# Stuff and Things > HISTORY, veterans & science >  Rise against the machines

## Mr. Independent

I can imagine the possibility of at least an attempted neo-Luddite rise and revolution.

The tech and machines are virtually an example of socialism and communism in action if you really think about it. Think, there is no gender or race or other difference in human qualities. That men are able to become pregnant. Women can have children without relying on the male partner. That private companies using big-tech have a stranglehold monopoly on distribution and marketing of all goods and services. Like one or two large streaming companies having 95-99% complete control over all modern and classic (of course watered down or banned completely) forms of media. We are all living our social and work virtual lives with physical social interaction and labor being restricted.

No wonder that the concept of socialism is rapidly gaining momentum in the last 10 years than before, I believe this is part of it or that the momentum is being accelerated by it. Some people can argue about the benefits, but I would figure that both tech and big socialism are eventually taking us down virtually the same kind of path.

And what this year has taught us that if people are crazy enough to want to burn down and destroy their own entire cities, then a group of determined people might be crazy (or bold) enough to burn and destroy robots and machine tech one day.

----------

Quark (07-28-2020),Ragot the Gerbil (11-05-2020),RMNIXON (07-28-2020)

----------


## Quark

Good points.

Technology is at the top of the bell curve as far as making humans more productive. Now technology is heading down the bell curve toward destroying humanity.

----------

RMNIXON (07-28-2020)

----------


## ruthless terrier

> Technology is at the top of the bell curve as far as making humans more productive. Now technology is heading down the bell curve toward destroying humanity.


i was a high tech worker with BS degree. it is a good but tough career as is anything worth doing. i had great hopes that technology would answer many of our problems. but out of all the paths it could have taken .. much of it seems to have gone the way of the far left. after all .. what better way to shove your propaganda into the soft brains of the youth nonono.gif

----------

Quark (07-28-2020)

----------


## RMNIXON

This is the Future promised by failed Presidential candidates like Andrew Yang. That the public will be kept docile with a promise of minimum guaranteed incomes when the machines take over. Making most of the population totally dependent on the charity of the Masters! 


 :Sofa:

----------

Quark (07-28-2020)

----------


## UKSmartypants

> Good points.
> 
> Technology is at the top of the bell curve as far as making humans more productive. Now technology is heading down the bell curve toward destroying humanity.


nah its nowhere near the top,   we havent even begun with robotics, cybernetics IoT and AI. You simply wont believe whats coming down the line at us in that respect (but i do).  The top of the curve is when all work is done by machines and there is no work for humans.  And thats coming sooner than you think.

If we achieve Technological Singularity by the estimates (2070), and we have developed man/machine melds (already in progress) then it isnt the destruction of humanity, it the point where we become a new advanced species in charge of our own evolution.

Unless we hit Kardashevs Last Great Filter first

----------


## Quark

The one items that few know about is that one of the items that brought down the ancient Roman toward the end was a type of minimum basic annual income and free bread. This ultimately lead to the brutal circuses that was necessary to keep the masses especially the City of Roman occupied because the citizens had little to do but go to the games and fornicate.

Technology and a minimum basic annual income will lead to the same thing like riots, looting, arson, vandalism, murder, etc.

----------


## Quark

> nah its nowhere near the top,   we havent even begun with robotics, cybernetics IoT and AI. You simply wont believe whats coming down the line at us in that respect (but i do).  The top of the curve is when all work is done by machines and there is no work for humans.  And thats coming sooner than you think.


That's why I say we are at the top of the curve. The down side is exactly what you have described.

----------


## UKSmartypants

> The one items that few know about is that one of the items that brought down the ancient Roman toward the end was a type of minimum basic annual income and free bread. This ultimately lead to the brutal circuses that was necessary to keep the masses especially the City of Roman occupied because the citizens had little to do but go to the games and fornicate.
> 
> Technology and a minimum basic annual income will lead to the same thing like riots, looting, arson, vandalism, murder, etc.


Theres absolutely no proof of that at all,. its sheer conjecture. Mankind will adapt, as it always has, it will have to. And there may well be rocky bits and riots, but humans will still be around at the end of it.  Your analogy with the Romans is totally inappropriate, its a completely different world with different problems,. The romans did not have the technology we have, and their culture and worldview was a world away.

----------


## JustPassinThru

Machines do the bidding of the meat that designs, builds, and uses them.  Any not-good to come from them, is the result of failure of design or improper usage.

Only an idiot would, say, ban hydraulic shovels to employ fifty diggers to shovel out a foundation for a structure.  The guy with the shovel does it quicker, lower cost, neater.  What that means is, more structures built.  And, you know what?  In this age of unaffordable housing...we need more structures.

Or a cargo ship.  With machines and controls, huge amounts of cargo are moved with a twelve-man crew.  Compare that to the old clipper ships, which had twice the sailors for one-twentieth the cargo.  Those men had to be paid; and it added to the cost of goods shipped.  That was a lower, not higher, cost of living.

We had near-full employment fifteen years ago.  All those MACHINES...and somehow, we had all these jobs.  Because the guys NOT shoveling coal into steam-engine fireboxes, found other, better, more-productive things to do.  The economy expanded - as happens when there is not crushing government stomping the faces of innovaters.

Interesting story (interesting to me, anyway):  As a former Yugo owner (bought it used, and got ripped off) I found the history of the car quite revealing.  A Serbian writer, Jason Vuic, documented the history of getting this Yugoslavian state-manufactured car, a castoff Fiat model, imported into the States.  Malcolm Bricklin was the ramrod; but Malcolm Bricklin didn't know how to do much besides party-hardy and make media non-events.  He had underlings go into negotiation with the Yugoslavian commissariats; and watch the line at work.  

