# Politics and News > SOCIETY & humanities >  Is Homosexuality a choice?

## Irascible Crusader

I'm not talking about the homosexual lifestyle, I'm talking about the same sex inclination.

Because during the recent debates over homosexuality, I kept hearing people say that people choose to be gay and it's a load of crap.  People discover their sexuality during the onset of adolescence ages 10-13 and they all discover it at the same time.  For all people who are openly gay, this is their testimony. It wasn't something they chose. 

I can't stress enough that lifestyle is a choice and throughout human history there have been taboos on who can have sex with who and those strictures have made for strong, perpetuating societies. Other civilizations who abandoned themselves into licentiousness quickly dwindled.  This isn't about what people choose to do with their sexual orientation, this is about how they get it to begin with.

I've found that the "language of hate" consists of fabricating, believing, and spreading untruths about another group of people and this concept goes well beyond just homosexuality.  We've gotten far away from the Christian piety of loving the sinner but hating the sin and some of us, even right here on this forum, find the sin so odious that our visceral feelings extend to taint the person caught up in the sin and there's no better evidence of this than the lies we make up about them.

The homosexual lifestyle is wrong. That doesn't make homosexuality a choice.

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## Gerrard Winstanley

Some of the folks on here have a pretty unhealthy obsession with dehumanizing homosexuals, conflating them with pedophiles, zoophiles, cannibals and the rest of the evil bag. Pretending homosexuality is a choice, against all evidence to the contrary, is just part of this effort.

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Devil505 (03-23-2014)

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## Irascible Crusader

> Some of the folks on here have a pretty unhealthy obsession with dehumanizing homosexuals, conflating them with pedophiles, zoophiles, cannibals and the rest of the evil bag. Pretending homosexuality is a choice, against all evidence to the contrary, is just part of this effort.


Exactly.

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Gerrard Winstanley (03-22-2014)

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## Sentinel

Sexual attraction is very malleable and conditionable.  Maybe Irascible Crusader thinks there's a gene that causes attraction to dresses or limp wrists?  But, we're not talking about someone without much ability to reason, as Irascible Crusader thinks someone who knows converts to judaism was born a Jew.

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## catfish

> Some of the folks on here have a pretty unhealthy obsession with dehumanizing homosexuals, conflating them with pedophiles, zoophiles, cannibals and the rest of the evil bag. Pretending homosexuality is a choice, against all evidence to the contrary, is just part of this effort.


Please post the evidence…..condensed form if possible.

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## Sentinel

> Some of the folks on here have a pretty unhealthy obsession with dehumanizing homosexuals, conflating them with pedophiles, zoophiles, cannibals and the rest of the evil bag. Pretending homosexuality is a choice, against all evidence to the contrary, is just part of this effort.


Homosexuals dehumanize themselves with their behavior.   Other sexual perverts, like pedophiles, also claim they were born that way and that it's a sexual orientation.

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## catfish

> Homosexuals dehumanize themselves with their behavior.   Other sexual perverts, like pedophiles, also claim they were born that way and that it's a sexual orientation.


yeah ,good luck with that argument…these guys talk out both sides of their mouths..they think just because that what consenting adults with one sexual perversion does excludes all others….hypocritical really.

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## Irascible Crusader

> yeah ,good luck with that argument…these guys talk out both sides of their mouths..they think just because that what consenting adults with one sexual perversion does excludes all others….hypocritical really.


I didn't quite understand that.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

Of course it's not a choice, because if it were, seriously, how many would CHOOSE it?

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Devil505 (03-23-2014)

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## countryboy

> Sexual attraction is very malleable and conditionable.  Maybe Irascible Crusader thinks there's a gene that causes attraction to dresses or limp wrists?  But, we're not talking about someone without much ability to reason, as Irascible Crusader thinks someone who knows converts to judaism was born a Jew.


What language was that post translated to English from? It didn't work.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

Sexual preference is a complex thing, and perhaps more malleable at its earliest stages of development than many believe.

And then there's the fact that female sexuality is very much more malleable than that of males all through life. Women can be sexually attracted to other women FAR more than men are towards other men

In short, women are hard-wired biologically to be more bisexual than men:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e19_1247853077

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## pragmatic

> I'm not talking about the homosexual lifestyle, I'm talking about the same sex inclination.
> 
> Because during the recent debates over homosexuality, I kept hearing people say that people choose to be gay and it's a load of crap.  People discover their sexuality during the onset of adolescence ages 10-13 and they all discover it at the same time.  For all people who are openly gay, this is their testimony. It wasn't something they chose. 
> 
> I can't stress enough that lifestyle is a choice and throughout human history there have been taboos on who can have sex with who and those strictures have made for strong, perpetuating societies. Other civilizations who abandoned themselves into licentiousness quickly dwindled.  This isn't about what people choose to do with their sexual orientation, this is about how they get it to begin with.
> 
> I've found that the "language of hate" consists of fabricating, believing, and spreading untruths about another group of people and this concept goes well beyond just homosexuality.  We've gotten far away from the Christian piety of loving the sinner but hating the sin and some of us, even right here on this forum, find the sin so odious that our visceral feelings extend to taint the person caught up in the sin and there's no better evidence of this than the lies we make up about them.
> 
> The homosexual lifestyle is wrong. *That doesn't make homosexuality a choice*.


