# Stuff and Things > COVID & VACCINES >  CDC lies: vax kills 15 to every 1 it saves

## Big Dummy

-
The truth is far worse than I imagined. I thought the vax would be a slow kill, so they dont look guilty of mass extinction by injection. I was wrong. They dont care because the Drs are intimidated or under control and the media is on board 110%.
-

https://humansarefree.com/2021/10/cd...ne-safety.html

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Big Bird (10-30-2021),dinosaur (10-27-2021),East of the Beast (11-07-2021),JustPassinThru (11-02-2021),Madison (10-30-2021),phoenyx (10-27-2021),Rutabaga (10-27-2021),WarriorRob (10-27-2021)

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## dinosaur

I think it's bad, but maybe not as bad as all this.  The article starts by saying the previous VAERS data is vastly underreported.  Then, they theorize that people have a higher propensity to report in this plandemic.  But then, they apply the underreporting fudge factor of previous years.   :Dontknow: 

Seems to me that we would be better served with just raw data, without the fudge factors.  Instead of 150K deaths, we can say 7K deaths.  Ever seen any drug or vaccine approved in the past with 7K reported deaths and plenty more non lethal adverse effects?  Nope.  Those drugs would be off the market in no time and lawyers would be taking out ads on every cable news outlet.

I am not an anti vaxxer, and I am vaxxed, but even vaxxed, I am concerned about the vaccine issues:

1.  The mRNA vaccines need special handling and refridgeration to maintain safe use.  I have to wonder if the special handling and storage rules are being strickly adhere to.

2.  The vaccines arrive in multiuse vials, and dilution is apparently necessary.  I have to wonder, diluted with what?  Seems like an opportunity for contamination to me.  Also, any time you are diluting, there are multiple chances of error.  Then I read where they are trying to squeeze an extra dose out of each vial.  Again, sounds like poor control.

3.  Vaccines seem to be less effective, or lose effectiveness more rapidly, than they are advertised to be.  If they can't prevent infection or death, then it seems to me that covid deaths after vaccination are failures just like the adverse effect deaths are failures.

4.  I don't hear anything about CDC, NIH, or FDA using the VAERS data.  Why is that?  They poo-poo VAERS data as not accurate or representative.  OK, but an adverse event is an adverse event, and a death is a death.  You can't explain this many reports away simply by saying they are voluntary and inaccurate.  If it is not useful, why have it?  You can't ignore it.

I believe vaccines in general are useful, in combination with lots of prevention measures (real preventions that work).  Part of my routine still involves using the sanitizer hand wipes after every store visit, and while in the stores, I limit close contact and try to watch my hands and make sure I only touch what is necessary.  I take supplements to help make sure my immune system stays strong, and I get plenty of exercise outdoors.

Sooner or later, the truth will come out.  I would think the CDC would be better served by looking at the VAERS data, and make some scientific decisions based on the data, ahead of other smart people.  I am OK with the CDC using some fudge factors if they can explain and justify them.  I'm pretty sure the data will still be not so good regarding this crop of vaccines.

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Rutabaga (10-27-2021)

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## WhoKnows

> -
> The truth is far worse than I imagined. I thought the vax would be a slow kill, so they don’t look guilty of mass extinction by injection. I was wrong. They don’t care because the Drs are intimidated or under control and the media is on board 110%.
> -
> 
> https://humansarefree.com/2021/10/cd...ne-safety.html


Sorry, but this means nothing. 

They are using data about one circumstance (side effects of seven other vaccines) to extrapolate the potential data for another circumstances (COVID vaccine). 

And you can't do that in this case. Not without including data for this other circumstances, which we don't quite have yet.

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Rutabaga (10-27-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

The under-reporting in VAERS was
from a time when almost no one knew how to spell VAERS. Today, that's not true.  Ask yourselves... "did I know of VAERS before 2020?"

And yet today it's referenced by every bitchute article and supplement seller clickbait story on the internet. 

Cheesus people ... use your damn common sense.

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Rutabaga (10-27-2021),Sunsettommy (11-02-2021),Wildrose (10-28-2021)

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## phoenyx

> The under-reporting in VAERS was
> from a time when almost no one knew how to spell VAERS. Today, that's not true.  Ask yourselves... "did I know of VAERS before 2020?"
> 
> And yet today it's referenced by every bitchute article and supplement seller clickbait story on the internet. 
> 
> Cheesus people ... use your damn common sense.


The evidence that adverse events are still vastly under reported is there for those willing to take a look.  Perhaps the best continues to be from a whistleblower who is part of a court case to halt Covid vaccines for certain age groups. I made a thread on this court case, here:
https://thepoliticsforums.com/thread...ower-Testimony

I personally found the sworn whistleblower testimony to be quite compelling.

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Rutabaga (10-27-2021)

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## WarriorRob

it's evil, plain and simple, they shut down Vaccines for far fewer deaths and side effects :Angry20:

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OneDumbBlonde (11-07-2021),phoenyx (10-28-2021),Rutabaga (10-27-2021)

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## Rutabaga

as i have said several times, i had covid in jan. of 2020...fever, headache, sleepy, no taste, shortness of breath..lasted about 2 weeks total, then slowly my breathing came back to normal...last sat. i had the same symptoms as before w/o the shortness of breath/no taste part,,,just came out of it today...maybe that was the variant they were talking about...[this time i was in bed for 2 days]...


from how i see it,, i survived that sucker twice!

and no vaccine!


i just may go for a hat trick!
 :Smiley20:

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Big Bird (10-30-2021),covfefe saved us (10-27-2021),East of the Beast (11-07-2021),FirstGenCanadian (11-01-2021),Kodiak (10-27-2021),Kris P Bacon (11-01-2021),Madison (10-30-2021),msc (11-08-2021),WarriorRob (10-27-2021)

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## crayons

> as i have said several times, i had covid in jan. of 2020...fever, headache, sleepy, no taste, shortness of breath..lasted about 2 weeks total, then slowly my breathing came back to normal...last sat. i had the same symptoms as before w/o the shortness of breath/no taste part,,,just came out of it today...maybe that was the variant they were talking about...[this time i was in bed for 2 days]...
> 
> 
> from how i see it,, i survived that sucker twice!
> 
> and no vaccine!
> 
> 
> i just may go for a hat trick!


I've had light symptoms twice, once a year ago when everyone around me was sick and once again recently from bein around
freshly vaccinated...Both times, light symptoms only lasted around 12 hours...

Taking the Whole Family of Nutrients (good ones) half doses 2 or 3 times a day is key to bouncing back quickly. 

I have this posted on another site >>>
Stuff I keep around that one can research is 

Adam Softgels for men - liquid multi vitamin and more
AllOne for Seniors - multivitamin and mineral powder
Alive complete liquid multi nutrient high potency - Keep Refrigerated
Alive Ultra Shake - for when there's no time to eat and Also >>>
Source of Life Energy Shake with whole food concentrates=Pricey & Good
effer-C packs-small & convenient for on the road boost.
ChlorOxygen - keep Refrigerated
and more...

I've taken the Quercetin capsules after drinking crushed 'star anise'=crushed shell and seed that was ran through an espresso machine...You'll immediately feel great...I've still got 3 - Three oz bags of star anise and glad I have em cuz everyone is out.

Drinking Star Anise tea followed by Quercetin/QBC capsules is like a Natural 'Tamiflu' only Much Better. 

Quercetin with Bromelain Benefits for COVID-19

Quercetin was initially found to provide broad-spectrum protection against SARS coronavirus in the aftermath of the SARS epidemic that broke out across 26 countries in 2003. Now, some doctors are advocating its use against SARS-CoV-2, in combination with Bromelain and vitamin C.

Quercetin helps zinc by acting as a zinc ionophore (PubMed 2014), the same mechanism of action that hydroxychloroquine has via helping zinc pass the cell wall where it might halt viral replication.
Zinc ionophore activity of quercetin and epigallocatechin-gallate: from Hepa 1-6 cells to a liposome model - PubMed
https://www.aestheticsadvisor.com/2021/0...hores.html

This zinc ionophore activity of quercetin facilitates the transport of zinc across the cell membrane. It is known that zinc will slow down the replication of coronavirus through inhibition of enzyme RNA polymerase (PubMed 2010).
Zn(2+) inhibits coronavirus and arterivirus RNA polymerase activity in vitro and zinc ionophores block the replication of these viruses in cell culture - PubMed

Disclamer, This intel is is for informational purposes only, Am only sharing a tea recipe

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Big Bird (10-30-2021),msc (11-08-2021),Rutabaga (10-27-2021)

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## Rutabaga

> I've had light symptoms twice, once a year ago when everyone around me was sick and once again recently from bein around
> freshly vaccinated...Both times, light symptoms only lasted around 12 hours...
> 
> Taking the Whole Family of Nutrients (good ones) half doses 2 or 3 times a day is key to bouncing back quickly. 
> 
> I have this posted on another site >>>
> Stuff I keep around that one can research is 
> 
> Adam Softgels for men - liquid multi vitamin and more
> ...


i took 2 aspirin every 4 hours...thats it...

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Madison (10-30-2021)

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## crayons

> i took 2 aspirin every 4 hours...thats it...


You've got a lot of fight in ya, considerin you were down for 2 weeks!

We've got over 30 employees on the service side of the biz(mostly young)
and they're runnin to the 'doc in a box' all the time.

They wear me out with > the doctor said, the doctor says, the doctor this n' the doctor that.
I ignore em and act like i'm countin beans on paper. They sound/act helpless when it comes 
to their own health.

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Big Bird (10-30-2021),Rutabaga (10-27-2021)

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## Rutabaga

> You've got a lot of fight in ya, considerin you were down for 2 weeks!
> 
> We've got over 30 employees on the service side of the biz(mostly young)
> and they're runnin to the 'doc in a box' all the time.
> 
> They wear me out with > the doctor said, the doctor says, the doctor this n' the doctor that.
> I ignore em and act like i'm countin beans on paper. They sound/act helpless when it comes 
> to their own health.



i dont go to the doctors because i'm not "feeling well"...everybody gets sick at one time or another,,its part of life...unless i make an appt. or wake up in the hospital, i take care of myself...during those 2 weeks, for the first week, i was out of bed twice a day, to let the dogs out and feed them, then back in again at night...feverish sleep is never deep, just "almost" asleep...the last week was better, but still tired, not hungry, fever/headache...

being retired helped as i had no one to bother me.

and i HATE it when people fuss over me when i dont feel well...its annoying and does NOT help.

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FirstGenCanadian (11-01-2021)

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## crayons

> i HATE it when people fuss over me when i dont feel well...its annoying and does NOT help.


I'm the same way brother... It is annoying >>> Especially when they can't take care of themselves and they 'act' like they
care about you.

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Rutabaga (11-07-2021)

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## Wildrose

> The evidence that adverse events are still vastly under reported is there for those willing to take a look.  Perhaps the best continues to be from a whistleblower who is part of a court case to halt Covid vaccines for certain age groups. I made a thread on this court case, here:
> https://thepoliticsforums.com/thread...ower-Testimony
> 
> I personally found the sworn whistleblower testimony to be quite compelling.


Unsupported allegations are not evidence or proof of anything.

The higher the vaccination rates become the fewer people we see with serious/critical disease and a much lowered case mortality rate.

There is simply no arguing to the contrary because the evidence is absolutely overwhelming.

The FLD lawsuit is a bad joke that won't accomplish anything except fattening the wallets of a gaggle of lawyers.

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## phoenyx

> Unsupported allegations are not evidence or proof of anything.


Did you even read the sworn testimony from the whistleblower in question?

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## Wildrose

> Did you even read the sworn testimony from the whistleblower in question?


And nothing claimed by the WB can actually be documented.  That is nothing but unsubstantiated accusations.

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Did you even read the sworn testimony from the whistleblower in question?
> 
> 
> 
> And nothing claimed by the WB can actually be documented.


Are you saying that you did, in fact, read what the whistleblower claimed? I will, for the moment, assume that you did. What evidence do you have that her claims can't be substantiated? As a matter of fact, I read an article that her claims -were- substantiated to some extent later on.

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## Wildrose

> -
> The truth is far worse than I imagined. I thought the vax would be a slow kill, so they dont look guilty of mass extinction by injection. I was wrong. They dont care because the Drs are intimidated or under control and the media is on board 110%.
> -
> 
> https://humansarefree.com/2021/10/cd...ne-safety.html


I swear you people never give up.  There have only been two confirmed deaths due to reactions to the vaccines.

If your cited author was even remotely correct we should have more than a million bodies piled up around the country due to fatal vaccine reactions.

Instead what we're seeing is a dramatic drop in mortalities among the vaccinated as compared to the unvaccinated population.

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## Wildrose

> Are you saying that you did, in fact, read what the whistleblower claimed? I will, for the moment, assume that you did. What evidence do you have that her claims can't be substantiated? As a matter of fact, I read an article that her claims -were- substantiated to some extent later on.


Your author is responsible for providing the supporting evidence and of course none is provided.

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Are you saying that you did, in fact, read what the whistleblower claimed? I will, for the moment, assume that you did. What evidence do you have that her claims can't be substantiated? As a matter of fact, I read an article that her claims -were- substantiated to some extent later on.
> 
> 
> Your author is responsible for providing the supporting evidence and of course none is provided.


This is frustrating, because you -still- haven't said if you actually read the whistleblower's testimony, but I will once again assume that you have. The author of that article didn't yet have the corroborating evidence. That was found later.

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Rutabaga (11-07-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

> Did you even read the sworn testimony from the whistleblower in question?


The "whistle blower" is only swearing that it is her professional estimate that VAERS is under-reporting. She cannot swear that her estimate is true.  And since she is only swearing that it's her professional estimate, there is no chance she can be charged with perjury. Her estimate can be completely wrong and she can be a moron.  She's safe..

*This has been explained to you before*.  Any person with average intelligence would understand that her sworn testimony is NOT a sworn testimony that N people have died. It's a sworn testimony that she has an opinion. 


