# Politics and News > UK, Canada, Oz, NZ >  Another case of Australia's affirmative sexual consent law

## kazenatsu

For those of you who may not be aware, due to the feminist element having taken over, Australia has what are called "affirmative consent" laws concerning sex and sexual assault. Meaning the man can still be guilty of sexual assault even if the woman did not clearly say no. 
The typical such case involves a reluctant woman who regretted it afterwards. The men are not entirely without blame but it is the farthest thing away from what most people typically imagine as a rape.

It looks like it has happened again, this time to rugby star Jarred Hayne.

He met a woman through the internet and met her for the first time at her house. While he was in the middle of playing her a song off his laptop, the taxi outside which had dropped him off beeped its horn, and the man had to go out to convince the taxi to keep waiting. Before that the woman had not realized there was a taxi waiting outside. That seemed to ruin the mood.

He went back inside and watched grand final football coverage on the TV in the lounge room for several minutes with the woman's mother. He then went into the woman's bedroom where he began to touch and kiss her.

The woman was not interested in sexual contact after finding out about the taxi. 

The woman said "What do you think you're doing? There's no way I'm going to touch you."
The man removed her jeans, while the woman claims she said "no". 
But apparently the man didn't get the message that she was saying absolutely no.

It's like the difference between a "little no" and a "big no". 

Many people believe this sounds more like a case where the woman was just being reluctant.

The man was not completely without fault here, but it wasn't exactly the classic case of date rape.

In many other countries this might be somewhere in the spectrum between a just a reluctant woman and being date rape. But not in Australia.

The man does not believe he committed rape, he seems genuine about this belief.

One additional factor here, the man was a muscular built rugby player and did weigh twice as much as the woman.

During intercourse the woman began to bleed, and when that happened the man stopped and did not finish. 

The woman later explained "My vagina was stinging in a throb-like sensation and I couldn't understand or fully comprehend that he had just done that to me. I sat on my bed hugging my knees and staring into nothingness."

There are many people very skeptical about the claims that what happened constituted a rape, due to the situation and facts of the case, although nobody besides those two people can know for sure exactly how much the woman did or didn't protest in that bedroom.


The man was sentenced to 5 years and 9 months, but will be eligible for release on parole in a little less than 4 years.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/...06-p57phs.html


Now, it should be pointed out that the woman did technically say "no" here, but due to the background context of the situation, it may not have been interpreted, and there is good reason to believe it was not, as a serious no.

There are some intricacies with consent. A no isn't exactly always a no. A woman can subtly communicate she's going to have sex with man, and then seem to suddenly change her mind, but not be very decided about it. 
In countries with affirmative consent laws, this is very dangerous territory for the man.

This might have been more like "I don't really feel like it right now, maybe some time later" and then the woman doesn't put up much psychological resistance to the man's advances and is implicitly communicating "Oh, okay, I'll let you have your way" somewhat reluctantly.

Of course, if a woman doesn't feel like she specifically said yes, wasn't the most enthusiastic about it to begin with, and there was something unanticipated that went bad during the experience that caused her to feel unpleasant (especially if it was bleeding and soreness, which is not extremely uncommon), then the woman is more likely to feel violated in a serious way. That's when the sexual assault claims begin.

----------

dinosaur (05-12-2021),donttread (05-11-2021)

----------


## Northern Rivers

I am...and intend to remain...a gentleman.

No-one should force themselves upon another without being certain they are just as enamoured as are you. To my mind, this has nothing to do with any law other than the Law Of Civility.

----------

dinosaur (05-12-2021),Foghorn (05-06-2021),TheOneOnly2 (05-12-2021)

----------


## kazenatsu

In the future, in places that have these kind of laws, men who want to go out there to have sexual encounters are going to have to get the woman to sign a consent form in the presence of witnesses before the intercourse commences.