Believe the most recent studies/evidence suggest that there is a genetic predisposition toward homosexuality in some people.  

But environmental factors also play a significant role in one's resulting sexual preferences.  (this element contributes more than half of the result according to the research.)  We are all "products of our environments".


So the answer is that there is no simple answer....



..

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Irascible Crusader (03-22-2014)

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## JustPassinThru

> Of course it's not a choice, because if it were, seriously, how many would CHOOSE it?


This gets sticky here.  I would say it's a compulsion - as other deviations are a compulsion.  Pedophilia, exhibitionism, all that.

It's learned; and then wired into the brain; and from then on the compulsion is there.  That does NOT mean they have to ACT on that compulsion.  

Look, most people at some point have some craving for a sexual partner, or type of partner, who is totally inappropriate or inaccessible.  They live with it.

Active, aggressive, practicing homosexuality is an INDULGENCE.  I put their needs right up there with those of pedophiles - or of teen girls who want to throw themselves at bubblegum-rock stars.  Those are inappropriate and unhealthy and so is homosexuality.

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NuYawka (03-22-2014),Old Ridge Runner (03-22-2014),Perianne (03-23-2014)

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## Taylor

For me its a choice to be with my girlfriend but the attraction is not a choice. I am often attracted to guys when im out and about too. They walk by me, im going to check out their ass and stuff and im going to acknowledge in my mind that they are hot and id want to be with him if he gave me the chance at it, but the same exact thing happens to me as well if I see an attractive girl walk by or if I interact with her or meet her. Ive had boyfriends and now I have a girlfriend. I think my girlfriend is hot and I am totally attracted to her in the same way I was attracted to my last boyfriend. My mind doesnt switch or anything like that im just attracted to both. Did I choose to be attracted to both? No I dont believe I did choose it, it just happened in my mind at one point in time and ive been happy about it and accepting of it ever since then. 

Its funny because for a while at a young age if a boy touches a girl then he has girl germs but then almost overnight he becomes attracted to girls and he wants those germs, same for girls with guys pretty much, but there are many people that see both, or just one of the other gender, and it just feels right to them. You can't define it or explain it or dismiss it just because you dont understand it. Anyway thats my opinion.

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## JustPassinThru

> Sexual preference is a complex thing, and perhaps more malleable at its earliest stages of development than many believe.
> 
> And then there's the fact that female sexuality is very much more malleable than that of males all through life. Women can be sexually attracted to other women FAR more than men are towards other men
> 
> In short, women are hard-wired biologically to be more bisexual than men:
> 
> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e19_1247853077


I think that's because social signals are far more approving of lesbian sex than of male homosexuality.  And females much more attuned to social approval than males.

I came of age in a different time - when lesbianism was shameful; suggesting a woman was lesbian was an insult.  We used to catcall it at ugly girls in high school...well, a few of them may have been.  

But in the last twenty years it's suddenly become kewel and something to be encouraged.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

Tay perfectly exemplifies the much greater malleability of female sexuality theory in the article I posted.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

> I think that's because social signals are far more approving of lesbian sex than of male homosexuality.  And females much more attuned to social approval than males.
> 
> I came of age in a different time - when lesbianism was shameful; suggesting a woman was lesbian was an insult.  We used to catcall it at ugly girls in high school...well, a few of them may have been.  
> 
> But in the last twenty years it's suddenly become kewel and something to be encouraged.


According to the research, it's not so much social as biological.

It probably had its origins in the fact that men were much more likely to be killed off in wars, blood feuds and hunting incidents and women were forced into each others company for greater safety and child-rearing purposes.

I remember reading once that, in the decade after the First World War, with so many millions of marriageable young men killed off and disabled, there was a sharp rise in lesbianism in the major combatant countries as women for a time were far more available to other women than men.

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## JustPassinThru

Well...I tend to discount these learned essayists waxing pontificational on Institutional publications.  

I suspect organized sophistry; of the sort that made homosexual sodomy suddenly something to celebrate in the public sphere; instead of manifestation of mental illness and a vector for disease.

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Old Ridge Runner (03-22-2014)

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## Irascible Crusader

> Of course it's not a choice, because if it were, seriously, how many would CHOOSE it?


I've had homosexuals tell me it's a shitty life they would never choose for themselves.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

> I've had homosexuals tell me it's a shitty life they would never choose for themselves.


Totally believe that.

And JPT is right, most gays are deeply neurotic.

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## Mordent

You cannot choose who you're sexually attracted to, but you can choose who you engage in sexual activity with and what level of discretion you exercise. Plain and simple, homosexuality is deviant behavior that nature punishes by declining offspring. It should not be promoted in a healthy society, but it should not be illegalized in a free one, either.

