# Stuff and Things > COVID & VACCINES >  How the COVID-19 Vaccine Destroys Your Immune System | Mercola.com

## phoenyx

Another good article from Mercola.com...

**
Analysis by Dr. Joseph Mercola


November 23, 2021
*STORY AT-A-GLANCE*


According to a study that examined how informed consent is given to COVID-19 vaccine trial participants, disclosure forms fail to inform volunteers that the vaccine might make them susceptible to more severe disease if they’re exposed to the virus

Previous coronavirus vaccine efforts — including those for SARS, MERS and RSV — have revealed a serious concern: The vaccines have a tendency to trigger antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE)ADE means that rather than enhance your immunity against the infection, the vaccine actually enhances the virus’ ability to enter and infect your cells, resulting in more severe disease than had you not been vaccinatedLethal Th2 immunopathology is another potential risk. A faulty T cell response can trigger allergic inflammation, and poorly functional antibodies that form immune complexes can activate the complement system, resulting in airway damageThere’s evidence showing the elderly — who are most vulnerable to severe COVID-19 and would need the vaccine the most — are also the most vulnerable to ADE and Th2 immunopathology

This article was previously published November 11, 2020, and has been updated with new information.
According to a study that examined how informed consent is given to COVID-19 vaccine trial participants, disclosure forms fail to inform volunteers that the vaccine might make them susceptible to more severe disease if they're exposed to the virus.
The study,1 "Informed Consent Disclosure to Vaccine Trial Subjects of Risk of COVID-19 Vaccine Worsening Clinical Disease," published in the International Journal of Clinical Practice, October 28, 2020, points out that "COVID-19 vaccines designed to elicit neutralizing antibodies may sensitize vaccine recipients to more severe disease than if they were not vaccinated."_"Vaccines for SARS, MERS and RSV have never been approved, and the data generated in the development and testing of these vaccines suggest a serious mechanistic concern: that vaccines designed empirically using the traditional approach (consisting of the unmodified or minimally modified coronavirus viral spike to elicit neutralizing antibodies), be they composed of protein, viral vector, DNA or RNA and irrespective of delivery method, may worsen COVID-19 disease via antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE),"_ the paper states._"This risk is sufficiently obscured in clinical trial protocols and consent forms for ongoing COVID-19 vaccine trials that adequate patient comprehension of this risk is unlikely to occur, obviating truly informed consent by subjects in these trials.__The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical ethics standard of patient comprehension for informed consent."_*What Is Antibody-Dependent Enhancement?*


As noted by the authors of that International Journal of Clinical Practice paper, previous coronavirus vaccine efforts — for severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV), Middle East respiratory syndrome coronavirus (MERS-CoV) and respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) — have revealed a serious concern: The vaccines have a tendency to trigger antibody-dependent enhancement.

What exactly does that mean? In a nutshell, it means that rather than enhance your immunity against the infection, the vaccine actually enhances the virus' ability to enter and infect your cells, resulting in more severe disease than had you not been vaccinated.2

This is the exact opposite of what a vaccine is supposed to do, and a significant problem that has been pointed out from the very beginning of this push for a COVID-19 vaccine. The 2003 review paper "Antibody-Dependent Enhancement of Virus Infection and Disease" explains it this way:3_

"In general, virus-specific antibodies are considered antiviral and play an important role in the control of virus infections in a number of ways. However, in some instances, the presence of specific antibodies can be beneficial to the virus. This activity is known as antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) of virus infection.__
The ADE of virus infection is a phenomenon in which virus-specific antibodies enhance the entry of virus, and in some cases the replication of virus, into monocytes/macrophages and granulocytic cells through interaction with Fc and/or complement receptors.__
This phenomenon has been reported in vitro and in vivo for viruses representing numerous families and genera of public health and veterinary importance. These viruses share some common features such as preferential replication in macrophages, ability to establish persistence, and antigenic diversity. For some viruses, ADE of infection has become a great concern to disease control by vaccination."_*
Previous Coronavirus Vaccine Efforts Have All Failed*

In my May 2020 interview above with Robert Kennedy Jr., he summarized the history of coronavirus vaccine development, which began in 2002, following three consecutive SARS outbreaks. By 2012, Chinese, American and European scientists were working on SARS vaccine development, and had about 30 promising candidates.
Of those, the four best vaccine candidates were then given to ferrets, which are the closest analogue to human lung infections. In the video below, which is a select outtake from my full interview, Kennedy explains what happened next. While the ferrets displayed robust antibody response, which is the metric used for vaccine licensing, once they were challenged with the wild virus, they all became severely ill and died.
The same thing happened when they tried to develop an RSV vaccine in the 1960s. RSV is an upper respiratory illness that is very similar to that caused by coronaviruses. At that time, they had decided to skip animal trials and go directly to human trials.


_"They tested it on I think about 35 children, and the same thing happened,"_ Kennedy said._ "The children developed a champion antibody response — robust, durable. It looked perfect [but when] the children were exposed to the wild virus, they all became sick. Two of them died. They abandoned the vaccine. It was a big embarrassment to FDA and NIH."_[embedded video discussing how fast tracked vaccines could have catastrophic effects]

*Neutralizing Versus Binding Antibodies*

Coronaviruses produce not just one but two different types of antibodies:

Neutralizing antibodies,4 also referred to as immoglobulin G (IgG) antibodies, that fight the infectionBinding antibodies5 (also known as nonneutralizing antibodies) that cannot prevent viral infection
Instead of preventing viral infection, binding antibodies trigger an abnormal immune response known as "paradoxical immune enhancement." Another way to look at this is your immune system is actually backfiring and not functioning to protect you but actually making you worse.

Pfizer's and Moderna's COVID-19 shots use mRNA to instruct your cells to make the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein (S protein). The spike protein, which is what attaches to the ACE2 receptor of the cell, is the first stage of the two-stage process viruses use to gain entry into cells.

The idea is that by creating the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, your immune system will commence production of antibodies without making you sick in the process. The key question is: Which of the two types of antibodies are being produced through this process?
*Without Neutralizing Antibodies, Expect More Severe Illness*

In an April 2020 Twitter thread,6 The Immunologist noted: "While developing vaccines … and considering immunity passports, we must first understand the complex role of antibodies in SARS, MERS and COVID-19." They go on to list several coronavirus vaccine studies that have raised concerns about ADE.
The first is a 2017 study7 in PLOS Pathogens, "Enhanced Inflammation in New Zealand White Rabbits When MERS-CoV Reinfection Occurs in the Absence of Neutralizing Antibody," which investigated whether getting infected with MERS would protect the subject against reinfection, as is typically the case with many viral illnesses. (Meaning, once you recover from a viral infection, say measles, you're immune and won't contract the illness again.)

To determine how MERS affects the immune system, the researchers infected white rabbits with the virus. The rabbits got sick and developed antibodies, but those antibodies were not the neutralizing kind, meaning the kind of antibodies that block infection. As a result, they were not protected from reinfection, and when exposed to MERS for a second time, they became ill again, and more severely so.

