# Politics and News > Rants, Opinions, Observations >  Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, make me believe it went down the way they said they did

## Guest

I think that is is more than a little interesting that many of the same people who complain about the lamestream media, about the purpose of Fast and Furious, of the lies about Benghazi, about Trollitano, about Holder and the corruption, tricks, and lies about this administration are jumping on the "guilty until proven innocent" campaign on this one.

I'm not saying he did or did not do it because, once again, _I don't know what happened_.

What I do know is that I hate being railroaded by the media into believing the official story at all times.  The wording, the tones, the everything has stopped being objective.

So, let me be Miss Conspiracy gal, and someone-- please, please convince me by giving me your take on the following questions.

I want this to be a serious discussion, sans logical fallacies.  That means, no "appeal to ridicule", no "ad hominem", no "straw man", no "bandwagon", no "gambler's fallacy".

Let's do this!  Explain to me why all of the below concerns mean naught and that I should jump on the "He's guilty, burn him!" express train.

~_Should be fun and we'll all learn something 

This I found disturbing about this case and have prompted me to take a wait and see.

1. The Saudi that was "deported":  He was "deported", not sent home of his own volition, and now suddenly no one wants to talk about it, Napolitano says that it is insignificant in spite of his known Al Qaida ties
2. All of the pictures sent by 4chan of middle eastern looking people with sagging, rounded backpacks in some pictures, and then later backpacks gone--if they were runners, why aren't they running, and why did they drop their backpacks?
3. The FBI had them in custody and let them go??? Conspiracy to commit an act of terror is also a charge.  If they FBI had enough "data" to pull them in, then they had telephone calls, emails, and microwave "tapping"--if they can scoop up a Rodriguez with that info and hold him when he hadn't sold a drug in years, you can do the same to people in a terror case
4. Cops all have paramilitary equipment with body armor, kevlar, assault rifles, flash bombs, light armor tanks, and they had the media tell people that a "dozen police" engaged in a firefight with the two men, that the men fought off the cops, the teen stole a police car, and evaded them all day UNTIL prime time.  Given that only the oldest left the country (note citizenship rules) and Massachusetts is not exactly a place where a teen making grades good enough to enter MIT can find a lengthy period of time to get trained like a US Marine, this seems "odd"
5. Media reaction--they fed multiple stories at all time, constantly updating what we should think and feel
6. Putin offered to send the US "help"
7. They're Chechens.  Chechens do not see the US as the "Great Satan", they see Russia as that.
8. The public reaction of politicians after the fact is to withdraw liberties like the 5th amendment and call him an enemy combatant
9. This happened after Obama got his ass handed to him by Rand on the drone issue
10. They will not read him his Miranda rights due to some bullshit "public safety" crap they just made up


This is enough for now.
_

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Network (04-20-2013)

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## Calypso Jones

Jahar is an obama supporter.   this is inconvenient for the media.   I'm sure they can handle it as they handled the Gosnell trial.  And low info voters will never be the wiser.

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## Guest

I think, honestly, that this was one of the entrapment stings gone wrong.  I think we used those kids to help get some others and then some of the others turned out to be "untouchable", like the deported Saudi.

We will get a confession out of him by saying: If you confess to this, we'll send you home, and then, without the presence of a lawyer, he'll say it and there it is.

Something STINKS about that Saudi being *deported* and not Trollitano doesn't want to talk about it--

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Calypso Jones (04-20-2013),Trinnity (04-20-2013)

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## usfan

I think it is a travesty that they are denying him his rights as a citizen.  Sure, maybe we shouldn't be allowing terrorist who hate america to  cut to the front of the line & become citizens, but that is another topic, & water under the bridge.  He is an american citizen, not an 'enemy combatant'.  I think it is a BAD precedent for other future citizens if they can suspend due process for some notion of 'the greater good', or other justification.

Give him a fair trial, & if he's guilty, hang him.  Let's not drag this out for years, until all is forgotten & all the tender hearted & minded people begin to feel sorry for the poor immigrant.  This nation is full of poor immigrants.. that is our makeup.  How about some justice?

If he's found not guilty, & it's a conspiracy, like some are suggesting, burn the people who trumped up the charges, & find the ones responsible.  How about some justice?

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Kabuki Joe (04-23-2013),Rain (04-20-2013)

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## Guest

> I think it is a travesty that they are denying him his rights as a citizen.  Sure, maybe we shouldn't be allowing terrorist who hate america to  cut to the front of the line & become citizens, but that is another topic, & water under the bridge.  He is an american citizen, not an 'enemy combatant'.  I think it is a BAD precedent for other future citizens if they can suspend due process for some notion of 'the greater good', or other justification.
> 
> Give him a fair trial, & if he's guilty, hang him.  Let's not drag this out for years, until all is forgotten & all the tender hearted & minded people begin to feel sorry for the poor immigrant.  This nation is full of poor immigrants.. that is our makeup.  How about some justice?


AMEN!




> If he's found not guilty, & it's a conspiracy, like some are suggesting, burn the people who trumped up the charges, & find the ones responsible.  How about some justice?


Won't happen... but it's a lovely fantasy.   :Smile:

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## Guest

This was an MIT student--unless they are lying about that, too.  No one thought he was violent.  Agencies sometimes recruit people out of these schools.  It could be that he was a sting gone wrong...I can't help thinking the Saudi had something to do with this.

I mean, it's the way everything has been presented.  I think they were hoping to find another patsy that made sense and when it didn't happen, these guys panned out.  I think they wanted to find some right winger to blame it on, and then stuck with them at the last.

1. FBI had been meeting with him and no charges
2. Bomb drills that day enabled people to let their guards down
3. Saudi is deported with ties to AQ?? 
4. Government clearly does NOT want to talk about the Saudi
5. There are pictures of the older one instructing women in self defense and he's smiling a genuine, not fake smile like he doesn't hate women and/or doesn't look down on them
6. MIT?  You put that much time and money into a degree when you're going to die?  All the other hijackers used the "Jihad get out of jail free card" and went to strip clubs, had lavish parties, drank, etc. (allegedly)  Why go to a school where you eat homework for breakfast?
7. Jihadists kill themselves so they go to Heaven.  Why not strap a bomb to yourself and let it blow?
8. An MIT student with any reading skills knows there are CTV cameras everywhere, infrared, and the feds questioned him, if he meant to kill himself, too...I can see throwing caution away on the cameras,et c.and not wear glasses.  BUT, if you plan on living...come on?  You're walking around face exposed?

This stuff doesn't make sense.

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## usfan

> Won't happen... but it's a lovely fantasy.


If there is no justice from our govt, it is failing in it's most basic duty.  IF all we have is political corruption, fleecing of the taxpayers, cronyism, & intrigue, it is time for the citizens to break out the pitchforks & the torches & chase the monsters from the village.  A more vocal, indignant citizenry could do wonders for the nation.  But it seems we are content to let the propagandists tell us what to think & believe.  We're more concerned with snooki & the kardashians than with governance.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-20-2013)

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

I think they are innocent. And this is more than "innocent until proven guilty." I actually believe the Tsarnaev brothers are innocent.

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## Guest

> I think they are innocent. And this is more than "innocent until proven guilty." I actually believe the Tsarnaev brothers are innocent.


I think they were part of a sting that went to hell and they will hang for it.  The stuff with the Saudi doesn't sit well, the stuff with the FBI questioning them and releasing them--especially in light of these events...I dunno.  ::shakes head::

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-20-2013)

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## Dan40

> I think that is is more than a little interesting that many of the same people who complain about the lamestream media, about the purpose of Fast and Furious, of the lies about Benghazi, about Trollitano, about Holder and the corruption, tricks, and lies about this administration are jumping on the "guilty until proven innocent" campaign on this one.
> 
> I'm not saying he did or did not do it because, once again, _I don't know what happened_.
> 
> What I do know is that I hate being railroaded by the media into believing the official story at all times.  The wording, the tones, the everything has stopped being objective.
> 
> So, let me be Miss Conspiracy gal, and someone-- please, please convince me by giving me your take on the following questions.
> 
> I want this to be a serious discussion, sans logical fallacies.  That means, no "appeal to ridicule", no "ad hominem", no "straw man", no "bandwagon", no "gambler's fallacy".
> ...


Your questions, 1, 4 & 7.

1.  Saudi Arabia has 2 kinds of citizens.  Dirt poor and Royal family members and relatives.  The dirt poor aren't here.  Royal family members have diplomatic immunity.  All we can do is send them home, we cannot arrest or prosecute them.

4. A "bullet RESISTANT vest" is meaningless when someone is SHOOTING at you.  I've been shot at and hit.  There is an extremely high pucker factor.  The military expends about A BILLION rounds for every enemy hit.  In actual combat it is over 10,000 rounds for each enemy hit, not killed, hit!  Some of the police videos on the reality shows have shown both a perp and an officer blasting away at each other from no more than 5 feet away.  Multiple rounds fired by each.  The perp jumps in a car and speeds away.  The perp was hit once, the officer, was unhurt.  A dozen rounds from 5 feet.  Reality, its hard to deal with compared to movies.  John Wayne was NEVER a soldier.

7.  *Chechnya*, is a muslim nation and is in league with alqaeda.  They do hate Russia more than they hate the USA.  But they are muslims.

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## Dan40

> This was an MIT student--unless they are lying about that, too.  No one thought he was violent.  Agencies sometimes recruit people out of these schools.  It could be that he was a sting gone wrong...I can't help thinking the Saudi had something to do with this.
> 
> I mean, it's the way everything has been presented.  I think they were hoping to find another patsy that made sense and when it didn't happen, these guys panned out.  I think they wanted to find some right winger to blame it on, and then stuck with them at the last.
> 
> 1. FBI had been meeting with him and no charges
> 2. Bomb drills that day enabled people to let their guards down
> 3. Saudi is deported with ties to AQ?? 
> 4. Government clearly does NOT want to talk about the Saudi
> 5. There are pictures of the older one instructing women in self defense and he's smiling a genuine, not fake smile like he doesn't hate women and/or doesn't look down on them
> ...