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Old Ridge Runner (03-22-2014)

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> Please post the evidence..condensed form if possible.


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519#.Uy2xuPl_t1Y
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationshi...there-gay-gene
http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html
http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/3641
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...43?dopt=DocSum

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> Well...I tend to discount these learned essayists waxing pontificational on Institutional publications.  
> 
> I suspect organized sophistry; of the sort that made homosexual sodomy suddenly something to celebrate in the public sphere; instead of manifestation of mental illness and a vector for disease.


I know your game. Embrace the experts with open arms when they agree with you, dismiss them as liberal sophists when their findings don't complement your bigotry.

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## JustPassinThru

> I know your game. Embrace the experts with open arms when they agree with you, dismiss them as liberal sophists when their findings don't complement your bigotry.


Yes.

Because I don't turn off my Bullshit Detector when I read the credentials of the person pontificating.

Not all persons with credentials are learned, or honest, or dispassionate and objective.

In fact, in this moral-free world we're now in...MOST are not.

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## NuYawka

> I've had homosexuals tell me it's a shitty life they would never choose for themselves.


Oh please, it's a nationwide fad. Period. 

No wonder the whole world laughs at us, and the fact that gays in our Armed Forces is such a hot-button issue magnifies the world's laughter at us too.




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Gerrard Winstanley

> Yes.
> 
> Because I don't turn off my Bullshit Detector when I read the credentials of the person pontificating.
> 
> Not all persons with credentials are learned, or honest, or dispassionate and objective.
> 
> In fact, in this moral-free world we're now in...MOST are not.


Your theories of homosexuality require there to be some massive progressive conspiracy within the scientific community, spanning dozens of nations and thousands of universities. Still no problem?

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## JustPassinThru

> Your theories of homosexuality require there to be some massive progressive conspiracy within the scientific community, spanning dozens of nations and thousands of universities. Still no problem?


No, a conspiracy throughout the mediuh...selectively editing what they publish; while radicals in universities and the behavioral-sciences pressure and threaten holdouts.

The DSM-II clearly identified homosexuality as a mental illness.  That was softened in the DSM-III and removed in subsequent political rewrites of the formerly-objective _Diagnostic and Statistical Manual_.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Your theories of homosexuality require there to be some massive progressive conspiracy within the scientific community, spanning dozens of nations and thousands of universities. Still no problem?


You think this isn't possible?

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## Katzndogz

Oh please, not one single pervert had a "choice" in their perversion.   A man attracted to goats doesn't have a choice, it's the way he was born.   Serial killers don't have a choice, it's the way they were born.   Homosexuality is no more of a choice than any other perversion.

That said, when normal people start accepting perversion as normal behavior that's when perversion becomes toxic.  Homosexuality has always been a naturally occurring and benign aberration.  But, when it becomes part of the normal human condition, it turns into a poison that kills all that it touches.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Oh please, not one single pervert had a "choice" in their perversion.   A man attracted to goats doesn't have a choice, it's the way he was born.   Serial killers don't have a choice, it's the way they were born.   Homosexuality is no more of a choice than any other perversion.
> 
> That said, when normal people start accepting perversion as normal behavior that's when perversion becomes toxic.  Homosexuality has always been a naturally occurring and benign aberration.  But, when it becomes part of the normal human condition, it turns into a poison that kills all that it touches.


Do you understand the difference between homosexual inclinations and homosexual activity?  Does that distinction go right over your head?

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## Katzndogz

> Do you understand the difference between homosexual inclinations and homosexual activity?  Does that distinction go right over your head?


Not at all.  Whether someone is homosexual because that's the way they were born or just woke up one day and decided to be homosexual is benign.  It doesn't hurt anyone.  It is like any other benign aberrations that people have.   It becomes harmful when these aberrations are accepted as normal that the harm occurs.

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## sachem

No. It's not a choice.

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## NuYawka

> No. It's not a choice.


Yes. Yes it is. 
This is a FAD... the "in" thing, smh. Where were all these gay people just a few short years ago? Probably in bed with the opposite sex and enjoying it.




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Max Rockatansky

> No. It's not a choice.


Agreed as for sexual preference.  Acting on sexual desires is a choice.

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## Matt

Homosexuality is completely a choice. No one is born gay. You don't come out of the womb flipping nature the bird. You decide you want to go against nature. I don't care if you do it, whatever, but don't try to tell me it's not a choice. I might have been born during the day but I wasn't born Yester-day.