This guy, forget his name, was just...shocked.  For example, a wiring harness.  Made from Fiat's plans.  The Yugo people had some additional options - in this case, a rear-window wiper and defroster.  So, to get the wiring installed, and through an ill-fitting hole...someone on the line would cut...EVERY wiring harness; feed the half through the hole, and tape it up...by HAND.

The American saw similar inefficiencies everywhere.  There were five-times the men on the line that would be found in a Western auto plant; and many of them were working sloppily and unsafely.  But there was NO INTEREST in further mechanizing the line, or updating the parts like the wiring harness.  The intent was to MAXIMIZE...EMPLOYMENT.

What came out of there was an incredibly shoddy car - it made even Fiat cars, built BY Fiat, look good.

Mechanization is good.  It increases productivity and thus, wealth.  More stuff done, cheaper.

Getting government out of employment issues...effectively, removing government bars to employment...is also good.  Let the Free Market work - and it always does.  Not perfectly, but far better than did the Yugo plant, or Barry's beloved Kenya, or any other command-and-control economy.

----------

usfan (02-19-2021)

----------


## UKSmartypants

> Machines do the bidding of the meat that designs, builds, and uses them.  Any not-good to come from them, is the result of failure of design or improper usage.
> 
> Only an idiot would, say, ban hydraulic shovels to employ fifty diggers to shovel out a foundation for a structure.  The guy with the shovel does it quicker, lower cost, neater.  What that means is, more structures built.  And, you know what?  In this age of unaffordable housing...we need more structures.
> 
> Or a cargo ship.  With machines and controls, huge amounts of cargo are moved with a twelve-man crew.  Compare that to the old clipper ships, which had twice the sailors for one-twentieth the cargo.  Those men had to be paid; and it added to the cost of goods shipped.  That was a lower, not higher, cost of living.
> 
> We had near-full employment fifteen years ago.  All those MACHINES...and somehow, we had all these jobs.  Because the guys NOT shoveling coal into steam-engine fireboxes, found other, better, more-productive things to do.  The economy expanded - as happens when there is not crushing government stomping the faces of innovaters.
> 
> Interesting story (interesting to me, anyway):  As a former Yugo owner (bought it used, and got ripped off) I found the history of the car quite revealing.  A Serbian writer, Jason Vuic, documented the history of getting this Yugoslavian state-manufactured car, a castoff Fiat model, imported into the States.  Malcolm Bricklin was the ramrod; but Malcolm Bricklin didn't know how to do much besides party-hardy and make media non-events.  He had underlings go into negotiation with the Yugoslavian commissariats; and watch the line at work.  
> ...



I had a  Yugo 45 once, it was a SOHC 1.3 engine with a Weber carb and transverse mounted  front wheel drive engine. A Yugoslavian company called Zastava  bought all the moulds and jigging from fiat for the old Fiat 128.

Like you say it was a dreadful car.   There was no interlock on the gear box, and there was nothing to stop you moving into reverse gear and letting the clutch back out ...whilst going forward at 60 mph.  In fact, almost any scrap yugo you found   had the gear box missing,  you had to be extremely careful, The clutch flywheel and starter ring was heat shrunk onto the shaft, like the old wagon wheel iron rims, which meant it was impossible to disassemble the gear box without destroying the flywheel. (you had to cut it off with an angle grinder.)

Mine fell apart one day. Literally.  It had started to develop a steering drift, then one day it just broke across the car from  rear of the front wings. There was  a massive crack, caused by corrosion and vibration,  had run totally across the car, from the top rear of the front wing down the inner wing, across the floor plate and through the chassis rails, then back up the inner wing. In fact I realised the steering drift was a consequence of the drivers side front wing area of the car actually parting company  slightly with the rest of the car when you accelerated. There was only the passenger side of the car that was completely attached all the way along. 


It also had no form of carb heating, so when you took it out in the cold in winter and across the M62 up high, the carb would ice up just  like propeller airplane carbs do. The car woudl slow down, cut out, then you had to wait ten mins for the heat off the engine to melt the plug of ice in the air intake.

----------


## JustPassinThru

Well...it wasn't a Yugoslavian "company."  Zastava, which is a shortened form of a Serbian name...was an arms manufacturer dating back to the mid-19th Century.

But Tito's Communist government didn't allow private enterprise.  The former arms works became the auto works, while keeping the Zastava name.  Potemkin Private Enterprise.

Fiat is as complicit in this as was Yugo.  Fiat had a habit of selling their obsolete models and tooling - not to American Motors, which could have done something with the Fiat 127 design (think, a replacement Gremlin) but to Communist governments.  The USSR got the Fiat 124 - renamed the Lada (Beloved in Russian).  The Lada was all over Europe and imported to Canada, where it had a bad habit of clogging whatever freeway it was herded onto before its inevitable breakdown.

Lada and Zastava exchanged parts, frequently, since basic things like wheels and cabin airflow and heater parts, were interchangeable.

What neither of these "companies" had was, engineering or quality-control departments.  They just kept on making them, until no one wanted them.  Which, in a Communist nation with no market choices, took a long, long time.

