# Politics and News > World Affairs >  Civil war in Ukraine is likely to be winner-take-all

## pjohns

Things are starting to come to a head in Ukraine.  (As one commentator put it, just yesterday, this appears impervious to any possibility of a negotiated settlement.  One side will entirely vanquish the other--nothing in between.)  

Here is a bit more on the matter:




> When Ukraines largely peaceful anti-government protests turned violent last November, President Viktor Yanukovych attempted to explain away the extreme response of riot police: He could not have protestors in the city center delaying setup for the Christmas tree and ice skating rink. Those comments became the focal point of jokes, but a new joke is going around: How long does it take a Ukrainian to change a light bulb? Two weeks. How long does it take him to build a barricade? Fifteen minutes.
> 
> Kievs protests have escalated into a movement with military-style camps, barricades massive enough to keep out tanks, and a full-scale takeover of the capitals main square and government buildings throughout the country. 
> 
> After months of demonstrations that have at times attracted hundreds of thousands of people, Ukraines protests are no laughing matter: At least six people were killed during violent clashes between police and protesters in January. And the government has confiscated cell phone numbers of tens of thousands of protesters in the square, sending them this message: Dear subscriber: You are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.


And the link to the entire article:  http://www.worldmag.com/2014/02/wint...the_barricades

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phoenyx (07-18-2022)

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## hoytmonger

The US state department and CIA are behind the violence...




> In the latest debacle for the US State Department and the Obama Administration, US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland was caught on tape micro-managing Ukraine opposition party strategies with US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt. That the Ukraine regime-change operation is to some degree being directed from Washington can no longer be denied.
> 
> The tape (listen below) was released today, on the eve of Nuland's second trip to meet with Ukrainian protestors and opposition leaders in the past two months -- last time she passed out cookies to protestors. 
> 
> 
> The taped conversation demonstrates in clear detail that while Secretary of State John Kerry decries any foreign meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs, his State Department is virtually managing the entire process. The "F**k the EU" part is her expressing anger that the EU is not moving fast enough with regime change in Ukraine and her plan is to get the UN involved in the process.


http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...pposition.aspx

http://www.storyleak.com/kiev-protes...tion-progress/
http://www.storyleak.com/ukraine-cia...or-revolution/

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michaelr (02-19-2014)

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## michaelr

> Things are starting to come to a head in Ukraine.  (As one commentator put it, just yesterday, this appears impervious to any possibility of a negotiated settlement.  One side will entirely vanquish the other--nothing in between.)  
> 
> Here is a bit more on the matter:
> 
> 
> And the link to the entire article:  http://www.worldmag.com/2014/02/wint...the_barricades


On the other board I proved beyond any shadow of a doubt that Obama and his state department started this. I can transfer all that here if need be. Think Egypt, Libya, and Syria.

They wanted Ukraine to submit to the EU, instead Putin loaned them 13 billion dollars. This pissed the control freaks off.

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## pjohns

> The US state department and CIA are behind the violence...
> 
> 
> 
> http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...pposition.aspx
> 
> http://www.storyleak.com/kiev-protes...tion-progress/
> http://www.storyleak.com/ukraine-cia...or-revolution/


I am not sure that a website dedicated to "truth in news"--thereby implying that traditional sources of news dissemination are impure--is entirely neutral.  (I am speaking here, of course, of _Storyleak_.)

As for the neutrality of the other source set forth--the _Ron Paul Institute_--well, it pretty much speaks for itself...

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## michaelr

> I am not sure that a website dedicated to "truth in news"--thereby implying that traditional sources of news dissemination are impure--is entirely neutral.  (I am speaking here, of course, of _Storyleak_.)
> 
> As for the neutrality of the other source set forth--the _Ron Paul Institute_--well, it pretty much speaks for itself...


I can change your mind with one, perhaps two audios from a state dept personnel and an UN fuck.

This is staged just like the rest.

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## Katzndogz

Oddly enough, obama is threatening sanctions against the Ukraine for not giving in to the protesters.   Of course with UN sanctions, the EU will not be able to do business with the Ukraine, leaving only Russia as a trading partner.   It doesn't really make sense does it?  

Democrats who tell the US that obama was elected so whatever he does or decides we all have to abide by his actions.  Yet, the Ukranians don't have to suck up what their president does, who was just as elected as obama!  It doesn't really make sense does it?  

If any of the uprising in the Ukraine is traced to obama, it is an act of war.  Not a mouthy fiddle faddle act of war but a real and serious act of war.

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michaelr (02-19-2014),Roadmaster (02-19-2014)

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## Teutorian

Putin is a great man and an effective leader and strategist.
The West is run by charlatans and drug addicts.

It doesn't take a real genius to see who is going to come out on top in the long term.

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## hoytmonger

Is it not also an act of war to fund and arm known terrorist organizations and support the uprisings and 'regime change' in Libya, Egypt and Syria? I won't get into drone strikes in sovereign foreign countries. For a Nobel Peace Prize recipient, PrezBO is adept at causing violence.

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## hoytmonger

> Putin is a great man and an effective leader and strategist.
> The West is run by charlatans and drug addicts.
> 
> It doesn't take a real genius to see who is going to come out on top in the long term.


Putin is a thug, always was and always will be. Russia is falling apart, the Olympics is evidence of this.

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pjohns (02-20-2014)

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## michaelr

> Is it not also an act of war to fund and arm known terrorist organizations and support the uprisings and 'regime change' in Libya, Egypt and Syria? I won't get into drone strikes in sovereign foreign countries. For a Nobel Peace Prize recipient, PrezBO is adept at causing violence.


Not only that, but in Obama's case, treason.

I posted a bunch of stuff today on a Benghazi thread, enough to indict and probably convict him.

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## Katzndogz

> Putin is a thug, always was and always will be. Russia is falling apart, the Olympics is evidence of this.


The Olympics are going along just fine.   Russia is not falling apart.   In actuality, the United State is falling apart.   President Putin might be a thug, there is no argument there, he was head of the KGB, after all.  But, he is a better and more effective leader than obama is.  Even as a thug, even as an ex KGB operative, President Putin is a better man and a better human being than obama is.

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## Teutorian

> Putin is a thug, always was and always will be. Russia is falling apart, the Olympics is evidence of this.


Wow.
You're delusional.

Go check the national debt and look out your window, and then get back to me.

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michaelr (02-19-2014),Perianne (02-19-2014),Roadmaster (02-19-2014)

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## Irascible Crusader

Has anyone noticed how further ahead the Ukrainians are?  At least they understand that despots are to be opposed, not catered and voted for.

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michaelr (02-19-2014)

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## michaelr

> Has anyone noticed how further ahead the Ukrainians are?  At least they understand that despots are to be opposed, not catered and voted for.


Americans are kept dumbed down. Lots of things to blame for that.

I think it was just yesterday, the Chinese were laughing at the American people, because they are so dumb that they don't have a single clue as to how close the dollar is to collaps.

A dumb public is a good public~Control Freaks Et Al

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## Irascible Crusader

> Americans are kept dumbed down. Lots of things to blame for that.
> 
> I think it was just yesterday, the Chinese were laughing at the American people, because they are so dumb that they don't have a single clue as to how close the dollar is to collaps.
> 
> A dumb public is a good public~Control Freaks Et Al


We'll give land to the Chinese to satisfy part of our debt to them. That will stabilize the dollar for a little bit, like the Titanic righted itself before its final decent.

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## michaelr

> We'll give land to the Chinese to satisfy part of our debt to them. That will stabilize the dollar for a little bit, like the Titanic righted itself before its final decent.


The Chinese holds allot less debt then most thing. They have been bleeding it for years. Their dollars have been used on gold, and food processing plants in the US. 

This deal in Ukraine was manufactured, they rely on the dollar and debt. The control freaks wanted them absorbed into the EU for their assets.

People better get their shit together...

The EU hasn't been closer to collapse then it today. You hear nothing about that. We have CDS's and Currency Swaps with these people. The euro dies and the dollar goes with it. The Ukrainian assets were supposed to allow a little time.

Putin told the west last week that the 13 billion was a lone, and if the western backed coup prevails, and the loan isn't paid back, Russia will invade. I think that warning was meant to be broader then that, meaning if the coup succeeds, Russia will invade.

This is Egypt, Syria, Libya, and Georgia all over again, and comes directly from the playbook used in Operation Ajax.

These people have finger prints, once you know them, you know them.

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## DonGlock26

Obama has drawn another red line at 1:25.  :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## Irascible Crusader

> The Chinese holds allot less debt then most thing. They have been bleeding it for years. Their dollars have been used on gold, and food processing plants in the US. 
> 
> This deal in Ukraine was manufactured, they rely on the dollar and debt. The control freaks wanted them absorbed into the EU for their assets.
> 
> People better get their shit together...
> 
> The EU hasn't been closer to collapse then it today. You hear nothing about that. We have CDS's and Currency Swaps with these people. The euro dies and the dollar goes with it. The Ukrainian assets were supposed to allow a little time.
> 
> Putin told the west last week that the 13 billion was a lone, and if the western backed coup prevails, and the loan isn't paid back, Russia will invade. I think that warning was meant to be broader then that, meaning if the coup succeeds, Russia will invade.
> ...


Russia has the least moral authority when it comes to currencies. They went into default. It's the reason nobody trades the Ruble.

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## michaelr

> Russia has the least moral authority when it comes to currencies. They went into default. It's the reason nobody trades the Ruble.


Russia went into default? Huh?

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## michaelr

> Obama has drawn another red line at 1:25.


They foment dissent with their rent-a-riots, then use them for regime change. We the serfs, we get to pay for this madness, if you ain't a tax exempt TBTJail bank or multinational, you're on the paying end.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Russia went into default? Huh?


Yes. In 1998. Their currency isn't worth the paper it's printed on in the international market.

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## michaelr

> Yes. In 1998. Their currency isn't worth the paper it's printed on in the international market.


Dude, that was then, this is the now. Hear of the BRICS? Russia is oil rich, and ruble wise. Between them and China, you can kiss the dollar hegemony good by, and that is the number one risk to the dollar. Obama's insane version of QE, and ZIRP over the last five years is why the dollar doesn't trade. For hell sake, if they don't give the t-bills to the banks, no one would be holding them.

Are you kidding me? I don't mean to be arrogant, but you gotta know your facts.

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## Teutorian

> Yes. In 1998. Their currency isn't worth the paper it's printed on in the international market.


Putin has completely transformed the Russian economy and it has done nothing but grow and grow and grow since he came to power.
The Russians and Chinese have strong leadership, gold and money. America and the EU have fools and massive debt.

Shouldn't take a whole lot of foresight to see who ends up on top.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Dude, that was then, this is the now. Hear of the BRICS? Russia is oil rich, and ruble wise. Between them and China, you can kiss the dollar hegemony good by, and that is the number one risk to the dollar. Obama's insane version of QE, and ZIRP over the last five years is why the dollar doesn't trade. For hell sake, if they don't give the t-bills to the banks, no one would be holding them.
> 
> Are you kidding me? I don't mean to be arrogant, but you gotta know your facts.


Which International Forex exchanges is the ruble traded on?


Oh, that's right. None of them.  Nobody trusts the ruble for shit.

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## michaelr

> Which International Forex exchanges is the ruble traded on?
> 
> 
> Oh, that's right. None of them.  Nobody trusts the ruble for shit.


Rage. Try the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. Want the rate? 
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/fx/e...fications.html

Globex as well. I mean you can trade the dollar there too, if one is foolish enough.

