# Stuff and Things > The Pub >  The Realm of the Supernatural

## gregonejeep

Many state it exists, and as many will say it does not exist. And even many Christians do not feel comfortable speaking on the subject, even though their fervent faith in the existence of God...falls in to this realm. I like to start my topics by using my source for the* definition of a word*, which is my old large Webster's Collegiate Dictionary sitting on my office shelf.

My WCD defines the word *Supernatural*:

"of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. esp: of or related to God or a god, demigod, *spirit* or devil. Departing from what is normal esp: so as to transcend the Laws of Nature ".

As I stated in the Atheist thread, people that do believe in the supernatural (SN) whether they are a Christian or not, will be "reserved" about stating their own SN experiences. Simply because they will use caution doing so, for fear they will be perceived as one that is delusional, irrational or even having other mental or societal "disorders". 

One must use caution also, when reading or listening to people's SN experiences. Because as we know magicians, illusionists, card readers, mind readers and even television shows may use the premise of the SN to make a paycheck. This thread is not for those people or their customers to post their SN experience, that was based on a *motive.*

 It is for people that are not afraid to post about their belief in the SN, because they believe they *had a supernatural experience*. Please, feel free to ask questions about the posters SN experience and why they believe they had a SN experience. And I am one of those people that believe in the realm of the "supernatural".   
I just ask that all poster's replying to this thread do so, while refraining from snarky insinuations or ridicule directed at the poster.  Instead, direct your disbelief or belief...at the SN experience being posted.

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East of the Beast (05-07-2020),Jen (05-07-2020),QuaseMarco (05-07-2020),SharetheHedge (05-07-2020)

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## East of the Beast

The Third Heaven
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tool...e-third-heaven

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## UKSmartypants

See i believe in science. that doesnt mean i dont believe in the paranormal, cos its pretty clear the amount we know about the Universe is far from a complete picture. So, i remain open minded about everything until i get sufficient proof (in my view) one way or another.

The phrase 'conspiracy theory' really annoys me. I can give you a list of 25 'Conspiracy Theories' that turned out to be true.

As a sample, Im fairly convinced, atm, pending any other evidence that:

-we made alien contact in about 1956
-we have reverse engineered alien tech
-marilyn  monroe was killed by the kennedys to shut her up
-we definitely landed on the moon
-the world isnt flat
-there is no Nibiru
-if God exists he must be at least a 22 dimensional being to fit in with M Theory


what id like to know more about is

-why does every human lose 22g weight at the moment of death?
-how can kids recall 'previous lives'
-what are the orbs recorded on video at supposedly haunted locations?


more evidence needed !

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Mr. Claws (04-20-2022)

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## gregonejeep

> See i believe in science. that doesnt mean i dont believe in the paranormal, cos its pretty clear the amount we know about the Universe is far from a complete picture. So, i remain open minded about everything until i get sufficient proof (in my view) one way or another.
> 
> The phrase 'conspiracy theory' really annoys me. I can give you a list of 25 'Conspiracy Theories' that turned out to be true.
> 
> As a sample, Im fairly convinced, atm, pending any other evidence that:
> 
> -we made alien contact in about 1956
> -we have reverse engineered alien tech
> -marilyn  monroe was killed by the kennedys to shut her up
> ...


Good reply ^^ and I agree. But this SN evidence cannot be presented for evidence because the person(s) SN experience  cannot be reproduced for others to see, feel, hear, etc. 

I am in the middle of doing laundry right now and vacuuming the house, while the missus is bringing back a few groceries.  I will be back on later to post some of my own SN's to be "grilled" by the members.  :Smile:

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## Robert Urbanek

> Good reply ^^ and I agree. But this SN evidence cannot be presented for evidence because the person(s) SN experience  cannot be reproduced for others to see, feel, hear, etc. 
> 
> I am in the middle of doing laundry right now and vacuuming the house, while the missus is bringing back a few groceries.  I will be back on later to post some of my own SN's to be "grilled" by the members.


Let us know if you have a paranormal experience while vacuuming your house:

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## SharetheHedge

> Good reply ^^ and I agree. But this SN evidence cannot be presented for evidence because the person(s) SN experience  cannot be reproduced for others to see, feel, hear, etc. 
> 
> I am in the middle of doing laundry right now and vacuuming the house, while the missus is bringing back a few groceries.  *I will be back on later to post some of my own SN's to be "grilled" by the members.*



I am prepping the Weber Gen.II E-355 propane unit now  :Cool20:

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## gregonejeep

> I am prepping the Weber Gen.II E-355 propane unit now


O.K. SH, fair enough. But before you can grill me about the OP, I will expect you to read the large posts of mine that I posted on 05/01/2016 on my birthday, that tells my true story of why I became a believer in not only the SN, but the existence of an afterlife and Christ. 

 Lets take each one of my old posts and you can grill me on each one, as I post them. Below is a copy of my *first* post I made in Jen's thread on page 74 of the R&P Forum about the "Hereafter". And these posts comprise my first large novel I wrote on TPF. I will post the rest of the consecutive posts in descending order one at a time, until we reach the end of my novel.

 I will only post another post from the novel, after you or others have "grilled" the previous one. And I will answer yours or anyone else's questions regarding the post to the best of my memory, as long as *civility* is maintained. If and when, civility leaves this thread... is when I leave this thread.   

On May 1, 2016 GOJ wrote > I never thought I would have so much to say on my first post, but this one hits home with me...so to speak...

I too, was in the same frame of mind as you are Pepper .... back when I was in my early 20's.  Now today with me being 63 years old and have over time, found answers to many of the same questions that you have. When one speaks of spirituality, the afterlife or of any religion of any sorts for that matter..... there are many answers to the many questions and they will vary.  And those answers will only ring true so many times, just to those reading/listening that has also experienced.... what they are being told/reading. I will post my experiences in dealing with spirituality and religion, in smaller segments as to not put everyone asleep that is reading my posts here.... all at the same time.... :Smiley20: 

My Mother had been raised as a Southern Baptist and although she did not attend church every Sunday with us 9 kids, she made sure that we went to church every Sunday. But she also gave us all the option that when we reached the age of 13, to make our own choice of whether we wanted to continue going to church. So I chose to stop going to church at 13 y.o and never darkened the door of a church again, until I was 29 y.o. Therefore,  I never joined the little rural church that I went to as a kid, nor was I ever " baptized".   I never "learned" the KJV Bible, but I was good at going to the church hayrides, the Easter egg hunts and falling asleep in the pews.  

Moving forward in time now, at age 25 I tried to visit my Mother at least once a week, as she was at that time 65 years old, a widow and living alone. Whenever our visit was winding down, I would tell Mom that I needed to go and almost on every one of my exit's.... Mom would stand up, put her arms around me and give me a big hug and kiss on the cheek. Then, she would take me by the shoulders with both of her feeble arms and look me in the eye and say to me....
" Have you ever went back to church and been saved " ???  My reply to my Mother for too many years was almost always the same, " No Mom, I have not been baptized yet. I don't have time for all that mumbo jumbo and I have better things to do with my life right now". She would just look at me sadly, then let go of my shoulders and tell me that she loved me and would see me again next week.  Cont...

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## SharetheHedge

> O.K. SH, fair enough. But before you can grill me about the OP, I will expect you to read the large posts of mine that I posted on 05/01/2016 on my birthday, that tells my true story of why I became a believer in not only the SN, but the existence of an afterlife and Christ. 
> 
>  Lets take each one of my old posts and you can grill me on each one, as I post them. Below is a copy of my *first* post I made in Jen's thread on page 74 of the R&P Forum about the "Hereafter". And these posts comprise my first large novel I wrote on TPF. I will post the rest of the consecutive posts in descending order one at a time, until we reach the end of my novel.
> 
>  I will only post another post from the novel, after you or others have "grilled" the previous one. And I will answer yours or anyone else's questions regarding the post to the best of my memory, as long as *civility* is maintained. If and when, civility leaves this thread... is when I leave this thread.





Relax - I'm just kidding  :Smiley20:

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## gregonejeep

> Relax - I'm just kidding


All good....next chapter here,

May 1, 2016 GOJ wrote > Continuing my novel here..... :Yawn: 

So one Sunday I stopped by to visit Mom and for whatever reason, I was not in the best of moods. So as usual as I was leaving,  Mom asked me had I found a church yet, blah, blah, so I sort of lost it gently ....while letting out a sigh and sitting down. I asked her, " Just why is it that you are so worried about me going to church and being baptized Mom" ??

She replied to me, " Son, I am not getting any younger and I do not want to take my last breath and know that you have not been saved".  I said to her, " Saved from what Mom" ??

She then said to me, " Saved from the eternal damnation of Hell, because you have not taken Christ as your Lord, or been baptized, so when you die your soul will be sent to Hell"....

Being just 26 years old at the time, I was stricken speechless for the moment and just sat there while trying to digest what my Mom had just stated to me. As a child yes, my Sunday school teacher had taught this "Hell Fire and Damnation" dogma, but as a child back then... those words were scary to me . So I chose to not think of the Hell business and to think more about the hayrides, Easter egg hunts and my little girl friend sitting beside me in SS class. Why would a grown woman, my Mom... now be telling me this sort of crazy thing at my age ??  So, I had the free time on my hands and rather than leaving Mom standing with her words unanswered, I chose instead to debate with my Mom about her misconceived notion.  So while using my youthful intellect and logistical powers of reasoning  :Thinking:  I had at that time ..... I started a debate with my Mom.... 

It went as follows fairly accurately and to the best of my recollection after 37 years now....... 

Me... So Mom, if you are right about this Hell Fire thing, then to me this means after the physical body has died, then something from it has to live on ...passed the death of the body.  If this "something" does not live on, then there is nothing to be burned in this "Hell" that you speak of .... right ? 

Mom... That is right.  It is called your "soul" and it leaves a person's body when they die. 

Me...  So if what you are saying is true now, there must be what I hear is called an "Afterlife" right ? 

Mom... I don't know anything about that, I just know in my heart that  if you are not saved, your soul will go to Hell, as it will be judged and will go to Heaven if the person was a believer.

Me.... So, by me accepting Christ, being baptized, my soul will not be going to Hell ?

Mom.... That is what I believe and millions and millions more people do too. I was baptized when I was 12 years old, so I don't have the doubts that you do.

Me. .. So to me Mom, for me to honestly believe what you are telling me, there HAS to be something beyond the grave like an afterlife, a soul, something that lives on after death. 

Mom... You are getting too deep for me now, but o.k. I see what you saying.

Me.... Mom, have you ever talked to anyone in say the passed 60 years, seen anything, felt anything.... that proved to you that after someone had died, yet they still existed in some form on earth ? 

Mom... No...

Me... So how can you say this soul, afterlife etc. exists ? 

Mom... I cannot prove it, it is based on my faith.

Me.... O.K. Mom, I see now that I am not getting anywhere here. Because I believe in order for something to "exist" there must be proof of it.  That proof to me, is with me being able to see, hear, touch or smell that "something's" existence. So far now, I am not hearing from you anything that proves to me, that we have anything that exists beyond the grave. So Mom, let us make a pact together that may help prove to me that this "afterlife/soul" thing exists. We know that  I am 26 y.o. now and you are 66 y.o. now. ....

By all standards, you will most likely pass away before I do. So let us promise to each other right now and make a* life pact, that whichever one of us passes away first will and if they can.... give a "sign" to the survivor. Anything.... like moving a book, picking up a lamp, carrying a picture across the room. .. just something to prove there is something that exists after the death of the body and there is an "afterlife".  Also Mom, as part of this pact we are making now.... will you agree to stop harping on me to get saved ?  

Mom.... O.K son. I will keep this promise with you if I go first and I won't mention to you about getting saved again. And for the next next 15 years, Mom never mentioned my "salvation" again.  To be continued.....*

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## SharetheHedge

Is this the story about the bed shaking?

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## gregonejeep

> Is this the story about the bed shaking?


You have read some of it already then ?  O.K. I will continue on though, as that is not my total reasoning for believing in supernatural events and Christ. 

Plus humor me here SH, as someone else may find my story entertaining or at least thought provoking. And after reading my novel of posts one at a time, they may want to post their opinions or ideas on my experiences.

GOJ wrote > 
Fast forward 15 years now. Mom was 81 y.o. and still living alone in her apartment and I was 41 y.o. and was on my second marriage. Busy with my new second marriage and home, I did not get to visit her as often.  It had been 3 weeks since I had visited her and one Sunday afternoon my sister called.  She had opened Mom's apt. door with her key when Mom did not answer the doorbell. My sister found Mom sitting peacefully in her easy chair, her favorite romance book still in her hand with its pages open and her hand still on the page she had been reading. Mom's head was slumped over and she had passed away peacefully ... 

Approximately 35 days after we buried Mom, something happened in my home that initiated this mini novel I have written here . My wife and I were working alternate shifts back then, so we went to bed at different times and got up at different times. But there was a time lag where we were actually sleeping together for about 4 hours during the night.  One night at exactly 2:00 am I was suddenly awakened by something. As I sat up in bed the mattress under me was shaking side to side very briskly.....

 I looked over at the bedroom door and my wife was standing there looking back at me, along with our Chow dog that had her hackles bristled up and she was growling in a low pitch. Both were staring at the bed.  Just as I was quickly asking my wife was there a tremor or anything else moving on the walls like pictures, etc.... in that exact moment the mattress stopped shaking....

My wife instantly replied in a shaky voice, " NO, nothing is moving on the walls and no pictures have moved".  I intentionally did not get up, nor did I discuss with her what had just happened when she asked me.  I wanted us to both to be wide awake, alert, and to not influence each others testimony of what they had experienced by discussing it with heightened emotions.  So, I told her it was late and I needed to try to get some more sleep, and that we would talk tomorrow about it after work. When we got home from work the following day we sat down at the kitchen table with our coffee. I told my wife, " O.K. now you tell me exactly what happened last night ".  

She said she was suddenly awakened and the mattress was shaking side to side. She told me she instantly jumped up and when her feet hit the floor she could see the dog was standing in door way looking back at the bed with her hackles up and growling.

     She said as soon as she got to the doorway and looked back at the mattress it was still shaking, and at that instant I sat up and asked her , " Was it a tremor, was anything else on the wall moving " ??   Then my wife, asked me about what I had seen and experienced.  I told her exactly what I had experienced and our experience's of the event matched perfectly.  ...

We discussed for a while what could have happened but, neither of us could come up with a reason or any logic whatsoever, as to what could have caused the mattress shaking.  It could not be dreams, as one was up and awake before the other. One of us could have been in a "dream like state" but my wife was up before I was.  It could not be induced mass hysteria, as once again, she was up before I was. She, nor the dog could have been shaking the mattress as they were both standing in the door when I sat up and it was still shaking....

 So in knowing these things, this left only one unknown to discuss and neither one of us were willing to go in to a conversation about our home maybe being " haunted" as we had just bought our home two months earlier, and surely could not afford to move. So we finished our coffee and agreed to just let a "sleeping dog lie" about the mattress shaking event. 

But, not a day went by for the next month, that I did not think about the event. Being a realist, I knew a physical object cannot move on its own unless there is a kinetic energy force moving it, a hand, a earth tremor, a force of wind, a tilting foundation, a magnetic field opposed...but the mattress was cloth and the bed rails were all wood. So there was no tremor, no wind, no one in the room to move the mattress.   So HOW in this world,  did our shaking mattress awaken myself and my wife at different times, and we both witnessed the exact same events unfold ?   

One day in to the second month after the "event", something happened while I was working to make me instantly think of Mom and the times we had spent together visiting.  Then suddenly, a particular time came to my mind .... a time 15 years earlier when Mom and I had made the life pact together.  As a child growing up and even as an adult, whenever I slept over at my Mom's apartment, she always awakened me for breakfast the same way. She would put her knee against the head of my mattress and rock it violently side to side...until I would awaken.

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## gregonejeep

Now that I have bored the readers with my "afterlife" mini novel above, I think it is only fitting that I follow up with why even after I saw "proof " of the existence of life after death fulfilled from my Mother's promise to me....... and that as of today, I still have not been baptized.  So going back again now....

About a year after the "pact" was made with my Mom, I was at work one day and one of my co-worker's was ranting about the biblical prophesy of the "end times". He was blathering about we did not have much time left for our world.  ...

 He was quoting bible scripture about the floods and earthquakes that we were having (1979- ish), the bad weather, the wars, the aids virus, the starvation going on in the world, the moon had turned to blood red (eclipse) on and on... he said all of these thing going on at that time were "signs" of the END times.  So, when the guy shut up just for a moment, I asked him where in the world did he come up this kind of stuff. He said to me, " You don't have to take my word for it, look it up in the Book of Revelations in the Bible" for yourself.... 

So, not to be one up staged by a wise guy, when I got home that evening I dug out the old and dusty family KJV Bible, that was handed down to me over the years. I found the chapter at the back of the book called Revelations. I skimmed through the pages while looking for these "signs" of the end times. I tried to understand what I was reading, but the words read to me like someone on LSD typing out one of their experiences. So I put the Bible back on the shelf and was satisfied with my accomplishment of at least finding out, what the wise guy at work was ranting about. He was just another fanatical Bible thumper I thought to myself, so I just let it go. Me and my buddies at that time, enjoyed going to stripper bars, we kept girlie magazines in our trucks to share viewing and I loved hunting animals. I did not want anything to do with any Bible thumpers messing up my fun life by preaching to me, and making me out to be some kind of "sinner".. . 

About 2 weeks later one night I found myself dreaming. It was one of those almost "surreal" dreams to where I could "feel" just like I was standing in my dreams location. I was at my sister's and BIL farm at a cookout, like that we had every summer and the night's darkness had already set in. The hay wagon was pulled out under the big maple tree, the plastic sheets spread out on it with fried food and the vegetables from their huge garden.The freshly killed mutton was in the black kettle getting cooked by the open fire. A huge floodlight on a power pole lit up the party area for us. ...

  As I finished up a cold drink, I felt the urge to walk back in to the field a short distance and go behind the big tobacco barn and take a whiz.  It was a night of bright white stars, so I did not even need a flashlight as I walked towards the barn. As I walked up to the back corner of the barn, I suddenly felt like something was pulling on my head making me look up at the night sky. So I looked up at the sky and I saw where that all of the bright white stars in the night's sky, had pulled together and made a perfectly, symmetrical.... star lit cross. The bottom of the cross sat just above the tree line on the farms back field, and the top of it ended almost at the 12 o'clock position in the sky.  At that exact moment, I woke up from my dream. Cont...

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## gregonejeep

The following couple of days I could not get the starkness of the dream that I had...... out of my mind. Why would I be having a dream of a religious symbol, when I had not pursued any religious endeavors, other than the time I had looked at the Book of Revelations to see what the "end times" meant ? I did know at that time, I was at one of the lowest points in my life. My lovely bride of just 18 months had walked out on me just 6 months prior to the dream and I was still so heart broken sick from her loss, I had become a recluse of sorts.  I had just gotten laid off from my job, our nation was in a deep recession and jobs were scarce. I had no paychecks coming in and I was living day to day on my little savings that I had. Now adding to my list of problems, I was having nightmares about a HUGE star lit cross hovering above me menacingly....

After a few more days from the "dream", life for me went full circle again. I got my old job back working alongside the Bible thumper again...the one that had be stirred me up before about the "end times"  that he was preaching about.  When he questioned me how I ended up back working with him again, I told him just enough of about my problems to quench his curiosity. He looked at me and said, " You are being tested" and as he turned and started walking away I asked him, "  WTH does that supposed to mean " ?  He replied, " Look it up in your Bible sometime"..... and kept walking... 

So with me at that time going home to a small, "mostly void of luxuries" apartment every night.... this fact did not afford me with a whole lot of things to do after work. So one night I got to thinking about the guy at work telling me I was being "tested".   So WTH, I had plenty of time and nothing but a TV with 6 channels on it to watch, so I pulled the old, dusty family* KJV Bible out of the bookshelf and opened it to the first page of Genesis. As I read the first page, it became mildly interesting reading to me, as I recognized the Adam and Eve story from my Bible School classes as a kid. As I went on to the next few pages, my interest waned somewhat. Here I was again, reading words and sentences put together like someone that had just recovered from a massive brain injury, and had decided to write a book.  Very few of the sentences that I was reading made any sense to me. The task I was doing was making my head light and my eyes bleary, so I put the Bible back on the shelf and went to bed....

The following day after I got home from work and sat down, somehow my curiosity was still alive about what was in this Bible that could be.... so called, "testing" me. So I pulled the old Bible from the shelf again but this time, I chose to go to the what looked to be...the second half of the book. It was marked as the, " New Testament" and it had really cool, red text in its sentences, that were supposed to be the actual words that Christ had spoken.  As I started reading the sentences in the Book of Saint Matthew ....suddenly pow ! there were those same words again that made no sense to me... Abraham begat Issac and Issac begat Jacob and on ....on and on. But I pushed on in my reading that night. At least no sheep were being slaughtered as sacrificial offerings nor anyone was being stoned to death.  The next night as I read the NT the words in the Scriptures on the pages were actually falling in place, the sentences in the Scriptures were making ... a little more sense to me...

As each night passed while I was reading the NT, it became so much easier to me to understand the sentences written. As I read each line, it felt as if the words were "speaking" back to me. Each night as I read more Scripture I started to feel this sense of "peacefulness" in me.  It seemed like the more I read the Scriptures, the more this sense of, "tranquility" enveloped me.  At work each day, I noticed that I had more respect and tolerance for my co-workers.  I was losing my old ways of wanting to bust someone in the chops, whenever they irritated me. I could feel what seemed like a "presence" of some kind in me, like nothing I had ever felt. My bad thoughts about harming myself in my darkest moments, like that I had right after my divorce ...had left me. As I read the Scriptures each night in the NT, the knowledge I was deriving from words of Christ were changing me on the inside, in to someone that I did not recognize, but I was enjoying the much needed change. Something major was going on with this Scripture reading that I was doing at that time in my life, that lead to a lot of interesting changes in me..... Cont....*

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## gregonejeep

Each day as I went to work I was confused by the way my inner being was changing. Some days my co-workers would be cursing and being all mad while ranting about something happening in their lives. Instead of me adding my own cursing and spiteful conversations in with theirs, like that had I always done to fit in... I just felt a peace inside of me.  I no longer enjoyed their drama as it actually felt like I was listening to fingernails dragging across a black board. Soon my co-workers picked up on that I no longer wanted to be "mingled in" with their darker aspect of the world. They could tell the cursing, their constant male bravado crude acts was bothering me. One of the guys finally was just too curious to let it go, so he called me out.   He said to me, " Hey Greg, you haven't went all "Holy Roller" on us have you " ??? and chuckled. I replied to him, "No, I am just spending some of my spare time trying to figure out what the Scriptures in the Bible mean". ....And with that, and with me not knowing at the time, my "test" had begun......

Every night that I read the NT Scriptures and with every sentence that I read, I started to feel like that I had opened the master book of how mankind.... is suppose to live their lives. I had become a human vacuum, while sucking in more and more spiritual knowledge from the Bible and yet I felt a "presence" about me .... one that was somehow helping me make sense of the words/sentences in the Scriptures. My accumulative knowledge about the Bible has changed my whole persona, and I could not hide it, nor did I want to. I just knew that my reading of the Scriptures had changed my heart. I was no longer a cursing, bar hopping, person doing crude acting male stuff, but I had slowly turned in to this kind, peaceful, tolerant, giving, not wanting to harm anything or anyone... Bible reading person. I did know I was changing inside...

But I did *not know why I was changing. What was different about my reading the Bible post the star lit cross dream , and back when I had just flipped through the Bible's pages to find the words a co-worker was ranting about the "end times" ? NONE of the Bible's sentences made any sense to me back then, so why do they now ????    Then, it suddenly came to me ... maybe a why. When I was looking for the "end times" reading in the Bible back then, my life was at the highest and happiest point in my life....

 At that time I had a good job, a lovely young bride, I was building us a new home.... everything about my world was great. So while reading the Bible in searching for the "end of the world" stuff, I did so with a closed mind and heart as I was on top of my world. I was just curious to see if my co-worker was full of B.S. about his "end of the world" blathering. There was nothing in the Bible at that time that I needed, therefore my heart was not open to anything it said to me.  It was just a book of religious gibberish to me , with verses being written down in it for 2000 + years by some old, long bearded dudes in robes and sandals. .. 

O.K. So I had rationalized to myself , that part of my question was made evident to me at least. I surmised that when people are at a low(est) point in their life or are truly in need, they can read the Bible and be more subject to understanding it. If they clear their mind of all doubts, fears, biased negative thoughts and truly open up their hearts.... like that I did after my "star lit" cross dream that I had.....the Bible can be understood....

 But I knew there had to more, because I KNEW what I was feeling and that I was slowly being changed inside, just by reading the Scripture's. Something was helping me to understand the true meaning of what I was reading and I just knew that I had came across the answer ...when I finally got to the(just now looked this up again in my KJV, it's been too long now to remember the verse) ......Book of Galatians 5.22-25. ...

When I read those verses, and knowing how I felt inside and how easy it was for me to read the Scriptures back then...I knew in my heart that I was being guided by the Spirit of Christ or at least ...an angel.  There was NO way in my 29 years of living at that time, that I could have EVER made the changes in my attributes or felt the peace that I felt...without the help of the "fruits" mentioned in Galatians 5. 22. I knew in my heart that with HIS help, that I had become a believer in Christ, ....so now what do I do ? I finally recognized the answer to my own question, so I started my quest.... Cont..*

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## gregonejeep

As a "Baby Christian"  I was not prepared for what my "new being" would bring about for me. Everyday at work someone would ask me a question to "test" my knowledge and convictions about religion and spirituality. Hardly a day went by that someone did not ask me something like, " Well,  Greg... if your God is real and is supposed to know ALL and we are His children...why does He allow our kids, our loved ones to be killed, maimed, tortured by sick perverts, die early deaths from accidents or awful diseases " ??   Why does He permit so much pain for us to bear here on earth if, he LOVES us so much ?... 

At that time, I had answers for all kinds of those type questions presented to me, as I had the Holy Ghost, Christ Spirit, whatever one chooses to name the entity/deity...helping me.  It was like that I had a data cord plugged in to my brain that ran right back to my Bible.  But I was really not prepared for how my new conviction to Christ and my new found spiritual knowledge, would be a stumbling block for me in my day to day life. My family was large way back then, with 5 sisters and 3 brothers, with 4 of the 7 being alcoholics and probably 40 more family members branched out.  My absolute best friend of 20 years that I grew up with, had no tolerance for religious conversations. My friends that I rode my motorcycle with back then, that I used to go to the bars with, none of them had any use for religion. Just one or two of all my co-workers at that time.... had any religious tolerance. ...

So as I kept up my Bible studies at home and while stepping lightly around my non-religious friends and family that I mingled with, I come to the realization that in order for me to keep my faith...I needed to find a church to join, become a member and be baptized. I needed the support of like minded Christians to help bolster my faith and to even help me from, "back sliding" in to my old lost being.  So I started my trek of each Sunday going to a church and staying for the morning worship....
 I listened intently as the pastor flipped the pages of their Bible or notes on the pulpit, and read from them for an hour. When he/she was finished with the sermon, I found myself not inspired and disappointed.  I was let down spiritually, in that the pastor had deviated in their sermon the* written word of the Bible.... that I had already read and understood. It was like they had re-designed the words so the congregation listening would not be offended, or frightened but instead...would hopefully walk away that morning with a warm fuzzy feeling and come back again....  

I went from church to church on my quest for finding THE right one for me. I spoke to a few of the pastor's at these churches of like denominations and told some of them about my "star lit cross" dream and then asked them.... if they thought I had  been, "called" to Christ. When I used the word "called" the smile left their faces. It was easy to see the pastor listening to my witness, had little regards for a person walking in from the street mentioning they may have been  "called'. So as the weeks passed by and my search for a church waned and my friends and family were slowly pulling away from me... the feeling of isolationism and loneliness started setting in on me. ...

My nights spent studying the Bible became fewer, and slowly I could feel my desire to learn more .... was diminishing. In just a matter of a few more weeks, I no longer felt my "spiritual helper" was with me any longer as I read the Bible.  In just a few more weeks, my desire to read the Bible had ended and my "new" being had returned to the old one, the rowdy one.....

 Slowly I went back to my old ways, but with some moderation.  I even tried going back in to one of the stripper bars that I used to go to, but as soon as I walked through the door...it felt like a wet blanket was thrown on me so I turned and left ....and never went back.  I was no longer "enlightened" in spirituality, as I no longer read the Bible with vigor, but I was still a believer in Christ. Now today, I have been living the passed 35 years of my life as a non -church going, non- baptized person..... yet a believer...

 I did learn from my Biblical "experience" that Christ is real, the afterlife is real, and that being a Christian is not a whimsical event a person just does to make themselves feel or look better to others. Because being a true Christian, is a life long journey that will have stumbling blocks of some sort every day to overcome and a deep faith in Christ will help a person overcome these obstacles. I for one, did not have the intestinal fortitude that it it took ...to walk the long journey.  I was given my chance to be "saved" and I did not go through with it. So now when I take my last breath and with all my health problems that I have ....may not be long, I will just have to hope that my soul will be judged.... accordingly.  The end .....*

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## SharetheHedge

I'm not going to question the hard details of your experience as you might get upset. That's NOT to say I have a natural explanation either. IOW, I'm not being condescending as if I know it wasn't real. I don't know that. It's just evident that there are strong emotions involved for you and I respect that. 

There are a couple things about your interpretation of it all that concern me, though, and that I may be able to point out. Can I explain those? Again, I'm not challenging WHAT you believe happened, just how it squares with the bible and fundamental Christian beliefs. (you probably know what I'm going to say by now?  :Smiley20: )

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## gregonejeep

> I'm not going to question the hard details of your experience as you might get upset. That's NOT to say I have a natural explanation either. IOW, I'm not being condescending as if I know it wasn't real. I don't know that. It's just evident that there are strong emotions involved for you and I respect that. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are a couple things about your interpretation of it all that concern me, though, and that I may be able to point out. Can I explain those? Again, I'm not challenging WHAT you believe happened, just how it squares with the bible and fundamental Christian beliefs. (you probably know what I'm going to say by now? )




I am not going to get upset about anyone questioning my experience(s). As I posted way back, I expect to be grilled. Fire away...

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## SharetheHedge

> I am not going to get upset about anyone questioning my experience(s). As I posted way back, I expect to be grilled. Fire away...



I am not going to "grill" - only "parboil"  :Cool20: 

You must have realized that the idea of human spirits "walking the earth" after death does not square with what most Christians believe? Do you allow for the possibility that it was GOD that shook the bed, in your mother's stead, knowing what she had said to you? 

Also, why do you doubt that you are saved, NOW? If you believe, "Christ is real", (like you said), doesn't that fulfill what Jesus told Thomas - "Blessed are those who have NOT seen and yet believe"? Have you been influenced by a particular Church that would cause you to doubt that faith alone is ENOUGH to be saved?

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## gregonejeep

> i am not going to "grill" - only "parboil" 
> 
> You must have realized that the idea of human spirits "walking the earth" after death does not square with what most christians believe?   I know that Christians do not feel comfortable with any conversation about "spirits" being on earth. And I will have a Q & A with any Christian, that wants to debate this topic on a different thread. 
> 
> Now, at the risk of reading "cult-ish", I believe that every human being has a soul that was created by God, which I choose to call a "spirit". And their soul/spirit was incarnated in to them at birth. Our flesh and blood bodies are merely "transporters" for the spirit within us. And from the time of our birth to the time of our death, our soul/spirit is "developing" from our own will and actions we take. (a whole bigger topic) 
> 
> And I also believe that when our souls/spirit's are released from our dead bodies they can upon their choice, stay earthbound for a while. ...    Also a "spirit'" is mentioned in KJV Mark: 9.16 where Christ speaks to the dumb "spirit" in a human. 
> 
> Do you allow for the possibility that it was god that shook the bed, in your mother's stead, knowing what she had said to you? No, i do not. As God does not have any "hand" in the theatrics of the loosed "spirits" that make themselves known to some of us here on earth. Now, can i prove that the "motor" for our mattress shaking was my mother's spirit ? No, I cannot. And since that night 28 years ago, I have had many more SN experiences happen to me. And one with the testimony of another person that was involved.  And each SN proved to me,  that a "spirit" made themselves known.   
> ...

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## SharetheHedge

_



			
				I know that Christians do not feel comfortable with any conversation about "spirits" being on earth. And I will have a Q & A with any Christian, that wants to debate this topic on a different thread.

Now, at the risk of reading "cult-ish", I believe that every human being has a soul that was created by God, which I choose to call a "spirit". And their soul/spirit was incarnated in to them at birth. Our flesh and blood bodies are merely "transporters" for the spirit within us. And from the time of our birth to the time of our death, our soul/spirit is "developing" from our own will and actions we take. (a whole bigger topic)

And I also believe that when our souls/spirit's are released from our dead bodies they can upon their choice, stay earthbound for a while. ... Also a "spirit'" is mentioned in KJV Mark: 9.16 where Christ speaks to the dumb "spirit" in a human.
			
		

_


> _No__, i do not. As God does not have any "hand" in the theatrics of the loosed "spirits" that make themselves known to some of us here on earth. Now, can i prove that the "motor" for our mattress shaking was my mother's spirit ? No, I cannot. And since that night 28 years ago, I have had many more SN experiences happen to me. And one with the testimony of another person that was involved. And each SN proved to me, that a "spirit" made themselves known._
> 
> 
> _If one will do some searching, most churches here in the usa recognize "baptism" as the final act of commitment in receiving Christ's "salvation". The KJV NT has numerous scriptures where Christ mentions where baptism is needed. Even the RCC like to baptize their members infant's very shortly after birth. To me, this shows even they believe that Baptism is the ultimate act to solidify, ones soul/spirit salvation. So they do not want to risk one soul, that may be loosed too early in life.
> _
> 
> 
> _my church "influence" has always been the Baptist church but as my novel indicated, that was not for very long as an adult. . Also KJV 2 Peter vs. 20 and 21 tells us, " for if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of the lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they again are entangled within and overcome, the latter end is worse for them, than the beginning ".
> 
> __So I do not believe that just because one believes in Christ, they are saved. I was given His Grace, but was not strong enough to live it so "salvation wise", I am in worse shape than one that does not believe in Christ.. . Sorry about the lack of large cap letters as needed, the spelling corrector god just took it over and took away my cap letters._ __


_


If you are certain that water baptism is a_ _prerequisite__ for salvation, why don't you just get baptized NOW? You are sounding like it is too late for you to be saved - even though you are STILL ALIVE? I understand the "once saved always saved" vs. "You CAN lose it" debate, but I've never heard anyone argue that there is no chance for them to be saved when they haven't DIED YET. That would repudiate the whole concept of "grace through faith"._

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## SharetheHedge

Jeep, since there are, as of yet, no others joining in to share possible SE testimonies, I have copied my post from a while ago on the UFO I believe I saw back in 1965. Yes, the "Village Skeptic" is actually admitting to having seen/experienced something inexplicable. My only disclaimer is that I'm not sure it is TECHNICALLY "supernatural", because if UFO's are visitors from other planets they don't really qualify as representing a reality from BEYOND our universe. I don't claim to know what they are, so it could go either way? 

Anyway, here was my description of the object...

_
I saw it sitting back from, and looking out of a 2nd story window so I only saw it appear from the bottom corner of the window and then, traveling at a 90 degree angle it was lost to view about less than 10 seconds later at the opposite top corner of the window. For the first 5 seconds or so I guess my mind didn't register it as anything strange because I was probably lost in thought otherwise, but I then remember being startled and thinking - "What the hell IS that!?"

The characteristics were...

Not saucer-shaped but cylindrical, although the ends were not squared off but more rounded. I don't remember exactly if it was dull gray or brighter silver but it definitely looked metallic. The surface was smooth, with no markings, except that, in the middle, there was a round protrusion which I couldn't make out the details of (see pic). There was no sound that I could hear (from that distance anyway), no wings, no visible means of propulsion. It was NOT a kite, balloon, or the type of radio-controlled hobby planes that were known back then. It moved slowly and deliberately maybe 8 to 10 MPH without wavering.

Many years later, I found a chart of UFO shapes that were the most commonly reported. I was thrilled to find a couple that closely matched what I saw that day....

F7 is the closest for overall shape if you imagine that the protrusion on top is turned to face TOWARDS you as in G3. G3 however, is too "fat" over all and not elongated enough. So it's like a combination of the two, but F7 is more accurate as to overall shape, and G3 is more accurate as to the round anomaly being in the side and not on top..._

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## gregonejeep

Interesting experience that you have had with the "sighting" SH.  And I feel sure like me, you have been "reserved" about sharing your experience with anyone outside of close family or friends, while not wanting to be perceived as a "kook".  About anyone that is over 60 years old is aware of the guvmint "Project Blue Book" where they "opened an investigation" into their own military aviator's that reported these UFO sightings. And also, we know of the Roswell story and the "conflicting" reporting of those UFO vs.weather balloon, events.  

And just like with people telling about the supernatural events that I have experienced and posted, the same goes for the UFO'ers. There will be two fairly distinct "lines" drawn, of opinions from people. If after reading the many testimonies of the people sharing their "experiences" they will choose to take them as "phooey" and stay away from the topic. Or they will read them and say to themselves, " I will not disagree totally ,as I know people that I trust that have had similar experiences. But, they will still choose to stay silent also.

And I believe human beings are being pompous in their thinking, to have the strong belief that we humans on earth, are the only  human like beings EVER created in the universe since time began.  I recall many years ago, reading an article where people found the drawings etched out on cave walls that were drawn B.C. The drawings depicted a "spaceship" looking craft going across the clouds, and some even had what appeared to be a head sticking up inside of the craft. Now, did these pre-historic men have that wild of imaginations ?  Maybe, maybe not. 

And here is the makings of a conspiracy... :Smile:  Did anyone see the news article last week I believe it was, where the guvmint is releasing some of their data on their investigation on UFO's ? So now one can surmise if they choose to think..." Hmmm, why is it that all of these years of reported UFO sightings, the guvmint stayed quiet about them. Most likely for the fear that we the people would panic and go all apesht ?  And now they release some of their UFO information at a time when the public is fighting a "pandemic" ?  What better time to do so than right now? As the guvmint knows we could not care less about spaceships and little green men in them right now, as we cannot even buy TP or ground beef to grill out a burger.   

And the skeptics say about the UFO'ers just what they say about the "Bigfoot" believers. And that is, " If these alien space crafts and little alien beings exist, then why is it no one never finds a crashed craft ? And why is it in the times of people having the great camera 's that we have had since the 80's, their pics of the UFO spaceships and "Bigfoot" they take, seem to always be out of focus ?   :Smile:  

 And the same rule applies to people that testify about "UFO's, that apply to people that give testimonies of their religious experience or belief in the supernatural. Where they believe there is another realm or dimension of time where "souls/spirits" inhabit that is not visible to us. The skeptics cannot be given any *proof* of what they are reading or hearing in ones testimony, as they were not there to witness it. So they take it all as "phooey".  And it is certainly their prerogative and right to do so.

 So later on today I'll post some more of my true SN experiences with their religious overtones. If for nothing else, just so the readers can get a chuckle in these stressed out times and say out loud, " Ka-phooey, this GOJ guy is SO full of B.S." :Smiley20:

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SharetheHedge (05-08-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> _
> 
> 
> If you are certain that water baptism is a_ _prerequisite__ for salvation, why don't you just get baptized NOW? You are sounding like it is too late for you to be saved - even though you are STILL ALIVE? I understand the "once saved always saved" vs. "You CAN lose it" debate, but I've never heard anyone argue that there is no chance for them to be saved when they haven't DIED YET. That would repudiate the whole concept of "grace through faith"._


Good point SH. The thought had entered my mind in these troubling times when the CV hit. But now our churches are closed. Not just an excuse, but joining a church and getting Baptized is something that I know I need to do. 

One of the largest struggles I have had in my life since I retired 5 years ago now, was that I lost my sense of purpose. Because I spent 45 years of my life while using my skills daily, for the betterment of people's lives. I need and want to get that sense of purpose back, and becoming a member of a church and to start contributing to society again through their involvement of helping the needy..., is what I know I need to do. 

But if I do try again, I know I will have to be a lot more tolerant of the way the church's pastor...delivers the Word.  More so than I was of the pastor's preaching, in my spiritual knowledge endeavor back in the early 80's. When I left the churches and have never went back inside of one since, other than for a funeral service held for my family members or friends.

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SharetheHedge (05-08-2020)

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## S-N-A-F-U

Any Interest in spiritism is reflected in such activities as astrology, witchcraft, and the occult. In many parts of the world, people try to communicate with wicked spirits with the help of a psychic or a witch doctor. Many use divination to try to find out about the future. They look at the stars, search for omens, use a crystal ball, read the palm of a person’s hand, or have their own palm read.

Books, magazines, and movies present spiritism as harmless or intriguing. Some communication experts suggest that the way TV programs and movies portray the paranormal has strongly influenced what people believe. 

*What does the Bible say...* :Thinking: 

For example, Deuteronomy 18:10-13 states:  "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God."

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gregonejeep (05-08-2020)

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## gregonejeep

A few years ago, two of my brothers passed away in the same year.  The oldest one I'll call Joe was a Christian. He went to a Baptist church and was "saved" by Baptism at age 14. At his Baptismal Joe made his verbal commitment to Christ. And then, he was dunked in to the waters of the nearby local large creek by his pastor, with his fellow church members watching. Joe lived the Christian life during his high school years from all outward appearances, at least. Then, after his HS graduation he joined the military. 

And after his 4 year duty was up, Joe came out of the military and started living a "not so Christian" life. And for the next almost 45 years of his life, he "strayed" many times from his commitment to Christ. But he was a kind soul/spirit that would and did, many times literally give a needy person the coat from his back. And I remember like yesterday, as he brought his last bottle of cold beer from his cooler up to his lips that he would say, " Lord, please forgive me for my sinful ways, but I just have to drink this last cold one". About everyone that knew Ted was very fond of him, as he just had that "way" about him that attracted people to him.    


And my other older brother that I'll call Ted was an Atheist. Ted was my least favorite brother as he made my young life as a 8-10 year old miserable, too many times. As I became his favorite kid to pick on and beat up when Mom and Dad were not home. And even when we both became adults, I had to be cautious of any dealings with him. He left more than a few people behind him, that were not at all happy about their life's time spent with him. He had a lot of friends just like my brother Joe did, but they knew to set boundaries in their dealings with him.   

Ted passed away first and his end days were spent in a hospital. And even after his Doctor had given him his terminal diagnosis, he would not accept it. As every time I visited him he would look at me with the same wild look of fear in his eyes, that I had never seen before. As Ted had lived a life that proved he was not afraid of anything, as he would fight a running chainsaw. And every time I visited Ted during his last days he would tell me, " I'll be getting out of this bed and going home soon".  But sadly, he was wrong.

And I went to see Joe in the hospital at his end days and his Doc had also given him, his terminal diagnosis. But as I talked to him, his eyes were still soft and peaceful looking.  And even until his last day, I could see that somehow Joe was at peace with his coming demise. He gave me a "rosary" of beads that he had in his bedside table and he told me to keep them to remember him. He was not a Catholic, so I do not how he got the rosary beads. I did not need his rosary beads, as I think of Joe almost everyday now, as he was my favorite brother.   

Both Joe and Ted were cremated and their ashes placed in urn's, then buried. And I miss them both today but I am also glad they are not suffering anymore. But I had no idea at that time of Ted's funeral, what was going to happen in my home within 3 weeks of his burial. Cont...

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## SharetheHedge

> Interesting experience that you have had with the "sighting" SH.  And I feel sure like me, you have been "reserved" about sharing your experience with anyone outside of close family or friends, while not wanting to be perceived as a "kook".  About anyone that is over 60 years old is aware of the guvmint "Project Blue Book" where they "opened an investigation" into their own military aviator's that reported these UFO sightings. And also, we know of the Roswell story and the "conflicting" reporting of those UFO vs.weather balloon, events.  
> 
> And just like with people telling about the supernatural events that I have experienced and posted, the same goes for the UFO'ers. There will be two fairly distinct "lines" drawn, of opinions from people. If after reading the many testimonies of the people sharing their "experiences" they will choose to take them as "phooey" and stay away from the topic. Or they will read them and say to themselves, " I will not disagree totally ,as I know people that I trust that have had similar experiences. But, they will still choose to stay silent also.
> 
> And I believe human beings are being pompous in their thinking, to have the strong belief that we humans on earth, are the only  human like beings EVER created in the universe since time began.  I recall many years ago, reading an article where people found the drawings etched out on cave walls that were drawn B.C. The drawings depicted a "spaceship" looking craft going across the clouds, and some even had what appeared to be a head sticking up inside of the craft. Now, did these pre-historic men have that wild of imaginations ?  Maybe, maybe not. 
> 
> And here is the makings of a conspiracy... Did anyone see the news article last week I believe it was, where the guvmint is releasing some of their data on their investigation on UFO's ? So now one can surmise if they choose to think..." Hmmm, why is it that all of these years of reported UFO sightings, the guvmint stayed quiet about them. Most likely for the fear that we the people would panic and go all apesht ?  And now they release some of their UFO information at a time when the public is fighting a "pandemic" ?  What better time to do so than right now? As the guvmint knows we could not care less about spaceships and little green men in them right now, as we cannot even buy TP or ground beef to grill out a burger.   
> 
> And the skeptics say about the UFO'ers just what they say about the "Bigfoot" believers. And that is, " If these alien space crafts and little alien beings exist, then why is it no one never finds a crashed craft ? And why is it in the times of people having the great camera 's that we have had since the 80's, their pics of the UFO spaceships and "Bigfoot" they take, seem to always be out of focus ?   
> ...



I kind of place UFO's on a different level than most of what is considered paranormal. This is not because I saw one, though it may seem I would naturally be bias in favor of believing in them because of my experience. It is because there IS a lot of evidence for them, especially with the recent Navy footage and the apparent concession from the Pentagon that something REAL is going on there. I try to remain objective despite my experience. I still must concede that it MAY have been a hallucination, though I have never had any kind of hallucination before or since. I cannot deny that it is certainly possible that what I believe I saw was only in my MIND, but the evidence from other sources and the fact that what I saw pretty much exactly matches the illustrations of many other's sightings (see the chart - which I didn't know about at the time) would make it even more coincidental that I IMAGINED a peculiar shape that others had ALSO imagined, if it wasn't objectively real.

What I'm saying is, that to remain consistent, I must and DO apply my natural skepticism to my OWN experiences also. So what it boils down to, is, I wouldn't bet my LIFE that what I saw was a tangible reality, but I WOULD bet a few thousand bucks it was  :Cool20: 

Not to get too far into the specific subject of UFO's, but I am NOT convinced that, if real, they are visitors from other planets in our universe. That is only one possibility - no doubt the most immediate guess, but still only a GUESS. They may be something we haven't even THOUGHT OF. The thing I saw, for example, was too small for human sized occupants, so unless we want to go full "Men in Black" and suppose tiny alien species, (which can get silly) I think it was a PROBE or something robotic/automated. They may be able to alternate between the physical and the non-physical which is indicated by many sightings in which they have supposedly appeared and then disappeared  :Sofa:

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gregonejeep (05-08-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> Any Interest in spiritism is reflected in such activities as astrology, witchcraft, and the occult. In many parts of the world, people try to communicate with wicked spirits with the help of a psychic or a witch doctor. Many use divination to try to find out about the future. They look at the stars, search for omens, use a crystal ball, read the palm of a persons hand, or have their own palm read.
> 
> Books, magazines, and movies present spiritism as harmless or intriguing. Some communication experts suggest that the way TV programs and movies portray the paranormal has strongly influenced what people believe. 
> 
> *What does the Bible say...*
> 
> For example, Deuteronomy 18:10-13 states:  "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God."