#7.  Jihadists go to heaven for killing non-believers.  NOT for killing themselves.  Heaven is the reward for killing the Great Satanists infidels by sacrificing one's own life.  Suicide is prohibited by islam, but if infidels are killed in the process then its rewarded.  That's the kind of pure bullshit lying religion we're up against.

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Calypso Jones (04-20-2013)

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## Guest

> #7.  Jihadists go to heaven for killing non-believers.  NOT for killing themselves.  Heaven is the reward for killing the Great Satanists infidels by sacrificing one's own life.  Suicide is prohibited by islam, but if infidels are killed in the process then its rewarded.  That's the kind of pure bullshit lying religion we're up against.


Both, actually.  Like the Vikings they mean to do their duty and go to Heaven for all the sex.

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## Guest

> Your questions, 1, 4 & 7.
> 
> 1.  Saudi Arabia has 2 kinds of citizens.  Dirt poor and Royal family members and relatives.  The dirt poor aren't here.  Royal family members have diplomatic immunity.  All we can do is send them home, we cannot arrest or prosecute them.


Yep




> 4. A "bullet RESISTANT vest" is meaningless when someone is SHOOTING at you.  I've been shot at and hit.  There is an extremely high pucker factor.  The military expends about A BILLION rounds for every enemy hit.  In actual combat it is over 10,000 rounds for each enemy hit, not killed, hit!  Some of the police videos on the reality shows have shown both a perp and an officer blasting away at each other from no more than 5 feet away.  Multiple rounds fired by each.  The perp jumps in a car and speeds away.  The perp was hit once, the officer, was unhurt.  A dozen rounds from 5 feet.  Reality, its hard to deal with compared to movies.  John Wayne was NEVER a soldier.


Again, explain how a 19 year old with no military training managed to engage in a firefight, steal a cop car, and get away and stay hidden until prime time television was on?




> 7.  *Chechnya*, is a muslim nation and is in league with alqaeda.  They do hate Russia more than they hate the USA.  But they are muslims.


Yes, and people from Chechnya are called "Chechens", not "Chechnyans".  They are Muslims, but Muslims from Chechnya think that Russia is anti-Islamic and have more of a bugger up their ass about Russians than the US.

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## kk8

> I think they were part of a sting that went to hell and they will hang for it.  The stuff with the Saudi doesn't sit well, the stuff with the FBI questioning them and releasing them--especially in light of these events...I dunno.  ::shakes head::


I have to say....I agree with you Rina.  None of this makes sense.  I think this was a set-up.  I don't like conspiracies....but this whole thing stinks to high heaven.  I want to know, why Obama met with the Saudi...but we never will.  I want to know why...within 2 days...the Saudi was being cleared for deportation.  I want to know....with a manhunt the size and scope that it was, HOW THE HELL this kid got away the first time they had the brothers...and the one (just happened) to be shot (how many times???).  I want to know what happened to the pictures of the other two Arab men in the first photos...why haven't we heard from them, if indeed they were innocent?  Where is the proof that the brother that was killed had a bomb strapped to him?  Where is the proof that the other brother had explosives?  Or even a weapon for that matter?  

If (God help us) these two brothers were innocent...after all the "fake" news was being reported about you...where in the hell could they have hidden/went/trusted at that point?  I do believe that under this administration...there could be a massive cover-up going on (like Benghazi) question is....will we keep asking questions?  Or, will we (like apparently all of law enforcement) seal this kids fate, without question?  Why no miranda?  This is all just too F'd up for me!

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-20-2013)

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## Network

It's quite unfortunate that you are still buying into that much of the story, following a trail of conspiracy candy.  

Case is closed on this one, that shit was as fake as the Family Guy episode that foreshadowed it.

A lot of foreshadowing going on with the past 3 events.  No, I don't believe in 0.0000001 chance coincidences, cuz I'm not an idiot.

<lizards with cigars are laughing>

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## Guest

> I have to say....I agree with you Rina.  None of this makes sense.  I think this was a set-up.  I don't like conspiracies....but this whole thing stinks to high heaven.  I want to know, why Obama met with the Saudi...but we never will.  I want to know why...within 2 days...the Saudi was being cleared for deportation.  I want to know....with a manhunt the size and scope that it was, HOW THE HELL this kid got away the first time they had the brothers...and the one (just happened) to be shot (how many times???).  I want to know what happened to the pictures of the other two Arab men in the first photos...why haven't we heard from them, if indeed they were innocent?  Where is the proof that the brother that was killed had a bomb strapped to him?  Where is the proof that the other brother had explosives?  Or even a weapon for that matter?  
> 
> If (God help us) these two brothers were innocent...after all the "fake" news was being reported about you...where in the hell could they have hidden/went/trusted at that point?  I do believe that under this administration...there could be a massive cover-up going on (like Benghazi) question is....will we keep asking questions?  Or, will we (like apparently all of law enforcement) seal this kids fate, without question?  Why no miranda?  This is all just too F'd up for me!



Yes, it is very, very weird.  Nothing is according to their usual protocols, none of this makes a bit of real sense.  They needed to find people to put the blame on and they did.  They also go some help and kudos from Putin.

Putin.

Now, as much as I admit to a bizarre fascination with him and put his TIME cover framed on my wall because I think he's deadly sexy...I don't exactly _trust_ him to do anything that isn't good for Russia first.

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## Guest

> <lizards with cigars are laughing>


I'm sure they laugh a lot.

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## Network

Gore Inspector at your services.



http://letsrollforums.com/my-boston-...t29401p22.html

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## Network

I'm sorry.  I better leave this event alone.

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## DDave

> So, let me be Miss Conspiracy gal, and someone-- please, please convince me by giving me your take on the following questions.


I got a "Mention" notification on this thread but I see that you later removed them.  :Smiley20: 

At any rate, after reading your postings in other threads I am scratching my head more and more about the information that we are given.  So, Miss Justifiably Skeptical, I've got nothing to offer to make you believe it went down the way it did.  I'm not so sure _I_ believe that it went down the way it did.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-20-2013)

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## Guest

> I got a "Mention" notification on this thread but I see that you later removed them. 
> 
> At any rate, after reading your postings in other threads I am scratching my head more and more about the information that we are given.  So, Miss Justifiably Skeptical, I've got nothing to offer to make you believe it went down the way it did.  I'm not so sure _I_ believe that it went down the way it did.


That's interesting, @DDave.  I appreciate your saying it to me.

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## Maximatic

> I got a "Mention" notification on this thread but I see that you later removed them. 
> 
> At any rate, after reading your postings in other threads I am scratching my head more and more about the information that we are given.  So, Miss Justifiably Skeptical, I've got nothing to offer to make you believe it went down the way it did.  I'm not so sure _I_ believe that it went down the way it did.


I believe it went down the way it did.

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## Rain

Yes, it went down the way it did.  I'm just not sure we know "the way it did"!

You're sharp as ever Max!

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## DDave

> That's interesting, @DDave.  I appreciate your saying it to me.


Well, you've, shall we say, encouraged me to take a closer look at some info that I had been dismissive of in the past.




> I believe it went down the way it did.


 :Smiley20:   Good catch.  How sloppy of me.  I don't know if I believe that it went down the way *they* say it did. 

Whoever _they_ are.  :Thinking: 




> Gore Inspector at your services.
> http://letsrollforums.com/my-boston-...t29401p22.html


Yes, yes, the crack team of basement dwelling Internet detectives over at Let's Roll with their crack photo and video analysis skills are hot on the case showing the world how it never happened and was all faked.  Nothing but stage props and bad acting.  :Loco: 

Just like 9/11, just like Aurora, just like Newtown, just like when some dumbass backed their boat trailer down the side of my truck while I was out water skiing at a local lake 15 years ago.  I'm sure that was a false flag too. 

Jayhan and his merry band of ass clowns give justifiably skeptical people a bad name.

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## Dan40

> Yep
> 
> 
> 
> Again, explain how a 19 year old with no military training managed to engage in a firefight, steal a cop car, and get away and stay hidden until prime time television was on?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and people from Chechnya are called "Chechens", not "Chechnyans".  They are Muslims, but Muslims from Chechnya think that Russia is anti-Islamic and *have more of a bugger up their ass about Russians than the US.*




I can lead a horse to water but I can't make you roll over and bark.

*have more of a bugger up their ass about Russians than the US.

So they hate us both.  We should ignore insane killers because they'd also kill somebody else to?
*

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> [/B]
> 
> I can lead a horse to water but I can't make you roll over and bark.
> 
> *have more of a bugger up their ass about Russians than the US.
> 
> So they hate us both.  We should ignore insane killers because they'd also kill somebody else to?
> *


Actually, the fact that they hate Russia more than us is a good reason for them to _not_ kill us. Or, it was, anyway. Up until after the bombing, we had been pretty frosty with Russia. Almost enemies, really. It would give any enemy of Russia good reason to want our help.

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## Guest

> [/B]
> 
> I can lead a horse to water but I can't make you roll over and bark.
> 
> *have more of a bugger up their ass about Russians than the US.
> 
> So they hate us both.  We should ignore insane killers because they'd also kill somebody else to?
> *


No, they don't hate us both.  They hate Russia because Russia has been hideous to them.  I am from that part of the world, have lived there--in fact, I lived there when Chechens did a suicide bomb run.  

There is something fishy about this.  I think you are ignoring how many acts of terror Chechens have inflicted on Russians.  The US was off their radar and the tension between the US and Russia made us more their "friend" and why he came here in the first place.

I think these guys were helping the government in a fake sting and something went wrong because the people they were going to testify against have diplomatic immunity.  I think this is a Fast and Furious type of fuck up on our part and this administration has had too many of them.

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## Network

> Well, you've, shall we say, encouraged me to take a closer look at some info that I had been dismissive of in the past.
> 
> 
> 
>   Good catch.  How sloppy of me.  I don't know if I believe that it went down the way *they* say it did. 
> 
> Whoever _they_ are. 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, DDave, but at least this time they included some obviously fake gore, unlike the last two, where there was no evidence of any sort of death.  Suddenly ok to show mangled Hollywood props? 