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## michaelr

rubles to dollars .028 Ruble = 1 dollar.
http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/...rom=RUB&To=USD

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## beatleboy

> Putin is a great man and an effective leader and strategist.
> The West is run by charlatans and drug addicts.
> 
> It doesn't take a real genius to see who is going to come out on top in the long term.


 Putin is a powerful wealthy man, don't think i'd call him great, that's quite the accolade, strategist, leader, doesn't make one an overall great man, just good at some things, looking at the whole picture, i'd call him great in one area, he is a great communist, it's in his soul, he fits in with Stalin and Lenin imo, different times but deep down Putin is an old time communist, if he lived in the time of the afore mentioned, he would do as they did, hell, he had the Cossacks whip Pussy Riot for speaking out, no great man in my book.

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pjohns (02-20-2014),Rudy2D (02-19-2014)

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## beatleboy

> The Olympics are going along just fine.   Russia is not falling apart.   In actuality, the United State is falling apart.   President Putin might be a thug, there is no argument there, he was head of the KGB, after all.  But, he is a better and more effective leader than obama is.  Even as a thug, even as an ex KGB operative, President Putin is a better man and a better human being than obama is.


  Putin the communist, a better man? a better human being than Obama?, seen Obama call out the thugs to beat and whip his citizens because they spoke out against him?, arrest and jail cause you are gay?, hmmm, if you think that constitutes a man, and a good human being, what I see here is partisan hate for Obama, or a communist.

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## michaelr

They came to their senses.
http://www.essentialprepper.com/ukra....TQZf8MBH.dpbs




> Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych said late Wednesday he and protest leaders had agreed to a “truce” following several days of violent clashes that left at least 26 dead.
> 
> 
> A statement from Yanukovych’s office also said both sides had agreed to begin negotiations “aimed at cessation of bloodshed and stabilization of the situation.”


7

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## michaelr

They came to their senses.
http://www.essentialprepper.com/ukra....TQZf8MBH.dpbs




> Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych said late Wednesday he and protest leaders had agreed to a truce following several days of violent clashes that left at least 26 dead.
> 
> 
> A statement from Yanukovychs office also said both sides had agreed to begin negotiations aimed at cessation of bloodshed and stabilization of the situation.

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## Roadmaster

> Putin is a powerful wealthy man, don't think i'd call him great, that's quite the accolade, strategist, leader, doesn't make one an overall great man, just good at some things, looking at the whole picture, i'd call him great in one area, he is a great communist, it's in his soul, he fits in with Stalin and Lenin imo, different times but deep down Putin is an old time communist, if he lived in the time of the afore mentioned, he would do as they did, hell, he had the Cossacks whip Pussy Riot for speaking out, no great man in my book.


 Pussy Riot putting a stolen chicken up her in public and going into a Church and trashing it while doing vile things. This group is vile and she wasn't beaten because of being gay. This group is sick.

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Perianne (02-19-2014)

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## Roadmaster

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said.“They are now trying to blame us, accusations are made by some politicians in Western countries, who say that Russia is to blame for everything because it is trying to ‘re-Sovietize’ the post-Soviet space. These attempts use bad methods,”
Lavrov told a press conference after meeting with his Kuwaiti counterpart.
Lavrov said he is confident that “any reasonable and impartial observer understands that very well.”
“We confirm that the situation should be settled by the current administration of Ukraine within the framework of the constitutional prerogatives and we caution against attempts of intrusive mediation.
It seems to me that our European partners have done enough ‘mediation,’” Lavrov said.
Lavrov said Russia is calling for the interests of the people of Ukraine to be put above geopolitical interests.

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## hoytmonger

> The Olympics are going along just fine.   Russia is not falling apart.   In actuality, the United State is falling apart.   President Putin might be a thug, there is no argument there, he was head of the KGB, after all.  But, he is a better and more effective leader than obama is.  Even as a thug, even as an ex KGB operative, President Putin is a better man and a better human being than obama is.





> Wow.
> You're delusional.
> 
> Go check the national debt and look out your window, and then get back to me.


The Olympic site wasn't even completed by the start of the games. Stray dogs were being shot around Sochi as visitors arrived. It's the most expensive Olympics to date and the construction is second rate, Russian mafya pocketing the proceeds. Corruption is endemic in both government and business.
Putin tortured people for a living, now he's a head of state... what a great guy.

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## hoytmonger

> Putin has completely transformed the Russian economy and it has done nothing but grow and grow and grow since he came to power.
> The Russians and Chinese have strong leadership, gold and money. America and the EU have fools and massive debt.
> 
> Shouldn't take a whole lot of foresight to see who ends up on top.


The Russian economy is stagnant and will likely fall as revenue from gas and oil exports decline... why do you think they're so involved in Iran and Syria? Why do you think they've such an interest in Ukraine? Ukraine has long been known as the breadbasket of Europe, which is why your man Hitler occupied the region... to starve out the 'useless eaters.'

The oligarchs in Russia are enjoying great (they were pissed when Cypress took 30% from their bank accounts) wealth while the civilian population struggles. Russia is fascist to the core, completely state run... the US is still in a soft-fascist mode and wishes to become more like Russia, but it has to break the current system first.

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## Irascible Crusader

> The Russian economy is stagnant and will likely fall as revenue from gas and oil exports decline... why do you think they're so involved in Iran and Syria? Why do you think they've such an interest in Ukraine? Ukraine has long been known as the breadbasket of Europe, which is why your man Hitler occupied the region... to starve out the 'useless eaters.'
> 
> The oligarchs in Russia are enjoying great (they were pissed when Cypress took 30% from their bank accounts) wealth while the civilian population struggles. Russia is fascist to the core, completely state run... the US is still in a soft-fascist mode and wishes to become more like Russia, but it has to break the current system first.


This is spot on.

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## pjohns

> Putin has completely transformed the Russian economy and it has done nothing but grow and grow and grow since he came to power.
> The Russians and Chinese have strong leadership, gold and money. America and the EU have fools and massive debt.
> 
> Shouldn't take a whole lot of foresight to see who ends up on top.


I suppose one should expect the extolling of all things totalitarian from someone who celebrates Alolf Hitler in his signature line...

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Irascible Crusader (02-20-2014)

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## beatleboy

> Pussy Riot putting a stolen chicken up her in public and going into a Church and trashing it while doing vile things. This group is vile and she wasn't beaten because of being gay. This group is sick.


I didn't say Pussy Riot were gay, I said they spoke out against Putin, in a vile way or not, that doesn't mean they deserve to be flogged, communism is the soul of Putin, if he gets the chance he will be sure to bring back the Soviet Union, this to which he aspires, no great man here, just an egotistical communist bully.

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## michaelr

This is going to be another proxy war if Russia allows that.

Y'all talk about their oil and economy. Well the alternative is the EU, and member states to the EU lose their sovereignty. Despite the media claims, the Ukrainians don't want that, and it ain't them rioting. It is Soros rent-a-riots, led by the state dept.

http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/07/u...about-ukraine/

The above link has a video....it's basically an audio of a US state department personal talking with a UN big shot, it proves the state department is behind this. The link also show the US is pissed about being NSA'd.

The next link is going to paint y'all picture, pun intended. 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...lained-one-map

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## Irascible Crusader

> This is going to be another proxy war if Russia allows that.
> 
> Y'all talk about their oil and economy. Well the alternative is the EU, and member states to the EU lose their sovereignty. Despite the media claims, the Ukrainians don't want that, and it ain't them rioting. It is Soros rent-a-riots, led by the state dept.
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/07/u...about-ukraine/
> 
> The above link has a video....it's basically an audio of a US state department personal talking with a UN big shot, it proves the state department is behind this. The link also show the US is pissed about being NSA'd.
> 
> The next link is going to paint y'all picture, pun intended. 
> ...




Show me where the Ruble is trading.  Is it somewhere in the "other" category with gold, oil, and silver futures?

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## michaelr

> Show me where the Ruble is trading.  Is it somewhere in the "other" category with gold, oil, and silver futures?


Yesterday it was .028 ruble for a dollar. I get it, but you need to understand is the global currency crash that's happening. I'll guarantee after today the ruble is up a bit, China just dumped $48 billion in t-bills.

The pipelines through Ukraine are open again, and the EU's oil and gas shortage is about to become a thing of the past.

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## Irascible Crusader

> Yesterday it was .028 ruble for a dollar. I get it, but you need to understand is the global currency crash that's happening. I'll guarantee after today the ruble is up a bit, China just dumped $48 billion in t-bills.
> 
> The pipelines through Ukraine are open again, and the EU's oil and gas shortage is about to become a thing of the past.


There will never be a global currency crash and anyone who thinks so misunderstands currency on a fundamental level. Currency value is reflected in economic activity and as long as economic activity persists, the currency can never "crash".  Manipulating currencies will give rise to the inevitability for corrections, even corrections that have devastating impacts.  But the complete collapse of currencies prevenient to a widespread dissolution of social order that the kooks keep predicting will never occur.

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## michaelr

> There will never be a global currency crash and anyone who thinks so misunderstands currency on a fundamental level. Currency value is reflected in economic activity and as long as economic activity persists, the currency can never "crash".  Manipulating currencies will give rise to the inevitability for corrections, even corrections that have devastating impacts.  But the complete collapse of currencies prevenient to a widespread dissolution of social order that the kooks keep predicting will never occur.


Oh hell no dude. I've heard all this before. You have some currencies stronger then others, but they are just chasing each other down the toilet. 

Hell a fiat currency has 12~15 years, we are long overdue, the world is. 

I'm kind of busy, but I'll be around all day of course.......I just had surgey last June for an upper spinal cord injury that was very cronic, like 12 years cronic. I am on a tablet, but this is a subject that I care about and understand. I can learn more.....sometimes....hahaha...so I think we need a thread on it.

This Ukraine thing is Egypt, Syria, and Libya all over. On those subjects, I can't learn more unless something new and unusual devolopes.

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## Katzndogz

So President Putin wants to reconstruct the Soviet Union.   If we had breakaway states would you think it awful that a presidunce like obama wanted to reconstruct the USA?    We fought a war, a long and very bloody war to keep OUR union intact.   What's so bad about President Putin wanting the Soviet Union intact?

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Teutorian (02-20-2014)

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## michaelr

> So President Putin wants to reconstruct the Soviet Union.   If we had breakaway states would you think it awful that a presidunce like obama wanted to reconstruct the USA?    We fought a war, a long and very bloody war to keep OUR union intact.   What's so bad about President Putin wanting the Soviet Union intact?


I seriously doubt this is about keeping the USSR in tact. It's more like he doesn't want a NATO base in his back yard.

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## Teutorian

> I seriously doubt this is about keeping the USSR in tact. It's more like he doesn't want a NATO base in his back yard.


Well that's just silly. If Russia were to put missiles in, say, Cuba, I'm sure we wouldn't make a huge stink about it.

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## michaelr

> Well that's just silly. If Russia were to put missiles in, say, Cuba, I'm sure we wouldn't make a huge stink about it.


Exactly. Ukraine's economy was tanked because the west didn't want the previous government to allow oil through those pipelines. This government does. Russia bailed out the Ukraine. The Soros bunch wanted Ukraine absorbed into the EU. Didn't happen. Rent-a-mobs are the result, and regime change for the sake of the EU is the goal. A proxy war is the likely outcome or, Russia just invades. Then it's anyones guess.