----------

UKSmartypants (07-29-2020)

----------


## UKSmartypants

Yes, thanks for clarifying that. Interesting

Lada's were more reliable than Yugos, on a scale of sheer awfulness. This was because wheras Yugo were shoddily made by couldnt care less Yugoslavians, Lada's were assembled in old T-34 factories with the same techniques as the T-34.  They were both unreliable but for different reasons. I had a friend with a Lada.  Sometimes it would halt, and hed get out, lift the bonnet , whack something with a large 2Lb hammer several times, and it would start and run  again. The Lada  was very very heavy and had the intertia and momentum of a small battle ship.  The brakes were dreadful and the gearbox would have worked better if it had been made of Meccano.


The other marvel of Soviet Bloc Aotomotive Genius we havent yet mentioned was ofc the Trabant.  Representing the best in Soviet East  German design, it had no tachometer, no indicator for either the headlights or turn signals, no fuel gauge, no rear seat belts, no external fuel door, and drivers had to pour a mix of gasoline and oil directly under the bonnet/hood.  Wheras both the Lada and Fiat were originally designed by western car makers, the Soviet conceived Trabant was loud, slow, poorly designed, and badly built.. The 25 HP two stroke two cylinder engine did 0-60 mph in 22 seconds. Running, they sounded like a soviet tractor..  Because the Trabant had no fuel pump, its fuel tank was above the motor so fuel could reach the carburetor by gravity; this increased the risk of fire in front-end accidents. Earlier models had no fuel gauge either, all you had was a dipstick.  The Trabant had a steel unibody frame, with the roof, trunk lid, hood, fenders and doors made of duroplast, a hard plastic made from recycled cotton waste from the Soviet Union and phenol resins from the East German dye industry.  The demand to production ratio was 43:1, if you were lucky you only had to wait 12 years to get one once you bribed your name onto the waiting list.

----------

Oceander (07-29-2020)

----------


## Oceander

> Yes, thanks for clarifying that. Interesting
> 
> Lada's were more reliable than Yugos, on a scale of sheer awfulness. This was because wheras Yugo were shoddily made by couldnt care less Yugoslavians, Lada's were assembled in old T-34 factories with the same techniques as the T-34.  They were both unreliable but for different reasons. I had a friend with a Lada.  Sometimes it would halt, and hed get out, lift the bonnet , whack something with a large 2Lb hammer several times, and it would start and run  again. The Lada  was very very heavy and had the intertia and momentum of a small battle ship.  The brakes were dreadful and the gearbox would have worked better if it had been made of Meccano.
> 
> 
> The other marvel of Soviet Bloc Aotomotive Genius was ofc the Trabant.  Representing the best in Soviet East  German design, it had no tachometer, no indicator for either the headlights or turn signals, no fuel gauge, no rear seat belts, no external fuel door, and drivers had to pour a mix of gasoline and oil directly under the bonnet/hood.  Wheras both the Lada and Fiat were originally designed by western car makers, the Soviet conceived Trabant was loud, slow, poorly designed, and badly built.. The 25 HP two stroke two cylinder engine did 0-60 mph in 22 seconds. Running, they sounded like a soviet tractor..  Because the Trabant had no fuel pump, its fuel tank was above the motor so fuel could reach the carburetor by gravity; this increased the risk of fire in front-end accidents. Earlier models had no fuel gauge either, all you had was a dipstick.


Ahh, the Yugo - the best interior cardbox boxes could provide.

----------

UKSmartypants (07-29-2020)

----------


## UKSmartypants

> Ahh, the Yugo - the best interior cardbox boxes could provide.



ah you have partaken.  You know nothing about cars until you've kept a soviet bloc car on the road. Then you can mend everything up to T-34 tanks.

----------

Oceander (07-29-2020)

----------


## JustPassinThru

> Yes, thanks for clarifying that. Interesting
> 
> Lada's were more reliable than Yugos, on a scale of sheer awfulness. This was because wheras Yugo were shoddily made by couldnt care less Yugoslavians, Lada's were assembled in old T-34 factories with the same techniques as the T-34.  They were both unreliable but for different reasons. I had a friend with a Lada.  Sometimes it would halt, and hed get out, lift the bonnet , whack something with a large 2Lb hammer several times, and it would start and run  again. The Lada  was very very heavy and had the intertia and momentum of a small battle ship.  The brakes were dreadful and the gearbox would have worked better if it had been made of Meccano.
> 
> 
> The other marvel of Soviet Bloc Aotomotive Genius we havent yet mentioned was ofc the Trabant.  Representing the best in Soviet East  German design, it had no tachometer, no indicator for either the headlights or turn signals, no fuel gauge, no rear seat belts, no external fuel door, and drivers had to pour a mix of gasoline and oil directly under the bonnet/hood.  Wheras both the Lada and Fiat were originally designed by western car makers, the Soviet conceived Trabant was loud, slow, poorly designed, and badly built.. The 25 HP two stroke two cylinder engine did 0-60 mph in 22 seconds. Running, they sounded like a soviet tractor..  Because the Trabant had no fuel pump, its fuel tank was above the motor so fuel could reach the carburetor by gravity; this increased the risk of fire in front-end accidents. Earlier models had no fuel gauge either, all you had was a dipstick.  The Trabant had a steel unibody frame, with the roof, trunk lid, hood, fenders and doors made of duroplast, a hard plastic made from recycled cotton waste from the Soviet Union and phenol resins from the East German dye industry.  The demand to production ratio was 43:1, if you were lucky you only had to wait 12 years to get one once you bribed your name onto the waiting list.


The Trabant was somewhat different.  It was engineered BY the GDR FOR the use of the peon-subjects.