Maybe    @msc will now see that this difference isn't resolved by polite and kind explanations.  
You have trolled and are continuing to troll the forum now with information that has clearly been shown to be just some random person's opinion... and they swore that it was their opinion.

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Sunsettommy (11-02-2021)

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## phoenyx

> The "whistle blower" is only swearing that it is her professional estimate that VAERS is under-reporting.


Not true. For those who are unfamiliar with the whistleblower's testimony, I'll quote her complete sworn written testimony here:

**
*DECLARATION OF Jane Doe
Pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1746, Jane Doe, herebydeclares:

I am fully competent to make this declaration and I have personal knowledge of the facts stated in this declaration.

This declaration is submitted in support of legal actions to revoke the emergency use authorization for COVID-19 injections and in support of a preliminary injunction to immediately block the emergency use authorization for COVID-19 injections.


I am a computer programmer with subject matter expertise in the healthcare data analytics field, an honor that allows me access to Medicare and Medicaid data maintained by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS). I earned a B.S. degree in Mathematics and have, over the last 25 years, developed over 100 distinct healthcare fraud detection algorithms, both in the public and private sector. It has been my mission to protect federal tax dollars by preventing and detecting healthcare fraud, a process which leads to both recovery of overpayments and law enforcement leads. A large part of what I do is focused on the quality of care for the beneficiary; for example, I identify providers who prescribe an egregious amount of opioids to patients with a history of overdosing. Instead of titrating the patient off of opioids, they prescribe more, oftentimes leading to patient death. When the COVID-19 vaccine clearly became associated with patient
death and harm, I was naturally inclined to investigate the matter.


It is my professional estimate that VAERS (the Vaccine Adverse EventReporting System) database, while extremely useful, is under-reported by a conservative factor of at least 5. On July 9, 2021, there were9,048 deaths reported in VAERS. I verified these numbers by collating all of the data from VAERS myself, not relying on a third party to report them. In tandem, I queried data from CMS medical claims with regard to vaccines and patient deaths, and have assessed that the deaths occurring within 3 days of vaccination are higher than those reported in VAERS by a factor of at least 5. This would indicate the true number of vaccine-related deaths was at least 45,000. Put in perspective, the swine flu vaccine was taken off the market which only resulted in 53 deaths.


I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct.


Executed on July 13, 2021.

/s Jane Doe*
**

Source:
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/3c6...eclaration.pdf

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Sunsettommy (11-02-2021)

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## Call_me_Ishmael

> Not true. For those who are unfamiliar with the whistleblower's testimony, I'll quote her complete sworn written testimony here:
> 
> **
> *DECLARATION OF Jane Doe
> Pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1746, Jane Doe, herebydeclares:
> 
> I am fully competent to make this declaration and I have personal knowledge of the facts stated in this declaration.
> 
> This declaration is submitted in support of legal actions to revoke the emergency use authorization for COVID-19 injections and in support of a preliminary injunction to immediately block the emergency use authorization for COVID-19 injections.
> ...


Only a moron would miss this sentence that I highlighted.

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## phoenyx

> Only [insult removed] would miss this sentence that I highlighted.


Why do people like you focus so much on insulting others? In any case, you seem to have forgotten what you yourself said. I'll bold the relevant part:
"_The "whistle blower" is only swearing that it is her professional estimate that VAERS is under-reporting._"

She obviously didn't -only- swear that it was her professional estimate. She explained -how- she came to that conclusion. As mentioned previously, there is now corroborating evidence to her statement. I believe someone else here actually brought up the article that corroborated her findings. Unfortunately, I don't know who produced this evidence or where the article is at this point, but I thought I'd mention it, just in case someone here does remember.

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## Wildrose

> Why do people like you focus so much on insulting others? In any case, you seem to have forgotten what you yourself said. I'll bold the relevant part:
> "_The "whistle blower" is only swearing that it is her professional estimate that VAERS is under-reporting._"
> 
> She obviously didn't -only- swear that it was her professional estimate. She explained -how- she came to that conclusion. As mentioned previously, there is now corroborating evidence to her statement. I believe someone else here actually brought up the article that corroborated her findings. Unfortunately, I don't know who produced this evidence or where the article is at this point, but I thought I'd mention it, just in case someone here does remember.


Why do people like you continue posting thoroughly discredited BS?




> *It is my professional estimate that VAERS (the Vaccine Adverse EventReporting System) database, while extremely useful, is under-reported by a conservative factor of at least 5.*


Ish was of course completely right.

Your, "friend" fabricated her numbers out of thin air.

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## phoenyx

> Why do people like you continue posting [insults removed]


Trying to get the truth out there. Personally, I think it's best when one refrain from insulting others as it detracts from what I assume most come here to do, which is to learn from others.

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## Wildrose

> Trying to get the truth out there. Personally, I think it's best when one refrain from insulting others as it detracts from what I assume most come here to do, which is to learn from others.


You wouldn't recognize "Truth" if it bit you in the ass.

If there was any truth to what you keep claiming there would be actual concrete evidence to support your claims and to date, you've produced none.

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## phoenyx

> You wouldn't recognize "Truth" if it bit you in the ass.


I'm beginning to wonder if you are even -capable- of stopping with the insults.

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## Wildrose

> I'm beginning to wonder if you are even -capable- of stopping with the insults.


Well I'm sure at this point that you two are both incapable of having a debate or discussion of fact because after hundreds of posts neither of you have come up with even an iota of credible evidence to support your claims.

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## Brat

> Trying to get the truth out there. Personally, I think it's best when one refrain from insulting others as it detracts from what I assume most come here to do, which is to learn from others.


Wow.  You REALLY got the purpose of this forum hugely wrong.    Insults are perfectly acceptable here, even encouraged.   :Lame:

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## phoenyx

> Wow.  You REALLY got the purpose of this forum hugely wrong.    Insults are perfectly acceptable here, even encouraged.


I know they're acceptable with some exceptions, but I'd like to hear Trinnity or a mod say they're encouraged. I've been told by a friend that Trinnity banned someone for saying something that didn't even seem to be that insulting, so at the very least, there seems to be a case of double standards.

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## phoenyx

> Well I'm sure at this point that you two are both incapable of having a debate or discussion of fact because after hundreds of posts neither of you have come up with even an iota of credible evidence to support your claims.


At this point, I'm just happy to see one of your rare posts where you're not calling someone an idiot or saying that their beliefs are BS :-p. Anyway, here's to hoping we can have more of these and actually start discussing more of the evidence on the various threads we participate in.

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## fmw

> -
> The truth is far worse than I imagined. I thought the vax would be a slow kill, so they dont look guilty of mass extinction by injection. I was wrong. They dont care because the Drs are intimidated or under control and the media is on board 110%.
> -
> 
> https://humansarefree.com/2021/10/cd...ne-safety.html


Sorry but this is misinformation and pure nonsense.  One thing about the internet is that, if you dig far enough, you can find something that appeals to your sensibilities.  There is no doubt that government lies about covid and the responses to it.  Ignore government and pay attention to the private sector doctors that actually practice medicine.

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by Big Dummy
> 
> 
> The truth is far worse than I imagined. I thought the vax would be a slow kill, so they don’t look guilty of mass extinction by injection. I was wrong. They don’t care because the Drs are intimidated or under control and the media is on board 110%.
> -
> 
> https://humansarefree.com/2021/10/cd...ne-safety.html
> 
> 
> Sorry but this is misinformation and pure nonsense.


Can you prove it or are you just all talk?

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Big Dummy (10-30-2021)

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## Wildrose

> At this point, I'm just happy to see one of your rare posts where you're not calling someone an idiot or saying that their beliefs are BS :-p. Anyway, here's to hoping we can have more of these and actually start discussing more of the evidence on the various threads we participate in.


Stop posting BS from thoroughly discredited sources and I'll quit pointing it out when you do.

It's pretty simple.

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## fmw

> Can you prove it or are you just all talk?


Of course I can prove it but I don't do research requests.  You are the one that posted the misinformation.  Feel free to prove it if you like but your source is not proof of anything other than the wide range of things one can find on the internet.

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## Wildrose

> Can you prove it or are you just all talk?


The proof is the complete lack of any credible evidence to support the claims.

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> At this point, I'm just happy to see one of your rare posts where you're not calling someone an idiot or saying that their beliefs are BS :-p. Anyway, here's to hoping we can have more of these and actually start discussing more of the evidence on the various threads we participate in.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop posting BS [snip]


I guess your good behaviour couldn't last -.-

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Can you prove it or are you just all talk?
> 
> 
> Of course I can prove it [snip]


I don't believe you, but feel free to actually -attempt- to prove it. Too many people in this forum seem to think that they don't need to prove anything they say and that it's fine to insult others just because they disagree with them. I personally adhere to a higher standard.

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by fmw
> ...


In essence this is the dialogue I've had with Wildrose and fmw here:
fmw: 
"Big Dummy is wrong."

Me: "Can you prove it?"

Wildrose: "You have no evidence to support your claims, that is the proof."


The astute observer will notice that fmw provided no evidence that Big Dummy was wrong, only that he believes that he's wrong. They will also notice that after I asked fmw if he could prove his assertion, Wildrose declared that I was wrong because I have no evidence to support my claims. He seems to not realize that I hadn't even made any claims here. I'd only asked if fmw could prove his -own- assertion.

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## Wildrose

> In essence this is the dialogue I've had with Wildrose and fmw here:
> fmw: 
> "Big Dummy is wrong."
> 
> Me: "Can you prove it?"
> 
> Wildrose: "You have no evidence to support your claims, that is the proof."
> 
> 
> The astute observer will notice that fmw provided no evidence that Big Dummy was wrong, only that he believes that he's wrong. They will also notice that after I asked fmw if he could prove his assertion, Wildrose declared that I was wrong because I have no evidence to support my claims. He seems to not realize that I hadn't even made any claims here. I'd only asked if fmw could prove his -own- assertion.


It is a fact that neither of you can provide any evidence corroborating your claims.

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## phoenyx

> It is a fact that neither of you can provide any evidence corroborating your claims.


Prove it.

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## Wildrose

> Prove it.


I already have.  You have both had hundreds of opportunities to provide corroborating evidence to support your claims.

The closest you've managed to doing that is to show two cases in which getting vaccinated and having aneurisms were coincidental.

Coincidental and corroborating are not synonymous.

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Wildrose
> ...


Sigh -.- Not only have you proven no such thing, you haven't even made a compelling argument.

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## Wildrose

> Sigh -.- Not only have you proven no such thing, you haven't even made a compelling argument.


Of course I have.  You make the claims but after hundreds of opportunities to do so you can't show even one death by aneurism being caused by the vaccine.

You make the claims, it's up to your to provide convincing corroborating evidence to prove your case.

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## Wildrose

> I guess your good behaviour couldn't last -.-


If stating facts is not "good behavior" you need to go back to the kindergarten room where you can get blue ribbons for participation and no grade for failing to prove your case.

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## squidward

> I already have.  You have both had hundreds of opportunities to provide corroborating evidence to support your claims.
> 
> The closest you've managed to doing that is to show two cases in which getting vaccinated and having aneurisms were coincidental.
> 
> Coincidental and corroborating are not synonymous.


For your education:
An autopsy only shows the cause of death, stroke, heart attack, bleed, pulm embolism, etc.
It would be extremely difficult to "prove" that a vax caused a death. Thats why one looks at numbers of events in study groups and begins to draw statistical relationships, for instance, higher rates of myocarditis among previouy healthy vaccinated children than in the general population.

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Brat (10-31-2021),phoenyx (10-31-2021)

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Sigh -.- Not only have you proven no such thing, you haven't even made a compelling argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course I have.


I think the old saying, "never argue with someone who knows they're right" applies here.

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WhoKnows (11-08-2021)

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## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Wildrose
> ...


No, I'm not referring to facts. Facts are great, but are frequently hard to agree on. This is about being respectful to others. Being respectful to others makes it a lot easier to engage in productive discussions.

----------


## phoenyx

> For your education:
> An autopsy only shows the cause of death, stroke, heart attack, bleed, pulm embolism, etc.
> It would be extremely difficult to "prove" that a vax caused a death. Thats why one looks at numbers of events in study groups and begins to draw statistical relationships, for instance, higher rates of myocarditis among previouy healthy vaccinated children than in the general population.


Well said :-)

----------

squidward (10-31-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> For your education:
> An autopsy only shows the cause of death, stroke, heart attack, bleed, pulm embolism, etc.
> It would be extremely difficult to "prove" that a vax caused a death. Thats why one looks at numbers of events in study groups and begins to draw statistical relationships, for instance, higher rates of myocarditis among previouy healthy vaccinated children than in the general population.


In order to do that you first have to establish a causal relationship rather than a coincidental relationship.


Say we have a driver on the highway who runs off the road just beyond a flashy new bill board and crashes his vehicle.

Does the fact there is a new flashy billboard on that part of the road prove a causal relationship?  NO.

In order to establish causation takes investigation.

If you have a substantial number of such crashes in the vicinity of that billboard you have enough evidence to form the hypothesis that the particular billboard may be distracting drivers to the point at which they wreck.

You investigate similar crashes near similar billboards and establish then a pretty strong argument that the bill boards are causing distractions that lead to crashes.

You have however no definitive proof of same unless a substantial number of those drivers survives the accidents and cites that as the cause of their accidents or you set up cameras and/or position investigators who then observe multiple crashes and what the drivers appear to be doing at the time of those crashes and leading up to them.,

If enough accidents of similar types occur regularly close to such billboards across the city, state, or country you then have strong evidence of a causal relationship.

In the case of the VAERS reports each of the claimed cases of serious/severe reactions associated with deaths or serious illness have to then be investigated and a causal link established.

And again, with the open reporting of the VAERS system without an investigation you have no ideal how many of those reports may or may not be actual cases where a death or serious health emergency occurred at all.

----------


## Wildrose

> Well said :-)


Not really, it simply shows a gross level of ignorance as to the VAERS reporting system and scientific process.