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## Teutorian

> Exactly. Ukraine's economy was tanked because the west didn't want the previous government to allow oil through those pipelines. This government does. Russia bailed out the Ukraine. The Soros bunch wanted Ukraine absorbed into the EU. Didn't happen. Rent-a-mobs are the result, and regime change for the sake of the EU is the goal. A proxy war is the likely outcome or, Russia just invades. Then it's anyones guess.


I honestly hope Russia invades. That would be beautiful, and I'd love to see our leadership squirm over it with egg all over their faces.

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## pjohns

> This is going to be another proxy war if Russia allows that.
> 
> Y'all talk about their oil and economy. Well the alternative is the EU, and member states to the EU lose their sovereignty. Despite the media claims, the Ukrainians don't want that, and it ain't them rioting. It is Soros rent-a-riots, led by the state dept.
> 
> http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/07/u...about-ukraine/


From the article itself:




> However Moscow has long suspected Washington of interfering with events in Ukraine. The* Communist Party* says the recording proves they were right.
> Foreign powers, their diplomats, their special services, all wearing different disguises, have been (controlling) the puppet strings of this process (Ukrainian protests) for a long time. And this, now infamous, phone call confirms the suspicions that we have held for a while, said *Communist Party* MP Vyacheslav Tetyokin.  [Bold added]





> The next link is going to paint y'all picture, pun intended. 
> 
> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...lained-one-map


To a large extent, I agree with the sentiments expressed in the following quote from this article:




> BOTH the USA and EU will now fund the rebels as Russia will fund Yanukovych. At the political level,* Ukraine is the pawn on the chessboard*. The propaganda war is East v West. However, those power plays are masking the core issue that began with the Orange Revolution  corruption. *Yanukovych is a dictator who will NEVER leave office*. It is simple as that. *There will be no REAL elections again in Ukraine*. This is starting to spiral down into a confrontation that the entire world cannot ignore.  [Caps, bold in original]


Still, I doubt that either the EU or--especially--the Obama administration will send aid to help the rebels (although I very much wish that they would).

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## michaelr

> I honestly hope Russia invades. That would be beautiful, and I'd love to see our leadership squirm over it with egg all over their faces.


Never tried, but I'm figuring that I'd be allergic to world wars.

I this administration keeps bitting more then they can chew, yet they seem undeterred.

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## michaelr

> From the article itself:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a large extent, I agree with the sentiments expressed in the following quote from this article:
> 
> 
> ...


The you'd have another Syria, and those so called rebels are Al Qaeda.

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## Teutorian

> Never tried, but I'm figuring that I'd be allergic to world wars.
> 
> I this administration keeps bitting more then they can chew, yet they seem undeterred.


It wouldn't erupt in a World War. If I were Putin I'd call that bluff.

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## michaelr

> It wouldn't erupt in a World War. If I was Putin I'd call that bluff.


I don't know man, between this and Syria, ......think about it, he'd be showing weakness and Putin ain't like that. Hell Georgia was almost a nuclear war, days from it.

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## Katzndogz

> I seriously doubt this is about keeping the USSR in tact. It's more like he doesn't want a NATO base in his back yard.


Didn't the US have a little something to say about a Russian base in our backyard?   Does Cuba come to mind?

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## Teutorian

> I don't know man, between this and Syria, ......think about it, he'd be showing weakness and Putin ain't like that. Hell Georgia was almost a nuclear war, days from it.


The American people aren't going to be dragged into a World War against a nation with ICBM's over the Ukraine and Syria.
Putin could roll his tanks into the Ukraine and Obama would give some silly speech and then we would discuss it on "The Five."
That's about it.

----------


## michaelr

> Didn't the US have a little something to say about a Russian base in our backyard?   Does Cuba come to mind?


Yes and yes. I'm on the side that says the US has overreacted themselves. It's to knock this shit off.

----------


## michaelr

> The American people aren't going to be dragged into a World War against a nation with ICBM's over the Ukraine and Syria.
> Putin could roll his tanks into the Ukraine and Obama would give some silly speech and then we would discuss it on "The Five."
> That's about it.


That's a very likely outcome.

----------


## Katzndogz

Didn't obama just pull another Syria and say the fighting had to stop or there would be consequences right afterwards, the Ukranian goverment killed 22 protesters leaving obama looking ridiculous as usual.

The Ukraine is not Russia.  It was part of the Soviet Union at one time, but it is an independent country now.   They had an election, one candidate won.  Just like obama won his election.  The man elected president did things the people objected to.   Rather than sucking it up and being told "elections have consequences, we won, deal with it", these people took to the streets. 

Over what?   What was it that caused this outpouring of citizen angst?  Two competing trade agreements.  One with the EU the other with Russia.  Russia gave the Ukraine 11.5 billion dollars as a bail out to their energy industry.  The EU gave nothing.  The President signed the trade agreement with Russia who had essentially paid up front.   The people, those who wanted the trade agreement with the EU instead protested.   There was an election.   It's a democracy.  The president was as democratically elected as obama was.   If obama wanted an immigration agreement with Mexico and the citizens had an uprising what do you think the US forces would do?

----------


## michaelr

> Didn't obama just pull another Syria and say the fighting had to stop or there would be consequences right afterwards, the Ukranian goverment killed 22 protesters leaving obama looking ridiculous as usual.
> 
> The Ukraine is not Russia.  It was part of the Soviet Union at one time, but it is an independent country now.   They had an election, one candidate won.  Just like obama won his election.  The man elected president did things the people objected to.   Rather than sucking it up and being told "elections have consequences, we won, deal with it", these people took to the streets. 
> 
> Over what?   What was it that caused this outpouring of citizen angst?  Two competing trade agreements.  One with the EU the other with Russia.  Russia gave the Ukraine 11.5 billion dollars as a bail out to their energy industry.  The EU gave nothing.  The President signed the trade agreement with Russia who had essentially paid up front.   The people, those who wanted the trade agreement with the EU instead protested.   There was an election.   It's a democracy.  The president was as democratically elected as obama was.   If obama wanted an immigration agreement with Mexico and the citizens had an uprising what do you think the US forces would do?


This isn't a popular revolt, neither was Syria, Egypt, or Libya, it is US sponsored.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Didn't obama just pull another Syria and say the fighting had to stop or there would be consequences right afterwards, the Ukranian goverment killed 22 protesters leaving obama looking ridiculous as usual.
> 
> The Ukraine is not Russia.  It was part of the Soviet Union at one time, but it is an independent country now.   They had an election, one candidate won.  Just like obama won his election.  The man elected president did things the people objected to.   Rather than sucking it up and being told "elections have consequences, we won, deal with it", these people took to the streets. 
> 
> Over what?   What was it that caused this outpouring of citizen angst?  Two competing trade agreements.  One with the EU the other with Russia.  Russia gave the Ukraine 11.5 billion dollars as a bail out to their energy industry.  The EU gave nothing.  The President signed the trade agreement with Russia who had essentially paid up front.   The people, those who wanted the trade agreement with the EU instead protested.   There was an election.   It's a democracy.  The president was as democratically elected as obama was.   If obama wanted an immigration agreement with Mexico and the citizens had an uprising what do you think the US forces would do?


Was that money given to them, or was it a loan like Putin is now saying?

----------


## Katzndogz

> Was that money given to them, or was it a loan like Putin is now saying?


It doesn't make any difference.   The president of the Ukraine made a political decision, just like obama makes every day.  Just as unpopular, maybe what we need is some outside agitation to bring Americans out in the streets too.

----------


## michaelr

This isn't because Putin's loan. It was always a loan. The rent-a-mob's leaders say the people want in the EU. The people don't and I soon expect them to toss the rent-a-mob out. The government was ousted by the people, and the last 'president' was caught today with a machine gun at the so called riots. He was a puppet for the west.

----------


## Roadmaster

> I didn't say Pussy Riot were gay, I said they spoke out against Putin, in a vile way or not, that doesn't mean they deserve to be flogged, communism is the soul of Putin, if he gets the chance he will be sure to bring back the Soviet Union, this to which he aspires, no great man here, just an egotistical communist bully.


They speak out against him because they are there for gay rights. They had sex in a museum in front of children and then went to the Church again slandering them because they are also against the Church while they were only a few people in there they had no right to say the things they did and think they could do this in the Church. They have stolen and one did put a chicken up herself. They love to do things and put it on the internet. It's all about gay rights.

----------


## Katzndogz

> They speak out against him because they are there for gay rights. They had sex in a museum in front of children and then went to the Church again slandering them because they are also against the Church while they were only a few people in there they had no right to say the things they did and think they could do this in the Church. They have stolen and one did put a chicken up herself. They love to do things and put it on the internet. It's all about gay rights.


Who flogged them?  Do you know?

It was Ukranian militia.  It wasn't even under orders from President Putin.   They were arrested originally because they invaded a church while services were going on and assaulted the people there to worship.  They should have been arrested.  While in prison, they tried to stir up trouble and the pussy riot leader got sent to Siberia, which is where she belongs.

----------


## pjohns

Update:  A portion of Ukraine has now officially declared its independence, entirely severing ties with the Ukrainian central government.
From _International Business Times_:




> Ukraine's western region of Lviv has reportedly declared independence from the central government.
> 
> Hours after protesters seized the prosecutor's office in central Lviv and forced a surrender by interior ministry police, the executive committee of the region council - also called the People's Rada  claimed control over the region. ...
> 
> The region, which is traditionally hostile to the easterner Yanukovich and favours closer ties with the European Union, has a population of 2.5 million.


Here is the link:  Ukraine Facing Civil War: Lviv Declares Independence from Yanukovich Rule

----------

Perianne (02-21-2014)

----------


## Hansel

> The US state department and CIA are behind the violence...
> 
> 
> 
> http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...pposition.aspx
> 
> http://www.storyleak.com/kiev-protes...tion-progress/
> http://www.storyleak.com/ukraine-cia...or-revolution/


IMO the Ukraine matter is an internal problem and we need to keep our noses out of it.  Relations between the US and Russia have been slowly improving for years so why blow it now. I would much rather have the Ruskies as friends than as enemies.  

Russia is simply trying to re-establish herself as  a world power, which is a common thing.  Iran, on a smaller scale, is trying to assert her position in the ME and in the oil rich Gulf area.  It is sorta like my old boss said, "Just stay in your foxhole and keep your powder dry."  In other words, don't go looking for a fight but be prepared in case you have to defend yourself.

I would like to think that our meddling in the ME is going over like a turd in a punch bowl with many countries of the world. Has anyone ever asked what we look like in the eyes of other nations?  Friend or foe, benefactor or predator?

Hopefully this is not just another Islamic extremist struggle and is simply a nationalistic one. I take it that it has been festering for years by now. 
Seems like the government called for a truce, which lasted only a short time, so who is sincere and who is not?  Do those donkies realize that when a country is in turmoil it plays right into the hand of Al Qaeda and other terrorist outfits?

----------


## michaelr

Whilst I agree with Hansel's sentiments, I have to state that you have the option of 'staying out' of what you started. I hear the same thing on Syria all the time. Syria was orchestrated by this administration, and against what the government and their media tells us, we attacked Libya not because Gadhafi was a bad guy, but because this administration needed the weapons and the LIFG for Syria. 

There is a thread about an Admiral who has a theory about Benghazi. On that thread I showed why Libya, it took a bit of doing, but it was worth it.

My point is, I hear we should allow Syria to deal with their problems, but those problems were instigated by Obama and crew. Same here, and the admit it in a round about way. No Obama and crew intervention, no riots, no killings, none of this would exist.