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## Archer

> I'm not talking about the homosexual lifestyle, I'm talking about the same sex inclination.
> 
> Because during the recent debates over homosexuality, I kept hearing people say that people choose to be gay and it's a load of crap.  People discover their sexuality during the onset of adolescence ages 10-13 and they all discover it at the same time.  For all people who are openly gay, this is their testimony. It wasn't something they chose. 
> 
> I can't stress enough that lifestyle is a choice and throughout human history there have been taboos on who can have sex with who and those strictures have made for strong, perpetuating societies. Other civilizations who abandoned themselves into licentiousness quickly dwindled.  This isn't about what people choose to do with their sexual orientation, this is about how they get it to begin with.
> 
> I've found that the "language of hate" consists of fabricating, believing, and spreading untruths about another group of people and this concept goes well beyond just homosexuality.  We've gotten far away from the Christian piety of loving the sinner but hating the sin and some of us, even right here on this forum, find the sin so odious that our visceral feelings extend to taint the person caught up in the sin and there's no better evidence of this than the lies we make up about them.
> 
> The homosexual lifestyle is wrong. That doesn't make homosexuality a choice.


Homoseuuality is a choice just as sex is a choice.

People can choose to not be homosexual even if they are attracted to the same sex. Honestly our culture enables them and some are pressured into it.

Simply put; homosexual is the easy way out.

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## hoytmonger

Mrs. Warren Wilhelm Jr. (Chirlane McCray) used to be a lesbian, she even gained praise for writing an article titled "I Am A Lesbian" in Essence magazine in 1979.

Now she's happily married to a male communist for 19 years with two kids.

Obviously no choices made.

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## Max Rockatansky

Do Down's Syndrome babies choose to be retarded?  Spinal Bifida? Cleft palate?  

I didn't choose to be straight or left-handed, I'm just wired that way.  I didn't choose to have male pattern baldness in my forties, it just happened because of genetics.

There are genetic links to sexual preference, but there is no single link nor single gene.  

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/sc...s/nih-upi.html



> ``Being gay is not simply a choice or purely a decision. People have no control over the genes they inherit and there is no way to change them,'' said the study's lead author Dean Hamer, chief of the cancer institute's Section on Gene Structure and Regulation.
> 
> Hamer and his colleagues began by studying the family histories of 114 gay men and found more homosexual brothers, uncles and male cousins than would be expected in the general population. Some families had three generations of homosexual relatives.
> 
> 
> ``Since the uncles and cousins aren't raised in the same household but share genetic information, that suggested there was something inherited going on,'' Hamer said in an interview.
> 
> 
> Following up on that suggestion, Hamer studied the DNA from 40 pairs of homosexual brothers and found 33 of them shared genetic markers on the X chromosome in a region known as Xq28.
> ...

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## Archer

> Do Down's Syndrome babies choose to be retarded?  Spinal Bifida? Cleft palate?  
> 
> I didn't choose to be straight or left-handed, I'm just wired that way.  I didn't choose to have male pattern baldness in my forties, it just happened because of genetics.
> 
> There are genetic links to sexual preference, but there is no single link nor single gene.  
> 
> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/sc...s/nih-upi.html


One can choose to or not to have sex. By this reasoning one can choose to not be homosexual. 


I am a man and I choose to be monogamous. I could choose to chase the females and screw everything I could.

I am sure there are many out there who are attracted to other people of the same sex but I propose that the majority are doing it because they can. The culture enables them... Still better to be gay than sire 10 kids and not be a daddy to them... Oh but the DL culture is another thing.

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## Max Rockatansky

> One can choose to or not to have sex. By this reasoning one can choose to not be homosexual.


Correct.  Incorrect because there is a difference between being heterosexual or homosexual and committing a heterosexual or homosexual act.  The first is genetically base, like skin color.  The second is a choice.    You didn't choose your race, but you can certainly choose your conduct as noted in this quote:



> I am a man and I choose to be monogamous. I could choose to chase the females and screw everything I could.

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Irascible Crusader (03-22-2014)

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## Archer

> Correct.  Incorrect because there is a difference between being heterosexual or homosexual and committing a heterosexual or homosexual act.  The first is genetically base, like skin color.  The second is a choice.    You didn't choose your race, but you can certainly choose your conduct as noted in this quote:


I am not saying that some are not (possibly) genetically predisposed to it. I am saying the majority are not genetically predisposed to it.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Homosexuality is completely a choice. No one is born gay. You don't come out of the womb flipping nature the bird. You decide you want to go against nature. I don't care if you do it, whatever, but don't try to tell me it's not a choice. I might have been born during the day but I wasn't born Yester-day.


So all the gay people saying they discovered their sexuality during puberty are lying.  Good one.

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NuYawka (03-23-2014)

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## Max Rockatansky

> I am not saying that some are not (possibly) genetically predisposed to it. I am saying the majority are not genetically predisposed to it.


My studies of the situation indicate that people aren't "either/or".  That, like handedness, most are right-handers, some are left-handers and some are ambidextrous.  The latter are hard to figure out because the question comes up, "Were they born ambidextrous or are they left-handed and the majority right-handed world has encouraged them to use their right hand?"  Of the left-handers, some, like me, have normal left-right brains with the left being more linear things like language/speech and math while the right brain is more holistic.  Other left-handers, more rare, are mirror-image right-handers.  Their brains are flipped around and, thus, their handedness.