For example if you have a large number of cases where patients have developed clots following the vaccination investigating those cases can actually show the mechanism by which the vaccines cause those clots.

----------


## Wildrose

> I think the old saying, "never argue with someone who knows they're right" applies here.


I am right and in hundreds of posts by the two of you neither has been able to show where I'm wrong on this even once.

----------


## Wildrose

> No, I'm not referring to facts. Facts are great, but are frequently hard to agree on. This is about being respectful to others. Being respectful to others makes it a lot easier to engage in productive discussions.


Facts can be shown to be true with corroborating evidence.

You two are incapable of doing so because there is no corroboration for the crap you spew relative to Covid and vaccinations.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by squidward
> ...


He didn't even mention the VAERS reporting system.





> For example if you have a large number of cases where patients have developed clots following the vaccination investigating those cases can actually show the mechanism by which the vaccines cause those clots.


Causes have already been theorized as to how the vaccines are causing blood clots. Here's an article with one theory:
Doctor Finds That His Patients Have Permanent Organ Damage from Blood Clots Caused by COVID-19 Vaccines  Great Mountain Publishing


The mainstream publication nature has another. I don't trust them on this, they're far too complacent when it comes to these vaccines, but there may be some overlap in the theories:
COVID vaccines and blood clots: what researchers know so far

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> I think the old saying, "never argue with someone who knows they're right" applies here.
> 
> 
> 
> I am right


Your form of argumentative style might work fine if you're talking to yourself, but it's a terrible way to argue one's case if you're actually trying to persuade someone else.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> No, I'm not referring to facts. Facts are great, but are frequently hard to agree on. This is about being respectful to others. Being respectful to others makes it a lot easier to engage in productive discussions.
> 
> 
> 
> Facts can be shown to be true with corroborating evidence.


And you've missed the point yet again -.-

----------


## Wildrose

> And you've missed the point yet again -.-


You don't appear to have an actual point.

Either your claims can be substantiated with fact or they cannot.

If the last several hundred posts you've made are any indication you obviously cannot.

----------


## Wildrose

> He didn't even mention the VAERS reporting system.
> 
> 
> 
> Causes have already been theorized as to how the vaccines are causing blood clots. Here's an article with one theory:
> Doctor Finds That His Patients Have Permanent Organ Damage from Blood Clots Caused by COVID-19 Vaccines  Great Mountain Publishing
> 
> 
> The mainstream publication nature has another. I don't trust them on this, they're far too complacent when it comes to these vaccines, but there may be some overlap in the theories:
> COVID vaccines and blood clots: what researchers know so far


Good lord man, VAERS is the reporting system for such adverse events.

The mechanism causing blood clots in a very tiny portion of patients has been identified and discussed widely.  It's caused when the patients own immune system misfires.

Study Uncovers How Some COVID-19 Vaccines Cause Blood Clots

In the very race case that this does happen it's well understood why and how it happens.

There hasn't however been a case where it was shown that there was causal relationship between VITT induced clotting and aneurisms much less death by VITT induced clotting leading to death.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> And you've missed the point yet again -.-
> 
> 
> 
> You don't appear to have an actual point.


My point is that being respectful with others tends to allow for much more productive discussions. Insulting them tends to either end those discussions or bog them down in various ways, from flame wars to the rather rare circumstance where one of the parties tries to educate the other on the harmful effects of insulting someone you're conversing with.

----------


## Wildrose

> My point is that being respectful with others tends to allow for much more productive discussions. Insulting them tends to either end those discussions or bog them down in various ways, from flame wars to the rather rare circumstance where one of the parties tries to educate the other on the harmful effects of insulting someone you're conversing with.


Respect is earned, so far you've done absolutely nothing to earn anything except derision.,

----------


## Neo

> as i have said several times, i had covid in jan. of 2020...fever, headache, sleepy, no taste, shortness of breath..lasted about 2 weeks total, then slowly my breathing came back to normal...last sat. i had the same symptoms as before w/o the shortness of breath/no taste part,,,just came out of it today...maybe that was the variant they were talking about...[this time i was in bed for 2 days]...
> 
> 
> from how i see it,, i survived that sucker twice!
> 
> and no vaccine!
> 
> 
> i just may go for a hat trick!


Lets hope Trinnity has you address for when covid does get you we can have a whip round and have enough to send flowers and a signed card from all of us with the inscription  he had tenacity of purpose

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Causes have already been theorized as to how the vaccines are causing blood clots. Here's an article with one theory:
> 
> Doctor Finds That His Patients Have Permanent Organ Damage from Blood Clots Caused by COVID-19 Vaccines  Great Mountain Publishing
> 
> The mainstream publication nature has another. I don't trust them on this, they're far too complacent when it comes to these vaccines, but there may be some overlap in the theories:
> 
> ...


That article references an older nature article than the one I referenced above. Yours was July 8, 2021, mine was August 24, 2021. In any case, both seem far too dismissive of the dangers, and both are significantly older than the first article I linked to from Great Mountain Publishing. GMP's article was just published 8 days ago.

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## Wildrose

> That article references an older nature article than the one I referenced above. Yours was July 8, 2021, mine was August 24, 2021. In any case, both seem far too dismissive of the dangers, and both are significantly older than the first article I linked to from Great Mountain Publishing. GMP's article was just published 8 days ago.


And nothing in that article actually shows that VITT has caused any aneurisms much less deaths as a result of same.

What is the occurrence rate for confirmed cases of VITT?

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> My point is that being respectful with others tends to allow for much more productive discussions. Insulting them tends to either end those discussions or bog them down in various ways, from flame wars to the rather rare circumstance where one of the parties tries to educate the other on the harmful effects of insulting someone you're conversing with.
> 
> 
> 
> Respect is earned



I agree with you there. One way of earning respect is by being respectful.

----------


## Wildrose

> I agree with you there. One way of earning respect is by being respectful.


Your endless passive aggressive trolling doesn't earn respect, only well earned derision.,

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> That article references an older nature article than the one I referenced above. Yours was July 8, 2021, mine was August 24, 2021. In any case, both seem far too dismissive of the dangers, and both are significantly older than the first article I linked to from Great Mountain Publishing. GMP's article was just published 8 days ago.
> 
> 
> And nothing in that article actually shows that VITT has caused any aneurisms much less deaths as a result of same.


I'm guessing you're referring to one of the nature articles. Personally, I find the GMP article far more interesting. After looking at it a bit more closely, I now see that it's actually a copy of an article from christiansfortruth.com and was originally published on July 14, 2021. Quoting from it:

**
During a recent interview on the Laura Lynn show, Dr. Charles Hoffe, MD — who practices in British Columbia, Canada — explained in very simple terms how the mRNA COVID vaccines create the spike proteins which cause widespread microscopic blood clotting that will eventually kill many people within three years of taking the shots. “The worst is yet to come,” he claims.



Of course, as it is becoming more and more obvious how these mRNA vaccines are ticking time bombs, the mainstream media is running stories blaming the blood clotting problem on the COVID virus itself — not the vaccines.



That said, we have transcribed Dr. Hoffe’s comments here — see the video interview below:


[snip]

_So the only way to find out for sure if this predictable method of clotting is actually happening was to do this blood test called a D-Dimer — which is a test that shows a recent blood clot….And so I’ve been doing that on my patients — finding people who have recently had their COVID shot within the previous 7 days — it needs to be between 4 and 7 days — and do a blood clot test called a D-Dimer. I’m still trying to accumulate more information, but on the ones I have so far, 62% of them have evidence of clotting, which means that these blood clots are not rare — it means the majority of people are getting blood clots that they have no idea that they are even having.


_
_So the most alarming thing about this is that there are some parts of your body — like your heart and your brain, and your spinal cord and your lungs, which cannot regenerate — when those tissues are damaged by blocked vessels, they are permanently damaged. So I now have 6 people in my medical practice who have reduced effect tolerance, which means they get out of breath much more easily than they used to….literally what’s happened to them is they have plugged up thousands of tiny capillaries in their lungs — and the terrifying thing about this is….that once you block off a significant number of blood vessels in your lungs, your heart is now pumping against a much greater resistance to trying and get the blood through your lungs — a condition called pulmonary artery hypertension. A condition of high blood pressure in your lungs because the blood can’t get through because so many of the vessels are blocked. People with pulmonary artery hypertension usually die of right sided heart failure within three years.


So the huge concern about this mechanism of injury is that these shots are causing permanent damage — and the worst is yet to come. Some tissues in your body like intestine and liver and kidneys that can regenerate to quite a good degree — but brain and spinal cord and heart muscle and lungs do not. When they are damaged, it’s permanent — like all these young people who are now getting myocarditis from these shots — they have permanently damaged hearts — it doesn’t matter how mild it is, they will not be able to do what they used to be able to do….but with each successive shot, the damage will add and add and add. It’s going to be cumulative because you are getting progressively more damaged capillaries._
**

Source:
Doctor Warns How COVID mRNA  - Christians for Truth

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Wildrose
> ...


And we're back to the insult grind -.-

----------


## Wildrose

> I'm guessing you're referring to one of the nature articles. Personally, I find the GMP article far more interesting. After looking at it a bit more closely, I now see that it's actually a copy of an article from christiansfortruth.com and was originally published on July 14, 2021. Quoting from it:
> 
> **
> During a recent interview on the Laura Lynn show, Dr. Charles Hoffe, MD — who practices in British Columbia, Canada — explained in very simple terms how the mRNA COVID vaccines create the spike proteins which cause widespread microscopic blood clotting that will eventually kill many people within three years of taking the shots. “The worst is yet to come,” he claims.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, as it is becoming more and more obvious how these mRNA vaccines are ticking time bombs, the mainstream media is running stories blaming the blood clotting problem on the COVID virus itself — not the vaccines.
> 
> ...



And like the rest Hoff cannot provide any evidence to support his theory.

What is the occurrence rate of VITT in people vaccinated for covid?  Cite your source.

----------


## Wildrose

> And we're back to the insult grind -.-


And as has always been the case you get what you deserve.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> I'm guessing you're referring to one of the nature articles. Personally, I find the GMP article far more interesting. After looking at it a bit more closely, I now see that it's actually a copy of an article from christiansfortruth.com and was originally published on July 14, 2021. Quoting from it:
> 
> **During a recent interview on the Laura Lynn show, Dr. Charles Hoffe, MD — who practices in British Columbia, Canada — explained in very simple terms how the mRNA COVID vaccines create the spike proteins which cause widespread microscopic blood clotting that will eventually kill many people within three years of taking the shots. “The worst is yet to come,” he claims.
> 
> Of course, as it is becoming more and more obvious how these mRNA vaccines are ticking time bombs, the mainstream media is running stories blaming the blood clotting problem on the COVID virus itself — not the vaccines.
> 
> ...


By all means, explain why you feel that the above quote didn't provide evidence to support his theory.

----------


## Wildrose

> By all means, explain why you feel that the above quote didn't provide evidence to support his theory.


Because there is no evidence, not a single verifiable fact in his entire rant.

Again this is another doctor who's been chased out of the profession, lost his hospital privileges and if he continues will lose his license for his baseless scare mongering.

This is the usual "quality" of the "sources" you cite.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> And we're back to the insult grind -.-
> 
> 
> And as has always been the case you get what you deserve.


It's a good thing I don't feel the same way or we'd just be having a flame war.

----------


## Wildrose

> It's a good thing I don't feel the same way or we'd just be having a flame war.


Obviously you have nothing else to offer in the way of a substantive case supporting your position.

As a result you've earned nothing but derision and scorn.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Wildrose
> ...


His statements alone are evidence. Now, I will grant the possibility that this evidence may be faulty, but by the same token, you should grant the possibility that this evidence may be true. He's also not the only doctor to bring some of it up. Take the d dimer tests and evidence that the vaccines are causing long term, debilitating effects, for example. An article came out today of another whistleblower regarding this. Quoting from the article:

**
OCTOBER 31, 2021

Emergency Medicine Specialist Dr. Rochagné Kilian blows the whistle on the concerning rise in D-dimer levels that indicate blood clotting in patients after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.

This detailed, well-referenced video explains the phenomenon of micro-clotting, and why this demonstrates the likely development of an autoimmune disorder.

This is another reason NOT to get the mRNA treatments (Covid inoculation). It also shows that those who have, may experience long term debilitating side effects.
**

Source:
Covid-19 Vaccines And D-Dimer Levels 

The original article includes the video from Dr. Kilian.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> It's a good thing I don't feel the same way or we'd just be having a flame war.
> 
> 
> Obviously you have nothing else to offer in the way of a substantive case supporting your position.



In a way, I think you're right. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't get them to drink.

----------


## Wildrose

> His statements alone are evidence. Now, I will grant the possibility that this evidence may be faulty, but by the same token, you should grant the possibility that this evidence may be true. He's also not the only doctor to bring some of it up. Take the d dimer tests and evidence that the vaccines are causing long term, debilitating effects, for example. An article came out today of another whistleblower regarding this. Quoting from the article:
> 
> **
> OCTOBER 31, 2021
> 
> Emergency Medicine Specialist Dr. Rochagné Kilian blows the whistle on the concerning rise in D-dimer levels that indicate blood clotting in patients after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> This detailed, well-referenced video explains the phenomenon of micro-clotting, and why this demonstrates the likely development of an autoimmune disorder.
> 
> ...


Unsubstantiated claims are not, "evidence".  They are simply unsubstantiated claims.

Where has he provided his data and methods and how he arrived at his conclusions?

----------


## Wildrose

> In a way, I think you're right. As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't get them to drink.


It's simply a fact, you have not and cannot provide any actual verifiable facts or evidence to support your claims and neither can your "sources".