I agree, that is why I posted this in my OP...

"One must use caution also, when reading or listening to people's SN experiences. Because as we know magicians, illusionists, card readers, mind readers and even television shows may use the premise of the SN to make a paycheck. This thread is not for those people or their customers to post their SN experience, that was based on a *motive ".

*

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S-N-A-F-U (05-09-2020)

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## gregonejeep

Another un-explainable SN event that happened to me. .

Back in the early 90's I got married and was doing a lot of work on our first "starter" home. My wife went to work at the hospital on second shift, so while she was gone I would try to get some of my work done and she would not have to endure the noise or mess. On the day of this SN event, my wife was at work and it was just me and our Chow dog in the house. 

I was in a storage room that was located in the basement, right under the kitchen. I was installing some wood 2" x2" 's strips on the cinder block wall, the shelf boards would lay on. I was using my hammer drill to make the holes for the sleeve anchors to go in to the cinder blocks. The Chow was laying on the floor to the left of me in the storage room doorway, that is not visible in the picture that I took that day. 

I stopped drilling for a bit as I needed to change my dull masonry bit. Suddenly right above my head and towards the water heater, it sounded like someone dropped one foot down on the floor hard, like a stomp of the foot to kill a big spider. WTH ? 

I ran up the stairs to check and see if anything had fallen from the wall. Nothing. I opened the kitchen side entry door and looked for my wife's car in the drive as sometimes she would get to leave work early if she got caught up.  While thinking maybe she had entered the kitchen and set one foot down hard, THEN remembered she left something in her car and instead turned to go back out to the driveway to get it.  

No car, no wife in sight. Just me and the Chow was in the house.  I cannot just be making this sht up people.

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## SharetheHedge

> Another un-explainable SN event that happened to me. .
> 
> Back in the early 90's I got married and was doing a lot of work on our first "starter" home. My wife went to work at the hospital on second shift, so while she was gone I would try to get some of my work done and she would not have to endure the noise or mess. On the day of this SN event, my wife was at work and it was just me and our Chow dog in the house. 
> 
> I was in a storage room that was located in the basement, right under the kitchen. I was installing some wood 2" x2" 's strips on the cinder block wall, the shelf boards would lay on. I was using my hammer drill to make the holes for the sleeve anchors to go in to the cinder blocks. The Chow was laying on the floor to the left of me in the storage room doorway, that is not visible in the picture that I took that day. 
> 
> I stopped drilling for a bit as I needed to change my dull masonry bit. Suddenly right above my head and towards the water heater, it sounded like someone dropped one foot down on the floor hard, like a stomp of the foot to kill a big spider. WTH ? 
> 
> I ran up the stairs to check and see if anything had fallen from the wall. Nothing. I opened the kitchen side entry door and looked for my wife's car in the drive as sometimes she would get to leave work early if she got caught up.  While thinking maybe she had entered the kitchen and set one foot down hard, THEN remembered she left something in her car and instead turned to go back out to the driveway to get it.  
> ...




Sounds like you're reaching now, though? An unexplained NOISE?

If that qualifies as supernatural it would take all the air out of the significance of the term, "supernatural", wouldn't it?  :Dontknow:

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## gregonejeep

> Sounds like you're reaching now, though? An unexplained NOISE?
> 
> If that qualifies as supernatural it would take all the air out of the significance of the term, "supernatural", wouldn't it?



Hmm, nope not so fast SH.  Do you live in a home where if you are in the basement looking up, is the underside of the floor above open and un-insulated like ours was in the pic I posted ?   If you do, go have someone just tap with their knuckles on the floor above you and listen. 

Then, have them stomp their foot down hard in the same place.  Let me know if the "stomp" is something one would hear when there is NO one in the room above, and nothing has fallen to the floor that would make the same noise. In the meantime, I will post a two more "events" we had in this same home.

----------


## gregonejeep

Bear with me here SH, as I am getting to why the "stomp" and two other events that later happened in our first home, were IMO- SN events....

Not too many months after the "stomp" event, I did my next project on this same home that my wife and I moved in to as newlyweds. When they built the 1960 year stairs from the upper level down to the basement, the carpenter because of the lack of the needed headroom needed, messed them up. He built the steps to the basement literally code illegal, to todays building code standards. 

With a rise of over 8 inches on each step and a run of just 9 inches, as one went up or down the steps they found themselves leaning back or forward as to not fall, while going up or down them. 
And the reason the carpenter did not have the needed head room, was they built a pantry closet right over the steps in the kitchen. (see my non--scale sketch attached) So I removed all the stairs, sloped the closet floor and got the required headroom I needed. Then, I cut and installed all new stair carriages and treads. 

As I was going in and out of the closet MANY times to cut out the old floor and install the sloped one, EVERY time I opened the closet door I would close it gently and let the latch engage on the door knob set. I did this to try to keep the mess I was making inside the closet, from going all over the house we were living in.

 I did not ever slam the closet door quickly, so as to not "blow" the dust on the pantry closet floor back out in to the kitchen. I had even shut off the furnace to be sure it would not run and circulate the dust. No windows were open in the house, as it was chilly outside. And as usual, the Missus was at work. 

When I finally finished the slope floor in the closet, I cleaned the final mess up in the closet. I backed out of the closet for the final time and then stood up. I grabbed the closet door knob and started pulling the closet door inward to close it gently, for probably the 15 th time that day. 

But this time I did not get to close the door gently. Because just as I got the door within about two feet of closing "something" that I could not see pushed against the door so hard, that it literally pulled the door knob from my hand and the door slammed shut HARD.    Two more related posts and am done, with our first homes SN events.

----------


## gregonejeep

In this same home not long after I finished installing the new steps to the basement, one night my wife and I were sitting in the living room watching TV. 

Suddenly, our Chow that would always lie at my feet or my wife's, suddenly stood up and emitted a low growl and her "hackles" stood up on her neck. She was staring through the doorway that connected to the main hall. The hall ceiling light was not turned on at the time. 

And the only light source in the hall, was one of those small C7 clear bulb"night lights" that we had plugged in to the hall outlet. 

This all happened really fast, but just as I looked to see what the Chow was growling about, "something" went passed the  hall night light and cast a shadow on the wall. It looked to me like a "dusty" form of a person, moving VERY quickly down the hall towards the bedrooms. 

Once again, I did not lead my wife with my statement of what I had just witnessed, as I wanted to hear what SHE had just witnessed first.  So when I asked her what she thought the dog was growling about, she replied to me, " I don't really know but it  looked to me like a broken up shadow of a medium height man on the wall and it just flashed by really quick".

I had already told my wife about the stomp. And the pantry closet door being rammed from my hand and slammed shut. Now the shadow figure.  Neither one of us wanted to talk about these events, as to do so we both knew that we would have to face the fact that our first home had "something or someone" in it, that was damn pissed off about me tearing it up and rebuilding it.

So the following year we did not speak of these "events" and just worked hard to finish up our improvement projects inside and out.  We had our yards landscaped beautifully, big hot tub on a big deck, rock gardens, perennial flower beds, a real eye catcher. And when we finally made the decision to sell it, our real estate agent brought us 3 offers within 6 days and the people were sitting out in front of our house in their cars ...waiting to bring us their offers one at a time. 

And we accepted the nice young couples offer, of MORE than our asking price. And as we signed all the paper's for them to buy it, the husband said to me, " Our agent told us you are a licensed electrician. And when we were shown this house, I could see you have done a lot of electrical upgrades that were really nice on it. I work as a fireman for the city and so does my Dad. And on our straight run of days off, he and I have our own small electrical business we work on the "side".  We work wiring room additions, smaller houses, garages, and doing electrical projects in peoples houses"   

I thanked him for the compliment and then gave him my cell phone number and told him to just give me a call, if he had any problems with their new home. And that I would be glad to help him with any questions, that he may have about our ex-home. 

They moved in 30 days later just as we moved in to our second home we picked out. Now SH, the next post is the end of my "Home Improvement" SN events. But I have had more SN events not related to home projects, if you REALLY want to read them.  :Smile:

----------


## gregonejeep

About a month after we moved in to our second home, my cell phone rings one evening and I answer it. It is the nice fireman that bought our first home. We exchange greetings and then he says, " I am sorry to call and bother you, but I have a question for you. .. and then there is this long uncomfortable silence on our phones. So I speak up and said, " You are not bothering me J----, how can I help you" ??

He stumbles with his first words, stopped and paused again... then asked me this question. " Oh yeah, I am installing a new paddle fan in our bedroom and I just called to see....pause... uh, yeah, Does the blue wire on the fan connection box operate the lights on the fan" ???  I replied yes and he thanked me and hung up quickly. 


If anyone has ever spoken to someone on the phone and they felt the person on the other end of the phone, had a question they wanted to ask, but just could not do it ??  THIS was one of those calls.  The End.

----------


## gregonejeep

Many years ago I got a electrical service call request to check on a lighting issue that was in a large old house, that had been converted to office spaces. The lady on the phone said that I needed to talk to their security officer, as he was the one reporting the issue. And that the best time to find him on the job was at 8:45 am, the time that he opened up the building. 

So I drove to the place around 8:50 am and I walked in and asked the front desk person just sitting down, to call the security person for me. The security guy came in the room in short time and he said, " Just follow me and I will show the room where I think we have a problem with the lights".

So we go up to the second floor of the old house and go down a long hall, where there is a door at the end of it. We walk in to the room which was being used for file storage mostly. On the ceiling was about 6- 4 ft. long, surface mounted two tube F40CW, fluorescent light fixtures.

The security guy tells me... " Every night at 8:00 PM I tour this building to be sure its vacant and turn all the lights off in every room. For almost a month now when I turn this room's lights off, when I open back up the following morning, I find the lights back on. And this building has a fully monitored proprietary security system that I turn on when I lock up and leave at night.

 I keep checking the systems activity log just to be sure someone is not coming back in after I leave, and using the room and leaving the lights on. And no one has been doing so. I think maybe it has a bad light switch maybe, because I am being sure that I flip it down fully every night. And the lights go off and then I leave the building secure".   

I tell the guy I would check it out and he leaves me to go work on it. It had a older, worn looking single pole switch located right by the door. I  go out to my van and get a new commercial grade 20 amp rated single pole toggle switch like in the pic attached to replace it.

 I remove the old switch and with the new switch hanging out, I do an amperage check with all the room lights turned on. Just to be sure the lighting load is not overloading the switch. All is good at just around 8 amps of load. So I install the switch in its box and then operate it on / off about 5 times and it works as it should. 

So I speak with the security guy when I get ready to leave and I told him what work that I did. I gave him my cell phone number just so he could call me, if he had any more problems. About a week goes by and I get a call from the security guy.

 He tells me, " I just thought I would let you know about the lights that you worked on. As I do my rounds every night I am taking special care to be sure that I have the new switch that you installed to be sure that its toggle handle is flipped down solid. And the lights go off just fine and I leave. But STILL when I open up the building in the morning now, the lights are back on.

Last night I tried something I have not been doing. I turned the lights off in the room and then I pulled the door shut. I stood about 3 feet back from the closed door and just stood their listening and looking at the about one inch tall opening under the door. Suddenly after about two minutes went by, I hear your new switch make its "click" sound. And instantly I saw the bright lighting in the room, light up the open space under the door.

So I just called to let you know that I will not be reporting the lighting problem again to the front desk. Because I am NOT going back in to that room again, no matter whether the lights are left on or off ".

----------


## gregonejeep

Whenever someone can give me an answer to at least 3 or 4 of my posts that makes more sense, than the conclusion(s) I have drawn. I will then stop posting my experiences of what I believe were my "supernatural" (SN) events, as per my Webster Dictionary definition in my OP.(Or, when Trinity gets tired of them and swipes them off of this forum, which ever comes first )   

In 2013 about three weeks had passed since by brother's Ted (fake name) funeral had taken place and I was in the basement Den of our previous home on the computer. (in the pic) The computer desk sat against the wall, so I had my back to the remaining part of the Den. I love old trucks and cars so one of my pastimes, is finding them on the internet. 

I had on the computer monitor screen, a full sized picture of a 1956 Ford Crown Victoria that had been fully restored. Suddenly from behind me a relatively loud and long one note, "wolf" whistle sounded. The hair raised up on my neck as I swung my desk chair around, as I thought someone had gotten in through the Den exterior door, and was in the room with me.  Not good.  As the only people in our home at that moment was me and my wife. And she was in the top level of our tri-level home in her sewing room, sewing. 

But I saw no one in the room with me. I checked the Den's one exterior door and its dead bolt latch was still set. WTH ???
 I go upstairs  and ask my wife had she come down to the stairs and whistled at me, just to get my attention.

 She replied, "What ? I cannot even whistle and I would say something if I wanted your attention. Besides, I have been in this sewing room for the last hour"..

I go back down to the Den and start looking for a source of a whistle noise. The furnace was running at that time, so I listened to each of the ceiling heat registers, to see if the discharge air was possibly making any "whistle" noises through the register grill slots. Nope.

I go to the wood burning fireplace that we had not used for a while, and I checked to see if I had left the flu damper barely cracked open leaving a "slot" in it. While thinking that, possibly the room air could be "up drafting" through the damper and could be the source of the "whistle" I heard. Nope, the damper to my surprise I had left it wide open since burning wood in it the last time.

So once again, I had to just walk away and give myself a few days to try to make sense of what happened. Because whistles just do not happen in rooms, without a source of making it. And as I was sitting in traffic 4 days later, a sharp 32 Ford Roadster pulled up one lane over from me and stopped for the light. And then it hit me where I recognized that "whistle" I heard in the Den. 

My brother Ted also loved old cars and trucks like that I did. And whenever he saw one driving close by or as he walked up to it, he would let out this long, one note "wolf" whistle in admiration.  And also, when he first got out of high school in 1968, he bought a really sharp 56 Ford Crown Vic, with the chrome bar across the roof side to side. Black and white exterior paint, with all white interior.

----------


## Jen

I believe that the "supernatural" exists and I have taken a side, a stand ......

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gregonejeep (05-09-2020)

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## Kris P Bacon

Once, long ago a friend and I ate mushrooms. We were sitting in lawn chairs when a "voice" within me said "go, ahead talk to your friend, you can do it, give it a try". So I said (within my own mind) "OMG I can hear what you are thinking" as we both turned to look at each other in amazement. This went on for several hours a conversation like any other you might have except it was all non verbal. Now I know many would write it off on account of the shrooms but I know what happened and it was no hallucination. I dont think it was the drugs but the drugs allowed us to access a part of our brains that we normally dont. And FTR I had done shrooms hundreds of other times and that never happened.

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Daily Bread (05-09-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> Once, long ago a friend and I ate mushrooms. We were sitting in lawn chairs when a "voice" within me said "go, ahead talk to your friend, you can do it, give it a try". So I said (within my own mind) "OMG I can hear what you are thinking" as we both turned to look at each other in amazement. This went on for several hours a conversation like any other you might have except it was all non verbal. Now I know many would write it off on account of the shrooms but I know what happened and it was no hallucination. I dont think it was the drugs but the drugs allowed us to access a part of our brains that we normally dont. And FTR I had done shrooms hundreds of other times and that never happened.


Damn KB, thanks for just shitting on my thread here with your mushroom induced experience and setting my thread here back to "O" in the readers eyes. Never mind that I have spent a LOT of my time posting on this thread with my REAL life SN experiences. And to boot, I have used up a hell of a lot of the site owners new server bandwidth, doing so. 

All while I am trying to show the members here that I am not a illegal drug induced, delusional person or a mental patient out on good behavior. But that I am a normal person, that has had real SN experiences and I am willing to lay my balls out and have them stepped here by the SN skeptics. All while I try to prove from my OWN real experiences, why I believe the realm of the supernatural, DOES exist.  

So fuk it, now everyone can just go ahead and post their shit stories to this thread, and I'll just drop out of it.  :Geez:

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## Kris P Bacon

> Damn KB, thanks for just shitting on my thread here with your mushroom induced experience and setting my thread here back to "O" in the readers eyes. Never mind that I have spent a LOT of my time posting on this thread with my REAL life SN experiences. And to boot, I have used up a hell of a lot of the site owners new server bandwidth, doing so. 
> 
> All while I am trying to show the members here that I am not a illegal drug induced, delusional person or a mental patient out on good behavior. But that I am a normal person, that has had real SN experiences and I am willing to lay my balls out and have them stepped here by the SN skeptics. All while I try to prove from my OWN real experiences, why I believe the realm of the supernatural, DOES exist.  
> 
> So fuk it, now everyone can just go ahead and post their shit stories to this thread, and I'll just drop out of it.


Well bugger right off then, you asked and I offered my experience, I wont post a damn thing in your threads then. Keep a closed mind. Bye. Telepathy is a well documented field of the SN.

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Daily Bread (05-09-2020),OldSchool (05-09-2020)

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## OldSchool



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Kris P Bacon (05-10-2020)

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## Daily Bread

Excellent post @Kris P Bacon :Thumbsup20:  . Let's hear more !

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Kris P Bacon (05-10-2020),OldSchool (05-09-2020)

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## OldSchool

Hey!

I'm supposed to be the shit stirrer.  :Angry20: 

 :Lolk:

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Daily Bread (05-09-2020)

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## Daily Bread

I'm only your backup lol.

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OldSchool (05-09-2020)

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## OldSchool

I'm just an average Joe..... I mean jokester. Well, maybe not.... average.  :Dontknow: 

Anyway, I hope thread recovers..... I think @gregonejeep is alright. I mean he seems sensible and has balls enough to to tell off Krispy, which was a bad judgement call, but...... there's hope for him.  :Wink:

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Kris P Bacon (05-10-2020)

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## Kris P Bacon

> Excellent post @Kris P Bacon . Let's hear more !


Fuck no. My experiences dont fit Greg's parameters. If I do, i'll post my own damn thread.

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Daily Bread (05-10-2020)

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## Physics Hunter

> Any Interest in spiritism is reflected in such activities as astrology, witchcraft, and the occult. In many parts of the world, people try to communicate with wicked spirits with the help of a psychic or a witch doctor. Many use divination to try to find out about the future. They look at the stars, search for omens, use a crystal ball, read the palm of a persons hand, or have their own palm read.
> 
> Books, magazines, and movies present spiritism as harmless or intriguing. Some communication experts suggest that the way TV programs and movies portray the paranormal has strongly influenced what people believe. 
> 
> *What does the Bible say...*
> 
> For example, Deuteronomy 18:10-13 states:  "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God."



Exactly, if a person is not seeking the Lord, they are seeking evil.  Evil on a level they cannot possibly comprehend.
God protect us.

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S-N-A-F-U (05-10-2020)

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## Physics Hunter

> Whenever someone can give me an answer to at least 3 or 4 of my posts that makes more sense, than the conclusion(s) I have drawn. I will then stop posting my experiences of what I believe were my "supernatural" (SN) events, as per my Webster Dictionary definition in my OP.(Or, when Trinity gets tired of them and swipes them off of this forum, which ever comes first )   
> 
> In 2013 about three weeks had passed since by brother's Ted (fake name) funeral had taken place and I was in the basement Den of our previous home on the computer. (in the pic) The computer desk sat against the wall, so I had my back to the remaining part of the Den. I love old trucks and cars so one of my pastimes, is finding them on the internet. 
> 
> I had on the computer monitor screen, a full sized picture of a 1956 Ford Crown Victoria that had been fully restored. Suddenly from behind me a relatively loud and long one note, "wolf" whistle sounded. The hair raised up on my neck as I swung my desk chair around, as I thought someone had gotten in through the Den exterior door, and was in the room with me.  Not good.  As the only people in our home at that moment was me and my wife. And she was in the top level of our tri-level home in her sewing room, sewing. 
> 
> But I saw no one in the room with me. I checked the Den's one exterior door and its dead bolt latch was still set. WTH ???
>  I go upstairs  and ask my wife had she come down to the stairs and whistled at me, just to get my attention.
> 
> ...


From what I have read, there is a lot there and I have not done it thorough justice, you have been called by the Lord.  I am not his messenger, or minister, just a redeemed man.  Being redeemed does not make me better, it probably points to me being worse in my natural state.  I am a bold man by nature, but am humbled and simply blessed that God called me to know the grace of salvation that Jesus paid for.

Looking for the supernatural outside of that is simply looking for trouble.

Turn to God, he will bless you.  I don't need to see it, hear it, or feel it.  I know it with confidence.

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gregonejeep (05-10-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> Well bugger right off then, you asked and I offered my experience, I wont post a damn thing in your threads then. Keep a closed mind. Bye. Telepathy is a well documented field of the SN.





> Excellent post @Kris P Bacon . Let's hear more !





> Hey!
> 
> I'm supposed to be the shit stirrer.





> I'm only your backup lol.





> I'm just an average Joe..... I mean jokester. Well, maybe not.... average. 
> 
> Anyway, I hope thread recovers..... I think @gregonejeep is alright. I mean he seems sensible and has balls enough to to tell off Krispy, which was a bad judgement call, but...... there's hope for him.





> Fuck no. My experiences dont fit Greg's parameters. If I do, i'll post my own damn thread.



I am not going back on my word by posting to this thread again, with any more of my SN experience(s). I came back just to address the member's replies above that I listed. I know KB is a favorite poster on TPF and I have always enjoyed his postings. 

And I still stand by my discontent with his "mushroom" reply. Who and the hell can give anyone any respect to a post to a "supernatural" thread, when the poster admits to have been eating mind altering plants in his SN experience post ?   WTH ??

But rather than you guys DB and OS leaving it between KB and I, you two did like so many do today, just like on the videos posted on TPF. (like the bikini clad gals fight video)  Where the onlookers pick sides and then gang up on the one person, they want to see lose. 

And to Old School, so you think I made a bad judgment call " telling off" KB and that I "seem" sensible ?  LOL.... you and DB made it quite clear how sensible the two of you are. When you jumped in on this thread while not to contribute any SN experiences, but only to stir shit while standing up for your buddy.  

I know what I post does not matter now to KB, but I say this about KB 

 I have a lot of respect for him for the way he turned his life around, and how he helps people around him without wanting any rewards. And also his great mechanical skills. And he has a great sense of humor, while not having to take "shots" at people while trying to be funny.  More so than I can say for a lot of posters on TPF.

Now, I am done with this thread and everyone is welcome to keep on blowing it up. Then, maybe Trinity will see it and put it out of its misery as it needs to be, and just vaporize it.

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Daily Bread (05-10-2020),Kris P Bacon (05-10-2020)

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## Daily Bread

I'm a very sensitive type person and that hurt ...................
Ok ,I'm better now and I'm going to buy Greg a beer ,if I ever meet him .

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## Kris P Bacon

@gregonejeep Did you know that pscilocybin differs from your endogenous serotonin by one molecule? And that DMT sometimes called the "spirit molecule" is also a schedule one controlled substance (like pscilocybin) It also exist in nature in many plants and animals and here's the kicker...it's totally endogenous as it's also produced by the pineal gland right there in the center of your brain! Some in the scientific field theorize it is responsible for near death and OBE's.

I wont even get into the long history of the use of psychedelics that occur in nature and their Shamanic use, thru the ages, around the world. I suggest instead of having such a judgmental and closed mind, you do some research on the topic. Sorry my experiences dont fit what you were looking for. You aint gotta get in a damn huff over it. Believe me, if I want to post anymore of my experiences I REMOTELY think you might dissaprove of, it certainly WONT be in your thread. Have a nice day.

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## gregonejeep

> @gregonejeep Did you know that pscilocybin differs from your endogenous serotonin by one molecule? And that DMT sometimes called the "spirit molecule" is also a schedule one controlled substance (like pscilocybin) It also exist in nature in many plants and animals and here's the kicker...it's totally endogenous as it's also produced by the pineal gland right there in the center of your brain! Some in the scientific field theorize it is responsible for near death and OBE's.
> 
> I wont even get into the long history of the use of psychedelics that occur in nature and their Shamanic use, thru the ages, around the world. I suggest instead of having such a judgmental and closed mind, you do some research on the topic. Sorry my experiences dont fit what you were looking for. You aint gotta get in a damn huff over it. Believe me, if I want to post anymore of my experiences I REMOTELY think you might dissaprove of, it certainly WONT be in your thread. Have a nice day.



Apparently you wanted me to come back here just to have another round of pissing contests. Or you would not have put my name after @ which notified me that my name is being mentioned in someone's post.  Well, I came back and now I am duly impressed as I see now, that you are a licensed Neuropharmacologist. 

But, please save your time giving me your medical lessons though. As I have NO reason whatsoever to read a damn thing about what mushrooms, or DMT's or any of that shit does, that alters one's brain sense of reality. Because the closest thing I have used or will EVER use that will alter my mind from reality, is beer or whiskey. 

Since you think that I am the one here, being judgmental and closed minded for my belief about mind altering substances. Then, I am going to do us both a favor now and you would do well to do the same. Use your ignore feature.

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## Kris P Bacon

> Apparently you wanted me to come back here just to have another round of pissing contests. Or you would not have put my name after @ which notified me that my name is being mentioned in someone's post.  Well, I came back and now I am duly impressed as I see now, that you are a licensed Neuropharmacologist. 
> 
> But, please save your time giving me your medical lessons though. As I have NO reason whatsoever to read a damn thing about what mushrooms, or DMT's or any of that shit does, that alters one's brain sense of reality. Because the closest thing I have used or will EVER use that will alter my mind from reality, is beer or whiskey. 
> 
> Since you think that I am the one here, being judgmental and closed minded for my belief about mind altering substances. Then, I am going to do us both a favor now and you would do well to do the same. Use your ignore feature.


I suggest you follow your own advice @gregonejeep. You asked for people to post their own experiences, did you not? So dont condescendingly look and talk down your self righteous nose, at me from that towering equine. Just drink your alcohol and let that make you think, you are better than me. And dont ask the questions if you dont want the answers.

----------


## gregonejeep

On edit, I was rushed when I posted to this thread yesterday. So I not did write in it after my beer and whiskey drinking admission, the rest of my story about my feelings about mind altering substances. The last time I drank enough whiskey to be "drunk" was 46 years ago, when I was 22 years old. When that night after leaving a bar, I drove home drunk and realized the next morning, that I could have run over someone and ended up in prison.

And I still recall back then, how I hated the way I felt sick the next day after I had drank too much at a party. My days of drinking to where my mind was "altered" started at age 21 and ended when I was 22 years old. And for 28 years now, my wife and I may have some wine with our occasional home delivered pizza, and that is all.

 And as to my "exchanges" with KB and as I think about it them now. ...I have to remind myself that when reading posts on the internet, it is not the same as speaking to someone in person. So the "message" we get from people's posts can sometimes be "interpreted" different or just flat out wrong. Knowing this, I probably over reacted to KB's mushroom post.

I have enough health problems myself to deal with, along with my wife's COPD as I watch her get weaker and weaker each day. I never thought we would spend our last years living in this CV19 mess, that is going on now. So I sure do not need to be on the internet daily, while reading posts about how bad it is going to get here in the USA. It all just gets too overwhelming for me at times, and in shows up in my posts too often I see. So I had best sign off for a while.

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## Kris P Bacon

No need to sign off, no hard feelings. It takes all kinds, to make the world rotate. I aint mad atchya.

We all walk our own path but I believe we all seek the same destination. I'm just dissapointed you basically shut me down before I could share, more of my SP experiences.

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gregonejeep (05-14-2020)

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## Kris P Bacon

Feed your head!

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gregonejeep (05-14-2020),Kodiak (05-14-2020)

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## gregonejeep

You are a fine fellar in my book KB. I just needed to get the "burr outa my fur" and walk away for a bit. No excuses to be made for me. Now for two months now, while watching the "news" daily and hearing from my actual family members what they are experiencing ? It is HARD for some of us out here, to remain to be the same person we were temperament wise, pre CV19. This sht is not slowing down... 

Like yesterday when my wife went to Krogers to get some groceries. She was also going to mail our bill payments while using the big blue USPS box, that sits out in front of their store. She grabbed the handle of the lid of the big drop mailbox and pulled down on it, to drop our mail down in to it. 

It would only open about one inch though. She pulled again and still the same result, so she peeked down inside the big pickup mailbox and what she saw took her breath.  Something she had NEVER seen before in her 60 years of mailing mail.  The mailbox was FULL to even over the back of the security door/lid..with mail that had not been picked up. A blue metal box that is about 24 " square box by about 48" tall = lot of people not getting their bills paid on time probably. 

And if one will THINK about it, ALL businesses or even musicians/bands where their success depends on people gathering in numbers larger than 10-15, are absolutely screwed this year and maybe beyond?  Even some of the the high school "leaders" in my state are now with their cowardly ass emails, (no phone calls or even a warning) just instantly terminating their high school sports coaches contracts. 

The only sweet spot is that the HollyWeird crowd and their liberal BS, yep, they are going to get HARD also. Nobody wants to see their actor at the big screen or on TV with a mask on and not even getting CLOSE enough to screw each other. Just the sht we cannot get off of our TV's now. But enuff of the gloom, as that is another many page thread in itself. 

Back OT now. ...

What I SHOULD have posted to your mushroom reply days ago rather than being so pissy,  was this...

"KB, I truly believe that you and your friend had your " telepathic" experience, although it does read to me like that it could have been brought on, from the mushroom's being eaten. To me, if a person has a SN experience with an "altered" state of mind and posts about it here, this IMO will undermine the *credibility* of that experience to the readers. 

I am not saying the person that is testifying of the experience, *did not* have their SN experience. I am just saying that if the person(s) involved were using any type of drink, or mind altering substances when they had their "SN" experience, their mind was taken from it's "normal state" when they had their experience. 
And to be honest KB, anyone that posts about their supernatural experiences on a internet discussion board are REALLY, setting themselves up to be accused of being "mentally" out of time... about 4 degrees TDC anyway.  
So if we are good now, continue on with posting to this thread at will, and I will do the same while using better judgment in temperament. Now, I am getting out of this prison called home since its almost 75 degreed here now and go trim our creeks bushes back. Cheers...

----------

Kris P Bacon (05-14-2020)

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## Kodiak

> Feed your head!



Dang Krispy, I'm surprised you knew that song.  It's from around 15-20 years before you were born!

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Kris P Bacon (05-14-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> Whenever someone can give me an answer to at least 3 or 4 of my posts that makes more sense, than the conclusion(s) I have drawn. I will then stop posting my experiences of what I believe were my "supernatural" (SN) events, as per my Webster Dictionary definition in my OP.(Or, when Trinity gets tired of them and swipes them off of this forum, which ever comes first )   
> 
> In 2013 about three weeks had passed since by brother's Ted (fake name) funeral had taken place and I was in the basement Den of our previous home on the computer. (in the pic) The computer desk sat against the wall, so I had my back to the remaining part of the Den. I love old trucks and cars so one of my pastimes, is finding them on the internet. 
> 
> I had on the computer monitor screen, a full sized picture of a 1956 Ford Crown Victoria that had been fully restored. Suddenly from behind me a relatively loud and long one note, "wolf" whistle sounded. The hair raised up on my neck as I swung my desk chair around, as I thought someone had gotten in through the Den exterior door, and was in the room with me.  Not good.  As the only people in our home at that moment was me and my wife. And she was in the top level of our tri-level home in her sewing room, sewing. 
> 
> But I saw no one in the room with me. I checked the Den's one exterior door and its dead bolt latch was still set. WTH ???
>  I go upstairs  and ask my wife had she come down to the stairs and whistled at me, just to get my attention.
> 
> ...


About 2 months before my brother Ted passed away, I bought a new Samsung flip phone that I used for work and my personal use that had Verizon service. When I went to bed at night I would lay my phone on the dresser but before I did so, I would open it and check the battery charge rate. I had to leave it on all night as I was "on call" at work 24/7/365 so I had to be diligent in keeping my phone charged up and ready.  

It did not take long to figure out how often I had to charge it, which was about every 3 or 4 days. After reading somewhere that it is harder on cell phone batteries to leave their fully charged battery on the charger, I just plugged my phones charger cord in to it at night, when it was showing 50% or less battery charge. I had been doing this same phone battery charge routine for 2 months on my new phone, when something happened. 

It started on the 3 night after I had heard the "wolf" whistle in the Den. Just as I had been doing for two months, I removed my new phone from my pocket and laid it on the dresser, as I went to get my shower before bedtime. I flipped it open and it showed around a 95% charge still on the battery, as that day I had barely used it. I did not plug it in to the charger that night. 

I got up the next morning and while on my drive to work, my phone beeps at me. I pull it out of my shirt pocket and I see the "low" battery indicator is on, and the battery is almost dead. WTH ? ? I then plug my truck's phone charger cord in to it to charge it back up, at least enough to get me through my work day. That evening when I get off work, I plug the phone in again to charge while I am driving home. 

When I get home the phone is fully charged and when I went to bed, I did not plug it in to the charger. When I get up the following morning to go to work and while knowing I have a battery issue, I flip my phone open to check its charge status. It is in its *"battery too low"* to operate mode again. So during my lunchtime at work, I take my phone to the Verizon store where I bought it, to have them look at it for me. The tech checked it out and told me that he could not find anything wrong with the battery or its charging circuit. 






For 3 more days the same routine happened to my phone. I would go to bed with it charged 75% + and wake up to find it's battery fully discharged.  Finally on the 4 th day, I woke up to find a NOT fully discharged phone. And then for the following days, weeks, months and now 7 years later ? The battery in my flip phone has never ONCE went dead overnight again, while showing 75% + charge on it.

Well... now the "Twilight Zone" show comes in play maybe. I went on the Interwebs and did a search for mysterious dead battery stories as NONE of the above, made ANY sense to me at ALL. And I cannot PROVE what I found in my search, but what I found ran parallel with the "wolf whistle".   As I read that when " spirits" are in close proximity of small batteries like cell phones, they can "suck" the energy from the battery.  Hmmm. 


I just know that I have had to date, 3 brothers and 4 sisters pass away.  And that through all of those years of my siblings deaths that only ONE time, did I have a SN "event" within a month of any one of my sibling's passing.  And this event happened after my only sibling(Ted) that died who was the only Atheist in my family, but the one that beat me up as a kid whenever he wanted.

Now over the years after reading books about the "afterlife" and NDE's, etc. I have come to the belief that darkened souls or "spirits" I call them, that are released from the body after it dies, may stay around their familiar earth places after their death a while. And some of them may stay a LOT longer as I believe the one in our first home did, until they finally move onward in to their new "afterlife". 

The above is why I do not watch paranormal shows, or go to "haunted" places to tour like the old Waverly TB Hospital in Louisville, KY where they take people ( used to at least ? ) on its "haunted" tours.  Because if one opens up their minds to these troubled "spirits" or they get heavily in to the world of card readers, or mediums that "speak" with the dead....they are opening up themselves "spiritually" to where darkened spirits, may come in to their lives. A bad, bad, thing to happen IMO. 



P.S. I used the flip phone in my post above for two years and then I retired from work. And when I retired, I called Verizon and had it removed from their service. But today, I still put this same old phone on a charger about once a month to keep it charged up. Just because I am too stubborn to take the time to sit down, and write down all my old contact phone numbers it has in it that I want saved. Some day soon I will do so though, as it cannot last forever.  

The two pics are of the old cell phone that I had during the above  "events". And it still has the SAME battery in it that it did, when I had the 3 mysterious consecutive nights of it's battery going dead... over night.

----------


## East of the Beast

@gregonejeep.....you know you can take your phones to the local cell phone store and they can transfer those electronically. At least you could use to be able to do that.....it may just a matter of swapping out he sim cards,depending on how old your work phone is.

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gregonejeep (05-15-2020)

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## UKSmartypants

> Feed your head!


Jefferson Airplane 
became Jefferson Starship

became  KBC Band

Woodstock
Isle of Wight
and the Summer of Love

Cant get more 60's than this.

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Kris P Bacon (05-15-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> Jefferson Airplane 
> became Jefferson Starship
> 
> became  KBC Band
> 
> Woodstock
> Isle of Wight
> and the Summer of Love
> 
> Cant get more 60's than this.


Cool... you will find a video on one your science threads now, that was a great hit.

----------


## gregonejeep

> Any Interest in spiritism is reflected in such activities as astrology, witchcraft, and the occult. In many parts of the world, people try to communicate with wicked spirits with the help of a psychic or a witch doctor. Many use divination to try to find out about the future. They look at the stars, search for omens, use a crystal ball, read the palm of a persons hand, or have their own palm read.
> 
> Books, magazines, and movies present spiritism as harmless or intriguing. Some communication experts suggest that the way TV programs and movies portray the paranormal has strongly influenced what people believe. 
> 
> *What does the Bible say...*
> 
> For example, Deuteronomy 18:10-13 states:  "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God."


I have pulled up Snafu's post here to pull out the words I noted in red. My KJV Bible with the same chapter and verses state the following about when Moses was giving instructions about any of the Levites coming out of Israel. ...

10.  There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 

11. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


13. Thou shalt be perfect with thy Lord thou God.

After reading both my KJV Bible verses and snafu's Bible verses from Deut: 18:10-13, both of them recognize the existence of "spirits". So just what is one to believe ?  The Bible states they exist, but most Christians do not like to even touch on the subject of "spirits".  I wonder why, when even our internet dictionary lists the word "spirit". 

Here is Merriam's - Webster/definition of a "*spirit*".

1. An animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms. 

2.A supernatural being or essence such as :

a. Holy Spirit

b. soul

c. an often malevolent being that is bodiless, but can become visible

The W/M's Dictionary definition of a *soul.*..

1. the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life

2 a. the* spiritual principal* embodied in human beings


From what I am reading above, as my only source for word definitions is my large hard bound Merriam- Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, is that one's *soul* can also be called their *spirit*. 

And here is where the fly dives in to the ointment for me at least. The people that practice the Christian faith and as the Holy Bible says, ones "soul" will be raised up on the Day of Judgement and it will be given a new body.  And some Scriptures read of even a second resurrection ? 


It is all too confusing for me and I can readily see why that Christian pastors "graze" over what happens to ones soul upon their death, and really try to avoid the topic altogether.  Or they just preach, " All you have to do is THIS, and you will be saved "  !  

I know they are right about Christ being the way to ones salvation, because I am a believer in Him.  But it is the way the Bible and the churches teach us about our soul/spirit, that leaves me asking a LOT more questions. Because there are so many "holes' in what we are taught about our soul/spirit, their teachings MAKE me ask more questions.

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> I have pulled up Snafu's post here to pull out the words I noted in red. My KJV Bible with the same chapter and verses state the following about when Moses was giving instructions about any of the Levites coming out of Israel. ...
> 
> 10.  There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire, or that uses divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 
> 
> 11. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
> 
> 12. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
> 
> 
> ...


Getting beyond the archaic language of the KJV, many translations may use different words coming to the same meaning.   

Jesus said: "make sure of all things, and old fast to what is good."  Keeping in mind that God's word, the Bible is the final arbiter.  One of the most egregious errors that man and his church make, is taking things out of context, or adding things that don't exist, such as the Soul being immortal.  There is no Scripture indicating such a thing, on the contrary...

*"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." ~ Ezek. 18:4 ASV*

Strong's Concordance
*nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion*Original Word: נֶפֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Definition: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion


*Spirit...

*Strong's Concordance
*pneuma: wind, spirit*Original Word: *πνεῦμα, ατος, τό*
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Definition: wind, spirit
Usage: wind, breath, spirit.HELPS Word-studies
*4151* _pneúma_ – properly, _spirit_ (_Spirit_), _wind_, or _breath_. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (_pneúma_) in the NT is "_spirit_" ("_Spirit_"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.
[_Any_ of the above renderings (_spirit-Spirit, wind_, _breath_) of 4151(_pneúma_) is always theoretically possible (_spirit_, _Spirit_, _wind_,_breath_). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the _Holy Spirit_. "_Spirit_" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (_pneúma_).
The Hebrew counterpart (_rûach_) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (_pneúma_), i.e. it likewise can refer to _spirit/Spirit_, _wind_, or_breath_.]

----------


## gregonejeep

> Getting beyond the archaic language of the KJV, many translations may use different words coming to the same meaning.   
> 
> Jesus said: "make sure of all things, and old fast to what is good."  Keeping in mind that God's word, the Bible is the final arbiter.  One of the most egregious errors that man and his church make, is taking things out of context, or adding things that don't exist, such as the Soul being immortal.  There is no Scripture indicating such a thing, on the contrary...
> 
> *"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth,**it shall die.**" ~ Ezek. 18:4 ASV*
> 
> ]


Note: Parts of snafu quote shortened by GOJ so his novel will fit the post box...

Good points snafu, and I totally agree with how sources can "vary" their translations in their word definition(s). I have shortened your reply so we can just narrow it down to the blue text sentences I have copied and placed below. I know my thread is full of long, boring posts with even some distractions of music video's placed in it now, so thanks for getting it back on track.

As I stated in my OP here, I know I have put myself out here on this thread while expecting to be "grilled". All while I am posting my real life experiences that I say were, "supernatural" events.  So let us snafu, make the two blue sentences with the red text the narrative now, as they hit right on target as to what I am posting about on this thread.   

You have posted..One of the most egregious errors that man and his church make, is taking things out of context, or adding things that don't exist, such as the Soul being immortal.
*
"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die**.**" ~ Ezek. 18:4 ASV

*Once again, you have posted Scriptures from the Old Testament with its Old Laws. The New Testament teaches us that through ones "salvation" in Christ,  the soul even if has sinned... does NOT have to die.

 Anyone reading the KJV Bible's NT (or other Bible translations out here) they will learn that if someone is not "saved" by either their Baptism in their church or "born again" in Christ, their soul has NO chance of living on eternally in the Kingdom of God. ( Heaven)


Because basically what you are doing when you answer my questions with your Scripture's being posted, is saying that ALL the different belief's that may not use the Christian Holy Bible as their source of knowledge in this matter...are totally wrong. What you are stating in my viewpoint at least, is that all of the people's non-Christian practicing souls "spirits" (since BC and AC) that left their bodies, will die with their body. 


And all of these people's souls that will die maybe through no choice of their own, as they were raised in a home without the Christian upbringing. Then, in their adult life they did not pursue the Christian faith.  OR maybe they were born and raised in a region on earth where Christianity is NOT prominent, and they were raised with a different belief or faith. (Excluding here of course, any faith or belief that is harmful to the persons mind or body, or one that harm's animals in their ceremonies).

According to your red text, then all of those people's souls that were not "saved" per the Christian beliefs. will die upon their bodies death.  

Somehow I just cannot get my head wrapped around the idea that a Omnipotent, All Loving God that created every soul "spirit" that is incarnated in to the human being born (therefore the term "God's children" that we read ?) would destroy His own Creation, just because that soul was not a "saved" Christian. Is this not complete arrogance, on the Christians behalf or not ? 

Just as most everyone that reads this board has been, I was also born in the USA . Therefore, Christianity has been "offered" to me, since I was 9 years old. There is NO excuse that I can give really, for me NOT to know about Christ as the WAY to the salvation of ones soul/spirit.

 But I still cannot help to think about the soul/spirit as related to a *real human being's life of living/existence*. What sane, loving parent will kill their own child for being rude and undisciplined, without giving them more than one way to redeem themselves ?  

Their child has to be taught, disciplined, taught and disciplined until they get it RIGHT.   <And this makes me recognize that what I have been taught about the concept of ones soul/spirit, its creation and existence, and what becomes of it when it leaves ones body ?  Hmmmm. well...

After a lot of reading on this topic for over 30 years now and with me experiencing my posted SN experiences, I am not totally convinced that some of the key "teaching" points, are not missing on this topic.

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> Note: Parts of snafu quote shortened by GOJ so his novel will fit the post box...
> 
> Good points snafu, and I totally agree with how sources can "vary" their translations in their word definition(s). I have shortened your reply so we can just narrow it down to the blue text sentences I have copied and placed below. I know my thread is full of long, boring posts with even some distractions of music video's placed in it now, so thanks for getting it back on track.
> 
> As I stated in my OP here, I know I have put myself out here on this thread while expecting to be "grilled". All while I am posting my real life experiences that I say were, "supernatural" events.  So let us snafu, make the two blue sentences with the red text the narrative now, as they hit right on target as to what I am posting about on this thread.   
> 
> You have posted..One of the most egregious errors that man and his church make, is taking things out of context, or adding things that don't exist, such as the Soul being immortal.
> *
> "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die**.**" ~ Ezek. 18:4 ASV
> ...


One must not forget, the formulation of God's creation (man and animal) were set in stone in Genesis long before the Covenant (Mosaic law) between God and the early nation of Israel. When Jesus fulfilled that old law Covenant with a new Covenant, he introduced another factor into the equation regarding redemption; and that was *Resurrection* of the Soul, meaning life. 

Let me 'splain further with the following...


*What did the early Christians teach about the soul and immortality?
*
Where did Christendom get its ideas about immortality of the soul?

IN THIS materialistic epoch many persons doubt the idea of immortality of the soul, which they consider to be a basic teaching of the “Christian religion.” Few have any idea that early Christians taught something entirely different about the soul.

You might be surprised to know that modern religious scholars recognize that what the Bible teaches about the soul is far different from what today’s religions teach. In fact, a knowledge of what early Christians really taught about the soul and immortality could have a profound effect on your outlook toward modern religious teaching.

Christendom cites Justin (who died about the year 165 of our Common Era) as one of its martyrs. Rather than saying that all souls are immortal, as do today’s religious leaders, Justin Martyr wrote: *“Some souls perish.”*1 In a later day this idea might have gotten him classed as a “heretic” rather than as a “martyr.”

Tatian, a Christian writer who lived during the last part of the second century, wrote: “O Greeks! The soul is not by itself immortal . . . it dies and dissolves with the body, when it does not know the truth . . . if therefore it rests isolated from the light, it sinks into the matter and dies with the flesh.”2 Tatian, too, would have been in direct contradiction with modern religious teaching.

A recent scholarly Catholic book on Christendom’s early writers shows that other “Church fathers” also taught that many souls die. It says of the soul: “Like Justin and Theophilus of Antioch [of the second century], Arnobus [near the beginning of the fourth century] assumes that it is not immortal by nature, but that it *can be made immortal by the grace of the Christian God.”3*

Indeed, there is a great difference between this idea that the soul is “not immortal by nature” and the modern idea that it is inherently immortal.

*AN ANCIENT GREEK IDEA*

Since the idea that the soul is inherently immortal was not taught by early Christians, from where did it come? Where did Christendom get it?

The evidence indicates that it was from the idol-worshiping ancient Greeks. *The Bible teaches that the soul dies, and that the hope of future life depends on the resurrection.* The Greek idea was different from this. The Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (1956), a leading French-language Bible encyclopedia, says that the ancient Greeks believed that “the soul, created before the body, remains when it is destroyed, continuing to live its own life; because the soul is immortal and the death of the body represents in its existence a real liberating deliverance.”4

A similar view is held by many professed Christians today. They say the soul is immortal, that it continues to live after the body dies, and that death is a great deliverance and liberation, which enables the soul to return to God. This idea existed in Jesus’ day, but he did not teach it—the idol-worshiping Greeks did.