At least it was original; and win or lose (lose, no question) it was the East German State's best effort at consumer goods.

The two Fiat designs to go to Communist governments...started out as acceptable European automobiles in the early 1970s.  Handed the full rights to the design, including tooling...we see what Socialism can do with it.  Precious little - they can't even make it as good as Fiat made it, which is telling.

The Trabant was so awful even East Germans, getting through the wall, drove it until it was out of petrol, and then just abandoned them.

----------


## JustPassinThru

> ah you have partaken.  You know nothing about cars until you've kept a soviet bloc car on the road. Then you can mend everything up to T-34 tanks.


You get creative.

Periodically my Yugo would have a brownout.  All of a sudden all power would go at about half voltage - lights dim, radio quit, and it wouldn't start.  Generally in inconvenient times.  I found, after about three of these episodes, that pulling the battery cable and replacing it set everything right.

With time, I took a secondary hot-wire, and ran it, with a fusible link, from the battery terminal to an unused hot terminal on the fuse panel.  That cured THAT...but as I was to learn, it set the stage for a really-expensive final fail.

----------

Oceander (07-29-2020),ruthless terrier (07-29-2020)

----------


## Oceander

> You get creative.
> 
> Periodically my Yugo would have a brownout.  All of a sudden all power would go at about half voltage - lights dim, radio quit, and it wouldn't start.  Generally in inconvenient times.  I found, after about three of these episodes, that pulling the battery cable and replacing it set everything right.
> 
> With time, I took a secondary hot-wire, and ran it, with a fusible link, from the battery terminal to an unused hot terminal on the fuse panel.  That cured THAT...but as I was to learn, it set the stage for a really-expensive final fail.


Can I guess what that final fail was?

----------


## JustPassinThru

> Can I guess what that final fail was?


Drag up a rock.  It's a long story - and it illustrates unwarranted youthful optimism.

Having been laid off from my State of Ohio job...I went back to university.  I was 28.  As it happened, my main summer-term class was cancelled for lack of enrollment, so I opted to just take the summer off.  My now-ex and I had talked of seeing the Grand Canyon - and I had a new interest, with an SLR camera.  I wanted to tour the Rockies and photograph the various Ghost Towns, old mining towns that had been abandoned or nearly so.

We didn't have money enough for two plane tickets to Arizona.  She didn't have time enough off work to come travel the mountains with me.  We compromised:  I'd drive out to Las Vegas, a hundred miles from the Grand Canyon...and meet her at the airport.  We'd spend a weekend gambling - a novelty to us both - and then drive to the Canyon.  In my car.

In my Yugo.




So.  I crossed the Northern Plains, and the Bitterroots - I was through exactly where I now live, although at the time, I was unimpressed.  A college town...BFD.  After seeing Elkhorn, Montana - which, since, is starting to repopulate - I aimed the Yugo south.  

I was running out of time - I had two days to get to Vegas.  I'd need most of that.

Along the Bonneville Salt Flats...I noticed.  Clutch was slipping!  I have never burned out a clutch, ever; but here, this one's going.  

So I baby it.  Ease off the gas.  That works until it doesn't.  Drop a gear - now we're really slowing down.  Clutch still slips unless I feather the throttle.

I made close to a thousand miles that way.  By some miracle I got to the airport just hours ahead of when I should be...and I was a mess, no sleep, adrenaline from the constant worry of that clutch.  Parked it in the short-term lot and went in, slept on a seat (pre-9-11) until her flight got in. 

There was nothing to do but have the Yu-don't-go towed out to the Yugo dealer in Henderson.  We rented a car - an unexpected expense, a big one.  Signed the work order on Yu-don't-go and went to the Canyon.

A good time was had, except for the worry of the cost of the clutch.  Which was reasonable, by the estimate; but we know how that goes.

Okay.  Playtime over; I hustle ex to her flight; she wishes me luck, and I go pick up the Yugo.  Actually it's running better than it had been - something was unbalanced that they had balanced.  Excellent.

So.  Now my goal is Rocky Mountain National Park.  I aim for it...and I get as far as the Colorado state line, Fruita...when there's a few bangs under the hood and everything stops.  W...T...F!

I look.  The alternator belt had popped off.

And had gotten under the timing-belt cover, and busted IT.

Which sent valve heads into piston crowns.  Engine was destroyed, as I later found out.

I put about 300 miles on that new clutch.  I could have taken a taxi for less money.  I got scrap price for the Yugo, since there was not a Yugo or Fiat 128 engine ANYWHERE reasonably close to Western Colorado.

----------


## Oceander

> Drag up a rock.  It's a long story - and it illustrates unwarranted youthful optimism.
> 
> Having been laid off from my State of Ohio job...I went back to university.  I was 28.  As it happened, my main summer-term class was cancelled for lack of enrollment, so I opted to just take the summer off.  My now-ex and I had talked of seeing the Grand Canyon - and I had a new interest, with an SLR camera.  I wanted to tour the Rockies and photograph the various Ghost Towns, old mining towns that had been abandoned or nearly so.
> 
> We didn't have money enough for two plane tickets to Arizona.  She didn't have time enough off work to come travel the mountains with me.  We compromised:  I'd drive out to Las Vegas, a hundred miles from the Grand Canyon...and meet her at the airport.  We'd spend a weekend gambling - a novelty to us both - and then drive to the Canyon.  In my car.
> 
> In my Yugo.
> 
> 
> ...


Wow!  That is a story for the ages, my friend!