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> His statements alone are evidence. Now, I will grant the possibility that this evidence may be faulty, but by the same token, you should grant the possibility that this evidence may be true. He's also not the only doctor to bring some of it up. Take the d dimer tests and evidence that the vaccines are causing long term, debilitating effects, for example. An article came out today of another whistleblower regarding this. Quoting from the article:
> 
> **
> OCTOBER 31, 2021
> 
> Emergency Medicine Specialist Dr. Rochagné Kilian blows the whistle on the concerning rise in D-dimer levels that indicate blood clotting in patients after receiving a COVID-19 vaccine.
> ...


For starters, Dr. Killian is a she, not a he. Anyway, if you'd like to understand how she arrived at her conclusions, I recommend seeing her 9 minute video which is in the article I got her quotes from. Again, the link to said article is here:
Covid-19 Vaccines And D-Dimer Levels

----------


## Wildrose

> For starters, Dr. Killian is a she, not a he. Anyway, if you'd like to understand how she arrived at her conclusions, I recommend seeing her 9 minute video which is in the article I got her quotes from. Again, the link to said article is here:
> Covid-19 Vaccines And D-Dimer Levels


He, she, or it I don't care.  

Where is her evidence of DVT's being caused at an alarming rate by the vaccines?

What is that rate?

----------


## squidward

> In order to do that you first have to establish a causal relationship rather than a coincidental relationship.


I just said that. You do it with statistical analysis of events recorded within study populations.
You wanted proof of individual cases.

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## Wildrose

> I just said that. You do it with statistical analysis of events recorded within study populations.
> You wanted proof of individual cases.


A statistical analysis does not establish causality.

That requires doctors to actually look at each individual case and establish the cause and mechanism leading to that death.

At best a statistical analysis will show an elevated number of deaths among one population or the other but cannot show the cause, only the likelihood of something being the cause.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> A statistical analysis does not establish causality.
> 
> That requires doctors to actually look at each individual case and establish the cause and mechanism leading to that death.
> 
> At best a statistical analysis will show an elevated number of deaths among one population or the other but cannot show the cause, only the likelihood of something being the cause.


Agreed. And there is a part of the analysis that appears to be ignored in this forum.  It's relevant because of the massive number of people who got vaccinated.  

I did a back-of-the-envelope version a couple months ago and provided some details. I'm not gonna look it up but it went like this:

Myocarditis for a particular age group..male 18 year old age group. 


Consider an event that is completely benign. Let's say it's handing a person a balloon.  
Now find the number of 18 year old males who received the vaccine in the past 12 months and give the same number of balloons randomly to the 18 year olds, spread evenly throughout the year. Mark the date the balloon is given.

Now find the number of 18 year old males expected to show signs of myocarditis.  I used data from a 2017 research paper so that COVID was not a factor. Distribute a dated myocarditis "tag" randomly to the 18 year olds throughout the year.

Now some have only a balloon and some have only a tag.  Some have both . Count that number and call it P.

For those who have both, there is 4/52 probability that their tag date is within a 4 week interval. (I actually considered two shots but making it simple here).

So you have (4/52)*P cases of myocarditis that appeared within 4 weeks of receiving a _BALLOON_ - that is, a noncausal relationship- within the 18 year old male demographic. This represents the expected number that would be documented in VAERS even if the vaccination was as completely benign as being handed a balloon.  

At the time I did this calculation, the number I found in my back-of-the-envelope analysis was comparable to the number reported in VAERS. If one wants greater accuracy, the month by month rollout of the vaccine among 18 year olds  should be considered. I saw enough to be convinced that the antivax fear pornographers had no comprehension of statistics.  


So... given the massive number of people vaccinated, the numbers associated with coincidence are not insignificant and must be computed before even a suspicion can be formed about causal relationships between the vax and an adverse event.

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Wildrose (10-31-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Agreed. And there is a part of the analysis that appears to be ignored in this forum.  It's relevant because of the massive number of people who got vaccinated.  
> 
> I did a back-of-the-envelope version a couple months ago and provided some details. I'm not gonna look it up but it went like this:
> 
> Myocarditis for a particular age group..male 18 year old age group. 
> 
> 
> Consider an event that is completely benign. Let's say it's handing a person a balloon.  
> Now find the number of 18 year old males who received the vaccine in the past 12 months and give the same number of balloons randomly to the 18 year olds, spread evenly throughout the year. Mark the date the balloon is given.
> ...


 You are definitely an engineer at heart.

Let's follow the short path.

Myocarditis and endocarditis are also caused by the flu, covid, and other viruses.

To truly establish causality you'd have to remove everyone from your sample set that has ever had a viral respiratory infection.

Heart murmers often go completely undiagnosed in kids until they are well into their thirties and the usual cited cause is childhood respiratory infections.

We also have to take into account that these conditions are almost always mild and resolve themselves with our without treatment in a matter of days or weeks with no permanent damage.

Those that do require treatment again, overwhelmingly respond very quickly and very well to treatment with anti inflammatories.

The risk benefit analysis though still shows that there's no reason at all to vaccinate healthy kids under 25 for covid because as small as the complication rates are there's still a slightly elevated risk of same vs the risk of those groups getting covid.

----------


## FirstGenCanadian

> Let’s hope Trinnity has you address for when covid does get you we can have a whip round and have enough to send flowers and a signed card from all of us… with the inscription “ he had tenacity of purpose”


So, you would rather see a member die, than go for his hat-trick, because he does what is right for his body?

That makes you very mentally ill.  Wishing someone would die, so you can say, "I told you so!"

I think that @Trinnity would be mortified if a member dropped dead of COVID-19, whether that member was "vaccinated" or not.

Get some mental help, Neo.  

Our freedoms doesn't end where your fear begins!

----------

ruthless terrier (11-01-2021),Wildrose (11-01-2021)

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## Wildrose

> Lets hope Trinnity has you address for when covid does get you we can have a whip round and have enough to send flowers and a signed card from all of us with the inscription  he had tenacity of purpose


That's not only a thoroughly disgusting post it shows your own ignorance of the topic.

Immunity developed natrually show's to be as much as 40x greater than that achieved through vaccination.

There is also in many risk groups a higher rate of serious complications/reactions to/from the vaccine when given to those who have already survived the disease.

----------


## Trinnity

:Nono: 




> Lets hope Trinnity has you address for when covid does get you we can have a whip round and have enough to send flowers and a signed card from all of us with the inscription  he had tenacity of purpose

----------


## squidward

> A statistical analysis does not establish causality.
> 
> That requires doctors to actually look at each individual case and establish the cause and mechanism leading to that death.
> 
> At best a statistical analysis will show an elevated number of deaths among one population or the other but cannot show the cause, only the likelihood of something being the cause.


Do you even know how science works?

----------

WhoKnows (11-01-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> Do you even know how science works?


He says he does, but his posts clearly show that he does not. It is that way because he says so. He contradicts himself when he sees it fit his narrative. I see this all the time with people like him all over the internet.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> For starters, Dr. Killian is a she, not a he. Anyway, if you'd like to understand how she arrived at her conclusions, I recommend seeing her 9 minute video which is in the article I got her quotes from. Again, the link to said article is here:
> Covid-19 Vaccines And D-Dimer Levels 
> 
> 
> 
> He, she, or it I don't care.



It's comments like these that make me think it'd be better to spend my time with someone who actually cares about research instead of proclaiming that they're right all the time.

----------

WhoKnows (11-01-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Do you even know how science works?


Quite well according to my 3 scientific degrees and decades of practice.

Anyone can make a VAERS report. Until each of those reports is investigated we have no clue what if any truth there is in them.

Statistics can point you in the right direction for where to look for answers but they alone cannot show causality.

Everyone killed or injured in a car accident was either riding or driving a car when their accident occurred.

Statistical analysis can prove that mathematically.

It is not the riding or driving that caused the accident, injury or death however, it's what led to the accident and how the drivers involved reacted to it along with the physical mechanics of how the crash occurred.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Quite well according to my 3 scientific degrees and decades of practice.
> 
> Anyone can make a VAERS report. Until each of those reports is investigated we have no clue what if any truth there is in them.
> 
> Statistics can point you in the right direction for where to look for answers but they alone cannot show causality.
> 
> Everyone killed or injured in a car accident was either riding or driving a car when their accident occurred.
> 
> Statistical analysis can prove that mathematically.
> ...


Highly educated doesn't equate to highly intelligent. You are the perfect example.

And you're damn right statistics can show you causality. It depends what the Hypothesis of the problem is. For someone who says they know science, you sure are a clueless moron.

----------


## Wildrose

> Highly educated doesn't equate to highly intelligent. You are the perfect example.
> 
> And you're damn right statistics can show you causality. It depends what the Hypothesis of the problem is. For someone who says they know science, you sure are a clueless moron.


And you continue blowing smoke out of your ass proving yet again you have no clue what you are talking about.

If a vaccine is causing death you can actually evaluate the patient and see exactly what mechanisms were involved to cause that death.

It takes more than a geek with a calculator to do so, it takes hare work by those who understand the sciences, biology, chemistry, and physiology to arrive at the cause of those deaths.

Correlation and coincidence do not equal causality.

----------


## WhoKnows

> And you continue blowing smoke out of your ass proving yet again you have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> If a vaccine is causing death you can actually evaluate the patient and see exactly what mechanisms were involved to cause that death.
> 
> It takes more than a geek with a calculator to do so, it takes hare work by those who understand the sciences, biology, chemistry, and physiology to arrive at the cause of those deaths.
> 
> Correlation and coincidence do not equal causality.


LMAO...and you tell me I need to learn to read...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

You didn't even understand my comment. As I said...dumber than a box of rocks and you prove it all the time.

----------

Brat (11-01-2021)

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> Do you even know how science works?


If science was constrained to work the way you think it works, there would be no forensic science performed anymore.  Someone would just look up the stats. 

But for deaths... in the real world outside of your unicorn land.... autopsies on individual cadavers are still performed to establish likely cause of death.

----------


## WhoKnows

> If science was constrained to work the way you think it works, there would be no forensic science performed anymore.  Someone would just look up the stats. 
> 
> But for deaths... in the real world outside of your unicorn land.... autopsies on individual cadavers are still performed to establish cause of death.


Really? Where are the autopsy reports of all those people who supposedly died BECAUSE OF COVID? I'd love to see those!

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> Really? Where are the autopsy reports of all those people who supposedly died BECAUSE OF COVID? I'd love to see those!


You mistakenly have me confused with someone else. 
I have never made a claim about the accuracy of the number of deaths attributed to COVID. Your mistakes are starting to pile up .

----------


## WhoKnows

> You mistakenly have me confused with someone else. 
> I have never made a claim about the accuracy of the number of deaths attributed to COVID. Your mistakes are starting to pile up .


And I never said you did. I am merely asking about all the autopsy which you claim have been done.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> And I never said you did. I am merely asking about all the autopsy which you claim have been done.


Strawman.... that kind a liar would do.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Strawman.... that kind a liar would do.


Again with the liar thing. 

You said every death gets an autopsy. I'm asking for the autopsy reports of all the dead. How is that a Strawman?

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> Again with the liar thing. 
> 
> You said every death gets an autopsy. I'm asking for the autopsy reports of all the dead. How is that a Strawman?


Liar . You are a liar.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Liar . You are a liar.


If you say so. 

Again, what's the Strawman?

----------


## squidward

> If science was constrained to work the way you think it works, there would be no forensic science performed anymore.  Someone would just look up the stats. 
> 
> But for deaths... in the real world outside of your unicorn land.... autopsies on individual cadavers are still performed to establish likely cause of death.


Yes and a PE post vax looks like every other PE on autopsy

----------

WhoKnows (11-01-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Yes and a PE post vax looks like every other PE on autopsy


How so?

Define PE in this context.

----------


## Wildrose

> If you say so. 
> 
> Again, what's the Strawman?


The strawman is your lie.  You claimed he said all bodies are autopsied and he did not.

In most states an autopsy is only done when foul play is likely in the death or in some cases when no clear cause of death can be determined without one.

All reports to VAERS have to be investigated so they can determine if those reports are valid and to determine in the case of the reported deaths if they were actually related to the vaccinations.

A given number of people will be vaccinated every year and a given number of them will die with in hours, weeks, days, or moths following the vaccination but that alone in no way indicates the vaccine was responsible for the death.

Not all of those determinations will require an autopsy, in many if not most cases a clear reading of their history will be enough to make that determination.

----------


## WhoKnows

> If science was constrained to work the way you think it works, there would be no forensic science performed anymore.  Someone would just look up the stats. 
> 
> *But for deaths... in the real world outside of your unicorn land.... autopsies on individual cadavers are still performed to establish likely cause of death.*


Seems like he said that autopsies on individual cadavers are performed after death.

You know. Right there. In the bolded part. 

Didn't he @Wildrose?

So again, where's the Strawman?

----------


## WhoKnows

> How so?
> 
> Define PE in this context.


Wait, what? He has to tell you what a PE is? Mr. I know everything about everything? What context do you need?

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> Seems like he said that autopsies on individual cadavers are performed after death.
> 
> You know. Right there. In the bolded part. 
> 
> Didn't he @Wildrose?
> 
> So again, where's the Strawman?


Listen idiot. The issue was whether statistics can stand alone in assessing the cause of death.

I said no it can't.  Autopsies are still used. That's all I said.  I did not address the extent to which they are used.  I simply said statistics alone is insufficient. You need to learn to read.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Listen idiot. The issue was whether statistics can stand alone in assessing the cause of death.
> 
> I said no it can't.  Autopsies are still used. That's all I said.  I did not address the extent to which they are used.  I simply said statistics alone is insufficient. You need to learn to read.


And you need to be more precise with what you write. You wrote what you wrote without context in that post. 

You did actually write those words did you not?

So again, how is that a Strawman?

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> And you need to be more precise with what you write. You wrote what you wrote without context in that post. 
> 
> You did actually write those words did you not?
> 
> So again, how is that a Strawman?


The context was this. 




> I just said that. You do it with statistical analysis of events recorded within study populations.
> You wanted proof of individual cases.


You would actually have to be awake though to know that.

----------


## WhoKnows

> The context was this. 
> 
> 
> 
> You would actually have to be awake though to know that.