I think they were wanting to give people more to believe in, since only loyal clueless morons could believe in the last two events.

I'm sorry you believe in cartoons, it can't be healthy.

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## Guest

Hello, @Network, causing trouble again, I see.   :Smile:  

I just want you to know I can't be a part of yours and Bimmy's basketball thread now that I know he's a Derek Jeter fan.

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## Network

> Hello, @Network, causing trouble again, I see.   
> 
> I just want you to know I can't be a part of yours and Bimmy's basketball thread now that I know he's a Derek Jeter fan.




I believe you are causing the trouble by not recognizing the ridiculous staged events, fake ass blood and cyborg props...along with no evidence at all from the 2nd bombing site.

You're chasing conspiracy media trails.  You're shameful and should be castrated in front of DDave.

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## Guest

> I believe you are causing the trouble by not recognizing the ridiculous staged events, fake ass blood and cyborg props...along with no evidence at all from the 2nd bombing site.
> 
> You're chasing conspiracy media trails.  You're shameful and should be castrated in front of DDave.


Are you saying I have balls?

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## Network

> Are you saying I have balls?



I'm saying that you're a sacrificial lamb and fake bloodstain on truth.

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## Guest

> I'm saying that you're a sacrificial lamb and fake bloodstain on truth.


I see.  At least its ritualistic.  Rituals are cool...even fake ones.

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## Network

The smoke clears and 140 are injured. 

We wheel off uninjured people 1x2x3x4x5 before taking double ampi off the scene.  Bloodless and upright, saved by a Mexican Cowboy with American flag in hand, he is resilient.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Yes, DDave, but at least this time they included some obviously fake gore, unlike the last two, where there was no evidence of any sort of death.  Suddenly ok to show mangled Hollywood props? 
> 
> I think they were wanting to give people more to believe in, since only loyal clueless morons could believe in the last two events.
> 
> I'm sorry you believe in cartoons, it can't be healthy.


Would it kill you to not be an ass for just ONE tragedy? I mean, I know you think this whole "It's a hoax! Nobody died!" shit makes you look cute, but it doesn't, and it makes actual conspiracy theorists like me and @Rina_Dragonborn look like crazy idiots instead of smart people with legitimate questions.

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## DDave

> Yes, DDave, but at least this time they included some obviously fake gore, unlike the last two, where there was no evidence of any sort of death.  Suddenly ok to show mangled Hollywood props? 
> 
> I think they were wanting to give people more to believe in, since only loyal clueless morons could believe in the last two events.
> 
> I'm sorry you believe in cartoons, it can't be healthy.


Yeah, whatever.  And all the witnesses and folks at the scene were paid actors, right?  EVERYONE was in on it, NO ONE will spill the beans, and no one was injured or died.

But anyway, I don't want to go down that road with you since I really do admire the fact that you don't attack like the pack dogs at LRF.

I do have a question though . . . isn't it enough to blame the government for every bad event and believe that the gov is finding patsies and killing a few citizens here and there to further their agenda?  Why is it necessary to "prove" that it was all faked using stage props and actors?  I mean, you certainly believe the government is capable of murdering a few pesky citizens for the greater good, aren't you?

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## Network

> Would it kill you to not be an ass for just ONE tragedy? I mean, I know you think this whole "It's a hoax! Nobody died!" shit makes you look cute, but it doesn't, and it makes actual conspiracy theorists like me and @Rina_Dragonborn look like crazy idiots instead of smart people with legitimate questions.


Come again?

Mexican with an American flag hero is still there and there are 5 _injured_ people.

You think I don't really believe what I say?  I know these are all hoaxes and think you are all idiots for not realizing it, just FYI.

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## DDave

> Would it kill you to not be an ass for just ONE tragedy? I mean, I know you think this whole "It's a hoax! Nobody died!" shit makes you look cute, but it doesn't, and it makes actual conspiracy theorists like me and @Rina_Dragonborn look like crazy idiots instead of smart people with legitimate questions.


It's hard for me to tell with Network at this point because he seems to have so much self control and appears pretty intelligent.  I'm not 100% sure if he believes that shit or if he is just yanking chains.  But I am convinced that  those crazy fuckers at LRF are completely convinced and buy into all of the horseshit, (they call it "research" over there) that is posted.

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## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Come again?
> 
> Mexican with an American flag hero is still there and there are 5 _injured_ people.
> 
> You think I don't really believe what I say?  I know these are all hoaxes and think you are all idiots for not realizing it, just FYI.


Well, the feeling is mutual. There's evidence three people died and scores of others were injured, and no amount of your assuming what is going on "behind the scenes" in a picture here and there change that. 

Now, you have two choices: set aside the childish and shallow "hoax" argument and actually help solve this thing and bring the real culprits accountable, or keep flailing at ridiculous, untenable arguments that accomplish nothing. 

Whatcha got?

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## Network

> It's hard for me to tell with Network at this point because he seems to have so much self control and appears pretty intelligent.  I'm not 100% sure if he believes that shit or if he is just yanking chains.  But I am convinced that  those crazy fuckers at LRF are completely convinced and buy into all of the horseshit, (they call it "research" over there) that is posted.



And I think you haven't attempted to explain the photo above with half of 140 injured, smoke still clearing, nor have you questioned why we have no photos of the 2nd site.

The past 3 were complete hoaxes and I doubt anyone died.  911, you can think what you want, but much of the same bullshit was going on.

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## DDave

> Well, the feeling is mutual. There's evidence three people died and scores of others were injured, and no amount of your assuming what is going on "behind the scenes" in a picture here and there change that.


Same LRF MO . . . take some still photos and blow them up . . . "analyze" them and find some "details" deemed "inconsistent" by the "researchers" at LRF and proclaim it as "evidence" of a hoax.  Then take some videos of the witnesses and family members and point out how they didn't cry enough or they cried too much or this or that which points to "obvious actors".  Mix the two together and proclaim that you have "proof" that it was all faked.  Then the, I believe Network used the correct phrase, "loyal clueless morons" at LRF will all fondle themselves and you and tell you what a great researcher you are.

If you're really bored some time, you ought to pop over there and read all about the hollow empty WTC towers, fake shuttering systems on the windows, and the smoke machines that were used on 9/11.

It would be funny if it wasn't all so tragic and obvious that adults in our society actually seem to believe this nonsense.




> Now, you have two choices: set aside the childish and shallow "hoax" argument and actually help solve this thing and bring the real culprits accountable, or keep flailing at ridiculous, untenable arguments that accomplish nothing. 
> 
> Whatcha got?


It's sort of ironic that some conspiracy theorists say most don't want to believe that their government is capable of plotting and killing a few folks to further their agenda.  Then there are the nuts who want to believe that hey, no one died.  It was all made up.  No one was hurt.  But the evil government is tricking you.  

If they're so evil, why is it so hard to believe that they killed real people?

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-20-2013)

----------


## Guest

_If they're so evil, why is it so hard to believe that they killed real people?_


^^^^This.
 @Network and I disagree on this point.  Why pay actors when you can kill people?  We have NO PROBLEM invading and bombing the fuck out of sovereign nations that supplied not ONE of the alleged 911 hijackers.  These guys aren't afraid to kill.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-20-2013)

----------


## Network

Look at the name callers with no evidence.

Show me the most gruesome evidence you can find of Jeff, the guy who tossed around in an empty scene with no legs for 3 minutes while non-injured people were wheeled away for no reason, and I will show you the fakery in his Mexican Cowboy hero scene.  

For now, you can just think about the idiocy in this video.  Jeff at 2:30

----------


## Network

> _If they're so evil, why is it so hard to believe that they killed real people?_
> 
> 
> ^^^^This.
>  @Network and I disagree on this point.  Why pay actors when you can kill people?  We have NO PROBLEM invading and bombing the fuck out of sovereign nations that supplied not ONE of the alleged 911 hijackers.  These guys aren't afraid to kill.



Because WE enjoy laughing at you.  

Why predict the last 3 events in Hollywood?  These Russians are obviously guilty.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

Tell ya what, Network. I didn't want to go this far with you, but I will. 

I am one phone call away from a real person who witnessed the bombing. Not some random paid actor, either. Someone I am loosely acquainted with. 

Can you match that, or is second-hand all you have?

----------


## Guest

@Network

I have a hard time with this one because of ...you know my story.  I will say this, I think that some of the pictures MAY have been enhanced to get a little more sympathy.  My husband's friend died after getting both legs blown off and the loss of blood was just too much even with field tourniquets performed by military paramedics.  So, yes, I'm skeptical of that picture because you couldn't lose them where they were lost in that photo and live, IMO. I think he lost them lower down and they needed something more gruesome.

Someone lost legs and that someone will show up on the news, in court, etc.  You can't hide that.

So I think to the dude who lost two legs...I owe him the respect of understanding his loss.  While I think the pictures were enhanced, if a guy lost both his legs and managed to live...I'd like to give him some respect.

IF, however, no one lost their legs and the joke is on ME and everyone else, they will have to live with that.

----------


## Guest

> Because WE enjoy laughing at you.  
> 
> Why predict the last 3 events in Hollywood?  These Russians are obviously guilty.



Why predict?  You know why I think these things are in movies.  It's a ritual.

----------


## Network

....give me something from site #2

you never will...

----------


## The XL

Network vs Thinker is gonna be closer than the Henderson/Melendez fight.  I hope we have good judges.

----------



----------


## Network

Thinker has faith on his side.  

He can't believe he's been so duped....in political affiliation or reality.

People think that reality is crazy at first so I try to softly introduce them to the fact that they live in the Truman Show.  But then, they start calling me names and I have to throw an uppercut.

----------


## Guest

> Network vs Thinker is gonna be closer than the Henderson/Melendez fight.  I hope we have good judges.


How did the UFC card go?  They were watching it at the party but I was pissy and didn't watch it because drunk men are stupid.

----------


## DDave

> And I think you haven't attempted to explain the photo above with half of 140 injured, smoke still clearing,


It's not up to me to explain it to you.




> nor have  you questioned why we have no photos of the 2nd site.