----------


## Mr. Independent

> The one items that few know about is that one of the items that brought down the ancient Roman toward the end was a type of minimum basic annual income and free bread. This ultimately lead to the brutal circuses that was necessary to keep the masses especially the City of Roman occupied because the citizens had little to do but go to the games and fornicate.
> 
> Technology and a minimum basic annual income will lead to the same thing like riots, looting, arson, vandalism, murder, etc.


I know the concept of minimum basic income isn't technology-caused _per se_ but a kind of reaction to it.

----------


## JustPassinThru

> I know the concept of minimum basic income isn't technology-caused _per se_ but a kind of reaction to it.


No.

It's caused by sloth and envy, and a desire for Money-Fer-Nuffin.

Technology is the excuse given.

Up until 2008 we had more jobs, and lower unemployment, than EVER.  And once a pot-addled, low-intellect African Marxist was removed from the off-White House, unemployment again dropped to historic lows, and employment among blacks and other groups the Left watches so carefully...was at record low levels.

Until Soros, the Deep State, and the CCP, gave us the Wu Flu.

No.  What this UBI insanity is about, is just young people without discipline or ambition, many addicted to drugs, who want to be kept without work.

----------

Brat (08-08-2020),patrickt (08-08-2020)

----------


## patrickt

I suppose I should say good-bye to all of you since you'll be smashing your cellphones and your computers--Windows, Apples, Linux, and Chromebooks--and getting rid of everything else you have that didn't exist five years ago. This forum will be just five conservatives. Hang in there Trinity.

Or, are you like the people in the city where I used to live that knew the city was just the right size the day they moved there and growth had to be stopped. I agreed with them one night and asked that everyone who arrived after December 15, 1965, when I arrived, should leave and go back to California. Nobody did. 

I live in the mountains of southern Mexico and the hub of the Zapotec technology revolution is always a year or two behind the curve and I can't wait for the new stuff. My son bought a Tesla car a year ago and so far he's delighted with it. He's also got solar cells and modern batteries for his home. He recently told me he was shocked to see that he was generating more electricity than he uses even on cloudy days. And, he was in Hawaii on business when a large package arrived at his home in Texas. He got a text message, saw the UPS guy on his porch camera, unlocked the door and watched him set the package inside, and once the door was closed he locked it again. I think that is cool.

So, as your Neo-Luddite Revolution Burns phones and smashed laptops, count me out. The problems caused by new technology can all be solved by...new technology. The problem is crooked politicians never improve.

I just asked my original generation Google Home Mini about the Neo-Luddite revolution. I said, "Hey, Google, is there a Neo-Luddite revolution." 

According to Google there is and they use violence. Go ahead, ask and have a chuckle.

I read a book years ago that was a new take on 1984. In the new take the government was maintaining the Big Brother system but they didn't really understand it. The proles understood it. They were the hackers and the geeks and they used to Big Brother system to undermine Big Brother. If anyone knows the book, I'd love to read it again.

----------


## Captain Kirk!



----------


## UKSmartypants

As you know i worked i nIT all my life, pretty much, ever since 1980.

As the internet evolved so did the dangers inherent in it.  Its clear to me now, 40 years later, that the internet is one of the grreatest dangers to humans, along with AI and Nanotech.

The world is shifting, and the way its going is a totalitarian Technocracy. The Internet provides evil people with a method to lie and manipulate us like no other time in history. At the same time  our children are being brainwashed in schools and taught not to challenge dogma. It doesnt look good.

My view now, (and dont make the mistake of thinking im antitechnology - i love tech, im a technofreak, but tempered with age),  is that the innocent peak of technology is now passed, and its likely it will be used only for more sinister and oppressive ends from now on.

----------

Big Wheeler (08-08-2020)

----------


## Big Wheeler

I'm proud to be a technophobe.I don't own a smartphone neither do I do social media.I have a computer but I can only do online banking,buy something or travel tickets.I have disabled loads of stuff on my over complicated car because it is distracting from the job of not colliding with other cars.
As Smarty says our children are being brainwashed from a young age then being manipulated by garbage tv shows and global organisations until we will eventually be mouth breathing automatons.
At 73,I don't suppose I will live into the worst but I worry about my grand children.I suggested Australia or New Zealand for a better life,there's nowhere else.
Aren't I a true Mr.Happy today.

----------

UKSmartypants (08-08-2020)

----------


## UKSmartypants

The main threat is AI. People just cant grasp this. Its as dangerous as the Atomic bomb was in 1946. I warned a few weeks ago that the critical breakthrough was an AI that had transferable learning skills. Such an AI could teach itself to do anything. Looks like we are already there:
*AI 'too dangerous to release' STUNS experts - 'Mind blowing'*

The artificial intelligence tool Generative Pre-training Transformer (GPT-3) has stunned experts with its unerring ability to design websites, prescribe medication and even answer questions. GPT-3 is the third generation of the machine learning model, where computers can automatically learn from their experiences without having to be programmed.

The AI's predecessor GPT-2, made headlines after being dubbed “too dangerous to release” due to its ability to create text apparently indistinguishable from that written by human beings.While GPT-2 had 1.5 billion parameters which could be set, the AI's successor has 175 billion parameters. A parameter is a variable which affects the data’s prominence in the machine learning tool, and changing them affects the output of the tool.  At the time when GPT-2 was deemed “too dangerous” to release, it used 124 million parameters.