As time passed, the mixture of this Greek idea into professed Christianity increased. The above-mentioned Bible dictionary edited by Westphal says:

“It was particularly when Christianity separated from Judaism that one began to mix closely the ideas of resurrection and immortality. . . . Contemporary Christian thought still suffers the effects of this confusion. Spiritual heirs of both the Greeks and the Jews, we still explain survival sometimes by the Jewish idea of a resurrection, sometimes by the Greek idea of immortality, without even noticing the internal contradictions of our thinking.”5
What, then, is the truth on the matter? Is the Greek idea of immortality true? Is it found in the Bible? What does the Bible teach about the soul and immortality?

*WHAT IS THE “SOUL”?*

The Bible’s teaching about the soul is very clear. It says that when man is animated by the breath of life from God, man becomes “a living soul.” At Genesis 2:7 it is written: “And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground [elements found in the earth] and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” You will note that this passage does not say the soul was created before the body. Neither does it say the soul was “given to” or “put into” man. Nor does it say that the “breath of life” was the soul. Instead, it says that when man came alive, beginning to breathe, “man came to be a living soul.”

The Biblical dictionary edited by Westphal referred to above had to admit this, despite the fact that it is so different from what Christendom teaches. It notes that, according to the Bible, man’s being resides “in the body animated by the breath of the Lord, thus becoming a living soul (compare Gen. 2:7).” It also said that “this soul is inseparable from the body, a fact that explains why sometimes the Old Testament uses the word ‘soul’ for man . . . and sometimes the word ‘flesh’ . . . without the meaning being essentially different.”6

Thus, as used in the Bible, the word “soul” means a living, breathing, sense-possessing creature. This is why the Bible also calls animals “souls,” though it does not use this word for plants.

*CAN IT DIE?*

If, as the above-mentioned Protestant authority recognizes, “the soul is inseparable from the body,” does this mean that when you die your soul dies? Yes. The Bible speaks of souls as dying, and as being struck fatally, killed, destroyed or devoured. And it uses the specific term “dead soul.”*

It may further surprise many persons to know that, exactly opposite to what is taught in modern catechism classes and Sunday schools, Jesus’ own disciples said that the soul dies. In their gospels, epistles and other writings that are now included in the Christian Greek Scriptures of the Bible, the words “soul” and “souls” appear more than fifty times. Yet not one single time is the word “immortal” associated with them. Not even once does the Bible use the common expression “immortal soul.”

*Instead, Jesus’ disciple James showed that a sinning soul dies. He wrote:* *“Know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death.” (Jas. 5:20)* *In the apostle John’s vision of God’s anger* *“every living soul died, yes, the things in the sea.”—Rev. 16:3.*

Further, Jesus and his apostles accepted, believed, and frequently quoted from the earlier books of the Bible. In those inspired books you can read: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezek. 18:4) Indeed, that differs from the ideas of the ancient Greeks—and from the ideas that modern Christendom inherited from them and now teaches in her churches.

Certain religious leaders recognize that the Bible uses the word “soul” in a manner far different from the way today’s churches use it. The Bible dictionary edited by Westphal says that the Hebrews did not imagine the soul “without a body to support it.”7 This Protestant authority adds: “Man is therefore an indivisible whole; without the body the soul remains inconceivable, and without the soul the body is only an inert mass.”7

Sincere Catholics and Protestants alike, who have assumed that the idea that the soul is immortal is supported in the writings of Jesus’ apostles, may be shocked to read what a major new Catholic reference work says about this. The New Catholic Encyclopedia (bearing the imprimatur of the archbishop of Washington; published in 1967 by the Catholic University of America) admits (Vol. 13, page 467): *“The notion of the soul surviving after death is not readily discernible in the Bible.”*

Showing how the Hebrew word that the Bible uses for “soul” differs from Christendom’s modern concept, that encyclopedia says:

“Nepes [or néphesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.21), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140:8 (141). 8], desire (2 Sam 3.21; Prv 23.2). The Soul in the OT [Old Testament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the NT [New Testament] it signifies human life; the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”
The Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible, by A. van den Born, points out that at Job 13:14 (a Hebrew poetical passage in which the same statement is made in different words on two lines parallel with each other) “my nefes” is found parallel with “my flesh.”

It says that when the part of the Bible written before our Common Era “speaks of rescuing or delivering a man’s *nefes* from the nether world (Ps 30,4 [Ps 30:3]; Ps 86:13 86,13; 89,49 [Ps 89:48]; Ps 116:4 116,4; Isa 38:17 Is 38,17; Pr 23:14 Prv 23,14), it means no more than that this man is saved from dying (cfr. Ps 33:19 33,19; 56,14 [Ps 56:13]; Ps 78:50 78,50; Job 33:18, 22, 28 Jb 33,18. 22. 28) or that he is snatched from mortal danger; in all these cases the man’s nefes is merely a synonym for the man himself.”—Columns 2287, 2288.

It also says that psykhé, the word used for “soul” in the Christian Greek Scriptures of the Bible, “frequently designates physical life.”—Column 2288.

*IMMORTALITY
*
The word “immortality” does appear in the apocryphal book of Wisdom, which was originally written not in Hebrew but in Greek, and is sometimes inserted into the pre-Christian Hebrew Scriptures. But even this apocryphal book does not say that the soul is immortal. This Catholic dictionary says specifically* that “it is probable that in Wisdom immortality means the imperishable life that will be given to the elect in their resurrected bodies.”* It adds:  This*“In the New Testament also immortality is gained only in the resurrection. . . . is the reward which awaits the just on Judgment Day.”*—Column 854.

Actually, the words “immortal” and “immortality” are rarely used in the Bible. In the King James Version they appear a total of only six times. At 1 Timothy 1:17 and; 1 Ti 6:16 God and Christ are spoken of as being immortal, or incorruptible. At Romans 2:7 immortality (or incorruptibility) is spoken of, not as something inherent in man, but as something to be ‘sought.’ Second Timothy 1:10 says Christ ‘shed light’ on this subject. Finally, at 1 Corinthians 15:53, 54, the word “immortality” is used twice, not to describe something people have, but something they must *“put on.”*

Thus, the Bible teaches that the soul is the life you enjoy. Your soul is YOU. When you live, you are a living soul. When you die, the soul is dead.

*Then, is there no hope for man?
*
Yes, there is hope. But it does not depend upon your having an “immortal soul.” Instead, it depends upon one’s being covered by the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, so that he will be resurrected, or restored to life, on a perfected paradise earth after God destroys the present wicked system and establishes righteous conditions of lasting peace and justice earth wide.—Rev. 20:11-13; 21:1-4.

This resurrection hope, rarely discussed in today’s churches, is taught in both the Hebrew and the Christian Greek Scriptures of the Bible, and was stressed by first-century Christians. In fact, one modern religious authority said:* “The most startling characteristic of the first Christian preaching is its emphasis on the resurrection.”8*

Knowing the Bible truth about the soul enables you to make a vital decision. What is that? To determine which religion is true and which religion is false. For any religion that teaches the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul must be false. This being so, will you continue to associate with such or will you associate with those who teach God’s truth?

_REFERENCES

1 Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Justin Martyr, Dialogue V.

2 Oration to the Greeks, Tatian, Section 13. Quoted from French translation, Discours contre les Grecs, in Les Pères de l’Eglise, by de Genoude (Paris; 1838), p. 233.

3 Patrology, Berthold Altaner (originally published in German as Patrologie) (Friedberg, West Germany; 1960), p. 207.

4 Dictionnaire Encyclopèdique de la Bible, edited by Alexandre Westphal (Valence-sur-Rhone, France; 1956), Vol. 2, p. 557, column 1.

5 Ibid., column 2.

6 Ibid., column 1.

7 Ibid., column 2.

8 The New Bible Dictionary, edited by J. D. Douglas (London; 1962), p. 1086.

[Footnotes]

For examples see Leviticus 21:11; Numbers 6:6. More than eighty instances in which the Bible refers to the soul as being capable of dying are cited on pages 3558, 3559 of the 1963 one-volume edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.

When you look these verses up in your modern translation of the Bible, you may find that the word “soul” has been replaced by “body,” “man,” “me,” “person,” or another word. This is because translators who believed that the Bible teaches the soul is immortal obviously encountered a problem of conscience when they came across passages that say it dies. However, in each of the above-mentioned instances the word used in the Bible’s original Hebrew language is néphesh, which these same translators rendered elsewhere as “soul.”

The Hebrew word for “soul” is used 750 times in the Bible to refer to (1) a person, an individual, or a lower animal, or (2) the life that a person or animal enjoys as such. This is entirely different from the ideas modern Christendom has inherited from the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans._

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## gregonejeep

Very good post SNAFU and thanks for taking the time to write it. And I did read every word of it, minus all the references posted. And no offense meant, but if one reads your post above, they will see why today that so many people are just living their lives right on, without any participation in any religious denomination of faith. As your post above at least to me, just increased my confusion.


Because to me, there is only two reasons a person participates in any religion...

1. They want their religious teachings to help guide them while they are living their life, to live in a peaceful and fulfilling manner. To be a upright and good person, that when they die they can look back on their life and have no regrets or any fear of their passing. And while living their life according to their faith, they have hope their children will pursue, some denomination of faith also.


2. They are really not comfortable with the notion that, when they take their last breath... their whole time on earth is just wiped away forever.  Nothing will exist of them, except their tombstone or urn. People want to believe that if they will do as their religion teaches them to do, they will get a reward. And that reward is that when they die, they will in another "state of being" that will get to be with their passed loved ones again. And also in their hopes that, they will get to reside in a "new " spiritual body, while living in place of pure love and peaceful bliss for eternity. And the hope of being with their passed loved ones "spirit" bodies again, while in the Kingdom of God.


With my two points above, we are right back to where I stated when I said, that I believe the  soul/spirit...does not die. Why would I say such a thing, when the Bible states that it will die, unless it is "saved" ??? OMG ! GOJ is now a cultist, Satanist, devil worshiper ! Nope, I am not. I am a believer in Christ as my first few posts on this thread indicate. But I also believe that we have not been taught by the old Biblical writers...the rest of the story. 


Every since my conversation with a Baptist pastor back in 1981, when I had my "spiritual" experience, I have been trying to get a better understanding of the"afterlife",  Heaven, and Hell. In 1981 for a while, I went to different churches while trying to find one, that actually taught what my KJV Bible had written it.

One of the churches I just went in and visited the pastor, while there was no services being conducted. We talked about a few of my questions and then, I asked him what I really had on my mind. Which was my concern with me being 29 years old, and that I had not yet been "saved". So I asked him what would a person need to do at his church, to be "saved". He replied...

" You must believe with all your heart and soul that Jesus Christ,is your Lord and Savior. You must put your life in His Hands, ask Him for repentance for all of your present and passed sins, and then sin no more and be Baptized". 

I do not know why I asked the following question, but the pastor's reply sort of "stuck" with me for a LONG time. I asked  him... Can a person be saved even at their last hours of life ?"  He replied, " Yes they can, all they need to do is what I have already said to do."

I said, " So a person can live a bad life like... say a serial killer, and a week before they get executed they can call the prison clergy in and asked to be saved and they will be saved ?"

He replied, " Sure they can, if they are telling the truth. It has happened more than once in a prison, I feel sure". 

I asked the pastor in my state of confusion, " How can that be ? A man that has done nothing but evil his whole life, at his last hours can get the same redemption from his sins, as say a 16 year old that was baptized and then led his whole 80 years of life, while living it as a Christian ?" 

The pastor replied, " I know to one that has just started in your Biblical studies as you have, my reply comes across as disturbing to you probably. But you need to understand that Christ did NOT state a time period for a person to be saved, nor does He require a list of the sins, that a person may have committed to receive salvation. The sinner to get salvation, just needs to do as I said earlier. And you also need to know, that all Scriptures in the Holy Bible are divine and infallible, and they are NOT to be questioned"

Well, I have been questioning them for 39 years now. Look at how many various Bible translations there are to read. So who knows which translated Bible, is the RIGHT one? Does it have WORD FOR WORD printed in it, as it was recorded over 2000 years ago ? 

And I will keep on questioning, until my time ends. Because I look at it this way. If GOJ writes down on a paper, " I saw a pink flying pig today and it's name was Rosie".  Pass this sentence onward from today unto the pages of various nations front line newspapers for 2000 years and then read it.  Does anyone think it will read EXACTLY like it does today?

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> Very good post SNAFU and thanks for taking the time to write it. And I did read every word of it, minus all the references posted. And no offense meant, but if one reads your post above, they will see why today that so many people are just living their lives right on, without any participation in any religious denomination of faith. As your post above at least to me, just increased my confusion.
> 
> 
> Because to me, there is only two reasons a person participates in any religion...
> 
> 1. They want their religious teachings to help guide them while they are living their life, to live in a peaceful and fulfilling manner. To be a upright and good person, that when they die they can look back on their life and have no regrets or any fear of their passing. And while living their life according to their faith, they have hope their children will pursue, some denomination of faith also.
> 
> 
> 2. They are really not comfortable with the notion that, when they take their last breath... their whole time on earth is just wiped away forever.  Nothing will exist of them, except their tombstone or urn. People want to believe that if they will do as their religion teaches them to do, they will get a reward. And that reward is that when they die, they will in another "state of being" that will get to be with their passed loved ones again. And also in their hopes that, they will get to reside in a "new " spiritual body, while living in place of pure love and peaceful bliss for eternity. And the hope of being with their passed loved ones "spirit" bodies again, while in the Kingdom of God.
> ...


And the confusion will continue if one is attached to a particular denomination that is ruled more by church doctrines and dogmas rather than Scripture.  There are over 28,000 christian (small c) denominations and sects in the world.  Obviously, there is something wrong with this picture, whereas Jesus founded one church, one faith, and one way.  

There isn't much difference between one translation over another when you get beyond the 'meaning of words" as previously discussed.

Personally, I'm not one of those that think that the KJV is the best English version.  Unfortunately, The Latin Vulgate had some influence in that translation, plus its written in 'archaic' English. The two original languages of the OT and NT were written in Hebrew and Koin Greek, not Latin.  The scholars of today are far more advanced than they were  back 1611 when the KJV was penned. I like the later versions, such as the ASV, NIV, ESV, NKJV and NWT, but not limited thereto.

I would suggest two things; Get an *Interlinear translation* of both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, and pray to God for direction and understanding.

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## gregonejeep

Thanks for the tip on the interlinear book. But now over the years of reading my old KJV, I really do not have a real problem understanding the Scriptures words as they are written.  I have problems with the "concept" of some of the Scripture's sentences as they are written. Therefore, I am not really willing to invest another $60.00 in to another book to read. 

Because really, at some point for a person to get the full understanding of any topic, they need someone with a lot higher knowledge of the topic, to come right out and tell them the answer to their question(s).  

Because if the person in a debate that is presenting their data cannot lay their data source down to their side and then speak for it's integrity in plain English ( or other). Then, how is the person doing the questioning supposed to take that person's data...as credible ? 

IE: I have posted almost all of my SN experiences that I have had on this thread, and I tried to write every detail in my post  that I thought was pertinent. Just so the reader could more easily "envision" in their "minds eye", what I was experiencing. I even posted the actual pics of some of the  objects involved in my experience(s). 

And since my posts of my SN experiences are NOT lies but the* truth*, (liars have a past "recollection" issue of what they may have said and being able to repeat their words accurately again) I was able to post every experience as if they had just happened yesterday. Even though some of them were the 28 year old events, and some were only a 7 year old event. 

Now here is what I would like for you SNAFU to do, if you have the time. As you are apparently a person that is well versed in the Bible's Scriptures, a LOT more so than I am. And I assume that you believe in the phrases that you are posting, or you would not post them.

Please reply without posting ANY* references to Scriptures* how that you perceive in your mind, how the event in red text will take place.  And if you would, please write your reply to me as if I were sitting the required 6 ft. away from you and listening to you. 

Here is the text that you posted earlier that I just C/P'ed below. I understand the part of course, about the ransom sacrifice of Christ (salvation) of ones soul. So please just make your reply about the red text that will take place for the "saved" soul.

SNAFU posted >  *Then, is there no hope for man?

Yes, there is hope. But it does not depend upon your having an “immortal soul.” Instead, it depends upon one’s being covered by the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, so that he will be resurrected, or restored to life, on a perfected paradise earth after God destroys the present wicked system and establishes righteous conditions of lasting peace and justice earth wide.—Rev. 20:11-13; 21:1-4.*

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> SNAFU posted >  *Then, is there no hope for man?
> 
> Yes, there is hope. But it does not depend upon your having an “immortal soul.” Instead, it depends upon one’s being covered by the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ, so that he will be resurrected, or restored to life, on a perfected paradise earth after God destroys the present wicked system and establishes righteous conditions of lasting peace and justice earth wide.—Rev. 20:11-13; 21:1-4.*


 :Geez: My previous posts, backed up with Scripture gave that explanation in detail.  However, I think your problem is, like many others who are unable to separate the *Literal, Figurative and Symbolic language of the Bible from one another.* 

Even those of higher learning will be denied understanding without* study*, *dedication,* and especially, with the *right motive*,* and of course, God's grace.

*"At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."  ~ Matt. 11:25

 :F Sorry: . But this conversation is becoming circular and going nowhere. In the meantime, Sayonara boo, boo..

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## SharetheHedge

_[gregonejeep]2. They are really not comfortable with the notion that, when they take their last breath... their whole time on earth is just wiped away forever. Nothing will exist of them, except their tombstone or urn. People want to believe that if they will do as their religion teaches them to do, they will get a reward. And that reward is that when they die, they will in another "state of being" that will get to be with their passed loved ones again__. And also in their hopes that, they will get to reside in a "new " spiritual body, while living in place of pure love and peaceful bliss for eternity. And the hope of being with their passed loved ones "spirit" bodies again, while in the Kingdom of God.[/gregonejeep]_


That is actually a viable point AGAINST  the bible/gospel/religion being objectively true. People ultimately believe what they WANT to. There is a psychological desire to want to believe that there is a WAY you can live forever. For many, their normal amount of skepticism and reason will be overwhelmed by the prospect of eternal life - and all they have to do to receive it is BELIEVE! 

I'm NOT saying this proves there is no afterlife, but it makes the whole thing suspicious simply because there is an obvious psychological explanation of WHY many would choose to believe it. If you can't handle the prospect of NON-EXISTENCE after death, you most likely WILL end up believing in a way you can procure eternal life. Or else you will live in fear and/or depression if the subject is one that is on your mind a lot  :Dontknow:

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## gregonejeep

> My previous posts, backed up with Scripture gave that explanation in detail.  However, I think your problem is, like many others who are unable to separate the *Literal, Figurative and Symbolic language of the Bible from one another.* 
> 
> Even those of higher learning will be denied understanding without* study*, *dedication,* and especially, with the *right motive*,* and of course, God's grace.
> 
> *"At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."  ~ Matt. 11:25
> 
> . But this conversation is becoming circular and going nowhere. In the meantime, Sayonara boo, boo..


Well, you have made it circular by not answering a simple question. Which shows me that you are not 100% sure of how you would have answered my question.

Here is a link https://thepoliticsforums.com/thread...=1#post2108841 to the Revelations thread. the BOOK that you seem to like using a lot as a reference. And when one reads the post in the link, many will take their eyes away from the screen, just as confused as I am.

Because HOW many people over the passed 1500 years have written books or spoken to their classes using THEIR interpretation and  understanding of the Book of Revelations ? Back in the 80's when I was searching for "spiritual " truth, my nephew told me I need to watch Herbert w. Armstrong on TV as he was the ONLY pastor, that was interpreting the BOR as it's prophesies would really become a reality one day and time...for we humans on earth. 

And I did watch HWA for two months every Sunday and the man made MORE sense to me in his interpretations of the BOR, than anyone I had ever heard. As he would tell the viewers what each " sign" meant and name the country it involved etc. Page by page every Sunday he taught we veiwers.

Now today, look up what happened to the church of HWA and see what his flock thinks of HWA  teachings. I just posted in the Zen thread, that I have come to the conclusion the Holy Bible was written for the Prophets and Saints to use as THEIR guide book. 

And I think maybe that it was not really meant for we commoners to learn from it. And those Prophets and Saints used their knowledge as power over the people for hundreds of years. And over those hundreds of years the commoners gradually started breaking free from their "power" and started creating their own places of worship.

Now we have pastors/priest/clergymen etc. to teach us the Scriptures, THEIR way. And today we have HUNDREDS of various religious denominations/beliefs to pick from, if we want.

And you call my posts asking about the Scriptures being "circular" logic ??  LOL....

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## gregonejeep

> _[gregonejeep]2. They are really not comfortable with the notion that, when they take their last breath... their whole time on earth is just wiped away forever. Nothing will exist of them, except their tombstone or urn. People want to believe that if they will do as their religion teaches them to do, they will get a reward. And that reward is that when they die, they will in another "state of being" that will get to be with their passed loved ones again__. And also in their hopes that, they will get to reside in a "new " spiritual body, while living in place of pure love and peaceful bliss for eternity. And the hope of being with their passed loved ones "spirit" bodies again, while in the Kingdom of God.[/gregonejeep]_
> 
> 
> That is actually a viable point AGAINST  the bible/gospel/religion being objectively true. People ultimately believe what they WANT to. There is a psychological desire to want to believe that there is a WAY you can live forever. For many, their normal amount of skepticism and reason will be overwhelmed by the prospect of eternal life - and all they have to do to receive it is BELIEVE! 
> 
> I'm NOT saying this proves there is no afterlife, but it makes the whole thing suspicious simply because there is an obvious psychological explanation of WHY many would choose to believe it. If you can't handle the prospect of NON-EXISTENCE after death, you most likely WILL end up believing in a way you can procure eternal life. Or else you will live in fear and/or depression if the subject is one that is on your mind a lot


  I cannot totally disagree with your post here SH, but I would like to expand on it some and add my opinion here. Whenever  I post my personal opinion on any thread topic, I try to base my opinion from one of my *real life experiences.* IE: If you post that you do not like Lowe's paint's, then I am not going to post to your thread while being negative or positive about Lowe's paints...unless I have used Lowes paints.

Because if I have not used Lowes paint's myself, how can I tell people my opinion about them and still maintain any credibility?

Now to your text that I put in blue above in your quote.  if you will, please go back to my post #25 and read it. Then, come back and post your thoughts on it, then we can both kick this can down the road.

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## gregonejeep

Well, I return to see that SNAFU and STH both, have chosen to bail out of this thread. Which is fine by me, I'll just keep on posting to this thread and replying to myself, until it's "time" comes for it to die. 

My thread here that I named, "The Realm of the Supernatural" is the place IMO where the human being's soul goes after their physical body dies. And once the soul is in the supernatural realm, many prefer to call it a "spirit" as I do also. 

The words soul and spirit are mentioned MANY times, in the Holy Bible's Old Testament (OT)and New Testament (NT).

Because if one will really think about it, if "something" (soul/spirit) does not live beyond the death of our body, there is nothing to be "saved "or "lost" or "damned" is there?  Because no where in my KJV Bible does it read that a living, "flesh and blood" man, will ever stand before God/Christ for judgement.  
And in my KJV Bible, the words soul and spirit are even found in the Scripture's in the Book of Genesis, during the Creation.

Genesis Ch 1.... 

Verse 2: And the earth was without form and void, and the darkness upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Verse 3: And God said, "Let there be light" and there was light.

Verse 4: God made all living creatures on earth....(and the creation of all things were written from verse:4- 25)

Verse 26: And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the fowl of the air "...(on and on). 

Verse 27: So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created he them. 

Verse 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them," Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, fowl of the air... (on and on) 

Genesis Ch 2:.....

Verse : 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed in to his nostrils the Breath of Life, and man became a living soul. 

The Bible's Book of Genesis clearly states that man is a living "soul" So why is there so much confusion about what happens to ones soul, upon the death of their body?  We know that the "Fall of Man", "Original Sin" where Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, (metaphors) that Adam and Eve changed God's "plan" for His man creation. And now we human's are living and dying on this earth by the sweat of our brow, forever. 

And that our "death" since A&E's expulsion from the Garden of Eden time, and our belief in Christ or not, takes up a lot of Scripture space in our Bible's. The following text, of which I have taken the liberty of C/P'ing from the Revelations thread courtesy of Calypso Jones. It gives the reader some insight and even some confusion, if they are not well versed in the interpretation of the Scripture's on what happens to ones "soul" after their death.


*Question: "What happens after death?"

 Answer:  Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to heaven or hell. Others believe that at the moment of death, people are instantly judged and sent to their eternal destinations. Still others claim that when people die, their souls/spirits are sent to a “temporary” heaven or hell, to await the final resurrection, the final judgment, and then the finality of their eternal destination. So, what exactly does the Bible say happens after death?



 First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior  John 3:, 18, 36). 

For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? 

It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).


 Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. 
Luke 16:22-23describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. 

Revelation 20:11-15describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24).


 Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).


*After I read the above text 5 times now, I think I undestand what is written, but not totally.  As to me there are some un-answered questions. Just for one, the above text does NOT take in to consideration the "supernatural" experiences that I have posted in this thread already. The SN events that happened to me, that were the result of "something" existing, that were "outside" of my normal realm of existence.

 Nor does the text above about what happens to ones soul after death, address the millions of others out here with their SN experiences. The same ones that have just chosen to remain silent OR, they have just told those people very close and trusted to them, about their SN(s) 

I see now there is a Zen thread ongoing on this forum. It is interesting to me, how that people will pursue the art of Zen and deep meditation (an art taught from both Buddhism and Hinduism).  But yet, many will choose to believe that Christianity is the ONLY correct belief, when it comes to what happens to a man's soul/spirit ?

Can we be so smug in our belief's, to believe that the Eastern faiths (Buddhism and Hinduism) that were in existence and practiced millenniums BEFORE Christ, are totally *wrong and that we are justified* in our words when we call them a "*cult*" ?

I for one, am not so smug. As I believe that any faith or practicing denomination of religion, as long as it does NOT harm ones mind, their body, or any other person's body, nor any animal's body, then it probably has something in it to be learned that could be useful to we humans in living a better life. Especially, as we try to find our answers to our questions...from our teachers of about our faith, spirituality, the afterlife, or even the supernatural. 

And when we ask our teachers, pastor's, or even our friends our questions about our spiritual teachings, afterlife, supernatural etc. We can see readily, they would just as soon move right along to another topic. As what we just asked them, has taken them out of their "comfort zone". The "zone" of what they have learned and staunchly believe about the topics of the "afterlife or supernatural" as it pertains to their faith or religious upbringing.  To be continued....

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## SharetheHedge

> Well, I return to see that SNAFU and STH both, have chosen to bail out of this thread. Which is fine by me, I'll just keep on posting to this thread and replying to myself, until it's "time" comes for it to die.



Well, it's possible that "time" has come, if you wind up just replying to yourself  :Smiley20: ? 8 pages is a pretty good run for a thread (though you may have taken up a large portion of that with your own posts?  :Dontknow: ) I would point out there's a difference, though, between "bailing out" of a discussion/debate and simply losing interest? For me, it's mostly the latter at this point. I can't find anything else substantive to discuss  :Thinking:

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## gregonejeep

> Well, it's possible that "time" has come, if you wind up just replying to yourself ? 8 pages is a pretty good run for a thread (though you may have taken up a large portion of that with your own posts? ) I would point out there's a difference, though, between "bailing out" of a discussion/debate and simply losing interest? For me, it's mostly the latter at this point. I can't find anything else substantive to discuss


No hard feelings on my behalf SH, as I understand your position completely to no longer want to post to this thread.  As I do not participate in discussion threads either, whenever the thread topic is about something that I believe ...does not exist.

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## gregonejeep

My novel continues....

In the above C/P'ed post from the Revelations thread the first sentence reads..." Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death".  And once the reader reads the rest of the post, I for one agree totally with the opening sentence. The Biblical scholars will have even more answers as to what happens to ones soul after death, as they quote even more Scriptures.

Here is a Scripture about man's soul from KJV Proverbs 19:2 " Also, that the soul be without Knowledge, it is not good". To me, this verse reads that man's soul/spirit does acquire knowledge from their infancy to their death.  And I believe that when a human fetus is developing, they are given a soul by our Creator. But are we to believe that only the people that become Christians, have been given a soul ?? Therefore, are all non-Christians soul-less ? IMO, I think not...

And to the Revelation's post I have C/P'ed above, I will post what Christ stated Himself what that it takes for one's soul/spirit to live on in eternity in the Kingdom of God. One of the ruler's of the Jews named Nicodemus, was saying to Christ that He must be a man of God, to be able to do the miracles that He was known to do. Christ words in red below, were spoken to Nicodemus as they are written in my KJV St. John 3: vs. 3-8
3. 
Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God. 

4. Nicodemus said unto Him, How can a man be born when he is old ? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?

5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter in to the Kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee: Ye must be born again.
8. 
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell where whence it cometh. So is everyone that is born of the Spirit. 

Back in 1981 when I asked two different pastor's what Christ meant in the Scriptures above especially verse 5, they both gave me the same answer which was (not quoted EXACTLY word for word, as it's been 39 years ago now). 

"When a person receives the salvation of Christ through Baptism, the ritual of dunking the person in water, is symbolic of washing away their sins. And once the person makes the commitment to be saved by Christ and to be baptized, they will shed their body of it's sin, and they will live their lives from that day on in the "Spirit of Christ".  And they will enjoy the "fruits of the Spirit" as they are written in Galatians 5: 22 which reads
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith". 

And when the pastor quoted me the verse 22 of Galatians, I immediately recognized the words that he spoke. They were describing what I was feeling inside of me at the time (1981) and I was acting upon them daily. But I had not went to a church and been baptized at the time, when I was speaking with the pastor(s). So why did I get the same "gift" for a time, as one that was baptised? 

 All that I had done (post #25) was studied my old KJV Bible with an open mind and un-darkened heart. So what else can one surmise from their reading the following red text in verse 6 ? 
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. < If we take the words literally, they read to me that only the people that were/are saved through baptism, will be able to have their soul/spirit enter in to the Kingdom of God. 

We read in the Revelation post above, that all of the ashes of the dead people that were saved,will be raised up and given new "spiritual" bodies to be judged. For the spiritually minded person, they just accept this as the truth as it is written in the Bible. For the person just starting out reading the Bible or for the non-believers, this verse will not make any sense at all to them. As the concept of the dead people's ashes that may have been strewn out over a large field, or cast in to the ocean to be reunited with the original person in a new spiritual body to be judged.... is not even remotely fathomable. 

How could this work while knowing which person's ashes were saved or not ? How would the right ashes be reconstituted in to the original person they belonged ? To the carnal mind the "logical" answer to this question, is not to be. But to the spiritually minded person with faith, they just know it will happen. And many believers will just will quote to the non-believer, " With God, All things are possible". 


 And many will also say that we must know that many of the Scriptures were written as figurative, parables, metaphors, or allegorically by its authors, during it's many translations over the centuries now. Therefore, every reader may interpret them different. So what is conceivable or that makes sense to a person that may not be a Biblical scholar, when it comes to what will happen to ones soul/spirit after their death ?  My SN experience(s) proved to me that "something" exists of a person after they die. But what was it ?  TBC....

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## SharetheHedge

> No hard feelings on my behalf SH, as I understand your position completely to no longer want to post to this thread.  As I do not participate in discussion threads either, whenever the thread topic is about something that I believe ...does not exist.



It's not that I "believe" what you are referring to "does not exist", I don't know WHAT to make of it, if you are supposing your experience represents a Christian viewpoint? Are you saying that spirits of departed people wander the earth and sometimes are responsible for paranormal actions? If so, that does not square with traditional Christianity. So I'm not really sure what you are claiming  :Thinking:

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## gregonejeep

> It's not that I "believe" what you are referring to "does not exist", I don't know WHAT to make of it, if you are supposing your experience represents a Christian viewpoint? Are you saying that spirits of departed people wander the earth and sometimes are responsible for paranormal actions? If so, that does not square with traditional Christianity. So I'm not really sure what you are claiming


The New Testament has many Scriptures written about Christ casting out evil and dark spirits from people in His days on earth, even some dumb spirits that he removed. 

Do you consider the RCC to be a church that practices "traditional" Christianity ? If you do, this link to a US Conference of Catholic Bishops webpage may be of interest for you to read..http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wors...s/exorcism.cfm

Speaking of a Catholic, this brings to mind another person that shared their "supernatural" experience with me many years ago, of which I will share in another post now....

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## gregonejeep

Many years ago I was hired to work in a facility and of course, my boss was new to me and I to him. As the months went by he and I became "friends". But with the fact that he was always my Boss first, and this fact never being placed too far back away from our relationship. Either at our work, or even if we went out somewhere for lunch together.

 But I did learn from my boss during our short conversations a few things about him. Like that just a year prior, he had sold his home that he and his wife had in a New England state and moved to KY. Where he knew that his money would buy a LOT more land and home, while spending his retirement days living the easy life. He told me that he grew up in the NE state and that he was raised in a Catholic family. And that once he graduated college and left home and got married, he never really went to church anymore, like that he was made to do when he was a kid. 

I had been under his supervision for about a year when one afternoon the day before Halloween, I stopped by his office. I had to finish up some paperwork that he needed from me, before I clocked out to go home. So while just making chit chat, I asked my boss was he taking his two kids that were 9 and 11 years old at the time, to any "haunted" houses for the trick or treat night. He laid back in his desk chair and clasped his hands behind his head and replied to me without any humor in his voice....

" Oh hell no, I learned about those haunted house stories when I was 16 years old. So I am not about to put my kids anywhere near one."  

My curiosity had just been peaked to the max, so I had to ask him, " What happened ? Did you go in to a haunted house when you was 16"??

He replied to me, " I sure did and here is what happened. Me and my buddy were just sitting on the front porch one Saturday evening, when my Uncle pulled over to the sidewalk and parked in front of my house. So we go out to his car and he rolled his car window down and just started BS'ing with us. After a while he told us, " Hey, how about youse guys doin something for me tonight ? It will be a easy job and I'll pay youse guys 10 bucks a piece to do it. " 

My boss said that he asked his Uncle, "Depends on what kind of job it is I guess, what is it"?? 

The Uncle said, " Youse guys probably know last year, that I bought a old two story house up on xxxx street. I remodeled it and made it in to two apartments and am renting it out now. Now every since I rented it out, the tenants upstairs have complained about hearing these freakin "noises" after they go to bed at night in the apartment.

So I checked it out one day when the tenants were home, figuring maybe the foundation was settling or tree limb rubbing on the roof or some animal type sht. I could not find anything making any noises. So a month later, they gave me a short notice and they moved out on me. Now my new tenants that have just been in the upstairs apartment three months now, moved out on me last week. They told me the reason they were leaving was the same sht as the other tenants, they said there was "noises " and "spooky crap" going on in the apartment" 

So if youse guys will, I want you to go check out the upstairs apartment and let me know what is going on with the noises, probably some kind of critter getting in I bet. Here is the key to the upstairs apartment and wait until almost dark and take some flashlights, because I have had the electric turned off to the apartment ". 


My boss said that he and his buddy got to the old house right at dark. They went up the stairs and opened the apartment door and went in and sat down on the floor in the living room. The LR still had some of the tenants small belongings in it they supposed, they would be coming back to pick up later. They sat their quietly on the floor for about two minutes, when all of a sudden, they heard something crashing to the floor.  They both jumped up and with their flashlights turned on, they slowly walked to the kitchen wall where the noise was coming from they had heard. 

Just as their flashlights lit up the kitchen, my boss said he watched as the refrigerator was rocking side to side while the stuff the tenants had left sitting on top of it, crashed to the floor. And the refrigerator was already at that time, sitting about a foot and a half, out away from the wall. My boss said that he and his buddy took off running down the steps as fast as they could go, and they did not even take the time to lock the apartment door. 

And when my boss told his Uncle about what happened the next day his Uncle said to him, 
" Geez, I hate this sht. Just keep this under your hat O.K. ?? Now I have to go talk to my priest and see if he can do something".

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## gregonejeep

When people since the times of Christ speak of "spirits" whether they are sitting in their church Sunday School class or their living room when they do so, they will garner some "discerning" looks from their fellow human beings when they hear them. Because "spiritism" had its time in our history and the churches revelled against the people or organizations that practiced "spiritism/spiritualism". As they believed these were acts of heresy, completely contrary to the Holy Bibles teachings. 

And our history also shows, what happened to the "witches" and "sorcerers" during the times of old as they were deemed to be heretics and Satanists and then hung, stoned, or burned at the stake or worse. As these people stated they were communicating with the "spirits" of the dead, which is an abomination to God called necromancy. An abomination that is spoken of in the Holy Bible, by the Prophets in the OT. 


We can also find in the KJV Holy Bible (mine at least) in the Old Testament the word "spirit" is written in the Scriptures 523 times and in the Scriptures of the New Testament...287 times. And not just in the context as "God is Spirit" or " the Spirit came down from the clouds from above".  The word "spirit" is written in the Scripture's many times as pertaining to the living soul, or the "spirit" within a human being. And Christ many times removed "evil" spirits from living people, cast out "devils", and even healed the "dumb" spirit in one man. 

And there was the man named Edgar Cayce known as "The Sleeping Prophet" that was born and raised in Hopkinsville, KY that had many books written about his life. His "works' as a medium were documented by very trustworthy people. Unlike most "mediums" EC said that he did not want to profit from his "gifts' from God. And he tried to maintain a modest lifestyle while using his "gifts' to help invent medicines for the sick while in his trances. Where at times he would "see" a cure or a method to help ease the pain or sickness of that person, that he had put himself in a "trance" just to see if he could help them. He spent much of his life trying to advance the medical fields, while using his "gift" from God. 

But alas, the greedy people heard of Mr. Cayce and his "gifts" and they hoped that he could "foretell" their fortunes while picking a stock, or the winning horse. And when he refused their generous offerings to do so, they in retaliation waged smear campaigns against Mr. Cayce's gifts as they claimed he was a "charlatan".  Which was not really a hard campaign to build a platform upon at all. Because Mr. Cayce's "works" was an abomination, as he was a doer of necromancy according to the church leaders of his time, and the Holy Bible.     

 And most all that can read and that have vision, know the history of the mediums, soothsayer's and fortune teller's over the years. The ones we have seen that have written books and that have been on TV that were sooner or later, revealed as fakes. The Great illusionist's/magician Harry Houdini made a promise that if there was "anything" that existed for human beings beyond the grave that when he died, he would let his survivor's know of such an event. His survivor's to this day that I know of, have not given any such report from Mr. Houdini. 

And the illusionist/magician the Great Randi once he retired, wrote a blank check for a million dollars payable to ANYONE that could prove to him...that THEY could communicate with any "beings" in another dimension or beyond death. At last report, Randy still had his blank check in his desk I suppose.

So if one just reads the above post, it does not take much to convince a person that the Realm of the Supernatural, does not exist. Because if they do believe the SN realm exists, they are in such a small minority of the population of the world, they are as a drop of water landing in the ocean= insignificant.

In the same vein of thought, I have to ask of ALL of the religious denominations and various faiths on our earth today some of my own questions. If a person does not believe that ANYTHING can exist of a person's " intelligent being" (soul/spirit) once their body dies and decays (or is cremated) back in to ashes. Then...

1. What is one to believe, that will exist beyond our body's death that will live on in eternity, in the Kingdom of God? What will it be, that will hold our life's works on record be them good or bad or somewhere in between, from the time of our first action to our last, where our life's "works" can be judged in the Hereafter? 
Or will it be as many church denominations believe, that those "saved" in Christ will have their released souls upon their body's death, automatically go to "Heaven". 
2.  And the rest of all the "un-saved" human souls that have been released from dead bodies since AC, will just "die" as it is written in the OT Ezekiel.


My two questions above if I look at them as JUST pertaining to my SN experiences, I could find an answer in them IF I wanted to do so.  I could say my brother Ted who was a "unsaved" Atheist, and that his "dark spirit" stayed on earth and visited me for a while, just to be malevolent to me. As he treated me poorly when he was alive, why would his "spirit" not do me the same ? 

And my other "saved" brothers and sisters that passed on that I did not get one HINT of ANY of them being around me, after their passing... their souls did go straight on to Heaven.  

And the "dark spirit" that was in our first home that kept letting me know "he" was displeased with my remodeling of his home, by his stomp on the floor, his shadow, and his pantry door slamming.... he was still a earthbound spirit in his home by his own choice. 

But wait. I cannot prove there is a supernatural realm to other people, so therefore there is no such thing as a supernatural realm. So while knowing that as a newly wed in our first home while renovating it for 3 years I was probably bored so I made all of this stuff up. And when my brother Ted died, I needed to make all of that story up about him also, because how else could I explain my new cell phone battery dying for no reason. 

And my ex-bosses story about the apartment refrigerator shaking with no hands on it visible, well maybe he was just bored so rather than talk about the Knicks game, he chose to tell his new employee ME...that he was delusional and that he believed in haunted house/ghosts.

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## gregonejeep

And while those people that have had "supernatural" experiences that do choose to write or speak of their experience(s), their stories will not be believed by most people that read or hear them.  Because they believe that for any *movement* (or change of state) of a solid material object to take place, that another known source of energy must act upon it. And that for any *sound* created to be heard, there has to be a source of energy that caused the movement that created the sound. 

IE: *Movement*... A cardboard box cannot just move itself across the room without a source of some form of energy, being exerted on it. (a hand, machine or even the wind pushing it).

IE:* Sound*.. A sound can only be generated by a source of energy interacting with another solid material. Like when our exhaled air from our lungs is being pushed through our lips to create a "whistle". A falling rock splashing in to a river's water emits a noise to be heard by our ears. The pressure of steam being forced through a metallic reed to make a steam whistle or alarm.     

 And my above points are *very well justified for anyone to use*, while they are questioning someone's credibility when that person is writing or speaking about their SN experience. But what baffles me, is the reaction of the Biblical scholars, clergymen/women, or "believer's" that are being told or are reading, about someone's SN experience.

As their first reaction (whether they show it outwardly or not) to the person testifying of their SN experience, will be one of disbelief or outright indignance. Because how could anyone walking on earth today, be so disillusioned in their thinking ? Because their Biblical studies have taught them, that only the people of MUCH higher spiritual enlightenment, can have these "powers" to experience the "unseen". So the person stating they have had a SN experience, will be placed in that Biblical scholar's, clergyman, or believer's mind, as a person that is delving in to the "dark" side or the occult world.  

Anyone that participates in a Christian faith or belief, at some point in their lifetime will testify how they know the "power of prayer" works in their life. Because either through their own personal experience or of knowing someone close to them, the power of prayer has been proven to them. 

How many times have we read or listened to one testifying of how their church had put a "prayer group" praying fervently at their sick loved ones bedside, and their loved one recovered fully from their sickness ? 

The "non-believing" medical staff that worked diligently while providing the best care they could on the sick patient, will silently credit the patient's recovery on their efforts. The family members that asked their fellow church members for their prayer group prayer's, will KNOW their prayers were answered.

The non-believer listening to this person's testimony about how their church prayer group's prayers saved their loved one, will not be able to get the *proof* they need in order for them to believe this person's "supernatural" experience happened. Because the prayer's being sent from a person's conscious mind to Christ/God cannot be seen, only the results that occurred as the result of their prayer's, can be seen.   

Because we know that Christ Himself did not appear in their loved ones hospital room in the "flesh" to answer their prayers because if He had, the books written about the event and pictures taken...would still be on the front pages to see today somewhere. Therefore, the "answering" of a person's prayers IMO, are a supernatural event. Because the person praying is asking God/Christ for their help or guidance via their prayer(s).

God/Christ does not come to the person's home to answer their prayer(s). IMO, the believer's prayers are answered by God/Christ's *Spirit* working through other people in that person's life, so they can help them answer the person's prayer(s).

So in the case of the sick patient and the prayer group above, I see both the believer's and the non-believer's being a participant in the unfolding of a supernatural "prayer" event. Because even the non-believing medical staff members that may have through no knowledge of their own, had their special skills needed for that patient's care, put in play to help save the patient.

 By something as simple maybe, as when he/she stopped by the nurses station to let them know they were leaving for the day, a nurse was "prompted" (the voice inside of us ?) to just suddenly ask him/her if they would just take a look at the medical treatment being given to the terminally ill patient in room 203. And when they did, they saw something missing on the patient's treatment records that could be done, THEY knew would help the patient. And they volunteered at the nurse's beckoning, to meet with the attending sick patient's physician about his/her findings that may help the patient. They did so, and their actions help save the patient. 

Which leads me to another real life SN event that happened to a loved one in MY life, when she was just a teenager back in the 50's. A person that has been my wife now, for 28 years.

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## gregonejeep

The following event was told to me by my wife one day when we were working on our second home, which was about 8 years in to our marriage of now 28 years. By then, I had known my wife for 10 years and she knew I hated liars. If this event is a lie, then I have no way of knowing it is or even WHY she would go to the trouble of telling me a lie, that was so OLD. 

As I have said before on this thread, liars have a really hard time repeating the same lie they told yesterday, little less one they told many years ago. (Dims of course, excluded here) And I repeat, I may have told this same event on here or maybe somewhere else before, so my words on this post today may not be the *exact repeat* word for word of this event.. but it is the same event. 


My wife was doing something in the kitchen and burned her hand. When I heard her let out a few loud profound words, I went to see what had happened. She showed me her mildly burned hand and then she sat down while putting some ointment on it, she told me, " I need my burn witch here with me to fix my hand"... I asked her while not being sure of what I had just heard.. "You need what " ???  She said to me, "You mean to tell me you have never heard of a burn witch ?  I replied, "No, I have not. And I am not really sure that I want to know about them."...



She replied, "Well, I will tell you about what a burn witch is anyway, just in case if anyone else mentions them to you". And the following is what my wife told me while I use fake names....

She said, "When I was 16 years old back in 1959 I was working as a waitress in my uncles diner. The lead waitress (Kate) told me to check to see if the coffee maker had water in it and if it did not, to fill it up and start the coffee. So being a kid and just reacting to orders, I grabbed a chair and stood up on it and grabbed the top of the big coffee maker to look in it. When I did, the hot water spilled out on to my right hand. I had just found out the wrong way, that someone had already filled the machine up and had run it through its cycle. 



I let out a "yell" and Kate came running over to me and looked at my hand. It had already turned really red and small white blisters were coming up on the skin. Kate grabbed a hand towel and ran cold water over it and then put it lightly over my burned hand. She then grabbed my left hand and pulled me towards the kitchen and told me there was a woman in the kitchen, that could help me.  She got the woman's attention (Betty) and motioned for her to come see her. 



Betty looked at my burned hand and she laid it in her right hand with the burn showing. She touched the two longest fingers from her left hand to her lips. Then while saying something under her breath and while repeating the words, Betty passed the two fingers back and forth over my hand without touching my skin. Betty then told Kate that she was done and that she needed to get back to the kitchen.



When Betty walked away I asked Kate, " Who was that woman and what did she just do to my hand" ?? Kate said, " She is what people around here call a "burn witch" and she has the powers to heal burns".I said to Kate, What ?? !! You let a WITCH mess with my hand, why would you do that to me ??  Kate said to me, " Honey, don't you fret none now, as you will be just fine. You will see".

 I worked the rest of my shift and when I clocked out to go home, I could see the white blisters on my burned hand were gone, and even the redness of the burn on my hand was almost gone. " So when my wife finished her story, I probably had a WTF ?? look on my face and I said to her, " So you expect me to believe that Ole Magic Betty cured your burned hand ?? " 


She replied, " I do not expect you to believe me, as you were not there to see what happened. But it happened just like I said that it did. And even six years later from back then when I was married and had my first child, I found out that Betty was still helping people with their burns around town, if they asked her to do so".