LOL...holy shit, man...you can't be a real person with a real brain. No one is this stupid. And I've met a lot of stupid in my day. Wow.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> LOL...holy shit, man...you can't be a real person with a real brain. No one is this stupid. *And I've met a lot of stupid in my day*. Wow.


Law of attraction, no doubt.

----------


## Wildrose

> Wait, what? He has to tell you what a PE is? Mr. I know everything about everything? What context do you need?


Crawl back in your hole, you weren't invited to this conversation.

----------


## msc

> Agreed. And there is a part of the analysis that appears to be ignored in this forum.  It's relevant because of the massive number of people who got vaccinated.  
> 
> I did a back-of-the-envelope version a couple months ago and provided some details. I'm not gonna look it up but it went like this:
> 
> Myocarditis for a particular age group..male 18 year old age group. 
> 
> 
> Consider an event that is completely benign. Let's say it's handing a person a balloon.  
> Now find the number of 18 year old males who received the vaccine in the past 12 months and give the same number of balloons randomly to the 18 year olds, spread evenly throughout the year. Mark the date the balloon is given.
> ...


I'm all about analogies but I'm not understanding this one.   I don't believe that the scientists making and studying the vaccine have agreed or acknowledged that balloons can scientifically have an effect with the covid vaccines.  It is my understanding that myocarditis is scientifically documented to be a realistic and a likely side effect for some.  So the balloon comparison seems to be a straw man argument, because myocarditis has a basis as relation to the vaccine through scientific evidence, where balloons do not.  

So here's where I'm coming from. When reading about a study out of Israel, it was said that they have seen more cases of Myocarditis than expected.  This leads me to believe that the vaccine developers and administrators expect myocarditis to be a side effect of the vaccine, yet the unexpected part is only that it is more cases than anticipated.  Question: It is my understanding that the authorities approving the vaccine have acknowledged that myocarditis IS a possible side effect.  Am I incorrect?   

I'm trying to figure this stuff out, just in order to make the best educated decision for myself.  Not to convince anyone of anything.  Sometimes I hear something and it doesn't make sense to me, then I later on I hear a tid bit of info somewhere else and it clarifies what previously did not make sense.  Note I didn't say confirms what I read.  Some times it does confirm, but other times it simply added another piece of info which can also make me understand that the original opinion was faulty. 

I actually don't get what is being argued on this thread.  Is someone here claiming that they have the answers?  I didn't see that, and I am looking for answers.  Trying to put bits and pieces together from multitudes of information.

----------

phoenyx (11-02-2021)

----------


## phoenyx

> I'm all about analogies but I'm not understanding this one.   I don't believe that the scientists making and studying the vaccine have agreed or acknowledged that balloons can scientifically have an effect with the covid vaccines.  It is my understanding that myocarditis is scientifically documented to be a realistic and a likely side effect for some.  So the balloon comparison seems to be a straw man argument, because myocarditis has a basis as relation to the vaccine through scientific evidence, where balloons do not.


Well said. Along those lines, I found an article with a study from the CDC itself that ran a comparison to the amount expected observed cases of myopericarditis and myocarditis with the amount of actual observed cases. Even by the CDC's standards, younger people are getting -way- more observed cases than expected. Here's the chart:

Screen Shot 2021-11-02 at 6.41.47 AM.png

Source:
https://tobyrogers.substack.com/p/le...ion-part-1-fda

----------

msc (11-03-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Seems like he said that autopsies on individual cadavers are performed after death.
> 
> You know. Right there. In the bolded part. 
> 
> Didn't he @Wildrose?
> 
> So again, where's the Strawman?


Yes he did.  He did not say all bodies are autopsied did he?

Would you prefer the autopsies were done on the living?

----------


## WhoKnows

> Crawl back in your hole, you weren't invited to this conversation.


This is a public forum. If you prefer to have a private conversation with someone, kindly use the PM function available to you. 

Otherwise, if you have a problem with my content, you certainly can put me on your ignore/block list, or report the content you find so offensive. 

Thank you.

----------

phoenyx (11-02-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Well said. Along those lines, I found an article with a study from the CDC itself that ran a comparison to the amount expected observed cases of myopericarditis and myocarditis with the amount of actual observed cases. Even by the CDC's standards, younger people are getting -way- more observed cases than expected. Here's the chart:
> 
> Screen Shot 2021-11-02 at 6.41.47 AM.png
> 
> Source:
> https://tobyrogers.substack.com/p/le...ion-part-1-fda


Which in almost every case causes no permanent harm to the patient and again, virtually all of those cases resolve themselves without treatment and the few that need treatment respond very well to anti inflammatories.

How many confirmed deaths are they finding resulting from those patients in which the myo/endo carditis can be shown to have been caused by the vaccine?

----------


## WhoKnows

> Yes he did.  He did not say all bodies are autopsied did he?
> 
> Would you prefer the autopsies were done on the living?


Still waiting for someone to explain why my comment was a Strawman argument...

----------


## Wildrose

> This is a public forum. If you prefer to have a private conversation with someone, kindly use the PM function available to you. 
> 
> Otherwise, if you have a problem with my content, you certainly can put me on your ignore/block list, or report the content you find so offensive. 
> 
> Thank you.


Ahh again showing you aren't even capable of coming up with your own material.  Intellectual theft is the hallmark of intellectual bankruptcy.

----------


## Wildrose

> Still waiting for someone to explain why my comment was a Strawman argument...


I just did, he never said all bodies were autopsied did he?

----------


## WhoKnows

> Ahh again showing you aren't even capable of coming up with your own material.  Intellectual theft is the hallmark of intellectual bankruptcy.


Dude, you are seriously mentally deficient. You tell me I wasn't invited to a conversation in a public forum. I don't NEED an invitation, you dimwit. How do you get through life being this idiotic. It's staggering how you can even tie your shoes.

----------


## WhoKnows

> I just did, he never said all bodies were autopsied did he?


As a matter of fact he did. And I bolded it for you. But you won't accept it because you don't ever think you're wrong about anything. It wasn't even your statement, so how about you let the other guy speak for himself, eh?

----------


## Wildrose

> As a matter of fact he did. And I bolded it for you. But you won't accept it because you don't ever think you're wrong about anything. It wasn't even your statement, so how about you let the other guy speak for himself, eh?


No he didn't, you're just lying again.

You could not quote something that was never said unless you're also quoting him  and then changing what he said as you've started doing with my posts.

----------


## WhoKnows

> No he didn't, you're just lying again.
> 
> You could not quote something that was never said unless you're also quoting him  and then changing what he said as you've started doing with my posts.


LOL...the one time I did that to your post, I quoted you, BOLDED what I changed and replied "FIFY". You do know what that means, don't you?

----------


## Wildrose

> Dude, you are seriously mentally deficient. You tell me I wasn't invited to a conversation in a public forum. I don't NEED an invitation, you dimwit. How do you get through life being this idiotic. It's staggering how you can even tie your shoes.


Yes, I'm so mentally deficient I have in two days shown who and what you really are to everyone reading our posts.

What does that say about your own self professed mental superiority?

I don't mind a good debate or well meant ribbing but you do not want to make an enemy of me because you are miles, years, and at lest 50 IQ points from being my intellectual or personal equal as you have so deftly shown now.

You best retreat back to the kiddie pool now to save further humiliation.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Yes, I'm so mentally deficient I have in two days shown who and what you really are to everyone reading our posts.
> 
> What does that say about your own self professed mental superiority?
> 
> I don't mind a good debate or well meant ribbing but you do not want to make an enemy of me because you are miles, years, and at lest 50 IQ points from being my intellectual or personal equal as you have so deftly shown now.
> 
> You best retreat back to the kiddie pool now to save further humiliation.


You keep threatening me. What are you going to do to me if we are enemies? Continue to whine about it? 

I don't mind this interaction. You are the one that keeps going off the deep end and threatening me.

Do you know what "FIFY" means or not?

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Well said. Along those lines, I found an article with a study from the CDC itself that ran a comparison to the amount expected observed cases of myopericarditis and myocarditis with the amount of actual observed cases. Even by the CDC's standards, younger people are getting -way- more observed cases than expected. Here's the chart:
> 
> Attachment 63290
> 
> Source:
> https://tobyrogers.substack.com/p/le...ion-part-1-fda
> ...


According to who? 

Anyway, I just found some more interesting info in regards to Pfizer's Covid vaccine:

**
The FDA/Pfizer play fast and loose with their estimates of myocarditis. First, they estimate “excess” (read: caused by the shot) myocarditis using data from the private “Optum health claim database” instead of the public Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) system (see page 32).

So it’s impossible for the public to verify their claims. Then, when it comes to estimating how many children with vaccine-induced myocarditis will be hospitalized and admitted to the ICU they use the Vaccine Safety Datalink (see page 33). Why switch to a different database for those estimates? Finally, there is no explanation for how they calculated “excess” myocarditis deaths, so they just put 0. Red flag, red flag, red flag.

The FDA estimates that there will be 106 extra myocarditis cases per 1 million double-jabbed children 5-11. There are 28,384,878 children ages 5 to 11 in the U.S. The Biden administration wants to inject Pfizer mRNA shots into all of them and has already purchased enough doses to do just that (even though only 1/3rd of parents want to jab their kids with this shot).

So (if the Biden administration has its way) 106 excess myocarditis cases per 1 million x 28.38 million people would be 3,009 excess myocarditis cases post-vaccination if the Pfizer vaccine is approved.

And over the course of several years, many of those children will die. Dr. Anthony Hinton (“Consultant Surgeon with 30 years experience in the NHS”) points out that myocarditis has a 20% fatality rate after two years and a 50% fatality rate after five years.
**
Source:
10 Red Flags in FDA’s Risk-Benefit Analysis of Pfizer’s Plan to Inject Young American Children With COVID ‘Vaccine’ | Children's Health Defense

----------


## Wildrose

> You keep threatening me. What are you going to do to me if we are enemies? Continue to whine about it? 
> 
> I don't mind this interaction. You are the one that keeps going off the deep end and threatening me.
> 
> Do you know what "FIFY" means or not?


You really would not like to find out.,

----------


## Wildrose

> According to who? 
> 
> Anyway, I just found some more interesting info in regards to Pfizer's Covid vaccine:
> 
> **
> The FDA/Pfizer play fast and loose with their estimates of myocarditis. First, they estimate “excess” (read: caused by the shot) myocarditis using data from the private “Optum health claim database” instead of the public Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) system (see page 32).
> 
> So it’s impossible for the public to verify their claims. Then, when it comes to estimating how many children with vaccine-induced myocarditis will be hospitalized and admitted to the ICU they use the Vaccine Safety Datalink (see page 33). Why switch to a different database for those estimates? Finally, there is no explanation for how they calculated “excess” myocarditis deaths, so they just put 0. Red flag, red flag, red flag.
> 
> ...


According to the actual authoritative sources.

Again we have an author claiming to have access to records they could not possible have legal access to so again you have a serious credibility problem with your source.

All VAERs reports as we've repeatedly point out to you must be thoroughly investigated before they can even be shown to have occurred and when these reports prove to be accurate more investigation is required to see if there is any causal link between vaccination and whatever reaction or side effect is being claimed.

The mortality rate for myocarditis varies dramatically with what caused it, the overall health, and age of the patient.

Again I ask, how many deaths have been confirmed due to vaccine caused myocarditis (covid vaccine related) in the US?

All the data shows most of these cases are very mild and self resolve in days or weeks while the more moderate cases may require treatment with steroids to which in almost every case they respond well.

----------


## Wildrose

> According to the actual authoritative sources.
> 
> Again we have an author claiming to have access to records they could not possible have legal access to so again you have a serious credibility problem with your source.
> 
> All VAERs reports as we've repeatedly point out to you must be thoroughly investigated before they can even be shown to have occurred and when these reports prove to be accurate more investigation is required to see if there is any causal link between vaccination and whatever reaction or side effect is being claimed.
> 
> The mortality rate for myocarditis varies dramatically with what caused it, the overall health, and age of the patient.
> 
> Again I ask, how many deaths have been confirmed due to vaccine caused myocarditis (covid vaccine related) in the US?
> ...


Now let's look at myocarditis caused by Covid infection in Children.

https://www.aappublications.org/news...hildren-083121

In which group vaccinated or infected is the risk of mortality higher?

----------


## phoenyx

> You keep threatening me. What are you going to do to me if we are enemies? Continue to whine about it? 
> 
> I don't mind this interaction. You are the one that keeps going off the deep end and threatening me.
> 
> Do you know what "FIFY" means or not?


I didn't, so I looked it up online. Urban Dictionary says it means "Fixed It For Ya":
Urban Dictionary: FIFY

----------

WhoKnows (11-02-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> You really would not like to find out.,


LMAO...bring it on.

----------


## WhoKnows

> I didn't, so I looked it up online. Urban Dictionary says it means "Fixed It For Ya":
> Urban Dictionary: FIFY


Yeah, he got his panties in a wad because I changed one of his quotes, bolded the part I changed, then replied "FIFY". 

This is a common Internet Forum tactic when trying to make a joke. He didn't get it, so he got mad.

----------


## phoenyx

> Yeah, he got his panties in a wad because I changed one of his quotes, bolded the part I changed, then replied "FIFY". 
> 
> This is a common Internet Forum tactic when trying to make a joke. He didn't get it, so he got mad.


Ah I see :-p.

----------

WhoKnows (11-02-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> According to who? 
> 
> Anyway, I just found some more interesting info in regards to Pfizer's Covid vaccine:
> 
> **
> The FDA/Pfizer play fast and loose with their estimates of myocarditis. First, they estimate excess (read: caused by the shot) myocarditis using data from the private Optum health claim database instead of the public Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) system (see page 32).
> 
> So its impossible for the public to verify their claims. Then, when it comes to estimating how many children with vaccine-induced myocarditis will be hospitalized and admitted to the ICU they use the Vaccine Safety Datalink (see page 33). Why switch to a different database for those estimates? Finally, there is no explanation for how they calculated excess myocarditis deaths, so they just put 0. Red flag, red flag, red flag.
> 
> ...