GPT-3 is currently in closed-access, with demonstrations of the AI's incredible ability being shared on social media. Coder Sharif Shameem has shown how artificial intelligence can be used to describe designs which will then be built by the AI despite it not being trained to do so. Designer Jordan Singer created a similar process for app designs, while a medical student at Kings College London Qasim Munye showed how the program can access information to answer medical questions.  Given an incomplete image, the cutting-edge artificial intelligence can also be used to 'auto-complete' it.

The AI does so by using its tools to suggest what pixels 'should' be in the image based on its database.   The reason that GPT-3 can demonstrate such capabilities is because it has been trained on an archive of the internet called the Common Crawl, containing almost one trillion words of data.  The tool comes from OpenAI, an artificial intelligence research lab split into two sections: a for-profit corporation called OpenAI LP, and its non-profit parent organisation OpenAI Inc.   Last month, the product was made commercially available, but work remains for investigating how the tool should be used.



heres a sample of text it produced when asked  "Whats Twitter" and seeded  with the name 'Jerome K Jerome'




So now we have an Ai that can teach itself WHEN PROMPTED to with a subject. The next step is an AI that teaches its self on its own bat about all sorts of things when simply given access to the internet.   Then you are another step closer the Skynet and Judgement Day.

----------


## JustPassinThru

> As you know i worked i nIT all my life, pretty much, ever since 1980.
> 
> As the internet evolved so did the dangers inherent in it.  Its clear to me now, 40 years later, that the internet is one of the grreatest dangers to humans, along with AI and Nanotech.
> 
> The world is shifting, and the way its going is a totalitarian Technocracy. The Internet provides evil people with a method to lie and manipulate us like no other time in history. At the same time  our children are being brainwashed in schools and taught not to challenge dogma. It doesnt look good.
> 
> My view now, (and dont make the mistake of thinking im antitechnology - i love tech, im a technofreak, but tempered with age),  is that the innocent peak of technology is now passed, and its likely it will be used only for more sinister and oppressive ends from now on.


As it happens - and I think you're right, it probably will - but as it does, society will slide backwards into a Soviet-esque purgatory.  Because the high standard of living we all enjoy depends on initiative, hard work, and creativity - all which require personal reward to bring out.

Danger of offense to someone powerful, or violation of some speech canon or Forbidden Thought...while having at best token rewards (since the wealth is controlled by the small Political-Elite cadre) causes the expansion of the NPC worker ranks.  Zombies who go through the motions, caring nothing for their jobs or even their own future.  Which is natural, since they will have no future.

This is where this technology-based economy poisons its own soil, kills its roots and itself.

----------

Brat (08-08-2020),UKSmartypants (08-08-2020)

----------


## UKSmartypants

> As it happens - and I think you're right, it probably will - but as it does, society will slide backwards into a Soviet-esque purgatory.  Because the high standard of living we all enjoy depends on initiative, hard work, and creativity - all which require personal reward to bring out.
> 
> Danger of offense to someone powerful, or violation of some speech canon or Forbidden Thought...while having at best token rewards (since the wealth is controlled by the small Political-Elite cadre) causes the expansion of the NPC worker ranks.  Zombies who go through the motions, caring nothing for their jobs or even their own future.  Which is natural, since they will have no future.
> 
> This is where this technology-based economy poisons its own soil, kills its roots and itself.


Cant disagree with that. The same conditions that created the Late Bronze Age Collapse and the Roman Empire Collapse are starting to come together.


Which makes me think that THIS is Kardashevs Last Great Filter approching.

----------


## Mr. Independent

> The main threat is AI. People just cant grasp this. Its as dangerous as the Atomic bomb was in 1946. I warned a few weeks ago that the critical breakthrough was an AI that had transferable learning skills. Such an AI could teach itself to do anything. Looks like we are already there:
> *AI 'too dangerous to release' STUNS experts - 'Mind blowing'*
> 
> The artificial intelligence tool Generative Pre-training Transformer (GPT-3) has stunned experts with its unerring ability to design websites, prescribe medication and even answer questions. GPT-3 is the third generation of the machine learning model, where computers can automatically learn from their experiences without having to be programmed.
> 
> The AI's predecessor GPT-2, made headlines after being dubbed “too dangerous to release” due to its ability to create text apparently indistinguishable from that written by human beings.While GPT-2 had 1.5 billion parameters which could be set, the AI's successor has 175 billion parameters. A parameter is a variable which affects the data’s prominence in the machine learning tool, and changing them affects the output of the tool.  At the time when GPT-2 was deemed “too dangerous” to release, it used 124 million parameters.
> 
> GPT-3 is currently in closed-access, with demonstrations of the AI's incredible ability being shared on social media. Coder Sharif Shameem has shown how artificial intelligence can be used to describe designs which will then be built by the AI despite it not being trained to do so. Designer Jordan Singer created a similar process for app designs, while a medical student at Kings College London Qasim Munye showed how the program can access information to answer medical questions.  Given an incomplete image, the cutting-edge artificial intelligence can also be used to 'auto-complete' it.
> 
> ...


Could this to destroy with EMP?

----------


## patrickt

> I'm proud to be a technophobe.I don't own a smartphone neither do I do social media.I have a computer but I can only do online banking,buy something or travel tickets.I have disabled loads of stuff on my over complicated car because it is distracting from the job of not colliding with other cars.
> As Smarty says our children are being brainwashed from a young age then being manipulated by garbage tv shows and global organisations until we will eventually be mouth breathing automatons.
> At 73,I don't suppose I will live into the worst but I worry about my grand children.I suggested Australia or New Zealand for a better life,there's nowhere else.
> Aren't I a true Mr.Happy today.