In homosexuals, it seems there are 2% who are, even if they _choose_ to act straight. Another 2% or less who are "ambi".  The rest just seem to choose to act against their sexual preference for whatever reason.

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## Archer

> So all the gay people saying they discovered their sexuality during puberty are lying.  Good one.


Lying? No but many are just sex fiends. Still there is the matter of nature vs nurture. \The media and society mess with the kids brains and the wiring.

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## Roadmaster

> So all the gay people saying they discovered their sexuality during puberty are lying.  Good one.


 How can you say this. Is Jesus too lying.

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## Matt

> So all the gay people saying they discovered their sexuality during puberty are lying.  Good one.


Yes, it is a good one. They're clearly good liars. Good joke there friend.

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## NuYawka

...

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## NuYawka

> So all the gay people saying they discovered their sexuality during puberty are lying.


Did NOT mean to thank this post. Clicked it instead of the reply button. 

YES. They're all lying. 




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Taylor

OMFG they are not lying. I wasnt lying when I was attracted to my previous boyfriends and im not lying to myself now about being attracted to my current girlfriend. Some people are attracted to guys, some to girls, some to both, but that attraction is not a lie. There was a time in all of your lives when you saw a girl or a guy and said to yourself "yeah I want that". Maybe then you realized you were straight or that you were gay, but you didnt wake up one morning and decide that you will be gay today or straight today for this or that reason unless you have some pretty fucking deceptive intentions to start with. Most people know if they are gay or bi early on however some people take longer than others to accept it. Ive always had an attraction to both guys and girls and I cant just get rid of that today by choice, it's just me being me, and if you think im living a lie then fuck off and live your own life however you want without thinking you know about mine.

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## Max Rockatansky

> OMFG they are not lying. I wasnt lying when I was attracted to my previous boyfriends and im not lying now about being attracted to my current girlfriend. Some people are attracted to guys, some to girls, some to both, but that attraction is not a lie.


First, some people will refuse to listen to anything outside of their current worldview.  Get used to it because if you don't, you're just going to make life a lot harder than it needs to be.

Second, what attracts a person to another is both odd and the subject of centuries poetry, plays and books.

Example; shortly after my divorce I fell deeply and passionately in love with a woman.  She was intelligent, sexy and, as it turned out, completely nuts.  Okay, let's say a highly emotional drama queen.  She was the type to "test" my love or fake-breakup to see if I'd chase her.  I loved her, and still do to tell the truth, but there is no fucking way that relationship was ever going to work out. 

My current relationship isn't as passionate, but she's my best friend.  I do love her even if it isn't the romantic head-over-heels kind of love I had for the drama queen.   We don't always have a choice who we fall in love with, but we do have a choice in whom we have a relationship with.

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## Irascible Crusader

> OMFG they are not lying. I wasnt lying when I was attracted to my previous boyfriends and im not lying now about being attracted to my current girlfriend. Some people are attracted to guys, some to girls, some to both, but that attraction is not a lie. There was a time in all of your lives when you saw a girl or a guy and said to yourself "yeah I want that". Maybe then you realized you were straight or that you were gay, but you didnt wake up one morning and decide that you will be gay today or straight today for this or that reason unless you have some pretty fucking deceptive intentions to start with. Most people know if they are gay or bi early on however some people take longer than others to accept it. Ive always had an attraction to both guys and girls and I cant just get rid of that today by choice, it's just me being me, and if you think im living a lie then fuck off and live your own life however you want without thinking you know about mine.


Tay, I sympathize with you, especially after reading these very disappointing responses including the ones claiming that all homosexuals who testify about when the found they were gay are lying.  Instead of talking about them, I'll make it personal.  I can't possibly have any kind of conversation with homosexuals when we aren't even on the same page. There's nothing more offensive and nothing that shuts down an exchange of ideas faster than for me to harbor a false belief and obstinately hold to it in spite of conflicting evidence and in spite you telling me different.  If I call you a liar, you are immediately turned off to me and rightly so.  

The problem with many people posting on this thread is that they talk endlessly about homosexuals but never talk to them. I hope this helps you understand how falsehoods can be sustained indefinitely in these circles simply because they got their own little echo chamber that they vigorously defend against the infiltration of alternative viewpoints.  I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle and I think it's wrong for people personally and for society as a whole.  You and I can discuss that difference of opinion. But I promise you one thing, I'm going to listen to you, to my other gay friends, and to homosexuals in general and we're going to have a conversation on the common ground of truth.

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Taylor (03-23-2014)

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## Matt

> The problem with many people posting on this thread is that they talk endlessly about homosexuals but never talk to them.