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## gregonejeep

Since my "spiritual enlightenment " (SE) experience that I had in 1981 (post 25) along with my other supernatural experiences that I posted in this thread, I have taken a lot "broader" look at the Christian faith. And also the "way" we humans look at what we perceive to be real to us, when we try to make sense of the various man made religions.

Even though my SE made me a believer in Christ, my experiences while trying to get more understanding from my local church pastors in 1981, just slowly drove me away from the Baptist church. The same denomination that I went to every Sunday from age 9-13.

One of the questions that I asked a pastor was the catalyst to start making me think,"outside of the box" about what the clergymen were telling me. And soon, even some of the Scriptures I was reading in my old KJV Bible did not "wash" with me. The question I asked the pastor was this....

"If a person lives their whole life doing evil such as a serial killer and in their last week in prison before being executed, let's say he gets "saved". (it has happened more than once I know in real life) 

Will that killer's soul be going to Heaven just the same as the person that was "saved" at say 16 years old, that thereafter lived a Christian life until they died at age 80" ??

The pastor replied, " If the killer was truly honest in his heart about his salvation request then yes, he will receive the same promise from Christ that anyone that is saved through Christ will get. As Christ while telling people how to be saved from damnation, did not put any "stipulations" in His way for one to receive their salvation". 

I left the church that day in 1981 and have not been back inside one except for funerals or weddings. Because if my soul or my departed sister's soul that lived a good, Christian life for her short 57 years will be residing in heaven with serial killers souls, Jeffrey Dahmer soul or even worse, then where has "justice" been served for living a good Christian life? 

If this is the way it works, then all humans should just live their lives in debauchery, crime, lust, lying, and while killing and maiming people to get what they want their whole lives. Wait, I just described the world we are living in right now.

If every child had been raised with what I believe now is the right way for one to "earn" their souls salvation through Christ. Then, we would not be seeing this messed up world now, that we are seeing on TV.

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## gregonejeep

When a person speaks of the "Realm of the Supernatural" to a person of any of the denominations of man made religions we know today, they will be confronted with an air of "coolness". Because to them, anyone that speaks or delves in to the study of the supernatural, they must be one of dark character. Satanic probably, or possibly even an escaped mental health facility patient. 

I honestly do not fit any of the criteria for the aforementioned, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

Yet while they practice their faith and say their prayers, they are using the supernatural realm, even if they will deny it. What ???  How could one even write such words ? Because people of faith will pray to God/Christ for their needs. Or to get guidance, or to even ask God/Christ to help someone they care about in their lives. And many will testify with their right hand on the Bible or on their Mother's grave, their prayers were answered. 

How is one to understand how this transaction of prayer, that was sent from a human on earth to God/Christ, took place ?  And even more so, how is one to understand how their prayers were answered ? If one reads the Old Testament they will read where in those days that God actually spoke to His chosen Prophets from the "heavens" above. From my reading, I have not found where in the NT, that God spoke to anyone on earth other than His son Christ. 

So how can it be that people that pray, get their prayers answered? The only word I can come up with is telepathy. But even telepathy falls in to the realm of the supernatural, as in the scientific world it is considered bogus. But is it? 

It's definition reads loosely, " Telepathy is a supposed "communication" being conducted between two people. While they use their minds only to communicate with each other, while neither person speaks out loud. 

But God/Christ is not a person in the flesh but a Spirit, as the Bible's Scripture's indicate. Here is just one Scripture indicating so, KJV Genesis 1:2...and the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the *Spirit* of God moved across the face of the waters. 

But how can the Holy Spirit of God/Christ communicate with a human in the flesh? Would this not require for man to have a *soul/spirit* to do so ? IMO I say yes it would, and I am not just making up the words. The KJV Bible mentions the word "spirit" around 523 times in the OT and 287 times in the NT. And the word "soul" is mentioned around 498 times in the OT and 55 times in the NT. 

And here is a KJV Scripture about the soul. Genesis 2:7 " and the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed in to his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living *soul*". 

 So are we to take that Adam was the only man to have a soul? I cannot see how it could be possible, as in the NT Christ and the Apostles mentions ones soul many times. 

It was proven to me that I have a soul/spirit within me, when I had my "spiritually enlightenment" (SE) event in 1981, as per my post 25 on this thread. What was it that happened to me that changed my "inner being" during my SE time ? IMO, it was the same thing that happens to all of the people that get their prayers answered.

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## SharetheHedge

:Studying:

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## S-N-A-F-U

What does the Scriptures say?


The Bible tells us that long before God formed the earth, he created millions of spirit creatures, or angels. (Job 38:4, 7; Revelation 5:11) Each of these angels was endowed with free will—the ability to choose between right and wrong. Some of them chose to rebel against God, and they abandoned their position in heaven to cause trouble on the earth. As a consequence, the earth became “filled with violence.”—Genesis 6:2-5, 11; Jude 6.

The Bible says that those wicked angels wield great influence, misleading millions of people. (Revelation 12:9) They even exploit  mankind’s natural curiosity about the future.—1 Samuel 28:5, 7; 1 Timothy 4:1.

True, some supernatural powers seem to help people. (2 Corinthians 11:14) In reality, however, the wicked angels are attempting to blind people’s minds to the truth about God.—2 Corinthians 4:4.

According to the Bible, therefore, contact with wicked spirits is not harmless fun. That is why when potential disciples of Jesus were taught the truth about such activities - "A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas." ~ Acts 19:19

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## gregonejeep

> What does the Scriptures say?
> 
> 
> The Bible tells us that long before God formed the earth, he created millions of spirit creatures, or angels. (Job 38:4, 7; Revelation 5:11) Each of these angels was endowed with free will—the ability to choose between right and wrong. Some of them chose to rebel against God, and they abandoned their position in heaven to cause trouble on the earth. As a consequence, the earth became “filled with violence.”—Genesis 6:2-5, 11; Jude 6.
> 
> The Bible says that those wicked angels wield great influence, misleading millions of people. (Revelation 12:9) They even exploit  mankind’s natural curiosity about the future.—1 Samuel 28:5, 7; 1 Timothy 4:1.
> 
> True, some supernatural powers seem to help people. (2 Corinthians 11:14) In reality, however, the wicked angels are attempting to blind people’s minds to the truth about God.—2 Corinthians 4:4.
> 
> According to the Bible, therefore, contact with wicked spirits is not harmless fun. That is why when potential disciples of Jesus were taught the truth about such activities - "A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas." ~ Acts 19:19


SNAFU wrote >The Bible tells us that long before God formed the earth, he created millions of spirit creatures, or angels. 

The text in blue above I will be expanding upon later. 

But the text posted in your quote above that insinuates that during my "spiritual enlightenment"  event that I had in 1981 per my post #25, that I was being influenced by a dark or evil "spirit" ??.... I do take offence to.

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## S-N-A-F-U

> SNAFU wrote >The Bible tells us that long before God formed the earth, he created millions of spirit creatures, or angels. 
> 
> The text in blue above I will be expanding upon later. 
> 
> But the text posted in your quote above that insinuates that during my "spiritual enlightenment"  event that I had in 1981 per my post #25, that I was being influenced by a dark or evil "spirit" ??.... I do take offence to.


When It comes to the Bible I'm not insinuating anything.  I'm not speaking of personal experiences relating thereto.  I was pointing out, per Scripture, those evil forces at work on this earth that are determined to *influence* man over God's proclamations.

Such as...

"in whose case the god of this world [Satan] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ~  2 Cor 4:4

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## gregonejeep

> When It comes to the Bible I'm not insinuating anything.  I'm not speaking of personal experiences relating thereto.  I was pointing out, per Scripture, those evil forces at work on this earth that are determined to *influence* man over God's proclamations.
> 
> Such as...
> 
> "in whose case the god of this world [Satan] has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ~  2 Cor 4:4


Well, I see now that you had to post even more Scripture to " answer" my reply above. Where I wrote that you were insinuating that my "spiritual experience" that I had in 1981, was from a "dark" spirit. 

Now here is your second reply to my claim above...SNAFU wrote per Quote > When It comes to the Bible I'm not insinuating anything.  I'm not speaking of personal experiences relating thereto.  I was pointing out, per Scripture, those evil forces at work on this earth that are determined to *influence* man over God's proclamations.< end of quote


So once again, rather than post your position held based on your own personal experience, you post another Scripture. And once again, your reply reads to me that you are stating that my "spiritual enlightment" event that I had in 1981,was the result of me being influenced from a "evil" force. OR, are you are saying that everything that I have written in my thread here, is the work of a "evil" force or "dark entity" that beseeched me ?

If I am standing in front of a man and he asked me, "What do you think these brown stains are on the back of my pants?" ??  And when I go around to the back of the man and see the brown stains and when I take a "whiff" of them and they smell like shit ?? 

I am not going to tell the man that he must have sat down on a Hershey bar of candy. I am going to tell him, " I may be wrong here, but it looks like you either sat down on a turd, or you just shit yourself".

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## S-N-A-F-U

> Well, I see now that you had to post even more Scripture to " answer" my reply above. Where I wrote that you were insinuating that my "spiritual experience" that I had in 1981, was from a "dark" spirit. 
> 
> Now here is your second reply to my claim above...SNAFU wrote per Quote > When It comes to the Bible I'm not insinuating anything.  I'm not speaking of personal experiences relating thereto.  I was pointing out, per Scripture, those evil forces at work on this earth that are determined to *influence* man over God's proclamations.< end of quote
> 
> 
> So once again, rather than post your position held based on your own personal experience, you post another Scripture. And once again, your reply reads to me that you are stating that my "spiritual enlightment" event that I had in 1981,was the result of me being influenced from a "evil" force. OR, are you are saying that everything that I have written in my thread here, is the work of a "evil" force or "dark entity" that beseeched me ?
> 
> If I am standing in front of a man and he asked me, "What do you think these brown stains are on the back of my pants?" ??  And when I go around to the back of the man and see the brown stains and when I take a "whiff" of them and they smell like shit ?? 
> 
> I am not going to tell the man that he must have sat down on a Hershey bar of candy. I am going to tell him, " I may be wrong here, but it looks like you either sat down on a turd, or you just shit yourself".


*One more time.*..And in keeping within the 'spirit' of this thread.  

As stated previously, my OP  has nothing do with *personal experiences of any kind*. It stands on its own merits concerning the *influence* vested over humanity by the "god of this world," and his minions.  Your frivolous attempt to make this a personal thing by delving into the pretense of 'insinuation,' and injecting semantics is curious to say the least.  Get over yourself!

Furthermore, unlike the OP in question, If I were to take issue with you on any subject, my concerns would have been addressed to you personally. 

I Haven't the time, nor interest in nonsense. I'm outta here!

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## gregonejeep

> *One more time.*..And in keeping within the 'spirit' of this thread.  
> 
> As stated previously, my OP  has nothing do with *personal experiences of any kind*. It stands on its own merits concerning the *influence* vested over humanity by the "god of this world," and his minions.  Your frivolous attempt to make this a personal thing by delving into the pretense of 'insinuation,' and injecting semantics is curious to say the least.  Get over yourself!
> 
> Furthermore, unlike the OP in question, If I were to take issue with you on any subject, my concerns would have been addressed to you personally. 
> 
> I Haven't the time, nor interest in nonsense. I'm outta here!


How else am I supposed to take what is "meant" by your replies ? When you reply to my posts with Scriptures that have text in them about "evil, dark spirits, Satanic" ? 

It is not "frivolous" to me, even when a person is being "nice" in their replies to my posts to indicate that I am being " influenced and guided" by evil entities. 

It's no wonder the young people of today do not pursue any sort of religion in their lives. Because they know if they do not "abide" by the church teachings per the sentence taught by the pastor/priest OR....

They dare question the "meaning" of a Scripture, they know they will get what I have gotten here from SNAFU. A person with "all hat and no cattle" telling them they are wrong in their Biblical questioning or opinion, so therefore they must be an offspring of Satan.

Below is a Scripture from my KJV Bible from the OT, that SNAFU likes to posts Scriptures from more often at least, than he does the NT. So he must believe in the OT Scriptures strongly, or he would not post them. 

Deut: 23.2 ..A bastard shall not enter in to the congregation of the Lord, even unto his tenth generation thereafter, shall he not enter in to the congregation of the Lord. 

Now while knowing that my Dad was a bastard, the Scripture above proves why I cannot find solace in a church. I am not supposed to even be inside of them. Or am I to take this Scripture literally word for word ? 


….​And Good Bye SNAFU !!

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## gregonejeep

From the end of my last post that was on topic....It was proven to me that I have a soul/spirit within me, when I had my "spiritually enlightenment" (SE) event in 1981, as per my post 25 on this thread. What was it that happened to me that changed my "inner being" during my SE time ? IMO, it was the same thing that happens to all of the people that get their prayers answered.

Any believer does not have to be told that God/Christ is the Highest and most Pure Spirit in the universe. The Bible states this in many Scriptures. So what is it in man, that can "communicate" with God/Christ ?  In my opinion, I believe it is man's soul or spirit. How can one that believes, deny such ? As once again, the Bible mentions the soul in man, many times. And the soul is what that Christ's teaches in the NT, that can be "damned". 

And for the believer that prays, how can that person that is praying have their thoughts sent to God/Christ? Unlike some of the TV preachers today that say they have a "direct line" to God, I cannot make such a claim regarding my "spiritual enlightenment" (SE) event I had in 1981. As at the time I was not a church patron, and I was at the lowest point in my life. But nonetheless. when I read my KJV Bible for a month or so every night, a change was made it my inner being, that I could not have made myself. 

It is apparent that one reader of this thread believes that my SE experience was caused from the influence of a "dark" spirit. Because the Bible does tell us that Satan can have his dark spirit's trick people in to believing, they are righteous entities. If Satan has the spirit entities that can make the change in ones "inner being" that I had made in mine in 1981, (including my "cross" dream?) then, everyone should stop reading their Holy Bible of whatever translation they are using..right now. 

No, no one should stop reading their Holy Bible while wanting to become a Christian. Because a person that is reading the Holy Bible with a open mind and un-darkened heart, will feel their sinful inner being changed. They will gradually start to understand the Scriptures better, the more they study them. 

These two attributes are not the works of a "dark" spirit, because Christ teaches about the signs of Satan and dark spirit's. What the reader that is wanting to change their life by becoming a Christian is experiencing is a change that can only come from a good and pure Spirit.

What is up, with all of this text on this thread about "spirits" one may ask ? As we humans  are raised to think of "spirits" as being the invisible entities participating in satanic rituals. Or what the soothsayers, mediums, use to communicate with the dead. And that are the "ghost's that live in haunted houses. Or it is the liquid that comes in tall bottles that when they drink it all in just two hours, the word ghost will be the last thing on their mind.  

The Bible teaches us there are dark spirits that inhabit the earth, as they were the offspring of Satan which rules this earth.(Fall of Man)  And the Bible in the NT, also teaches us *how* to overpower the influence of these dark spirits. As they tempt the soul/spirit within us that we were born with, to sin and to do wrong. All while we have to make a consious choice while using our own free will, to either do what is right or what is wrong. And in some people, to make the choice of doing pure evil. 

And the *how* we humans can keep the dark spirits from influencing our lives, is to be saved by Christ. Because once a person has the power of Christ's pure Spirit in their life, the dark spirits will have no power over them. Therefore, this is why that for one to live a Christian life doing so will not only make their lives better, but when their body dies and their soul/spirit is released, it will go back to the kingdom of God. But wait, if something goes back, this indicates it has been there before. Hmmm..

So where does one surmise their soul/spirit came from, Satan ? I have known people I thought their soul was a spawn of Satan. I believe and it is of my opinion that our soul/spirit came from God, our Creator. 

But everything I have posted so far reads just like any pamphlet handed out from a church member after Sunday services. It is no wonder that the higher educated and logistical minded people will never be convinced of the supernatural realm, God/Christ and the tenets of religious practices. And one does not have to look really hard, to see that our last two generations of people on the streets today, are proof of the aforementioned.

As the religious teachings do not allow ANY space or void to interject the knowledge that our great scientist's have acquired over time, while they can PROVE what they have learned. And their proof, contradicts some of the Bible's teachings. But why are we humans so stubborn, that we think we can pick only believe one source, either the Bible or science? That, we HAVE to pick one or the other to believe when we study about the creation of man, beasts, the earth, the universe, on and on? Why can we not pick both to learn from and state our opinions, without being ostracized by either the religious or the scientific world  ?

Because if we say that we believe the scientists when their position contradicts the Bible, then we are deemed to be not *true believers*. If we say that we are believers and poohoo the scientist's beliefs, the science followers will say we our " Spagetti Monsters in the Sky" loons. 

Why can we not have both realms of our beliefs, the religious and the scientific to "ping" off of each other in such a way, that will give us more "answers" to both sides of the debate ?

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## gregonejeep

I do not want to, NOR do I even have the intellectual capabilities to get in to the very volatile debate with anyone, about Evolution vs. Creation. A person can just type these two words in to their search bar, and they will get a LOT of hits to read the discussions of the topic on the internet forums. 

If one wants to read the historical timeline of the earth and its creatures from a evolutionist's perspective, they can read a LOT of scientific data given in this article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth  I personally do not have the knowledge to dispute anything in the article, but will say that I concur with most of it.  UNTIL, it came to stating how that the human being was created.

One can readily see even if they do not trust the articles from Wikipedia, the article linked has a LOT of truth posted in it. How would I know this ? Because scientist's, geologist's and archaeologist's could show their "proof" of their data they had compiled. They found fossils, and the artifacts of long gone civilizations. The geologists drilled DEEP core samples from various locations all over, that PROVED the "time stamp" of the many centuries of life forms, that had lived in that era of layers of soil. And a some of these scientific findings, contradict some of what the Holy Bible teaches us.  

Does this mean the evolutionist's win the debate against the believers, that believe in Creation?  The same person that believes that God created all things on earth and in the universe. And that to the believer, the Holy Bible's Scriptures are divine and infallible. But just like the evolutionist's, their science will not give up any notable ground to the believers. Neither will the believers, give up any notable ground from their Biblical teachings. 

And this thread is just a small example of the aforementioned. As I posted about my beliefs that man has a soul/spirit and that spirit's inhabit the earth, a poster replies to my testimonies "inferring" that I was being deceived by Satanic or dark "spirits". The poster had NO allowance for at least the possibility, that a "good" spirit could have helped me during my "spiritual enlightenment" event, that happened to me in 1981. 

In my KJV Holy Bible, the word *soul* is written 498 times. And the word *spirit* is written 523 times. Here is just ONE of the times the word spirit is used in my KJV Bible...When Jesus was at the well in Samaria. And there was a woman at the well getting water. And she asked Jesus, was he a Prophet. One of the verses of His reply to her follows...
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth. 

And here is the Apostle Paul while writing to the saints at the church of God in Corinth...

1 Corinthians 1:19...that no flesh shall glory in his presence (God).
 
1 Corinthians 15:45.. and so it, the first Adam was made a living *soul* the last Adam was made a *quickening spirit*. 

1 Corinthians 15:46... Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but not natural, and afterward that which is *spiritual*.

My Merriam/Webster's Dictionary defines...

*Spirit*... 1. an animating or vital principal held to give life to physical organisms.
            2. a supernatural being or essence
              a : Holy Spirit 
              b: Soul 
              c: an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can make itself visible, GHOST
              d: Temper or disposition of mind especially vigorous or animated: 

*Quickened (ing)* ..to make alive, revive, to cause to be enlivened. 

*Spiritual*.. of, relating to, or affecting the spirit :INCORPOREAL < having no material body

After I read the above Scriptures, they reaffirmed what that I mentioned earlier which is.. 

IMO, man has a soul in them that was incarnated in to him, from God. But the soul FIRST, was a spirit that was created by God. And that once the fleshly body dies, it is released from the deceased body and the soul, becomes a spirit again. And that, this soul/spirit within us, is how that believers communicate with God/Christ in their prayers.   

Whoa...the above reads like that GOJ has become an avid student of Satanism and witchcraft. But is what that I wrote, THAT much different than what the Bibles teaches us ? If one reads 1 Corinthians 15:45 what is it saying ?  

Am I to understand that the first man Adam was the ONLY man to have a soul ? If this is true, why does Jesus teach about one's soul being "damned", if only Adam was to have a soul ? I take the Scripture as meaning that all of Adam's descendant's will have a soul/spirit. Which means IMO, that all men that have lived and died, and all that are going to be born in our future that will live and die, will have a soul/spirit. 

But why is all the above even worthy of a person to read, or even to think about? Especially in these modern times, when we educated humans do NOT have to believe in such things as souls/spirits or even the Bible's teachings. Because when one does read the Scriptures for the first time, most will lay the Bible down and not pick it up again. Because the Scriptures just do not make any sense at all to them, at that time.

 I do wonder though, how many people reading this thread while moving and wanting to decrease the size of their belongings to box up, have thrown the Holy Bible they never read anyway...in to the trash? I have never witnessed anyone doing so, in my now 60 years of being around people. 

Why would a person keep a book around just to have to store away on a shelf in their home/apartment, that does not make ANY sense at all to them ?

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## gregonejeep

It is no wonder the topics of both the supernatural and religion are so "volatile". Because one person is trying to get another person(s) to understand their position on the topic. And they cannot reach in to their brief case and pull out any material "proof" to substantiate their claims. 

The only proof the Christian has, is what their Holy Bible Scripture's state on the matter. And the person that is trying to prove their belief or "experience" that fits in to the Realm of the Supernatural, they will not even have a book to present as their evidence. And if they do pick out any of the many books written on the supernatural/afterlife etc., that book's author faces the same 'credibility" issue.

I do fairly well determining the validity of anyone's "story" by using deductive reasoning and my common sense. But when a person is discussing religion or supernatural events, the wheels of what is provable "truth" get really wobbly in the debate. 

A person can read or hear the words from the person making their position known. But as one reads or listens to the person's claim being made, their "mind's eye" cannot "see" what they are being told. And while the listener/reader uses their logic, what they are reading or listening to just does not ring true for them.   

With religion, the person that "believes" or that is a practicing Christian also faces some credibility issues. As they base their faith on what they have learned while reading (or have been preached to) the Scripture's in their Holy Bible.

 If one reads the Scriptures in the Holy Bible as a "newbie", they are going to get a similar reaction much like the person will get after reading my posts, about my supernatural events. As many of the Scripture's will baffle the reader, as they are beyond ones "logistical" thinking limits, and some may even surpass ones powers of reasoning.

There is a HUGE difference though, for the person reading GOJ's "ghost" stories, and one reading the Holy Bible. My SE testimonies can be taken as humor if one really wants to, but the Words in the Scriptures in the Bible ?

 No, the Scripture's should not be taken as humor and no one can change their words, to suit themselves.  But knowing this, does not change the fact that many Scriptures will not make any sense at all to the new reader. Or sometimes, even to the well seasoned Bible reader. 

As many of the Scriptures were written using allegories and parables and not all of them, cannot be taken by the reader too literally. As Christ and his disciples/Apostles were trying to explain their teachings to people that were not capable in those times, of understanding such "elevated" information.

And the people that translated the original Hebrew in to the many translations of the Bibles we have today, may have used just one word or number erroneously, that changed the context of the whole sentence. 

IE: The Creation. As it was written in the Book of  Genesis, was all done by God in just *6 days* and He rested on the 7th day.  The reader knows better, but not too many Christians are willing to discuss some of the Scriptures true meaning. As to them, for one to question ANY of the Scripture's validity, is to question God's written Word.

And for one to do so, they are committing blasphemy and heresy, they may say.   But are they really ?

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Jen (06-17-2020)

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## Jen

> It is no wonder the topics of both the supernatural and religion are so "volatile". Because one person is trying to get another person(s) to understand their position on the topic. And they cannot reach in to their brief case and pull out any material "proof" to substantiate their claims. 
> 
> The only proof the Christian has, is what their Holy Bible Scripture's state on the matter. And the person that is trying to prove their belief or "experience" that fits in to the Realm of the Supernatural, they will not even have a book to present as their evidence. And if they do pick out any of the many books written on the supernatural/afterlife etc., that book's author faces the same 'credibility" issue.
> 
> I do fairly well determining the validity of anyone's "story" by using deductive reasoning and my common sense. But when a person is discussing religion or supernatural events, the wheels of what is provable "truth" get really wobbly in the debate. 
> 
> A person can read or hear the words from the person making their position known. But as one reads or listens to the person's claim being made, their "mind's eye" cannot "see" what they are being told. And while the listener/reader uses their logic, what they are reading or listening to just does not ring true for them.   
> 
> With religion, the person that "believes" or that is a practicing Christian also faces some credibility issues. As they base their faith on what they have learned while reading (or have been preached to) the Scripture's in their Holy Bible.
> ...


I have come to one conclusion.  Some will be lost not because no one has tried to save them but because they refuse to believe.  I have done my best throughout my life to live the example....  and to spread the good news that death need not be the end.  That's all I can do.  If someone refuses it, then it's on them.   :Dontknow:

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## gregonejeep

> I have come to one conclusion.  Some will be lost not because no one has tried to save them but because they refuse to believe.  I have done my best throughout my life to live the example....  and to spread the good news that death need not be the end.  That's all I can do.  If someone refuses it, then it's on them.


If we are to take the Scripture's literally, then for the person that is not "saved" their soul will "die".  Now to a lot of people, this is not a punishment, but a relief. Think about the rapist's, child molester's , serial killers, madmen dictator's that have had millions of people killed in their wars. They are going to like that when their body dies, then their soul will die. Nice ending for horrible people. 

I for one, do not believe^^^ that it works this way. What say you ?

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Jen (06-17-2020)

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## Jen

> If we are to take the Scripture's literally, then for the person that is not "saved" their soul will "die".  Now to a lot of people, this is not a punishment, but a relief. Think about the rapist's, child molester's , serial killers, madmen dictator's that have had millions of people killed in their wars. They are going to like that when their body dies, then their soul will die. Nice ending for horrible people. 
> 
> I for one, do not believe^^^ that it works this way. What say you ?


I believe our Soul is eternal.

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East of the Beast (06-17-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> I believe our Soul is eternal.


You are correct in your thinking. So in your opinion when ones physical body dies, what happens to their soul when it is released ?

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East of the Beast (06-17-2020)

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## Jen

> You are correct in your thinking. So in your opinion when ones physical body dies, what happens to their soul when it is released ?


It goes with Jesus, angels , family...........to heaven.  Or that Soul goes to Hell.

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## gregonejeep

> It goes with Jesus, angels , family...........to heaven.  Or that Soul goes to Hell.



O.K. The above indicates to me at least, there has to be a "judgment" tendered on each soul that leaves the earth within a set time frame, to get the soul in its rightful place in the hereafter. 

 How in your opinion would this happen, and what deity or entity, does the judging ? ?

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## Jen

> O.K. The above indicates to me at least, there has to be a "judgment" tendered on each soul that leaves the earth within a set time frame, to get the soul in its rightful place in the hereafter. 
> 
>  How in your opinion would this happen, and what deity or entity, does the judging ? ?


God is judge.  Jesus intercedes for Christians.  When God judges non-Christians, Jesus is not there.................  because they didn't believe Jesus would be, so he's not.  There is no one to say that the person was "good"  or anything..........  God doesn't recognize that person, so that person's Soul goes to a place across a great chasm from Heaven........a place where God does not exist.  That place is worse than some of the awfulness that goes on here and now because that's where some of those same people will be........

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## gregonejeep

> God is judge.  Jesus intercedes for Christians.  When God judges non-Christians, Jesus is not there.................  because they didn't believe Jesus would be, so he's not.  There is no one to say that the person was "good"  or anything..........  God doesn't recognize that person, so that person's Soul goes to a place across a great chasm from Heaven........a place where God does not exist.  That place is worse than some of the awfulness that goes on here and now because that's where some of those same people will be........



What am I to make of 

John 5:22  …...for the father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

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## Jen

> What am I to make of 
> 
> John 5:22  …...for the father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.


Maybe I was wrong and it's the Son who judges........but the blood of Jesus was sacrificed for our sins so we are perfect and free of sin when we enter Heaven.

Seems like you are trying to back me into some corner......  I am not a Bible scholar.

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## gregonejeep

> Maybe I was wrong and it's the Son who judges........but the blood of Jesus was sacrificed for our sins so we are perfect and free of sin when we enter Heaven.
> 
> Seems like you are trying to back me into some corner......  I am not a Bible scholar.



No way Jen, I would do that to you, as I am just learning too.  I have been studying some eastern beliefs and I must say, I am just confusing myself. Because they are making a LOT of sense to...

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## Jen

> No way Jen, I would do that to you, as I am just learning too.  I have been studying some eastern beliefs and I must say, I am just confusing myself. Because they are making a LOT of sense to...


There is a lot we can learn from some of the Eastern beliefs:  remaining calm in the face of adversity, spreading love rather than hate or chaos.  But there is only one way to Eternal Life and that is through Jesus.  The message of Jesus is love.  It is just that simple.  Believe in Jesus and love other people as you love yourself (and don't forget to love yourself in the process).

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gregonejeep (06-17-2020)

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## gregonejeep

> There is a lot we can learn from some of the Eastern beliefs:  remaining calm in the face of adversity, spreading love rather than hate or chaos.  But there is only one way to Eternal Life and that is through Jesus.  The message of Jesus is love.  It is just that simple.  Believe in Jesus and love other people as you love yourself (and don't forget to love yourself in the process).


Same here, I believe in Christ and have since 1981. I have had two brothers and a sister pass since 2013 and somehow I keep getting on the "what happens to the soul after ones death" study trail.  Which I know as long as we believe in Christ and obey the TEN C's and live by the Golden Rule...one should not think about what happens after death. My one brother was saved at 13 years old, but boy, oh boy, he did not live a Christian life for the following 52 years. But he was a good hearted soul and should be in a good place now. Thanks for the replies Jen...Good Evening, bye.

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Jen (06-17-2020)

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## Jen

> Same here, I believe in Christ and have since 1981. I have had two brothers and a sister pass since 2013 and somehow I keep getting on the "what happens to the soul after ones death" study trail.  Which I know as long as we believe in Christ and obey the TEN C's and live by the Golden Rule...one should not think about what happens after death. My one brother was saved at 13 years old, but boy, oh boy, he did not live a Christian life for the following 52 years. But he was a good hearted soul and should be in a good place now. Thanks for the replies Jen...Good Evening, bye.


We live to learn, @gregonejeep.  Thanks for the conversation.

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## gregonejeep

Whether one believes in the Realm of the Supernatural or not, it really does not matter. Because after we breathe our last breath, both the believers and the non-believers will get their answer. And whether we choose to study our Bibles or not, we all have to live and die while not knowing 100% for sure, why we human beings were created. Nor, can we be 100% sure of what will happen to our soul after our death. 

And even more so when we get on the topics of religion or the afterlife, the often asked question will come up in the mix... 

"Why do the people with "dark or evil souls " among us, seemingly get to live long lives ? While way too often, the people with a "good soul" are taken away from us way too soon?  Another question I suppose that will be answered for us, when we are no longer in our flesh and blood corporeal bodies, but in our "spiritual" bodies. 

Very sad times right now and for a long time coming, for our states Senator Andy Barr. The unexpected and shocking death of his lovely 39 year old wife that happened a few days ago. Another truly good life and soul, and a mother of two young daughters that has been taken away, way too soon.    

https://www.lex18.com/news/covering-...been-announced

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## gregonejeep

When a person is thinking about the very difficult question "Who is God"??, the Old Testament in the Holy Bible is where one will find the most mentions of God. And as a person reads the many mentions of God in the OT, they will find that God was actually interacting with His "chosen" people on earth at the time. And the people that were against Him or were incorrigible in sin...God punished His adversaries Himself. 

And as one reads the OT, they will see how the people in the OT described God in different ways. 

KJV Deut 4:24...For the Lord God is a consuming fire, even a* jealous* God

KJV 1 Samuel 16:14... But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an* evil spirit from the Lord* troubled him.

KJV 1 Samuel 16:15...And Saul's servants said unto him,. Behold now, an* evil spirit from God* troubleth thee.

KJV 1 Samuel 16:16 … Let our Lord now command our servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on a harp, it shall come to pass when the* evil spirit from God* is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well


KJV Nahum 1:2 ..God is *jealous*. and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth and is furious: the Lord will take vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserveth wrath for His enemies. 

KJV Genesis 19:26... But his wife looked back from behind Him, she became a pillar of salt. (destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah )



And God is mentioned also in the New Testament many times, but I will just post two Scripture's that are the most pertinent IMO, for the newbie Bible reader. 

KJV John 4:24...*God is a Spirit*: and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Romans 6:23... For the wages of sin is death: but the Gift of God is *eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

*I know that according to the pastors I have spoken to and that also, there is a Scripture that states the words of the Scriptures are infallible and not one word of them, shall be changed.  And I have found this to be true.  But I am perplexed though, of the words written in Samuel 16:14,15 and 16 that mentions *"evil spirit of God is upon thee*" ….

God is the highest and most pure Spirit in the whole universe. Therefore IMO, there is NO way that a *evil spirit* came from God. So what is one to surmise from these words in KJV Samuel 16:14,15,16 ? 

 Can or would God do this ??

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> I know that according to the pastors I have spoken to and that also, there is a Scripture that states the words of the Scriptures are infallible and not one word of them, shall be changed.  And I have found this to be true.  But I am perplexed though, of the words written in Samuel 16:14,15 and 16 that mentions *"evil spirit of God is upon thee*" ….
> 
> God is the highest and most pure Spirit in the whole universe. Therefore IMO, there is NO way that a *evil spirit* came from God. So what is one to surmise from these words in KJV Samuel 16:14,15,16 ? Can or would God do this ??


No, he would not...

What does the scripture at 1 Sam. 18:10 mean when it says that “God’s bad spirit became operative upon Saul, so that he behaved like a prophet within the house”?

In 1 Sam. 16:14 we are informed that “the very spirit of God departed from Saul, and a bad spirit from God terrorized him.” In this we can see an application of the principle indicated by Jesus at Matt. 12:43-45, namely, that if the mind and life are not filled with God's spirit, then they are open to invasion of demon spirits. It is not that God actually sent an evil spirit to terrorize Saul, but by *removing* his holy spirit from the disobedient king a vacancy was left, a vacancy that was promptly filled by a bad spirit or mental inclination. Since God made the evilly inclined possession possible by the removal of his holy spirit, God is referred to as the source of the evil spirit.

Just how this bad spirit impelled Saul to act or behave like a prophet is not precisely stated in the account. However, it is quite likely that he “was filled with prophetic frenzy,” as one translation renders the words (AT). Others render the words “behaved like a prophet”simply as “raved,” and concerning this the ***'Soncino' version states: “he-raved. lit. ‘played the prophet,’displaying the manifestations of physical excitement which were associated with the ecstatic frenzies of the prophetic bands.”


It is quite likely that in this particular instance, since music was being played and since some prophets prophesied when music was being played, the frenzy was badly directed, which it would not have been if Saul had been under the influence of a good spirit from God. (2 Kings 3:14-15; 1 Sam. 10:5-13) This is what we could expect in view of what the record goes on to say: “He behaved like a prophet within the house, while David was playing music with his hand, as in former days; and the spear was in Saul’s hand. And Saul proceeded to hurl the spear and say: ‘I will pin David even to the wall!’” Certainly such an action evinced a greatly disturbed state of mind.-1 Sam. 18:10-11.

***The Soncino Books of the Bible is a set of Hebrew Bible commentaries (in English), covering the whole Tanakh (OT) in fourteen volumes.

<@Jen>

----------


## gregonejeep

> No, he would not...
> 
> What does the scripture at 1 Sam. 18:10 mean when it says that “God’s bad spirit became operative upon Saul, so that he behaved like a prophet within the house”?
> 
> In 1 Sam. 16:14 we are informed that “the very spirit of God departed from Saul, and a bad spirit from God terrorized him.” In this we can see an application of the principle indicated by Jesus at Matt. 12:43-45, namely, that if the mind and life are not filled with God's spirit, then they are open to invasion of demon spirits. It is not that God actually sent an evil spirit to terrorize Saul, but by *removing* his holy spirit from the disobedient king a vacancy was left, a vacancy that was promptly filled by a bad spirit or mental inclination. Since God made the evilly inclined possession possible by the removal of his holy spirit, God is referred to as the source of the evil spirit.
> 
> Just how this bad spirit impelled Saul to act or behave like a prophet is not precisely stated in the account. However, it is quite likely that he “was filled with prophetic frenzy,” as one translation renders the words (AT). Others render the words “behaved like a prophet”simply as “raved,” and concerning this the ***'Soncino' version states: “he-raved. lit. ‘played the prophet,’displaying the manifestations of physical excitement which were associated with the ecstatic frenzies of the prophetic bands.”
> 
> 
> ...


Just a FYI, I just checked again and I did not make any grammatical errors when I* typed* out the Scripture's from 1 Samuel JUST as they read from my KJV (King James Version) Bible. Below I have copied them in blue..

KJV 1 Samuel 16:14... But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an *evil spirit from the Lord* *troubled him.
**
*KJV 1 Samuel 16:15...And Saul's servants said unto him,. Behold now, *an* *evil spirit from God* *troubleth thee.
*
KJV 1 Samuel 16:16 … Let our Lord now command our servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on a harp, it shall come to pass when the* evil spirit from God* is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well
One can readily see in SNAFU's 1 Samuel Scriptures that he posted above, they *do not MATCH word for word*, my KJV Scriptures that I typed.

And I am certainly not a Biblical scholar, but just one learning. And if a person has to alter the words or change the "action" of a Scripture to make (it) them read different, what is their reasoning for doing so?


I for one, will NOT alter any words in the Scriptures that I type out here on TPF. (other than to bold or color them for accent) And I try to always put KJV before the Scriptures I post. 

As doing so, it is only fair to the readers to KNOW what source of information it is that I am using. Just so they can look it up themselves to check on my source. And my KJV Bible is the ONLY source that I will post Scriptures from to use on TPF.

 And I am not going to dig around all over the internet, to find "alternate" meanings for the Scriptures that I post from my KJV Bible. To do so, is to me like moving the goal posts mid-kick.

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> Just a FYI, I just checked again and I did not make any grammatical errors when I* typed* out the Scripture's from 1 Samuel JUST as they read from my KJV (King James Version) Bible. Below I have copied them in blue..
> 
> KJV 1 Samuel 16:14... But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an *evil spirit from the Lord* *troubled him.
> **
> *KJV 1 Samuel 16:15...And Saul's servants said unto him,. Behold now, *an* *evil spirit from God* *troubleth thee.
> *
> KJV 1 Samuel 16:16 … Let our Lord now command our servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on a harp, it shall come to pass when the* evil spirit from God* is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well
> One can readily see in SNAFU's 1 Samuel Scriptures that he posted above, they *do not MATCH word for word*, my KJV Scriptures that I typed.
> 
> ...


Then that could be problematic for you; there are Later versions that are equally as good, or even better for a variety of reasons than the 1611 kjv Bible.  Many think that the it's the first English translation from the original Biblical language of Aramaic and Koin Greek, which it is not.  However, it is the most popular because of it's literary beauty in archaic English.   

I have a number Bibles that lend a lot to the understanding God's word; such as 'interlinear' (word for word) translations of Hebrew and Greek Scriptures.

*<@Jen>*

----------


## gregonejeep

> Then that could be problematic for you; there are Later versions that are equally as good, or even better for a variety of reasons than the 1611 kjv Bible.  Many think that the it's the first English translation from the original Biblical language of Aramaic and Koin Greek, which it is not.  However, it is the most popular because of it's literary beauty in archaic English.   
> 
> I have a number Bibles that lend a lot to the understanding God's word; such as 'interlinear' (word for word) translations of Aramaic and Greek Scriptures.
> 
> *<@Jen>*


Not problematic for me because as a "newbie" I was reading my old KJV Bible when I had my "enlightenment" experience per post #25 of this thread. I do not care to read a Bible that its version of the Scriptures reads as easy, as a story in Readers Digest reads. As to me, changing the verbiage in a Scripture just to make them "easier" to read, demeans the Scriptures "power" in its words. 

And IMO, for the newbie Bible reader to "pick" through the many diverse translations of the Bibles sold today, just to see which one gives them the "easiest/correct" answer ? Would to me, be akin to ...

Where there is 1st year math teacher that has 6 different math books sitting on his desk. And he is using all 6 of them to teach his 1st year math class, and to make up his tests for his students.

For the student that has already mastered mathematics from their many years of study, the above is a great way to teach a math class. As the student will see there are MANY ways or methods, to get the answer to a math question. 

But for the student in their first year class of math, with them being taught math from 6 different math books, will only serve to confuse the student.  Because the student does not have within their minds yet, the mathematical knowledge to "pick" from the various ways to solve the math question, that has been presented to them.

And as any reader knows, it just takes ONE letter in a word in a sentence to change the whole meaning of a sentence. Little less, a whole word being changed in the sentence of a Scripture. 

 IE: " He said that my car *w*ould be ready to pick up from the garage tomorrow". 
 IE: " He said that my car *c*ould be ready to pick up from the garage tomorrow".

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> Not problematic for me because as a "newbie" I was reading my old KJV Bible when I had my "enlightenment" experience per post #25 of this thread. I do not care to read a Bible that its version of the Scriptures reads as easy, as a story in Readers Digest reads. As to me, changing the verbiage in a Scripture just to make them "easier" to read, demeans the Scriptures "power" in its words. 
> 
> And IMO, for the newbie Bible reader to "pick" through the many diverse translations of the Bibles sold today, just to see which one gives them the "easiest/correct" answer ? Would to me, be akin to ...
> 
> Where there is 1st year math teacher that has 6 different math books sitting on his desk. And he is using all 6 of them to teach his 1st year math class, and to make up his tests for his students.
> 
> For the student that has already mastered mathematics from their many years of study, the above is a great way to teach a math class. As the student will see there are MANY ways or methods, to get the answer to a math question. 
> 
> But for the student in their first year class of math, with them being taught math from 6 different math books, will only serve to confuse the student.  Because the student does not have within their minds yet, the mathematical knowledge to "pick" from the various ways to solve the math question, that has been presented to them.
> ...



Unlike using Mathematics as an illustration, the TRUE understanding of God's words is withheld from many...

"Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not practice deceit, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by open proclamation of the truth, we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god [Satan] of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ~ 2 Cor. 4:2-4 

"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from wise and intelligent people and have revealed them to infants." ~ Matt. 11:25 

Having said that...

WHY should there be modern Bible translations? Are not the old ones, such as the King James and the Douay versions, good enough? They are good, no doubt, and have helped countless numbers to have faith in God and in his Word, the Bible. But could there be better translations?

Yes, there could be, and there are better translations of the Bible than the King James and Douay versions, and that for a number of reasons. As stated previously, it would be difficult to find an English translation of more literary beauty than the KJV Yet, as has been well noted: “The first duty of a translator is to convey as clearly as he can what the original author wrote. He should not try to inject a rhetorical quality . . . which belong[s] more truly to the first Elizabethan age in England than to the Hebrew originals. . . . It would certainly be dangerous to give the form of the translation precedence over the meaning.”

One reason why modern translations may be better than such old ones as the King James of 1611 is that the English language itself has changed over the years. For example, to “let” used to mean to “hinder.” Today the meaning usually attached to the expression is just the opposite, to “permit.” (2 Thess. 2:7) Likewise, to “prevent” used to mean to “go before” or to “precede.” Today it means to “keep from happening.” (1 Thess. 4:15) “Conversation” used to mean “conduct.” Today it most often refers to talking with another. (Phil. 1:27) And for most persons today “shambles” does not refer to a “meat market,” as it used to, but to a “scene of destruction.”—1 Cor. 10:25.

The progress made in understanding the Greek in which the Christian Scriptures were written has also made possible better translations. Ancient papyrus writings, such as the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' have been found that showed the everyday use of certain words not well understood. Thus “Raca” was simply thought to mean “a vain fellow,” but that did not fit in with the severe condemnation of its use by Jesus.: (Matt. 5:22, AV margin) Now, however, because of the discovery of a papyrus letter, scholar _E. Goodspeed_ has said that “Raca” was a foul name “which one sometimes heard on the lips of foul-mouthed people but never saw in print.

Another example is that of the verb apeʹkho, translated “have” in older translations, but which means “to have in full,” being used “as a technical expression in drawing up a receipt,” *as stated in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.* So Jesus, in condemning those who hypocritically make a showing of their charity, said that they “are having their reward in full.” That is absolutely all they will ever get, the praise of men, which was just what they wanted.—Matt. 6:2.

Modern translations often clarify the sense of figures of speech used by the Hebrews or Greeks but with which we may not be familiar. Thus1 Peter 1:13 (AV) reads “gird up the loins of your mind.” Far more understandable to modern-day readers, however, is the rendering, “brace up your minds for activity.”—NW.

Especially helpful in improving translations of the Bible has been the finding of older manuscripts. At the time of the translation of the King James Version only a few Greek manuscripts were available and these were of rather late origin. But since then many fine vellum manuscripts of the collected Scriptures have come to light, some going back as far as the fourth century of our Common Era. Also papyrus manuscripts and fragments have been uncovered that date back to the third and even the second centuries C.E. Usually, the older the copy, the less likely it is to have suffered changes from copying.

And not to be overlooked is the factor of an improved understanding of God’s Word. This has come about even as foretold. “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” (Prov. 4:18) The better God’s purposes are understood, the more accurately the Word of God can be translated.

Yes, accuracy is paramount...  

Regarding the translator of the Bible into English, it has well been said that his chief responsibility is to render the Biblical meaning as accurately as possible into appropriate English.

This is a position that hardly can be argued against, and yet comparatively few translators have acted in accord with it in regard to the distinctive name of God, Jehovah. In the Hebrew Scriptures this is represented by the Tetragrammaton, that is, the “four-letter word” YHWH. There is no question as to its importance, for not only does it occur more than 6,900 times, but the Creator is referred to by it more than by all other designations used in those Scriptures.

The importance of God having a name, the name Jehovah was highlighted in the Preface to the American Standard Version, 1901, which, among other things, stated: “This Memorial Name, explained in Ex. iii. 14, 15, and emphasized as such over and over in the original text of the Old Testament, designates God as the personal God, . . . the Friend of his people; . . . the ever living Helper . . . This personal name, with its wealth of sacred associations, is now restored to the place in the sacred text to which it has an unquestionable claim.”

Though stated almost seventy years ago, its position is affirmed by one of the latest scholarly translations, *The Jerusalem Bible*. Although many of its footnotes savor of higher criticism, this translation restores God’s name to its rightful place, but preferring the form *“Yahweh.”* The Editor’s Foreword states, among other things: “It is not without hesitation that this accurate form has been used, and no doubt those who may care to use this translation of the Psalms can substitute the traditional ‘the Lord’. On the other hand, this would be to lose much of the flavour and meaning of the originals. For example, to say ‘The Lord is God’ is surely a tautology [needless repetition or redundancy], as to say ‘Yahweh is God’ is not.”

Of all the many modern translations of the Bible into English, few indeed are accurate in this matter. Among those few are *Rotherham’s Emphasised Bible*, which translation also uses the form “Yahweh,” and _Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible,_ the _American Standard Version_, which use the form “Jehovah.”

