens.  I've been using Balistol on all my weapons lately.


                        I just remembered something. Some Kahr's were having problems with the mag follower hanging up on the mag release catch. Mine never did it but it was a problem several years ago. The catch was sticking too far into the mag and when the follower went by it scraped on it and caused a feeding failure at that point in the mag. Some people just beveled the mag catch a little and some just sent it back to Kahr.

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## DonGlock26

> The Sig P228 ( M-11 ) is used by the Army C.I.D. ( Criminal Investigative Division ) and some Military Intelligence ( M.I. ) folks. But predominately CID Agents - so the use among Army Personnel is small. Other than that the Beretta is standard issue for all Army Troops, to Include basic Special Forces personnel. I worked alongside CID and M.I. personnel both.....so I know.
> 
>  Delta Force personnel get to pick, with the 1911 be a favorite ( if you watch any Larry Vickers  videos - Larry was former Delta, and in a Sabre Squadron for 9 years ) . One book I read of a "Delta Operation" , and was written by a "Delta" Lieutenant Colonel.....The Lieutenant Colonel carried a Glock 19 overseas, and religiously kept it under his pillow when he slept.
> 
> 
> 
>  Glocks are the AK-47s of the handgun industry. The only thing that beats Glock is an H&K, and however expensive - are worth the investment. I wish I would not have sold mine......but my mind was clouded when I did.
> 
> 
>    : Joe


Army pilots and Navy aviators use the M-11 as does Navy EOD.

Delta moved on from the 1911 to the G-22 in .40 as did FBI HRT.
Then Delta went to the G-17 and G-19 in 9mm.




> The Army’s Delta Force adopted .40 caliber, but the elite unit is having the same problems as the FBI – the heavier caliber is causing excessive wear problems in guns that were originally designed to be 9mm. *Delta is now using 9mm* *Glock** 17s, 19s and 34s.*
> 
> http://kitup.military.com/2014/07/sof-prefers-9mm-45-caliber.html



I don't care for H&K's. The DA trigger sucks and the new striker-fired pistol is chubby compared to a G-19. 
I ditched a P2000 in .40.

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TBO (05-04-2016)

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## DonGlock26

> Like I said earlier, this one had around 500 rounds through it.............according to the original owner I got it from.  I have put another 100 or so through it.  I will be a little more meticulous with the lube and see what happens.  I've been using Balistol on all my weapons lately.


Try Rem Oil (not the dry lube version). It is easily available, affordable, good at low temps, and has teflon added.

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Big Bird (05-04-2016),Kodiak (05-04-2016),MedicineBow (05-04-2016)

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## Big Bird

> Try Rem Oil (not the dry lube version). It is easily available, affordable, good at low temps, and has teflon added.


I think I'm guna try out that oil.

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DonGlock26 (05-05-2016)

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## MedicineBow

That's some good stuff. Been using it for years.


> Try Rem Oil (not the dry lube version). It is easily available, affordable, good at low temps, and has teflon added.

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DonGlock26 (05-05-2016)

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## Green Lion

> Google sock puppet internet troll.


Why? I'm neither. In fact I'm on topic. "People who say glocks suck" usually aren't referring to the internals.

Maybe this isn't the thread for you.

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## Someguy

> Why? I'm neither. In fact I'm on topic. "People who say glocks suck" usually aren't referring to the internals.
> 
> *Maybe this isn't the thread for you.*


It's his thread.
As for the lube controversy, let me put it to rest for all time.  Mobile One.  Thank you.

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## Green Lion

> It's his thread.
> As for the lube controversy, let me put it to rest for all time.  Mobile One.  Thank you.


It's admin's thread. We don't own anything on this site, not pictures we upload, not original poems, stories, or art we upload, not the content of our posts, not the account we use nor threads we start. It all belongs to the site owner.

Isn't mobile one a phone company?

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## teeceetx

> Anytime, my friend.
> 
> I have a G43. I also have a Kahr PM9 which is 9mm and a little smaller.



Just got the G43 9mm.  Sweet little thing.  6 rd mag is a negative.  Great carry gun though.  Also have a G21 .45.  Really like that one!

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