I have lots of gay friends. Got one in NYC trying to pursue acting, my best friend's father turned gay in his mid-forties, I know gay paramedics, and all sorts. Hell my commanding officer is gay and I get along with him. So that point is rather stupid in and of itself. I know lots of people, of all sorts, but that's not going to change my opinion in any bit. The people I know aren't the crusaders you hear about on the news, they're not the shove it in your face type of guys and gals, they'll respect your opinion if you respect theirs. There is no black and white on this subject. I'll remind you....YOU are the one who suggested they we're lying. Sarcastically....sure. However....YOU we're still the one to insert that variable into the debate. So don't try to play it of to Tay that you're some sort of hero or some crap. You're responsible for that variable.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I have lots of gay friends. Got one in NYC trying to pursue acting, my best friend's father turned gay in his mid-forties, I know gay paramedics, and all sorts. Hell my commanding officer is gay and I get along with him. So that point is rather stupid in and of itself. I know lots of people, of all sorts, but that's not going to change my opinion in any bit. The people I know aren't the crusaders you hear about on the news, they're not the shove it in your face type of guys and gals, they'll respect your opinion if you respect theirs. There is no black and white on this subject. I'll remind you....YOU are the one who suggested they we're lying. Sarcastically....sure. However....YOU we're still the one to insert that variable into the debate. So don't try to play it of to Tay that you're some sort of hero or some crap. You're responsible for that variable.


Why don't you ask them when they first discovered they were gay?

And after you ask, try to actually _listen._

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## Matt

> Why don't you ask them when they first discovered they were gay?
> 
> And after you ask, try to actually _listen._


I have done that. They made a choice. They we're proud of their choice. Now we have some half assed thread trying to tell them that their choice was invalid. I don't care to believe that people are against nature from the start. That's really not possible and it's not going to fly. These people made a choice. I don't care that they made a choice. However I wont discount their choice. I think you could do well by _listening_ as well. The only reason I'm even bothering is because you are directly responsible for the word "liar" coming up in this thread. Now you're trying to get out of it. I'm not going to let you Obama your way out of it.

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## Devil505

> I have done that. They made a choice. They we're proud of their choice. Now we have some half assed thread trying to tell them that their choice was invalid. I don't care to believe that people are against nature from the start. That's really not possible and it's not going to fly. These people made a choice. I don't care that they made a choice. However I wont discount their choice. I think you could do well by _listening_ as well. The only reason I'm even bothering is because you are directly responsible for the word "liar" coming up in this thread. Now you're trying to get out of it. I'm not going to let you Obama your way out of it.


What a crock!
I can remember when I was maybe 6 or 7 yrs old staring at pictures of scantily clad women & finding it pleasurable & not understanding why.
No such pleasure at looking at any men.

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Irascible Crusader (03-23-2014)

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## Irascible Crusader

> I have done that. They made a choice. They we're proud of their choice. Now we have some half assed thread trying to tell them that their choice was invalid. I don't care to believe that people are against nature from the start. That's really not possible and it's not going to fly. These people made a choice. I don't care that they made a choice. However I wont discount their choice. I think you could do well by _listening_ as well. The only reason I'm even bothering is because you are directly responsible for the word "liar" coming up in this thread. Now you're trying to get out of it. I'm not going to let you Obama your way out of it.


Oh, STFU!  The only ones that brought up the word "liar" on this thread were those saying that gays claiming their sexual inclinations became evident when they were kids were all liars.  Go back and read it again.  I also don't think you're distinguishing sexual orientation with deciding to come out of the closet and live a gay lifestyle.  Either that or you're claiming that all your gay friends told you they chose to be attracted to the same sex.  I don't believe any of them did. There's that L word again.

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## Matt

> Oh, STFU!  The only ones that brought up the word "liar" on this thread were those saying that gays claiming their sexual inclinations became evident when they were kids were all liars.  Go back and read it again.  I also don't think you're distinguishing sexual orientation with deciding to come out of the closet and live a gay lifestyle.  Either that or you're claiming that all your gay friends told you they chose to be attracted to the same sex.  I don't believe any of them did. There's that L word again.


I'll STFU when you you STFU. You started this thread, you started this drama, you started this nonsense. Go back and figure it out. I suggest starting at the OP. I don't believe any of the bullshit you're saying either...but look on the bright side...I wont insinuate that anyone's a liar....you already did that. You'll have to own to it. Even if you don't...the rest of us have eyes...and we wont let you slip out of it.

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## Calypso Jones

> Some of the folks on here have a pretty unhealthy obsession with dehumanizing homosexuals, conflating them with pedophiles, zoophiles, cannibals and the rest of the evil bag. Pretending homosexuality is a choice, against all evidence to the contrary, is just part of this effort.



you realize exactly what I meant in my remark.   You cannot claim that homosexuality  or cannibalism in the animal kingdom  is any reason to make it acceptable in the human species.

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## Irascible Crusader

> I'll STFU when you you STFU. You started this thread, you started this drama, you started this nonsense. Go back and figure it out. I suggest starting at the OP. I don't believe any of the bullshit you're saying either...but look on the bright side...I wont insinuate that anyone's a liar....you already did that. You'll have to own to it. Even if you don't...the rest of us have eyes...and we wont let you slip out of it.