It wouldn't matter anyway.  The photos are all faked.  Remember?  Interesting circular logic the LRF folks use . . . NO photo evidence proves it never happened.  ALL photo evidence is deemed to have "inconsistencies" by the "researchers" during their "analysis" which "proves" it was all a hoax..  Same with video.




> The past 3 were complete hoaxes and I doubt anyone died.


Do you believe no one died because it is too scary to think that your government would just kill people like that?




> Look at the name callers *with no evidence.*


You owe me an new irony meter.  You just overloaded mine. :Smiley20: 




> Because WE enjoy laughing at you.


Well, I've got news for you.  That laughing sound you hear is not you laughing at us.

I do appreciate your input though.  :Thumbsup20:

----------


## The XL

> How did the UFC card go?  They were watching it at the party but I was pissy and didn't watch it because drunk men are stupid.


It was actually really good aside from the Mir vs Cormier fight.  That one was boring.

----------


## The XL

Am I am the only who doesn't care if it was a total hoax or an inside job?  The end result is the same, regardless.

----------



----------


## Network

Well done stuttering Dave, but I'm the only one who has presented any evidence in our past encounters.  

I've presented evidence as to why I think these are Hollywood episodes, and the shitstain media (your source) have presented nothing in their past 3 episodes, other than indications that they are laughing at you.

----------


## Maximatic

> Am I am the only who doesn't care if it was a total hoax or an inside job?


No.

----------

The XL (04-20-2013)

----------


## Guest

> Tell ya what, Network. I didn't want to go this far with you, but I will. 
> 
> I am one phone call away from a real person who witnessed the bombing. Not some random paid actor, either. Someone I am loosely acquainted with. 
> 
> Can you match that, or is second-hand all you have?


Trina, do you know how awful I am and don't turn off from the job?  Even tho you and I agree...I was about to go into "source amnesia" and "eye witness testimony" crap.

I was at a party tonight taking calls for the firm and having more fun talking to alleged traffickers than the people at the party.

I need to have a life outside my job.  I do.

----------


## Guest

> Am I am the only who doesn't care if it was a total hoax or an inside job?  The end result is the same, regardless.


I'm with you, homeboy.

----------

The XL (04-20-2013)

----------


## Network

I'd join with the "don't care" brigade too if I spent the past few days chasing lies.

----------


## Roadmaster

If they are guilty someone got to them and his older brother was no help. If I were on this case, I would find the ones who  helped them. They showed them to be cowards and never planned on being still alive but had other plans and bombs left. Looking overseas is useless, they had mentors here.

----------


## DDave

> Well done stuttering Dave, but I'm the only one who has presented any evidence in our past encounters.  
> 
> I've presented evidence as to why I think these are Hollywood episodes, and the shitstain media (your source) have presented nothing in their past 3 episodes, other than indications that they are laughing at you.


Oddly enough the "evidence" you claim to have presented, comes from the shitstain media.

Speculation and opinion do not equal evidence.  Amateur photo and video analysis do not equal evidence.  And I feel sorry for you if you ever meet one of the family members who lost a loved one in one of these "hoaxes".

----------

Kabuki Joe (04-23-2013)

----------


## Network

> Oddly enough the "evidence" you claim to have presented, comes from the shitstain media.
> 
> Speculation and opinion do not equal evidence.  Amateur photo and video analysis do not equal evidence.  And I feel sorry for you if you ever meet one of the family members who lost a loved one in one of these "hoaxes".



Don't worry, they don't know me.  I also don't believe in religions twisted from ancient tales.

----------


## Maximatic

> I'd join with the "don't care" brigade too if I spent the past few days chasing lies.


What if you had spent the last couple of days irritated by the fact that the discussion forum you frequent had turned into a media frenzy, trying over and over again to change the subject only to see the stupid threads keep coming?

----------

Network (04-20-2013)

----------


## The XL

> I'd join with the "don't care" brigade too if I spent the past few days chasing lies.


What's the difference in the end, though?

----------



----------


## Network

> What if you had spent the last couple of days irritated by the fact that the discussion forum you frequent had turned into a media frenzy, trying over and over again to change the subject only to see the stupid threads keep coming?



That's the same boat I'm hiding in.

----------


## DDave

> I also don't believe in religions twisted from ancient tales.


Seems like you believe in things much more far fetched.  

But if you'd be so kind as to answer just a few more questions, I'll stop with the :Deadhorse: 

You really and truly think that the last 3 were faked, no one died, and it's really possible to keep the number of people required to be "in on it" from talking?

----------


## Network

> What's the difference in the end, though?



Difference is, I want evidence from another scene.  It helps me to write my script about how American's are gullible fools.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> Thinker has faith on his side.  
> 
> He can't believe he's been so duped....in political affiliation or reality.
> 
> People think that reality is crazy at first so I try to softly introduce them to the fact that they live in the Truman Show.  But then, they start calling me names and I have to throw an uppercut.


I know someone who saw it happen. She was one of the marathon runners. Again, do you have better than a primary source? I would guess not, since you ignored my earlier question about it, but hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

----------


## Network

> I know someone who saw it happen. She was one of the marathon runners. Again, do you have better than a primary source? I would guess not, since you ignored my earlier question about it, but hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


I know that the flash, smoke, and bang happened.  I'm questioning the scenery of the actual bomb explosion, of which, we only have one scene.  And it's not convincing....to say the least.

----------


## The XL

> Difference is, I want evidence from another scene.  It helps me to write my script about how American's are gullible fools.


Sure, but what does it change?  All the same agendas will be pursued in its aftermath, including the precedent for martial law, like we saw over the past couple of days.

----------



----------


## Network

> Sure, but what does it change?  All the same agendas will be pursued in its aftermath, including the precedent for martial law, like we saw over the past couple of days.


Changes a lot if people realize the truth.  The truth is not that the Americans attacked America.  The truth is and has been that they are faking the shit out of these events.

But I understand your point.  Therefore, the point is only my Ego.

----------



----------


## Maximatic

> Sure, but what does it change?  All the same agendas will be pursued in its aftermath, including the precedent for martial law, like we saw over the past couple of days.


Yes. And other questions should be asked at this point. This story has dominated the news media to the point where anything else that has been happening has been ignored. What has been going on that we might want to know about? SISPA passed the house again. What else happened? What will the news cycle look like next time it hits the Senate?

----------



----------


## Roadmaster

> Difference is, I want evidence from another scene.  It helps me to write my script about how American's are gullible fools.


 Or you are paranoid.

----------


## Network

> Or you are paranoid.



Here's the point. ^

Above user has no suspicion or knowledge of anything.  Has not truly looked at the details of any event, but speaks their uninformed mind.

So tired of these people....that's the point.

----------


## Archer

All I know is I called it as others did. Our government is not directly but they are complacent and if they followed their own rules this may not have happened.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I know that the flash, smoke, and bang happened.  I'm questioning the scenery of the actual bomb explosion, of which, we only have one scene.  And it's not convincing....to say the least.


To you, but you go into these things with confirmation bias. You start from the position of "the government likes to invent tragedies but doesn't actually kill people to get their tragedy" and then look for evidence to confirm that suspicion.

If you really want to know the truth from actually credible sources (and no, nerds on the internet don't count), then I would be happy to take the pictures you have issues with to people I know and can trust who are experts in their field, and get their take. I'm not exactly government enemy number one, so I highly doubt my sources have been paid by the gov't to lie to me. 

But if you're just going to ignore their conclusion or find some silly reason to dismiss it, I won't bother.

----------


## Network

> To you, but you go into these things with confirmation bias. You start from the position of "the government likes to invent tragedies but doesn't actually kill people to get their tragedy" and then look for evidence to confirm that suspicion.
> 
> If you really want to know the truth from actually credible sources (and no, nerds on the internet don't count), then I would be happy to take the pictures you have issues with to people I know and can trust who are experts in their field, and get their take. I'm not exactly government enemy number one, so I highly doubt my sources have been paid by the gov't to lie to me. 
> 
> But if you're just going to ignore their conclusion or find some silly reason to dismiss it, I won't bother.



Yes, you can take the 10 publicized photographs where blood is present, and have them inspect the scene.  They released the gore already right, then where is the entire collection of photographs taken, beyond the 10 circulated by media?  Let's have those, because the 10 are...cough

----------


## Network

As the smoke still concentrates on the alleged epicenter of the bomb, the people have yet to tear down the flags, the metal fencing or the wooden fencing (which wasn't charred by a massively weak explosion)...20 people at most on the scene.  

what the wha.  I fear for the future when they've been pulling off these odd jobs for over a decade.  Sorry, you'll never convince me otherwise.  I guess I'm an idiot.

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

Why is it so hard to believe that our government would kill its own citizens and the media would edit the pictures to make it look more gory, and thus fuel more rage and terror and sympathy in the populace?

----------



----------


## Network

> Why is it so hard to believe that our government would kill its own citizens and the media would edit the pictures to make it look more gory, and thus fuel more rage and terror and sympathy in the populace?



I'm glad you've come that far, but I haven't traveled that far back.

Watch the video of the explosion.  Sorry, I don't think that was real audio or flash either.  lol...but in the video they immediately rip down the fencing, and what was posted above is one of the only pics you will find on the other side.

As for the* kaboom* videographer, he preferred not to capture the scene.  is what it is

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> I'm glad you've come that far, but I haven't traveled that far back.
> 
> Watch the video of the explosion.  Sorry, I don't think that was real audio or flash either.  lol...but in the video they immediately rip down the fencing, and what was posted above is one of the only pics you will find on the other side.
> 
> As for the* kaboom* videographer, he preferred not to capture the scene.  is what it is


Again, personal source who witnessed the bombing and the carnage. It happened. Three people died. Unless you think the government is hiding the three people that "allegedly" died in a mountain fortress to either live out the rest of their lives with all the other people that "fake" died, or is giving them all plastic surgery so they look like totally different people.

----------


## Network

> Again, personal source who witnessed the bombing and the carnage. It happened. Three people died. Unless you think the government is hiding the three people that "allegedly" died in a mountain fortress to either live out the rest of their lives with all the other people that "fake" died, or is giving them all plastic surgery so they look like totally different people.