While the virtue of consistency cannot be pressed too far in the matter of Bible translation, it does appear that many translations do not give enough thought to this factor or let their religious prejudices interfere. As has been well observed, “There must be consistency in the translation of technical words with a rather sharply fixed content of meaning, not allowing translation to blur the distinctions carried by different words in the original. In the New Testament there is a distinction between ‘Hades’ and ‘Gehenna’. The former is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew ‘Sheol,’ the world of the dead; the latter is the final place of punishment for the wicked._”--Why So Many Bibles, American Bible Society.
_
However, some translations, such as Today’s English Version, _The New Testament in the Language of Today (by W.F. Beck),_ and that by Monsignor Knox are doubly inconsistent in that they use more than one English word to translate Haiʹdes, one of these being “hell”; and they translate both Geʹenna and Haiʹdes by the English word “hell.” Among those that are consistent in this matter are the _American Standard Version and the NWT_—Matt. 5:22; 10:28; 11:23; 16:18.

Lack of consistency is also shown on the part of many translators in failing to distinguish between douʹlos, meaning a purchased slave, and diaʹkonos,meaning servant or minister. In the Scriptures Christians are referred to as slaves because they have been bought with a price; so they are slaves to Jehovah God and Jesus Christ their Masters. They are not mere hired servants, free to quit whenever they please. Apparently many translators do not like the sound of the word “slave,” but Bible writers had a reason for using it instead of “servant.” Among the few that are consistent in this regard are_ C. B. Williams’ New Testament and the NWT.—Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 7:23.
_
The foregoing are but a few of the many examples that could be cited to show how Bible translators at times are inconsistent. They also show the value of consistency if the reader is to get the sense of what was originally written.



Bible translation is by no means easy. In ever so many instances the merits of a certain rendering are relative. By that is meant that the evidence is not unequivocal. Thus a goodly number of the oldest and best manuscripts may read a certain way, while a lesser number, but still highly regarded manuscripts, read another way.

However, at times translators betray unfaithfulness to the original text. For example, the _Catholic Confraternity version_ has Jesus asking his mother, at the time of the wedding feast in Cana, “What wouldst thou have me do, woman?” This is just the opposite of the way _Roman Catholic Monsignor Knox renders the text:_ “Nay, woman, why dost thou trouble me with that?” Obviously the Confraternity let religious bias influence its rendering.—John 2:4.

Concerning the Bible translator Phillips we are told that he disregards “the first, second and last rule of the translator: that he be faithful to the original. Why is it necessary, for example, for him to translate in Luke 24:49, ‘Now I hand over to you the [command] of [my] Father,’ when the clear meaning of the text is, ‘And I myself will send upon you what my Father has promised’? The reference to the future coming of the Lord in 2 Timothy 4:8 ‘to all who have loved his appearing’ is lost in ‘to all [those] who have loved what they have seen of him.’” Then after listing other examples, this criticism goes on to say: “Other examples could be cited, but these are sufficient.”—_Why So Many Bibles._

Another modern translation that can be charged with a lack of faithfulness to the original is _Moffatt’s New Translation of the Bible_. Time and again he arranges chapters and verses in a way to suit himself in both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Greek Scriptures. Particularly is what he does with the book of Isaiah open to censure, rearranging the chapters and verses to suit himself. _The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah_, going back, as it does, about a thousand years earlier than the accepted Masoretic text, leaves Dr. Moffatt without any justification whatever for such rearranging of Isaiah. This makes it difficult to find certain Bible texts.

At times the conscientious translator may feel justified in adding a word or two to make the meaning clear. However, there is always the danger, when this is done, of misleading the reader. Thus in an attempt to aid the reader the translator of Today’s English Version replaced “he” with “Christ” at 1 John 3:2. However, in this he erred, for Jehovah God and not Jesus Christ is here referred to, even as is clear from the preceding verse 1 John 3:1. Likewise at 1 Timothy 6:15, he added “God” to the text and so misleads the reader since the apostle was speaking about Christ’s being the “happy and only Potentate . . . the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords.”—Compare 1Ti 6 verse 14.

Where done in keeping with the context and free from religious bias, such renderings can be very helpful. Thus Matthew 26:26 (NW) reads, “This means my body,” for this is obviously what Jesus meant, since he still had his own body and so the bread could not literally have been his body. Likewise when koimaʹomai, a word used to refer to sleeping, is used to refer to death,

This same translation is also quite helpful when rendering the word kyʹrios,which means “lord” or “master.” Whenever the context indicates that Jehovah God is referred to, it will render kyʹrios as “Jehovah.” Is this too radical? No, for in every instance except one such is also found to be the way a number of Hebrew versions have rendered kyʹrios. (Matt. 1:20, 22) Especially is the name Jehovah fitting in the Christian Greek Scriptures when these quote from the Hebrew Scriptures where “Jehovah” is used.—Matt. 3:3; 4:7, 10.

Today the English Bible student has many modern translations from which to choose. By far the greater number, however, consist of only the Christian Greek Scriptures. Some of these translations have become quite popular by reason of their smooth flow of language and many apt turns of speech or felicitous expressions. However, as seen from the above examples, these are prone to err by taking too many liberties, because of misunderstanding or due to religious bias. Since accuracy and dependability are the most important requirements of a modern Bible translation it would seem that a largely literal translation is to be preferred, especially by readers who have faith that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.


_“I have yet to see a piece of writing, political or non-political, that does not have a slant. All writing slants the way a writer leans, and no man is born perpendicular.”  E.B White_

----------


## gregonejeep

Good grief, really snafu ?  All of the above post just because you SNAFU, did not like the "translation" of my KJV Bible verses below ? If ones Bible of choice reads like the simple instructions for putting a IKEA bookcase together, how "divine" will the Scriptures be to the reader?  

The journeyman ALWAYS has to be better at his trade, than his apprentice. If not, the apprentice will not learn the difference between a mediocre job done by his hands, and a great job done by his hands.

KJV 1 Samuel 16:14... But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an *evil spirit from the Lord* *troubled him.
**

KJV 1 Samuel 16:15...And Saul's servants said unto him,. Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.



**KJV 1 Samuel 16:16 … Let our Lord now command our servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on a harp, it shall come to pass when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well

*

----------

S-N-A-F-U (06-28-2020)

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

Golly-Gee,
You seem to have forgotten the dilemma you were in over your following post (where it all started).  I put an answer forth, that this translation was in error by my following post *#110.*  And I further elaborated that there were later translations that are available that were equal,  if not better.  :Geez: 





> I know that according to the pastors I have spoken to and that also, there is a Scripture that states the words of the Scriptures are infallible and not one word of them, shall be changed.  And I have found this to be true.





> *But I am perplexed though, of the words written in Samuel 16:14,15 and 16 that mentions "evil spirit of God is upon thee" ….*
> 
> *God is the highest and most pure Spirit in the whole universe. Therefore IMO, there is NO way that a evil spirit came from God. So what is one to surmise from these words in KJV* Samuel 16:14,15,16 ? *Can or would God do this ??*


(my emphasis)

And my answer to the latter, Was of course not!

----------


## gregonejeep

> No, he would not...
> 
> What does the scripture at 1 Sam. 18:10 mean when it says that Gods bad spirit became operative upon Saul, so that he behaved like a prophet within the house?
> 
> In 1 Sam. 16:14 we are informed that the very spirit of God departed from Saul, and a bad spirit from God terrorized him. In this we can see an application of the principle indicated by Jesus at Matt. 12:43-45, namely, that if the mind and life are not filled with God's spirit, then they are open to invasion of demon spirits. It is not that God actually sent an evil spirit to terrorize Saul, but by *removing* his holy spirit from the disobedient king a vacancy was left, a vacancy that was promptly filled by a bad spirit or mental inclination. Since God made the evilly inclined possession possible by the removal of his holy spirit, God is referred to as the source of the evil spirit.
> 
> Just how this bad spirit impelled Saul to act or behave like a prophet is not precisely stated in the account. However, it is quite likely that he was filled with prophetic frenzy, as one translation renders the words (AT). Others render the words behaved like a prophetsimply as raved, and concerning this the ***'Soncino' version states: he-raved. lit. played the prophet,displaying the manifestations of physical excitement which were associated with the ecstatic frenzies of the prophetic bands.
> 
> 
> ...





> Unlike using Mathematics as an illustration, the TRUE understanding of God's words is withheld from many...
> 
> "Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not practice deceit, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by open proclamation of the truth, we commend ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god [Satan] of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ~ 2 Cor. 4:2-4 
> 
> "At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from wise and intelligent people and have revealed them to infants." ~ Matt. 11:25 
> 
> Having said that...
> 
> WHY should there be modern Bible translations? Are not the old ones, such as the King James and the Douay versions, good enough? They are good, no doubt, and have helped countless numbers to have faith in God and in his Word, the Bible. But could there be better translations?
> ...





> Golly-Gee,
> You seem to have forgotten the dilemma you were in over your following post (where it all started).  I put an answer forth, that this translation was in error by my following post *#110.*  And I further elaborated that there were later translations that are available that were equal,  if not better. 
> 
> 
> (my emphasis)
> 
> And my answer to the latter, Was of course not!


Well excuse me. I must have missed seeing your answer in the 3 red words, while reading all of your posts above.

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> Well excuse me. I must have missed seeing your answer in the 3 red words, while reading all of your posts above.


Methinks you've missed a lot, including my answer to your original question, backed-up by Scriptures relating thereto. 

*Quote Originally Posted by gregonejeep. Re Post #109.
*
"I know that according to the pastors I have spoken to and that also, there is a Scripture that states the words of the Scriptures are infallible and not one word of them, shall be changed. And I have found this to be true. But I am perplexed though, of the words written in Samuel 16:14,15 and 16 that mentions "evil spirit of God is upon thee" ….
God is the highest and most pure Spirit in the whole universe. Therefore IMO, there is NO way that a evil spirit came from God. So what is one to surmise from these words in KJV Samuel 16:14,15,16 ? *Can or would God do this ??*"

*My answer to the above:* *No, he would not...*

*Not as you attempted to incorrectly portray that answer in your previous post.
*
It is indeed unfortunate, when one can't conjure up an honest and intelligent response, they have to revert to hyperbole and semantics.  

So once again, we're at an impasse in dealing with subject matter that reverts to distractions, as above...which I never have the time nor interest in continuing.

However, i'll be around to keep you well informed, Scripturaly (as needed) in future new postings. <wink>

----------


## gregonejeep

> Methinks you've missed a lot, including my answer to your original question, backed-up by Scripture. 
> 
> *Quote Originally Posted by gregonejeep  View Post...*
> "I know that according to the pastors I have spoken to and that also, there is a Scripture that states the words of the Scriptures are infallible and not one word of them, shall be changed. And I have found this to be true. But I am perplexed though, of the words written in Samuel 16:14,15 and 16 that mentions "evil spirit of God is upon thee" .
> God is the highest and most pure Spirit in the whole universe. Therefore IMO, there is NO way that a evil spirit came from God. So what is one to surmise from these words in KJV Samuel 16:14,15,16 ? Can or would God do this ??"
> 
> *My answer to the above:* No, he would not...
> 
> 
> It is indeed unfortunate, when one is at lose of an honest and intelligent response, they have to revert to hyperbole and semantics.


I am at a loss also, because a while back on this thread you posted that you were "out of here" and I replied, 
"' GOOD BYE " And I did not send you a PM asking for your glorious presence again, on my thread here.    

And how much simpler can it be to read and interpret the Scripture's in blue text below ? When they plainly have these words in them ??

evil spirit from God 
evil spirit from the Lord 

KJV 1 Samuel 16:14... But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an* evil spirit from the Lord* troubled him.

KJV 1 Samuel 16:15...And Saul's servants said unto him,. Behold now, an* evil spirit from God* troubleth thee.

KJV 1 Samuel 16:16  Let our Lord now command our servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on a harp, it shall come to pass when the* evil spirit from God* is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well


All the writer/translator of the above 3 verses had to do when they "translated" these verses in the KJV Bible, was drop the words "from Lord/God" from the sentence. Then, the reader would not even have noticed where the *evil spirit* came from... 

Because even I, as a VERY novice Bible reader knows that dark or evil spirits are Satan's handiwork, and not God's. *But the writer did NOT drop the words "from God/Lord". 

And you snafu, while trying to "explain" away, the meaning of the words "evil spirit from God/Lord" just had to post a gazillion words justifying your reply, "* *No, he would not**" And then you went down in to your own rabbit hole.  And your reply was "backed up by Scripture" ?? Sure it was, from your version/translation Bible. Your reply was not backed up from my KJV Bible.  

So snafu, as to not demean your intellect any further by exchanging replies with a non- intellectual as myself, why don't you do ME and yourself a favor?  

Go start your own thread. And your OP could be, " How to change your Bible's Scriptures words around, to better suit your own beliefs".

Good Bye snafu !!! 
*

----------


## Northern Rivers

Who farted?  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

----------


## gregonejeep

> Unlike using Mathematics as an illustration, the TRUE understanding of God's words is withheld from many...
> 
> "Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not practice deceit, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by open proclamation of the truth, we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god [Satan] of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." ~ 2 Cor. 4:2-4 
> 
> "At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from wise and intelligent people and have revealed them to infants." ~ Matt. 11:25 
> 
> Having said that...
> 
> WHY should there be modern Bible translations? Are not the old ones, such as the King James and the Douay versions, good enough? They are good, no doubt, and have helped countless numbers to have faith in God and in his Word, the Bible. But could there be better translations?
> ...


If ones reads ALL of the above quote, they may get a hint as to why so many people in the passed 50 years, have chosen to not pursue any religious studies. As the biblical scholar that wrote the above quote, was just replying to my question of "why so many Holy Bible translations ?  Because I found there are 98 versions/translations of the Holy Bible, that a person can choose from to study. I am just glad I did not ask the biblical scholar anything about, what I am going to post at the end of this post. 

And to the above quote, I see all the translations of the Bible as being similar to this following scenario...

It is a fact that once the original instruction manual for a specialized machine are sold out, the "copies" made will NEVER be as good as the original. As every person that writes the machines instruction manual copies, will put their own personal experiences/opinions of how the machine is best operated. 

And the easier they make the instruction manual to read, the less likely the machine owner will abide by it as they should. Because if the manual reads too easy the operator will just take it for granted, that the machine is not all THAT complicated to operate. Which will then most likely result in a negative experience for the person, while operating the machine. 

I have posted on this thread before, that it is my belief the Holy Bible's Scriptures were written as they were, because they are inspired and divine. Which means to the reader, they will learn something new from the Scriptures, every time they read them. And that if the reader will read the Scripture's with humility and a open mind, they will probably get help from a "spirit" from God/Christ to understand the Scriptures even more so.  (as in my post #25).

I just used the word "spirit," and I will also use it, with the word soul. IE: soul/spirit.  Because IMO, the spirit is incarnated in to the human being during it's 9 month development, where it then becomes that human being's soul. And when the person's body dies, the soul will leave their expired body and will return to the realm of the spirit world.


 I have found the word "spirit" is a word that Christians do not like to use in general conversation, "outside" of a Bible discussion. Because they fear they will be mistaken for giving credence to a medium, soothsayer or possibly even a "card reader".  Because they believe that all of these people partake in the world of communicating with dark or evil spirits. And they are right in doing so, as these people can be charlatans that can take a person's trust and money illicitly. But does this fact, mean there are only dark or evil spirits on earth?  IMO, it does not to me. 

My KJV Holy Bible has the word "spirit" written in the OT 236 times and in the NT 287 times.  Any book that has a word written in it 523 times to me, means the word is very significant in getting the message to the reader. And the word "spirit" in the Bible, is used a LOT more times to denote ones soul/spirit, than it is to denote a "evil or dark" spirit. 

Most people have used the word "spirit" at some time in their life and not just while telling a "ghost" story. And to the Christian, the word "spirit" IMO, should be very significant to them. Because when a Christian prays, they are sending their prayers from their soul/spirit to God/Christ, the highest developed and most pure Spirit in all the universe. 

And I have talked to people that said their prayer(s) were answered. And none of them told me that Christ just appeared in their living room one day, to answer their prayer. So IMO, their prayers were answered by God/Christ's Spirit working through other people's spirit's, to help that person's prayer get answered.   All JMO

----------


## S-N-A-F-U

> If ones reads ALL of the above quote, they may get a hint as to why so many people in the passed 50 years, have chosen to not pursue any religious studies. As the biblical scholar that wrote the above quote, was just replying to my question of "why so many Holy Bible translations ?  Because I found there are 98 versions/translations of the Holy Bible, that a person can choose from to study. I am just glad I did not ask the biblical scholar anything about, what I am going to post at the end of this post. 
> 
> And to the above quote, I see all the translations of the Bible as being similar to this following scenario...
> 
> It is a fact that once the original instruction manual for a specialized machine are sold out, the "copies" made will NEVER be as good as the original. As every person that writes the machines instruction manual copies, will put their own personal experiences/opinions of how the machine is best operated. 
> 
> And the easier they make the instruction manual to read, the less likely the machine owner will abide by it as they should. Because if the manual reads too easy the operator will just take it for granted, that the machine is not all THAT complicated to operate. Which will then most likely result in a negative experience for the person, while operating the machine. 
> 
> I have posted on this thread before, that it is my belief the Holy Bible's Scriptures were written as they were, because they are inspired and divine. Which means to the reader, they will learn something new from the Scriptures, every time they read them. And that if the reader will read the Scripture's with humility and a open mind, they will probably get help from a "spirit" from God/Christ to understand the Scriptures even more so.  (as in my post #25).
> ...



So why are there so many different versions or translations of the Bible today, did God forgo that control? Hardly!  Do you view new versions as a help or a hindrance to Bible understanding? Learning about their origins can help one to assess them wisely.

Keep in mind, who originally wrote the Bible?  And it wasn't King James.  Nor was it the first English translation either. 

Having said that...

The Bible is normally divided into two sections. The first section has 39 books containing “sacred pronouncements of God.” (Romans 3:2) God inspired faithful men to write these books over a long period of time​—about 1,100 years from 1513 B.C.E. to sometime after 443 B.C.E. They wrote mostly in Hebrew, so we call this section the Hebrew Scriptures, also known as the O.T.

The second section has 27 books that are also “the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13) God inspired faithful disciples of Jesus Christ to write these books over a much shorter time​—about 60 years from about 41 C.E. to 98 C.E. They wrote mostly in Greek, so we call this section the Christian Greek Scriptures, also known as the N.T.


Together these 66 inspired books make up the complete Bible​—God’s message for mankind. So why were additional translations of the Bible made? Here are three of the basic reasons.

*To allow people to read the Bible in their mother tongue.

To remove errors made by copyists and thus restore the Bible’s original text.

To update all archaic language.

*Consider how these factors were involved in two early translations.

About 300 years before Jesus’ day, Jewish scholars began to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into another language​ - Greek. This translation became known as the Greek Septuagint. Why was it made? Simple, to help the many Jews who by then spoke Greek rather than Hebrew to stay close to their “holy writings.”​—2 Timothy 3:15.

The *Septuagin*t also helped millions of non-Jewish, Greek-speaking people to get to know what the Bible taught. How? “From the middle of the first century,” says Professor W. F. Howard, “it became the Bible of the Christian Church, whose missionaries went from synagogue to synagogue ‘proving from the scriptures that the Messiah was Jesus.’” (Acts 17:3, 4; 20:20) 

That was one reason why many Jews soon “lost interest in the Septuagint,” according to Bible scholar F. F. Bruce.

As Jesus’ disciples progressively received the books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, they put them together with the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, and that came to be the complete Bible that we have today.

About 300 years after the Bible was completed, *religious scholar Jerome* produced a Latin translation of the Bible, which eventually came to be the *Latin Vulgate.* Latin translations in various forms already existed, so why was a new one needed? Jerome wanted to correct “wrong renderings, obvious errors, and unwarranted additions and omissions,” says The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

Jerome corrected many of those errors. But in time, church authorities committed the greatest disservice of all! They declared the Latin Vulgate to be the only approved translation of the Bible and continued to do so for centuries! Instead of helping ordinary people to understand the Bible, theVulgate made it a closed book because eventually *most people knew no Latin at all.*

In the meantime, people continued to make other translations of the Bible​—such as the famous* Syriac Peshitta* by about the fifth century C.E. But it was not until the 14th century that renewed efforts were made to give many ordinary people the Scriptures in the vernacular.


*In England in the late 14th century, John Wycliffe* began the process of breaking free from the clutches of a dead language by producing the Bible in English, a language that people in his land could actually understand. Soon after that, Johannes Gutenberg’s printing methods opened the way for Bible scholars to produce and distribute new versions of the Bible in many different living languages throughout Europe.

When English translations multiplied, critics questioned the need to make different versions in the same language. The 18th-century English cleric John Lewis wrote: “Language grows old and unintelligible, therefore it’s necessary to review old Translations to make them speak the Language in use, and be understood by the living generation.”

Today, Bible scholars are in a better position than ever to review older translations. They have a much clearer understanding of ancient Bible languages, and they have valuable ancient Bible manuscripts that have been found in recent times. These help to establish more accurately the original text of the Bible.

You bet there is real value in new Bible versions. Of course, there is need for caution regarding some of them. But if the revisers have been moved by a genuine love of God in making a new Bible version, their work can be of great benefit to us.

What happened to God's personal name in some translations?One reason for this, some translators say, is that God’s personal name, represented by the Tetragrammaton (YHWH), never appeared in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Of course, this is not true!

In the mid-20th century, some very old fragments of the Septuagint that existed in Jesus’ day were found. They contain God’s sacred name written in Hebrew characters (yes God has a name). It seems that later, copyists removed the divine name and substituted *Kyʹri·os​—the Greek word for “Lord”*—​in its place. Some translations restores the divine name Yahweh (Jehovah in English) to its rightful places in the Scriptures.

*A 2,000-year-old Dead Sea Isaiah Scroll.* It matches closely what is in the later Bible of today.

Bible copyists, of course, made mistakes. But none of those mistakes corrupted the Bible. “No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading.”​—Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts.

Jewish copyists made the fewest mistakes. “The Jewish scribes of the early Christian centuries copied and recopied the text of the Hebrew Bible with the utmost fidelity.”​—Second Thoughts on the Dead Sea Scrolls.


For example, a scroll of Isaiah found among the Dead Sea Scrolls is 1,000 years older than the previously available texts. How does it compare with the text we have today? “Very occasionally, the odd word is added or subtracted.”​—The Book. A History of the Bible.

Mistakes​—such as transposed letters, words, or phrases—​made by less meticulous copyists are now easily identified and corrected. “There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.”​—The Books and the Parchments.

“Anxious believers can be enormously reassured by the almost exact similarity between even the earliest of the biblical papyri from Egypt and the text as it has survived during its descent through countless scriptoria and printing shops of Europe.”​—The Book. A History of the Bible.

So, has the Bible been corrupted? Emphatically, no!

Furthermore, it isn't the variety of Bible translations that's driving people away from God, It's the number of christian (small c)* denominations and sects,* numbering well over 3000 in the world;  Many are 'buffet religions' of pick 'n' choose.  Hardly what Christ envisioned; one church, one faith and one way.

The Bible teaches that *Christians “should all speak in agreement.” (1 Corinthians 1:​10)* However, many Christian denominations disagree on teachings as basic as what it means to be a Christian. Such denominations cannot all be right -1 Peter 2:​21.  Unfortunately, many of these are plagued with 'churchoid' doctrines and dogmas. 

It is "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God." ~ 2 Cor. 4:4 NLT


And so it tiz!

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## SharetheHedge

The reason for so many bible translations is to SELL MORE BIBLES.

Usually, common sense trumps "head in the clouds" spirituality  :Cool20:

----------

Fall River (08-27-2020)

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## gregonejeep

Regardless of which translation or version of the Holy Bible a person chooses to read, they all should "steer" the reader to the same final message. And IMO, that message should be that we human beings are God's creation, so in essence we are the "children of God". Therefore, I believe that I am correct in stating that any loving parent would never want to see their child be harmed, or to do harm and for them to live a peaceful and productive life.  And when the Bible reader reads the aforementioned, most will want to ask the same questions ...

"If I am a child of an all loving, omnipotent God, then why is He allowing so many people to suffer pain and grief in their lives ? Even those that have chosen to live their lives as Christians that have been "saved" through His Son Christ, are not   spared from pain and grief at various times in their life. And why is it, there are so many people that do not even believe there is a God, that are living a flourishing life? A life with seemingly less pain and suffering in it and along with the fact, that many of these non-believers are very wealthy."

I would venture to say there are very few pastors or preists that have not heard one of their church members, ask them at least one of the above questions. I have never asked any of the pastor's that I have talked to over the passed years, any of these questions though. As I learned from the pastor of the Baptist church that I was going to when I was 10 years old, to not question the Word nor the "works" of God. But that was 58 years ago, and today I can ask the questions without the fear of my mom's hand smacking the back of my head. 

 And when it comes to the topic of religion, a person's brain want's to present what it has learned from reading the Bible or, while it "listened" to their pastor on Sunday morning at their church for 5- 40 years maybe.  And it stands to reason, that all the Christian's are using the same written document's as their "proof," for their position taken on the topic of debate. And their proof will always be a Scripture posted from their Holy Bible, of whatever translation/version that it may be. 

And we know what happens when the Scripture is being debated from opposing sides, those sides being the Theist and the Atheists'.  The Theist holds their ground by stating the Scriptures are infallible and they are not to be questioned by man. The Atheists holds their ground while stating the Scripture reads as not being logical, or even within the parameters of simple deductive reasoning. The Theists counters with the last words in the debate by stating, "With God, all things are possible" as it is written in the Scripture's. Which then =  the end of the debate. 


But why does it have to be the end of the debate ? Because the Christian cannot "prove" what that falls in to the "realm of the supernatural" like deities, heaven, hell. etc.  The Christian is believing by faith, in those things written about in the Bible.  The Atheists' only believes in " material" things. Meaning those things of which we recognize as human beings, when we use our sense of sight, smell, hearing and touch.


But what if there was "more" to the religious debate than just materialism vs. the supernatural ? 

And the debate actually "merged" the two together ?

----------


## gregonejeep

I have mentioned the word " spirit" MANY times on this thread and have posted many Scriptures' that had the word "spirit" in them. My KJV Holy Bible has the word "spirit" used in the OT 236 times and in the NT 287 times. Therefore IMO, the word "spirit" when used in a religious/supernatural topic bears, a LOT of significance. 

Here is Merriam's/Webster's Dictionary definition of spirit...https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spirit

When a person seeks to become a Christian and starts reading the Holy Bible version of their choice, they will find there is a LOT of information being presented in the book. But IMO, there are two primary goals laid out for the person, that is wanting to change their life and become a Christian.

Goal #1. When the person studies the New Testament, they will learn the teachings of Jesus Christ while He was on earth. And how one can live a life that will not have the dark spirits of sin, overpowering their free will of choice. Which will mean that one can live a better life, while using good morals and abiding by the Ten Commandments. 

Goal # 2. The person will learn that if they will get "saved" through Christ, that when they die their soul will live on in eternity, in the kingdom of God (heaven). And they will also learn that if one does *not* get "saved"  their soul will be judged and sent to hell. And in the Bible, hell is described as a place of eternal fire and torment.

Here is what is written in my KJV Bible when Nicodemus asked Jesus " who can be saved" ??

KJV John: 3:5  Jesus answered... "Verily ,Verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God"   

GOJ translation =  the ceremony of ones baptism by water

KJV John 3:6 .... " that which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit"

GOJ translation = no one living in their flesh and blood bodies, can enter to the kingdom of God..heaven. Only "spiritual" bodies (baptized ?) will be entering the kingdom of God. 


KJV John 3:7..." Marvel not, that I said unto thee. ye must be born again".

GOJ translation =  " born again" means that one must be baptized while having all their sins "washed" away and at which point, the "Holy Spirit" will enter their body. And their life from the day of their baptism will be guided by the Holy Spirit within them, *if* they will "hear" it. If they at some point later in life "backslide" and start living their old sinful way, the Holy Spirit will leave that person as it will not stay in a sinful body.   




KJV John 3:8..." the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goest: so is every one born of the Spirit". 

GOJ translation... The wind blows and we can not see it, but we can see what it effects when it touches any material object. The "soul/spirit" within us cannot be seen, but the choices we make while using our free will   while "listening" to our soul/spirit within us, guides us to make our choices. Choices that affects everything we do and at times, even those around us.  

In my opinion, all people have a soul/spirit incarnated in to them from God, at the time of their development to birth. If we do not, then at what point does our flesh and blood bodies get a "soul" ??  And if we do not have a soul/spirit within us, then why would the Bible have so much text in it about our souls/spirits ?  

Because the Bible teaches us that it is our soul/spirit and not our flesh and blood bodies, that will be entering the kingdom of God or that will be damned to hell after being judged. And the Bible teaches us how that we can make the choice while we are alive, to either have our released soul/spirit go to heaven or hell. And this particular topic *to me* of the " judging" of souls/spirits, is one of the most controversial topics written in the Holy Bible.

Why would I have this opinion ? Especially when the Bible teaches the reader so very plainly, what happens to our "souls/spirits" after our bodies death.

----------


## gregonejeep

I just read the thread in the blue link and it brought to my mind why I started reading my old KJV Holy Bible again in the early 80's, of which I posted about in post #12. 

https://thepoliticsforums.com/thread...=1#post2516907 

I guess whenever well meaning people tell others the "end times" are upon us, some good can come from their soothsaying. Even when they are proven wrong, as my co-worker was around 40 years ago. And I also saw in the linked post the poster wrote down many Scriptures from the Book of Matthew. That were being presented as "indicators" that we are NOW living in the "end times".  So once again, another person has "prompted" me to dig out my old KJV Bible and read the Scriptures in Matthew for myself. 

And I found the Scriptures that were posted from the Book of Matthew, were of the time that Jesus spoke from a mountain, to the multitudes. But if one will read the Scriptures closely, they can tell Jesus was speaking more directly to his disciples. And His teachings are referenced in my KJV Bible as the "Sermon on the Mount".  And IMO, His teachings were telling His disciples how to conduct themselves while living in the flesh, while they were spreading His Word to others. And sure enough, I read where that Jesus was telling his disciples what the "signs" would be of the "end times". 

But the Scripture that I read that was not posted in the linked post, gave me a different "opinion" of the whole "end times" warning signs that were written in the Sermon on the Mount.  And that Scripture was... KJV Matthew 24: 34 where Jesus said," Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled".

I repeat, I am Not a Biblical scholar nor am I even a " go to church every Sunday" person. The way I read KJV Matt 24:34 is, that all of the scriptures written about the "end times" would happen during the generation of people lifetimes that were alive and listening, to His teachings on the Mount. 

This is not a rare occurrence for anyone reading the Holy Bible to experience. If the poster in the link reads this post, I feel sure they will respond by saying something akin to, " A generation in the Biblical times did not equal a generation as we know what a generation of people are, in the modern times of today.  Just like the 6 days of Creation, did not literally mean that God created ALL in just 6 days, as we know what 6 days are today". on and on.... 

O.K. then, the above will be good counter points for one to ponder.  But one has to remember even while they have been taught to never question the Scriptures, as they are the divine and inspired words and acts of God/Christ, which means they are infallible. This being so, a person MUST use their God given common sense also. They must read the Scripture's message, and then see how it will bear "witness" in ones life, while they are in the flesh living the Scripture. Here are some Scripture's that I read today, that may help clarify what I am stating here... 

KJV Matthew 6:33 and 34..

33. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness: and all these things shall be be added unto you.

34. Take therefore no thought for morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself: Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.    

The instructions above in vs. 34 may have been great for a disciple in the Biblical days. But anyone living in the passed 90 years that took no thought about their life beyond the present day, usually did not progress very far in life. 

KJV Matthew 5:30.   And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 

I see no need in showing where common sense has to prevail strongly here, for the reader of the above instruction.

KJV Mark 16:16-18 

16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17. And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues.

18. They shall take up serpents: and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them: they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. 

Regarding verse 17 ..I know that the RCC still "recognizes" the exorcisms of demonic spirits. And I know of one denomination of church that believes they have members that can "speak in tongues".  And I believe also, the "laying on of hands" has been known to happen to sick people, from the hands of very strong believer's.  

And part of verse 18 was brought to court in my state many years ago, to ban snakes being used in any religious practices. All because a particular denomination of church's pastor's were using live rattlesnakes, complete with their venom sacs and teeth intact, to "prove" their beliefs were strong enough. I believe that two pastor's died from their snake bites. Once again, one should exercise and use God's gift of common sense, when reading the Scriptures. 

And the last Scripture that I will post today, is one that affected me personally and it still bothers me to this day, when I think of it. As it further proved to me, that one must use their common sense when interpreting and acting out, on any Scripture. Jesus told His disciples in...

KJV Matthew 5:39.  But I say unto you, that resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 

About ten years ago, a man that had worked with for almost 9 years, became my good friend. (Don, fake name)  Don is a big rascal, probably around 6'2" and about 240 pounds with a LOT of muscle. At 55 years of age at the time of this story, Don was (is) a very religious and humble, peaceful man. He took pride in telling me how much that he believed that God had blessed him, with his great wife and two young children. And that how he always felt really good when the pastor asked him if he would fix something that needed repair on the church, where that he and his family were longtime active members. 

One Monday morning in the shop, I was getting some tools out of the huge tool cabinet when I noticed Don working on something on the work bench. I went over and greeted him and tried to make some chit chat. But Don was not his usual, "merry" self that morning and was slow about even replying to my chat. 

I finally asked Don was there something wrong going on at work, that I could help him with. He looked up at me and said softly with a sad look that I had never seen before and said, " No, it's nothing to do with work. It's something that I guess that I will just have to work out between me and God, in my prayers"...

While not wanting to just leave Don standing looking like he had just kicked a puppy, I just had to do something to see if he would share his problem with me. As maybe it would help him just talking about it and me just be a sounding board. I asked him, " Is this problem something you mind telling me about ? If it is too personal Don, I understand and I'll leave you be". 

Don said, "It happened yesterday at the Sunday Services at my church. My pastor was preaching from the Book of Matthew and suddenly he stopped and said, " Don, would you come up here with me and help me with this next verse" ??  So I just naturally went up on the stage platform and stood by my pastor. Then, he started reading from his Bible again.  

"And just as he was reading the verse where Jesus said to "turn the other cheek", the pastor slapped the right side of my face so hard, my right ear started ringing. And then the pastor asked me, " Now Don, what did Jesus say for you to do " ?? 

Don said, " I was taken by such surprise, I could not even think of the answer, which I knew. I just suddenly clenched up my right fist in front of his nose and I was so upset, I could not speak. The pastor backed away from me real quick and told me that I could be seated". 

Don said, "Now I am ashamed for what I did to the pastor and I cannot face my fellow church members. And my wife told me we cannot go back to that church, and we will have to find another one. And it is all my fault, when all I had to do was turn my head and give the pastor my left cheek".   

WTH Don I thought, but I did not say it. I just put my hand on his shoulder and told him that he did not do anything wrong. And that I hoped he could find another church, that suited him and his family. And after a month or so, he did find a better church and soon after he was back to the old Don I knew, pre-cheek slap.

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## gregonejeep

It has puzzled me for quite some time now, how that on religion forums (or anywhere else for that matter) that whenever a person speaks of anything regarding the Realm of the Supernatural (ROS), the results are usually the same. The person speaking or writing about their belief in the ROS will be regarded by most, as non-credible at their best. Or, they will be deemed as a candidate for the white designer jacket, that only un- buckles in the back.

Yet the Christians and people of various denominations of faith, stand firm in their belief there is a Deity we call God, that created the universe and ALL things in it. And also while believing in the Words of the Holy Bible's Scriptures, they have been taught their "soul" once released from their dead body, will be judged by God. And if they were "saved" while living in the flesh, their soul will live on for eternity in a new spiritual body in Heaven. And if they were not "saved" while living in the flesh, they will be judged by God/Christ and sent to a forever place of eternal fire and torment ..called Hell.

But the exact time of the "judgement" day and whether the soul that is un-saved will just die or will be sent to Hell, has been the center of many "heated" debates among Christians. And yet the Christian / person of faith that believes the aforementioned, can actually tell me with all sincerity and a straight face, that I am a "loon" for believing in the ROS ?  Huh ?? 

But whoa now, how can I post what I did above yet I have stated that I am a believer in God/Christ ?  Read my post #25 to find out why I still today, believe in the existence of God/Christ. Which is about 40 years later now, after my "spiritual enlightenment experience".  

One of the more difficult tasks a "believer" will find themselves doing in life, will be trying to convince a non-believer, WHY they believe. Because the true believer in God/Christ has the moral obligation IMO, to try to help their fellow man, to "find" God. And the only written source the believer has to use for their reference THEY used to become a believer, is their Holy Bible. 

And when the non-believer starts reading the Holy Bible, most get discouraged fairly quickly.  Because the words in the Bible leave the "non-spiritually enlightened" person, with too many un-answered questions.  And IMO, this happens because the non -believer is trying to find answers to questions while using their logic, derived from a viewpoint based on material matter.  Meaning that those things on earth that we can see, hear, touch or smell, that proves to us that "something" ...exists to us. 

But IMO, God/Christ cannot be "found" while we use any of these senses. God/Christ is found by one's "soul/spirit" within them, being "educated" to where it will receive the Holy Spirit communications. ( referred to as being "born again" or one having a spiritual awakening) 

Anyone that has read the Holy Bible for any length of time, will see that its last books of the NT are primarily teaching one how to live a just and moral life, per the teachings of Christ. And then of course, we learn what a person must do to have "eternal" life by being "saved" through Christ. And this is where most "newbie" Bible readers start having the most questions. 

Just a few of which I see many of the intellectuals on this board ask that are non-believers, but are trying to understand why believers,...believe. I will post just some of the non-malicious and worthwhile questions below...,

1. Why did God allow the "fall of man"  (Adam and Eve forbidden fruit event) if He wanted his "children" (his human being creations) to be perfect ? 

2. Why would God, if He is an all loving and just Creator, allow His "children" to suffer on earth ?

3. Why would God allow "evil" to even exist, to tempt his "children" that lead us in to sinning/damnation ?

4. Where are these millions of "souls" right now, that have been released from expired human beings since the time of Creation ?  Why do you believe that God will destroy or put in Hell forever all of the "souls" that were never "saved" ? Would an all loving "Father" of his children, even though He gave his children specific instructions and they did not follow them, cast their souls in to eternal torment? A place where they will never learn anything again, that can be used to better mankind ? 

5. Why is it, that although a man that may have lived 50 years doing pure evil to his fellow man, (like a serial killer) that he can be granted a death bed "salvation" in his last days ?  Because according to what the Bible teaches us, if he is making his convictions "true" from his heart to the prison pastor, then he will be "saved" from damnation. Just the same as a man that was saved at 13 years of age, that lead a good Christian life for his remaining 70 years of life will be saved from damnation. How can we understand in this event, to be "justice" or anything being taught in this event...to be learned from by man, to better mankind ?

I will be back much later to post my opinion on this thread, as to what I believe may give a person another "perspective" about this topic as it has me. And if one will really give my posts some honest and serious "open minded " thinking, MANY of the questions that we humans have about God and mankind and the " un-answerable questions" that we have asked while living on earth, may be answered.  

And these opinion's of mine that I will post later, will take MANY more consecutive ongoing "posts of my ongoing thoughts" from me (if this forums gracious site owner allows them). And these coming posts if allowed to continue, will "merge" somewhat, the two worlds of what I call the Realm of the Supernatural and the world of man's religions/belief's. JMO

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## gregonejeep

As most will learn when they visit or participate in the discussions on Religion Forums, the non-believers will post some questions or replies, that will be hard for the believers to answer.  Questions such as, 

" Does God really exist" ??  My reply to this question would be .... " If one will take in to consideration all the magnificent creations on earth both organic and non-organic that was NOT produced by mans hands. And after acknowledging these creations (man included) how can a person honestly state these creations, are not from a higher power we call God" ??

" If God exists and He created all from the beginning, then who created God" ?  ... " Lets say that one of we earthlings "could" discover* proof* there was a super natural being called "Hammer" that created God. Within a month of the discovery someone would be asking, " Then, who created Hammer?  This question is like the old riddle that most have heard at some time in their life. Which is, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg " ?  IMO, a person is supposed to make better use of their time while living, and not waste a moment thinking about things, that do not add one atom's worth to the betterment of mankind. And "Who made God" is one of those wasted moments of anyone's life. 

" Why does our science which has *provable* answers to our questions and God's "works" as written in the Holy Bible, do at times conflict with each other" ?  .....  " From my understanding of my reading my old KJV Bible, God did not write the Scriptures in the Bible. And it is my understanding also, that Christ never wrote documents that were entered as Scriptures in the Holy Bible either. (if I am wrong, someone prove to me otherwise) So to me, this means the Scriptures were written over time from "spiritually elevated" men.

 And when men are writing about events that happened while *not* in their presence, they have to take the word of the most trusted people around them. And in their writings, they are trying to describe something they may have seen or heard about, that was WAY above the heads of the people they were trying to teach the Gospel. 

So in their writing of the Scripture's they used allegories, metaphors , parables and figurative words to get their message understood. And now today, man has produced 96 versions of translations of the Scriptures in to different named Bibles. Some say this was done just for man to profit from more Bible sales. And some say they did it because the old KJV Bible produced in the 1600's that was dominant in most homes, was too hard to understand the old English in it. I am of the latter opinion. 

When one reads the Bible they will read in the Book of Genesis, about the "Creation".  And one will see that man has written that God created ALL in six days and that He rested on the seventh day.  If we use our powers of reasoning and logic, we instantly ask ourselves " How was this possible" ? The fundamentalist Bible scholar will answer the question immediately with, " With God, all things are possible". 

But some of us even while we KNOW that with God all things are possible, we are still befuddled. The creation of the earth and all the celestial bodies, along with all of the organic and inorganic creations, just took six days ?

Even if we allow that a day (24 hours) was just "figuratively" speaking on the Scripture writer's behalf, we know that science has a different story to tell. As geologist's have drilled VERY DEEP "core" samples out of the earth on various locations, over the earth. And their core drill will hold samples "stacked" in the drill with each layer of the earth it penetrated for them to analyze. 

And each plug of the "layer's" will have fossils and matter in it, that proves what time frame the drilled layer of earth was formed and what life forms was living in the area at the time. And many of the layers were formed thousands of years apart. But how could the remains of a living things during a time span difference of a thousand years, be embedded in various layers of the soil on earth? When the Bible states the earth and heaven was created in six days? 

Does this mean that the Scripture writer lied to we Bible reader's, about God's six days of Creation?  Absolutely not IMO. There is a huge "moral" difference between a man that tells a known lie, and one that just does NOT know, of what he is trying to express on paper. 

Because how could a man 2000 years ago that was writing their contribution to the Scripture's, even have the mental capacity to comprehend, such an event as the" creation" of ALL things?  And we expect perfection from ALL the men that contributed to the Scripture's ?  No one in the flesh has ever been "perfect" in their work, except Jesus Christ. 

I believe that God does not work within any time "parameters" that we humans will ever understand. I believe the creation of all things happened over a very LONG time span. And probably as the fossils show, it took millions of years to create what was/is on earth.  But what is one to believe, when reason and logic prove otherwise?  One cannot use hard logic or "too" much reasoning when trying to understand the topic of God or the Realm of the Supernatural. Because as the Bible says, we will become fools in our own wisdom. 

But I do believe there is a purpose in God's plan. And that plan will be to have all the human beings on earth become as He meant for us to be. Caring, good people that will share the earth with all others while living a moral and just life. No more crime, hurt, sadness, or needless deaths. A life that every human being could have lived since Creation, if they had just abided by the one rule.... " Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you".  

But we humans did not by the majority, live by the Golden Rule. As too many of us allowed our "spirit" within us that came from God, to be tempted and guided by the "dark" spirits here on earth. Which brings to mind another question that I saw the other day on the forum. Which was something like this, "If God is an all loving God that wanted man (His creation) to be perfect, then why did He allow evil to exist " ?

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## gregonejeep

GOJ wrote "If God is an all loving God that wanted man (His creation) to be perfect, then why did He allow evil to exist " ?

When I searched my KJV Bible to find out the first mention of evil, I started in the first Book of Genesis and found the Scripture below. It is about when God is creating "tree's" in the Garden of Eden.  And again IMO, the writers used "trees of knowledge/good/evil" as symbolic, just so that man would be able to mentally "grasp" what they are reading.

KJV Genesis 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The above Scripture shows that God placed in the Garden of Eden the* tree of knowledge of good and evil.* To me, this proves that even from the time of Creation, evil existed and God allowed man to be tempted by evil. But, man cannot truly understand all of the works of God, as we do not have the "spiritual intellect" to even question the "why" of His works.  As God is a Spirit per my KJV Bible, and since we humans think with our carnal minds, the Scripture below comes to mind...

John 4:24..God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV Genesis 6:3..And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 

And from what I understand in my Bible reading, is that man also has a spirit. Would this not makes sense though, as God is spirit and He made man in his likeness ? 

KJV Numbers 27:16 ... Let the LORD,* the God of the spirits of all flesh*, set a man over the congregation


I will go ahead and give my opinion though, as to why God tempted man from the beginning of his time of creation, with evil. And today, the temptation for man to be sinful and to do evil is still going on. As every man living on earth daily, makes a choice of doing something good, or something not so good or even evil. It is NOT God's will for man to be sinful, but in order for man to become "pure" in "spirit"(his spirit) every man must prove to God he has the will...to resist evil. As it is man's nature to do what is sinful, as God must have a sense of humor, as He made the sinful things we can do either fun or pleasurable. 

If man while exercising his God given free will had no "polar opposites" to choose from like good or evil, then he would be living a life akin to a robot. A machine that is already programmed to do only certain actions. A machine that does not know what is right or wrong, unless its programmer upgrades its OS to recognize what will be a "right or wrong" action, taken by the robot.  


But if the above is even close to being right, why does our planet have SO many people on it, that thrive on doing wrong ? All while they are making other people's lives miserable?  Sure, the Bible teaches us that "Satan" is the ruler over earth. But how come we have people that just WILL NOT, allow themselves to let sin or evil rule their life? They instead choose to live a good and moral life and MANY of these same good people, NEVER even go to church. 

Does this bring to question that, if all human beings souls/spirits came from a perfect God, then why aren't all people on earth GOOD people? Does this mean that upon ones conception, that God incarnated a "bad soul/spirit" in to one fetus, and then puts a "good soul/spirit" in to another fetus ? Would this action resemble anything coming from a just and loving God ?  I think not....

I base my belief that a human being has a "soul/spirit" within them, on the two primary reasons. 

*One*. If we do not have a "soul/spirit", then why do so many of the KJV Holy Bible's Scriptures speak of it ?  The "soul" is mentioned in the OT 443 times and in the NT 55 times. If we do not have a soul, then what lives on passed our death that can or can not upon judgement, enter the kingdom of God? 

*Two*. The Holy Bible states that we have a soul in Genesis 2:7  ...And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Then, are we to assume that Adam is the ONLY human being that had a soul ? I would think not. And the soul that we have, if it were not incarnated in to us at some point PRIOR to our birth, then when did we get it ? At our high school graduation ? Our baptismal ? Our wedding ?  I would think not...

I will remain choosing to believe that our soul/spirit is incarnated in to we humans, pre-birth. And IMO, as we grow from a child to an adult, all of the information that our brains retains " develops" what I call both our carnal intelligence and spiritual intelligence. 
It is the spiritual intelligence that flourishes in ones soul, that allows a "communication" with the spirit of God/Christ in their prayers. And the way ones soul gets spiritual intelligence is to read and abide by the Holy Scripture's. And also, ones soul/spirit develops even higher from every good and kind act they do for others lives, during their time on earth.  And every sinful or evil act that one does, negatively affects the "spiritual development of their soul. And the primary way for one to get their soul "developed" to a higher "spiritual state" is for them to be saved through Christ. As Christ is the highest and most pure spirit in the universe. 