I found this today, it has good links, and again the video that proves beyond any shadow of a doubt that my conclusions are spot on....



> *The leaked private phone conversation between senior US State Department official
> 
> . Needless to say, that constitutes an infringement of that countrys sovereignty and should now be a matter of applying sanctions under international law against the US.*It also undermines the political cause of protesters in Maidan Square. They are now seen, more than ever, as a Trojan Horse for external political interference in Ukraine. This is not a cause of patriotism, as we have been led to believe in the Western media, but rather more like grubby treachery to serve a foreign agenda.


The link.....http://mycatbirdseat.com/2014/02/501...kraine-agenda/

Now we have members in the government saying Obama isn't doing enough..

This is ZaZa Land stuff. Not doing enough now means doing too much. That's because they rely on our ignorance. Well I don't allow ignorance.

----------


## michaelr

> "That's some pretty impressive tradecraft," said Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland of the interception and leak of her now-infamous call to US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoff Pyatt. The call consisted of the two plotting to install a US puppet government in Ukraine after overthrowing the current, democratically elected government.


Victoria Nuland's 'Ukraine-gate' Deceptions...http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...eceptions.aspx

Not much to add.

----------


## Katzndogz

The Ukraine is America's future.   Whenever there is an election of a new president, the losing side demands resignation and takes to the streets in violent protest.  The only time the Ukraine had a measure of peace was under severe Russian domination where the government didn't permit such protests.   This is nothing new.  Perhaps it would be best if the Ukraine did divide.   Split it up like Yugoslavia was split up.  Like the United States SHOULD be split up.

----------


## pjohns

> Perhaps it would be best if the Ukraine did divide.   Split it up like Yugoslavia was split up.  Like the United States SHOULD be split up.


This is probably not a bad idea.

Still, I do not believe that *anyone* deserves to live under the crushing boot of totalitarianism.

----------


## pjohns

> Relations between the US and Russia have been slowly improving for years so why blow it now.


Did you say, "improving"?

Hillary Clinton's "reset" with Russia (from May 2009) was a joke.  A sad, pathetic joke.

America's relations with Russia have been "improving" in the past five years about to the same extent that Hitler's relations with the Jewish people were "improving" in 1943.

Of course, Vladimir Putin now feels free to poke America in the eye whenever he wants, from his harboring iof Edward Snowden to his decision that America may no longer adopt Russian children.  He does not fear Barack Obama--or even respect him, as far as I can see.  After all, our current president is happy to abandon missile defense in Poland and the Czech Republic--or anything else to which the Russian leader might object--in the (entirely fatuous) hope that his actions may be able to mollify the man.

----------


## Katzndogz

> This is probably not a bad idea.
> 
> Still, I do not believe that *anyone* deserves to live under the crushing boot of totalitarianism.


The Ukraine will live under the crushing boot of totalitarianism, just which one would it be.

----------


## Teutorian

I'm embarrassed to say my initial reaction to this story was premature and a knee-jerk to American meddling, which I usually detest.
I'm coming off a three or four month hiatus from obsessing over politics and current events, and spoke prematurely on this matter, having really only heard reports from the mainstream media.

I'm 110% completely behind the protestors. I hope they overthrow the current Ukrainian government. I just hope if they win, they sign a treaty with the EU on their terms.
Either way, I don't believe the EU is going to be with us for very long anyway.

Is EU membership even on the table or is it a trade agreement?

Ideally the Ukrainian resistance overthrows the government but maintains its independence from the European Union.

----------


## Dan40

Rootin Tootin Pootin is kicking obobo's bony ass all over the globe.

Wouldn't be surprised if Poots is stirring the pot in Venezuela too.

Heard there was a billboard of Chavez in Venezuela saying

Do you miss me yet?

----------

pjohns (02-22-2014)

----------


## Network

This is an Arab Spring type fakeass revolution instigated and controlled by western powers.

Don't be a moron.

----------


## Network

First to show me bloodshed in Ukraine wins a pecan pie.

Hope they join the EU?  Lol.  Why?  So that non-elected Eurocrats can suck them into their web of deceit and prime-minister-appointing, vote-rejecting totalitarianism?

If the Ukies wanted to revolt with legitimate cause, I guarantee it is not because they want to join the EU, they just want out of it all.

----------


## Network

Hollywood and nowhere else

The tires, man, the pointless fucking tires. 



http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...e_2799623k.jpg

----------


## Teutorian

> First to show me bloodshed in Ukraine wins a pecan pie.
> 
> Hope they join the EU?  Lol.  Why?  So that non-elected Eurocrats can suck them into their web of deceit and prime-minister-appointing, vote-rejecting totalitarianism?
> 
> If the Ukies wanted to revolt with legitimate cause, I guarantee it is not because they want to join the EU, they just want out of it all.


That's exactly why I want them to maintain their independence. They don't need the EU's gay marriage laws and third worlder importing wrecking their country.
Totalitarianism is preferable to being marginalized in a "democracy" with no accountability.

From what I've been reading, the MSM is wrong on both sides of the argument. While I don't care for your "everything is fake" theory, from what I've gathered so far, the last seven letters of your post are dead on.

It's a Nationalist uprising. God be with them.

----------


## Network

Hoax.


The European Dream of Hitler Union might hurt the feelings of some of the less aware members who think Jews have taken over the anglo-homeland of Europe.

Catholic
Catholic
Catholic

President of the European Council (since 1 December 2009, Herman Van Rompuy)
President of the European Commission (since 22 November 2004, José Manuel Barroso)
President of the European Parliament (since 17 January 2012, Martin Schulz)

----------


## michaelr

> I'm embarrassed to say my initial reaction to this story was premature and a knee-jerk to American meddling, which I usually detest.
> I'm coming off a three or four month hiatus from obsessing over politics and current events, and spoke prematurely on this matter, having really only heard reports from the mainstream media.
> 
> I'm 110% completely behind the protestors. I hope they overthrow the current Ukrainian government. I just hope if they win, they sign a treaty with the EU on their terms.
> Either way, I don't believe the EU is going to be with us for very long anyway.
> 
> Is EU membership even on the table or is it a trade agreement?
> 
> Ideally the Ukrainian resistance overthrows the government but maintains its independence from the European Union.


This isn't a revolution, neither is Syria, Libya, or Egypt.

Damn folk I have tape on this thread that proves beyond any doubt that is is Obama, the state dept, probaly Soros instigated. These are rent-a-mobs. In Syria and Libya, Obama Et Al are using AQ for Christ sake. He supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

You can't be with the people, when the people are imported, or paid by the west.

----------


## michaelr

> That's exactly why I want them to maintain their independence. They don't need the EU's gay marriage laws and third worlder importing wrecking their country.
> Totalitarianism is preferable to being marginalized in a "democracy" with no accountability.
> 
> From what I've been reading, the MSM is wrong on both sides of the argument. While I don't care for your "everything is fake" theory, from what I've gathered so far, the last seven letters of your post are dead on.
> 
> It's a Nationalist uprising. God be with them.


It's anything but that. The administration admits that, when admit the tape.

----------


## Teutorian

> This isn't a revolution, neither is Syria, Libya, or Egypt.
> 
> Damn folk I have tape on this thread that proves beyond any doubt that is is Obama, the state dept, probaly Soros instigated. These are rent-a-mobs. In Syria and Libya, Obama Et Al are using AQ for Christ sake. He supported the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.
> 
> You can't be with the people, when the people are imported, or paid by the west.


You're about 90% wrong. The teeth of the revolt is coming from Ukrainian Nationalist forces (they're real men. American man-children wouldn't understand them.)
While there seems to be disruptive CIA elements in the country causing problems, they're a foot note. This is not a George Soros rent-a-mob.




Right Sector is essentially a Ukrainian Golden Dawn. Not the type of party the Obama administration would be rooting for.
Although, in trying to catch up, I am, admittedly, still trying to make sense of everything.

----------


## Roadmaster

> The teeth of the revolt is coming from Ukrainian Nationalist forces


 That I agree but I don't completely understand.

----------


## Teutorian

> That I agree but I don't completely understand.


It really is a mess trying to get good information, so I can't really fault anyone for being wrong right now, and might be partially wrong about the extent of CIA involvement myself.
The only thing that's becoming clear to me at the moment is that MSM accounts are to be discarded entirely and this looks to be a heavy Nationalist uprising, which of course I will be completely behind.

I have tremendous respect for the Ukrainians. There's a lot of things I like about Putin when compared to everyone else in the world, but I would be behind a Nationalist uprising in the Ukraine against both Putin and the EU.

----------

Roadmaster (02-22-2014)

----------


## michaelr

> You're about 90% wrong. The teeth of the revolt is coming from Ukrainian Nationalist forces (they're real men. American man-children wouldn't understand them.)
> While there seems to be disruptive CIA elements in the country causing problems, they're a foot note. This is not a George Soros rent-a-mob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right Sector is essentially a Ukrainian Golden Dawn. Not the type of party the Obama administration would be rooting for.
> Although, in trying to catch up, I am, admittedly, still trying to make sense of everything.



Really, then ask yourself a simple question, why is Newland and the guy from the UN orchestrating this? Look, I told I was wrong on the ME too. Well plenty of people enjoyed the egg on their faces for breakfast.

All these 'color' revolutions, these Arab Spring, all this Orwellian shit, it's all.....every bit of it, identical. Hell read Operation Ajax, look at Georgia's 'Rose Revolution', look at Syria!!

----------


## michaelr

Everything was fine until Ukraine took Russia's loan, then all of sudden riots broke out. The Ukraine HAS their independence, the alway have, the loan didn't change that. The EU wanted to absorb them. The EU just happens to be more communistic then Russia. 

Good grief people, this is simple stuff.

----------


## Roadmaster

It's not that simple. Russia did commit to a loan then went back on it and now says yes again. The EU want's to take  them over. They are upset the country is going bankrupt which we would too here. I am not getting this from America media and only getting pieces so I could be wrong.

----------


## michaelr

> It's not that simple. Russia did commit to a loan then went back on it and now says yes again. The EU want's to take  them over. They are upset the country is going bankrupt which we would too here. I am not getting this from America media and only getting pieces so I could be wrong.


I got another I can post, it's Newlan again. She is bragging to Cheveron about the 5 billion dollars this effort cost. It's all about getting Ukraine absorbed into the EU. The EU doesn't make loans without absorption.

Here is the video.... http://www.hangthebankers.com/us-spe...ilize-ukraine/

Russia never went back on that loan.

----------


## Roadmaster

> She is bragging to Cheveron about the 5 billion dollars this effort cost.


 Yep I read that too.

----------


## michaelr

> Yep I read that too.


What's that, and the other tape tell you? The other tape is all I should need, hell the government doesn't even deny it, they got mad because they were NSAed.

----------


## Roadmaster

> What's that, and the other tape tell you? The other tape is all I should need, hell the government doesn't even deny it, they got mad because they were NSAed.


 I know but sometimes people are lead to move certain directions thinking they are winning. This could be a deflection of what the government is really up to. It's just hard to trust anything anymore.

----------


## pjohns

> The Ukraine will live under the crushing boot of totalitarianism, just which one would it be.


What does that mean, exactly?

Are you suggesting that the EU (with which Ukraine might align itself, alternatively) is totalitarian?

Do you _really_ believe that?

----------


## pjohns

> It's all about getting Ukraine absorbed into the EU.


Would you prefer that Ukraine should be "absorbed" into a reconstituted Russian empire, along the lines of the former Soviet Union and its satellite states?