Let's see what they witnessed.  Give us a full tale of their accounts.  Good stuff. 

Do you think DHS funds are limited? (answer is no, they are the thieving state)  

What would you do for a quick million?  What do the donations look like for these last few tragedies?

----------


## Network

The donations look fucking massive.

All we have to do is pretend that poor people are being terrorized, and we can have anarchy instead of statefare.

----------


## Network

Tahdah, chick shadows converge on Jeff, because he's a fucking miracle saved by a Mexican.

Sleepy people.






Ouch girls, your signs directed right at my pupils are burning my eyes...


Welcome to the fact that I am right, you thought I was crazy..insulted me, but you were wrong and you were living in the matrix.



HOLY FAKERY BATMAN

----------


## Trinnity

> Because WE enjoy laughing at you.  
> 
> Why predict the last 3 events in Hollywood?  These Russians are obviously guilty.


I don't know that they weren't set up. BUT, imo, they sure look guilty. They were photo'd at the scene, they had (and then didn't have) the backpacks on. The older brother was wearing a bomb when they caught him. They had rad youtubes. The g/f had a "terrorista" license plate. They were known to be rads. They had a following. IF they were set up, they made themselves candidates for it.

I don't trust the govt. I wouldn't put anything past this admin and it's puppet, the CIA. BUT they quacked like ducks. I don't believe all this conspiracy stuff that the govt set them up. <sorry>

I do think the Saudi student being deported is intriguing. Something there was hushed up.

----------

usfan (04-21-2013)

----------


## Guest

> I don't know that they weren't set up. BUT, imo, they sure look guilty. They were photo'd at the scene, they had (and then didn't have) the backpacks on. The older brother was wearing a bomb when they caught him. They had rad youtubes. The g/f had a "terrorista" license plate. They were known to be rads. They had a following. IF they were set up, they made themselves candidates for it.
> 
> I don't trust the govt. I wouldn't put anything past this admin and it's puppet, the CIA. BUT they quacked like ducks. I don't believe all this conspiracy stuff that the govt set them up. <sorry>


 @Trinnity

You know why I believe it?  Because the Feds have a history of doing it.  You know, deep down, that there is something up with that Saudi and that he is involved.  They deported him the exact same day.  Deported.  Now they refuse to answer questions with real answers, just "that's silly".

Why would they refuse to answer to the United States Congress why this kid was deported?

The FBI had them for years--by their own admittance.  I'm sorry, but read up on conspiracy charges.  They could have arrested them at any time if they were following them.  The fact that there was a bomb drill going on that day should red flag you that they knew something was up.  They also knew where they lived, and didn't pull them?

1. The Patriot Act lets the feds into their home literally and through their computers, cell phones, etc.  They had cells on them that day, calling people from them.  That's called GPS.  The FBI had the ability to find these kids and they had about 15 different types of charges dealing with conspiracy to arrest them prior to the event.
2. They wait a week.  The uncle was able to call them and talk to them on the cell phone in between the bombing and the manhunt?  GPS.  Also smart phone technology has a switch they can turn on and listen to you.  
3. Microwave technology
4. Rifles?  Massachusetts has laws against assault rifles.  They could have arrested them on that.  Patriot Act allows for Sneak and Peek.  If they were following them, they knew they had them.  They would have had to black market purchase them, anyway.  The phones were tapped, guarantee.  They could have picked them up on that.  
5. Also, someone you are watching leaves the country for Russia and comes back?
6. The younger one is at MIT.  All of the 911 hijackers used their "day pass" from Islam under the rules about dying for Allah to spend that year literally partying out.  You don't go to the most expensive technical school in the world with ten tons of homework and be a straight A student if you're planning jihad.
7. The FBI recruited people to plan bombing attacks--this is documented.
8. Biometric--if you were brought into the federal building, if you have passports...your image is in a biometric database and we have the state of the art CTVs

They could have arrested them on conspiracy charges at any time.  Any time.  They didn't.  Why not?

I think, they found people who were glad to leave Russia, fit the bill, offered one citizenship (on 9-11) and asked them to work in a sting operation.  I think it got out of hand, I think the Saudi kid is mixed up in this and since we deported them, we needed fall guys.  I think that's why we waited a week to pick up two kids calling people from their GPS cell phone.  The American people needed to have someone to be angry at and no suspects wouldn't help out the Obummer admin and if we let the culprit go after Benghazi and Fast and Furious it would have toppled them.

That is my opinion.  If it turns out they acted alone and the Saudi kid is not a part of it and this isn't an FBI FUBAR I can live with that, too.

----------


## Trinnity

You make a good case, Rinny; a very good case.

 I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying they look like they did it and I tend to believe it. 

I'm often wrong. What the hell....the govt is good at fooling us.

----------


## Guest

> You make a good case, Rinny; a very good case.
> 
>  I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying they look like they did it and I tend to believe it. 
> 
> I'm often wrong. What the hell....the govt is good at fooling us.


It's my job.  It's hard for me to forget everything I see and go: Wow, that's horrible.  Those dudes are soooo guilty.

The Feds have too much technology.  They could have nabbed them.  I also don't, oddly, think the Feds meant to blow anyone up.  I think this was a sting gone wrong.

----------


## Guest

--If you read through my posts you will see that I have a lot of respect for FBI field agents.  Those guys (until they get promoted) are completely hard core Captain America.

I think this was a sting that they were going to do a "pull out" at the last minute and make the government look like heroes and then it went wrong.

But that's my gut talking, also because I think those low level FBI guys do want to do the right thing.

----------


## Archer

The more I look at this the more my opinion sways. At first I thought our government could have prevented this but now after getting more info... 

I believe they allowed it to happen. There is a big difference.

If my son has a knife and is fighting with his brother all the time I know that there is a chance he could cut his brother. 

If my son has a knife, is fighting with his brother and says he is going to cut his brother I know that he is going to cut his brother. 

Iraq was preemptive/proactive but our government refused to do the same in this case? 




> The FBI and other law enforcement agencies were aware of at least one of the Boston terror suspects for several years, and even failed to deport him after a domestic violence conviction in 2009.
> 
> The FBI in 2011 interviewed one of the brothers suspected in the deadly Boston Marathon bombings, a disclosure that raises questions about whether the government missed potential warning signs about the men's behavior. 
> 
> The brothers had not been under surveillance as possible militants, U.S. government officials said. But the FBI said in a statement on Friday that in 2011 it interviewed Tamerlan at the request of a foreign government, which it did not identify.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-21-2013)

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## Guest

@Archer

Putin...it's a favor, I would imagine.

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-21-2013)

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## Guest

Hackers took control of CBS twitter feed to post this




http://www.dailypaul.com/282806/hila...oston-bombings

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## Guest

OH, now he's clinging to life!

http://gma.yahoo.com/boston-bomb-sus...opstories.html

Interesting that he crawled out of the boat himself.  The hackers have pics and there doesn't look to be blood on him, but now his neck looks shot up in the cop pic.

I don't know what to think.  If his throat is shot he can't talk, right?

----------


## Dan40

I'm amazed.  This forum is so much better than the shit hole, yet conspiracy theorists run wild here too.  I'm amazed that people can be so stupid as to not look at the conspiracy EVIDENCE and find NONE ever.  Conspiracy theorists crawl out from under rocks every time there is anything they cannot assimilate or understand.  They've been crawling out from under their rocks since long before Jimmy Hoffa.  Some conspiracies would have to involve THOUSANDS of people, some hundreds.  Some imagined conspiracies are more than half a century old.  Thousands that "COULD" have been involved have died.  Yet not one death bed confession, not one person has EVER come forward, not ONE imagined conspiracy has been proved by investigation.  Not by any investigative agency or group, govt or independent.
We have 2 muslim jihadists that did their thing.  One recently trained overseas, the other probably overwhelmed by his older brother.  Did they have some support structure here?  Probably and the younger will eventually reveal what he knows.  The older brother most likely kept him in the dark for the most part, but what he knows, he will give up.
And 35 years from now some complete dumb ass will still be claiming the marathon bombings were a govt plot.

----------


## Guest

@Dan40

which shithole?

----------


## Maximatic

> I'm amazed.  This forum is so much better than the shit hole, yet conspiracy theorists run wild here too.  I'm amazed that people can be so stupid as to not look at the conspiracy EVIDENCE and find NONE ever.  Conspiracy theorists crawl out from under rocks every time there is anything they cannot assimilate or understand.  They've been crawling out from under their rocks since long before Jimmy Hoffa.  Some conspiracies would have to involve THOUSANDS of people, some hundreds.  Some imagined conspiracies are more than half a century old.  Thousands that "COULD" have been involved have died.  Yet not one death bed confession, not one person has EVER come forward, not ONE imagined conspiracy has been proved by investigation.  Not by any investigative agency or group, govt or independent.
> We have 2 muslim jihadists that did their thing.  One recently trained overseas, the other probably overwhelmed by his older brother.  Did they have some support structure here?  Probably and the younger will eventually reveal what he knows.  The older brother most likely kept him in the dark for the most part, but what he knows, he will give up.
> And 35 years from now some complete dumb ass will still be claiming the marathon bombings were a govt plot.


To believe that there are conspiracies is really not that far fetched. In fact, I think it's silly to believe that no group ever conspires in secret. Sure, many of the _theories_ are completely implausible, but that's not a reason to altogether dismiss the idea that someone has conspired to bring about what happened and/or to lie about it.

In this case, the damaged backpack seems to have belonged to one of the "security" agents.

----------


## Guest

> I'm amazed.  This forum is so much better than the shit hole, yet conspiracy theorists run wild here too.  I'm amazed that people can be so stupid as to not look at the conspiracy EVIDENCE and find NONE ever.  Conspiracy theorists crawl out from under rocks every time there is anything they cannot assimilate or understand.  They've been crawling out from under their rocks since long before Jimmy Hoffa.  Some conspiracies would have to involve THOUSANDS of people, some hundreds.  Some imagined conspiracies are more than half a century old.  Thousands that "COULD" have been involved have died.  Yet not one death bed confession, not one person has EVER come forward, not ONE imagined conspiracy has been proved by investigation.  Not by any investigative agency or group, govt or independent.
> We have 2 muslim jihadists that did their thing.  One recently trained overseas, the other probably overwhelmed by his older brother.  Did they have some support structure here?  Probably and the younger will eventually reveal what he knows.  The older brother most likely kept him in the dark for the most part, but what he knows, he will give up.
> And 35 years from now some complete dumb ass will still be claiming the marathon bombings were a govt plot.