"In fact, reinfection resulted in enhanced pulmonary inflammation, without an associated increase in viral RNA titers," the authors noted. Interestingly, neutralizing antibodies were elicited during this second infection, preventing the animals from being infected a third time. According to the authors:_"Our data from the rabbit model suggests that people exposed to MERS-CoV who fail to develop a neutralizing antibody response, or persons whose neutralizing antibody titers have waned, may be at risk for severe lung disease on re-exposure to MERS-CoV."_In other words, if the vaccine does not result in a robust response in neutralizing antibodies, you might be at risk for more severe lung disease if you're infected with the virus.
And here's an important point: COVID-19 vaccines were NOT designed to prevent infection. The manufacturers' definition of a "successful" vaccine is that it merely needs to reduce the severity of the symptoms.
*ADE in Dengue Infections*

The Dengue virus is also known to cause ADE. As explained in a Swiss Medical Weekly paper published in April 2020:8_"__The pathogenesis of COVID-19 is currently believed to proceed via both directly cytotoxic and immune-mediated mechanisms. An additional mechanism facilitating viral cell entry and subsequent damage may involve the so-called antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE)._

_ADE is a very well-known cascade of events whereby viruses may infect susceptible cells via interaction between virions complexed with antibodies or complement components and, respectively, Fc or complement receptors, leading to the amplification of their replication._
_This phenomenon is of enormous relevance not only for the understanding of viral pathogenesis, but also for developing antiviral strategies, notably vaccines …_
_There are four serotypes of Dengue virus, all eliciting protective immunity. However, although homotypic protection is long-lasting, cross-neutralizing antibodies against different serotypes are short-lived and may last only up to 2 years._
_In Dengue fever, reinfection with a different serotype runs a more severe course when the protective antibody titer wanes. Here, non-neutralizing antibodies take over neutralizing ones, bind to Dengue virions, and these complexes mediate the infection of phagocytic cells via interaction with the Fc receptor, in a typical ADE._
_In other words, heterotypic antibodies at subneutralizing titres account for ADE in persons infected with a serotype of Dengue virus that is different from the first infection._
_Cross-reactive neutralizing antibodies are associated with decreased odds of symptomatic secondary infection, and the higher the titer of such antibodies following the primary infection, the longer the delay to symptomatic secondary infection …"_The paper goes on to detail results from follow-up investigations into the Dengue vaccine, which revealed the hospitalization rate for Dengue among vaccinated children under the age of 9 was greater than the rate among controls. The explanation for this appears to be that the vaccine mimicked a primary infection, and as that immunity waned, the children became susceptible to ADE when they encountered the virus a second time. The author explains:


_"A post hoc analysis of efficacy trials, using an anti-nonstructural protein 1 immunoglobulin G (IgG) enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) to distinguish antibodies elicited by wild-type infection from those following vaccination, showed that the vaccine was able to protect against severe Dengue [in] those who had been exposed to the natural infection before vaccination, and that the risk of severe clinical outcome was increased among seronegative persons._
_Based on this, a Strategic Advisor Group of Experts convened by World Health Organization (WHO) concluded that only Dengue seropositive persons should be vaccinated whenever Dengue control programs are planned that include vaccination."_*ADE in Coronavirus Infections*

When researchers finally evaluate how the COVID-19 jabs are working so far, this could end up being important for the COVID-19 vaccine.

Hypothetically speaking, if SARS-CoV-2 works like Dengue, which is also caused by an RNA virus, then anyone who has not tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 might actually be at increased risk for severe COVID-19 after vaccination, and only those who have already recovered from a bout of COVID-19 would be protected against severe illness by the vaccine. These are important areas of inquiry and the current vaccine trials will simply not be able to answer this important question.

The Swiss Medical Weekly paper9 also reviews the evidence of ADE in coronavirus infections, citing research showing inoculating cats against the feline infectious peritonitis virus (FIPV) — a feline coronavirus — increases the severity of the disease when challenged with the same FIPV serotype as that in the vaccine.

The paper also cites research showing "Antibodies elicited by a SARS-CoV vaccine enhanced infection of B cell lines in spite of protective responses in the hamster model." Another paper,10 "Antibody-Dependent SARS Coronavirus Infection Is Mediated by Antibodies Against Spike Proteins," published in 2014, found that:


_"… higher concentrations of anti-sera against SARS-CoV neutralized SARS-CoV infection, while highly diluted anti-sera significantly increased SARS-CoV infection and induced higher levels of apoptosis._
_Results from infectivity assays indicate that SARS-CoV ADE is primarily mediated by diluted antibodies against envelope spike proteins rather than nucleocapsid proteins. We also generated monoclonal antibodies against SARS-CoV spike proteins and observed that most of them promoted SARS-CoV infection._
_Combined, our results suggest that antibodies against SARS-CoV spike proteins may trigger ADE effects. The data raise new questions regarding a potential SARS-CoV vaccine …"_A study11 that ties into this was published in the journal JCI Insight in 2019. Here, macaques vaccinated with a modified vaccinia Ankara (MVA) virus encoding full-length SARS-CoV spike protein ended up with more severe lung pathology when the animals were exposed to the SARS virus. And, when they transferred anti-spike IgG antibodies into unvaccinated macaques, they developed acute diffuse alveolar damage, likely by "skewing the inflammation-resolving response."
*SARS Vaccine Worsens Infection After Challenge With SARS-CoV*
An interesting 2012 paper12 with the telling title, "Immunization with SARS Coronavirus Vaccines Leads to Pulmonary Immunopathology on Challenge with the SARS Virus," demonstrates what many researchers now fear, namely that COVID-19 vaccines may end up making people more prone to severe SARS-CoV-2 infection.

The paper reviews experiments showing immunization with a variety of SARS vaccines resulted in pulmonary immunophathology once challenged with the SARS virus. As noted by the authors:13


_"Inactivated whole virus vaccines whether inactivated with formalin or beta propiolactone and whether given with our without alum adjuvant exhibited a Th2-type immunopathologic in lungs after challenge._
_As indicated, two reports attributed the immunopathology to presence of the N protein in the vaccine; however, we found the same immunopathologic reaction in animals given S protein vaccine only, although it appeared to be of lesser intensity._
_Thus, a Th2-type immunopathologic reaction on challenge of vaccinated animals has occurred in three of four animal models (not in hamsters) including two different inbred mouse strains with four different types of SARS-CoV vaccines with and without alum adjuvant. An inactivated vaccine preparation that does not induce this result in mice, ferrets and nonhuman primates has not been reported._
_This combined experience provides concern for trials with SARS-CoV vaccines in humans. Clinical trials with SARS coronavirus vaccines have been conducted and reported to induce antibody responses and to be 'safe.' However, the evidence for safety is for a short period of observation._
_The concern arising from the present report is for an immunopathologic reaction occurring among vaccinated individuals on exposure to infectious SARS-CoV, the basis for developing a vaccine for SARS. Additional safety concerns relate to effectiveness and safety against antigenic variants of SARS-CoV and for safety of vaccinated persons exposed to other coronaviruses, particularly those of the type 2 group."_*
The Elderly Are Most Vulnerable to ADE*

On top of all of these concerns, there's evidence showing the elderly — who are most vulnerable to severe COVID-19 — are also the most vulnerable to ADE. Preliminary research findings14 posted on the preprint server medRxiv at the end of March 2020 reported that middle-aged and elderly COVID-19 patients have far higher levels of anti-spike antibodies — which, again, increase infectivity — than younger patients.