I know a lot of people who are proud technophobes. They're constantly asking me to help them with something. For some odd reason they get pissed when I want to charge them. They seem to think the world should serve them so they don't have to do anything.

----------

Oceander (08-10-2020)

----------


## Big Wheeler

> I know a lot of people who are proud technophobes. They're constantly asking me to help them with something. For some odd reason they get pissed when I want to charge them. They seem to think the world should serve them so they don't have to do anything.


Not me.If I can't do it or figure out how,I don't bother.I can live happily in my ignorance.

----------


## Mr. Independent

And here is some related stuff:
LockdownSkepticism
Give me that old time hunting and gathering.

----------


## JustPassinThru

> Not me.If I can't do it or figure out how,I don't bother.I can live happily in my ignorance.



Yeah, but the Bugman shit is getting more widespread.

...what's Bugman Shit?  Needless complexity for the sake of complexity.  For the hominid insects that enjoy hundred-page manuals, FINE PRINT, for a wristwatch.  For the GD iPhone, that gets a new operating system every two weeks...each one more complex and with less features.  Last one reset everything, and now the GD thing keeps pinging me to dump my bank information into Wallet.

NO.

I'm getting angrier and angrier about this.  Features I USE on a computer, are taken away or made something that has to be hacked - I used to use RSS feeds to just download podcasts.  Easiest thing in the world - right-click the desired mp3; and then move it to the player.

That has STOPPED.  Now on some sites I have to be a member - register, another password, another endless spam stream, and then and ONLY then can I download off the regular web page.  Other sites insist on me going through iTunes or Gurgle.  Obviously this is the tech tyrants, not the content providers - they get all that information, to sell; and then when said podcaster says something that they disapprove of, they can threaten to dump it all.  And often do exactly that.

Fine.  Eventually it was going to happen...depending on autistics and faggots and dykes and potheads for information, takes us right here, exactly.  So it's back to books.  And old computers, that can still play DVDs.  The new ones will not, even with an external DVD player and driver.  ANOTHER way they want to control us.

EMP attack?  I'm almost looking forward to it.

----------


## Mr. Independent

> Yeah, but the Bugman shit is getting more widespread.
> 
> ...what's Bugman Shit?  Needless complexity for the sake of complexity.  For the hominid insects that enjoy hundred-page manuals, FINE PRINT, for a wristwatch.  For the GD iPhone, that gets a new operating system every two weeks...each one more complex and with less features.  Last one reset everything, and now the GD thing keeps pinging me to dump my bank information into Wallet.
> 
> NO.
> 
> I'm getting angrier and angrier about this.  Features I USE on a computer, are taken away or made something that has to be hacked - I used to use RSS feeds to just download podcasts.  Easiest thing in the world - right-click the desired mp3; and then move it to the player.
> 
> That has STOPPED.  Now on some sites I have to be a member - register, another password, another endless spam stream, and then and ONLY then can I download off the regular web page.  Other sites insist on me going through iTunes or Gurgle.  Obviously this is the tech tyrants, not the content providers - they get all that information, to sell; and then when said podcaster says something that they disapprove of, they can threaten to dump it all.  And often do exactly that.
> ...


Even then, an EMP attack will only affect just one continent-sized area at max. Our abroad enemies who want to invade will still have their cards in the meantime.

----------


## patrickt

> Good points.
> 
> Technology is at the top of the bell curve as far as making humans more productive. Now technology is heading down the bell curve toward destroying humanity.


Technology is neutral. It's how we choose to use it that's the issue.

----------


## UKSmartypants

> The one items that few know about is that one of the items that brought down the ancient Roman toward the end was a type of minimum basic annual income and free bread. This ultimately lead to the brutal circuses that was necessary to keep the masses especially the City of Roman occupied because the citizens had little to do but go to the games and fornicate.
> 
> Technology and a minimum basic annual income will lead to the same thing like riots, looting, arson, vandalism, murder, etc.



Well I think its more acccurate to say the Roman Empire fell because of a combination of Christianity, decadence and lead poisoning.

----------


## JustPassinThru

> Technology is neutral. It's how we choose to use it that's the issue.


It gives greater and greater power to those who use and understand it.

When our technology was sticks, anyone who could pick up or break off a stick, could be armed.  When we advanced to axes, and then blunderbusses...someone had to make them.  And then the owner or user, trained.

Now, with technology in silicon valves and switches, and reams and reams of code...only someone with YEARS of training could see how it works.  And only someone who understood how to weaponize it, could apply it.  Be it, a smart-bomb or a web search engine with a rigged algorithm.

And them an evil autistic genius like Zuck the Cuck, who figured out how to monetize all the data that low-intellect users fed into his program-platform.  And then use THAT power, to promote dishonest assertions, and silence truth.

My point is:  Individuals cannot be trusted with such power.  AS WE ARE SEEING.  Even large groups of people will abuse it - like the Chinese Communist Party.  Much less a small cadre of young people with zero life experiences, often sexually twisted; many of them, autistic.  The autistics do well in computer programming.

They have that power, now.  Not over me, directly - I don't use their garbage.  I pay cash for what I buy.  But I have to live in the world they're making...an insane world filled with rage-filled NPCs.

----------


## Mr. Independent

@JustPassinThru - In an earlier part of this thread you were pro-technology, see #9.