----------


## Dan40

> Hollywood and nowhere else
> 
> The tires, man, the pointless fucking tires. 
> 
> 
> 
> http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/...e_2799623k.jpg


Since EVERYTHING is a hoax, doesn't that make Network a hoax too?

When you look in a mirror, is there any reflection?

Is there a mirror?

----------

pjohns (02-22-2014)

----------


## michaelr

> Would you prefer that Ukraine should be "absorbed" into a reconstituted Russian empire, along the lines of the former Soviet Union and its satellite states?


There is no one that said that would happen, except for some people a half a world away on internet forums.

The president stepped down, the rent-a-mobs worked, an elected government caved. NATO, Newland, the UN, and the EU are successful. Gee, this will be Egypt 2.0, they used their military to drive out the US backed Muslim Brotherhood, and AQ.

----------


## michaelr

> Since EVERYTHING is a hoax, doesn't that make Network a hoax too?
> 
> When you look in a mirror, is there any reflection?
> 
> Is there a mirror?


Good Lord, really? The hoax is, this was a rent-a-mob, not that it's an illusion. I really find it odd that this would have to be explained.

----------


## Teutorian

> Good Lord, really? The hoax is, this was a rent-a-mob, not that it's an illusion. I really find it odd that this would have to be explained.


Ultra-Nationalists are not rent-a-mobs. I can promise you this. I'm not disputing that there is an element of that, but this isn't some peon Occupy Wallstreet cult that are getting free lunch on George Soros' dime. One recorded phone call doesn't translate Right Sector into being a mob-for-hire.

At this stage, instead of arguing with each other about what is happening, since I don't think any of us know, we should just be compiling information until it begins to offer more clarity that isn't reliant on speculation. It's entirely possible that this started with a rent-a-mob that kick started other factions into action.

----------


## michaelr

> Ultra-Nationalists are not rent-a-mobs. I can promise you this. I'm not disputing that there is an element of that, but this isn't some peon Occupy Wallstreet cult that are getting free lunch on George Soros' dime. One recorded phone call doesn't translate Right Sector into being a mob-for-hire.


 I get that, the actors in some of the videos aren't nationalists though. We saw the identical thing play in the ME.



> At this stage, instead of arguing with each other about what is happening, since I don't think any of us know, we should just be compiling information until it begins to offer more clarity that isn't reliant on speculation. It's entirely possible that this started with a rent-a-mob that kick started other factions into action.


Yeah, but I have complied damming information.

The Ukrainians have always had strong ties to Russia. Whatever western backed regime wins the election, they better pay back the loan, else Putin invades, then you and others will tell me how wrong he is. What ever they get, the ties to Russia can't be broken, so this is sorta like Libya in that resoect. There is a massive civil war there, the people don't like their western backed AQ government, and you may see a three state solution. Obama of course in panic mode

Everywhere these people do this, the outcome is the same, a wide swath of utter distruction.

----------


## Teutorian

> I get that, the actors in some of the videos aren't nationalists though. We saw the identical thing play in the ME.
> 
> 
> Yeah, but I have complied damming information.
> 
> The Ukrainians have always had strong ties to Russia. Whatever western backed regime wins the election, they better pay back the loan, else Putin invades, then you and others will tell me how wrong he is. What ever they get, the ties to Russia can't be broken, so this is sorta like Libya in that resoect. There is a massive civil war there, the people don't like their western backed AQ government, and you may see a three state solution. Obama of course in panic mode
> 
> Everywhere these people do this, the outcome is the same, a wide swath of utter distruction.


So next time the Tea Party has a rally, it'll be fair to assume they're actors because we saw a similar thing play out in Egypt? One thing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the other.
What information? Is it earlier in this thread? I may have missed it.

----------


## michaelr

> So next time the Tea Party has a rally, it'll be fair to assume they're actors because we saw a similar thing play out in Egypt?
> What information? Is it earlier in this thread. I may have missed it.


Yeah, Ive seen actors portrayed as tea party members, I've seen actors portrayed as OWS members. Oldest trick in the book.

----------


## michaelr

The president says he isn't going to resign, and denounces reports that he was.

Hell, they told us, I think twice, that Assad was dead, and they even showed us a pic. I remember debunking those as something Photoshoped of some movie.

----------


## pjohns

> There is no one that said that would happen, except for some people a half a world away on internet forums.


Do you really believe that it is only people "on [I]nternet forums" who have noted that Vladimir Putin is attempting to reconstitute the former Soviet Union, with Ukaine at its heart (as it is, essentially, the breadbasket of that part of the world)?

Many people much more intelligent than either of us have noted it--including Charles Krauthammer and George Will on FNC.  




> Gee, this will be Egypt 2.0, they used their military to drive out the US backed Muslim Brotherhood, and AQ.


So, you are entirely sanguine about the rise to power of fascist and totalitarian groups, such as the Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Qaeda.

Duly noted...

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Would you prefer that Ukraine should be "absorbed" into a reconstituted Russian empire, along the lines of the former Soviet Union and its satellite states?


It might be the best thing for them if they can't keep it together.  Russia offers stability and people want stability.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was a popular ground swell for repatriation.

----------


## pjohns

> It might be the best thing for them if they can't keep it together.  Russia offers stability and people want stability.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was a popular ground swell for repatriation.


I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who once noted that "[t]hey who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety [read:  "stability"] deserve neither liberty nor safety."

----------


## pjohns

Further update, from the _New York Times_:




> Abandoned by his own guards and reviled across the Ukrainian capital but still determined to recover his shredded authority, President Viktor F. Yanukovych fled Kiev on Saturday to denounce what he called a violent coup, as his official residence, his vast, colonnaded office complex and other once impregnable centers of power fell without a fight to throngs of joyous citizens stunned by their triumph.
> 
> While Mr. Yanukovychs nemesis, former Prime Minister Yulia V. Tymoshenko, was released from a penitentiary hospital, Parliament found the president unable to fulfill his duties and exercised its constitutional powers to set an election for May 25 to select his replacement. But with both Mr. Yanukovych and his Russian patrons speaking of a coup carried out by bandits and hooligans, it was far from clear that the days lightning-quick events would be the last act in a struggle that has not just convulsed Ukraine but expanded into an East-West confrontation reminiscent of the Cold War.


And the link to the entire article:  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/wo...ef=europe&_r=0

----------


## Roadmaster

I don't believe anything the NYT has to say.

----------


## Teutorian

> Further update, from the _New York Times_:
> 
> 
> 
> And the link to the entire article:  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/wo...ef=europe&_r=0


Wow. Big development. 

From the article:



> With  the riot police they battled for days having disappeared, the  protesters claimed to be in charge of security for the city. There was  no sign of looting, either in the city proper or in the presidential  compound.
> A  pugnacious Mr. Yanukovych appeared on television Saturday afternoon,  apparently from the eastern city of Kharkiv, near Ukraine’s eastern  border with Russia, saying he had been forced to leave the capital  because of a “coup,” and that he had not resigned, and had no plans to.  He said indignantly that his car had been fired upon as he drove away.


It really is incredibly how fast a courageous population will get what it wants. 

Considering how disciplined the opposition is reported to be since taking control of the city, it leads me to believe that this is in fact a Nationalist revolution and not a George Soros rent-a-mob of left-wing agitators. Very Golden Dawnesque.

----------


## michaelr

> Do you really believe that it is only people "on [I]nternet forums" who have noted that Vladimir Putin is attempting to reconstitute the former Soviet Union, with Ukaine at its heart (as it is, essentially, the breadbasket of that part of the world)?
> 
> Many people much more intelligent than either of us have noted it--including Charles Krauthammer and George Will on FNC.


 Well it sure as hell isn't a stated policy, and there is absolutely no evidence of it. But hey, I can why the confusion.....



> So, you are entirely sanguine about the rise to power of fascist and totalitarian groups, such as the Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Qaeda.
> 
> Duly noted...


Dude, you're so far out of line here, that it angers me. You listen to me...if you think you know more then me on these subjects, then you would have to agree that putting words in my mouth is insane. As it is, I only see it as an intellectually weak distraction.

It is Obama that backed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood. It is Obama that back AQ in Libya, and Syria. It is Obama that supports the Salafi. I'm against all that, i am against all treason, and I am a nationalistic mother fucker.

I think you owe me an apology.

----------


## michaelr

> Wow. Big development. 
> 
> From the article:
> 
> 
> It really is incredibly how fast a courageous population will get what it wants. 
> 
> Considering how disciplined the opposition is reported to be since taking control of the city, it leads me to believe that this is in fact a Nationalist revolution and not a George Soros rent-a-mob of left-wing agitators. Very Golden Dawnesque.


Five billion sure buys allot, to bad they couldn't spend here.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who once noted that "[t]hey who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety [read:  "stability"] deserve neither liberty nor safety."


Uh huh. We're talking about Ukranians here.  Liberty is not a high value over there. They'd rather have stability.

----------


## Teutorian

> Uh huh. We're talking about Ukranians here.  Liberty is not a high value over there. They'd rather have stability.


Judging by the fact that they've just routed their own leader and threw him out of office by winning a street war with jack-booted riot police, I'd say they value their liberty more than we do here in America where "liberty" is a word we use on internet forums while being trampled all over by our oligarchs.

Liberty means different things to different people, but it starts with the freedom to self determination, which it looks like the Ukrainians are achieving through the courage of their convictions.

Meanwhile, in America....

----------


## RMNIXON

> *Obama has drawn another red line at 1:25.*



Where is a shoe when you really need it?  :Sofa:

----------


## michaelr

> Judging by the fact that they've just routed their own leader and threw him out of office by winning a street war with jack-booted riot police, I'd say they value their liberty more than we do here in America where "liberty" is a word we use on internet forums while being trampled all over by our oligarchs.
> 
> Liberty means different things to different people, but it starts with the freedom to self determination, which it looks like the Ukrainians are achieving through the courage of their convictions.
> 
> Meanwhile, in America....


Your oligarchs just made puppets of the Ukrainians and interweb fools. 5 billion is a lot of money, I'm glad to see you think it well spent. Duely noted!

----------


## Dan40

> Yeah, Ive seen actors portrayed as tea party members, I've seen actors portrayed as OWS members. Oldest trick in the book.


Damn!  Who are these actors?  Maybe I can get some autographs at my next tea party rally.  Since I've been going to tea party rallys since 2009, I hate to think of all the autographs I've missed.

----------


## michaelr

> Damn!  Who are these actors?  Maybe I can get some autographs at my next tea party rally.  Since I've been going to tea party rallys since 2009, I hate to think of all the autographs I've missed.


When did you start going to tea parties, 2007 for me to about '09.

I have an audio tape on this thread that proves this is a state department set up.

----------


## Katzndogz

> Damn!  Who are these actors?  Maybe I can get some autographs at my next tea party rally.  Since I've been going to tea party rallys since 2009, I hate to think of all the autographs I've missed.


It's the ones carrying the sign saying "Racist and Proud".

----------


## RMNIXON

> It might be the best thing for them if they can't keep it together.  Russia offers stability and people want stability.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was a popular ground swell for repatriation.



The Russian's are the most probable winners. They know how to crush dissent and Obama is a clueless coward who won't do anything that will matter to these people. 

I don't call it stability. I call it picking your battles.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> The Russian's are the most probable winners. They know how to crush dissent and Obama is a clueless coward who won't do anything that will matter to these people. 
> 
> I don't call it stability. I call it picking your battles.