*Immune Enhancement Is a Serious Concern*
Another paper worth mentioning is the May 2020 mini review15 "Impact of Immune Enhancement on COVID-19 Polyclonal Hyperimmune Globulin Therapy and Vaccine Development." As in many other papers, the authors point out that:16


_"While development of both hyperimmune globulin therapy and vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 are promising, they both pose a common theoretical safety concern. Experimental studies have suggested the possibility of immune-enhanced disease of SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV infections, which may thus similarly occur with SARS-CoV-2 infection …__Immune enhancement of disease can theoretically occur in two ways. Firstly, non-neutralizing or sub-neutralizing levels of antibodies can enhance SARS-CoV-2 infection into target cells.__Secondly, antibodies could enhance inflammation and hence severity of pulmonary disease. An overview of these antibody dependent infection and immunopathology enhancement effects are summarized in Fig. 1 …__Currently, there are multiple SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV vaccine candidates in pre-clinical or early phase clinical trials. Animal studies on these CoVs have shown that the spike (S) protein-based vaccines (specifically the receptor binding domain, RBD) are highly immunogenic and protective against wild-type CoV challenge.__Vaccines that target other parts of the virus, such as the nucleocapsid, without the S protein, have shown no protection against CoV infection and increased lung pathology. However, immunization with some S protein based CoV vaccines have also displayed signs of enhanced lung pathology following challenge.__Hence, besides the choice of antigen target, vaccine efficacy and risk of immunopathology may be dependent on other ancillary factors, including adjuvant formulation, age at vaccination … and route of immunization."_
mechanism-of-ade-and-antibody-mediated-immunopathology.jpeg


Figure 1: Mechanism of ADE and antibody mediated immunopathology. Left panel: For ADE, immune complex internalization is mediated by the engagement of activating Fc receptors on the cell surface. Co-ligation of inhibitory receptors then results in the inhibition of antiviral responses which leads to increased viral replication. Right panel: Antibodies can cause immunopathology by activating the complement pathway or antibody-dependent cellular cytotoxicity (ADCC). For both pathways, excessive immune activation results in the release of cytokines and chemokines, leading to enhanced disease pathology.


*Do a Risk-Benefit Analysis Before Making Up Your Mind*

Ironically, the data17,18,19 we now have no longer support a mass vaccination mandate, considering the lethality of COVID-19 is lower than the flu for those under the age of 60.20 If you're under the age of 40, your risk of dying from COVID-19 is just 0.01%, meaning you have a 99.99% chance of surviving the infection. And, you could improve that to 99.999% if you're metabolically flexible and vitamin D replete.

So, really, what are we protecting against with a COVID-19 vaccine? As mentioned, the vaccines aren't even designed to prevent infection; they're only meant to reduce the severity of symptoms.

And, as we're now seeing, as many as 1 in 100 fully vaccinated people around the world are experiencing breakthrough infections.21 When you think that the so-called "vaccine protection" also could potentially make you sicker once you're exposed to the virus, it seems like a lot of risk for a truly questionable benefit.

To circle back to where we started, neither the participants in current COVID-19 vaccine trials nor the ones lining up for the shot are being told of this risk — that by getting the vaccine they may end up with more severe COVID-19 once they're infected with the virus.

*Lethal Th2 Immunopathology Is Another Potential Risk*
In closing, consider what this PNAS news feature states about the risk of vaccine-induced immune enhancement and dysfunction, particularly for the elderly, the very people who would need the protection a vaccine might offer the most:22


_"Since the 1960s, tests of vaccine candidates for diseases such as dengue, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) have shown a paradoxical phenomenon:_
_Some animals or people who received the vaccine and were later exposed to the virus developed more severe disease than those who had not been vaccinated. The vaccine-primed immune system, in certain cases, seemed to launch a shoddy response to the natural infection …_
_This immune backfiring, or so-called immune enhancement, may manifest in different ways such as antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE), a process in which a virus leverages antibodies to aid infection; or cell-based enhancement, a category that includes allergic inflammation caused by Th2 immunopathology. In some cases, the enhancement processes might overlap …_
_Some researchers argue that although ADE has received the most attention to date, it is less likely than the other immune enhancement pathways to cause a dysregulated response to COVID-19, given what is known about the epidemiology of the virus and its behavior in the human body._
_'There is the potential for ADE, but the bigger problem is probably Th2 immunopathology,' says Ralph Baric, an epidemiologist and expert in coronaviruses … at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill._
_In previous studies of SARS, aged mice were found to have particularly high risks of life-threatening Th2 immunopathology … in which a faulty T cell response triggers allergic inflammation, and poorly functional antibodies that form immune complexes, activating the complement system and potentially damaging the airways."
_Sources and References


1 International Journal of Clinical Practice, October 28, 2020 DOI: 10.111/ijcp.137952, 22 PNAS.org April 14, 2020 117 (15) 8218-82213 Viral Immunology 2003;16(1):69-864 Science Direct Neutralizing Antibody5 Science Direct Binding Antibody6 Twitter, The Immunologist April 9, 20207 PLOS Pathogens 2017 Aug; 13(8): e10065658, 9 Swiss Medical Weekly April 16, 2020; 150:w2024910 Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications August 22, 2014; 451(2): 208-21411 JCI Insight February 21, 2019 DOI: 10.1172/jci.insight.12315812 PLOS ONE April 2012; 7(4): e35421 (PDF)13 PLOS ONE April 2012; 7(4): e35421 (PDF), page 1114 medRxiv DOI:10.1101/2020.03.30.20047365 (PDF)15 EBioMedicine 2020 May; 55: 10276816 EBioMedicine 2020 May; 55: 102768, Introduction17, 20 Annals of Internal Medicine September 2, 2020 DOI: 10.7326/M20-535218 Bitchute, SARS-CoV-2 and the rise of medical technocracy, Lee Merritt, MD, aprox 8 minutes in (Lie No. 1: Death Risk)19 Technical Report June 2020 DOI: 10.13140/RG.2.24350.7712521 Johns Hopkins September 28, 2021
**

Source:
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...hancement.aspx

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

Informed consent doesn't necessarily have to list every single, possible scenario. On the form, it should say something like "and other non-reported potential complications".

----------


## phoenyx

> Informed consent doesn't necessarily have to list every single, possible scenario. On the form, it should say something like "and other non-reported potential complications".


I took a look at the information sheet that people have to say they've read before getting a Covid vaccine where I used to live, Ontario, Canada:
https://health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/prog...info_sheet.pdf


Pretty much all it says is the ingredients and that you can't get the Astrazeneca vaccine if you've had 3 conditions. Nothing about the amount of people who have possibly or probably died from these vaccines, nothing about all the side effects.