According to the definitive sources.

How many cases of vaccine induced myocarditis and pericarditis caused by the covid vaccinations have resulted in deaths or anything other than positive outcomes?

----------


## Canadianeye

Chill out peeps. Both sides. Some of you are hitting the threshold for snark limits...and I usually have a pretty high snark threshold limit.

Don't alter or adjust someones post. They ain't your words, so leave em alone.

CE

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> Yeah, he got his panties in a wad because I changed one of his quotes, bolded the part I changed, then replied "FIFY". 
> 
> This is a common Internet Forum tactic when trying to make a joke. He didn't get it, so he got mad.


You changed the content of a quote?   :Wtf20:  :Poopfan:

----------


## WhoKnows

> You changed the content of a quote?


While bolding it, and making sure I said "FIFY". Have people here never heard of that? That's a common internet staple. Everywhere I've ever been before. In many other forums. Even the ones I myself have moderated and owned. 

If it is a no-no, rules wise, I missed that when reading the rules here. Apologies. And now that I know the rule, I will not let it happen again. 

But...do people here really get so worked up about that when members are threatening other members?

----------


## Trinnity

....let's don't derail the thread, mk? Thanks in advance.

----------

WhoKnows (11-03-2021)

----------


## Brat

Whoops, sorry @Trinnity.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

.....

----------


## Sunsettommy

> Only a moron would miss this sentence that I highlighted.



She goes on to state under oath:

"On July 9, 2021, there were 9,048 deaths reported in VAERS. *I verified these numbers by collating all of the data from VAERS myself, not relying on a third party to report them.* In tandem, I queried data from CMS medical claims with regard to vaccines and patient deaths, and have assessed that the deaths occurring within 3 days of vaccination are higher than those reported in VAERS by a factor of at least 5."

_red bolding mine_

I wonder what the obvious follow up question was for her statement?

----------

Big Dummy (11-02-2021),Brat (11-03-2021),phoenyx (11-03-2021)

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Wildrose
> ...



Sometimes you honestly seem like a caricature. If I said something similar, your response would be a string of insults. Your hypocrisy is astounding sometimes. 

Reminds me of a certain Monty Python skit to be honest...






> How many cases of vaccine induced myocarditis and pericarditis caused by the covid vaccinations have resulted in deaths or anything other than positive outcomes?


Are you suggesting that myocarditis or pericarditis sometimes have positive outcomes?

----------

Brat (11-03-2021),WhoKnows (11-03-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Sometimes you honestly seem like a caricature. If I said something similar, your response would be a string of insults. Your hypocrisy is astounding sometimes. 
> 
> Reminds me of a certain Monty Python skit to be honest...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting that myocarditis or pericarditis sometimes have positive outcomes?


 You of course failed to answer the question.

Yes anytime the condition is temporary and causes no permanent damage.

----------


## msc

> Which in almost every case causes no permanent harm to the patient and again, virtually all of those cases resolve themselves without treatment and the few that need treatment respond very well to anti inflammatories.
> 
> How many confirmed deaths are they finding resulting from those patients in which the myo/endo carditis can be shown to have been caused by the vaccine?


You are wrong!  This is a case where you heard that most of the cases of myocarditis resolve itself, as I too have heard the very same thing, but you believed the comment on it's face.  You didn't hear the whole story.  Myocarditis resolves itself as far as the inflammation is concerned, but it leaves scarred muscle tissue. The heart is damaged and irreparable.  Now the scarring may not in most cases effect the child in their younger years, but as they get older and the heart naturally gets weaker and adult issues with the body begin to occur, this will effect the function.  Especially if that young child has heart disease in the family, and it will act as an additive to heart problems from other issues as the child becomes and adult and more of an issue when they are elderly if they are fortunate enough to get to that point. 

This I'm a little more educated about, as I spent an exuberant amount of time in talking to cardiologists and in hospitals talking to heart surgeons consistently for 8 years while my father was suffering from heart issues from his first mass heart attack in 2000, which occurred on the racket ball court, until his passing at the young age of 74 in 2008.  I'm very familiar with the permanent damage and effects that the slightest amount of scarred muscle tissue does to the heart.  

In fact my father used to joke that he thinks Dr. Kirsten was afraid of me because he knew he had to be prepared to answer a multitude of questions in detail about exactly what was going on with his heart, and what risk factors there were with every new medication, and why and with every surgery and why, and every statistic for every possible scenario and why. Always, I asked for his opinion and he knew it would be followed up with exactly what the reasoning for his opinion was.  And he knew I wouldn't leave or stop asking until I got the answers I needed to have, good or bad. I tell you this only to explain that my time as a layman spent with cardiologists and surgeons was not simple trusted banter, but a desire to educate myself with as much information as I could absorb in order to take care of and keep alive the most important person in my life with no unexpected negative surprises and never doing the wrong thing out of willing ignorance.

I say with the utmost confidence, with the knowledge I gathered about the heart, that Myocarditis in the smallest of events leaves the heart with permanent damage! FACT!

----------

Brat (11-03-2021),phoenyx (11-03-2021),WhoKnows (11-03-2021)

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Sometimes you honestly seem like a caricature. If I said something similar, your response would be a string of insults. Your hypocrisy is astounding sometimes. 
> 
> Reminds me of a certain Monty Python skit to be honest...
> 
> 
> 
> You of course failed to answer the question.



What question?







> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting that myocarditis or pericarditis sometimes have positive outcomes?
> 
> 
> Yes anytime the condition is temporary and causes no permanent damage.


That's not a positive outcome, that's a less severe outcome. Just in case anyone in the audience may have been confused by Wildrose's statements, getting myocarditis or pericarditis is never a "positive outcome". I've found that language can be used to obfuscate the truth and your comment certainly qualifies in my book. As seen from the CDC's own data, children are getting way more cases of myocarditis and pericarditis then even the CDC believed they should be getting.

----------

Brat (11-03-2021),WhoKnows (11-03-2021)

----------


## phoenyx

> You are wrong!  This is a case where you heard that most of the cases of myocarditis resolve itself, as I too have heard the very same thing, but you believed the comment on it's face.  You didn't hear the whole story.  Myocarditis resolves itself as far as the inflammation is concerned, but it leaves scarred muscle tissue. The heart is damaged and irreparable.  Now the scarring may not in most cases effect the child in their younger years, but as they get older and the heart naturally gets weaker and adult issues with the body begin to occur, this will effect the function.  Especially if that young child has heart disease in the family, and it will act as an additive to heart problems from other issues as the child becomes and adult and more of an issue when they are elderly if they are fortunate enough to get to that point. 
> 
> This I'm a little more educated about, as I spent an exuberant amount of time in talking to cardiologists and in hospitals talking to heart surgeons consistently for 8 years while my father was suffering from heart issues from his first mass heart attack in 2000, which occurred on the racket ball court, until his passing at the young age of 74 in 2008.  I'm very familiar with the permanent damage and effects that the slightest amount of scarred muscle tissue does to the heart.  
> 
> In fact my father used to joke that he thinks Dr. Kirsten was afraid of me because he knew he had to be prepared to answer a multitude of questions in detail about exactly what was going on with his heart, and what risk factors there were with every new medication, and why and with every surgery and why, and every statistic for every possible scenario and why. Always, I asked for his opinion and he knew it would be followed up with exactly what the reasoning for his opinion was.  And he knew I wouldn't leave or stop asking until I got the answers I needed to have, good or bad. I tell you this only to explain that my time as a layman spent with cardiologists and surgeons was not simple trusted banter, but a desire to educate myself with as much information as I could absorb in order to take care of and keep alive the most important person in my life with no unexpected negative surprises and never doing the wrong thing out of willing ignorance.
> 
> I say with the utmost confidence, with the knowledge I gathered about the heart, that Myocarditis in the smallest of events leaves the heart with permanent damage! FACT!


Thank you for your knowledge on this msc.

----------

Brat (11-03-2021),WhoKnows (11-03-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> You are wrong!  This is a case where you heard that most of the cases of myocarditis resolve itself, as I too have heard the very same thing, but you believed the comment on it's face.  You didn't hear the whole story.  Myocarditis resolves itself as far as the inflammation is concerned, but it leaves scarred muscle tissue. The heart is damaged and irreparable.  Now the scarring may not in most cases effect the child in their younger years, but as they get older and the heart naturally gets weaker and adult issues with the body begin to occur, this will effect the function.  Especially if that young child has heart disease in the family, and it will act as an additive to heart problems from other issues as the child becomes and adult and more of an issue when they are elderly if they are fortunate enough to get to that point. 
> 
> This I'm a little more educated about, as I spent an exuberant amount of time in talking to cardiologists and in hospitals talking to heart surgeons consistently for 8 years while my father was suffering from heart issues from his first mass heart attack in 2000, which occurred on the racket ball court, until his passing at the young age of 74 in 2008.  I'm very familiar with the permanent damage and effects that the slightest amount of scarred muscle tissue does to the heart.  
> 
> In fact my father used to joke that he thinks Dr. Kirsten was afraid of me because he knew he had to be prepared to answer a multitude of questions in detail about exactly what was going on with his heart, and what risk factors there were with every new medication, and why and with every surgery and why, and every statistic for every possible scenario and why. Always, I asked for his opinion and he knew it would be followed up with exactly what the reasoning for his opinion was.  And he knew I wouldn't leave or stop asking until I got the answers I needed to have, good or bad. I tell you this only to explain that my time as a layman spent with cardiologists and surgeons was not simple trusted banter, but a desire to educate myself with as much information as I could absorb in order to take care of and keep alive the most important person in my life with no unexpected negative surprises and never doing the wrong thing out of willing ignorance.
> 
> I say with the utmost confidence, with the knowledge I gathered about the heart, that Myocarditis in the smallest of events leaves the heart with permanent damage! FACT!


No I'm not wrong.

The potential for long term effects is dependent on how severe the case is and it's duration.

Myocarditis and pericarditis are simply an inflammatory response, part of your own immune system.

Most every viral respiratory infection and many that affect other systems cause them so they are conditions that may appear numerous times throughout one's life and most will go undetected.

----------


## Wildrose

> What question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a positive outcome, that's a less severe outcome. Just in case anyone in the audience may have been confused by Wildrose's statements, getting myocarditis or pericarditis is never a "positive outcome". I've found that language can be used to obfuscate the truth and your comment certainly qualifies in my book. As seen from the CDC's own data, children are getting way more cases of myocarditis and pericarditis then even the CDC believed they should be getting.


When the patient makes a full recovery it is by any understood definition a positive outcome.

----------


## WhoKnows

> No I'm not wrong.
> 
> The potential for long term effects is dependent on how severe the case is and it's duration.
> 
> Myocarditis and pericarditis are simply an inflammatory response, part of your own immune system.
> 
> Most every viral respiratory infection and many that affect other systems cause them so they are conditions that may appear numerous times throughout one's life and most will go undetected.


Folks. Come on. He's not wrong because he says so. With no actual expertise in what he's talking about. We can all rest easy now.

----------

Brat (11-03-2021),phoenyx (11-03-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Folks. Come on. He's not wrong because he says so. With no actual expertise in what he's talking about. We can all rest easy now.


Instead of just continued trolling and being an ass to save face why don't you try and show anything I said in that post to be wrong?

----------


## WhoKnows

> Instead of just continued trolling and being an ass to save face why don't you try and show anything I said in that post to be wrong?


It takes a certainly level pf humility to accept when one is wrong about something. You do not possess that humility. Myself and others have shown you in multiple threads that you are wrong, yet, you refuse to accept that you are wrong. 

You and you alone seem to think that you are the one to accept when you are wrong. That's not exactly how it works. Especially when insurmountable evidence is given against your beliefs.

----------

Brat (11-03-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> It takes a certainly level pf humility to accept when one is wrong about something. You do not possess that humility. Myself and others have shown you in multiple threads that you are wrong, yet, you refuse to accept that you are wrong. 
> 
> You and you alone seem to think that you are the one to accept when you are wrong. That's not exactly how it works. Especially when insurmountable evidence is given against your beliefs.


Yet you haven't.  On rare occasions I err, I have no issue accepting that and moving on.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Yet you haven't.  On rare occasions I err, I have no issue accepting that and moving on.


Plenty of us have. Your inability to accept that you are wrong doesn't make you right. And your continuing assertion that you are because you said so makes it even more certain that you are wrong.

----------

Brat (11-03-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> Plenty of us have. Your inability to accept that you are wrong doesn't make you right. And your continuing assertion that you are because you said so makes it even more certain that you are wrong.


Your baseless assertions don't make you right either.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Your baseless assertions don't make you right either.


When those "baseless assertions" are actual evidence of proof you are wrong, they most certainly do. 

Or when I quote your words, with proof that what you claim is untrue, and then you call me a liar because you claim you didn't write what is clear as day that you did, or you didn't mean it a certain, it mostly means your are wrong. 

Again, you not saying you are not wrong because you said so does not make you right. It only further asserts that you can't admit that you are wrong.

----------

Brat (11-03-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> When those "baseless assertions" are actual evidence of proof you are wrong, they most certainly do. 
> 
> Or when I quote your words, with proof that what you claim is untrue, and then you call me a liar because you claim you didn't write what is clear as day that you did, or you didn't mean it a certain, it mostly means your are wrong. 
> 
> Again, you not saying you are not wrong because you said so does not make your right. It only further asserts that you can't admit that you are wrong.



Please do continue, I'd hate to get in your way.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Please do continue, I'd hate to get in your way.


Don't worry. You can't. Ever.

----------


## phoenyx

> Folks. Come on. He's not wrong because he says so. With no actual expertise in what he's talking about. We can all rest easy now.