Riddle me this, Dan40, before John Wilkes Booth killed Lincoln...what was he involved in?  A what?

.
.
.
.
...a conspiracy, right.  Why didn't anyone inform Lincoln?

If a handful of terrorists can pull off 911 with meager resources and no one knowing about it through a conspiracy...why can't our government with all its resources?

----------


## The XL

@Network, why would the government fake it instead of going through it and killing citizens that they don't care about?  Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious why they'd even bother.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-21-2013)

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## The XL

> I'm amazed.  This forum is so much better than the shit hole, yet conspiracy theorists run wild here too.  I'm amazed that people can be so stupid as to not look at the conspiracy EVIDENCE and find NONE ever.  Conspiracy theorists crawl out from under rocks every time there is anything they cannot assimilate or understand.  They've been crawling out from under their rocks since long before Jimmy Hoffa.  Some conspiracies would have to involve THOUSANDS of people, some hundreds.  Some imagined conspiracies are more than half a century old.  Thousands that "COULD" have been involved have died.  Yet not one death bed confession, not one person has EVER come forward, not ONE imagined conspiracy has been proved by investigation.  Not by any investigative agency or group, govt or independent.
> We have 2 muslim jihadists that did their thing.  One recently trained overseas, the other probably overwhelmed by his older brother.  Did they have some support structure here?  Probably and the younger will eventually reveal what he knows.  The older brother most likely kept him in the dark for the most part, but what he knows, he will give up.
> And 35 years from now some complete dumb ass will still be claiming the marathon bombings were a govt plot.


You're not very bright.  Just thought I should let you know that.

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Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-21-2013)

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## The XL

> not ONE imagined conspiracy has been proved by investigation.  Not by any investigative agency or group, govt or independent.


I don't think you realize how stupid you look by saying this.  Most intelligent people, however, realize how dumb this statement is.

By all means, carry on though, enlightened one

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-21-2013)

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## Guest

@Dan40

Did you forget Fast and Furious?  How about "Yellowcake"?  How about "Iran Contra"?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Watergate?  How about the Gulf of Tonkin incident?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Operation Paperclip?  How about Northwoods?

----------


## Dan40

> To believe that there are conspiracies is really not that far fetched. In fact, I think it's silly to believe that no group ever conspires in secret. Sure, many of the _theories_ are completely implausible, but that's not a reason to altogether dismiss the idea that someone has conspired to bring about what happened and/or to lie about it.
> 
> In this case, the damaged backpack seems to have belonged to one of the "security" agents.


I was talking about conspiracies run by the govt for the govt.

Yes there have been and are numerous criminal conspiracies.  Radical Muslims, Chinese, North Koreans, and drug cartels ARE conspiring against us on an ongoing basis.  Somewhere some criminal group is conspiring to rob a bank or make some other "big score."

The idiocy is believing in govt conspiracies when none has ever been proven over DECADES.  We have b.o. elected and reelected.  We had Bush elected and reelected.  Proof that the public is too stupid for the govt to need to conspire against it.

----------


## Guest

> I was talking about conspiracies run by the govt for the govt.
> .


@Dan40

Did you forget Fast and Furious?  How about "Yellowcake"?  How about  "Iran Contra"?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Watergate?  How about the  Gulf of Tonkin incident?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Operation  Paperclip?  How about Northwoods?

----------

Sinestro/Green Arrow (04-21-2013),The XL (04-21-2013)

----------


## The XL

> @Dan40
> 
> Did you forget Fast and Furious?  How about "Yellowcake"?  How about  "Iran Contra"?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Watergate?  How about the  Gulf of Tonkin incident?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Operation  Paperclip?  How about Northwoods?



Facts don't work with these people.

----------


## Dan40

> @Dan40
> 
> Did you forget Fast and Furious?  How about "Yellowcake"?  How about "Iran Contra"?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Watergate?  How about the Gulf of Tonkin incident?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Operation Paperclip?  How about Northwoods?


I did not say the govt does not do stupid things, that is their specialty.
F&F, NOT a conspiracy, but a stupid law enforcement sting gone completely bad.  Yes the govt does secret things, some things need to be secret.  But CONSPIRACIES are plots against its people by the govt.  Not a list of govt fuck ups.  The proven conspiracy list is zero, the govt fuck up list is endless.  The latter proves the former cannot exist.  Dey jes doan bees smart nuff!

----------


## Guest

> I did not say the govt does not do stupid things, that is their specialty.
> F&F, NOT a conspiracy, but a stupid law enforcement sting gone completely bad.  Yes the govt does secret things, some things need to be secret.  But CONSPIRACIES are plots against its people by the govt.  Not a list of govt fuck ups.  The proven conspiracy list is zero, the govt fuck up list is endless.  The latter proves the former cannot exist.  Dey jes doan bees smart nuff!


 What do you consider a conspiracy then?  Why didn't our Congress know about this?

----------


## The XL

> I did not say the govt does not do stupid things, that is their specialty.
> F&F, NOT a conspiracy, but a stupid law enforcement sting gone completely bad.  Yes the govt does secret things, some things need to be secret.  But CONSPIRACIES are plots against its people by the govt.  Not a list of govt fuck ups.  The proven conspiracy list is zero, the govt fuck up list is endless.  The latter proves the former cannot exist.  Dey jes doan bees smart nuff!


I am speechless.  Save us all, God.

Do you even know what, Northwoods, for instance is?  How is that merely a government fuck up?

----------


## Dan40

> I don't think you realize how stupid you look by saying this.  Most intelligent people, however, realize how dumb this statement is.
> 
> By all means, carry on though, enlightened one


SFB, list the proven CONSPIRACIES by the US Govt against its people.

----------


## Guest

> I am speechless.  Save us all, God.
> 
> Do you even know what, Northwoods, for instance is?  How is that merely a government fuck up?


Because they didn't manage to get Kennedy to sign it, so they wasted about $50,000 on developing it for nothing.

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## The XL

> SFB, list the proven CONSPIRACIES by the US Govt against its people.


Northwoods and Gulf of Tonkin.

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## Dan40

> @Dan40
> 
> which shithole?


The other PF.  The one overrun by liberals.

As this one evidently soon will be.

----------


## Guest

> Northwoods and Gulf of Tonkin.


Watergate
Yellowcake
MK Ultra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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The XL (04-21-2013)

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## The XL

The US has declassified documents, some of which show that they're capable of faking a terrorist attack to cause a war, or lying about an attack to get us in one.  And you idiots still trust them?

You reap what you sow.

----------


## Archer

> I don't think you realize how stupid you look by saying this.  Most intelligent people, however, realize how dumb this statement is.
> 
> By all means, carry on though, enlightened one


Well is there another way to look at this? These may not be what is considered a conspiracy by definition.

I mean are they secretly out to get someone or are they doing what they want how they want to direct public opinion? They are not revealing anything and they would be doing a shitty cover up if it were a conspiracy. I am coming to the belief that they just do not care. Our government is becoming an entity unto itself.

It acts in its own interest - damn the citizens, allies or enemies.

----------


## Guest

> Well is there another way to look at this? These may not be what is considered a conspiracy by definition.
> 
> I mean are they secretly out to get someone or are they doing what they want how they want to direct public opinion? They are not revealing anything and they would be doing a shitty cover up if it were a conspiracy. I am coming to the belief that they just do not care. Our government is becoming an entity unto itself.
> 
> It acts in its own interest - damn the citizens, allies or enemies.


A conspiracy is when two or more parties plan on breaking the law in the future.  All of above that has been listed is a plan to violate the Constitution, ergo...conspiracy.

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The XL (04-21-2013)

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## The XL

> A conspiracy is when two or more parties plan on breaking the law in the future.  All of above that has been listed is a plan to violate the Constitution, ergo...conspiracy.


This.

----------


## Dan40

> I am speechless.  Save us all, God.
> 
> Do you even know what, Northwoods, for instance is?  How is that merely a government fuck up?



Northwoods was one of perhaps thousands of contingencies that we WAR GAME all the time.  I imagine we have full plans to invade and/or nuke Canada.  Have plans to nuke or invade Florida, Russia, England, France, South Africa, and any other place in the world.  The military probably has plans to invade the SUN.

I was in the military then.  Northwoods never happened.  Did it waste money?  YES, every war game does, unless it comes in handy. See Iraq 1&2.
Even in business, when you get your best people together for a brainstorming session, ANYTHING GOES.  No idea is restricted or discarded.  One of our many brainstorming sessions resulted in one person making a suggestion that caused us all to laugh.  Then another person said, "I've heard about some things computers can do that would be sort of like that."  computers were very new then  We looked into it.  That big laugh turned us into a multinational company doing over $100 million per year.  But a thousand other ideas were tossed in the round  file.

Quit believing what others tell you and think for yourself.

Why do I not believe in govt conspiracies?  Because in more than 70 years not one has been exposed.  Dumb ideas, sure, that's govt, the land of stupid ideas.

----------


## Dan40

> Northwoods and Gulf of Tonkin.


WRONG as always.  Northwoods never happened.  It was a CONTINGENCY PLAN, not a conspiracy by the US govt against its citizens.  But the shallow minded and paranoid will refuse to realize that.

The Gulf of Tonkin DID happen.  There was a sea balltle between the US Maddox and NVN torpedo boats.  NVN sailors were killed and wounded and their boats were damaged.  The Maddox evaded a torpedo and was lightly hit by gunfire. 2 nights later The Maddox again fired on what turned out to be radar ghosts.  This is the bullshit that idiotic conspiracy dupes claim was the staged non-attack.

I asked, now DEMAND, that you list the proven conspiracies by the US Govt against its people.  Not list the stupid assed claims by other conspiracy theorist idiots.