----------

dinosaur (05-12-2021),Northern Rivers (05-12-2021)

----------


## Old Tex

Little no or big NO, no is still no & that's the way I see it. And yes I've been there (about 100 years ago) & any sort of no shut me down & I didn't push for going ahead. 

I'll also say expecting sex & having a taxi wait is low class in my book. I find that offensive.

----------

dinosaur (05-12-2021),Hillofbeans (05-12-2021),Northern Rivers (05-12-2021),TheOneOnly2 (05-12-2021)

----------


## kazenatsu

> I'll also say expecting sex & having a taxi wait is low class in my book. I find that offensive.


That's probably why she suddenly changed her mind about having sex, after she found out about the taxi.

----------

dinosaur (05-12-2021),Northern Rivers (05-12-2021)

----------


## kazenatsu

The trouble is, the way the woman is describing it, I don't think we (as outside impartial observers listening to her testimony, with the assumption she is not blatantly lying) can really decide what actually went on exactly in that bedroom, or what it might have looked like from the man's perspective.

It's one thing if a woman was blatantly lying and falsely accusing a man of something he totally did not do, but in this case that's not the issue here.
The woman could be describing things from her perspective (not so much trying to lie) and the situation she describes may not be the objective truth.

It reminds me of one of the scenes in the Star Trek Next Generation episode "A Matter of Perspective", where a woman describes what events transpired (her side of the story), and Riker is absolutely sure she is lying, but Troy (who has the ability to sense what others are feeling) tells him that she is not. Riker asked how can that be, "We both can't be telling truth!", and Troy responds "You are both telling the truth _as you remember it."


video here, with annoying ads, scene begins at 25:08 and ends at 28:26

_https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7u67jj

season 3, episode 14, link here

Some more background about the plot in this episode, Riker is suspected of killing Dr. Apgar. They are trying to determine what happened. Each witness to the preceding events makes a hologram recreation of what they remember happening. In Riker's version, Dr. Apgar's wife makes strong romantic advances towards him. In the wife's version, it is Riker who was strongly making sexual advances towards her. That version makes Riker look guilty, like he had a reason to kill Dr. Apgar to try to cover up his misconduct, because Dr. Apgar got jealous when he suddenly walked in on the two and saw what appeared to him to be inappropriate physical contact, and then threatened to report him.
The two versions of the story share many of the underlying facts and conversations, but they get interpreted in very different ways.

It's an example of how two different people can see (and remember) the same events very differently, through different perspectives, and the implications that phenomena can sometimes have in criminal cases.

----------


## kazenatsu

article about affirmative sexual consent in Australia:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh...05-p52e1p.html

It looks like this wasn't even the law in the Australian state of Victoria until the
2016 Crimes Amendment Sexual Offences Act, which clarified and drastically altered the definition of consent.
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/leg...016349/s1.html

----------


## kazenatsu

*Jarryd Hayne guilty of ‘bad sex’, not rape, lawyer tells court*
Woman only complained because she was 'upset about her injuries', defence barrister says

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/20...er-tells-court


Former NRL star Harry's Hayne has told a jury he knew a woman didn’t want to have sex with him in her bedroom but he wanted to “please her”.​
(by "sex", he is referring to normal sexual intercourse)Giving evidence in his defence during his rape trial in Newcastle district court on Friday, Hayne said he had been kissing the woman before she removed her pants and he performed oral sex on her.

“She was breathing heavily, she was fine,” Hayne said. “I knew she didn’t want to have sex. I thought I would just please her.”

He said he was suddenly in shock and jumped up when he “first felt the sense of a different liquid hit my lip”.