----------

WhoKnows (11-23-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> I took a look at the information sheet that people have to say they've read before getting a Covid vaccine where I used to live, Ontario, Canada:
> https://health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/prog...info_sheet.pdf
> 
> 
> Pretty much all it says is the ingredients and that you can't get the Astrazeneca vaccine if you've had 3 conditions. Nothing about the amount of people who have possibly or probably died from these vaccines, nothing about all the side effects.


Ahhh, got it. Canada is much different than here in the USA as far as that is concerned. One of the reasons I left and will never return.

----------

phoenyx (11-23-2021)

----------


## QuaseMarco

> So, really, what are we protecting against with a COVID-19 vaccine? As mentioned, the vaccines aren't even designed to prevent infection; they're only meant to reduce the severity of symptoms.


This is not how they were sold to a trusting unsuspecting public. They were supposed to be HIGHLY effective in preventing infection.
This claim has morphed as the vaccine has failed.

The possibility that it can actually damage one's immune system is CATASTROPHIC!


The lies and deception.... the coercion...... the subjugation of our freedoms..... the tyranny!

----------

Big Bird (11-23-2021),phoenyx (11-23-2021)

----------


## Traddles

Still posting that snake oil salesman's pig crap?  :Smiley ROFLMAO: 

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:  Why am I (vaxxed with Pfizer) still working, walking in running events like I was pre-Covid (se my signature), and here POing some on TPF and not in bed with serial illnesses?

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:  Why is a Moderna-vaxxed immediate family member who is a preschool teacher able to work with children daily, unhindered by illness since being vaxxed in April?

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:  Why did a Pfizer-vaxxed immediate family member undergo surgery 6 months post-vax without infection?

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:  If Covid vaccine*s* (his use of "the vaccine" demonstrates snake oil salesman Mercola's willful ignorance) "destroy" recipients' immune systems, why weren't the halls and parking lots of the hospital where that surgery was performed not overflowing?

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:  If Covid vaccine*s* "destroy" recipients' immune systems, why are Santa Clara County and Bay Area hospitals not at >>100% capacity? https://data.thecalifornian.com/covi...-county/06085/

 :Smiley ROFLMAO:  If Covid vaccine*s* "destroy" recipients' immune systems, why were major marathon events, such as Berlin, Chicago, and Boston run by their maximum allowed number of runners, why are less well known marathons, half marathons, and runs with 10K and 5K distances "only" running with hundreds or thousand of participants? I _could_ have done a turkey trot last Sunday (https://changeofpace.com/event/davis-turkey-trot-2/ ), a turkey trot on T'giving Day ( Zoom Turkey Trot is closest to me ), and a turkey trot on the Saturday after T'giving ( https://brazenracing.com/quarryturkey ), all in-person events, all with hundreds of participants (runners and walkers). Only the event in Davis did not have a half marathon distance, this year). If Covid vaccine*s* "destroy" recipients' immune systems, how is all this possible? BTW, one local runner who I know is vaxxed ran the Boston Marathon several weeks ago, and has since qualified for the 2022 running at least twice. How is that possible?

Reality disproves snake oil salesman Mercola's claim. At some point in looking at a sty full of pig manure one realizes it would be stupid to dive into it hoping to find a slab of bacon. Mercola's content is a rancid bacon-free sty full of pig manure.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> I took a look at the information sheet that people have to say they've read before getting a Covid vaccine where I used to live, Ontario, Canada:
> https://health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/prog...info_sheet.pdf
> 
> 
> Pretty much all it says is the ingredients and that you can't get the Astrazeneca vaccine if you've had 3 conditions. Nothing about the amount of people who have possibly or probably died from these vaccines, nothing about all the side effects.


Of course, doctors can provide the same information that CDC provides when they administer the vaccine.... right? And thst information includes the following.




> The benefits of COVID-19 vaccination outweigh the known and potential risks. Rare cases of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the outer lining of the heart) in adolescents and young adults have been reported more often after getting the second dose than after the first dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines.


Possible Side Effects After Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine  | CDC

And also 




> If you had a severe allergic reaction—also known as anaphylaxis—after getting a shot of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine (either Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna), CDC recommends that you not get another shot of that vaccine. Learn which COVID-19 vaccines need a second shot.
> 
> A severe allergic reaction can cause a rapid heartbeat, difficulty breathing, swelling of the throat, or a generalized rash or hives. A person with a severe allergic reaction needs to be treated with epinephrine or EpiPen© or they must go to the hospital. Learn about common side effects of COVID-19 vaccines and when to call a doctor.


What to Do if You Had an Allergic Reaction After Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine  | CDC

----------


## phoenyx

> But you are a "doctor", a "physician", right?



When did I ever claim that?

----------


## phoenyx

> Still posting that [insults removed]


This is why we can't have nice things -.- It's pretty much decided that if someone starts a response with insults, it's generally not worth going further.

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## QuaseMarco

*The lies and deception...
*
*VAERS COVID Vaccine Data Show Surge in Reports of Serious Injuries, as 5-Year-Olds Start Getting Shots*

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) released new data today showing a total of 875,653 adverse events following COVID vaccines were reported between Dec. 14, 2020, and Nov. 5, 2021, to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). VAERS is the primary government-funded system for reporting adverse vaccine reactions in the U.S.
The data included a total of 18,461 reports of deaths — an increase of 383 over the previous week, and 135,400 reports of serious injuries, including deaths, during the same time period — up 7,943 compared with the previous week.
Excluding “foreign reports” to VAERS, 643,957 adverse events, including 8,456 deaths and 53,780 serious injuries, were reported in the U.S. between Dec. 14, 2020, and Nov. 5, 2021.


*These numbers are absolutely through the roof and no vaccine in the history of VAERS has had such disastrous deaths and injury. 

Yet they have not pulled the vaccines ... but are doubling and tripling down.*

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2...getting-shots/


*YET THE CDC IGNORES and PUBLISHES PROPAGANDA*

----------

phoenyx (11-23-2021)

----------


## QuaseMarco

> This is why we can't have nice things -.- It's pretty much decided that if someone starts a response with insults, it's generally not worth going further.


This is exactly what the CANCEL CULTURE does to stifle free speech and the free flow of information.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> When did I ever claim that?


My mistake.  You all just look alike to me. I thought you were "the doctor".

----------


## phoenyx

> This is exactly what the CANCEL CULTURE does to stifle free speech and the free flow of information.


The meaning of cancel culture is a bit complicated. As wikipedia states, another term for it is call out culture, and that term "has been in use since 2014 as part of the #MeToo movement.[15]"


Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture


I definitely think there are some good aspects of the metoo movement- not all of it, but certainly some.

However, I rarely find that insulting others in forums makes any sense. Just about the only time I can see insults being useful is if it might help avoid a -physical- altercation, and that's just not possible online. Not that I'm saying that it always helps avoid physical altercations, far from it, but I at least suspect that it might sometimes be useful in this regard.