----------


## Archer

> A conspiracy is when two or more parties plan on breaking the law in the future.  All of above that has been listed is a plan to violate the Constitution, ergo...conspiracy.





> This.


I know what the definition is but considering we are talking about the government who can seemingly ignore laws or change meanings with its courts to suit them I think it goes much further than that.

Where is the secrecy? They are not open about it but not being open is not the same as hiding. This shit is in our faces and it is a dare for us to challenge. This is not a conspiracy it is a hostile take over and an attempt to abolish the constitution. This is in our faces! No secrecy.

----------


## Roadmaster

We are seeing a weakening of our country.

----------


## Maximatic

> I was talking about conspiracies run by the govt for the govt.
> 
> Yes there have been and are numerous criminal conspiracies.  Radical Muslims, Chinese, North Koreans, and drug cartels ARE conspiring against us on an ongoing basis.  Somewhere some criminal group is conspiring to rob a bank or make some other "big score."
> 
> The idiocy is believing in govt conspiracies when none has ever been proven over DECADES.  We have b.o. elected and reelected.  We had Bush elected and reelected.  Proof that the public is too stupid for the govt to need to conspire against it.


How many of what kind of government agents or officials need to be involved in a plan that they don't tell anyone about in order for such a thing to be classifiable as a conspiracy?

----------


## Maximatic

> I imagine we have full plans to invade and/or nuke Canada.  Have plans to nuke or invade Florida, Russia, England, France, South Africa, and any other place in the world.  The military probably has plans to invade the SUN.


Anybody need a good signature?

----------


## Sinestro/Green Arrow

> The other PF.  The one overrun by liberals.
> 
> As this one evidently soon will be.


What? There's only like two of us here. Maybe three if Trinnity's guy comes.

----------


## DDave

> How many of what kind of government agents or officials need to be involved in a plan that they don't tell anyone about in order for such a thing to be classifiable as a conspiracy?


Well . . . 




> A conspiracy is when two or more parties plan on breaking the law in the future.  All of above that has been listed is a plan to violate the Constitution, ergo...conspiracy.


Apparently two.  :Thumbsup20: 




> I asked, now DEMAND, that you list the proven conspiracies by the US Govt against its people.  Not list the stupid assed claims by other conspiracy theorist idiots.


 @Dan40 makes a good point.  Yes we all know what the definition of a conspiracy is but I think when people think of conspiracies in the context of "conspiracy theroist" today, they are talking about plots planned and carried out by the government which killed Americans in order to further some political agenda.




> The US has declassified documents, *some* of which  show that *they're capable* of faking a terrorist attack to cause a war,  or lying about an attack to get us in one.


But none that show they actually did.  MK Ultra is hard to get around though.




> Am I am the only who doesn't care if it was a total  hoax or an inside job?  The end result is the same, regardless.


The end result is the same but if you want to increase awareness and want people to ask questions, the total hoax theory does not help to that end.  

If someone is presenting  a good case that it was an inside job, others may think "Well, they may have a point.  Perhaps I should look into this more closely."

But if someone is saying "Ah the whole thing was a hoax.  Nothing but stage props and bad actors.  Nobody died and you people are stupid if you think they did." people are likely to just tune everything out and not question the official report.

To paraphrase TRAT, the hoax pushers make intelligent people asking legitimate questions look silly  So by definition, the aforementioned people are "conspiracy theorists" but today, in many people's mind, the term "conspiracy theorist" conjures up the image of the basement dwelling halfwit Internet detective.

I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that that's the way it is.

----------

usfan (04-21-2013)

----------


## Dan40

> @Dan40
> 
> Did you forget Fast and Furious?  How about "Yellowcake"?  How about  "Iran Contra"?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Watergate?  How about the  Gulf of Tonkin incident?  How about MK Ultra?  How about Operation  Paperclip?  How about Northwoods?


None of that idiotic nonsense was the govt conspiring against the American people.  All your silly whines were either not ever enacted or were secret operations with a clear purpose OTHER than the govt hurting the American public.  We do virtually MILLIONS of contingency plans.  But so far the govt has not conspired against its citizens.

You could make a case that welfare, food stamps, govt housing, and all other govt freebies actually DO hurt the recipients of those things by destroying their incentive, integrity, and self worth.  But was that the design or unintended consequences of govt stupidity on the usual, grand scale?

You earlier asked if 2 govt employees conspired to break the law in the future was a conspiracy.  Yes it is a conspiracy, but it is not a govt conspiracy.  Just as two butchers conspiring to fix prices is not a conspiracy of the meat industry.

----------


## The XL

> Well . . . 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently two. 
> 
> 
>  @Dan40 makes a good point.  Yes we all know what the definition of a conspiracy is but I think when people think of conspiracies in the context of "conspiracy theroist" today, they are talking about plots planned and carried out by the government which killed Americans in order to further some political agenda.
> 
> ...


The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin and got us in a war.  They tried Northwoods but it was rejected by Kennedy.

They have tried, and succeeded before.  I don't see why now would be any different.

----------


## Guest

> The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin and got us in a war.  They tried Northwoods but it was rejected by Kennedy.
> 
> They have tried, and succeeded before.  I don't see why now would be any different.


I would ask @DDave to consider the fact that these plans to create false flag terror acts on US citizens that Kennedy rejected were a) paid for while they were working on our dime, b) escalated all the way up the chain to the President, and c) what if Kennedy had said "okay".

My point is that we did it before and no one knew that we even attempted it for 40 years.  NOW, do you think that we'd actually get a document in a FOIA request (and one that wasn't exposed on a Congressional record like MK Ultra) that shows our government actually committing terror acts against us?

A resounding "no".

So...what don't we know?  What's gone through with less scrupulous presidents?

----------


## Kabuki Joe

> I'm amazed. This forum is so much better than the shit hole, yet conspiracy theorists run wild here too. I'm amazed that people can be so stupid as to not look at the conspiracy EVIDENCE and find NONE ever. Conspiracy theorists crawl out from under rocks every time there is anything they cannot assimilate or understand. They've been crawling out from under their rocks since long before Jimmy Hoffa. Some conspiracies would have to involve THOUSANDS of people, some hundreds. Some imagined conspiracies are more than half a century old. Thousands that "COULD" have been involved have died. Yet not one death bed confession, not one person has EVER come forward, not ONE imagined conspiracy has been proved by investigation. Not by any investigative agency or group, govt or independent.
> We have 2 muslim jihadists that did their thing. One recently trained overseas, the other probably overwhelmed by his older brother. Did they have some support structure here? Probably and the younger will eventually reveal what he knows. The older brother most likely kept him in the dark for the most part, but what he knows, he will give up.
> And 35 years from now some complete dumb ass will still be claiming the marathon bombings were a govt plot.


...I'm still laughing at network, he's one slick snake oil salesman!...

----------


## Dan40

> The government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin and got us in a war.  They tried Northwoods but it was rejected by Kennedy.
> 
> They have tried, and succeeded before.  I don't see why now would be any different.


First you are WRONG about Tonkin and second Northwood never happened.

You prattle on mindlessly and produce NOTHING.  When and where was any conspiracy conducted by the US govt against the American people.

You haven't named one because you cannot name one.  You are a mindless conspiracy dupe. You evidently believe in thousands of conspiracies because there are thousands of things you do not and probably never will understand.

----------


## Kabuki Joe

> First you are WRONG about Tonkin and second Northwood never happened.
> 
> You prattle on mindlessly and produce NOTHING.  When and where was any conspiracy conducted by the US govt against the American people.
> 
> You haven't named one because you cannot name one.  You are a mindless conspiracy dupe. You evidently believe in thousands of conspiracies because there are thousands of things you do not and probably never will understand.


...I was listening to Lars Larson talk about this and he said the amount of people that would need to go along with this would be the hundreds...witnesses, government officials, government employees...he said you just can't get that many people involved with a conspiracy and I agree...

----------


## Guest

> First you are WRONG about Tonkin and second Northwood never happened.


 @Dan40,

Northwoods ONLY never happened because Kennedy was all: WTF????  

Had Kennedy been a evil tool we might have a non-communist 51st State of Cuba back then.

The conspiracy part --which you are not getting--was a chain of men conspiring to create terror acts on the American people to produce a desire result.

They actually did this.  You cannot deny it, it is FOIA-able and was part of a Congressional hearing.  Ergo, people *did* conspire against us.  They did so wearing US government uniforms, paid for by US tax dollars, on US tax dollar paid property, on our dime and none of them were relieved from duty.

Their lack of success doesn't negate the acts from taking place.  

So back up off @The XL

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The XL (04-25-2013)

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## The XL

Dan doesn't even know the difference between private and public property.  Explaining obvious things to him is useless.

----------


## The XL

How am I wrong about the Gulf of Tonkin, anyway?  It was staged event to get us in the war.

----------


## Dan40

> @Dan40,
> 
> Northwoods ONLY never happened because Kennedy was all: WTF????  
> 
> Had Kennedy been a evil tool we might have a non-communist 51st State of Cuba back then.
> 
> The conspiracy part --which you are not getting--was a chain of men conspiring to create terror acts on the American people to produce a desire result.
> 
> They actually did this.  You cannot deny it, it is FOIA-able and was part of a Congressional hearing.  Ergo, people *did* conspire against us.  They did so wearing US government uniforms, paid for by US tax dollars, on US tax dollar paid property, on our dime and none of them were relieved from duty.
> ...


There are none so stupid as those who refuse to learn.  Northwoods was a war gaming exercise by the military.  We do 10's of thousands of such HYPOTHETICAL war games.  There was NO,repeat, NO attempt to implement Northwoods.  It was not stopped by JFK, it was reejected by JFK as a possible solution to the Cuban mess.
If you were aware of one tenth of the war game contingency plans we do REGULARLY, you would be pooping your pants for the rest of your life.  Once again, you conspiracy ignoramuses CANNOT cite even one actual conspiracy that has ever actually happened.  JFK, RFK, MLK, Lincoln and perhaps a thousand others are stupid wails you make.  But in ALL US history, none have been proved.