 One can readily see today, there are a LOT of people on earth that show NO signs or inclination, of having spiritual intelligence.  So, what difference does it make if a person does not have any spiritual inclinations ? To the non-believer of course, it makes no difference. As they believe that upon ones death their body dies, and it is either cremated or it rots in a box which means the END of that person existence. Nothing is left of them except a headstone, brass emblem and some picture albums. Remnants, left by the deceased just to remind their heirs they left behind them, of the time when they were living. 

 Is this all we human beings were created for ? Does not ones power of reason, not lend them to at least be "open" to the possibility, there is a great plan unfolding for man? A plan that is the works of a Supreme Intelligence, that the believers call God? And if a person believes in the law of cause and effect, the aforementioned does make s one ponder a bit. 

All matter be it organic or inorganic in the universe, must have been created while being a cause, but to what effect? Why is it, that so many people will choose to learn of spirituality and many do not ?  Even many of those that do not believe in the existence of God, will spend hours and hours of their life on internet forums, while trying to get the believers to PROVE to them, that God does exist. 

Why would a person that states they KNOW that God or the Realm of the Supernatural does NOT exist, even bother taking their time trying to get a believer, to prove they are wrong ? The only reason that makes sense to me at least, is the soul/spirit within a person that came from God, is still "nudging" their mind to keep on asking their questions. As maybe somewhere along the way, they may open up their mind and heart and acknowledge that maybe the believer's are not all delusional. 

But even God/Christ knows when His efforts are being wasted on a person that has really "hardened" their heart too much, to ever believe. And they will eventually not be "nudged" anymore by God/Christ, and left alone to live their life and die, with the choice they made. 

Or is the human being just something in the universe that was created by "chance" maybe ? All while diverse molecules went flying about that somehow bonded together in space, that resulted in a living being? I think not.  Because what is chance ? Chance is nothing. If "chance" was real, it could produce something. Chance produces nothing to man, but empty wishes.

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## gregonejeep

Back in 1981 during my time of spiritual enlightenment, I found out that whenever I said to a Christian that man has a spirit within him, my words were not welcomed.  Even though the Holy Bible has the word "spirit" written 523 times in the OT and 287 times in the NT.  The Baptist church that I went to as a child, the pastor only mentioned the word "spirit"  whenever he was referencing Jesus casting them out. Or, while reading to his congregation Scriptures such as these...

KJV Matthew 12:45...Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other *spirits* more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
KJV Mark 1:16... And when the *unclean spirit* had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

KJV Mark 9:16...And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a *dumb spirit*;

KJV Deuteronomy 18:11...Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar* spirits*, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

KJV Mark 1:26 ..And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

After a person reads just the few Scripture's above that is using the word spirit in the negative sense, it is no wonder the word *spirit* is perceived as a harmful and invisible entity. One that only comes from the dark, Satanic world that brings harm or sickness to a person.

But, I am a bit obstinate in my belief that if any topic is being debated or taught in a class, BOTH sides of the aisle should be made aware of* both* the negative and the positive aspect of any key word being discussed. And if the Bible reader does this, they will see the word spirit is used in the KJV Bible's Scriptures MANY times, while NOT being used in a dark, Satanic or negative way.   Here is just a few I found of such...

KJV Genesis 1:2...And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the *Spirit* of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And the above Scripture I have seen posted on this forum lately. And the poster must be using the translation of Bible that does not want to speak about "spirit(s) either. As their Bible changed the "Spirit of God" to "Power of God". 

KJV Exodus 31:3...And I have filled him with the *spirit* of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

KJV Numbers 16:22 ..And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the *God of the* *spirits of all flesh*, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Deuteronomy 2:30...But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his *spirit,* and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

KJV Matthew 3:16...And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the *Spirit of God* descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

KJV Matthew 26:41... Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the* spirit* indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.


KJV Acts 7:59... And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my *spirit.*

And even in the time of Christ, while He was performing miracles while casting out bad spirts from people, His disciples seem to only think of a "spirit" as a bad entity. Because one day when the disciples were on the boat, they watched as Jesus walked on the waters of the sea. And they became afraid, as they thought what they were seeing was a *spirit.* But Jesus assured them as written below,

KJV Mark 24:39...Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a *spirit* hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

1 Corinthians 2:11. ..For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the *spirit of man which is in him*? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the *Spirit of God.

*1 Corinthians 2:11 reads to me that man has a "spirit" within him. How else can man communicate with God (who is a Spirit per John 4:24) except through his own spirit, that is within him?  KJV John 4:24...God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I have spent a LOT of time reading about other faiths and denominations since 1981, while trying to figure out just WHAT it was, that I experienced during my "spiritual enlightenment" event. (post #15). And I have come to the conclusion that during my lowest point in my life in 1981 as was reading my old KJV Bible, that a "spirit" from God/Christ was working with the "spirit" within me. 

And now almost 40 years later, I can still recall all of the details of my "experience". The "spirit" from God allowed me to know and feel the absolute wonder of the "grace" and the "fruits" of the Spirit of God/Christ. My inner being was changed to someone I did not resemble at all, at that time. As I felt and acted on the "fruits" of the spirit, while having my eyes and heart "opened" to God. As the "fruits" of God/Christ's Spirit are below...

KJV Galatians 5:22...But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

But one will find that Christians do not feel at ease when someone mentions a "spirit" in conversation. Not only because of the opening lines I posted above, but because of the history that man has built around the topic of "spirits" or the spirit world. History shows that mankind accepted the Christian Bible teachings while "spirit(s) are mentioned over 810 times in it. The Bible teaches us there are evil spirits that can/do control a mans soul/spirit IF, he allows it to happen. 

Man has been taught by their churches to recognize God/Christ as the Spirit of love and purity. And for man to leave the topic of all other "spirit's" to the mediums, fortune teller's, witches, and soothsayers. Because we know how those people in the medieval times were hung and burned at the stake, because they represented to the ignorant masses, the epitome of evil. Because these people claimed they could "speak" to the spirits of the dead. And in the Bible we are warned to NOT have any associations with these "people" because they are an abomination to God as it is written ...

KJV Deuteronomy 18:10... There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

 KJV Deuteronomy 18:11...Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

 KJV Deuteronomy 18:12... For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

To me, the person that wrote the above Scripture is informing man, there are people that can do these acts of "spirit communication".  Otherwise, why give people a warning about something, that does NOT exist ?  Or, was there people in the Biblical times just like in our times today, that made such claims of spirit communication, but were just charlatans ? 

It matters not, as a person should just adhere to the warning in the Scriptures' above and not have anything to do with so called mediums, psychics and such other people. But this does bring to mind a man that was born in Hopkinsville, KY that "rocked" the boat, of the spiritually minded people in his time.  His name was Edgar Cayce, AKA "The Sleeping Prophet".  

EC did not charge money for his "readings" and he left behind a legacy of good deeds that helped people with their ills. And he helped to advance the medical fields to cure illnesses in the late 1800's/early 1900's. So I know of at least one man that was born and raised about 70 miles from my hometown, that was not hung or burned at the stake for having a "gift" from God.

Let's say that a person tells their non-believer (NB) friend, all of the stories that are in the Holy Bible about the miracles performed by God/Christ. Or, if they hand their NB friend the Book of Revelations and tell them to read it sometime.  If their NB friend does either one, then when the person also tells them they believe that man has a "spirit" from God incarnated in to him ?? IMO, it will not come as that big of a surprise, to their NB friend.

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## Fall River

Quantum Spirituality.

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Northern Rivers (05-18-2021)

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## Bastion

> Many state it exists, and as many will say it does not exist. And even many Christians do not feel comfortable speaking on the subject, even though their fervent faith in the existence of God...falls in to this realm. I like to start my topics by using my source for the* definition of a word*, which is my old large Webster's Collegiate Dictionary sitting on my office shelf.
> 
> My WCD defines the word *Supernatural*:
> 
> "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. esp: of or related to God or a god, demigod, *spirit* or devil. Departing from what is normal esp: so as to transcend the Laws of Nature ".
> 
> As I stated in the Atheist thread, people that do believe in the supernatural (SN) whether they are a Christian or not, will be "reserved" about stating their own SN experiences. Simply because they will use caution doing so, for fear they will be perceived as one that is delusional, irrational or even having other mental or societal "disorders". 
> 
> One must use caution also, when reading or listening to people's SN experiences. Because as we know magicians, illusionists, card readers, mind readers and even television shows may use the premise of the SN to make a paycheck. This thread is not for those people or their customers to post their SN experience, that was based on a *motive.*
> ...


I almost completely Dismiss the majority of so called "Supernatural Experiences"; and would handily dismiss them all out of hand, but for my quite possibly witnessing another person having one. It was the weirdest thing that I'll never forget. Let me explain...

When I was 16, I was living in a very rural part of Western New York. A tiny town, with as many Amish, As there were English. We teenagers had our favorite party spot to go out, drink beer, make asses of ourselves around a bonfire. Typical country kid stuff. Our place was called 5 mile. It was a place deep in the woods with no homes around for miles, but for one Amish family that lived a half mile or so through the woods where our actual party spot was. The weekend came, and the call went out to the usual suspects that "it was going down" at 5 mile. Be there, or be square.

So we got together the usual gang, except for one kid we hadn't met. It was one of our buddies cousins who came into town to visit. So he brought him along. Seemed alright even if he was a bit quiet. Not so so strange him being a city kid surrounded by drinking, and drunk rednecks in the middle of nowhere. As the night wore on, and the lot of us had gotten drunker, and drunker; "Cuzo" as we had come to call him, interrupted a good row of joke telling, by standing up, and telling everyone to "shut up"! "Listen"! "Did you hear that"? Oh boy... Here we go... Drunk city kid is hearing forest sounds, and freaking out. After some friendly ribbing, we get back to the festivities at hand. Ten minutes later he starts in again. "Seriously guys". "You didn't hear that"? My buddy, his cousin, assured him that if he did hear anything, it was just some animal moving about the brush. To which "Cuzo" flatly asked, "Do the animals around here yell "HELP"? "It's not an animal. I heard a girls voice". 

We could all see he was quite serious, and proceeded to intently listen for what must have been five solid minutes. The only sound was the crackling of the fire, and the occaisional beer being opened... Then after about five minutes had passed "Cuzo" points at the treeline and yells "there"! "See I told you"! We all just looked at each other, now beginning to realize that "Cuzo" is just flat out fucking drunk, and hearing shit. But before anyone can make a dig on him he bolts out into the woods yelling "C'mon"! Breaking branches and yelling "Hey!", as he's barreling out into the woods...

Well, we all know this kid has no idea where he is, and the last thing our drunk asses need is for this guy to get actually lost. So three of us set out after him. Having hunted these woods for years, me and my buddy know that if he heads this direction much farther he's gonna run headlong into a stretch of barbed wire fence that separates the State land from the Amish farmers land. And even if he doesn't tangle himself up in that... He's gonna fall down a steep ravine, into a rather deep section of creek, that is but three strides from the fenceline. This has turned into a total clusterfuck at this point...

So we run after him stumbling in the darkness, getting snagged, and cut on briars racing to reach him, before he reaches the barbed wire, or worse what's beyond the wire. Lucky for everyone he got tangled up real good in a patch of blackberry briars and we were able to reach him before he reached the fence. My buddy, his cousin is pissed at this point. I thought there was gonna be a fight... "Cuzo" kept insisting he had heard numerous times a girl cry out for "help", And that we just "gotta believe him". We didn't. And we were bleeding, now mostly sober, and quite fucking pissed at "Cuzo". 

We untangle "Cuzo", and head back through the woods to the bonfire, where everyone was wrapping it up for the evening. We were out of beer by then so everyone was ready to call it a night anyhow. Besides I had to work the next day at my families corner store. That was the last time I ever saw "Cuzo". Morning came and I drug my ass to work. This town is small. everyone, knows everyone. Including the Amish who would come to the store for odds, and ends when need be. Heck! one of my close friends was an Amish kid named "Harley". Well, in comes Harley with five other Amish teens in tow that I'd never seen before. As they were perusing our wares I asked Harley who these guys were, and if someone was getting married. He said no. They're here for the funerals. I asked him "what funerals"? He said "You know my uncle? Owns the Yoder farm?" (That's the farm adjacent to the State land where we party) "I said of course; he died?" "No" Harley said... "The girls"... "Thursday, they were playing down by the creek by the ravine, with their little brother". "The youngest fell in, and her older sister went in to pull her out." "They didn't know how to swim..." "By the time Jacob made it to the house, and came back with my Uncle, and my Da"... "It was too late". "They were gone"... "Drowned"... That was the first time in my life my blood ever literally ran cold...

I conveyed mine and my families sympathies, and couldn't help but think of "Cuzo" What the fuck did he hear that night? Did he really hear anything? Why did no one else hear anything? Since that day I've always been skeptical, but cautious to never rule out the supernatural completely. I'm convinced "Cuzo" did hear something that night. But I just can't explain it...

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gregonejeep (08-25-2020),usfan (08-25-2020)

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## gregonejeep

Thanks for sharing your experience Bastion. The hardest part of one accepting the "unexplained" is we keep going over and over the SN event while using all of our powers of logic and reasoning, and we still cannot come up with an answer.  But this fact does not mean what we experienced, did not happen. I am of the belief that some people are more susceptible to being a participate in SN events. As there are just WAY, WAY too many people that will swear on their life, their SN event happened. 

And if they are not earning money from their story, or trying to impress someone with a lie, why would anyone put themselves in the position of having their "mental health" questioned, by telling anyone of their SN event? To do so, just does not make sense. And I am of the belief that not everyone is "susceptible" to having a SN in their life. And I believe why they do not, may have a lot to do with their own soul/spirit being "receptive" to SN events.  

Cuzo sounded and reacted like someone that was genuine about his alarm. I cannot imagine anyone putting themselves through the danger of running through unknown woods at night PLUS, he probably knew he would get his azz kicked when you guys caught up with him.  The whole scenario does not "ring out" to me at least, as a "joke" that one would do just to get attention. 

I had a similar "event" that happened to me many years ago, when I was working in the plant operations dept. in a hospital. The hospital was closing due to financial woes, but due to the property insurance remaining valid and it being on the sales market, we had to keep the heat, water and lights on.  Everyone in the hospital got fired except me and my boss (including security)  so he and I had to swap nights of being security.  But the private doctor practices in the medical office building that was part of the hospital's physical structure, stayed in operation while waiting on a new owner. 

One night at 9:00 pm as usual, I walked the doctor's office late shift cleaning staff to the main entry door and let them out. I then locked the doors as no one else was in the building nor, was anyone to come in to the building from 9:00 pm and after.  I then proceeded to do my "walking rounds" checklist of the whole facility that I did every night when I was on security duty. 

I walked EVERY hall and all of the departments of the facility to be SURE, no one was in the building and that all the lights were turned off.  I walked through the "nursing home" floor of the hospital and checked it out, and found no lights left on and all the rooms/nurses station was vacant. I then went on up to the top floor of the hospital and found that all was vacant and all lights were off. (except the "emergency lights" of course that could not be turned off) 

When I came back down from the fourth floor, I used the stairs instead of the elevator. Just as I was walking in front of the two LOCKED large double doors that entered the vacant nursing home suddenly a loud, woman's scream sounded from behind the nursing home side of the doors. 

With the hairs on the back of my neck standing straight up and both of my arms full of "goose bumps",  my shaking hand with the master key in it finally got the nursing room doors open.  I walked every patient room, hall, break room, etc. and ALL of the areas in that nursing home. I could find *no one or anything* in the nursing home dept. that could have made that sound that was exactly, as a woman's loud scream. 

And being the hospital physical plant worker, I knew every sound of the mechanical systems in the building. Like any PRV's valves releasing, water hammer in the pipes, steam traps hissing, pneumatic HVAC motors/controls lines leaking, etc. And of course just as most people would do, I did not tell my boss or anyone else about the event.  Even if my job would be ending a month later, when the new owners bought the hospital.

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usfan (08-25-2020)

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## usfan

It is only prejudicial bias that causes some people to categorically dismiss ALL experiences with the supernatural. 

It has been too long an integral part of the human experience. To dismiss everything is to ignore obvious reality.

Skepticism is fine.  I'm more skeptical than most. But a logical, scientific mind cannot ignore the overwhelming evidence for a spiritual realm.

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gregonejeep (08-25-2020)

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## Fall River

Have you ever heard stories coming from twins?  For example, let's say one twin lives in California and the other lives in Florida.  One twin dies suddenly and the other senses it almost immediately.  He or she absolutely knows that something drastic has happened to the other.  There's a form of instant communication that happens automatically.  

On the following link, look down to where it says:  "Quantum Spirituality. In quantum physics, objects are possibilities residing in a domain of potentiality outside of space and time. In this domain, *no signals are required for communication when two objects are in a state of correlation or entanglement; communication is instantaneous."*  This may be as good an explanation as any for what happens with twins.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=quantu...4cf0d796927b56

The same has happened to me, although I'm not a twin; it happened with my sister.  My sister lived about 2,000 miles away from me, but every time someone died and she went to a wake service, I would have a spooky dream of attending it.  In one dream, I knew it was one of my aunts that had died but I didn't know which one. It later turned out to be an aunt by marriage, not a blood relative.  In another dream it was my brother-in-law's sister.  It only happened between me and my sister, no one else. And I didn't figure it out until after the second time it happened.

There was one other time when something similar happened:  I had a horrible dream that a man was struggling to get out of a car that was being submerged in water.  It was so real, like the two events above, that, again, I thought it must have really happened.  So, first thing in the morning, I turned on the radio news and there it was explained as a car accident.  The man's car somehow flipped up and over the guardrail on a bridge.  It was soon submerged and the man was unable to get out.  

I also did an experiment once to see if I could communicate my thoughts with people on a message board (not this one).  I decided it should be something not likely to be talked about, like chocolate.  Then, during the night, I tried to implant the idea that someone should suddenly have the urge to start a thread about chocolate.  And the next day there was a thread about chocolate.  Okay, I admit, it could have been just a coincidence. 
I would have had to do it again and again to prove otherwise, but I just lost interest and I guess you could say my psychic-powers were running low.  It takes a lot of effort.   :Smiley20:

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gregonejeep (08-25-2020)

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## gregonejeep

It has puzzled me for years now, how that people that state they believe in God/Christ and heaven and hell yet, they will not even entertain the notion, that man has within him a spirit. The word "spirit(s)" is written in the KJV Bible over 800 times so IMO, the word bears some significance for the reader. And MANY of those times, the word spirit is used in a less than stellar context, as it is written. ..

KJV Mark 1:23..*And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,* 

KJV Mark 1:26..*And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.*

KJV Mark 5:13...*And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.
*
And the Bible reader should be cautious, as there is a Scripture that gives a warning to the people living in the biblical times. A warning to not patronize with, or use the services of a medium to "communicate with the spirit's of the dead", or a soothsayer, witch, wizard etc. As to do so, they are committing an abomination against God/Christ as it is written in,

KJV Deuteronomy 18:10.. *There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

*KJV Deuteronomy 18:11....*Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 

*KJV Deuteronomy 18:12*... For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


*After I read all of the Scriptures above, I could then see why that a Christian or anyone as a new Bible student, would want to remove the word "spirit" from their vocabulary. As the word spirit in my KJV Bible appears to be connected much too often to dark, evil, harmful spirits. 

And at least to me, this warning in the Bible for one to NOT patronize with mediums or necromancer's proves to me that this world of "spirit's" could/does exist. If it does not exist, then why would we be warned of something that can not or does NOT exist? But as I read my old KJV Bible more and more, I noted the word "spirit" was mentioned in some other Scriptures, while NOT being used in a negative way. As is written,

KJV Genesis 1:2...*And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
*
KJV John 4:24...*God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.*

KJV Romans 8:18...*The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
*
KJV 1 Corinthians 2:11.. *For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
*
KJV 1 Corinthians 2:12..*Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.*

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:20..*For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.*

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:45...*And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.*

KJV Numbers 27:16..*Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

*From what I understand from the above Scripture's, is that God is a Spirit. So IMO, in order for man to communicate with God/Christ through prayer, man must have a "spirit" within him to do so. And IMO, when we see people that are "born again" or that has "found Jesus", what they have done is opened up their hearts and minds and asked Christ for forgiveness, repented from their sins and they want Christ to take over their lives.

 And when the person does this, the Spirit of God/Christ will "connect" with their spirit they were born with, and that person's inner being will be changed by the Spirit of God/Christ. Their inner being will be changed to one they will not believe is real, but it is. And that person's inner being will be changed so it will feel and act upon, the "fruit of the Spirit" as it is written...

KJV Galatians 5:22...  * But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 
*
I know the above can happen to a person when they "find God/Christ", because it happened to me. I described my "awakening" experience in my post #14 on this thread. But how is a person supposed to REALLY believe, they have a "spirit" within them? We cannot see it, we have no way of knowing what it is supposed to feel like to have a spirit within us. We have heard people say they are in "high spirits" today. Or have heard someone say their "soul is aching" for the loss of their good friend.  

Are the words soul/spirit just words that we use while speaking in "generalities" to describe something that does NOT exist ?  But why would our Bibles mention the word soul or spirit if they were not of importance to man's understanding ? As we know the word "spirit" is the root word for many words in our vocabulary today such as spirituality, spiritualistic, spiritualize, on and on. But how did man get a "spirit" and when did he get a soul ?   As it is written..  

KJV Genesis 2:7..*And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.*
KJV Numbers 27:16..*Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
*
I read the above Scripture as that Christ our Lord, is God of the spirits of all men.   As I for one, have had it proven to me that "something" exists of a man, after they have died that "lives" on, in another unseen world. And that something to me IMO, is a man's spirit that became his soul while the man lived on earth in the corporeal world. And when the man's body dies, his soul is released to become a spirit again to live in the spirit world.  

But most people have been taught as I mentioned in the opening of this post, the topic of "spirit's" should NOT be one that anyone should be having. And I agree, but what if the topic of "spirit's" gives one's more answer's to their many questions about the Realm of the Supernatural, than any other source ?

If one wants to know all there is about their heart, they would read a book about the heart and have a talk with a cardiologist.  If someone wants to know what happens to ones soul after the death of their body, they would not do well getting their information from someone that has not died.  Why ? Because that person has no experience in the matter. So just who would know with authority, what happens to the souls of those that have died ?

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usfan (09-17-2020)

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## gregonejeep

I must say this* thread* really caught my interest as there is a post by Mr. Snafu in it, that fits in to my ROS thread to a "T". And now that my doc's Botox shots in the back of my neck every 90 days has made my CV neck pain tolerable, I'll try to post again and see how it goes. 

As IMO, Mr. Snafu has posted the name of doctrine/philosophy/religion of *Spiritism,* which has the answer in it, to the last post that I posted to this thread.

Sept 2020, [Quote] "If someone wants to know what happens to ones soul after the death of their body, they would not do well getting their information from someone that has not died. Why ? Because that person has no experience in the matter. So just who would know with authority, what happens to the souls of those that have died ? [End Quote]

*Mr. Snafu posted [Quote] Spiritism. The Devil misleads people through spirit mediums, fortune-tellers, and those who practice divination or astrology. (Deuteronomy 18:10-​12) Drug use, hypnotism, and meditation techniques that empty the mind also expose a person to demon control.​—Luke 11:24-​26. [End Quote]*

As the answer to my question above IMO is, the spirit's of those that have died that are now in the spirit world, knows what happens to the souls/spirits of the dead.  But why am I calling what the Bible refers to SO MUCH, as ones "soul" a* spirit* ?

 As we know, most Scripture especially in the Holy Bible's NT, only write about "spirits" as those evil, sick devilish spirits in people that Jesus cast out of people, when He was performing miracles here on earth. Therefore, we as a society over the millenniums were raised to be "wary" of anyone speaking about "spirits" as they could be a spawn of Satan.  Or, they owned a haunted house and wanted to rent it out for Halloween. 

I believe that every man ( I use the words man/his in my posts to mean both male and females ) is born with a spirit that God incarnated in to them, during their fetal development. But the spirit once incarnated in to the human, will then be generally known as the man's soul. If our soul/spirit was not incarnated in to us while being in the fetal stage, then at what time during our life did we get it? When we graduated high school, got married, was saved ??

But where did I acquire the above opinion ? For over a year now, I have been reading about the religion/doctrine/philosophy of *spiritism*. The very same topic that Mr. Snafu and the Scripture's give the reader, a warning to avoid. 

The root word of spiritism is *spirit*. It confounds me to see that although the Scripture's teach us that man has a spirit from God within him, it is an abomination for us to delve in to the matters of "spirit's". And yes, I agree with Mr. Snafu and the Scripture's admonition of using the "talent's" of supposed mediums, fortune teller's and other such professed people. As they can be charlatans or people with "dark" spirits within them.  

But does the fact that certain dishonest people will tarnish a talent or skill, warrant demonizing that skill?  If we hold ourselves to this standard, we would have to demonize ALL facets of what we use to live our daily lives. IE: store owners, bankers, builders, auto sales people, doctors, scientists, etc. could ALL be considered as a charlatan industry. Because there are some dishonest people, in ALL of the human services we use. 

How can a man and God/Christ "communicate" through prayer, if the man does not have a spirit within him, to communicate with God/Christ ?  Being a bit "tongue in cheek" now, but to date I have not read or heard of anyone having a internet or 5G connection, to the supreme deity. (may be some TV preachers making such a claim though) 

But just who ever said that man has a spirit within him ? As it is written...

SKJV John 4:24...*God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

SKJV Romans 8:18...The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

SKJV 1 Corinthians 2:11.. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

SKJV 1 Corinthians 2:12..Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

SKJV 1 Corinthians 6:20..For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

*And I have found during my study of spiritism, that it answers about ALL of the question's that man has about the topic of Christianity, creation, the universe, and  and living life, that one could probably ever ask.  And while all at the same time IMO, spiritism "in general" agrees with the Scripture's. 

But there is a major difference in man's creations of the doctrines of Christianity and the doctrines of Spiritism. And that is, Spiritism allows man's science with it's provable facts, to coincide for the most part with the Scripture's. Which is one of the reasons IMO, that atheist's and agnostics can absolutely kick butt whenever debating the Scripture's vs. science with theist's. Because the Holy Bible is NOT a science book, where one can quote Scripture's to prove or disprove scientific fact or fallacy.  

I have only read the most popular book of the 4 books about Spiritism and I am now starting on the second book. They are a hard read at least for me, as they really go DEEP in to the chapter's topic and use verbiage that I have to hit the "dictionary" key to look to see what it means.  But the hardest part for me that I found while reading the spiritism book(s), is overcoming my societal and church ingrained indoctrinations. Those indoctrination's of how we should perceive our life and what comes after, our death.

But as a believer, does my reading the books of Spiritism justify people calling me a heretic or blasphemer? I certainly hope not. But if it does, then I will know these people that do so are holding their Bible as their shield, while not acquiring more than one source of knowledge about the matters of spirituality. Much like the people of the medieval times ( and even less years ago, as in Salem) that in their ignorance killed what they feared. Rather than getting the knowledge to help them understand "what" is was they feared. So they burned at the stake, hung or stoned, the people that caused their "fear". 

I am of the opinion that if God had not given us a brain that could "look" beyond any one fixed source of information or train of thought, then we would still be living in caves. All while we waited for the next lightening strike on a tree, to give us a fire to heat our cave and cook our saber tooth tiger meat. JMO

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usfan (05-18-2021)

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## patrickt

-why does every human lose 22g weight at the moment of death?
Very few humans have been weighed as they die but my first thought, being quite familiar with death, if the bladder and bowels evacuate.
-how can kids recall 'previous lives'
This has been debunked often. I have two kids. Neither have "recalled" previous lives although they have "imagined" them when playing games. My son was a pirate and my daughter was a princess. And why do people see a tunnel with a bright light as near-death experiences when they're Christians and see their reincarnation if they're Hindu?
-what are the orbs recorded on video at supposedly haunted locations?
Beats me. Did someone in the supernatural tell you I had all the answers. Not being gullible, I have no reason to believe they're ghosts, spirits, ectoplasms, or whatever today's term is. More likely, fraud. That's how Bigfoot footprints have been explained.

When I was learning to do hypnosis I had people experience visual hallucinations. But, in some people's scheme, the hallucinations are real and my believing they were induced by hypnosis is the fallacy.

I would love to know the evidence that extraterrestrials visited in 1956 and that we've reverse engineered extraterrestrial devices.

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## gregonejeep

Hello Patrick,

Want to know why I believe there is a supernatural world ? If this is your first read on this thread, then go back to my posts # 11,25,28,34,35 to name a few. I am not an alcoholic, a dope head, and I do not lie. And to my knowledge over the passed 40 years now, I have not been diagnosed with any mental defects that keep me from functioning normally. 

Whenever a person witnesses SN events, NO one is going to believe that person that witnessed the event. Simply because THEY were not there to witness the event when it happened, to see/hear for themselves.

 Even if I had a video camera recording during the mattress shaking event and had someone watch it, they would say I edited it. Or, that I had a paint shaker motor hidden under the bed bolted to the bed frame. None of which would be true. It happened just as I wrote it down, with my wife experiencing the same..

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## gregonejeep

QUOTE=patrickt;2761624]-why does every human lose 22g weight at the moment of death? Very few humans have been weighed as they die but my first thought, being quite familiar with death, if the bladder and bowels evacuate.  patrickt-why does every human lose 22g weight at the moment of death?
Very few humans have been weighed as they die but my first thought, being quite familiar with death, if the bladder and bowels evacuate.
-how can kids recall 'previous lives'
This has been debunked often. I have two kids. Neither have "recalled" previous lives although they have "imagined" them when playing games. My son was a pirate and my daughter was a princess. And why do people see a tunnel with a bright light as near-death experiences when they're Christians and see their reincarnation if they're Hindu?
-what are the orbs recorded on video at supposedly haunted locations?
Beats me. Did someone in the supernatural tell you I had all the answers. Not being gullible, I have no reason to believe they're ghosts, spirits, ectoplasms, or whatever today's term is. More likely, fraud. That's how Bigfoot footprints have been explained.

When I was learning to do hypnosis I had people experience visual hallucinations. But, in some people's scheme, the hallucinations are real and my believing they were induced by hypnosis is the fallacy.

I would love to know the evidence that extraterrestrials visited in 1956 and that we've reverse engineered extraterrestrial devices. [End Quote]

Good questions Patrick. It reads as if you are speaking of some of the theists belief, that ones immaterial soul actually has a material weight of about 22 grams. There has been a few doctors experiment with dying patients weight and even with the person's bodily fluids/solids evacuated, they could still not come up with a "fixed" numerical loss of weight, at ones death. Of which if they had, it may have given some credence to the theist's belief indicating that ones soul has materialistic weight.  No proven scientific or medical data exists that I know of, that has the factual conclusive answer to the 22 gram theory. 

Past lives and tunnels bright lights... People that have supposedly "died" and came back to life to write their "Afterlife" book, need to look up the definition of true clinical death. As if they had, they would not write in their book that they had died and then came back to life, to write a book. Because when a human body is declared dead, it means their heart and brain both are beyond bringing back to function even with machines. Dead is forever. 

But IMO, what happened to these people during their time of near death experience and their afterlife experience, "could" be true. As most tell of their "crossing over" and seeing their passed loved ones greeting them on the "other side". And then one of their passed loved ones tells them, " You have to go back now, it is not your time". And it is at this point the accident victim or surgery patient is resuscitated back to "life" and the NDE person "sees" themselves re-enter their body.  

This is where the lines REALLY divide, as to what people will believe.  Myself, I believe the "dead" person's soul/spirit while getting the signals the body it inhabits is in the act of dying with it's life sustaining organ(s) failing, it leaves the person's body. At which time it can "go" where ever it wants to, but it will adhere to the dying person's conscious desires. And I may be wrong, but I believe that whether one is a theist or an atheist their brain will be full of the memories of their loved ones, they are leaving behind at the actual time of their demise. And when our soul/sprit is released from our dead body, it will go to where our passed loves ones spirits will be, that have already passed over to the other "side". 

I have read a few good "afterlife" books and have taken most of them lightly, as I believe that dead, is dead.  While recollecting some old memories of one testimony that I read in an Afterlife book, the following may not coincide " word for word" with the original testimony written that I read. I recall the testimony as below, 

  A woman stated in the book that she had "died" on the surgery table and her story really got my attention. She had went in to a hospital for a surgery procedure to be done on her. Suddenly mid-surgery, she "flatlined" on the table and she stated that she was "floating" close to the ceiling, while looking downward. And that, she was looking down on her lifeless body, as the medical team was trying to resuscitate her on the surgical table. 

Suddenly she felt herself being pulled back down to the table, and then her next memory was her waking up in the recovery room.  After the nurse took her vitals, the woman asked the nurse was she in the surgery room while she was being operated on. The nurse said that she was working as the instrument technician during her surgery. The woman then asked the nurse, " Who was the doctor with the red beard standing beside my head, while I was being resuscitated" ??  

The nurse was taken back a bit by her question, as there were no doctors with a red beard performing the woman's surgery.  But, when the woman had flatlined and a PA announcement "Code Blue" to the surgery room was called, a red bearded doctor had came in from another surgical room to help out. 

Orbs, ghosts, past lives, reincarnation, bigfoot, all familiar topics that make the rounds in people's lives. Who knows if such things exist for a fact? One thing for sure, we are all going to die and we will get to find out or not, if they exist. My wife and I have both separately and together, experienced "supernatural" events. We are both believer's in that another unseen world or dimension exists, where our passed loved one's "spirits" exist. And it is our belief that at any time these "spirit's" if they choose to, can make themselves "known" to the person they left behind. 

ET's ??  The information I have posted to this thread so far, a lot of it I have learned from reading just one of the four books of an author that lived and died in the 1800's. Would anyone imagine that a man writing a book in the 1800's, would write about the existence of other human "like" life forms living on other planets ?  Well he did, and he got this information from astute and well respected "mediums" of his time, while using "spiritism".  

Yes, spiritism. The same religion/doctrine/philosophy the Scriptures admonish and the churches have demonized as the work of Satanic spirit entities. As they mislead humans to damnation with their righteous wisdom, while disguising themselves as "good" spirits.

 I do not care what "doctrines" a person has been taught to believe in. Because the ONE universal and absolute doctrine for humanity IMO, is the TRUTH. And how does one know what is the truth ? Because our senses of reasoning, critical thinking skills, logic and instinct if we USE them, will always show us the truth in any words spoken to us or that we read. And the truth or the falsehoods will become evident, when a person SEES the outcome of the words spoken or read.   

But wait, UFO's and ET's are all just B.S. written about by a man in the 1800's, that for Pete's sake, HAD "mediums" asking "spirit's" questions about ALL that pertains to God, Satan, Creation, life and death ?? Huh ??  And to beat all, these "spirit's" told the mediums in the 1800's, that we humans rate on the lower scale of importance to God's Providential plan.  And that, we human's on earth are actually considered a barbaric species and we will need many hundreds of years from the 1800's, to advance to the level of "spiritually" that we need to please God. 

And the "spirit's" also told the mediums, that once that "highly spiritual development of man" comes about, the earth will then only be populated with good people, that believe in God, and that will obey all of God's Laws. The deniers of God and the relentless sinners on earth they said, will be no more. 

Now, just look at the news today and the present status of our planet's inhabitants. Did these "spirits" that were communicated with in the 1800's get it right about we humans as a whole, being barbaric ? We have people now that kill their own babies from their rage, whore out their own daughters for their illegal drugs, slit their Grandma's throat for her money, and senseless killings of human beings being done every day somewhere. 

And UFO's ?? Did anyone watch last nights FN's Tucker C. report on the surge of UFO sightings lately going mostly unreported, by the other media ? And also see the retired Navy jet pilot as his guest, speak about how many pilots "used to have" many videos of UFO's taken from their jet's cockpit camera?  Are we inferior earth beings getting primed to be either taken over by another ET superior intellectual species or maybe even, just be wiped out all together by Star Trek type weaponry or even more viruses? Time will tell I suppose.   JMO

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usfan (05-20-2021)

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## gregonejeep

(Copied from another thread) Sharethehedge wrote >* [Quote]* I don't think I said the supernatural does not or CANNOT exist? (if I did I worded it poorly) I'm saying that there is no reason to ASSUME it does. Obviously the burden of proof rests on those who believe in the supernatural, not the "natural". Many believers in religions which require the supernatural to exist to support their claims simply ASSERT that it does, and/or assert that it has just as good a chance of existing as the natural. That's what puts a burr in my saddle  :Smiley20: 

The playing field of whether the supernatural exists or not is NOT "level." We can't assume that because there is the "natural" there must also be the SUPERnatural, as many would like to "slip in" as a premise. I hate to retread that well-worn expression that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" but I guess I just did because it is essential to our sanity  :Dontknow: 

If we accept the existence of the supernatural without extraordinary or overwhelming evidence, we are in danger of breaking down the "wall" that would otherwise protect us from DELUSION. What would constitute that level of evidence, should be that it is MORE likely to believe (i.e.) that a miracle has occurred, in a specific instance, than that it DIDN'T. There would have to be NO POSSIBLE EXPLANATION other than it was a real miracle, before we should accept it as such. IOW, the explanation against it being a miracle would have to be MORE "miraculous" than the supposed miracle itself. That's a HIGH "bar", but necessary to maintain a grip on reality. *[End Quote]*

I have copied STH's quote above that was his reply to my post in another thread. As to not derail that thread's OP any longer, I copied it here to my ROS thread. Of which IMO, is where our exchanges will be in a thread more suited for the topic. 

I do hope my doing so, has not violated any posting rules. If I have, then I understand if this post gets deleted.
 
But first, to be on the same page of understanding I will post my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (MWCD) of the word *supernatural.*
_1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
_
I cannot find any fault with the definition above, because those things of the supernatural themselves cannot be seen, as we can only see the effects caused by supernatural forces. And while knowing that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of the realm of the supernatural, no scientist will squander their grant money on trying to prove, the unprovable.  

 Therefore I agree with my MWCD, as they were left with one other respectable written source, that recognizes the realm of the supernatural. And that source is the Holy Bible, as it actually has in it the titles of the "entities/beings" that IMO, exist in the supernatural world. As my MWCD reads, _"of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil"._

But do these words being written in the Holy Bible stand as PROOF, the realm of the supernatural exist ?  It depends on the person's belief's really, and what I have learned is that we humans have a bit of a quandary on this topic.  While knowing the atheist or agnostic does not believe that God exists, equates to them NOT believing in the supernatural. But we believer's in God whether we like it or not, *are* making the statement that we believe in the supernatural.  

How could I make such a claim? Because what better definition of the supernatural can there be ?  We believe in the existence of a supreme deity we call God, of which is the Creator of ALL. Yet, this deity/being cannot be seen with our eyes, nor contacted, nor photographed, nor spoken with orally. Therefore, any of we humans that speaks, writes, or thinks about such topics as God or the supernatural will expose themselves to a LOT of questions asked of them, and at times even ridicule. Simply because we cannot PROVE for a *fact*, that God or the realm of the supernatural exists. 

Why does this happen to believer's though ? Because IMO, when believer's are professing their beliefs in God and the supernatural world, they are basically pushing their own natural and learned intellect, power of reasoning, and logic aside. Which to me, sets we believer's up as a easy target to hit by the non-believers. 

As all people (or should have) from the time of their first day in school as a 5-6 year old, were taught lessons about the subjects that we need to know in order to grow up and survive, in our physical and materialistic world. 

Therefore, as adults we naturally use our learned academic intellect to "dissect" the unseen, for it's *proof* that it exists or has ever existed. And while doing so, we use our materialistic/physical based intellect that we have acquired either by formal education or using our life's experiences. 

Following is my scenario in my attempt as it may be, to describe in the simplest format a scenario of the human mind/eyes vs. the "unseen"... 

"IE: We know as we drive over a bridge for the most part, the bridge will not fall down. As we have learned in school the bridge has HUGE concrete piers buried deep below the water, that supports the bridges steel or concrete vertical supports. Yet, at the same time we cannot "see' these below water concrete pier footings. But still, we drive over the bridge daily while not even thinking about what holds it up."

Therefore IMO, we are driving our cars across these bridges while truly expecting without even thinking, that we will get home that day safely. But what is it that one may call this act of thought ? I choose to call it faith. A faith in a unknown, while we know in our whole being that what we believe, is a fact to us. Why ? Because that unknown has been experienced "personally" by the person that is now proclaiming the unknown event to be true". 

But WTH does my above bridge scenario have to do with one believing or not, in the supernatural ? Because IMO, one does not have see the physical "component" to believe that it exists. One just needs to know that a unseen "entity" as one in the realm of the supernatural, does not have to be seen by their eyes, for them to see or feel it's effects. 

And for a fact, my wife and I both experienced a SN event where we did not see the "entity or force" making the event known to us. But we did see and feel the effects of the SN event, just as I wrote here. which is post #11 of this thread.

And to this day since that time of this SN event now 29 years ago, there is ONLY one word today that I would change in my original writing (in 2016 on TPF) about that SN event that happened to us. Because over the passed 29 years my quest for understanding the ROS, has increased my knowledge of how, and why, and what, at least to me... is the Realm of the Supernatural.

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## SharetheHedge

Jeep, I am not sure what you are asking me here, specifically? But I went back and read some more of your experiences in this thread (not ALL the posts because I just don't have the stamina at the moment) and it would seem that these experiences, taken together, sound like what most paranormal investigators would define as a HAUNTING?  :Jawdrop: 

As to the nature of some of the events you described, do you allow that unexplained noises and even moment of inanimate objects may be an effect by some force present in our universe/world which science hasn't detected or realized yet? That is, could what caused these experiences be part of our NATURAL world, and therefore NOT supernatural, but only UNEXPLAINED as of yet? 

Perhaps there are still, for example, some primitive tribes that consider thunder and lighting "supernatural"? But more advanced civilizations know that thunder and lightning are PART of our REALITY, and even fully explainable scientifically. So how do we know there IS a supernatural, and not just some NATURAL effects, (that may RARELY occur) that we just don't understand the source of yet?

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gregonejeep (08-24-2021)

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## gregonejeep

Good points made STH and I agree. As a person does have the tendency to put a event that happened to them that was unnatural, unexplained, unprovable and basically that is " out of this world",  in to the realm of the supernatural.  

Now that being said, my mattress shaking (MS) event defied ALL of my reasoning and logic. As everyone knows just as I do, a material object constructed of various solid, non transparent components (as our mattress was) that it takes a force of some kind being exerted on it, to make it move. 

And those forces identify themselves really, by the effects they have material objects. I'll start out with some of nature's most known forces that we humans may or may never, encounter at some point in time. 

Nature's Forces = Winds, floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, avalanches snow or rock, asteroid impacts and any other object that is defying gravity. Such as if a object is set on a table and someone tilts the table upwards high enough, the object will slide off.

Man made forces = any human, machine, or piece of manufactured equipment that pushes, pulls, lifts up, power drives downward, tows, digs, vibrates, or a component that is used to disintegrate or move an object with explosion. A building's structural components fail, which results in the sinking and collapsing of floors, walls. or roof's.  etc. on and on. 

Guess what STH, NONE of the above were involved in our MS event. Therefore to me, anything that can shake a queen sized mattress side to side rapidly with my 190 lbs (wish I weighed 190 today) still laying on top of it, was done so by a powerful force, one unseen by the eye.

And you are right STH about the "haunted" option as an explanation for the MS event. And in my original post about our MS event, I stated that my wife and I did not want to even think about, that our home may be haunted. As we married just two months prior and had bought the house as our first home together. And the words "Haunted House" takes on a different meaning when it is YOUR home, having a unseen and unwelcome visitor in it. No one wants to think that someone or something, is in their home and they cannot see it, but just it's effects. 

Because after thinking and studying various books about the supernatural for the passed 29.5 years now, I have a better grasp of these matters. Which has now, made me change my mind on ONE aspect of our MS event. And that is "who or what" did the mattress shaking that night ? As now looking back on it, I know it was not my departed Mom. 

Because after the MS event, I spent a LOT of time working and fixing on our home. And as I posted in this thread, whenever I tore the house up for a project "someone" in the house, had a "unseen" opinion about my work. 

And now today, I believe it was the soul/spirit of the man that built the house for he and his wife in 1960. And he must not have been happy with the changes that I made to the home and at times, he would let me know it. Therefore, I now see that erred 29 years ago while stating my Mom had honored our "after our death" pact , that we had made to each other many years before.  

Because "good" spirits like my Mom had, would not "haunt" a home, especially her son's. But the departed spirits of people that while in their flesh and blood bodies were really unpleasant people, can and sometimes DO stay in their homes they left behind. And they are called malevolent and even sometimes, demonic spirit's. JMO

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## SharetheHedge

> Good points made STH and I agree. As a person does have the tendency to put a event that happened to them that was unnatural, unexplained, unprovable and basically that is " out of this world",  in to the realm of the supernatural.  
> 
> Now that being said, my mattress shaking (MS) event defied ALL of my reasoning and logic. As everyone knows just as I do, a material object constructed of various solid, non transparent components (as our mattress was) that it takes a force of some kind being exerted on it, to make it move. 
> 
> And those forces identify themselves really, by the effects they have material objects. I'll start out with some of nature's most known forces that we humans may or may never, encounter at some point in time. 
> 
> Nature's Forces = Winds, floods, earthquakes, hurricanes, avalanches snow or rock, asteroid impacts and any other object that is defying gravity. Such as if a object is set on a table and someone tilts the table upwards high enough, the object will slide off.
> 
> Man made forces = any human, machine, or piece of manufactured equipment that pushes, pulls, lifts up, power drives downward, tows, digs, vibrates, or a component that is used to disintegrate or move an object with explosion. A building's structural components fail, which results in the sinking and collapsing of floors, walls. or roof's.  etc. on and on. 
> ...



I would say I am NOT an absolute skeptic concerning all events classified as paranormal. There seems to be SOME evidence for poltergeist and haunting cases, enough to make me wonder what's going on there? Skepticism, as well as belief, can be to a RELATIVE degree. 

Most of my skepticism regarding the "supernatural" pertains to the genre of the BIG "Cecille B. DeMille" type bible miracles, or Urban Legends which lack evidence but SHOULD exhibit MORE if they are true. Now if the evidence for those type of things CAN'T be examined or retested, it makes me MORE suspicious of the claims. 

In the case of the bible, there is a much greater possibility (IMO) that those miracles DIDN'T really happen, than that they DID. We can't rely on what someone just "wrote" when it is very possible that someone simply made it up at some point - especially when we are talking about turning water into wine or walking on water, or a BUNCH of dead believers coming alive and appearing to many that knew them. 

In short, it is more reasonable and rational to believe those miracles are LEGENDS, than that they actually happened. Still, I CANNOT claim they did NOT happen with 100% certainty, as I wasn't THERE, but the fact I wasn't there is not a real argument in FAVOR of believing they actually happened, either.

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## gregonejeep

Good points you have made STH,

Sure, one cannot PROVE for a fact the miracles written about in the Scripture's really happened. Now while being a bit tongue in cheek-ish here, we know that in the Biblical days no one carried a smart phone to be able to take pics of the miracles happening.

 Nor, were there any paper or electronic copies to be found where the coroners or forensic pathologist's reports were left anywhere to be discovered. Those of which, could have helped to prove or disprove those miracles performed over 2000 years ago now. Such as, when Jesus brought Lazarus back to life after he had been dead for 3+ days.