Hayne didn’t have a clue what it was and looked at his hands before realising it was blood.​
https://theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/nov/27/jarryd-hayne-tells-court-he-knew-alleged-victim-didnt-want-sex-but-he-wanted-to-please-her

----------


## donttread

> For those of you who may not be aware, due to the feminist element having taken over, Australia has what are called "affirmative consent" laws concerning sex and sexual assault. Meaning the man can still be guilty of sexual assault even if the woman did not clearly say no. 
> The typical such case involves a reluctant woman who regretted it afterwards. The men are not entirely without blame but it is the farthest thing away from what most people typically imagine as a rape.
> 
> It looks like it has happened again, this time to rugby star Jarred Hayne.
> 
> He met a woman through the internet and met her for the first time at her house. While he was in the middle of playing her a song off his laptop, the taxi outside which had dropped him off beeped its horn, and the man had to go out to convince the taxi to keep waiting. Before that the woman had not realized there was a taxi waiting outside. That seemed to ruin the mood.
> 
> He went back inside and watched grand final football coverage on the TV in the lounge room for several minutes with the woman's mother. He then went into the woman's bedroom where he began to touch and kiss her.
> 
> ...


So how did they get from him taking his jeans off to her claimimng rape? That seems like a pretty big gap right there. Didn't she say no again somewhere in that process? As for him WTF a taxi on the meter you freakin man whore.? 

We used the old lame and effective as hell base system. There were even two different types of no's. No not yet ( your hand goes to her breast and is gently pushed away and hand immediately and descively pushed away. NO that ain't happenin. 
It all worked as long as we understood that she always had the final say. But if I had continued with my hand I would of expected a slap and numerous comments like "STOP" "You f'ing asshole" "Get your filthy hands off me" The stuff  you can't exactly ignore accidently.

Even if I had wanted to rape a date ( which I didn't) I'm not sure how I would have gone about that. Forcible rapist use weapons zip ties , threats of life and limb and their fist, Not the kind of stuff that "just happens" With date rape we are talking about what? Forcibly removing her clothes not just defending the family jewels but maintaining an erection, getting her into position well enough for a dry entry and whatever it took to stop her from disengaging?
Don't get me wrong I know it happens I just don't get how? In this case the size strength difference was huge but two scrawny teens in the back seat of a car?

----------


## Moonie

.
I don't suggest as a 'conservative' that you throw the 'affirmative action/consent' threat dears.

My wife has been handicapped for 16+ years and I hold you in contempt as such!
.

----------


## TheOneOnly2

He serenaded her with the song Wonderwall. But an Ed Sheeran cover. Ha. WTF? 

I said maybe! You gonna be the one that saves me!

----------


## TheOneOnly2

And he the 'intercourse' was his finger. He also performed oral. Stopped when he realised she was bleeding. May have been fingernail. 

I have some sympathy for Hayne because I dont understand how he gets jeans off then .. puts his fingers in her and performs oral withiut some level of consent. The womans mother was in the house so she could have screamed for help. She claims to have said no but there is no proof of this. She did not. Also she did send him texts after this happened before deciding to report it as rape. Hayne said in text to a friend that police got from his phone that she was doing this because he had "brushed" her and I agree. If Hayne had texted next day and arranged to meet again I do not think woman would have reported incident as rape. I think she would have married Hayne after this if Hayne was interested. Hayne was not. Seems to me she felt stupid and used after she realized Hayne didnt want anything serious but thats what you get when you are a gold digging star $&$&er.

Having said that Hayne did have to settle civil law suit with a US woman that accused him of rape while he was in US playing in NFL. Woman was a virgin and apparently Hayne put it in without her consent and she had a sore vagina for months afterward. I wonder what they settled for. What her virginity was worth. Anyway - Hayne should have probably be more careful considering his profile. 

I agree that no means no but in another case of NRL player accused of rape recently - NRL player De Belins case ended in a not guilty on one charge and hung jury on others - doesnt look like he will be going to jail. De Belin apparently choked woman during threesome and - did she consent to that? Who knows but I highly doubt it was discussed beforehand if it did happen. I feel some sympathy for female because she was attacked in court for how she acted after alleged rape. To me this is not fair - how is someone supposed to act after being raped? Who knows if she was raped or not - but I do not like the woman being attacked for how she acted afterwards. Anyway De Belin case example of how it is still difficult to prove rape regardless of consent laws.