I've been looking online to see what people have said about myocarditis before Covid came along. One article had a brief synopsis:
**
*Myocarditis Recovery: How Long Does It Take to Heal?*


Myocarditis, a disorder marked by inflammation of myocardium (heart muscle), could be potentially fatal – though it often relieves without leaving serious after effects. The recovery time of the disease (how long it takes to heal) is dependent on several factors. In general, many cases of uncomplicated myocarditis will heal more quickly than if the disease has become advanced.

*Treatment options (what you need to know)*

Mild, uncomplicated myocarditis is usually not serious and often treated successfully. But in severe cases, the disease may cause damage to the heart, leading to a number of serious problems such as heart failure, heart attack, stroke, and even sudden cardiac death. Even a heart transplant may be required in rare cases.

Since the disease could potentially turn into serious, early diagnosis is important even though if you have the mild one. Unfortunately, it’s not always easy to catch the disease early. In fact, data on how many people affected by myocarditis each year is not available.
Sometimes the disease (in mild case) doesn’t exhibit any symptoms, making it difficult to diagnose. The only sign of the disease may be temporary abnormalities shown on echocardiogram and EKG (electrocardiogram) tests. Furthermore, people are more likely to not seek medical help until the symptoms become quite advanced.

In serious situations, (depending on the underlying cause) the symptoms of the disease may include;

Discomfort, painful sensation in the chest.Arrhythmias (abnormal heart rhythms).Difficulty breathing or shortness of breath – especially during physical activity. As the disease progresses, shortness of breath may even occur at rest.Fluid retention, causing swelling in certain parts of the body such as feet, ankles, and legs. This can occur if the heart works harder than usual.Other symptoms include viral infectious symptoms (for examples fever, joint pain, body aches, headache, or sore throat) and fatigue.
**

Full article:
Myocarditis Recovery: How Long Does It Take to Heal?



I also went looking to hear some info on myocarditis that is induced by covid vaccines. Here's some quotes from an article I found for that subject:

**
*There’s No Mild in Myocarditis*
*Teens experience acute heart inflammation post COVID vaccination*
[snip]

The Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) is a passive surveillance system open to the public. The CDC has pointed out that “VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem, but is especially useful for detecting unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse event reporting that might indicate a problem with a vaccine.”

VAERS has seen an unprecedented number of reported injuries post-COVID-19 vaccination. The Epoch Times interviewed one emergency room doctor in Arizona, speaking on background, who said he’s seeing two or three patients coming into the emergency room each day with vaccine-related injuries, but has never filed a single report, and prior to March 2020, he had never heard of VAERS.

Health care professionals aren’t paid to file such reports, the system is often down, and it can take up to an hour to file a report. Despite this, as of Aug. 6, there have been 595,620 domestic and nondomestic reports of adverse events following receipt of COVID-19 vaccines as of Aug. 13. This includes 4,861 reports of myocarditis/pericarditis, 5,882 reports of heart attacks, and 13,068 deaths.

But despite those unusually high numbers, Dr. Bose Ravenel, a retired integrative medical doctor based in North Carolina with 49 years of experience practicing pediatrics, believes that the real number of adverse events in tweens and teens, particularly of myocarditis and pericarditis, is grossly underreported.

“The number of young people having heart events is much higher than what’s being reported, and the severity and duration of these events is being downplayed,” Ravenel said.

Luke Yamaguchi, a functional nutritionist based in Albany, Oregon, has been following the weekly VAERS COVID-19 updates and posting them on Facebook.

“Deaths following COVID vaccination reported to VAERS now exceed the total number of deaths reported for all other vaccines combined over the past 30 years,” Yamaguchi said. “People will say VAERS can’t prove causation, and that’s true. But this is one of the biggest safety signals we’ve ever seen.”
**

Full article here:
Thereâ€™s No Mild in Myocarditis

----------


## phoenyx

> When the patient makes a full recovery it is by any understood definition a positive outcome.


My apologies, I wasn't aware of that definition. A quick internet search helped:
Positive health outcomes following health-promoting and disease-preventive interventions for independent very old persons: long-term results of the three-armed RCT Elderly Persons in the Risk Zone - PubMed

----------

Wildrose (11-03-2021)

----------


## msc

> No I'm not wrong.
> 
> The potential for long term effects is dependent on how severe the case is and it's duration.
> 
> Myocarditis and pericarditis are simply an inflammatory response, part of your own immune system.
> 
> Most every viral respiratory infection and many that affect other systems cause them so they are conditions that may appear numerous times throughout one's life and most will go undetected.


And all events leave scar tissue.  How much scar tissue is left, depends on how severe the event and how often events have occurred.  A healthy heart has NO scar tissue.

----------

phoenyx (11-04-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> And all events leave scar tissue.  How much scar tissue is left, depends on how severe the event and how often events have occurred.  A healthy heart has NO scar tissue.


Not necessarily.  There is no scarring unless there is enough damage to tear tissues or if the inflammation is severe eough to cause cell death.

Scarring is at it's most basic level simply patching wounds.

----------


## msc

> Not necessarily.  There is no scarring unless there is enough damage to tear tissues or if the inflammation is severe eough to cause cell death.
> 
> Scarring is at it's most basic level simply patching wounds.


I've been looking for info and statistics to prove your contention that myocarditis doesn't always leave scar tissue and found nothing.  The closest I found was that many can live with few to no complications.  Nothing stating that a mild case of myocarditis does not leave scar tissue.  Everything I read on top of everything I've learned in the past indicates that myocarditis always leaves scar tissue.  It may be small enough not to effect ones life if all goes well.  I'd welcome information that you have found to the contrary. 


*Inflammation*

Sometimes inflammation is due to a virus which attacks the muscle of the heart (myocarditis). The heart muscle may be further injured when the body's immune system tries to get rid of the virus. When too many heart muscle cells are damaged, the heart muscle may become severely weakened so that the heart can't pump effectively. The process may be rapid and may result in death. More commonly, the heart begins to heal itself. If there are few dead cells, the heart may improve completely, or at least in part. Heart muscle heals by changing dead cells to scar tissue. *Scar tissue does not contract and can't help the heart to pump*. If enough scar tissue forms, congestive heart failure (the inability of the heart to pump enough blood to meet the demands of the body) may result.
https://www.luriechildrens.org/en/sp...spericarditis/


*Understanding Myocarditis*

In simple terms, myocarditis is a disease that causes inflammation of the heart muscle. This inflammation enlarges and weakens the heart, creates scar tissue and forces it to work harder to circulate blood and oxygen throughout the body.
https://www.myocarditisfoundation.or...t-myocarditis/


Once formed, *heart scar tissue remains for life*, reducing the heart's ability to pump blood and adding strain to the remaining heart muscle. People who develop larger scars have a higher risk of heart rhythm problems, heart failure and sudden cardiac death.

What is a myocardial scar?
Myocardial scarring is *the accumulation of fibrosis tissue resulting after some form of trauma to the cardiac tissue*. Fibrosis is the formation of excess tissue in replacement of necrotic or extensively damaged tissue. Fibrosis in the heart is often hard to detect because fibromas are often formed.

The damage from myocarditis, on the other hand, can spread over the whole heart. *You can have scarring in every area of your heart. Viral myocarditis is one of the leading causes of sudden cardiac death, especially in young adults up to 30 years*https://thewell.unc.edu 


When the heart muscle becomes inflamed (myocarditis), it cannot pump as well because of damage to its cells and swelling (edema).
The myocardium is the muscular wall of the heart, or the heart muscle. It contracts to pump blood out of the heart and then relaxes as the heart refills with returning blood. The myocardium’s smooth outer membrane is called the epicardium. Its inner lining is called the endocardium.Myocarditis is an inflammation of the myocardium. When the heart becomes inflamed, it cannot pump as well because of damage to its cells and swelling (edema). The heart muscle may be damaged even more if your body’s immune system sends antibodies to try to fight whatever started the inflammation. Sometimes, these antibodies attack the tissues of your heart instead. If too many heart muscle cells are damaged, the heart muscle becomes weakened. In some cases, this process happens very quickly and results in heart failure or even sudden death.More often, the heart tries to heal itself by changing the damaged or dead heart muscle cells into scar tissue. Scar tissue is not like heart muscle tissue because it does not contract and it cannot help the heart to pump. If enough scar tissue forms in the heart, it can lead to congestive heart failure or dilated cardiomyopathy.
https://www.texasheart.org/heart-hea...s/myocarditis/


It's one thing to be pro vax, but that should not include denying real side effects from the vaccine, as ALL vaccines and medications have some negative side effects, be it small or large.  We should not be down playing real health threats to support something.    It could be true that the vaccine helps more people than it harms while still acknowledging there is a real health threat to the people it does harm.  Something does not have to be all good or all bad.

----------

phoenyx (11-05-2021),WhoKnows (11-05-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> Not necessarily.  There is no scarring unless there is enough damage to tear tissues or if the inflammation is severe eough to cause cell death.
> 
> Scarring is at it's most basic level simply patching wounds.


Can you please cite an article about this? I don't know that I agree with your definition.

Can you detail a situation where there is trauma, but not enough inflammation to cause cell death? And it doesn't have to be physical trauma, either. It can be trauma via infection, etc.

What kind of damage doesn't "tear tissue"? At the cellular level?

----------

phoenyx (11-05-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> I've been looking for info and statistics to prove your contention that myocarditis doesn't always leave scar tissue and found nothing.  The closest I found was that many can live with few to no complications.  Nothing stating that a mild case of myocarditis does not leave scar tissue.  Everything I read on top of everything I've learned in the past indicates that myocarditis always leaves scar tissue.  It may be small enough not to effect ones life if all goes well.  I'd welcome information that you have found to the contrary. 
> 
> 
> *Inflammation*
> 
> Sometimes inflammation is due to a virus which attacks the muscle of the heart (myocarditis). The heart muscle may be further injured when the body's immune system tries to get rid of the virus. When too many heart muscle cells are damaged, the heart muscle may become severely weakened so that the heart can't pump effectively. The process may be rapid and may result in death. More commonly, the heart begins to heal itself. If there are few dead cells, the heart may improve completely, or at least in part. Heart muscle heals by changing dead cells to scar tissue. *Scar tissue does not contract and can't help the heart to pump*. If enough scar tissue forms, congestive heart failure (the inability of the heart to pump enough blood to meet the demands of the body) may result.
> https://www.luriechildrens.org/en/sp...spericarditis/
> 
> 
> ...


You conveniently forgot the sentence just prior to the one you highlighted.




> _More commonly_, the heart begins to heal itself. If there are few dead cells, the heart may improve completely, or at least in part. Heart muscle heals by changing dead cells to scar tissue.


The long term effects are directly dependent on the severity of the disease.

----------


## Wildrose

> Can you please cite an article about this? I don't know that I agree with your definition.
> 
> Can you detail a situation where there is trauma, but not enough inflammation to cause cell death? And it doesn't have to be physical trauma, either. It can be trauma via infection, etc.
> 
> What kind of damage doesn't "tear tissue"? At the cellular level?


When the patient only has a mild case.

----------


## Wildrose

> Can you please cite an article about this? I don't know that I agree with your definition.
> 
> Can you detail a situation where there is trauma, but not enough inflammation to cause cell death? And it doesn't have to be physical trauma, either. It can be trauma via infection, etc.
> 
> What kind of damage doesn't "tear tissue"? At the cellular level?


Since inflammation is the most common response to injury and infection we'd all be dead before puberty if it always caused massive cellular death.

There is only cellular death when the cells are ruptured or circulation is cut off for a significant period of time.

Battlefield trauma treatment has shown us that cells can live a very long time, up to 24 hours even when a tourniquet is properly applied shutting down blood flow.

Scarring creates a bridge across dead tissue linking live tissues so yes, it is like a patch over a wound.

----------


## msc

> You conveniently forgot the sentence just prior to the one you highlighted.
> 
> 
> 
> The long term effects are directly dependent on the severity of the disease.


I didn't forget that sentence. I posted it.  I also acknowledged it in my opening when I said many can live with few to no complications. Still this sentence does not say the scar tissue is not there. "The heart may improve completely" is not stating there is not scar tissue. 

I do not understand why you are arguing that myocarditis is not a serious issue.  I feel strongly about your opposition, because I was familiar with the seriousness and danger of scar tissue on the heart, congestive heart failure, myocarditis, and the strength and fragility of the heart for over a decade. Way before covid 19 and the covid vaccine existed.  I did not link myocarditis to the vaccine. The doctors, scientists, researchers, CDC did.  I wouldn't have calculated that myocarditis is a side effect.  The vaccine link to myocarditis, I didn't know about until it was documented as a side effect, then publicized.  I'm not even addressing the link of myocarditis to the vaccine.  I'm just talking about myocarditis and that I know it's dangerous and something that can effect the rest of your life.  

I wonder if you would be arguing about the effects of myocarditis if this were a conversation simply about heart disease and not linked to the vaccine as a side effect.  If myocarditis were not linked to the vaccine and say someone on this forum was discussing that their son had myocarditis, would you be offering your medical advice and experience with myocarditis to that person?  What is your experience and education with heart disease?

----------

phoenyx (11-06-2021),WhoKnows (11-07-2021)

----------


## Wildrose

> I didn't forget that sentence. I posted it.  I also acknowledged it in my opening when I said many can live with few to no complications. Still this sentence does not say the scar tissue is not there. "The heart may improve completely" is not stating there is not scar tissue. 
> 
> I do not understand why you are arguing that myocarditis is not a serious issue.  I feel strongly about your opposition, because I was familiar with the seriousness and danger of scar tissue on the heart, congestive heart failure, myocarditis, and the strength and fragility of the heart for over a decade. Way before covid 19 and the covid vaccine existed.  I did not link myocarditis to the vaccine. The doctors, scientists, researchers, CDC did.  I wouldn't have calculated that myocarditis is a side effect.  The vaccine link to myocarditis, I didn't know about until it was documented as a side effect, then publicized.  I'm not even addressing the link of myocarditis to the vaccine.  I'm just talking about myocarditis and that I know it's dangerous and something that can effect the rest of your life.  
> 
> I wonder if you would be arguing about the effects of myocarditis if this were a conversation simply about heart disease and not linked to the vaccine as a side effect.  If myocarditis were not linked to the vaccine and say someone on this forum was discussing that their son had myocarditis, would you be offering your medical advice and experience with myocarditis to that person?  What is your experience and education with heart disease?