I know what I wrote in the OP. I accused people of ignorance.  I didn't accuse anyone of lying until you made the bullshit claim that all your gay friends told you they chose their sexual preference.

And since you're fond of speaking for everyone on this thread, I'll make the equally meritless claim that _everyone_ knows your full of shit in claiming that.

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## Matt

> I know what I wrote in the OP. I accused people of ignorance.  I didn't accuse anyone of lying until you made the bullshit claim that all your gay friends told you they chose their sexual preference.
> 
> And since you're fond of speaking for everyone on this thread, I'll make the equally meritless claim that _everyone_ knows your full of shit in claiming that.


My "bullshit" claim is true...whether you want to lie to yourself or not. Listen with your ears not with your mouth. Being a jerk puts you above no one. 

You can claim being gay is natural. You can claim water bottles can play poker. You can claim squirrels can do algebra. I don't care what you claim. Your claims are your opinion. 

Just like my claims are my opinion.

I don't know why you are going so far out of your way to be a asshole to me...but I don't think it's deserved, nor do I think it's right, nor do I think you'll ever own up to it.

You'll keep trucking on, because, as is evident...your opinion is absolute. Above all others. Debate is meaningless unless you can rant above those you seek to discuss with. Must be nice. 

I don't have those skills. I'm pretty nice (to you even more so than others), and I don't presume to talk over others, I don't think I'm smarter than anyone else here, and I can't hold this silly nonsensical debate that you're waging. My opinion is an opinion...and I recognize that. I cannot compete with someone who thinks his opinion is law. So with that said...I hope someone else comes in to engage you...but I'm not going to indulge you any further.

Have a good day. See you in another thread.

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## Archer

Okay! Attracted and noting wrong with gay or hetero. It is genetic and there is not a thing wrong with it... Perfectly normal!

Same with men and women who molest little boys and girls! They were made that way and should not be accountable!

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## Irascible Crusader

> Okay! Attracted and noting wrong with gay or hetero. It is genetic and there is not a thing wrong with it... Perfectly normal!
> 
> Same with men and women who molest little boys and girls! They were made that way and should not be accountable!


Go back and read the OP.  You clearly missed that I'm talking only about the sexual inclination, not people's actions. And it's ridiculous to say that not being able to control one's attraction is the same as not being able to control one's choices.  I think you know better.

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Archer (03-23-2014)

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## Archer

This is not supposed to be here... I hit cancel.

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## Sentinel

> What a crock!
> I can remember when I was maybe 6 or 7 yrs old staring at pictures of scantily clad women & finding it pleasurable & not understanding why.
> No such pleasure at looking at any men.


Unless raised by faggots, even at 6 or 7, you would have been taught there's something special about a woman.   Unless raised by nudists, seeing a picture of a scantily clad woman would have been a chance to see something normally kept hidden from you.  Besides, women are pretty to look at.  But, men are gross.  That's why man needs money to get a woman, you know what I mean.  

At 6 or 7, your sexual machinery hadn't yet activated.  You'd have  stronger case for faggots being born that way if they said a 6 or 7 they found scantily clad women pleasurable to look at (because of environment/socialization), but when they hit puberty, it was gross men (or dead animals, whatever) that aroused them (because of biology).

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## Perianne

> Some of the folks on here have a pretty unhealthy obsession with dehumanizing homosexuals, conflating them with pedophiles, zoophiles, cannibals and the rest of the evil bag. Pretending homosexuality is a choice, against all evidence to the contrary, is just part of this effort.


Maybe we could recruit some posters from here to balance things out:

http://gayspeak.com/

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## Irascible Crusader

> My "bullshit" claim is true...whether you want to lie to yourself or not. Listen with your ears not with your mouth. Being a jerk puts you above no one. 
> 
> You can claim being gay is natural. You can claim water bottles can play poker. You can claim squirrels can do algebra. I don't care what you claim. Your claims are your opinion. 
> 
> Just like my claims are my opinion.
> 
> I don't know why you are going so far out of your way to be a asshole to me...but I don't think it's deserved, nor do I think it's right, nor do I think you'll ever own up to it.
> 
> You'll keep trucking on, because, as is evident...your opinion is absolute. Above all others. Debate is meaningless unless you can rant above those you seek to discuss with. Must be nice. 
> ...


Ok Cal.  The "you're a meanie" defense is just a way to spin out of an argument you can't win while fixing the blame elsewhere.  Yeah, see you in another thread. Hope you do better next time.

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## NuYawka

> Same with men and women who molest little boys and girls! They were made that way and should not be accountable!


You've GOT to be joking! 
Do you have any children? 




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Maybe we could recruit some posters from here to balance things out:
> 
> http://gayspeak.com/


LOL. You could get 100 more gays on this site insisting that they discovered their sexual inclinations when they were adolescents and still people here will call them ALL liars.