If you believe our politicians have EVER been that clever then you cannot distinguish night from day.

----------


## Dan40

> Dan doesn't even know the difference between private and public property.  Explaining obvious things to him is useless.


Another childish attempt at cleverness.  Give it up, its well beyond you meager ability.

----------


## The XL

> Another childish attempt at cleverness.  Give it up, its well beyond you meager ability.


Attempt at cleverness?  No, it's the truth.  You showed in the other thread that you do not know the difference.

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## Dan40

> How am I wrong about the Gulf of Tonkin, anyway?  It was staged event to get us in the war.


On August 2 1964, the USS Maddox WAS fired upon by NVN torpedo boats.  The Maddox DID evade a torpedo and was hit by gunfire.  The Maddox returned fire and damaged or sunk one of the NVN craft.

This is an actual ACT OF WAR that did take place.

On August 4 The Maddox again fired on what turned out to be radar ghosts.

The incompetent liberal LBJ understood the Maddox was attacked twice, but that is UNIMPORTANT,  One attack was more than enough.

It is the second erroneous gunfire that you conspiracy idiots claim the entire incident was made up.  The first ACT OF WAR did transpire.  The second incident was an error due to the fog of war.  Same ship had been hit 2 days before.  AFTER you experience someone shooting at YOU then you can blame those sailors for screwing the pooch.

And some history that you don't find in the history books.  I personally, was in combat in Vietnam in 61 and 62.  Long before the Tonkin incident.
Again, I personally zipped up body bags containing US military, and I spent 60 days in the hospital in the Philippines.

Our first "advisory" troops were in Vietnam under EISENHOWER.

Final score of the Tonkin Gulf battle:

USN

1 destroyer slightly damaged,
1 aircraft slightly damaged.


NVN

1 torpedo boat severely damaged,
2 torpedo boats moderately damaged,
4 killed,
6 wounded

That you are so damaged as to choose to believe conspiracy bullshit is your handicap.  The FACTS are that the battle DID take place.

----------


## Guest

Uh, @Dan40, 

I think he's referring to the 2nd Gulf of Tonkin incident http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...452221-7194515

http://fair.org/media-beat-column/30...d-vietnam-war/



> The official story was that North Vietnamese torpedo boats launched  an "unprovoked attack" against a U.S. destroyer on "routine patrol" in  the Tonkin Gulf on Aug. 2 — and that North Vietnamese PT boats followed  up with a "deliberate attack" on a pair of U.S. ships two days later.
>   The truth was very different.
> 
> 
>   Rather than being on a routine patrol Aug. 2, the U.S. destroyer  Maddox was actually engaged in aggressive intelligence-gathering  maneuvers — in sync with coordinated attacks on North Vietnam by the  South Vietnamese navy and the Laotian air force.
> 
> 
>   "The day before, two attacks on North Vietnam...had taken place,"  writes scholar Daniel C. Hallin. Those assaults were "part of a campaign  of increasing military pressure on the North that the United States had  been pursuing since early 1964."
> 
> ...

----------

The XL (04-25-2013)

----------


## The XL

> Uh, @Dan40, 
> 
> I think he's referring to the 2nd Gulf of Tonkin incident http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...452221-7194515
> 
> http://fair.org/media-beat-column/30...d-vietnam-war/


Yes, of course I was.

Fuckin A Dan, I really think you're trolling me, because even you have to be smarter than this.

----------


## Guest

> There are none so stupid as those who refuse to learn.  Northwoods was a war gaming exercise by the military.  We do 10's of thousands of such HYPOTHETICAL war games.  There was NO,repeat, NO attempt to implement Northwoods.  It was not stopped by JFK, it was reejected by JFK as a possible solution to the Cuban mess.


Please provide your source to this.  We provided our link to the Congressional report that refutes it on the conspiracy thread.

----------


## Dan40

> Yes, of course I was.
> 
> Fuckin A Dan, I really think you're trolling me, because even you have to be smarter than this.



So WTF, the first incidence was an ACT OF WAR.  Do we need 2 incidents? 200, 2000?  The second was a screwup and you conspiracy numbskulls hang on to it like barnacles.

A USN ship WAS fired on during an ONGOING armed conflict.  A conflict that started years before 8/2/64

----------


## Dan40

> Please provide your source to this.  We provided our link to the Congressional report that refutes it on the conspiracy thread.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow...#Rainbow_plans

Here is a long list of declassified war plans.  The modern planning is SECRET, and would stir the same kind of controversy among the stupid that Northwoods does.

You know people in JAG.  Ask THEM if the military war games EVERYTHING!  Do you think the 4th largest army in the world and highly combat experienced was DEFEATED in 100 hours the first time and in 3 days the second time, on plans made up as they went along?

The battleplan was IN THE BOOKS years before Kuwait was invaded.

----------


## Guest

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow...#Rainbow_plans
> 
> Here is a long list of declassified war plans.  The modern planning is SECRET, and would stir the same kind of controversy among the stupid that Northwoods does.
> 
> You know people in JAG.  Ask THEM if the military war games EVERYTHING!  Do you think the 4th largest army in the world and highly combat experienced was DEFEATED in 100 hours the first time and in 3 days the second time, on plans made up as they went along?
> 
> The battleplan was IN THE BOOKS years before Kuwait was invaded.


Battle plans involving killing your own people are not on that list.  YOUR OWN PEOPLE.  Jesus...

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The XL (04-25-2013)

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## Dan40

> Battle plans involving killing your own people are not on that list.  YOUR OWN PEOPLE.  Jesus...


You KNOW what is on the SECRET plans?  Bullshit.  EVERYTHING is gamed.  Gaming does not mean doing it, it means what IF?  Way can you not understand that.  Should we just be in a coma until we have to react?  We do TOO much of that with extensive gaming.

You DO realize that in an actual war battleplan, the CO knows his orders WILL cause the death and or wounding of a percentage of his troops.  Is he conspiring against his troops?

REALITY, try to find it.  Its everywhere you look, IF you look.  But it is NOT always pleasant.

----------


## usfan

I am under the impression, from hearing military leaders, especially former ones, that there are extensive 'what if' scenarios practiced & considered, for just about any imaginable situation, including  nuclear responses domestically.  If they can dabble with the idea of exploding a nuclear bomb on american soil, there is nothing else that is beyond imagination for them to consider.  Part of the 'reason' for the bullet buy up is a 'doomsday' prepper' mentality by the govt, in case they have hordes of angry taxpayers trying to revolt.

We hope that reason & common sense will prevail, but that is in short supply in our govt.

----------


## Guest

> You KNOW what is on the SECRET plans?  Bullshit.  EVERYTHING is gamed.  Gaming does not mean doing it, it means what IF?  Way can you not understand that.  Should we just be in a coma until we have to react?  We do TOO much of that with extensive gaming.
> 
> You DO realize that in an actual war battleplan, the CO knows his orders WILL cause the death and or wounding of a percentage of his troops.  Is he conspiring against his troops?
> 
> REALITY, try to find it.  Its everywhere you look, IF you look.  But it is NOT always pleasant.


Dan, I really don't know how else to ask this, but why would you plan battles against your own people...like in Dan40 world...what scenario would make you think to plan battles against your own people and blame it on Cuba?

And, btw, it was not "gamed"...if you go to the links, it actually sat on Kennedy's desk.  You can see the little place for signature in the documents.

Actually, nevermind, I'm done.  

You're right.  Battle plans, using our tax dollars, that everyone in this fucking country would be HORRIFIED to know was going on behind their backs with their money in an US versus THEM approach of government and people, are fine with you.

Gotcha.

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## Guest

> I am under the impression, from hearing military leaders, especially former ones, that there are extensive 'what if' scenarios practiced & considered, for just about any imaginable situation, including  nuclear responses domestically.  If they can dabble with the idea of exploding a nuclear bomb on american soil, there is nothing else that is beyond imagination for them to consider.  Part of the 'reason' for the bullet buy up is a 'doomsday' prepper' mentality by the govt, in case they have hordes of angry taxpayers trying to revolt.
> 
> We hope that reason & common sense will prevail, but that is in short supply in our govt.


This is not one of those.  We are talking about the military spending our tax dollars to create a plan of committing fake acts of terror on US citizens and blaming it on Cuba so we could invade.

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## The XL

> You KNOW what is on the SECRET plans?  Bullshit.  EVERYTHING is gamed.  Gaming does not mean doing it, it means what IF?  Way can you not understand that.  Should we just be in a coma until we have to react?  We do TOO much of that with extensive gaming.
> 
> You DO realize that in an actual war battleplan, the CO knows his orders WILL cause the death and or wounding of a percentage of his troops.  Is he conspiring against his troops?
> 
> REALITY, try to find it.  Its everywhere you look, IF you look.  But it is NOT always pleasant.


You can try and spin it any way you want, but planning false flag terror to get into a war with a country is conspiring against your own people.

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## Dan40

> How many of what kind of government agents or officials need to be involved in a plan that they don't tell anyone about in order for such a thing to be classifiable as a conspiracy?



Asked and answered, pay attention.

2 govt agents, whatever that is, conspire to rob a bank.  That is not a govt conspiracy.  that is a criminal conspiracy by 2 people that happen to be govt "Agents."

A govt conspiracy is any number of govt officials conspiring to harm its people.  None has EVER been proved.  None has ever been close to being proved.  Conspiracy idiots have grasped every straw of rumor possible. But no conspiracy has been proven.

If you want a real govt conspiracy aimed at hurting its people, investigate  the scum ball obama and the sequester.  He claims that Air towers and controllers must be furloughed or shut down due the the requirements of sequester.  A blatant lie.  Ried sats we won't find a cure for Cancer due to the Republican sequester. [sequester was obama's idea].  But the b.o. conspiracy is simply this, we do not have a budget in place, haven't at any time b.o. has been president.  With no budget in place calling for X monies for Y purpose at Z time.  Both the lying slime faux president, and department officials can move funds about to achieve the 2% reduction called for by sequester, without the public even noticing anything was cut at all.

There is your Anti-American conspiracy and its happening right under your noses.

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DDave (04-26-2013)

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