----------


## phoenyx

> My mistake.  You all just look alike to me. I thought you were "the doctor".


I see. Alright, I'll make another post responding to your previous post that I see you've changed now.

----------


## QuaseMarco

> The meaning of cancel culture is a bit complicated. As wikipedia states, another term for it is call out culture, and that term "has been in use since 2014 as part of the #MeToo movement.[15]"
> 
> 
> Source:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancel_culture
> 
> 
> I definitely think there are some good aspects of the metoo movement- not all of it, but certainly some.
> 
> However, I rarely find that insulting others in forums makes any sense. Just about the only time I can see insults being useful is if it might help avoid a -physical- altercation, and that's just not possible online. Not that I'm saying that it always helps avoid physical altercations, far from it, but I at least suspect that it might sometimes be useful in this regard.


I avoid wikipedia .... they are biased.

 Personally, I no longer use wiki as a reference for _anything_.

For me, the cancel culture applies to those who attempt to shut down free speech.

It can be done in many ways.

Demeaning others, their opinions and their work is one of the tactics they use.

 Cancel culturists can be both leftist or rightists.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> I took a look at the information sheet that people have to say they've read before getting a Covid vaccine where I used to live, Ontario, Canada:
> https://health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/prog...info_sheet.pdf
> Pretty much all it says is the ingredients and that you can't get the Astrazeneca vaccine if you've had 3 conditions. Nothing about the amount of people who have possibly or probably died from these vaccines, nothing about all the side effects.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, doctors can provide the same information that CDC provides when they administer the vaccine.... right?



They could. That doesn't mean they do. You also seem to be assuming that everyone is getting vaccinated by doctors. They're not.





> And that information includes the following.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _The benefits of COVID-19 vaccination outweigh the known and potential risks. Rare cases of myocarditis (inflammation of the heart muscle) and pericarditis (inflammation of the outer lining of the heart) in adolescents and young adults have been reported more often after getting the second dose than after the first dose of either the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines._
> 
> 
> Possible Side Effects After Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine  | CDC



I have seen no solid evidence that that statement is true. 





> And also 
> What to Do if You Had an Allergic Reaction After Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine  | CDC


I certainly agree that it's good to know what to do if you get an allergic reaction after getting a Covid 19 vaccine. But I think it's far more important to know whether it's worth taking the risk of getting one or countless other "side effects", including death.

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## phoenyx

> I avoid wikipedia .... they are biased.





I agree with you. However, I think that on -some- subjects, they're alright. On others, I actually find them good. 




> For me, the cancel culture applies to those who attempt to shut down free speech.





I certainly agree that some examples of what are called cancel culture would fit that description.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> They could. That doesn't mean they do. *You also seem to be assuming that everyone is getting vaccinated by doctors. They're not.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen no solid evidence that that statement is true. 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG.... so only doctors can read? OK... fine . Then ..."the _person_" who provides the vaccination can provide that information.  Big pharma isn't stopping them. The gubmint isn't stopping them. And no one is stopping the person who is getting vaccinated from accessing and reading that information.  


So you will have to rethink that part of your conspiracy theory that says that says adverse reactions are kept secret.

And as far as the extremely rare cases of worse events occuring, even aspirin has rare severe reactions and no one is claiming a big conspiracy.



> Death rate attributed to NSAID/aspirin use was between 21.0 and 24.8 cases/million people, respectively, or 15.3 deaths/100,000 NSAID/aspirin users. Up to one-third of all NSAID/aspirin deaths can be attributed to low-dose aspirin use.


A nationwide study of mortality associated with hospital admission due to severe gastrointestinal events and those associated with nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drug use - PubMed

You are just fearmongering .

----------


## QuaseMarco

This should be noted on the page in the CDC were they discuss the possible adverse reactions and death from Covid-19 injections.

More death and injuries reported than all previous vaccines together !!!



> 875,653 adverse events following COVID vaccines were reported between Dec. 14, 2020, and Nov. 5, 2021, to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). VAERS is the primary government-funded system for reporting adverse vaccine reactions in the U.S.
> The data included a total of 18,461 reports of deaths — an increase of 383 over the previous week, and 135,400 reports of serious injuries, including deaths, during the same time period — up 7,943 compared with the previous week.
> Excluding “foreign reports” to VAERS, 643,957 adverse events, including 8,456 deaths and 53,780 serious injuries, were reported in the U.S. between Dec. 14, 2020, and Nov. 5, 2021.


Yet they don't stop the injections..... they double and triple down.

 This is more than illogical.... it is absolutely demonic.

----------


## Wilson2

@Traddles

The vax doesnt have catastrophic effects on 100% of recipients.  A lot of people have had the vax and are ok so far.

----------


## WhoKnows

> My mistake.  You all just look alike to me. I thought you were "the doctor".


If you are referring to me, again, please use my forum name. As you've been now asked for the third time. 

Also, you seem rather obsessed with me. Seeing me where I'm not. Perhaps stick to the topic of the thread, and don't bring your personal vendetta against me into it. Thanks.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> If you are referring to me, again, please use my forum name. As you've been now asked for the third time. 
> 
> Also, you seem rather obsessed with me. Seeing me where I'm not. Perhaps stick to the topic of the thread, and don't bring your personal vendetta against me into it. Thanks.


I wasn't addressing you.
I'll rattle your cage  when I need you.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> This should be noted on the page in the CDC were they discuss the possible adverse reactions and death from Covid-19 injections.
> 
> More death and injuries reported than all previous vaccines together !!!
> 
> 
> Yet they don't stop the injections..... they double and triple down.
> 
>  This is more than illogical.... it is absolutely demonic.


It's only illogical and demonic to those who cannot comprehend that VAERS is not showing causality.... and that every moronic antivaxer is making VAERS entries for THIS massive vaccination year like they are buying raffle tickets. VAERS was virtually unknown in years prior to the COVID vaccine and its politicization .

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Call_me_Ishmael
> ...


No. Your statement seemed to be assuming that only doctors were providing the vaccinations, I was simply pointing that out.

----------

WhoKnows (11-23-2021)

----------


## Traddles

> @Traddles
> 
> The vax doesnt have catastrophic effects on 100% of recipients.  A lot of people have had the vax and are ok so far.


Tell me about it! As I posted yesterday, almost 19,000 deaths have been _reported_ (not _verified_ as caused by a vaccine) to the VAERS database. As impressive as that sounds - and of course, whether caused by a vaccine or by something else - in the context of 230,732,565 Americans having received at least one vaccine dose, the risk is along the same order as getting out of bed in the morning (or staying in bed all day, probably). Nothing in this world is zero-risk.

As for, "so far," I'm about 6 months post-vax, and there are people in the US and EuroLand who received the Moderna or BioNTech/Pfizer vaccines in April 2020, over a year and a half ago. The clock on the mass-deaths claims is ticking, and the mass deaths are only "happening" in the rectums of anti-Covid-vaxxers like Mercola and RFK Jr.'s "Children's Health Defense" crew.