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## Devil505

> Unless raised by faggots, even at 6 or 7, you would have been taught there's something special about a woman.   Unless raised by nudists, seeing a picture of a scantily clad woman would have been a chance to see something normally kept hidden from you.


 Photos of the inside of an automobile transmission was "a chance to see something normally kept hidden ".....but would not have aroused pleasurable feelings any more than photos of men on the beach did.
We are born with certain eye/hair/skin colors, and certain sexual attractions built-into our brains.
We don't choose to become attracted to the same sex anymore than we choose how tall we will be.






> At 6 or 7, your sexual machinery hadn't yet activated. You'd have stronger case for faggots being born that way if they said a 6 or 7 they found scantily clad women pleasurable to look at (because of environment/socialization), but when they hit puberty, it was gross men (or dead animals, whatever) that aroused them (because of biology).


Even though one's sexual machinery hasn't yet activated .....that does not preclude what one's inborn attraction may be toward.....only the ability to act on that attraction.

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## Matt

> Ok Cal.  The "you're a meanie" defense is just a way to spin out of an argument you can't win while fixing the blame elsewhere.  Yeah, see you in another thread. Hope you do better next time.


Not really. There's a fine line between "worth my time" and "not worth my time" and you are dancing around it nicely. Out of respect I'm going to tell you that and leave. If you are going to continue to attack me after I leave...I'll report you. I left the debate. It's done. You don't even need to care any longer. Besides...I did not call you a meanie...I called you an asshole....because that's how you are acting. Good luck next time to you as well.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Not really. There's a fine line between "worth my time" and "not worth my time" and you are dancing around it nicely. Out of respect I'm going to tell you that and leave. If you are going to continue to attack me after I leave...I'll report you. I left the debate. It's done. You don't even need to care any longer. Besides...I did not call you a meanie...I called you an asshole....because that's how you are acting. Good luck next time to you as well.


Report me.  Apparently you're not that familiar with the rules if you think I can't respond to your posts after you "leave" an argument.  Where the hell you came up with that idea I guess I'll never find out.

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## Matt

> Report me.  Apparently you're not that familiar with the rules if you think I can't respond to your posts after you "leave" an argument.  Where the hell you came up with that idea I guess I'll never find out.


You can respond...just have the common decency to not. All I ask. Be an adult. Pretend if you must.

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## Irascible Crusader

> You can respond...just have the common decency to not. All I ask. Be an adult. Pretend if you must.


Ok, friend  :Smile:

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## NuYawka

DAMMIT  :Mad: 
I'd just made popcorn! uploadfromtaptalk1395613040934.jpg




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Matalese

> Not really. There's a fine line between "worth my time" and "not worth my time" and you are dancing around it nicely. Out of respect I'm going to tell you that and leave. If you are going to continue to attack me after I leave...I'll report you. I left the debate. It's done. You don't even need to care any longer. Besides...I did not call you a meanie...I called you an asshole....because that's how you are acting. Good luck next time to you as well.


Calling people assholes is against the rules of decorum and de forum!

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## NuYawka

I got called an asshole on another thread here just a couple hours ago. Have I set a record for being the person with the least posts to ever get called an asshole? 




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

> I got called an asshole on another thread here just a couple hours ago. Have I set a record for being the person with the least posts to ever get called an asshole? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >> I think signatures are stupid.


Hey! Hey!

_I'M_ the forum asshole! Are you trying to cut into my territory?!?!?! :Angry20: 

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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NuYawka (03-23-2014)

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## NuYawka

> Hey! Hey!
> 
> _I'M_ the forum asshole! Are you trying to cut into my territory?!?!?!


Well can I at least be the forum scumbag?  :Frown: 




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

> Well can I at least be the forum scumbag? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >> I think signatures are stupid.


Oh, all right!

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NuYawka (03-23-2014)

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## Archer

> Hey! Hey!
> 
> _I'M_ the forum asshole! Are you trying to cut into my territory?!?!?!


Hey Asshole, I am Sr. Asshole round these parts!

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## NuYawka

> Oh, all right!


Thanks!!  :Big Grin: 




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

> Hey Asshole, I am Sr. Asshole round these parts!


Hmmmm....given your much higher post count, I must reluctantly cede that position to you.

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Archer (03-23-2014)

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## Max Rockatansky

> I got called an asshole on another thread here just a couple hours ago. Have I set a record for being the person with the least posts to ever get called an asshole?


No, but for most Yankees, being an asshole is a given so calling you one is redundant.

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## NuYawka

> No, but for most Yankees, being an asshole is a given so calling you one is redundant.


heh heh




>> I think signatures are stupid.

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## Perianne

I have avoided this thread because if I were a man I would be homosexual.  I am not interested in doing the dirty with girls.

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## Archer

> I have avoided this thread because if I were a man I would be homosexual.  I am not interested in doing the dirty with girls.


Well if you were a man things would be a little different.

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## Rudy2D

> Ok, friend


Where is?

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