----------


## TheOneOnly2

Back to Hayne - he maintains his innocence and is going to appeal. Worst thing about this is leftist media reaction. Since RL is working class sport the left hate it and the players/fans so this story is a dream come true for them. The glee that they have from the thought if Hayne sitting in a jail cell is sickening and another thing is that Haynes former teammates are forbidden from supporting him in any way - one player has already been fired for a tweet showing support and another had to make a public apology for a supportive tweet. Fair enough court found Hayne guilty but he says he is innocent and will appeal so why cant friends and family show him support? Anyone that dares to will be demonized by our media and thats not right. They will be camped outside whatever prison he ends up in waiting for former teammates to visit - then write up headlines about how that NRL player supports a rapist and must be blacklisted/fired. Such leftist glee over this all.

----------

Big Wheeler (05-13-2021)

----------


## TheOneOnly2

What really sinks Hayne is that he came from s former teammates two day bucks party and God knows he was drunk as $&$&. 'Rugby League drunk' as they say. He claims to have drank water in between drinks but I highly doubt that. He was also drinking alcohol in the taxi. So his recollection isnt worth much.

----------


## TheOneOnly2

One thing that I do find funny about this is that Hayne is a Hillsong evangelical. Like most NRL players of islander heritage Hayne claims to be a Christian. He doesnt act like one though.

I have never been a fan of his. Left NRL to be a loser in NFL for a year or so. Claimed it was his "dream" to play in NFL. Wouldnt have even known the rules you know. I would be surprised if he even played Madden. The guy is dumb. As $&$&. I take no joy in him being in jail. But its kind of funny.

Edit - Guy had a kid. With the chick that was showing up to court with him. Had the kid when he allegedly raped chick in US and this alleged rape. But Hayne only married chick after arrest... Looked better in court if he had a wife supporting him I guess.. Guilty or not Hayne is a piece of $&$&.

Edit - Dont think his 'wife' deserves much sympathy. But still.

----------


## kazenatsu

> We used the old lame and effective as hell base system. There were even two different types of no's. No not yet ( your hand goes to her breast and is gently pushed away and hand immediately and descively pushed away. NO that ain't happenin. 
> It all worked as long as we understood that she always had the final say. But if I had continued with my hand I would of expected a slap and numerous comments like "STOP" "You f'ing asshole" "Get your filthy hands off me" The stuff  you can't exactly ignore accidently.


And that doesn't seem to have happened, in this story.

----------


## kazenatsu

> One thing that I do find funny about this is that Hayne is a Hillsong evangelical. Like most NRL players of islander heritage Hayne claims to be a Christian. He doesnt act like one though.


You know, that might actually help explain things here though.

I would imagine most Christians (and muslims _especially_) have a little bit of a different concept of what sexual consent from most atheist liberal Australians these days.

In muslim societies, if a woman even enters the same bedroom as a man, she has pretty much already consented to sex, and it will be nearly impossible for her to claim rape.

I bet if you talk to most conservative Christian women the first thing they will say is "Why did the woman allow the man in her bedroom? Why didn't she scream?" 

On the extreme opposite end of the stick, some radical feminists think that if a man is already engaging in intercourse, if he doesn't pull out of the woman the very second she says "I don't want to do this", he has raped her. (There was actually a case in Australia where a man was prosecuted for rape because it took him 10 or 15 seconds to pull out)

----------


## kazenatsu

> He serenaded her with the song Wonderwall. But an Ed Sheeran cover. Ha. WTF? 
> I said maybe! You gonna be the one that saves me!


The lyrics in that song seem almost prophetic in retrospect. 

"By now you should've somehow realized what you got to do" 


Wonder if that was a Freudian slip, him deciding to play this song to her.

----------