I call crazies like Mercola and RFK Jr. making ludicrous accusations of mass murder what they are, *CRAZIES*.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> No. Your statement seemed to be assuming that only doctors were providing the vaccinations, I was simply pointing that out.


It had no bearing on my argument that the information is available.  You were just being argumentative.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by QuaseMarco
> 
> 
> This should be noted on the page in the CDC were they discuss the possible adverse reactions and death from Covid-19 injections.
> More death and injuries reported than all previous vaccines together !!!
> 
> Yet they don't stop the injections..... they double and triple down.
> 
>  This is more than illogical.... it is absolutely demonic.
> ...


They're generally not -proving- causality, but there's certainly a lot of evidence that many of the reported adverse events were in fact caused by vaccines. Not that the CDC seems to be doing any investigations themselves. They seem to be content with "monitoring" the hard work of others. They used to claim that they would investigate every death. Apparently, they've taken that down from their website, perhaps after being questioned by Children's Health Defense about their "investigations". Perhaps you've missed the article where CHD questioned them? Just in case, it's here:

64 Days and Counting  Why Wont the CDC Answer Our Questions? | Children's Health Defense

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> No. Your statement seemed to be assuming that only doctors were providing the vaccinations, I was simply pointing that out.
> 
> 
> 
> It had no bearing on my argument that the information is available.  You were just being argumentative.


What good is "available" information if it's not getting to the people who are getting vaccinated?

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> What good is "available" information if it's not getting to the people who are getting vaccinated?


Again you are just being argumentative. The point is that there is no conspiracy to hide the information.

----------


## QuaseMarco

As this global fiasco unfolds.....time will tell the real story.... 
That's why the FDA wants to bury Pfizer information for 55 years .... 

Pro-vaxxers bash their heads on the rocky shore over and over again. 
Believing Big Pharma and Big Government..... they will go down as endorsers and enforcers of tyranny.
It's pitiful that formerly sapient human beings subjugate themselves
 to the utter deception and lies of the deep state and global elite,
 making themselves useful idiots to the murderous agenda of the demons of hell 
who wish to enslave us.

----------

Sunsettommy (11-23-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> I wasn't addressing you.
> I'll rattle your cage  when I need you.


Is that what you intend to do here? Rattle my cage? I thought we were here to discuss these topics civilly. 

Btw, you don't rattle me cage. I couldn't care less about you, or what you say. You aren't that important.

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> They're generally not -proving- causality, but there's *certainly a lot of evidence that many of the reported adverse* events were in fact caused by vaccines. Not that the CDC seems to be doing any investigations themselves. They seem to be content with "monitoring" the hard work of others. They used to claim that they would investigate every death. Apparently, they've taken that down from their website, perhaps after being questioned by Children's Health Defense about their "investigations". Perhaps you've missed the article where CHD questioned them? Just in case, it's here:
> 
> 64 Days and Counting — Why Won’t the CDC Answer Our Questions? | Children's Health Defense


You have no evidence.  You lack the ability to differentiate causality from coincidence.  And you have ignored my generous attempts to show you that coincidence explains much of what you see in VAERS.

----------


## WhoKnows

> You have no evidence.  You lack the ability to differentiate causality from coincidence. * And you have ignored my generous attempts to show you that coincidence explains much of what you see in VAERS.*


Bold mine. You can't show this definitively, either. No real statistical examination of the VAERS data has been done one way or another.

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> Is that what you intend to do here? Rattle my cage? I thought we were here to discuss these topics civilly. 
> 
> Btw, you don't rattle me cage. I couldn't care less about you, or what you say. You aren't that important.


If I want to discuss the topics with a doctor, a physician, or a surgeon - all of which you claim to be - I'll be sure to include " @WhoKnows " in my post.  Then you come runnin' ..OK?

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> What good is "available" information if it's not getting to the people who are getting vaccinated?
> 
> 
> 
> Again you are just being argumentative. The point is that there is no conspiracy to hide the information.


Oh, there's evidence that they are hiding information too. Here's an example:

*Pfizer Whistleblower Sinks Vaccine Trial Integrity | thepoliticsforums.com*

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> Bold mine. You can't show this definitively, either. No real statistical examination of the VAERS data has been done one way or another.


I have shown how to provide a baseline of expected rate of coincidental events.  

A doctor should understand the need for a baseline... right? I mean how do you assess the likelihood that VAERS data is statistically meaningful as a source of causal data unless you have a baseline of expected coincidence?

----------


## WhoKnows

> If I want to discuss the topics with a doctor, a physician, or a surgeon - all of which you claim to be - I'll be sure to include " @WhoKnows " in my post.  Then you come runnin' ..OK?


Nah. I'd rather let you wallow in your ignorance.

----------


## WhoKnows

> I have shown how to provide a baseline of expected rate of coincidental events.  
> 
> A doctor should understand the need for a baseline... right? I mean how do you assess the likelihood that VAERS data is statistically meaningful as a source of causal data unless you have a baseline of expected coincidence?


You clearly don't understand the scientific method, data analysis, and how you can develop and prove a hypothesis using those means. And I'm not going to waste my time explaining to somehow who is just here to rattle cages.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> They're generally not -proving- causality, but there's certainly a lot of evidence that many of the reported adverse events were in fact caused by vaccines. Not that the CDC seems to be doing any investigations themselves. They seem to be content with "monitoring" the hard work of others. They used to claim that they would investigate every death. Apparently, they've taken that down from their website, perhaps after being questioned by Children's Health Defense about their "investigations". Perhaps you've missed the article where CHD questioned them? Just in case, it's here:
> 64 Days and Counting  Why Wont the CDC Answer Our Questions? | Children's Health Defense
> 
> 
> 
> You have no evidence.


I strongly disagree. Not only do I believe there is plenty of evidence that many of the thousands of VAERS death reports were caused by Covid vaccines, I and many others also believe there is strong evidence that the VAERS numbers are a vast underestimate of the total people who have been killed and injured by these vaccines. I just published an article from Mercola.com on Sunday with a lot of said evidence as a matter of fact:
https://thepoliticsforums.com/thread...ry-Mercola-com

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## QuaseMarco

> Is that what you intend to do here? Rattle my cage? I thought we were here to discuss these topics civilly. 
> 
> Btw, you don't rattle me cage. I couldn't care less about you, or what you say. You aren't that important.


He sounds like a predator. I've been on this forum for quite a few years and have never seen a roughshod poster as this last this long.

----------

WhoKnows (11-23-2021)

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> You clearly don't understand the scientific method, data analysis, and how you can develop and prove a hypothesis using those means. And I'm not going to waste my time explaining to somehow who is just here to rattle cages.


The fact that you think a single analysis "proves" anything is telling.  The fact that you think you know my hypothesis is telling.  The fact that you feel the need to put these words like "proof" in my mouth is telling. 

1. A comparison with a baseline may show if coincidence is a viable explanation for the data in VAERS. 

2. A comparison with a baseline may show if coincidence fails to explain the numbers in VAERS, leaving causality as a strong possibility for the excess reported events.