I was more thinking about how the Plebian class would see it.

----------


## Dan40

> When did you start going to tea parties, 2007 for me to about '09.
> 
> I have an audio tape on this thread that proves this is a state department set up.


Conspiracy theorists=Ignore.  Bye bye.

And the first tea party rally was in 2009 and I was there.  So save your 2007 bullshit.

----------


## RMNIXON

> I was more thinking about how the Plebian class would see it.



I get it.

There are good people in Iran as well. 

But what can you do? 

I don't want people shot in the head so I can talk principles many miles away.

----------


## michaelr

> Conspiracy theorists=Ignore.  Bye bye.
> 
> And the first tea party rally was in 2009 and I was there.  So save your 2007 bullshit.


You people take an intellectual beating then run off lickitysplit like?

Here is some egg on your face. 2007 Tea Party.

It wasn't till late '08 that the idiot neocons took it over. Like I said, I was there since 2007.


You're not very good at this, are you?

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> You people take an intellectual beating then run off lickitysplit like?
> 
> Here is some egg on your face. 2007 Tea Party.
> 
> It wasn't till late '08 that the idiot neocons took it over. Like I said, I was there since 2007.
> 
> 
> You're not very good at this, are you?


Michael Savage also claims to have started the Tea Party.  Some others, like myself, opine that the first Tea Party was in 1773.

----------


## Dan40

> Michael Savage also claims to have started the Tea Party.  Some others, like myself, opine that the first Tea Party was in 1773.



Today's tea party started in 2009.  Named after, and in honor of, the Boston Tea Party.


A Tea Party like protest by Paulobots has no connection to the tea party.  Just as many of the various "TEA PARTY XXXX" have nothing to do with the tea party.

The actual tea party, started in 2009, was not concerned with Ron Paul's phony Republicanism/Libertarianism, and Republicanism again.  The tea party has 2 aims, lower taxes and smaller govt.

But people on the net just love to lie about things they know nothing about.

----------


## michaelr

> Michael Savage also claims to have started the Tea Party.  Some others, like myself, opine that the first Tea Party was in 1773.


The difference between you and me, I'll never ever put words in your mouth. One of the differences between Savage and me, I'll never claim to have started the Tea Party. If I do, please catch me, and show me where, I'll correct it.

Another difference is, Michael Savvage is Michael Weiner, gay porn novel author.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> The difference between you and me, I'll never ever put words in your mouth. One of the differences between Savage and me, I'll never claim to have started the Tea Party. If I do, please catch me, and show me where, I'll correct it.
> 
> Another difference is, Michael Savvage is Michael Weiner, gay porn novel author.


I put words in your mouth?  You put words in my mouth!  That accusation flies every time somebody feels their position has been misrepresented (as in, they weren't agreed with).  It's a jab with no punch.

----------


## michaelr

> I put words in your mouth?  You put words in my mouth!  That accusation flies every time somebody feels their position has been misrepresented (as in, they weren't agreed with).  It's a jab with no punch.


Do you need me to get your quotes? Yes, you put words in my mouth, and I hate that. It's lasy and stupid.

Show where i put words in your mouth. I'll fix it. I don't do that.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Do you need me to get your quotes? Yes, you put words in my mouth, and I hate that. It's lasy and stupid.
> 
> Show where i put words in your mouth. I'll fix it. I don't do that.


It's clear you didn't understand the futility of this accusation.  It's a moribund argument I'd rather not have.

----------


## michaelr

> It's clear you didn't understand the futility of this accusation.  It's a moribund argument I'd rather not have.


I do understand it, and yes, it great that you maintin the 1773 spirit. I see that in all your posts.

----------

Irascible Crusader (02-22-2014)

----------


## pjohns

> Uh huh. We're talking about Ukranians here.  Liberty is not a high value over there. They'd rather have stability.


Their recent actions, in ousting a tyrant (posing as the president), would not appear to bear out this theory...

----------


## michaelr

> Their recent actions, in ousting a tyrant (posing as the president), would not appear to bear out this theory...


You know he was actually elected, right? Hell until the rent-a-mobs he was fairly popular. You probably wouldn't know that.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Who flogged them?  Do you know?
> 
> It was Ukranian militia.  It wasn't even under orders from President Putin.   They were arrested originally because they invaded a church while services were going on and assaulted the people there to worship.  They should have been arrested.  While in prison, they tried to stir up trouble and the pussy riot leader got sent to Siberia, which is where she belongs.


 Right but the media here is lying. Russia has more gay rights than the US. Their military accepted gays 8 years before ours did. You can be openly gay in Russia and the only thing they will lock you up for is going after children or giving them handouts of sexual implicit stuff. In fact Putin signed this law giving more rights to them. The media here wants you to think its a war on gays because he pushed out many people who call themselves Jews. So they lie and try to make them look like the enemy. Has anyone ever read the new laws, I have. This media we have will be our destruction if we don't recognize and acknowledge the many lies they push.

----------

michaelr (02-22-2014)

----------


## michaelr

> Right but the media here is lying. Russia has more gay rights than the US. Their military accepted gays 8 years before ours did. You can be openly gay in Russia and the only thing they will lock you up for is going after children or giving them handouts of sexual implicit stuff. In fact Putin signed this law giving more rights to them. The media here wants you to think its a war on gays because he pushed out many people who call themselves Jews. So they lie and try to make them look like the enemy. Has anyone ever read the new laws, I have. This media we have will be our destruction if we don't recognize and acknowledge the many lies they push.



No shit. All putin did was make gay propaganda toward children illegal. No wonder this country of ours hates it, their governmet propagates gay love to our children night and day.

----------

Roadmaster (02-22-2014)

----------


## Roadmaster

> No shit. All putin did was make gay propaganda toward children illegal. No wonder this country of ours hates it, their governmet propagates gay love to our children night and day.


 But they want you to think they are targeting gays there. Putin made sure NABLA couldn't go after children like they are trying to do in our schools. Yes this is the only reason our government hates them. People need to wake up and stop listening to the lies of the media because he threw some groups out that supported having sex or brainwashing and targeting children as their agenda.

----------

GreenEyedLady (02-22-2014),michaelr (02-22-2014)

----------


## michaelr

> But they want you to think they are targeting gays there. Putin made sure NABLA couldn't go after children like they are trying to do in our schools. Yes this is the only reason our government hates them. People need to wake up and stop listening to the lies of the media because he threw some groups out that supported having sex or brainwashing and targeting children as their agenda.


Bingo, and as we see this goes way beyond the gay issue. Moving Ukraine from Russia weakens both. The EU is the only benefactor here. Obama is way pro UN/EU.

----------

Roadmaster (02-22-2014)

----------


## Roadmaster

> Moving Ukraine from Russia weakens both.


 That's my thinking too.

----------

michaelr (02-22-2014)

----------


## pjohns

> I don't believe anything the NYT has to say.


For that, I can hardly blame you.

 Here is a bit about it from ABC News:  http://abcnews.go.com/International/...sters-22629900 

And from Fox News:  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/02...-over-capital/

----------


## michaelr

> For that, I can hardly blame you.
> 
>  Here is a bit about it from ABC News:  http://abcnews.go.com/International/...sters-22629900 
> 
> And from Fox News:  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/02...-over-capital/



I'm not gunna read them, but you got any more government sponsored media links you'de like to post?

----------


## pjohns

> Dude, you're so far out of line here, that it angers me. You listen to me...if you think you know more then me on these subjects, then you would have to agree that putting words in my mouth is insane. As it is, I only see it as an intellectually weak distraction.
> 
> It is Obama that backed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood. It is Obama that back AQ in Libya, and Syria. It is Obama that supports the Salafi. I'm against all that, i am against all treason, and I am a nationalistic mother fucker.
> 
> I think you owe me an apology.


Or not.

It is very difficult for me to speak in defense of President Obama; his worldview is light years away from my own.

Nonetheless, it should probably be noted that Syria is a difficult case:  It pits elements of al-Qaeda (who have thoroughly infiltrated the rebels) against a brutal dictator and the Iran/Russia/Hezbollah axis.  Talk about the proverbial devil versus the witch!

As regarding President Obama's cozying up to the Muslim Brotherhood, one probably ought not be shocked.  It is, after all, consistent with his fundamental worldview:  If only the US will make nice to thugs and cutthroats, they will make nice in return.  

As much as I would like to blame President Obama, it does not seem quite fair to assert that he "back[s]" al-Qaeda in Libya.  The killing, in the streets, of Muammar Gaddafi, some 28 months ago, is hardly tantamount to President Obama's supporting al-Qaeda in Libya.

----------


## Teutorian

*'I'll be fighting Jews and Russians till I die': Ukrainian right-wing militants aiming for power*
Attachment 2685



> Kalashnikov-wielding members of Ukraine's radical nationalist  opposition group, Right Sector, have pledged to resort to arms in their  fight against those involved in "lawlessness" and looting, saying they  will shoot to restore "order and discipline."
> _"I warn you, if anyone in this town, this area, engages in   'lawlessness' and looting, Right Sector squads will shoot the   bastards on the spot. Then there will be order and   discipline,"_ one of the radical nationalist opposition group   leaders, Aleksandr Muzychko, said on Friday. 
>    On February 21, when Berkut police officers arrived in the   western Ukrainian town of Rovno from Kiev, Muzychko said that if   he met them on a battlefield, his hand _"would not   tremble."_


Attachment 2686
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/

I emailed a friend from the Ukraine about Right Sector. According to him, Right Sector is a coalition of Nationalist groups (primarily Ukrainian *National Socialists*)

*Verdict:* Not a rent-a-mob.

I would be astonished if the United States was engineering a far-right revolution in the Ukraine. The American media and political-elite despise the Golden Dawn in Greece and this is essentially Golden Dawn Ukraine. 

Every single main stream media article I'm reading is reporting something different, and it seems to differ from country to country. Unless someone is trying to engineer a full blown civil war here, which is entirely possible, I really don't see how the CIA could be behind this, unless they tried to foment civil unrest and then completely lost control of the situation.

----------


## Ghost of Lunchboxxy

Would like to say something, but am prohibited.

Anyone else want to take this?

----------


## Teutorian

*Ukraine oppositions right-wing agenda ignored by Western media*
Attachment 2687
http://rt.com/op-edge/right-wing-ukraine-media-279/

----------


## michaelr

> Or not.
> 
> It is very difficult for me to speak in defense of President Obama; his worldview is light years away from my own.
> 
> Nonetheless, it should probably be noted that Syria is a difficult case:  It pits elements of al-Qaeda (who have thoroughly infiltrated the rebels) against a brutal dictator and the Iran/Russia/Hezbollah axis.  Talk about the proverbial devil versus the witch!
> 
> As regarding President Obama's cozying up to the Muslim Brotherhood, one probably ought not be shocked.  It is, after all, consistent with his fundamental worldview:  If only the US will make nice to thugs and cutthroats, they will make nice in return.  
> 
> As much as I would like to blame President Obama, it does not seem quite fair to assert that he "back[s]" al-Qaeda in Libya.  The killing, in the streets, of Muammar Gaddafi, some 28 months ago, is hardly tantamount to President Obama's supporting al-Qaeda in Libya.


Really dude, do you work for this administration or you do this shit fo free?

Obama has ...... dude, you gotta learn your shit. The following link is from this board. Apologize to those who think that I am trying to redirect the thread, that's not my purpose.


What I'm gunna do is post proof that if not Libya, then no Syria.
http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...l=1#post223039

Now catch up!!!