Even knowing this, we believer's still believe that Jesus performed His miracles while on earth, and why He did so.  Because back in the Biblical times just like today, if a person is professing to be able to do ANYTHING that is beyond a persons senses of reason and logic, they had better be able to prove it. 

Which means that person is going to have do "something" that goes way beyond, ones sense of reason and logic. Just so, that people can see with their own eyes, the miracle and state that it was/is, a "provable fact". Otherwise, the old adage "all hat and no cattle" will become that person's new name.

Speaking for myself now, I did not become a believer in Christ just because I read of the miracles He performed in the NT. I became a believer in Christ because just as I posted early in thread, it was " proven" to me the power of God/Christ Holy Spirit existed. 

And as I have mentioned many times already, no one of sane mind and good character will want to speak up about their SN experience. As they know they will be viewed by skeptics as one having delusions. Or at minimum, they will be viewed as a person that should be wearing a name tag labeled, " I am a loon". 

Simply because for anyone to believe ones SN event testimony, they would have had to be with the person, at the exact time the SN was occurring. Because just like our mattress shaking event, no amount of my speaking or writing about the event in detail, PROVES to anyone it really happened. Only my wife and I, truly KNOW that it happened. 

But let's say, what if my wife and I were of the "type" people that had a video recorder in operation, while we slept and it clearly recorded the MS event ? Any skeptic viewing the "live" tape/disc recording of the MS event, would simply say it had been edited to make the MS event look real. 

Or even better they would probably say, that I had bolted a paint shaker motor under the mattress frame. Just so that I would have a video to put on UTOOB to make $$$$ with it.  :Smile:  

Therefore, everyone should know if they do not already know by now, what to do if they experience a SN event. And that is, rather than trying to get help from people while trying to make sense of what happened to them. Instead, they should do as I have learned to do from now on. 

And that is, just chalk up their SN event as one of those things that, "go bump in to the night" and let it go. JMO

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## SharetheHedge

> Even knowing this, we believer's still believe that Jesus performed His miracles while on earth, and why He did so. Because back in the Biblical times just like today, if a person is professing to be able to do ANYTHING that is beyond a persons senses of reason and logic, they had better be able to prove it.


But not if those miracles were only written about 40 or more years after they occurred. The time we are talking about had very little "fact-checking" capabilities. If someone invented a story about a miracle that happened years ago, how were they supposed to track down someone who was supposedly there, and how could they be sure of that person's account IF he said it was true? 

"Urban legends" exist and evolve even today. For instance, there are probably hundreds of living witnesses today, who claim to have seen Bigfoot. Yet no one has ever shot one, or found a dead body or skeleton, AND these reports are coming from MANY states and areas, not just the Pacific NW, so why hasn't substantial proof been found SOMEWHERE? 

I'll bet I could find 500 people who have claimed to have seen ELVIS after he died. Legends are very easily invented and proliferate even easier. Someone says did you hear that such and such a miralce occurred somewhere and many people will start to BELIEVE it, and relate it to others. It's human nature/psychology. Once it gets rolling, it's momentum becomes hard to stop, because the mere fact that so many believe it is then used to support it's authenticity.

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## SharetheHedge

> Even knowing this, we believer's still believe that Jesus performed His miracles while on earth, and why He did so. Because back in the Biblical times just like today, if a person is professing to be able to do ANYTHING that is beyond a persons senses of reason and logic, they had better be able to prove it.



2000 years ago, there was a LACK of critical thought, access to documents, skeptical investigators, or scientific methodology. If anything, people of that time were MORE inclined to believe in miracles and fables, if anything. They might be more inclined to believe something that was written down, but for many years before the accounts of Jesus were written they were only ORALLY transmitted.  

There were NO newspapers, telephones, photographs, or journalists that could substantiate such claims, or DENY them. It was an age when supernatural legends proliferated, many more than had to do with only Jesus, and many that Christians today would no doubt DISMISS. However, when it comes to person's CHOSEN belief, those believers, naturally, get a lot less objective and critical  :Dontknow:

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## gregonejeep

> But not if those miracles were only written about 40 or more years after they occurred. The time we are talking about had very little "fact-checking" capabilities. If someone invented a story about a miracle that happened years ago, how were they supposed to track down someone who was supposedly there, and how could they be sure of that person's account IF he said it was true? 
> 
> "Urban legends" exist and evolve even today. For instance, there are probably hundreds of living witnesses today, who claim to have seen Bigfoot. Yet no one has ever shot one, or found a dead body or skeleton, AND these reports are coming from MANY states and areas, not just the Pacific NW, so why hasn't substantial proof been found SOMEWHERE? 
> 
> I'll bet I could find 500 people who have claimed to have seen ELVIS after he died. Legends are very easily invented and proliferate even easier. Someone says did you hear that such and such a miralce occurred somewhere and many people will start to BELIEVE it, and relate it to others. It's human nature/psychology. Once it gets rolling, it's momentum becomes hard to stop, because the mere fact that so many believe it is then used to support it's authenticity.


Once again STH, you have used the strongest tool that we humans have IMO, to find the "soundness" of any thought that we may have that gets processed in our minds. The same tool that is also used in our minds in literally microseconds, whenever we are faced with any situation.

A situation where at that exact moment, our brain makes the decision for us to act upon it, or not. Such as a situation that we may encounter that could bring us harm or diversely, may bring us good. And to me, I call this tool we all have our sense of "reasoning". 

I am not going to spend a hour of my slow typing skills while trying to convince you STH, whether or not Jesus performed TRUE miracles here on earth. Or, that anyone proclaiming to have been involved in the event deemed as a miracle, was actually involved in a true miracle.

Or, was what my wife and I experienced a TRUE supernatural event or was it just a incident of two people experiencing joint mental delusions, synchronized in perfect timing ?

 I will pass on trying to convince or prove to anyone any longer, the above scenarios REALLY did happen for a fact. Simply because you STH and every reader of this post, knows that I cannot do so. 

 Instead I am going to ask of you STH , a very simple and honest question. One that I am asking of you with no malice, offence, or ridicule being expressed or implied by me. 

Have you STH while using your own sense of reasoning, ever asked yourself the question in blue below?

I wonder what it is that makes me want to spend so much of whatever time I have left of my life, on religious topics? All while I try to get people that post about those things they believe to be a fact, to PROVE to me their belief IS a fact.  (IE: God/ Christ, Heaven, Hell, Afterlife, spirits, etc.)

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SharetheHedge (08-29-2021)

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## SharetheHedge

> Once again STH, you have used the strongest tool that we humans have IMO, to find the "soundness" of any thought that we may have that gets processed in our minds. The same tool that is also used in our minds in literally microseconds, whenever we are faced with any situation.
> 
> A situation where at that exact moment, our brain makes the decision for us to act upon it, or not. Such as a situation that we may encounter that could bring us harm or diversely, may bring us good. And to me, I call this tool we all have our sense of "reasoning". 
> 
> I am not going to spend a hour of my slow typing skills while trying to convince you STH, whether or not Jesus performed TRUE miracles here on earth. Or, that anyone proclaiming to have been involved in the event deemed as a miracle, was actually involved in a true miracle.
> 
> Or, was what my wife and I experienced a TRUE supernatural event or was it just a incident of two people experiencing joint mental delusions, synchronized in perfect timing ?
> 
>  I will pass on trying to convince or prove to anyone any longer, the above scenarios REALLY did happen for a fact. Simply because you STH and every reader of this post, knows that I cannot do so. 
> ...



Of course I have, no doubt because I used to believe very strongly but gradually lost faith over the years as many of these questions that I pose were read by me or occurred to me. That is why I do NOT TOTALLY discount the possibility that the Christian faith may be basically true after all.  

I am well aware also, of the normal Christian response to the possibility that someone may actually have "saving faith" and then LOSE it, which is - "You never REALLY believed in the first place". That attitude has it's roots in the fear that it might happen to THEM and they don't want to believe that is possible, for their own sake. Let me say, in all honesty, I am convinced I DID believe, though of course I can't prove that to others who may suggest I could not have, just as you cannot "prove" your paranormal experience to others. 

Let me just say, after I believed, I "testified" to EVERYONE I knew. My family thought I was crazy, my best friends wanted nothing more to do with me, a GF I was obsessed with left me, and I handed out Chick Tracts on street corners (LOL as to that last one). I cannot claim I was physically persecuted but I sacrificed a lot which had been dear to my heart as I believed God would have it that way.  

Perhaps I DO still believe on some level, and that drives me to challenge believer's in the HOPES that they can answer some of that which gives me doubt? I try NOT to psycho-analyze myself because that is too subjective and ends in confusion. Rather than trying to "destroy Christianity" as some here have accused me of, though, I am just stating the problems I have become aware of with the faith to see if any CAN make sense of them. So far, it doesn't appear they can, IMHO  :Dontknow: 

When I was a believer, I believed OVERWHELMINGLY, with some occasional small doubts. Now I DOUBT overwhelmingly, with allowing some possibility that I may still believe on SOME level. This occurred over a span of MANY years. But as to my previous level of faith's legitimacy, let's just say if you pray that a close friend be healed of a terminal illness, or that an "infant death syndrome" baby of another close friend be RESURRECTED, and you are honestly surprised when they AREN'T, how could that NOT be real faith? THAT was how much I believed at that time.

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gregonejeep (08-30-2021)

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## gregonejeep

I appreciate that you STH, have taken the time to post your reply to my previous post. In doing so, you have helped me to understand something that has puzzled me for a couple of years now. And that was, how could a person that is so knowledgeable of the Scripture's as you are, spend so much time trying to get believer's to post WHY, they believe in a particular Scripture. And I also see now, that you and I have had  basically the same experiences, after we became believers.

We both found out that when one gets on their new path to become a Christian, there are a lot of obstacles to overcome and personal sacrifices to make in doing so. And one of the greatest obstacles one has to overcome, is the people in their lives they care the most about, will be uncomfortable with the "new" person they have become as a "baby" Christian.  And it appears that you STH, have done just what I did. 

As back in 1981 after I become a believer, I found myself experiencing the obstacles that I wrote about above, so I made a choice. And as a male in my 20's at that time, my choice was to not pursue my path to becoming a Christian. Because I chose at that time, to live my life as most people do in their 20's. We drank booze, cursed, partied, had sex without commitments. We had FUN, while doing what our sinful nature was prompting us to do.  

And as any newbie or devout Christian knows, one cannot live a life of sinning and be a TRUE Christian at the same time. Because being a Christian is not a badge of honor that a person can get to carry around with them, like one does with their renewable driver's license. 

As being a Christian is a WAY of life that one lives from the time they first believe, until the time they take their last breath. And their every day of life lived as a Christian should be lived, while adhering to the teachings of Christ. 

Looking back on it all now, I sometimes wished that I did not have the "spiritual" experience that happened to me in 1981, that made me become a believer. And for two reasons..

1. As a believer, I now know that when I die my bodies death, is not the END of my existence. 
2. In various Scripture's one can read where there is a lesson to be learned, about people that become believer's and then do not choose to walk the whole walk, to Christ. And that lesson basically reads that it is better for a man to have never known the gifts of Christ, than for one to know them and then turn their back on Christ. 

I know there are more Scriptures stating such, but below is just one that I can recall right now. 

KJV Proverbs 14:14..*The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.*

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SharetheHedge (08-30-2021)

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## SharetheHedge

> I appreciate that you STH, have taken the time to post your reply to my previous post. In doing so, you have helped me to understand something that has puzzled me for a couple of years now. And that was, how could a person that is so knowledgeable of the Scripture's as you are, spend so much time trying to get believer's to post WHY, they believe in a particular Scripture. And I also see now, that you and I have had  basically the same experiences, after we became believers.
> 
> We both found out that when one gets on their new path to become a Christian, there are a lot of obstacles to overcome and personal sacrifices to make in doing so. And one of the greatest obstacles one has to overcome, is the people in their lives they care the most about, will be uncomfortable with the "new" person they have become as a "baby" Christian.  And it appears that you STH, have done just what I did. 
> 
> As back in 1981 after I become a believer, I found myself experiencing the obstacles that I wrote about above, so I made a choice. And as a male in my 20's at that time, my choice was to not pursue my path to becoming a Christian. Because I chose at that time, to live my life as most people do in their 20's. We drank booze, cursed, partied, had sex without commitments. We had FUN, while doing what our sinful nature was prompting us to do.  
> 
> And as any newbie or devout Christian knows, one cannot live a life of sinning and be a TRUE Christian at the same time. Because being a Christian is not a badge of honor that a person can get to carry around with them, like one does with their renewable driver's license. 
> 
> As being a Christian is a WAY of life that one lives from the time they first believe, until the time they take their last breath. And their every day of life lived as a Christian should be lived, while adhering to the teachings of Christ. 
> ...



Your problem is not belief in God but belief in your salvation. I am curious to know what sort of influence you had in your conversion? Was it from a certain Church or individual, a book or a particular sermon? 

The most common belief among evangelical Christians (I think?) is OSAS ("once saved always saved") though there are groups or individuals that believe "you can lose it." The truth is that ALL Christians still sin after their conversion, so it is very easy to begin to fear your born again experience might not have been real or you have "fallen away" so to speak. I knew and fellowshipped with MANY Christians during my early years of faith and from those I came to know most intimately I esimate that nearly ALL sometimes wonder if they are saved at times, simply because they are so accutely aware of their shortcomings, though not all reach a debilitating level of doubt. 

If it helps you, just realize that IF you are a believer, (which doesn't seem to be your problem?) that IN ITSELF is evidence you are the "real thing", and that to DOUBT your salvation is, if anything, MORE upsetting to God than your particular sins (which ALL Christians still commit to an extent). DOUBT that God has really saved you, is the most PROBLEMATIC SIN. So don't doubt your salvation if indeed you truly believe.

It is BECAUSE you believe, that you are saved. That's the mindset you need to practice  :Smiley20:

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gregonejeep (08-30-2021)

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## gregonejeep

Well STH, after 40 years now from my "spiritually enlightenment" experience, my belief that God/Christ exists is still unwavering. 

And now since that you have mentioned it, I will expand on your statement about the topic of being "saved". I do not know if you have read my post or not, where I wrote about me trying to find a church to attend back in 1981. As I was searching for more spiritual knowledge and a church that I could go to, just so I could have a "fellowship" with like minded people. People that were in the church just as I would be doing, which was to learn more about God/Christ and the Christian life. 

At that time in one of the Baptist's churches I visited (I went to a Baptist church as a kid), I asked a pastor a question. As I wanted to find out, if what they were teaching at their church was at least close, to what my KJV Holy Bible's Scripture's had taught me at that time. 

I still recall the question that I asked the Baptist pastor 40 years ago, about the topic of one being "saved" And looking back on it today, it was THE question that when it was answered by the pastor, did more to make me turn away from organized religions, than any other "cause" that I could claim for myself doing so. . Here it is again and maybe not word for word as I posted it in the past, but it is the same conversation in it's "message". As it went....

GOJ asked Pastor Jones (PJ and a fake name)...  I have a question for you about one's salvation. I understand that when a person's makes the decision to repent of their sins, and they want to turn their life over to Christ, they can then be saved through baptism. 

PJ... That is correct, in an abbreviated version of course.

GOJ.... Let's say, there is a convicted serial killer on death row, that for 40 years of his life he spent torturing, molesting and killing women and children. And just 5 days before he was to be executed, he requested of his prison guard to have the prison chaplain visit him. His request was granted and the killer told the chaplain, that he had "found Jesus".  And then, he tells the chaplain that he wants to be granted a "deathbed salvation" of which the chaplain did so.

PJ... O.K. Yes, I have heard about or maybe even have read somewhere, that sometimes prisoner's do make those requests.

GOJ... I have also and now my related question to you. Will that killer's deathbed "salvation" be just the same as say, a person that was saved and baptized at 13? A person that from the day of their baptism, lived a devout Christian's life for their remaining 65 years ?

PJ... I know this is probably not the answer you are looking for, but yes. Because if the killer in his heart was being truthful about his request, then he will be saved. Just the same as your 13 year old was saved.

GOJ... But how can that be, for someone so evil and heinous as this killer's life had been ? 

PJ... Well, I feel sure my answer will not make any sense to you. But one must remember what the Scriptures states on this subject. As in the Scripture's with Christ's words written, He very plainly tells the people what they have to do, to be saved and to be granted eternal life by Him. And in these same Scripture's written, one will not read where that Christ made a list of any stipulations or exemptions required, for a person to be granted salvation by Him. 

On my drive back to my Mom's apt. where I was living with her at the time, I could not get PJ's words out of my head. How could anyone be "saved" such as the person in my serial killer example ?? Where is the justice for humanity when such behavior by people can be "wiped" clean, by just one ceremony of words and water ? 

Therefore, a person can kill and maim and make their fellow human beings suffer for their pleasure, and then 40 years later be saved ?  What is one to learn from knowing they can choose to be a hardcore sinner (or a evil killer) all their life and then when their death nears, they can get their deathbed salvation ? 

What is the motivation for one to refrain from sin, while knowing they can get a "last call" redemption ? Why not just live a life of sinful fun while gambling, drinking, partying, stealing, knocking down old people, or having marital affairs with their high school sweetheart ? 

And sure enough, when I got home I pulled out my Mom's old KJV Holy Bible that since she passed, has been mine. And just as PJ told me, written below is just 4 of many...

KJV John 6:47 ... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life

KJV John 3:16...For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

KJV John 10:28.  ..And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

KJV John 3:5...Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

In NO way STH, am I stating or insinuating in the above, that Christ's words of salvation should be taken lightly or even questioned. As my asking PJ that question now 40 years ago, has turned out to be one of my greater mistakes in life. 

Simply because rather than staying on the path of my becoming a Christian 40 years ago, I listened to my belligerent, obstinate mind and used PJ's answer to justify staying out of church. And now at almost 70 now, I do not see any "do over's" for me on the horizon.

 Hopefully there may be someone reading this epistle of mine here, that will use it to avoid making my same mistake. And that mistake was, my not following through on a path to become a Christian. Back in 1981, when a spirit from God/Christ "beckoned " my spirit within me, to do so.

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## gregonejeep

In my previous post I wrote that I had made a huge mistake over 40 years ago, for not taking the journey to become a Christian. A journey where that I firmly believe I was "invited" by God/Christ to take, when I had this "spiritual awakening" I wrote about in my posts early in this thread. Click here if interested > experience.

Now today, I can look back on why that I did not pursue the journey to Christendom, when I was 
"prompted" to do so 40 years ago.  As of today, I believe my mistake was that while I was elevated in my "spiritual" being", I never selected a church to attend. One that I would have become a member of and eventually, would have received my baptism.  Instead, I chose to go it "alone" in my Bible study.

But why can't a person that has had their soul/spirit awakened to Christ as I did 40 years ago, go it "alone" ?  It is because IMO, a person MUST understand that once their soul/spirit has been awakened to Christ, they are now an "infant" to Christendom. And infants to Christ, are generally called "baby" Christians for a reason. 

Because just as human infants have to have the care and guidance from their parent's, the baby Christian's need to have "parent's also. And those parent's IMO, are the fellow Christians and clergy in the church they need to attend. I would endeavor to say that anyone reading this post may ask," Why do I need a clergy or fellow Christians for me to learn how to be come a Christian ? As I can read the Scripture's and interpret them, just fine all by myself". 

Because in IMO once that a person's soul/spirit is awakened to Christ, from that point forward their mind is going to have a "war of thoughts" waging in it. And these opposing thoughts in the person's mind, will be one's *materialistic intellect vs. their spiritual intellect.* As we know, a infant's brain from the time of birth begins getting "programmed" with materialistic intellect. As the infant sees and hears all that is going on, in their new world around them. 

And the infant's materialistic intellect continues to grow necessarily, as they are taught by their parents, teachers, mentor's etc. about those things one has to learn just in order to grow up and survive in our material world. A world that we learn truly exists, simply because we use our sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch. We may use any or all of our senses to help us prove to ourselves that  something REALLY exists. And these same senses will be used as we learn our powers of reasoning, logic and even critical thinking skills< ( a skill IMO, acquired by those that grew up listening, a LOT more times than they spoke). 

Yet, as the human being grows from an infant to an adult they will not acquire any "spiritual" intellect, unless they choose to (or were made to as a youth) attend a church.  Therefore, it is easy to understand at least to me, why the baby Christian NEEDS the fellowship and guidance of the church members and clergy.

Simply because IMO, when the "newbie" to the spiritual learning about God/Christ attends a church and while doing so, it will help them greatly to get through their mental "war of thoughts" more quickly. As in due time, the baby Christian while attending the church and acquiring the knowledge of the Scriptures, they will eventually acquire their "faith".  

As it is the Christian's "faith" that allows then to take a firm stand against a non--believer's scrutiny, in any debate. Simply because IMO, their mind's war of using their materialistic intellect vs. spiritual intellect, has come to a consenting truce whenever thinking about or discussing Scriptures. 

As the devout Christian will use their faith and spiritual intellect and less materialistic intellect, to answer any question about the Scripture questions being asked of them. And they will not budge from their answer they have given, as they will say something like, " The Scripture's are the divine and infallible writings of God, given to those He chose to write them down for man to read". 

And they are able to do so, because they TRULY believe in their heart and mind what the Scripture states, as being a fact. Even though what they are stating to be true and a fact, cannot be seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched. And I will state here without posting any statistical proof, that IMO these devout Christians became so while attending and growing in spiritual knowledge, while attending a church. 

And what happens to those people like me, that once knew the "feeling" of their soul/spirit being invited to Christ but instead, chose to not take the journey ? Or maybe they have chosen before actually becoming a devout Christian, to drop out of the church or their study ?  IMO a lot of them will do, as I do. They will get on internet boards and post on religion forums.  :Smile:  

And they will use their good knowledge of the Scripture's they acquired, to ask their questions to the devout Christians. And since they never fully educated their soul/spiritual intellect to its potential, they will be using their materialistic intellect to discern the answers given to them by the devout Christian's.  

And the questions from the non-believer's or the "almost a believer" to the devout Christians, will usually end up resembling the ones as follows, "Just WHY or HOW, can you believe in "something" to be a FACT that is written in the Scriptures? Because whenever a person that is NOT a devout Christian uses their five senses, logic, reason, or critical thinking skills, they just HAVE to question the validity and soundness of your Christian beliefs".  

 ( a hint for their answer. The unseen spiritual world exists, just as surely as the material worlds exist)  

All JMO

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## Great American/banned

> Many state it exists, and as many will say it does not exist. And even many Christians do not feel comfortable speaking on the subject, even though their fervent faith in the existence of God...falls in to this realm. I like to start my topics by using my source for the* definition of a word*, which is my old large Webster's Collegiate Dictionary sitting on my office shelf.
> 
> My WCD defines the word *Supernatural*:
> 
> "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. esp: of or related to God or a god, demigod, *spirit* or devil. Departing from what is normal esp: so as to transcend the Laws of Nature ".
> 
> As I stated in the Atheist thread, people that do believe in the supernatural (SN) whether they are a Christian or not, will be "reserved" about stating their own SN experiences. Simply because they will use caution doing so, for fear they will be perceived as one that is delusional, irrational or even having other mental or societal "disorders". 
> 
> One must use caution also, when reading or listening to people's SN experiences. Because as we know magicians, illusionists, card readers, mind readers and even television shows may use the premise of the SN to make a paycheck. This thread is not for those people or their customers to post their SN experience, that was based on a *motive.*
> ...


Here is my understanding:

There is Nature, the things and laws of nature, and the things of nature are subject to natural laws and the laws of physics.

Of course, this was all created by God.

When we go beyond nature, either into the spiritual realm, or we see acts that defy the laws on nature (i.e. miracles) then we are now into the Supernatural. 

This can include the forces of both good and evil.

I am not sure why you say that Christians do not feel comfortable speaking on the subject. I can only surmise that the word Supernatural evoke images of witchcraft and voodoo and the like and they don't like that stuff. Some of it is fake, but some is real, and they would fall  under the "evil" category I mentioned.

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## MisterVeritis

> Here is my understanding:
> 
> There is Nature, the things and laws of nature, and the things of nature are subject to natural laws and the laws of physics.
> 
> Of course, this was all created by God.
> When we go beyond nature, either into the spiritual realm, or we see acts that defy the laws on nature (i.e. miracles) then we are now into the Supernatural. 
> 
> This can include the forces of both good and evil.
> 
> I am not sure why you say that Christians do not feel comfortable speaking on the subject. I can only surmise that the word Supernatural evoke images of witchcraft and voodoo and the like and they don't like that stuff. Some of it is fake, but some is real, and they would fall  under the "evil" category I mentioned.


Where do good and evil reside? Can you give me a "real world" example of supernatural evil (or good)?

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## Great American/banned

> Where do good and evil reside? Can you give me a "real world" example of supernatural evil (or good)?


My views of good and evil are the Biblical views on good and evil, which I shall not debate.


For the purpose of this thread, I simply state that there is good and evil and leave the details to the reader.

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## gregonejeep

> Here is my understanding:
> 
> There is Nature, the things and laws of nature, and the things of nature are subject to natural laws and the laws of physics.
> 
> Of course, this was all created by God.
> 
> When we go beyond nature, either into the spiritual realm, or we see acts that defy the laws on nature (i.e. miracles) then we are now into the Supernatural. 
> 
> This can include the forces of both good and evil.
> ...


You surmise correctly GA. I have found that Christians are not comfortable with speaking about the Supernatural, because they instantly associate the word with witches, haunted houses and spooky spirits, etc. And as it should be, because anyone on their journey to Christendom or that is a Christian, should keep their thoughts clear of such "evil".  But... 

As I have found out since I started this thread, the Christians are not really willing to discuss my belief in the Realm of the Supernatural. Of which I find ironic, because as I have mentioned on this thread more than once that when one prays, they are using the Real of the Supernatural whether they want to admit it or not. 

How in the world did I come up with this belief of mine ? One just needs to read the Scriptures and they will find as it is written,

KJV John 4: 24.... God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV 1 Corinthians 2:21..For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

KJV Romans 8:16..The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Take note of the Scriptures using the word *spirit*. Most people prefer to use the word soul which is fine also. Whenever a Christian prays, they have in their heart the strong conviction that God/Christ will hear their prayer. A prayer which may either be one of worship or may be a request for their very sick loved ones recovery.

A bit tongue in cheek now, but I do not know to date of anyone having a email address or 5G connection to God/Christ. So how are we to sunrise that one's prayer's are being communicated? IMO, the answer is in the Scripture's above as I believe that man's soul/spirit is communicating with the Spirit of God/Christ. 

But how can I make such a statement? Because we know that no one can PROVE their act of prayer to God/Christ, was anything other than the person having just spent a minute talking to themselves. Yet I know of a few people that it was made evident to those around them, that person's prayer(s) were answered. 

And how IMO. did these prayer requests/answers/transactions take place ? IMO, they took place because a persons uses their soul/spirit to communicate with the Spirit of God/ Christ. But wait, isn't it those "spirits" on earth that most people immediately assume to be bad, evil, and to MANY even non-existent ?

How does my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary define a "spirit" ? ...

1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2: A. supernatural being or essence: such asa capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT
B. SOUL  

And in fairness here I will post what my MWCD also states about what a spirit may be, of which supports my belief as to why Christians do not like to discuss the Realm of the Supernatural.

c: an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible specifically : GHOST 
d: a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being


O.K. I stated above that a person's prayer to God/Christ CAN be answered. But how can this be ?  Well, I am not going to post my answer here right now. Because with 153 + posts to this thread and with the  majority of them being mine, it is apparent that a VERY small amount of people reading this thread, really believe what I am writing. 

And that is fine, because it is human nature to not believe something someone else writes about they have experienced. Simply because they were not there at the time, to witness for themselves what the person stated they experienced to be a fact. And I guess the old adage applies here also that reads,

 " Just because someone says it, doesn't mean it's true".   :Smile:   JMO

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## Great American/banned

@gregonejeep I am a big believer of miracles. As a Catholic I believe in the intercession of the saints and many miracles that have occurred over the centuries. These can also be called supernatural. 

I'll bet if you talk to more Catholic Christians about the supernatural (knowledgeable ones that is, like me) you might find a more receptive audience.

I would like to make one correction, if I may:





> How does my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary define a "spirit" ? ...
> 
> 1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
> 2: A. supernatural being or essence: such asa capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT
> B. SOUL


Spirit and soul are actually two different things.

*The soul* is the animating force of the body. In fact, in Latin, the world for "soul" is *anima*, from where we gat the word _animation_.

All living things have souls. (We could dive into that deeper and discuss St Thomas Aquinas' differentiation between the sensitive souls of animals and the rational souls of men, but lets not for now.)

*Spirit* is actually a nature of a being. For example: Angels are spirit. They have no body, they exist in the spiritual realm. There are spiritual beings and non-spiritual beings like animals and trees.

*MAN* is the only being that is both spiritual and corporeal. We live on earth in physical bodies, but when those bodies are finished our spirit lives on. We are unique among Gods creation.

What do you think about that

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## gregonejeep

> @gregonejeep I am a big believer of miracles. As a Catholic I believe in the intercession of the saints and many miracles that have occurred over the centuries. These can also be called supernatural. 
> 
> I'll bet if you talk to more Catholic Christians about the supernatural (knowledgeable ones that is, like me) you might find a more receptive audience.
> 
> I would like to make one correction, if I may:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, thank you GA for making a positive contribution to my thread here. It was getting lonely posting to myself, while I was started to read as a person that was experiencing their cheese sliding off of their cracker. (name the movie, oldies,) My apologies in advance GA, as I really wish that I could use at least some brevity while trying to make my points on this thread. But for some reason I cannot seem to do it. For now, I am just going to blame it on the double jabs I got.  :Smile: 

I feel sure GA, that with the amount of posting you have been doing since the short time you joined TPF, that you have not taken the time to read any or at least many of my "epistles" that I have written in this thread. If you had, then you will read where that your opinion and mine are not that far apart on the subject of  the Realm of the Supernatural. The invisible world/dimension to the human eye, that is also written about in the Scriptures. 

And I have found that it is at this point in time, that ones thinking about God/Christ and man's "religion's" is where a person will find themselves getting in to a "precarious" position. One that I have found myself in now for many years. And what is this precarious position and how does one KNOW they are in it ? 
As IMO, this path to "precariousness" starts happening whenever a person such as I becomes a believer in God/Christ, of which I wrote about happening to me starting in post # 12 of this thread.  And I wrote above in my post about what can/will happen to a person when they become a believer, yet they do as I did 40 years ago. Which is, they became a believer but choose NOT pursue the journey to Christ, to become a devout Christian. (DC) 

And just what is it specifically that IMO, is "precarious" about a person that becomes a believer, yet that chooses to not become a devout Christian? I believe that the DC while participating in the study of the Scriptures with the fellowship of their church members and the guidance of their clergy, will unknowingly over the years build a "invisible wall of faith" around them. 

And this invisible wall of faith protects the DC from allowing any spoken or written words that are contrary to the Scripture's/doctrines of Christianity, to even "register" in to their intellect. And to me, this is why one can easily see both in life or on any religious forum, a thread of commonality that runs through DC's.

And this invisible thread becomes noticeable the most, whenever a DC is debating with an atheist/agnostic. As the DC will NOT go on and on and on, while trying to prove their beliefs to a non-believer. Because they KNOW in the heart, mind and soul that what they believe is "right" with God. And that is loosely speaking, the Scriptures are the divine and infallible writings of the inspired men of the biblical times, that were the "transcribers" for God.   

But the new believer just as I became 40 years ago, has to build this "wall" of faith around them while attending their church of choice. Of which to me, could be perceived in our material world much like any construction main support wall that gets built. As it must be built from the bottom up and be completed all the way to the top as needed, to where it can safely bear the weight of the load that it will be bearing. 

And that load to a new believer, will be them keeping their doubts at bay caused by their powers of reason, logic, common sense and even some people's critical thinking skills. Those attributes human's have that will "tell" them that if something can not be seen, heard, tasted, touched or smelled, then it is NOT real.  

Therefore, the believer that completes their "wall" of faith will become a DC and will then teach and adhere to the Scriptures to the "T".   But what happens to the person as I, that still believes yet chose to never complete their wall of faith and become a DC ? 

ONE, we have a big problem. As IMO anyone that becomes a true believer does not get the luxury of one day, just becoming a non-believer. As we have experienced something that is, "out of this world" and our memory will just not put that experience, in our brains recycle file. TWO, in the Christian world we are known as "backsliders" and there are a few Scriptures that write of what happens to backsliders, which is not a good thing. 

And now directly to the "precarious" part.  IMO believers such as I that did not build their wall of faith to where it could bear the load of doubt, "may/can/or will no longer take ALL of the Scripture's as infallible or indisputable. And this happens IMO, simply because we never completed the task of building our spiritual intellect to the level of a DC, to where it could be a strong opponent to our materialistic intellect. 

And when this happens to a believer, they may do as I did and started reading MANY other sources besides the Scripture's about the topic's of creation, religion, the supernatural, spirituality, etc. Along with those "things" that a person may experience, that only the person experiencing them can attest to as being a fact, that really happened to them. 

Now with the above 'groundwork" laid GA, just so that you know where I am speaking "from". I'll address your "correction" reply regarding the definitions of soul and spirit in my next epistle to this thread tomorrow morning early, if I am still breathing. JMO

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Great American/banned (11-12-2021)

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## Great American/banned

^ That is quite a post. Thank you, and thanks for thanking *me.*

I think I understand you. I agree with most of it, although I am sure we have our disagreements which you very politely and diplomatically referenced here:

" . . . _And when this happens to a believer, they may do as I did and started reading MANY other sources besides the Scripture's about the topic's of creation, religion, the supernatural, spirituality, etc_.  . . . . "

Perhaps we will have a polite respectful discussion about that in another thread so that this thread does not get derailed.

I suppose, based on your criteria, I am an oddity in this regard: You said that ". . _whenever a DC is debating with an atheist/agnostic. As the DC will NOT go on and on and on, while trying to prove their beliefs to a non-believer_ . . "

I am a DC, and yet I do go on and have a hard time walking away from lies and false posts. Perhaps "pride" is my weakness. It is so hard to walk away from someone that is lying about your faith.  :Smile:  

Well, I look forward to your response to the specific I wrote about soul and spirit. Allow me to flesh it out a bit, and please forgive the cut and paste:




*II. "BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE"*

*362* The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore _willed_ by God.

*363* In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human _life_ or the entire human _person_.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the _spiritual principle_ in man.

*364* The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232
.
Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233
*365* The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

*366* The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

*367* Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

*368* The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the _heart_, in the biblical sense of the depths of one's being, where the person decides for or against God.239

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## gregonejeep

Well GA, I have read your reply above twice now. And as I always try to do when reading a person's words, I try to be subjective. All while knowing that few people will or CAN agree, with another person on ANY topic.  

And to this GA, after I read your proclamation above where that you claim to be a devout Christian (DC), I went over and read your posts in the "Noah" thread. Of which I see now, that you are banned from posting in any longer. And I read in your post above, where that you justify your nasty replies to a poster simply because you admit being prideful, but just cannot tolerate anyone "lying" to you about YOUR faith.  

What did Jesus have to say to His disciple's on His Sermon on the Mount, about how they should conduct themselves whenever faced with a non-believers vitriol ?  

KJV Matthew 5:38,39... 
38. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

And the above Scripture brings to my mind a true story. As 25 years ago when I was still employed, one of my best employees that I will just call "Joe," gave me the strong impression that he was a devout Christian. As his personal demeanor and the words he spoke in our break time conversations, gave all of us the same impression. 

And over time I became very trusting of him. So one day in private I shared with him my story, about my "experience" that made me a believer in God/Christ. One day about a year later after Joe clocked in, I was with him alone in the company workshop. I could see that Joe was not his usual happy self and that something, was really bothering him. After I finished what I was doing, I went over to Joe and told him that I was a good listener, if he needed one. 

The next morning after clock in time, I heard a knock on my office door. It was Joe and he asked me if I had a minute to spare and I replied, "Sure Joe, have a seat". Joe sat down and commenced to tell me why, that he was just not himself at work lately. And Joe's story went as follows to the best of my  recollection now 25 years later.  

Joe told me, " This past Sunday my wife and I were at the Sunday morning services at the church, where we have both been members for 20 years now. The pastor and I are pretty good friends because over the years now, we have got to know each other fairly well. As he and I have worked together a lot over the years on what needs fixing, on the old church building.

The pastors sermon was about Christ's "Sermon on the Mount" this passed Sunday. My wife and I as usual, were sitting in the pews at the very front of the church, closest to the pastor. It was right after that he read the Scripture verse where Christ said that a person needs to turn the other cheek, the pastor pointed at me. He then said my name and asked me to come up and stand by the podium with him. 

With out thinking anything about it, I immediately went up and stood by the pastor. He again read the "turn the cheek" verse again and suddenly BAM, he slapped my left cheek so hard that I had to take a  a step backwards. As you can see boss, I am a fairly big and strong guy and it took every ounce of faith in me, to stop my right hand from swinging up and knocking him out. 

But I did not hit the pastor, but instead went and sat down by my wife and stayed until the service was over. She and I both have talked for three days now, whether or not we should find another church to go to. Because she and I both believe that it was just flat out WRONG, how he humiliated me in front of my fellow church members. So now boss, since you have heard why I have not been my usual self lately, what do you think I should do " ??

I will not make this already too long of post any longer, by writing what I told Joe as my reply. But to this day I know that Joe is a devout Christian that was IMO, erroneously put to the "test" by a misaligned and egotistical pastor. 

But I will repeat GA, as I wrote two posts ago. And that is IMO a true devout Christian will not allow a non-believer, to break through their wall of faith. 

As NO one can "lie" to a devout Christian and convince them, their faith/beliefs are hogwash. And for the DC to even entertain such doubts about their faith, will be as them dragging Christ's garment over a dirt field. 

And with me being a believer while NOT proclaiming to be a Christian, even I do not banter with really  strong, non-believers for long. As I have posted on here more than once, for one to do so is like a farmer trying to teach a pig to sing. As it only wastes the farmers time and make him tired, and the pig will just get aggravated.

To sum up GA, I am choosing to no longer exchange any posts with you. Because not only do I see now that you are not REALLY the person that you write that you are, I fear that one's safety may be at stake if that someone REALLY upset's you. Not something this old man at least, needs to have to think about now or any time.   Good luck to you GA, on your internet posting future.

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## Great American/banned

> . . . . after I read your proclamation above where that you claim to be a devout Christian (DC) . . .


Which I am, maybe not a good one, but a devout one. Nobody can ever shake my belief.




> . . . . after I read your proclamation above where that you claim to be a devout Christian (DC), I went over and read your posts in the "Noah" thread. Of which I see now, that you are banned from posting in any longer. And I read in your post above, where that you justify your nasty replies to a poster simply because you admit being prideful, but just cannot tolerate anyone "lying" to you about YOUR faith.  . . .


Well, my mouth has been my enemy in the past. ut my actions do not change the truth that I speak.




> . . To sum up GA, I am choosing to no longer exchange any posts with you. Because not only do I see now that you are not REALLY the person that you write that you are, I fear that one's safety may be at stake if that someone REALLY upset's you. . . .



One can only wonder if you lived in Biblical times, and your first interaction with Jesus was when he overturned the money tables and chased people with a whip. You probably would have said, "Wow, that dude is too dangerous for me. Look at him on a rampage. Steer clear of that guy."

That is how stupid your judgement is on me. You are actually guilty of that which you accuse me of.

The DC passing judgement based on a few posts in a forum. DC my ass.

Jesus had righteous anger and so do I. You are just a judgmental jerk, all wrapped up in long posts full of hot air.

Have fun up on your throne.

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## gregonejeep

It seems anymore that I am reminded each day whenever I read or hear someone's words, of another belief of mine. And that is, I believe that words are the most powerful "instrument of effect" that man has ever created and developed. 

As IMO, the power in just one persons words can ultimately result in the annihilation of hundreds of thousands of people. And to the opposite effect, the same person while raising a child with their words of love and required discipline used, can result in another type person. One that will ultimately grow up and with their contribution to humanity, will save hundreds of thousands of lives. 

Righteous anger ??  The two words placed together just do not resonate with me as being plausible. Therefore, I will have to think about each words definition separately. 

Righteous...I know that if one is truly righteous, I have great respect for them as they are trying to live their life as we are supposed to, which is without sin. To my understanding though, there has not been anyone nor will there be anyone in the flesh other than Christ, that can or will be totally "sinless". Thus, the reason for Christ's blood being shed on the cross for us. 

Anger... I know this one well as I have seen it take place many times as a child. One of those times of which I will never forget, even at almost 70 now. As one Saturday morning when I was 8 in 1960, Mom and Dad were going to town to get groceries. I asked if I could go with them and they said yes, so I got in the back seat of Dad's 56 Chevy Belair 4 door car. Mom and Dad then got in to the front seat of the car.  

Suddenly my 11 year old  brother saw us getting ready to leave, so he ran and jumped in to the back seat of the car and sat beside me. When my Dad saw him get in the car he said to my brother, " I told you earlier that you have to pick the tomatoes that are ripe today. Because starting tonight, it's going to rain for the next 3 days and they will rot on the vine".

My brother being hard headed as he was, did not obey him. Dad told him two more times to get out of the car and my brother still, did not move. I watched as Dad got out of the car and walked the 30 feet to the edge of the woods by our REALLY rural home. He then took his pocket knife out and cut a "switch" from a Locust tree. 

The same tree that while exploring in the woods one day, I found out personally had up to one inch long, SHARP thorns on it. When Dad got back to the car with the "switch" he opened the car's back door and grabbed my brothers arm and "yanked" him out of the car. 

Since it was summer time my brother was wearing shorts. And I watched as my Dad while dragging my brother by his arm to the back porch door, start whipping the back of his bare legs with the thorny switch. The sight of the blood running down from the slits in the back of my brother's legs, is still an image that I can unwillingly bring back to mind today.

The above true story of mine is the perfect description of a person's "anger".  Because to me, Christ turning over tables in the temple was just Him making a valid point while showing His disgust. And all while He took his disgust out on material things that unlike humans, do not feel pain. Nor, will material things ever have the memories for life, of the pain inflicted on them due to someone's anger.  JMO

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## gregonejeep

It is easy for me at least, to understand why that on any website that allows religious topics to be posted, one will read on EVERY one of them the way too familiar, "battle of one's beliefs" still raging on. 

The poster's that believe in the existence of God/Christ and/or the Realm of the Supernatural, I choose to call these people believer's (BL). And the poster's that do *not* believe that God/Christ and/or the Realm of the Supernatural exists nor has ever existed, I choose to call them nonbelievers (NM)

I have been on internet forums since 2013. And on every religious forum that I have ever visited, I saw that MANY threads of BL vs. the NB's get posted. And whenever I read these threads, it was made quite evident to me the NB's would quickly use the strongest weapon they have (at least to them) that "proves" the BL's beliefs are just wishful thinking on the BL'S behalf.

 And the NB'S strongest weapon IMO, is when they demand the BL'S to post "factual and provable evidence" that will at least to them, give some credibility to the BL's beliefs. As the NB's know that a BL's beliefs cannot be proven with evidence as FACTS. 

As IMO, the NB'S only believes something is REAL to them if they can see it, hear it, touch it, smell it or taste it for themselves. And rightfully so, because if we humans did not have these five senses to use, we would have been made extinct many centuries ago. 

Does the fact that we BL'S cannot "prove" while adhering to the NB'S criteria of meeting their "sensory" rule, make we believers liars? Liars, just for believing in what too many NB'S consider as just our "wishful" thinking? All while the BL'S stand firmly on their beliefs and faith, that God and the Hereafter do exist?

And whenever I think about we BL's having "faith" in God/Christ, I cannot help to think back in time a bit. Back in the times when one could see with their eyes and hear with their own ears, a person that really "believed" in God/Christ and proved it so.

A time back in history where I will write about in the following, that will not be totally word for word accurate. Simply because I was not at the scene personally to record it, thankfully. But medieval history books will have such events in them. 

The person that a long time ago had their neck laying on a executioner wood block. And as the axe man stood ready to do his job, the Christian with his neck on the block was spoken to by one of the King's soldiers.

And he said to the Christian, "If you will just state loudly for all to hear today these words, "King XXXX is my only Lord and King" !! then your life will be spared today". 

But yet the Christian instead proclaimed loudly, " Jesus Christ is my Lord and King!! Then immediately, the axe fell and the Christians head rolled off of the block of wood. 

Can anyone reading the aforementioned even comprehend, the amount of "faith" a person would have to allow themselves to be beheaded? Not for being a thief or murderer, but for their belief? A belief in something they cannot see, hear, smell, touch or taste and yet they chose to be beheaded, rather than to deny Christ?   

I do wonder if all the self-proclaimed Christians in the world today were made prisoners and then given a choice of denouncing Christ or getting beheaded, what would the outcome  be? I dare say that IMO and with a fair amount of surety, the prisons axe man would get laid off for lack of work.

But what is it about one's faith in God/Christ although they cannot see, hear, smell, touch or taste such belief, that one may even be willing to die for it?   TBC...

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## UKSmartypants

> It is easy for me at least, to understand why that on any website that allows religious topics to be posted, one will read on EVERY one of them the way too familiar, "battle of one's beliefs" still raging on.



This is why we dont allow god threads in science. They cause absolutely incendiary, nuclear flame wars, toxic arguments that get so acrid and bitter they have caused people to leave the forum.  And such arguments about belief that are not backed by hard provable facts are unresolvable, and just grind on and on getting more and more acrimonious and bitter.

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gregonejeep (04-21-2022)

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## gregonejeep

I believe at this time, I should write down for anyone that may be reading my epistle here, what that I have written on TPF before. And that is, I have only a high school education from back in the late 60's when I barely graduated H.S. with my c- grade average. 

Therefore, a person will not find in my post's words used that I have to look up in my MWCDictionary, just to learn what they mean. Nor will one read in my posts, impressive literary and grammatical works. As I write my posts as if I am standing right in front of a person or people, while speaking to them. 

And in my posts as a 70 year old coming early in May, I write about my 60+ years of true-life experiences. And I do not lie or intentionally try to deceive anyone in my posts.(not stating though, that my age enhanced confusion may be not evident at times though  :Smile:  )

If one takes the time or has enough interest to read my rather large posts # 7-15 in my ROS thread here, them doing so will help them better understand what it is that I am basing my beliefs upon. And I still hold strong on to my beliefs, even though 40+ years have passed now since the time of my "spiritual" awakening, back in the early 1980's.

And one of the most notable facts that I have learned over the past 60 years of living life is, that if something in life is really worth having. Then a person must WORK hard and make many personal sacrifices, in order to get it. (criminals excluded here of course)

But what does this have to do with the BL's vs. the NB'S topic?? Just think about it for a moment. 

If a person decides at some point in their life to become a Christian, whether or not they have been "prompted" by a experience like that I had in the early 80's. Or, they have just made up their mind to live their life more Christain- like. 

Either way, the person will find themselves on the "path" to Christ. And when they start out on this venture, the person will first have to "re-program" their mind to accept a totally new and foreign concept. And this new concept will be IMO, to learn how to believe in what is considered the unprovable and unbelievable. Of which to the NB'S, is God/Christ and/or the Realm of the Supernatural. 