3. A comparison with a baseline may show nothing definitively.

4. A comparison with a baseline is more information than is simply provided by the numbers in VAERS. 


I've described the process for obtaining a first order baseline and have, for a couple of 'adverse event types' calculated that first order estimate.  

In addition to that, I've calculated the ratio of adverse events with the vax and adverse events without the vax EVEN USING THE RAW DATA MY DEBATE OPPONENTS PROVIDE.  But it is apparently beyond the comprehensive of you ( you who called it a fucking "THEORY") and others here.

To vett the fearmongering headlines that you people cut and paste, I've dug deeper and read more beyond your cut and paste fearmongering headlines than anyone else here has demonstrated. 

"Doctor".... my ass.

My contributions to the topic greatly exceed the value of the cut and paste activities that your cult has done. But to delegitimize my vetting of your cut and paste fearmongering, I have been accused of supporting Biden, Fauci, and big pharma and have to just passively accept flame baiting accusations like this:




> He sounds like a predator.

----------


## QuaseMarco

> Doctor.... my ass.


No.................... your head.

----------

WhoKnows (11-23-2021)

----------


## WhoKnows

> The fact that you think a single analysis "proves" anything is telling.  The fact that you think you know my hypothesis is telling.  The fact that you feel the need to put these words like "proof" in my mouth is telling. 
> 
> 1. A comparison with a baseline may show if coincidence is a viable explanation for the data in VAERS. 
> 
> 2. A comparison with a baseline may show if coincidence fails to explain the numbers in VAERS, leaving causality as a strong possibility for the excess reported events.
> 
> 3. A comparison with a baseline may show nothing definitively.
> 
> 4. A comparison with a baseline is more information than is simply provided by the numbers in VAERS. 
> ...


All those words to solidify that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Typical. If you did, it would be clear and concise. Which it's not. People like you talk a big game but have nothing of value to add, so they talk and talk and talk.

I don't have, nor participate in, a "cult". Who are "you people"? Care to specifiy?

Your habit  of insulting anyone and everyone on these forums only shows how incredibly low your self esteem is.

You are kind of stalking me. You know, like a predator. You even see me where I'm not. You're obsession with how you think I'm not a physician is kinda creepy, too. Pathologically so.

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> You are kind of stalking me. You know, like a predator. You even see me where I'm not. You're obsession with how you think I'm not a physician is kinda creepy, too. Pathologically so.


You are kinda flailing.  Anyone can see that you contacted me in this thread first. 

And I do recall some posts from you in the past week or so lamenting that I had you on ignore and was not responding to you.  All this is easily proven. 

Your attempt to use the word "stalk" in order to cast a bad light on someone is not new. We have all seen it used in forums. 

As far as your profession... if an interest in that is a problem, we can go back and look at the dozen times you harassed WR with the demand "WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION!" 

I think you are simply projecting.

Oh... no need to respond. I didn't ask you a question.

----------


## Wilson2

> It's only illogical and demonic to those who cannot comprehend that VAERS is not showing causality.... and that every moronic antivaxer is making VAERS entries for THIS massive vaccination year like they are buying raffle tickets. VAERS was virtually unknown in years prior to the COVID vaccine and its politicization .


No, VAERS was well known in the medical community including pharmacists, public health departments, pharma, and non-medical people with an interest in medications and vaccines.

VAERS is an important tool for identifying adverse and unexpected reactions to medications.   Thats how Zostovax shingles vaccine which passed FDA trials with flying colors was found to be a disaster causing eye problems including blindness at almost the same rate as it reduced susceptibility to shingles.

You have to be authorized to enter data into VAERS, and the data is not anonymous, and it is reviewed.  If a person exaggerates and makes enough false entries the person gets in trouble.

If anything COVID VAX reactions are under reported.   The govt and many medical people have a vested interest in not causing problems for the vax.

Ive mentioned this before but in the 2009 H1N1 flu epidemic the govt rushed a vax and approved it.  It was given to all Navy personnel in Coronado, there were massive numbers of adverse reactions.   Not trivial reactions, it put one third of personnel of squadrons at North Island sick and bedridden, with about 10% in the hospital.   Thats not in VAERS.

Why?   I think its because it would give the govt a black eye instead of a victory over the epidemic so they blocked it from VAERS.

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## Wilson2

> Tell me about it! As I posted yesterday, almost 19,000 deaths have been _reported_ (not _verified_ as caused by a vaccine) to the VAERS database. As impressive as that sounds - and of course, whether caused by a vaccine or by something else - in the context of 230,732,565 Americans having received at least one vaccine dose, the risk is along the same order as getting out of bed in the morning (or staying in bed all day, probably). Nothing in this world is zero-risk.
> 
> As for, "so far," I'm about 6 months post-vax, and there are people in the US and EuroLand who received the Moderna or BioNTech/Pfizer vaccines in April 2020, over a year and a half ago. The clock on the mass-deaths claims is ticking, and the mass deaths are only "happening" in the rectums of anti-Covid-vaxxers like Mercola and RFK Jr.'s "Children's Health Defense" crew.
> 
> I call crazies like Mercola and RFK Jr. making ludicrous accusations of mass murder what they are, *CRAZIES*.


First, its not a simple deaths over people vaxxed ratio.   For smallpox or yellow fever, both very serious diseases its high mortality, 19000 over 230 million is ok.   For covid which has a zero risk for the majority of the population, 19000 deaths is unacceptable.

----------

QuaseMarco (11-23-2021)

----------


## Call_me_Ishmael

> You have to be authorized to enter data into VAERS, and the data is not anonymous, and it is reviewed.  If a person exaggerates and makes enough false entries the person gets in trouble.


Have you read the cdc site?




> Who can report to VAERS
> CDC and FDA encourage anyone who experiences (or is made aware) of an adverse event after vaccination to report it to VAERS, even if they are not sure the vaccine caused the problem:
> 
> *Patients
> Parents/family member
> Caregivers*
> Those who administer vaccines
> Healthcare providers
> Vaccine manufacturers


Reporting Adverse Events to VAERS | Vaccine Safety | CDC

And so I will repeat with clarification.... _aside from the medical community,_ almost no one knew of VAERS a few years ago.


Given that causality is not required for an entry, no one reporting a medical condition that appears after the vax is going to get in trouble making an entry into VAERS.




> No, VAERS was well known in the medical community including pharmacists, public health departments, pharma, and non-medical people with an interest in medications and vaccines.


The general public - including patients, parents, and caregivers, all of whom can make a VAERS entry - have only recently become aware of VAERS, as evidenced by the incredible increase in people searching for information on it. 