----------


## GreenEyedLady

Obama was arming the rebels in Libya.

----------

michaelr (02-22-2014)

----------


## Roadmaster

> I'm not gunna read them, but you got any more government sponsored media links you'de like to post?


 What do you make of this Mike

----------


## Roadmaster

> Obama was arming the rebels in Libya.


 Yes he was and it's hard to get the truth from our media on what's going on including fox news.

----------


## michaelr

> What do you make of this Mike


I don't think Israel is doing anything different then any other ally in this situation. Should I?

----------


## GreenEyedLady

Government control. I actually for the first time became aware of it on 9/11. By the time the second plane hit, the media was all broadcasting the same thing at the same time. They were just reading off the government copy. ALL of them.

----------

michaelr (02-22-2014),Roadmaster (02-22-2014)

----------


## Roadmaster

> I don't think Israel is doing anything different then any other ally in this situation. Should I?


 Well I am trying to find out what their media there is saying. I know we are in it too.

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> Government control. I actually for the first time became aware of it on 9/11. By the time the second plane hit, the media was all broadcasting the same thing at the same time. They were just reading off the government copy. ALL of them.


So that proves............







what?

----------


## GreenEyedLady

That our media no longer has or knows the true meaning of journalistic integrity.

----------


## Teutorian

Attachment 2688

----------

Perianne (02-23-2014)

----------


## Irascible Crusader

> That our media no longer has or knows the true meaning of journalistic integrity.


I'm relieved.  I thought you were going to say it proved that 9/11 was staged by Bush so he had an excuse to go to war.

----------


## Teutorian

> *'I'll be fighting Jews and Russians till I die': Ukrainian right-wing militants aiming for power*
> Attachment 2685
> 
> Attachment 2686
> http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/
> 
> I emailed a friend from the Ukraine about Right Sector. According to him, Right Sector is a coalition of Nationalist groups (primarily Ukrainian *National Socialists*)
> 
> *Verdict:* Not a rent-a-mob.
> ...


I feel like I need to revise my post. There's so much muck to wade through.

The original protests seem to have been orchestrated by American and Israeli Zionist conspirators, including Israeli ex-Army on the ground leading protest assaults. That was in the early stages of the uprising and probably continues. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was also Mossad involvement. I'd say that's a certainty.
Now the Nationalist groups are heavily involved and it's become a smorgasbord of opposition.

The areas that have been taken over where the Communist party has been banned are surely controlled by them.
Attachment 2689 Attachment 2690 Attachment 2691

The majority of the Ukrainian economy is reliant on Russia. If the American and Zionist conspirators were successful in drawing the country away from Russia and into the hands of the European Union, it'll be an economic catastrophe that neither America or Europe is going to be able to do anything about. With that in mind, I wonder if this started as Zionism's counter to the Russians essentially blocking an attack of Syria which Israel and its sock puppet Washington want dealt with before Iran.

Russia and Putin are not willing partners in the Communist/Globalist/Zionist New Order of Europe, America, and Israel, and wrecking the Ukraine and delivering it into the hands of these forces would be a severe blow (or at least a prelude to a blow) to Russian influence and domination over central Asia.

If the Nationalist forces (Right Sector, etc) cannot seize the day from American and Israeli provocateurs, it's going to be much better for the Ukrainians not to be lead down this road because it'll probably tear their country to pieces.

----------


## pjohns

> Really dude, do you work for this administration or you do this shit fo free?
> 
> Obama has ...... dude, you gotta learn your shit. The following link is from this board. Apologize to those who think that I am trying to redirect the thread, that's not my purpose.
> 
> 
> What I'm gunna do is post proof that if not Libya, then no Syria.
> http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads...l=1#post223039
> 
> Now catch up!!!


Let us accept, for the purpose of discussion, that "Libya's new government offers weapons to Syrian rebels."

So what?

More to the point:  How does the Libyan people's overthrow of Muamar Gaddafi translate into the Obama administration's (alleged) "back[ing]" of al-Qaeda in Libya?

(For the record, your suggestion that I just might "work for" the Obama administration is ludicrous; in fact, altogether laughable.  I have voted twice *against* the man--not really so much *for* McCain in 2008 and Romney in 2012--so you might just want to tone down your silly rhetoric.)

----------


## Network

_I don't need your civil war or. it feeds the rich and it buries the poor or.
_
Did I mention this revolution is a weak hoax and resembles nothing of a violent revolution?  Did now at least.

It's looking a lot like the Hollywood Spring.

----------


## Dan40

Now the news media, any news media, is a source of hard facts?

That was supposedly true [questionable] at one time, but certainly is not true today.

----------


## pjohns

> Did I mention this revolution is a weak hoax and resembles nothing of a violent revolution?


With regard to this (supposedly) "weak" revolution:  It has managed to depose Viktor Yushchenko (who is now in hiding in eastern Ukraine), and restore the (previously diminished) powers of parliament.  And, of course, it has also appointed a new president; which the European Union has now recognized (to the discomfit of former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev; and, presumably, to the discomfit of Vladimir Putin also).

----------


## michaelr

> With regard to this (supposedly) "weak" revolution:  It has managed to depose Viktor Yushchenko (who is now in hiding in eastern Ukraine), and restore the (previously diminished) powers of parliament.  And, of course, it has also appointed a new president; which the European Union has now recognized (to the discomfit of former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev; and, presumably, to the discomfit of Vladimir Putin also).



I am sure the new dictator well suit the EU just fine. Of course, and this just happened Egypt within thast few hours, the dictator and government will be thrown out, and like Egypt, and the Obama/Sorors backed Muslim Brotherhood, the military will do it, not rent-a-mobs.

----------


## Roadmaster

Russia news says they are flying Russian flags in the west of Ukraine  and hoping Putin backs them. Ukraine new and bloggers say 80% of them back Russia and their late president that got the majority of votes say that Israel and other western people came their to divide their country when they found out they were signing the paper while they supported the agreement with Russia. They say it was all about revenge on Putin for hindering a US bombing campaign against Syria. They are hoping Putin will step in. Yes they also blame the Jews and US for starting this according to the Ukraine people. We have no right to tell them what to do and they said Putin was not trying to control them and is the only one that has acted respectful during this.

----------

michaelr (02-24-2014)

----------


## Roadmaster

Oh yea they are also saying that one side is planting fake nationalist not for Russia to cause trouble. I wonder who that would be.

----------


## michaelr

> Russia news says they are flying Russian flags in the west of Ukraine  and hoping Putin backs them. Ukraine new and bloggers say 80% of them back Russia and their late president that got the majority of votes say that Israel and other western people came their to divide their country when they found out they were signing the paper while they supported the agreement with Russia. They say it was all about revenge on Putin for hindering a US bombing campaign against Syria. They are hoping Putin will step in. Yes they also blame the Jews and US for starting this according to the Ukraine people. We have no right to tell them what to do and they said Putin was not trying to control them and is the only one that has acted respectful during this.


Yup, and Obama is warning Putin against placing the military in Ukraine. There's nothing Obama can do. Like Syria, he's caused enough harm here.

----------


## Roadmaster

> Yup, and Obama is warning Putin against placing the military in Ukraine. There's nothing Obama can do. Like Syria, he's caused enough harm here.


 Well they seem to think our media is lying and using propaganda against them. Now we wouldn't do that would we. Not only that they warned their people to not tip off the US when Putin does place the military and they are saying the US has not right to tell Putin he can't put them on his land.

----------


## michaelr

> Well they seem to think our media is lying and using propaganda against them. Now we wouldn't do that would we. Not only that they warned their people to not tip off the US when Putin does place the military and they are saying the US has not right to tell Putin he can't put them on his land.


Well according to the NDAA of 2013, not only would we, but it is "legal".

Yup, Obama knows he can't do shit. It wont stop him from putting "rebels" in the Ukraine.

----------


## michaelr

Team Obama/Soros really fucked this one up. Russia is still pissed over Georgia and that Soros lead 'rose' revolution. What the fuck were these people thinking. War is going break out, and it comes from the Crimea.




> Crimea is an autonomous parliamentary republic within Ukraine with a population over 2 million whose ethnic makeup is over 70% Russian and Crimean Tartars as opposed to 24% Ukrainian and is the [COLOR=#CC0000 !important]home base of the Russian Black Sea Fleet located in Sevastopol.[/COLOR]
> Putin first became involved in this latest Ukraine crisis this week, this report says, after receiving a call from Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych who called for direct intervention by Moscow due to his nation being under direct attack from Neo-Nazi and right-wing nationalist mobs supported by the EU and US in conflicts that have left, at least, 67 dead.
> Important to note, this report continues, is that the Obama regime has instigated a number of silent coups against democratically elected governments it wishes to destabilize, fragment and then reabsorb into its Western alliance.
> Unfortunately for the people of Ukraine, this report says, the Obama regime and their EU counterparts have aligned themselves with the much feared Right Sector opposition group that consists mostly of young men with right-wing, ultra right-wing, borderline fascists, and the even more feared far-right nationalist Svoboda Party.
> The International Business Times (IBC) in warning about the Svoboda Party said it cannot be called a fringe party as it currently occupies 36 seats in the 450-member Ukrainian parliament, granting it status as the fourth-largest party in the country.




http://www.eutimes.net/2014/02/russi...-obama-regime/

*The battle for Kiev may well be over, but is the battle for Crimea about to begin?
*
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...bout-to-begin/

----------


## Roadmaster

> War is going break out, and it comes from the Crimea.


 They want a war while the ones who started it flee the country and let others die.

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michaelr (02-24-2014)

----------


## michaelr

> They want a war while the ones who started it flee the country and let others die.


I wish I could argue this, but I can't. These fucking people leave death and chaos in their wake. That fucking Obama is a traitor, and his AQ in Syria is committing genocide in Syria against Christians.

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## Roadmaster

> I wish I could argue this, but I can't. These fucking people leave death and chaos in their wake. That fucking Obama is a traitor, and his AQ in Syria is committing genocide in Syria against Christians.


 People keep thinking they can use the race card if you see something wrong and point it out like Obama messing these people up.  I won't side with the groups or person who knowing does these things and has no regret about how many people they kill. If a person does they are just as guilty of the crime. Money doesn't buy me.

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michaelr (02-24-2014)

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## Roadmaster

> genocide in Syria against Christians.


 You don't hear our media caring about them  either.

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## Dan40

The incompetent, and blatantly stupid obammer.

He says to Putin, "Do not make a move in the Ukraine or there will be consequences!"

Then he says,"  I am gutting the U. S. Army!"  "Cutting them back to pre WWII levels."

Putin must have pooped his cossack.













laughing,

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pjohns (02-25-2014)

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## michaelr

> The incompetent, and blatantly stupid obammer.
> 
> He says to Putin, "Do not make a move in the Ukraine or there will be consequences!"
> 
> Then he says,"  I am gutting the U. S. Army!"  "Cutting them back to pre WWII levels."
> 
> Putin must have pooped his cossack.
> 
> 
> ...


Obama has an agenda, and stupidity doesn't fit. Nefarious does.

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## Dan40

> Obama has an agenda, and stupidity doesn't fit. Nefarious does.


Why do you know he has an agenda?

Why do I know he has an agenda?

Because he is stupid.

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## michaelr

> Why do you know he has an agenda?
> 
> Why do I know he has an agenda?
> 
> Because he is stupid.


No. Because it's obvious.