Not that I am against all technology, I respect all older tech, plus the more primitive "basic" forms of the ones we have today like movie theaters, television, radio, phones. But I am more skeptical of this "newer and more advanced is always better" mentality.

----------


## JustPassinThru

> @JustPassinThru - In an earlier part of this thread you were pro-technology, see #9.
> 
> Not that I am against all technology, I respect all older tech, plus the more primitive "basic" forms of the ones we have today like movie theaters, television, radio, phones. But I am more skeptical of this "newer and more advanced is always better" mentality.


I'm pro-technology that works.  I'm not a Luddite.

But I don't think much of watches with hundred-page instruction manuals.  I STILL cannot program my car radio.  I almost got locked out of my smartphone after the stupid assholes who manage the database, forced an "update" on it - that reset all my passwords and settings.  Probably the "update" was to slow performance down - as Timmy Cook, the Head Fruit of the Cupertino Fruit Company, has new phones to move, that aren't selling.

Joke is on him.  I use it as a PHONE, and occasionally as a GPS.  I don't surf on it or watch videos on it...who wants to watch today's horrid movies, watch them ANYWHERE?

Improvement is grand.  Needless complexity, and the inability to tell between the two...that's the bane of our existence.

----------


## nonsqtr

> I'm pro-technology that works.  I'm not a Luddite.
> 
> But I don't think much of watches with hundred-page instruction manuals.  I STILL cannot program my car radio.  I almost got locked out of my smartphone after the stupid assholes who manage the database, forced an "update" on it - that reset all my passwords and settings.  Probably the "update" was to slow performance down - as Timmy Cook, the Head Fruit of the Cupertino Fruit Company, has new phones to move, that aren't selling.
> 
> Joke is on him.  I use it as a PHONE, and occasionally as a GPS.  I don't surf on it or watch videos on it...who wants to watch today's horrid movies, watch them ANYWHERE?
> 
> Improvement is grand.  Needless complexity, and the inability to tell between the two...that's the bane of our existence.


Too many pushbuttons.

I like knobs.

----------


## patrickt

> I can imagine the possibility of at least an attempted neo-Luddite rise and revolution.
> 
> The tech and machines are virtually an example of socialism and communism in action if you really think about it. Think, there is no gender or race or other difference in human qualities. That men are able to become pregnant. Women can have children without relying on the male partner. That private companies using big-tech have a stranglehold monopoly on distribution and marketing of all goods and services. Like one or two large streaming companies having 95-99% complete control over all modern and classic (of course watered down or banned completely) forms of media. We are all living our social and work virtual lives with physical social interaction and labor being restricted.
> 
> No wonder that the concept of socialism is rapidly gaining momentum in the last 10 years than before, I believe this is part of it or that the momentum is being accelerated by it. Some people can argue about the benefits, but I would figure that both tech and big socialism are eventually taking us down virtually the same kind of path.
> 
> And what this year has taught us that if people are crazy enough to want to burn down and destroy their own entire cities, then a group of determined people might be crazy (or bold) enough to burn and destroy robots and machine tech one day.


Not me. I like my machine. I enjoy my smartphone and my Lenovo Duet. I like my smart speaker that answers trivia questions for me. I like the instrument panel on Acer Spin 713. I like my coffee maker, my toaster oven, my refrigerator, and my hot water heater.

Now, what is it you think I should get rid of.

----------


## Mr. Independent

> It gives greater and greater power to those who use and understand it.
> 
> When our technology was sticks, anyone who could pick up or break off a stick, could be armed.  When we advanced to axes, and then blunderbusses...someone had to make them.  And then the owner or user, trained.
> 
> Now, with technology in silicon valves and switches, and reams and reams of code...only someone with YEARS of training could see how it works.  And only someone who understood how to weaponize it, could apply it.  Be it, a smart-bomb or a web search engine with a rigged algorithm.
> 
> And them an evil autistic genius like Zuck the Cuck, who figured out how to monetize all the data that low-intellect users fed into his program-platform.  And then use THAT power, to promote dishonest assertions, and silence truth.
> 
> My point is:  Individuals cannot be trusted with such power.  AS WE ARE SEEING.  Even large groups of people will abuse it - like the Chinese Communist Party.  Much less a small cadre of young people with zero life experiences, often sexually twisted; many of them, autistic.  The autistics do well in computer programming.
> ...


Were you suggesting that all "autistic" people are crazy evil people?

----------


## JustPassinThru

No, I'm suggesting these tech tyrants are evil and twisted.

Also autistic.  

Does this guy look normal to you?



I've heard an interview with a college acquaintance and partner - they were on the same floor of the same dorm at Harvard, and then Zuck asked him to help him out on a "project."  Which the guy never got paid for.   It was to this guy that Zuck said, "All these people give me all this personal information for nothing.  Dumb fucks."

Billy the Gate.  I don't have any stupid-looking photos of him about - probably Microsquish has a whole department screening photo hosts to find photos that then get blocked or removed - but let's consider him.  He left a job at Hewlett-Packard, to go build his company - which was to PUBLISH COMPUTER GAMES.  Does that sound like a rational dream?...or something an autistic would do?  It was his association with Steve Jobs, which was mostly NOT friendly, that steered Gates into reverse-engineering the GUI and using it for a shell overlaid on DOS.

And he had his first billion before he had a wife.  Probably before he even got laid.  

That's autistic.  Someone who's got those kinds of social and interpersonal problems, PLUS somehow finds himself with money and power...is now no longer amoral.  He's DANGEROUS.

As we see.

----------