And all the time while their mind is performing this "re-formatting, their physical body will necessarily be doing tasks it was not doing before. Because the free time they may have used doing their hobbies or just relaxing all day on Sunday, will now be used for their new venture. The venture they have started on and if they will stay vigilant, will get them on their path to Christ. TBC

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## yeuemmaimai

> Many state it exists, and as many will say it does not exist. And even many Christians do not feel comfortable speaking on the subject, even though their fervent faith in the existence of God...falls in to this realm. I like to start my topics by using my source for the* definition of a word*, which is my old large Webster's Collegiate Dictionary sitting on my office shelf.
> 
> My WCD defines the word *Supernatural*:
> 
> "of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. esp: of or related to God or a god, demigod, *spirit* or devil. Departing from what is normal esp: so as to transcend the Laws of Nature ".
> 
> As I stated in the Atheist thread, people that do believe in the supernatural (SN) whether they are a Christian or not, will be "reserved" about stating their own SN experiences. Simply because they will use caution doing so, for fear they will be perceived as one that is delusional, irrational or even having other mental or societal "disorders". 
> 
> One must use caution also, when reading or listening to people's SN experiences. Because as we know magicians, illusionists, card readers, mind readers and even television shows may use the premise of the SN to make a paycheck. This thread is not for those people or their customers to post their SN experience, that was based on a *motive.*
> ...


Once the Bride of Christ is taken away to be with Him, Daniels's 70th week will commence and as it goes on, supernatural wickedness will increase like nothing ever seen before... and there will be no escape for the people that have taken the mark of the beast.

God goes as far as to tell us not to mess around with the spirits

Leviticus 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.


Leviticus 20:6 - And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.


Deuteronomy 18:10 - There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

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## gregonejeep

> Once the Bride of Christ is taken away to be with Him, Daniels's 70th week will commence and as it goes on, supernatural wickedness will increase like nothing ever seen before... and there will be no escape for the people that have taken the mark of the beast.
> 
> God goes as far as to tell us not to mess around with the spirits
> 
> Leviticus 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
> 
> 
> Leviticus 20:6 - And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
> 
> ...


>>>Yeu is about to witness what happens whenever a person puts one of GOJ posts in "quote" when they post their reply. As they will suffer a slow death while choking on the massive amounts of bytes, that he posts in his replies. But heh, at least my "abundance of bytes" that I post, are my OWN words and thoughts and not some large cut and pasted articles of someone else's words. <<<<  :Smiley20: 


Yeu have just posted the words above that so many of the people that I call biblical fundamentalists, will use in their admonishments to others whenever one mentions "spirits". 

 And this usually happens to the people that present to the fundamentalist's, ANY other way of understanding the religious topics about God and/or the Realm of the Supernatural. 

Yet, they will not even notice as they are "preaching" their indisputable FACTS while posting certain Scriptures to solidify their admonishments to others that, "there are other Scripture's written in the KJV Holy Bible", that will oppose their admonishments. 

And yes, a person while accruing their knowledge of spiritual matters, MUST learn the difference quite readily in a person as to whether they have a good spirit within them, or a bad spirit within them or even somewhere between. 

And you are correct Yeu, it is TRUE that people should not allow themselves to "tamper" with the world of spirits by them holding "seances" and/or getting involved with satanic cults and such. As doing so IMO, will open up their own "spirit" to be confronted with evil or at least mischievous spirits.

And the rule of thumb for this task is also written in the Scriptures. And while writing that rule loosely in my own words now, "Know the goodness of the tree or not, by the fruit it bears".

Below Yeu, are just a few of the Scriptures that I found in my KJV Bible that read to me, that not all of the spirits in human beings are necessarily bad. And these same Scriptures also prove to me, that the human body does have a "spirit" within it, that came from God. 

Many choose to call the human spirit, a person's soul. The act of doing so to me is akin to a person choosing to say,"tomateah instead of tomatoe". As it does not really matter either way to me, as people will still know what they are speaking about..

And below are just a few of the Scriptures I found in my KJV Bible that have the word "spirit" in them. Take a note of the first one, as it may even surprise Yeu,

KJV 1 Samuel 16:23..."_And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him"._


KJV 1 Corinthians 2:11.. _"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God"._

KJV Daniel 2:1.. "_And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him_".

KJV Job 32:8.. "_But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding_".

KJV John 4:24.. "_God is a_ *Spirit*_: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth_"

KJV Luke 1:47.."_And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour_".

KJV Proverbs 25:28.."_He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls_".

KJV Romans 8:16.."The Spirit itself beareth witness with our *spirit*, that we are the children of God":

Whenever I see a person post Scriptures about that if a person "partakes" of the services/friendship with a so called, "soothsayer, medium, wizard or witch" they will be committing an abomination to God, I have to just "cringe" a bit. Why?

Should we mere humans really take as fact, that God in His Supreme Intelligence, is really threatened by a human being(s) that claims they can "tell" the future? Or, that can cast "spells" on people? Or that proclaim they can communicate with the "spirits of the dead" while being a necromancer?

Think about it. Who would be more likely to claim that human beings can do such supernatural "works"? Would it be God, or the people that are trying to teach the people, of God's Word? 

I am of the mindset that those spreading the WORD in the Biblical days, saw these people that claimed to have "supernatural powers" as more of a threat to their mission of spreading of the Word, than anything else. 

As how can one stay focused on the miraculous powers of God/Christ being done, when there are people on earth also "claiming" to have supernatural powers?
It is no wonder whenever I get on the topic of fortune tellers, soothsayers, and witches etc, I cannot stop my mind from recalling a REAL event that happened here on earth long ago. An event that is written as a historical fact called, "The Salem Witch Hunt". 

Where that live human beings were "charged" by their superiors as possessing one of the "supernatural powers" that Yeu posted about above. And that person was called by the towns people, a "witch". 

 As all one needs to do is to read about the "Salem Witch" hunt, to get a real "grasp" of what can happen whenever people are taught by their faith or religion, what they must believe as being a FACT. 
And since the towns people were taught in church that being a "witch" was an abomination to God, they were necessarily put in the position to do something about the "witches" in their town. And then while putting all of their faith in what they had learned while sitting in the wood pews, some of those people made a horrific decision. 

And their decision was to rather than to risk the "safety" of the people in their town, they would just kill what they had been taught to fear. As to them, it was probably much easier to just kill what they feared rather than to take the time to learn about what it really was, they were fearing.

 But I am sure there were at least some people that learned something new, during the Salem Witch hunt. And those people IMO, were the "witches". Because they learned what happens when people are so strong in a particular belief, they will actually break one of the Ten Commandments they cherish, just to quench their fear.

And the "witches" I feel sure, also learned the very second they felt the rope's noose being tightened around their neck, the feeling of TRUE fear. And the same went for those "witches" that were laid in a field face up, and then a wood door was placed on their chest.

As those "witches" learned what true fear was, when each heavy rock was placed on the wood door that was lying on top of their chest. As they were forced to lay on their backs and listen, as the fearful yet righteous towns people, slowly laid large rocks on the door. 
The same rocks that when enough were placed on the door, the weight of them would eventually stop the "witches" lungs from rising and falling enough, so they could get the air they needed to stay alive. 

Wow, and to think that one of the top commandments of Christ written for we inhuman beings at times is for one to, " love thy neighbor, as they love themselves".
 If Yeu, want to take the time to get a better understanding of why I take the position's that I do on religious topics, just click here.. It is just one of my 140 (?)  posts to this ROS thread. 

The posts 7-15 I actually wrote back in 2016 on TPF. And then in 2021 I C/Pd them here to my ROS thread. And in this ROS thread, I have posted about what I have experienced in some of my real to life events. Events that proved to *me* over 40 years ago now, that God/Christ and the Realm of the Supernatural,  truly exists.  ALL JMO

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## yeuemmaimai

> >>>Yeu is about to witness what happens whenever a person puts one of GOJ posts in "quote" when they post their reply. As they will suffer a slow death while choking on the massive amounts of bytes, that he posts in his replies. But heh, at least my "abundance of bytes" that I post, are my OWN words and thoughts and not some large cut and pasted articles of someone else's words. <<<< 
> 
> 
> Yeu have just posted the words above that so many of the people that I call biblical fundamentalists, will use in their admonishments to others whenever one mentions "spirits". 
> 
>  And this usually happens to the people that present to the fundamentalist's, ANY other way of understanding the religious topics about God and/or the Realm of the Supernatural. 
> 
> Yet, they will not even notice as they are "preaching" their indisputable FACTS while posting certain Scriptures to solidify their admonishments to others that, "there are other Scripture's written in the KJV Holy Bible", that will oppose their admonishments. 
> 
> ...


you clearly misunderstood, I stated we are not to mess with with the spirits aka supernatural. 

The ONLY spirit we as Christians should be concerned with is the Holy Spirt of that that is indwelt in Christians. God has warned us not do something and we should take heed. and Yes I am aware that God will allow Satan to do something (Job for example) but He is ultimately in control.

God also sent a lying spirit to the Ahab king of Israel because the king refused to listen to God....

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## gregonejeep

> you clearly misunderstood, I stated we are not to mess with with the spirits aka supernatural. 
> 
> The ONLY spirit we as Christians should be concerned with is the Holy Spirt of that that is indwelt in Christians. God has warned us not do something and we should take heed. and Yes I am aware that God will allow Satan to do something (Job for example) but He is ultimately in control.
> 
> God also sent a lying spirit to the Ahab king of Israel because the king refused to listen to God....



GOJ copied to here > [QUOTE=yeuemmaimai;3045479]you clearly misunderstood, I stated we are not to mess with with the spirits aka supernatural. 


I just love written text, just in case no one has every noticed.  As unlike a person's words being spoken orally, text allows us to copy and past someone's own written words, if there is ever a "misunderstanding" as to what someone has written down. It's no wonder lawyers make the big bucks winning cases, solely based on the defendants written words.


To this Yeu, I have not misunderstood what that you posted to my opening post (OP) of my ROS thread here. OTOH, I can understand maybe why you have posted that I "misunderstood" your reply to my OP. 

As IMO most likely you have done what most people do pertaining to very LONG posts, like this one and the one I posted earlier. As they will choose to NOT read them at all, or they will just "graze" over them and then "cherry pick" from them. Whatever it may be, they want to reply to as being pertinent to them or, to what they deem as wrong or misunderstood.

Below is what I just c/p from my LONG reply to Yeu, earlier. If you will read it, it shows that I agree with your earlier post where you wrote that people should not "mess" around with "spirits".

Here it is what GOJ wrote in one his paragraph's, in his reply to Yeu> "And you are correct Yeu, it is TRUE that people should not allow themselves to "tamper" with the world of spirits by them holding "seances" and/or getting involved with satanic cults and such. As doing so IMO, will open up their own "spirit" to be confronted with evil or at least mischievous spirits".<

If anyone has been guilty of "misunderstanding Yeu, it is you. As no where in my OP did I write or even insinuate, that anyone should "mess" around with spirits. Here is my OP to this thread,

Originally Posted by *gregonejeep* 
Many state it exists, and as many will say it does not exist. And even many Christians do not feel comfortable speaking on the subject, even though their fervent faith in the existence of God...falls in to this realm. I like to start my topics by using my source for the* definition of a word*, which is my old large Webster's Collegiate Dictionary sitting on my office shelf.

My WCD defines the word *Supernatural*:

"of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe. esp: of or related to God or a god, demigod, *spirit* or devil. Departing from what is normal esp: so as to transcend the Laws of Nature ".

As I stated in the Atheist thread, people that do believe in the supernatural (SN) whether they are a Christian or not, will be "reserved" about stating their own SN experiences. Simply because they will use caution doing so, for fear they will be perceived as one that is delusional, irrational or even having other mental or societal "disorders".

One must use caution also, when reading or listening to people's SN experiences. Because as we know magicians, illusionists, card readers, mind readers and even television shows may use the premise of the SN to make a paycheck. This thread is not for those people or their customers to post their SN experience, that was based on a *motive.*

It is for people that are not afraid to post about their belief in the SN, because they believe they *had a supernatural experience*. Please, feel free to ask questions about the posters SN experience and why they believe they had a SN experience. And I am one of those people that believe in the realm of the "supernatural".

I just ask that all poster's replying to this thread do so, while refraining from snarky insinuations or ridicule directed at the poster. Instead, direct your disbelief or belief...at the SN experience being posted. < End of Quote from GOJ

And now this early AM Yeu, I read your reply to my LONG post earlier that I have  c/p below where Yeu wrote to GOJ,

Yeu wrote [Quote] "you clearly misunderstood, I stated we are not to mess with with the spirits aka supernatural.

The ONLY spirit we as Christians should be concerned with is the Holy Spirt of that that is indwelt in Christians. God has warned us not do something and we should take heed. and Yes I am aware that God will allow Satan to do something (Job for example) but He is ultimately in control.

God also sent a lying spirit to the Ahab king of Israel because the king refused to listen to God....[end Quote]

P.S. to Yeu... Will you please post the version of Bible and Scripture chapter/verse stating or that at least alludes to, the sentence that I made blue where you wrote about Ahab the King of Israel ?

As with Yeu presenting yourself by your own posts/words, one that is a devout Christian, you should be cognitive of the fact that any "baby Christian" or a devout Christian will most likely read some of your posts on TPF.  

And when they read the words in the sentence that I made blue above, wow. Even though I am a believer while not professing to be a Christian, your sentence that I made blue about Ahab made an "impression" on me. And the atheists, if they ever read any of my posts to my ROS thread, are going to have a "hay day" with it.   JMO

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## yeuemmaimai

sure the verse is

1 Kings 22:19-23 describes it in detail

as for being commanded not to mess around with the supernatural I already quoted enough to get the point across.

edit: as Christians our lives are to be centered around Christ and Christ alone. No need to worry about frivolous things

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gregonejeep (04-24-2022)

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## patrickt

There was a time when people thought the voices in their head were supernatural. Some still do. There was a time when people thought thunder and lightning was supernatural. There was a time when people thought gods caused floods and terrible storms. Some still do.

As people learn more they believe less in magic. But, some don't.

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gregonejeep (04-24-2022)

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## gregonejeep

> There was a time when people thought the voices in their head were supernatural. Some still do. There was a time when people thought thunder and lightning was supernatural. There was a time when people thought gods caused floods and terrible storms. Some still do.
> 
> As people learn more they believe less in magic. But, some don't.


I cannot totally disagree with your post above PT. But I have learned over the past many years of my life, there is a cause for every effect. Even the winds of which we cannot see, we can still see it's effects.

In posts 7-15 on this thread, I wrote of the "events" that made me a believer in the supernatural. Will anyone reading them believe that my "events" as a FACT really happened?  NO, they will not. 

Why? Because just as you PT, in order to believe my SN events were REAL, you would have had to witness them with your own eyes. Knowing this, then you are right PT for not believing the supernatural exists.

But to me and my wife, along with millions of others that have experienced a SN event(s),the SN events we experienced were real and a fact to us. How so?

Because just as you PT, we only believed something exists if we can use one or more of our five senses' to see, hear, touch, smell or taste it. And my wife and also believed the same.


At least we did, until the night back in 1992 while living in our first home as husband and wife. The night we were both proven wrong, for believing the ROS does NOT exist.

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## yeuemmaimai

> There was a time when people thought the voices in their head were supernatural. Some still do. There was a time when people thought thunder and lightning was supernatural. There was a time when people thought gods caused floods and terrible storms. Some still do.
> 
> 
> As people learn more they believe less in magic. But, some don't.


that voice in your head is your conscience, after enough evil it can be seared... 

and all are appointed a time of our death and once that happens, all truth is revealed. Those whom believed in Christ will go to be with Him. Those whom did not, go to be in a place of torment for eternity.

you do not want to die in your sins...eternity is a concept that is hard for most people to grasp...

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## gregonejeep

> that voice in your head is your conscience, after enough evil it can be seared... 
> 
> and all are appointed a time of our death and once that happens, all truth is revealed. Those whom believed in Christ will go to be with Him. Those whom did not, go to be in a place of torment for eternity.
> 
> you do not want to die in your sins...eternity is a concept that is hard for most people to grasp...


Yeu wrote> and all are appointed a time of our death <

I take your words above Yeu that I put in blue, to mean that every human being's death is predestined by a divine will. Is this just your opinion or do you have any Scriptures stating such?

As all could find where the word *predestined* is used, was in the Book of Romans 8: 28.29 in two verses. Neither of them, were using the word to indicate that anyone's time of death, was "predestined".

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## yeuemmaimai

> Yeu wrote> and all are appointed a time of our death <
> 
> I take your words above Yeu that I put in blue, to mean that every human being's death is predestined by a divine will. Is this just your opinion or do you have any Scriptures stating such?
> 
> As all could find where the word *predestined* is used, was in the Book of Romans 8: 28.29 in two verses. Neither of them, were using the word to indicate that anyone's time of death, was "predestined".


God exists outside of the timeline. He sees it all at once.

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Since God exists outside of the time line He knows everything at once

Hence why Scripture states

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

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## ruthless terrier

> God exists outside of the timeline.


time is an Earthbound concept that humans can never understand.

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## yeuemmaimai

Time is easy to understand

1. it moves forward, never backwards
2. it is affected by various things like gravity, altitude above the planet, and speed
3. we all will run out of it at some point in time.

Time was created by God, it is evident as He laid it out in Genesis Chapter 1

and the evening the morning were X out of 6 days during the creation.

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## gregonejeep

> God exists outside of the timeline. He sees it all at once.
> 
> Revelation 22:13
> I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
> 
> Hebrews 9:27
> And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
> 
> Since God exists outside of the time line He knows everything at once
> ...


None of the above in your reply to me Yeu, related one frog hairs width, to my question I asked of you. I'll copy it to here...

Originally Posted by *gregonejeep* 
_Yeu wrote> and all are appointed a time of our death <

I take your words above Yeu that I put in blue, to mean that every human being's death is predestined by a divine will. Is this just your opinion or do you have any Scriptures stating such?

As all could find where the word predestined is used, was in the Book of Romans 8: 28.29 in two verses. Neither of them, were using the word to indicate that anyone's time of death, was "predestined"._


*The only Scripture Yeu posted that gave me my answer, was Hebrews 9:27.  Thanks.*

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## yeuemmaimai

The wages of sin are death so yes we all die. since as noted above, God exists out of the human timeline, He knows when you die. Since God sees the entire timeline at once. it is not that we are pre destined to something, just that God knows the outcome already.

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## gregonejeep

> The wages of sin are death so yes we all die. since as noted above, God exists out of the human timeline, He knows when you die. Since God sees the entire timeline at once. it is not that we are pre destined to something, just that God knows the outcome already.


 I cannot dispute nor even dissect, any of Yeu's words in the quote above. Nor can I even debate the "message" intended to be construed by those words used by Yeu. Because unlike Yeu is proclaiming, I cannot personally attest to *knowing for a fact,* what that God knows or how He may interact with we human beings. 

With this being said, over 41 years ago now I experienced "spiritual" experiences, that made me a believer in God/Christ. And since that time 41 years ago, I have learned some interesting things on this ROS topic. Of which, according to my MWCD 11th Edition and now I will post again, just as a reminder.

The MWCD 11th Edition's definition of *Supernatural*

1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe especially: of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil

2a: departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature 
b: attributed to an invisible agent (such as a ghost or spirit)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
And now today I have finally come to believe as far as mankind and their various and diverse faiths and religions are concerned, something of interest has occurred. (at least to me). And that is, I believe that gradually over the span of time that mankind while practicing his faiths and religions, have lost their "perspective" about God. 

How so? While absolutely not meaning any disrespect to Yeu now, read his words in his quote carefully. When finished, if one reflects on the overall message of his words, they will see that an almost "Pantheistic" belief exists in them. HUH??

As to me, the words in the above quote are implying that while using "generalities", that God has a LOT of one-on-one interaction with human beings. And I for one, do not believe this to be true because as it is written, God is Spirit and* not* flesh and blood. And as biblical history reads, God has not had provable personal "interactions" with we human beings, since the Old Testament times. 

But just how does my above opinion validate my stating that Yeu's words above in quote, almost read as a Pantheist's belief? Some more groundwork is needed from me now that follows, to help clarify my point being made here. 

Below, is my short list of sentences that I hear clergy and Christian's state at times to other people. And they use these "pat" answers and replies to people, that have asked a question of them, they do not really have a truly convincing answer to for the person asking the question. 

Or one may hear the words in a sentence below, being used while someone is being emphatic/sympathetic. As the words are being used just as comfort words to the grieving, of which to me is great. Note: The sentences below are NOT written EXACTLY word for word as used by people, but they are VERY close.

1. God hears your every prayer to Him
2. God knows your needs better than you do
3. When one calls out to God in dire need, they will be heard
4. God will answer your prayer(s) when it's time to do so
5. God knows when you die
6. God will not put more burden upon a person, than He knows that person can bear. 
7. It is not for us to know of such things at this time
8. You will get your answer, but only after you die
I could go on and on with my list, but I'll stop here.

But I do wonder at times, do devout Christians ever realize that when they proclaim the sentences above, they may be indulging in a *Pantheist's* belief. WTH, GOJ??!!, just how in the world did you come up with this one!??  


Rather than mentally blocking my words above, try to THINK a bit about* what that* I just wrote. Because if one will just use their attributes of reason and rationale whenever they read my list above, they should recognize something very pertinent about them. 

And that is, all while keeping in mind there are about 2.38 billion practicing Christians on earth today. And that also, these people believe in the doctrines of Christianity (while using their many different denominations of faith) and they will at least try, to live their lives by their faith's doctrines.

Now, if a person truly believes that at ANY moment in time, that any of one of these 2.38 billion Christians will be granted *any* one of the acts or beliefs in my list above by* God.* Then, what should their belief "say" to them? It says to me at least, whether or not they want to be cognitive of it, they are holding to a Pantheist's belief. 

DO WHAT??!! How so? Because it is to my understanding, the Pantheist's believe the *whole* universe *IS* God. Therefore, God exists in *everything* in the universe and of course on earth. Of which means to me at least, they believe that God is* everywhere* in the universe, at the exact same nanosecond, and for infinity in *everything*.

 Does this mean that Pantheism is correct and that in fact, their belief is actually being proven to be true while pertaining to my list above? Because to me, in order for the sentences in my list above to become a factual action performed by God at *any* *nanosecond in time,* for any one of the 2.38 billion Christians on earth? 

Then IMO for God to do so, then Pantheism would/could be the correct belief to use just in order for one to be able to say with conviction, that all of the sentences in my list above "can and do happen" by God's own actions. But is this MY belief?

No, because I for one do not believe that Pantheism is a valid belief about the works and providence of God. But, if the belief in Pantheism is not being used to make my sentences above come true for a person, then just what is* it* that can do so? 

*It* IMO*,* is the "spirit" (AKA soul) that comes from God as a simple and ignorant spirit, that is incarnated into we human beings when we are a fetus. And while growing up, a person does not even recognize they have this spirit from God inside of them, until one day by their own actions, it is "awakened".

 And the alarm clock for this awakening of one's spirit, is the Holy Scriptures (HS). As it is only when a person reads the HS's with an open mind and undoubting heart, that a "Holy Spirit" from God will help the spirit within them, to understand the HS's.

 And when their spirit begins to acquire this "spiritual knowledge" from the Scriptures, they will feel their spirit thirst for more knowledge about the providence of God. And it is when their spirit has achieved this "higher spiritual development" is when that person, will have then opened up a "channel" of communication with God. 

Of which then means for this person, that any one of the sentences in my list above CAN/WILL happen for this person if they ask. WHY? It is certainly not, because of any Pantheistic belief. It will happen because, that person's spirit that came from God, is now connected "telepathically speaking" to all the higher developed "spirits" that surround us daily that are unseen to the human eye. 

And they, through their "thoughts" IF WE WILL JUST LISTEN to them and act upon them, will help us. And they will even use other people with "like minded" spirits within them, just to help get one's prayers answered. Or to help "guide" that person to live the way God, wants us to live. 

And those that choose to not "awaken the spirit within them" that came from God, just so that it can be developed higher "spiritually"? These people IMO, will be those people that become and stay until death, secularists. ALL JMO and FWIW

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## Mr. Claws

As far as I'm concerned the "realm of the supernatural" will be found in the more esoteric "realms of theoretical physics"... think on it, what they "theorize" puts any medieval grimoire to shame.  :Thinking:

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## gregonejeep

> As far as I'm concerned the "realm of the supernatural" will be found in the more esoteric "realms of theoretical physics"... think on it, what they "theorize" puts any medieval grimoire to shame.


Something is only deemed being "theoretical" to a person, until it happens to them as a fact. Then, the supposed theoretical is no longer, theoretical to that person =my thread here.

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## gregonejeep

It is so very easy for me at least, to understand why the topic of religion or just as this ROS thread of mine, is scoffed at by so many today.  How so? 

Because if one will just think back to the time, when we were no longer considered to be a child, something changed in us. We knew that we had to at least appear to others, as a person that was no longer a child and was in fact, actually becoming an adult. 

As I recall very well the time long ago back in 1968, the day when I bought my first car, a two door 1959 Ford Galaxie 500 hardtop. It had no engine in it and the passenger door had a huge dent caved into the side panel of it. 

But to me at the time, the 59 was going to be my young life's new passion. And I just knew that I could get it back on the road running somehow, and then one day get to proudly drive it to my H.S. And to be able to cruise around town in it on Friday nights, with my best bud riding shotgun. (And my new passion did come true for me)

 When I handed the owner of this "junk" 59 Ford car the $150.00 cash in my hand for his 59, the very same money that I had earned helping my BIL wire and insulate two old houses. It was *right* *then at that moment,* that I knew I was no longer a child.

 And two months later after I had earned some more money for digging and setting fence posts on a large farm, I paid my dad's buddy to put a 352 c.i. engine in my 59 for me. The engine came out of my brother's pristine 62 Ford Fairlane that he rolled over and totaled while driving drunk one night. Right after, that he got back home from "Nam" and at that time, when he was home on a short leave from the Army. 

 And then four months later, with my 59 now running like a scalded dog, something else happened to me that REALLY convinced me, that I was no longer a child. As one night while parked on the road to my home in a wide spot on that country road. (where the azzhole people would park and abandon their unwanted cats and dogs, that I would try to later save), something very *good* happened to me that particular night. 

I lost my virginity to a young lady, that was three years older than I was at that time (I was 16) And it happened on that big and comfy back seat in my 59 Ford. All while we listened to Chuck Berry sing "Maybelline" on the 59's great sounding FOMOCO radio that I had playing. (there must be a country song here, that could somehow be written)

But wait now. Just three years prior when I was 13 years old, I was forced to go to a Baptist church every Sunday by my mom starting when I was age nine, just so I would learn how "God" wanted we human beings to conduct our lives here on earth.

 And I was also taught in that Baptist church, that if I did not get "saved" and abide by God's laws, that after I died in the future that my "soul" would burn in Hell for eternity. That being done as I was taught by Rev. Nitwit, as my punishment for my life's sinful "rebellion" against God.

But what part of the sinfulness of my "fornicating" out of wedlock that God forbids, did I not understand at 16?  As I did understand my sinfulness alright back then, as a teen. But at the same time, I was not willing at my young age to give up my sinfulness. And especially for "someone" they preached about in a church, that I had never seen, heard, touched, tasted, or smelled that the Rev. Nitwit, called God. 

As to me back at that time now 57 years ago, if a person while using their five senses could still *not* get the "proof" they needed just in order for them to really believe that "something" existed? Then to me, that something *did not* exist. 

I stopped going to Baptist church at 13 years of age, all while believing the church and its Rev. Nitwit was just another way devised by man, to get money out of people's pockets. 

As how could something so great as my youthful and lustful sinning in the back seat of my 59 Ford Galaxie 500, be THAT wrong? Especially when our sinning was being done between two consenting people of legal age at that time, that really cared about each other.
But oh my, oh my. What a person can learn about life and the "unseen and the unproven" around us, after just living 57 years more of life. TBC...

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## gregonejeep

After just reading my previous post above again, I see now that I must apologize to the pastor's "spirit" for my calling him, "Rev. Nitwit". He was my pastor back when I was going to church from ages 9 -13. He was a great guy, and his "spirit" certainly did not deserve my derogatory remark. For now, I'll just blame my brain fart/err in judgement for doing so, on my 2 CV shots that I received in 2020. As I did not have ANY reason whatsoever to slur him.

My "spiritual" apology to my now departed Baptist preacher being done and written, I'll move on now. As here is what happened to me back in my early 20's while involving my mom at the time, that kept "religion" in the back of my mind as a " fog", even though I had no use for it at the time.

 Simply because just as most young people will experience, I was living my young life with its "newness and excitement" of being a young person just entering out into my new world. While being just a year or so after leaving the safety nest of my home/family, that I was raised in.

As to me being a 20 year old at the time, I believed there was just NO legitimate reason for a young person to get involved in a religious belief. As I believed at that time that if I lived my young life while practicing a religion, my doing so would not only step on my lifestyle of having fun and sinning. 

But it would also change my carefree focus about life at that time, to one of worrying about my future death and what may happen to me after I died. (of which now 50 years later, I know is a total B.S. way for a young person to even think)

And there was another reality for me to think about at that time 50 years ago, whenever the topic of religion came to mind. And that reality was, I had just spent 12 years of my young life sitting in a school's classroom for 9 months out of a year.

The same classrooms where I was taught how that ALL we knew to exist in life both organic and inorganic, came into existence. And I learned how that when the human body dies, there is no more life that can come from it. (today's organ transplant's being done, being the exception here)

But wait, I was taught in church as a 9-13 year old, about a much different doctrine. As the Baptist church pastor taught his congregation, quite the opposite. He taught us that once we die, that our body will indeed decay over a long time, back to "ashes". 

But he also taught us that one day in the future, that our dead bodies/ashes would get a, "awakening call" from a supreme deity called God/Christ. And that when this happened, our dead body/ashes would be raised from the ground or mausoleum's box, to face a "judgement".

HUUH ?? The movie "The Walking Dead" was not even aired 50 years ago I know, but wow. As TWD series is what one must envision today after reading the above, as I certainly do. 

And we wonder today why that so MANY people that have been educated in the past 70 years in our educational "institutions", refuse to believe the Christian doctrines?  TBC later...

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## gregonejeep

Copied to here from last my last post>> "And we wonder today why that so MANY people that have been educated in the past 70 years in our educational "institutions", refuse to believe the Christian doctrines"? <<.

As I have stated many times here on TPF that I am a believer in God/Christ, yet at the same time I do not proclaim to be a Christian. Wow, what an odd statement for a person to write, that just claimed themselves to be a believer. To this, how and why that I became a believer 41 years ago now, I wrote about in this post.

 But if one actually takes the time to read the linked post in blue, they will most likely be asking themselves the following question. "Why is it that GOJ today while still proclaiming himself to be a believer, is now writing posts that are seemingly agnostic? 

And to the above question my answer will be, that my personal convictions about the existence of God/Christ still stand firm with me today. Simply because whenever a person experiences an "event"(s) in their life as I did over 41 years ago now. 

Especially, an event that to them at the time, equaled a mule sitting on their head. (TIC) Then to me at least, that person cannot just say while they are still conscious," Hey, it's all good everyone! Because even a mule needs somewhere to sit down at times, don't they?"

Fair enough. But why do so many of my posts on religion today, read as one having doubts in their conviction as a believer? It is not that my belief in God/Christ has been weakened. It is how that man has made themselves so MANY diverse religions and faiths, while claiming to have derived them from the Holy Scriptures.

Huh? And just WTH does this mean GOJ? It means to me that, whenever there is just ONE "Master Instruction Manual" written for* anything,* that if and when people change its instructional content to suit themselves, then confusion abounds.

 And this manual I am referring to now was fabricated from the words written down by those "men inspired by God" over 2000 years ago now. The instruction manual for man to live and die by, known to us as the Holy Bible.

But how in the world can we truly expect the people educated in the past 100 years, to ever foster a belief in a "specific" Christian doctrine, when we see here in real life there are so MANY religions and "faiths" for one to choose from? 

Here is my overly simplistic analogy (and just a hypothetical!) to help prove my point. Let's say, that I wanted a lot of horsepower in the new car that I was shopping to buy, and I know the Dodge Hellcat is being advertised, to be THAT car. 

So, I look at the Hellcat's engine specifications on paper just to see the engines rated, "horsepower to the wheel" stats and it reads "*700 H.P.* to the wheels. So, my now being impressed I buy the car and after it is "broken in" I take it to my buddies Speed Shop. Then, at my request he puts my new HC on his Dyno to check my HC's "H.P. to wheels" stat. 

To my dismay, my new HC "dyno's at only *600 H.P.* to the wheels. We are both very surprised, so a lot of tests are done to be sure the engine is running at its top potential. It is, yet my new HC's engine will still only dyno at 600 H.P. to the wheels. 


And just WTH, does my above simpleton's Dodge HC *hypothetical scenario* prove? It proves at least to me, that a sheet of paper will lie very still, just so that anything can be written on it. Am I implying here, that the Holy Scriptures are lies? *NO, I am not.* 

What I am stating is that people lie to themselves, while they are being taught and learning, about the doctrines of Christianity. As they have taken the Holy Scriptures and then "interpreted " them, to suit their OWN ideologies. How so? 

Just look around today at the MANY, many faiths and religions there are today. And these many faiths and religions that were supposedly derived from the ONE instruction manual, written for mankind over 2000 years ago now to live their lives by? 

Now, while using my Hellcat hypothetical scenario to guide me, which of these MANY religion/faiths IS the right one? 

My now 70 years of living a simpleton's life if nothing else, has proven to me one unwavering fact about life. And that is, whenever a person participates in the topics of religion or the ROS, they are immediately put in the position of trying to prove to others, WHY they believe in the seemingly unprovable.  

After all, what could be so hard about getting a person to believe that "something" (God) REALLY exists, that many claim that did for a fact, create ALL that exists? Yet while at the same time those proclaiming such beliefs, cannot prove that God for a fact, really exists. 

And for me, while being one that as of today has not chosen a particular religion or faith to live by, I still have a lot of unanswered questions. (of which is taught by the Scripture's, that I will get my answers to, but only AFTER I die) 

And the one question I most often want to ask, is of anyone that practices a particular denomination or faith. And my question to them will be, "And why is it, that you believe that *your* particular denominational faith/belief, is the only RIGHT one to believe and to live by"?  

TBC, maybe. .. (*if* I stay vertical or until this thread finally gets vaporized for being non-political) But doesn't the topics of religion get "political" at times?  :Smile:

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## gregonejeep

I was participating in a thread in the Mosh Pit and when this video was posted in it, it was one of those "A-HAH" moments for me. Why? It is the perfect example of what I have been stating on here for years now. 

And that is, everyone has *their* interpretation of the Scriptures, and they will hold on firmly to their interpretation/understanding of any Scripture. At least until, someone comes along with a notably higher and authoritative understanding of any Scripture. 

Just as proven clearly in this same video that I linked to above. Proof? Watch the video and see for yourselves how the speaker keeps referring to other people's beliefs, just in order to validate his own. Does this necessarily mean the speaker in the video is "waffling" in his beliefs or even worse, does not really KNOW what he is talking about? *NO, it does not.

*O.K. then, so just what is my point here? My point being the speaker in the video has given his audience and his video viewer's, HIS interpretation of the Scriptures. The very same Scriptures that he uses in his speech that relate to his topic being presented. And his topic in the video, is about what happens after the death of one's body, as pertaining to the "afterlife". (Of which I call the ROS)

 He tells his viewers/listeners about how the fundamentalists of the doctrines of Christianity (DOC), interpret the Scriptures EXACTLY as how they are written on his topic in the video. (Death, heaven or hell?) But adversely, he chooses to state "his" interpretation of the very same Scripture's that the fundamentalists of the DOC use, (the Devout Christians=DC) whenever they teach their beliefs to others. 

But just what is the "big deal" with what this man did in his video, at least to me anyway?  As basically, he just did what that so MANY of the diverse faiths and religions made by man that exist right now, have been doing for centuries now. They choose to "forge" their religious beliefs in such a way as to make the Scriptures more easily "understandable" to them. (IE: The many, many, translations/versions of the Holy Bible that have been printed and purchased today)

Of which is quite understandable, to me. As IMO, whenever one truly understands or truly comprehends *anything* they read or hear, then them doing so wins hands down over them being confused. As confusion has within its own walls, absolutely NO learning properties for anyone.

But just what IS, my issue with not only this video's author's "interpretations" and most of the DC's firm stance on the DOC? My issue is, THEY can choose to make their own interpretations of the Scripture's to suit themselves. And anyone that claims to be a "believer" that questions their Scriptural interpretations, are deemed to be disingenuous or just a heretic in disguise. 

But yet in turn, they will be infuriated if someone presents their beliefs in what REALLY exists in these vast topics about life, death, and the ROS. And yet most times, a DC will not be willing to openly present THEIR real to life and "in the flesh" experiences, as to why they believe in deities, angels, demons etc.

Other than by them stating, " It is true what I posted, because the Scripture that I quoted states very clearly, it is true".  << And to this, can the man's testimony in his video that I linked to above, be used to reply to this statement? I would certainly think not. As in his video, he also put his "goal posts" on wheels whenever interpreting Scripture, did he not?   

How so? Because he like all other DC's, have NOT died and then came back to earth to tell us THEIR personal experience of getting to see either heaven or hell. Of which to me, in order for ANYONE to state for a fact that they KNOW that heaven or hell exists, they need to have witnessed those "places" themselves.

 To my point, I am a very wealthy person that has over 20 billion $$$ in both cash and equities. This being said, how many people reading the aforementioned actually believe this to be true about me?

Yet, if someone like me that posts THEIR personal experience that proved to ME, that "something" exists of us beyond the death of our flesh? I will then be ostracized and then told by a DC, that I was just being "influenced" by a dark and evil "spirit". 

And just what is the irony in this ^^ statement of theirs IMO?? They are admitting and agreeing with me that in fact, "spirits" do exist. Yet in their close mindedness, they still insist that only "bad spirits" can possibly inhabit the earth.

Yet at the same time, the DC's will post that spirit "angels" from God are being sent to earth often, to help those selected. (of which I believe is true, but just not in the same "context" as the DC believes it to be)

Now on closing, I just wish those dang wheels on the DC's goal posts would just stay in the locked position.  :Smile:  JMO, and TBC until I cannot do so...

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## gregonejeep

I see now that my post above at least upon my third reading now, reads as that I am "beating" up on the devout Christians (DC). Therefore, I believe that I need to go on record here that I have the highest respect for anyone that truly loves God. And that, is at least trying in their life to adhere to God's Providential plan for mankind.

Of which is exactly IMO, how a devout Christian's life is lived. And my sincerest apologies to any DC, that if choosing to read my blathering's on this thread could have offended by any of them. 
And to know also, that every true DC that I have ever met that whenever I shook their hand, I could 'feel" their "spiritual energy" that radiates from them. 
_______________________________________________

I know readers, it must get very tiresome with me and my "spirit" tirades. And I do know that I now need to put my bet down or just to leave the table, about my belief in "spirits". 

Buy why is it that I believe that man (I use *man* to mean male and female for at least my attempt, at using brevity) has a "spirit" within them, that lives beyond the death of their flesh and blood body? Because as my early posts in this thread show, it was proven to me to be a fact.

But first, I need to lay down some "foundation" down to show why that I believe that man has within him, a "Spirit" from God. And to this, I must post some verses from the Holy Bible. Of which to me, is the most important and most popular, " Life Instruction Manual" for man to read. 

And as one will see that, the verses that I will post will have a KEY word in them, that may differ in the many various "versions/translations" of the Holy Bible. My example follows,

KJV Genesis 2:7.."And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul".

NASB Genesis 2:7.. "Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being"

Take note from above, of how the NASB version changed the word "soul" written in my KJV Bible, to the word "being." And just what is the major significance of this change in verbiage, at least to me? According to my MWCD Eleventh Editon, a "being" is,

1: the quality or state of having existence, 
2: something that is conceivable and hence capable of existing

And just what did the NASB do, when they made this word change? IMO, they are teaching the new reader of the Scriptures while using their "version" of the Holy Bible, that man is just another living "species". 

How so?  Because according to my MWCD, any living flesh and blood creature is a "being" and in fact, any one of our 4 cats can be considered a "being". Therefore IMO, what the NASB did was to take away the knowledge from man, that God made man with a SOUL. But just what is the great significance of man having a "soul", to either man or God?

As to me, if there is ever a need for a "communication" or a system of record keeping for man, we *have* to have a TOOL to use to be able to do so. And the tool may be a phone, laptop, or just our handwriting on paper.

 Now in the same vein of thought, just how can God "communicate" with man or even have a "record" of a man's life, that he acquired while living in the flesh? (Remember the "Judgement" here)

Then, just what is there* in* man that can be this "tool" for God? It is IMO, man's soul. And anyone that has done their research about the soul and spiritualty, will have learned that our soul and "spirit" are often referred to as being the one and same.

 And some will choose to think of our soul as being our "emotional" tool, as our source for all of our emotions that we feel. (lotsa "blues songs" came about from this belief) And that, our "spirit" is a separate "tool" within us, that man has just in order to be able connect themselves to God "spiritually". 

And to me, neither of the above choices in one's belief can be deemed as being totally wrong. But also note, the Scriptures have MANY verses that write of man having a "spirit" from God within them. Just one of the many follows,

KJV Romans 8:16.."The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God"

KJV I Corinthians 6:20.."For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

And notably in the above verse, "The Spirit itself" is referring to God, as in KJV John 4:24,
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth".

Therefore to me, how can anyone that deem themselves to be a DC and a practitioner of God's work, boldly deny that man has a spirit within him, that came from God? 

How? Below is why that when anyone speaks of man having a "spirit" within him, the DC will rightfully post that any "spirits" on earth, will just be the dark and evils spirits.  As it is written,

KJV Deuteronomy 9:10-12...

10 "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch",

11 "Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer".

12 "For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee".

But (there is always a "but" with me it seems) as we see today here in the USA that just in the past 75 years now, there has been a great "falling away" of people choosing to practice any sort of denomination of Christian faith. And why did this happen? 

 IMO, it is because our materialistic education that we received, has literally squashed our ability to even "perceive" those things in the "Realm of the Supernatural". (God, angels, spirits, demons, etc)

As really, how could a person expect someone that has been educated in a modern society to believe that an unseen, and Almighty "force" that we call God could have created ALL that exists today in the universe, and EVEN the universe itself? 

What a HUGE and complex question for a human being's brain, to even TRY ponder upon!! Therefore IMO, man's way of not having to try to "prove" their belief in God, angels, spirits, demons etc. is to simply state, "read the Scriptures and there within, will be the answer to your "unanswerable "question(s).

But anyone that has read the Scriptures KNOWS, there is not finalized answers about our many questions about the "unknown." As to me, the Scriptures were not written just to give man his "answers" about the unknown. 

As even when one reads the OT and upon finishing it, they will need to accept one fact IMO. And that is, they just read a literal emotional rollercoaster about the men and God, during the Mosiac biblical times. 

Do what? Just recall the enormous number of wars, sufferings, the punishments from God upon people, the self-sacrifices made of both humans and animals, the personal injustices, etc. that are written about in the OT.  

Of which then is followed by the NT, of which shows that God is no longer accessible to man, such as He was in the OT times. Instead, as we read in the NT today, we now have God's Son AKA Jesus Christ to be His "Messenger". 

As we need to remember that Christ, while being a flesh and blood person born on earth, DID die and was resurrected as a "spiritual" being from God. And that Jesus Christ, during His time on earth was trying to get we VASTLY lower intellect human beings to understand His message from God.  

And is it no wonder that Christ used parables, figurative and allegorical language to those people, now over 2K years ago now?  As how else could He get the people in His days to comprehend His message? As he was speaking about those things the people in His time could not see, hear, smell or touch, that would have proved to them what that HE was teaching about DID exist. 

Something that we cannot see, but can only witness it's "effects". (much like the wind) And their knowledge of this "something" can help explain to others "maybe", as to why they would have such a *very* controversial belief. 

TBC...

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## gregonejeep

It's about time I believe, for me to step back from the religious topics for a bit and get back to what "inspired" me to start this ROS thread. 

And that is, " How do we explain these unexplainable events if and when, they happen to us?" 

The following is one of the three of my latest "events"' that I will post here, that have happened to me just over the past three years now.
__________________________________________________  _______
My wife told me that she was going to the store to get groceries. But instead, she came right back in the house and told me that she had a flat tire on her car. I then went outside and looked at her close to being totally deflated, tire. 

In my haste of changing the almost flat tire for her, I did not think of taking a pic of what I considered to be a REALLY *odd* nail puncture, into the SIDEWALL of the tire.

The attached pic is one of her tires that is *NOT,* of the actual flat tire that day. As instead, the pic is of one of her inflated tires that I drew a nail sticking into it. And it shows where the white metal siding nail was sticking into the sidewall of the tire. 

And the mystery to me is, " How does a #15 gauge = 0.072 inch dia.(or just a hair over 1/16 in. dia.) x 1.250" long white metal siding nail, get pushed about 1.5 inches ABOVE the ground/driveway(?) into the SIDEWALL of a tire"?   Huh????

 I know there are more than a few gearheads here on TPF, so maybe one of them can help me solve this flat tire mystery?

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## gregonejeep

It's been a while now, since I have posted here on TPF. I just needed to step away from the topsy turvy world of politics for a while. And to keep what few brain cells I have left, focused on what really matters to me in my small world. 

As there are few things that prompts one to refocus their priorities in life more than knowing their time with their spouse, now has a countdown timer running. My 79-year-old wife that has been fighting off the progression of her emphysema for 14 years now, is now losing the battle. 

Even with her 4 breathing treatments a day, antibiotics and anti-mucous medicines, she now gets out of breath now walking the 40 feet from the bedroom to the kitchen.

And I am used to awakening early every morning around 4-5 am and enjoying my first cup of coffee, while enjoying the total peace and quiet. And a lot of those times I used for a long time, posting my thoughts and opinions on TPF early in the morning. 

But for the past four months now, I no longer cherish the peace and quiet in our home in the early hours of the morning. As I am now finding great pleasure in hearing the morning silence, broken by a noise. And that noise is, whenever I hear my wife coughing or I hear her footsteps in the bedroom hall on the squeaky hardwood plank floor.

Because it is at that exact moment in time, that I know she has survived the night. And when I hear either of these two "noises" in the early am, my heart then "lifts" a bit. Because I then know at that exact moment that I will still have my wife of 31 years now, hopefully for another day.

But why did I post the above "downer" in my R.O.S. thread here? Because for *one*, I always keep my word if at all possible. And in my last posts to this thread, I ended them with the letters" TBC" which is an acronym for "to be continued". Therefore, I will be posting more about my last two posts here and more, if my health and my wife's health permits.

And* two*, it is because of my firm and solid beliefs the "Realm of the Supernatural," truly does exist. And my thread here where I have posted a LOT of my own true and personal testimonies, shows the reader WHY I believe in the ROS. 

And I guess also there are still a few people still interested in this ROS thread, that is now buried in the Pub's forum 29 pages deep now. As I see that it has accumulated around 3396 views now, since it was last posted to when my last post to it, was in Sept. of 2022. 

But now with my wife entering her last "stage" of emphysema, I truly wish that I had never been "enlightened" to the ROS, over 42 years ago now. As I can truly see now why it is so much easier for a person to fervently believe, that NOTHING exists for a human being beyond the death of their physical body. 

As would it not be great to KNOW that, when you or your loved one expires there will be NOTHING more for us/them to endure? That, our/their physical death will be the end, finite, ALL done, forever and ever and ever for us/them?  Alas, I truly wish it were so.....

                                        JMO

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