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## Roadmaster

Obamas agenda here is to work with the EU and is getting pressured to by many lobbyist. It's easy for him because he doesn't like Putin but the EU could care less about Ukraine. I don't totally trust Putin either but they have been working together for a long time and Ukraine seems to like them.

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## pjohns

> Yup, and Obama is warning Putin against placing the military in Ukraine. There's nothing Obama can do.


Well, I would not go quite so far as to assert that there is nothing that President Obama *can* do; although I agree that there is probably nothing of substance that he *will* do.  (Merely ranting and pontificating is hardly tantamount to doing anything of substance.)

Although I certainly would not want America to place boots on the ground over there, if Russia were to invade Ukraine (on the pretext that it had been "invited in"), I would very much prefer that America would supply arms, openly and unapologetically, to the Ukrainian rebels; and not just small arms, either, but tanks and warplanes.  Call it a proxy war, if you wish--much like China fought against the US in Korea some 60 years ago.

But this is merely what I would prefer; it is not what I believe is likely to happen.

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## michaelr

> Well, I would not go quite so far as to assert that there is nothing that President Obama *can* do; although I agree that there is probably nothing of substance that he *will* do.  (Merely ranting and pontificating is hardly tantamount to doing anything of substance.)
> 
> Although I certainly would not want America to place boots on the ground over there, if Russia were to invade Ukraine (on the pretext that it had been "invited in"), I would very much prefer that America would supply arms, openly and unapologetically, to the Ukrainian rebels; and not just small arms, either, but tanks and warplanes.  Call it a proxy war, if you wish--much like China fought against the US in Korea some 60 years ago.
> 
> But this is merely what I would prefer; it is not what I believe is likely to happen.



Do you support the Syrian Rebels as well?

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## Network

There is no revolution in Ukraine and if there was, it surely wouldn't be to join the totalitarian EU.

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## pjohns

> Do you support the Syrian Rebels as well?


A couple of years ago, the answer would have been yes.  However, at this point, al-Qaeda has infiltrated the rebels to a very large extent; it has committed genocide against Christians, and even (reportedly) cannabalism--yes, cannabalism!--against opposition soldiers who have been killed.

On the other side is a brutal dictator and the Russia/Iran/Hezbollah axis; and that pretty much speaks for itself.  

In the end, it is a bit like the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s:  One desperately wishes that *both* sides could (somehow) lose.

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## michaelr

> A couple of years ago, the answer would have been yes.  However, at this point, al-Qaeda has infiltrated the rebels to a very large extent; it has committed genocide against Christians, and even (reportedly) cannabalism--yes, cannabalism!--against opposition soldiers who have been killed.
> 
> On the other side is a brutal dictator and the Russia/Iran/Hezbollah axis; and that pretty much speaks for itself.  
> 
> In the end, it is a bit like the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s:  One desperately wishes that *both* sides could (somehow) lose.


No. On the thread about the Admiral and the Benghazi affair, I showed that the LIFG was flown into Syria by NATO. Thr truth is, no Libya no Syria. Those were the exact same 'missions' that Ukraine is.

Obama has supporting AQ for years now. The interim president of Libya and the leader of the FSA we actually recruited from gitmo, they were there for their role in US troop deaths in Iraq. The posts will show you that.

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## Katzndogz

> What does that mean, exactly?
> 
> Are you suggesting that the EU (with which Ukraine might align itself, alternatively) is totalitarian?
> 
> Do you _really_ believe that?


Yes.  The United States today is totalitarian.    Under the EU thumb the people will have to give up their religion,  accept perversion,  sign over their children and accept tens of thousands of African and Muslim immigrants who expect to burden with demands for EU benefits.  

Half of the Ukrainian want it,  the other half don't want to bend to the EU mandates.  Let the country divide as it wants to do.

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## Teutorian

*Nationalists named as heads of National Security Council in Ukraine

Attachment 2766
*http://vestnikkavkaza.net/news/politics/51900.html



> Lawmaker from the Fatherland party Andriy Parubiy and leader of the  far-right Praviy Sektor group Dmitro Yarosh have been appointed as the  new heads of Ukraine's National Security Council. 
> 
> President  of the Kyiv School of Economics Pavlo Sheremeta has been appointed as  the new Minister of Economy, artist Yevgeny Nishchuk as the new Minister  of Culture and protest activist Dmitro Bulatov as the Minister of  Sports.

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## Teutorian

Right Sector treating Communists like they should be

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## pjohns

> Yes.  The United States today is totalitarian.    Under the EU thumb the people will have to give up their religion,  accept perversion,  sign over their children and accept tens of thousands of African and Muslim immigrants who expect to burden with demands for EU benefits.


Well, I will readily concede that President Obama is busily moving the US toward left-wing authoritarianism (if not actual totalitarianism), what with his promiscuous use of Executive Orders to circumvent the clear will of Congress--and especially the Republican-controlled House.  One would certainly hope that this trend may be reversed.  

As for the EU, however, I remain quite uncertain as to why you might imagine that a closer alignment with it might mean that Ukrainians would be forced to "give up their religion, "accept perversion," or "give up their children."   

Or, for that matter, why you might suppose that it would mean "accept[ing] tens of thousands of African and Muslim immigrants," since what we are talking about is mere *alignment* with the EU--_not_ absorption by it.

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## Teutorian

*Ukraine crisis: Yatsenyuk is PM-designate, Kiev Maidan told*http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26359150



> Mr Yatsenyuk - a former speaker of parliament and foreign minister -  has been one of the main opposition leaders during the protests which  first erupted in late November. 
>          "We are to undertake extremely unpopular steps as the  previous government and previous president were so corrupted that the  country is in a desperate financial plight," Mr Yatsenyuk told BBC  Ukrainian.  
>          "We are on the brink of a disaster and this is the government of political suiciders! So welcome to hell," he added.





> US Secretary of State John Kerry said Washington planned to offer  Ukraine the loan guarantees to help stabilise the country's economy.
>          Mr Kerry also warned Russia it would be a "grave mistake" to embark on any military intervention in Ukraine.


Curious what "unpopular steps" means.

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## Teutorian

*Crimea: Armed Men Seize Parliament Building*
Attachment 2768

Armed men have seized the regional government building and parliament in Crimea, according to Russian news agency Interfax.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   It said local Tatar leader Refat  Chubarov had written on Facebook: "I  have been told that the buildings  of parliament and the council of  ministers have been occupied by armed  men in uniforms that do not bear  any recognisable insignia.
                                                                                                                        "They have not yet made  any demands."

http://news.sky.com/story/1218041/cr...ament-building

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## pjohns

As most people here are probably aware, Crimea--where Russia rents a warm-water port on the Black Sea; and which is therefore critical to Russia's navy--is in southern Ukraine.

Well, the Associated Press is now reporting that Russian troops have invaded southern Ukraine.  

Russia has now taken over several airports in that region.

Both Secretary of State John Kerry and Press Secretary Jay Carney have pontificated that the administration will be closely monitoring the situation, to see if any "line" has been "crossed."  

But we all know of President Obama's history as regarding *lines*; so I am guessing that Vladimir Putin is not trembling in his boots right now.

The UN Security Council is currently meeting behind closed doors, in order to try to calculate an appropriate response:  UPDATE 3-U.N. Security Council to hold emergency meeting on Ukraine crisis | Reuters

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## RMNIXON

> *Both Secretary of State John Kerry and Press Secretary Jay Carney have pontificated that the administration will be closely monitoring the situation, to see if any "line" has been "crossed."*


 :Sofa:

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## Dan40

> As most people here are probably aware, Crimea--where Russia rents a warm-water port on the Black Sea; and which is therefore critical to Russia's navy--is in southern Ukraine.
> 
> Well, the Associated Press is now reporting that Russian troops have invaded southern Ukraine. 
> 
> Russia has now taken over several airports in that region.
> 
> Both Secretary of State John Kerry and Press Secretary Jay Carney have pontificated that the administration will be closely monitoring the situation, to see if any "line" has been "crossed." 
> 
> But we all know of President Obama's history as regarding *lines*; so I am guessing that Vladimir Putin is not trembling in his boots right now.
> ...




Would that be a RED kine"

A double yellow line?

A dotted line?

Or a line of bullshit?

barack hussein bin obama told Rootin Tootin Pootin that after reelection, bho could be more flexible.

Now it is obvious that obobo meant he would bend over backwards and hide.

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pjohns (03-01-2014)

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## Charcat

Well, there was a National Security team meeting about it today, but unfortunately Obama didn't bother to attend.  The timing probably interfered with his golfing.  Not to worry, though, Susan Rice told him all about it.    :Geez: 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...ne_783659.html

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pjohns (03-01-2014)

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## Network

There is no war in Ukraine.

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## Network

:Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## Calypso Jones

Russia reports millions are fleeing across the border into the safety and security of Russia Mother Land.

 :Laughing4:

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Dan40 (03-02-2014),pjohns (03-02-2014)

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## the_diplomat2.0

The situation looks like it will remain a military stalemate until Russian troops or Ukrainian troops fire a shot. As for the international response, I expect the United States and its allies to pursue a diplomatic route for as long as possible. Eventually, the United States will have to fulfill its treaty obligations with Ukraine that require it to protect its territorial integrity. I think the way they will do so is through NATO intervention in the form of a no-fly zone, possibly combined with ground peacekeepers.

My personal opinion on the situation in Ukraine is that Russia has without a doubt violated Ukraine's sovereignty. Ideally, I would like to see a negotiated solution between Ukraine and Russia that would allow Crimea to hold a referendum on its political future. The agreement should be two-pronged in allowing Crimea to decide whether or not it wants to remain an autonomous republic of Ukraine, become an independent state, or join Russia. If Crimea chooses the first option, Russia should be obligated to demilitarize the region by removing its military base on the Black Sea, and allow free and fair elections to take fold.

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pjohns (03-02-2014)

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## Dan40

Seems the Ukraine Army is using the French Army Line of Battle.

They are surrendering without firing a shot.

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## the_diplomat2.0

> Seems the Ukraine Army is using the French Army Line of Battle.
> 
> They are surrendering without firing a shot.


Logistically, it is not worth the cost of lives, weapons, or effort for Ukraine to take up arms. Russia has a clear advantage in terms of manpower and weapons technology. This is one of the reasons why the current government is attempting to recruiting volunteers into the Ukrainian army.

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## pjohns

Here is the latest on the crisis in Ukraine, from Reuters:




> Russia's Black Sea Fleet has told Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender by 5 a.m. (0300 GMT) on Tuesday or face a military assault, Interfax news agency quoted a source in the Ukrainian Defence Ministry as saying.
> 
> The ultimatum, Interfax said, was issued by Alexander Vitko, the fleet's commander.
> 
> The ministry did not immediately confirm the report and there was no immediate comment by the Black Sea Fleet, which has a base in Crimea, where Russian forces are in control.
> 
> "If they do not surrender before 5 a.m. tomorrow, a real assault will be started against units and divisions of the armed forces across Crimea," the agency quoted the ministry source as saying.


Here is the link:  Russia gives Ukrainian forces in Crimea ultimatum to surrender - Interfax | Reuters

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## Dan40

> Logistically, it is not worth the cost of lives, weapons, or effort for Ukraine to take up arms. Russia has a clear advantage in terms of manpower and weapons technology. This is one of the reasons why the current government is attempting to recruiting volunteers into the Ukrainian army.



Yep.  The Colonists have no chance against the British Empire.  They might as well surrender.  DFreedom just isn't worth the effort.

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pjohns (03-04-2014)

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