If that is true then you need to read it again.  If there is little to no cell damage there will be an imperceptable amount of, or even no scarring.

I've never said either condition can't be serious, in rare cases it is deadly serious or can seriously limit cardiac function in the future.  Those cases so far show to be very rare.
"Linked" is not a precise term, it does not mean causation.

Again, most myo and pericarditis are so mild they are never diagnosed and all of our normal respiratory viruses and other cause the condition which we've known long before the vaccines were invented.

Unless something has changed drastically the rate of vaccine induced myo and pericarditis is about 3-5 per million patients.

Every vaccine carries associated risks which is why those risks and overall patient need for vaccination need to be weighed before the dicision is made one way or another.

In young healthy people the risks associated witih a covid infection can't be shown to warrant vaccination except on cases of where people due to exposure or work environment etc at all.

----------


## Wildrose

> I didn't forget that sentence. I posted it.  I also acknowledged it in my opening when I said many can live with few to no complications. Still this sentence does not say the scar tissue is not there. "The heart may improve completely" is not stating there is not scar tissue. 
> 
> I do not understand why you are arguing that myocarditis is not a serious issue.  I feel strongly about your opposition, because I was familiar with the seriousness and danger of scar tissue on the heart, congestive heart failure, myocarditis, and the strength and fragility of the heart for over a decade. Way before covid 19 and the covid vaccine existed.  I did not link myocarditis to the vaccine. The doctors, scientists, researchers, CDC did.  I wouldn't have calculated that myocarditis is a side effect.  The vaccine link to myocarditis, I didn't know about until it was documented as a side effect, then publicized.  I'm not even addressing the link of myocarditis to the vaccine.  I'm just talking about myocarditis and that I know it's dangerous and something that can effect the rest of your life.  
> 
> I wonder if you would be arguing about the effects of myocarditis if this were a conversation simply about heart disease and not linked to the vaccine as a side effect.  If myocarditis were not linked to the vaccine and say someone on this forum was discussing that their son had myocarditis, would you be offering your medical advice and experience with myocarditis to that person?  What is your experience and education with heart disease?





> If myocarditis were not linked to the vaccine and say someone on this forum was discussing that their son had myocarditis, would you be offering your medical advice and experience with myocarditis to that person? What is your experience and education with heart disease?


Much more extensive than that of the Average American.

I can't diagnose or treat patients but I'm certainly qualified to discuss the subject and share statistical data along with general information.

----------


## msc

> Much more extensive than that of the Average American.
> 
> I can't diagnose or treat patients but I'm certainly qualified to discuss the subject and share statistical data along with general information.


Look, this is going no where.  I'm not trying to insult you or anyone.   I've posted as much info as I can to explain what I know.  You can and will chose your own perspective and that's fine.  I just know that myocarditis leaves scar tissue, scar tissue does not go away and I wouldn't want anyone I love to have suffered a case of myocarditis. If it were my son, I'd go to my death praying that when he is older it will not add to any complications that he will most likely have as an elderly person.  Like you said it often goes undetected, but that doesn't mean it's not there and can not cause complications in the future. I've spoken about all I know and I have nothing more to add.  Take it for what you or anyone believes it's worth.  If you value it to have no worth, then so be it.  It's all good.

----------

Big Dummy (11-07-2021),WhoKnows (11-07-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> Since inflammation is the most common response to injury and infection we'd all be dead before puberty if it always caused massive cellular death.
> 
> There is only cellular death when the cells are ruptured or circulation is cut off for a significant period of time.
> 
> Battlefield trauma treatment has shown us that cells can live a very long time, up to 24 hours even when a tourniquet is properly applied shutting down blood flow.
> 
> Scarring creates a bridge across dead tissue linking live tissues so yes, it is like a patch over a wound.


You clearly don't know know how wound healing occurs, and the phases of it.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Much more extensive than that of the Average American.
> 
> *I can't diagnose or treat patients but I'm certainly qualified to discuss the subject and share statistical data along with general information.*


Bold mine. How are you qualified to discuss the subject?

----------


## msc

> Bold mine. How are you qualified to discuss the subject?


It's not about being qualified to discuss this.  I personally welcome all discussion.  Everyone is qualified to have a conversation and I by no means was trying to attack or demean Wildrose.  I just don't understand the confidence displayed about the lack of danger from the mildest case of myocarditis.  Heart complications took my Dad, who I love dearly.  It was the most devastating loss in my life. Talk about many other illnesses and I don't have much factual information to offer, but talk about the importance, strength, and fragility of the heart, then I confidently say that I am educated to a large extent, but admittedly as a layman.  I have no formal education or qualifications that should be considered.  Just an average person who had to learn as much as possible about the heart due to the unfortunate life experience of having a father that suffered from and was taken from us due to heart trauma. 

Here I am speaking from my heart and simply warn people to weigh risk worth benefit, because myocarditis is not joke.

----------

Brat (11-07-2021),phoenyx (11-07-2021),WhoKnows (11-07-2021)

----------


## phoenyx

> Everyone is qualified to have a conversation and I by no means was trying to attack or demean Wildrose.  I just don't understand the confidence displayed about the lack of danger from the mildest case of myocarditis.


Wildrose seems to have an inordinate amount of confidence in a lot of positions despite the fact that he rarely brings much evidence to the table. If all he had was too much confidence, I wouldn't mind. The problem is that he tends to insult those who don't share his beliefs. That I mind.

----------

Brat (11-07-2021),WhoKnows (11-07-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> It's not about being qualified to discuss this.  I personally welcome all discussion.  Everyone is qualified to have a conversation and I by no means was trying to attack or demean Wildrose.  I just don't understand the confidence displayed about the lack of danger from the mildest case of myocarditis.  Heart complications took my Dad, who I love dearly.  It was the most devastating loss in my life. Talk about many other illnesses and I don't have much factual information to offer, but talk about the importance, strength, and fragility of the heart, then I confidently say that I am educated to a large extent, but admittedly as a layman.  I have no formal education or qualifications that should be considered.  Just an average person who had to learn as much as possible about the heart due to the unfortunate life experience of having a father that suffered from and was taken from us due to heart trauma. 
> 
> Here I am speaking from my heart and simply warn people to weigh risk worth benefit, because myocarditis is not joke.


I understand what you mean, however,  when someone speaks with such authority, and also admits that he doesn't quite have the knowledge he says he does, by admitting he's not licenses to treat or diagnose said issues, it calls into question his expertise on the matter. 

And he rarely shows any evidence of what he says. Basically asserting that what he says is fact. Which it isn't. And then when you question that about him, he unleashes insult after insult, rather than answering pointed questions.

It would be one thing if he was giving his opinion, and relenting that he isn't the end all be all of the topic. But that's not how he rolls. You either accept what he says as gospel, or you are so stupid, he doesn't have the time to explain it to you. Even when the "evidence" he posts is less than accurate, or proof of anything, he continues his tirade. 

Sorry, but no.

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Brat (11-07-2021),phoenyx (11-07-2021)

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## Wildrose

> Look, this is going no where.  I'm not trying to insult you or anyone.   I've posted as much info as I can to explain what I know.  You can and will chose your own perspective and that's fine.  I just know that myocarditis leaves scar tissue, scar tissue does not go away and I wouldn't want anyone I love to have suffered a case of myocarditis. If it were my son, I'd go to my death praying that when he is older it will not add to any complications that he will most likely have as an elderly person.  Like you said it often goes undetected, but that doesn't mean it's not there and can not cause complications in the future. I've spoken about all I know and I have nothing more to add.  Take it for what you or anyone believes it's worth.  If you value it to have no worth, then so be it.  It's all good.


You asked I answered.

Myo and Pericarditis conditions can range for no harm done at all to death depending on a lot of factors, mainly the duration and extent of the disease.

I wouldn't want any of my kids to have it, hell I don't want to see kids get splinters but vaccination necessity is always a risk vs reward equation.

There's no reason at all for healthy young folks under 25 to be vaccinated at all unless they are working in a very high risk environment because they rarely even get a  symptomatic infection with Covid, much less serious or critical.

Vaccination only makes sense for those in the highest risk categories and those at the greatest risk should be self quarantining until the risk is eliminated.

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## Wildrose

> You clearly don't know know how wound healing occurs, and the phases of it.


I've clearly demonstrated I do and you've demonstrated the ability to do nothing but run your yap making baseless insults.

I also supported my case with an unquestionably authoritative source and you cannot.

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## WhoKnows

> I've clearly demonstrated I do and you've demonstrated the ability to do nothing but run your yap making baseless insults.
> 
> I also supported my case with an unquestionably authoritative source and you cannot.


I am saying that you don't know how wound healing works. That's not an insult. It's fact. You don't.

And you provided no links to anything in your responses to my posts. The posts I made responding to you.

I'm not "running my yap". I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation. So please, if you don't want to have a reasonable conversation, well...don't. Trying to belittle me doesn't make your argument any stronger. It only shows to others what an angry person you are. And one who doesn't really want to converse.

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## Wildrose

> Bold mine. How are you qualified to discuss the subject?


Everyone with a voice is qualified to discuss it.

I have a much more extensive education and experience than the vast majority of the public and you certainly have demonstrated neither.

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## Wildrose

> I am saying that you don't know how wound healing works. That's not an insult. It's fact. You don't. 
> 
> And you provided no links to anything in your responses to my posts. The posts I made responding to you.


You saying it does not make it a fact.

You haven't and can't show where what I stated is incorrect so you keep on with the empty headed trolling.

Discuss | Definition of Discuss by Merriam-Webster

What Is Scar Tissue, and How Do I Get Rid of It? | The Pain  Injury Doctor

You just keep making an ass of yourself because you apparently don't know better.

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## WhoKnows

> Everyone with a voice is qualified to discuss it.
> 
> I have a much more extensive education and experience than the vast majority of the public and you certainly have demonstrated neither.


Once again, with insults.

You see, you saying all these things about me doesn't make them true. You not accepting anything of what I said doesn't make what I say not true. You continuing to berate me only makes you look foolish, as does your inability to accept being wrong. 

Your application of your "extensive education and experience" to me leaves much to be desired. As does your general attitude towards others on these forums. 

That is all a reflection of you, and has nothing to do with me. 

Can you provide information of what you say happens when healing from an injury occurs or not? Not your opinion. Actual scientific information where it has been shown that a certain degree of trauma can occur without scar tissue of any kind being formed? Since you were the one making the assertion, you are the one charged with proving it.

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## Wildrose

> Once again, with insults.
> 
> You see, you saying all these things about me doesn't make them true. You not accepting anything of what I said doesn't make what I say not true. You continuing to berate me only makes you look foolish, as does your inability to accept being wrong. 
> 
> Your application of your "extensive education and experience" to me leaves much to be desired. As does your general attitude towards others on these forums. 
> 
> That is all a reflection of you, and has nothing to do with me. 
> 
> Can you provide information of what you say happens when healing from an injury occurs or not? Not your opinion. Actual scientific information where it has been shown that a certain degree of trauma can occur without scar tissue of any kind being formed? Since you were the one making the assertion, you are the one charged with proving it.


I already have, but do droll on.

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## WhoKnows

> You saying it does not make it a fact.
> 
> You haven't and can't show where what I stated is incorrect so you keep on with the empty headed trolling.
> 
> Discuss | Definition of Discuss by Merriam-Webster
> 
> What Is Scar Tissue, and How Do I Get Rid of It? | The Pain  Injury Doctor
> 
> You just keep making an ass of yourself because you apparently don't know better.


Ummm, I urge everyone to read the article he posted on "What is scar tissue..." 

He is contradicting himself without even realizing it. 

Can you not have a conversation with anyone who disagrees with you without insulting them? Btw, I don't have to prove you are incorrect. YOU have to prove that you are correct. That's how it works. And you haven't. At all.

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## WhoKnows

> I already have, but do droll on.


The information you provided proves you wrong. Well done.

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msc (11-08-2021)

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## Wildrose

> Ummm, I urge everyone to read the article he posted on "What is scar tissue..." 
> 
> He is contradicting himself without even realizing it. 
> 
> Can you not have a conversation with anyone who disagrees with you without insulting them? Btw, I don't have to prove you are incorrect. YOU have to prove that you are correct. That's how it works. And you haven't. At all.


And you continue just running off at the mouth and have yet to show what I stated wasn't correct.

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## Wildrose

> The information you provided proves you wrong. Well done.


How specifically?

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## WhoKnows

> How specifically?


LMAO...like you really want to know. I'll let other read what you posted and let them make up their own mind about it. 

Sorry, but your continued behavior is atrocious. I don't have time for you any longer.

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## Wildrose

> LMAO...like you really want to know. I'll let other read what you posted and let them make up their own mind about it. 
> 
> Sorry, but your continued behavior is atrocious. I don't have time for you any longer.


Proving yet again you can't support your claims.  Thanks.

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## WhoKnows

> Proving yet again you can't support your claims.  Thanks.


Whatever you say. Last word.

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## Wildrose

> What question?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a positive outcome, that's a less severe outcome. Just in case anyone in the audience may have been confused by Wildrose's statements, getting myocarditis or pericarditis is never a "positive outcome". I've found that language can be used to obfuscate the truth and your comment certainly qualifies in my book. As seen from the CDC's own data, children are getting way more cases of myocarditis and pericarditis then even the CDC believed they should be getting.


Patients making a full recovery is by definition a positive outcome.

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## Wildrose

> Whatever you say. Last word.


 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

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## phoenyx

> Patients making a full recovery is by definition a positive outcome.


Yeah, you've told me before. Looks like you missed this post of mine:
https://thepoliticsforums.com/thread...=1#post2899113

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