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...geo=US&q=Vaers

----------


## Wildrose

> No, VAERS was well known in the medical community including pharmacists, public health departments, pharma, and non-medical people with an interest in medications and vaccines.
> 
> VAERS is an important tool for identifying adverse and unexpected reactions to medications.   That’s how Zostovax shingles vaccine which passed FDA trials with flying colors was found to be a disaster causing eye problems including blindness at almost the same rate as it reduced susceptibility to shingles.
> 
> You have to be authorized to enter data into VAERS, and the data is not anonymous, and it is reviewed.  If a person exaggerates and makes enough false entries the person gets in trouble.
> 
> If anything COVID VAX reactions are under reported.   The govt and many medical people have a vested interest in not causing problems for the vax.
> 
> Ive mentioned this before but in the 2009 H1N1 flu epidemic the govt rushed a vax and approved it.  It was given to all Navy personnel in Coronado, there were massive numbers of adverse reactions.   Not trivial reactions, it put one third of personnel of squadrons at North Island sick and bedridden, with about 10% in the hospital.   Thats not in VAERS.
> ...


I can't of course find any documentation supporting those claims and Zostavax has an extremely good safety record.  Which is why it's still on the market with full approval.


Shingles Zostavax Vaccination | What You Should Know | CDC

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zostavax-side-effects.html

----------


## Wildrose

> Have you read the cdc site?
> 
> 
> Reporting Adverse Events to VAERS | Vaccine Safety | CDC
> 
> And so I will repeat with clarification.... _aside from the medical community,_ almost no one knew of VAERS a few years ago.
> 
> 
> Given that causality is not required for an entry, no one reporting a medical condition that appears after the vax is going to get in trouble making an entry into VAERS.
> ...


It doesn't seem so.  I swear for the life of me that I can't figure out where half this crap comes from.

----------


## Wildrose

> Another good article from Mercola.com...
> 
> **
> Analysis by Dr. Joseph Mercola
> 
> 
> November 23, 2021
> *STORY AT-A-GLANCE*
> 
> ...




Of course, there's no actual evidece supporing his claims but we've grown to expect that.  Whatever he pukes up the anti vaxx nutters swallow whole without so much as thinking of challenging his claims on their own.

----------


## Wilson2

> I can't of course find any documentation supporting those claims and Zostavax has an extremely good safety record.  Which is why it's still on the market with full approval.
> 
> 
> Shingles Zostavax Vaccination | What You Should Know | CDC
> 
> https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zostavax-side-effects.html


Zostovax was approved in 2006.   In 2014 the FDA added a "black box warning" because it causes shingles and chickenpox, the FDA added a second in 2016 because it causes necrotizing retinitis (which leads to blindness).   Both of those issues were discovered partly because of VAERS reporting.

You didnt even read your own CDC link.  It says
"This page was archived upon the discontinuation of the sale and use of Zostavax in the United States, effective November 18, 2020. The information below is for historical record and use only."
"Zostavax is no longer available for use in the United States, as of November 18, 2020."



The CDC Zostovax site does not mention the FDA warnings.   Until the last update to the CDC Zostovax site, the CDC site referened the 2009 Zostovax information statement - the FDA warnings were in 2014 and 2016.  I contacted the CDC about this "lapse" but it was never corrected.  Even the current CDC update does not update medical information, it just states the Zostovax is no longer available.   From the CDC page on Zostovax (that you linked):
"This information was taken directly from the Shingles Vaccine Information Statement (VIS) dated 10/06/2009."

There is research about the Zostovax problem, for example this NIH study
Acute Retinal Necrosis Caused by the Zoster Vaccine Virus 
Acute Retinal Necrosis Caused by the Zoster Vaccine Virus

Merck has paid over $100 Million in Zostovax claims so far, probably more in lawsuits quietly settled with nondisclodure clauses.

In 2017, the CDC and FDA began recommending Shingrix instead of Zostovax.   If you remember before 2017, the CDC ran a huge TV Zostovax campaign and encouraged MD's to influence people over 50 to get the vaccine.   The CDC was heavily invested in Zostovax and pushed it even after teh FDA warnings - the CDC vigorously recommended a vax that they knew caused severe adverse side effects.    I claim thats why the CDC covered up the FDA warnings.

----------


## Wildrose

> Zostovax was approved in 2006.   In 2014 the FDA added a "black box warning" because it causes shingles and chickenpox, the FDA added a second in 2016 because it causes necrotizing retinitis (which leads to blindness).   Both of those issues were discovered partly because of VAERS reporting.
> 
> You didnt even read your own CDC link.  It says
> "This page was archived upon the discontinuation of the sale and use of Zostavax in the United States, effective November 18, 2020. The information below is for historical record and use only."
> "Zostavax is no longer available for use in the United States, as of November 18, 2020."
> 
> 
> 
> The CDC Zostovax site does not mention the FDA warnings.   Until the last update to the CDC Zostovax site, the CDC site referened the 2009 Zostovax information statement - the FDA warnings were in 2016 and 2018.  I contacted the CDC about this "lapse" but it was never corrected.  Even the current CDC update does not update medical information, it just states the Zostovax is no longer available.   From the CDC page on Zostovax (that you linked):
> ...


The FDA site doesn't show such warnings either.

Zostavax | FDA

Especially the 2019 letter in which approval is extended.

https://www.fda.gov/media/120448/download

Zostavax (Herpes Zoster Vaccine) Questions and Answers | FDA

Not the date, 
*Content current as of:*10/19/2018

*Regulated Product(s)*BiologicsVaccines

----------


## Wilson2

> Have you read the cdc site?
> 
> 
> Reporting Adverse Events to VAERS | Vaccine Safety | CDC
> 
> And so I will repeat with clarification.... _aside from the medical community,_ almost no one knew of VAERS a few years ago.
> 
> 
> Given that causality is not required for an entry, no one reporting a medical condition that appears after the vax is going to get in trouble making an entry into VAERS.
> ...


You can submit to VAERS, that does not mean it gets into the system.  If you don't have any medical tests, lab results, and a health care professional to back the report, its not going far.   Even if it gets into the system, when the data is examined if the medical tests, lab results, health care reference blocks are not checked it gets ignored as unreliable.

Read the VAERS incident reporting form, its all written as if an MD is filling it out.

Think about government doctors and bureaucrats, do you think they believe what a mere patient claims?

----------


## Wildrose

> You can submit to VAERS, that does not mean it gets into the system.  If you don't have any medical tests, lab results, and a health care professional to back the report, its not going far.   Even if it gets into the system, when the data is examined if the medical tests, lab results, health care reference blocks are not checked it gets ignored as unreliable.
> 
> Read the VAERS incident reporting form, its all written as if an MD is filling it out.
> 
> Think about government doctors and bureaucrats, do you think they believe what a mere patient claims?


Every report of serious or fatal outcomes has to be investigated.  The problem is, it appears they are getting a massive amount of fraudulent reports.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Every report of serious or fatal outcomes has to be investigated.  The problem is, it appears they are getting a massive amount of fraudulent reports.


How do they they are fraudulent if they aren't being investigated?

----------


## Wildrose

> How do they they are fraudulent if they aren't being investigated?


We know they are being investigated including you since I provided you the actual numbers straight from CDC's site a few days ago.


They could not have made those determinations without investigating could they?

----------


## WhoKnows

> We know they are being investigated including you since I provided you the actual numbers straight from CDC's site a few days ago.
> 
> 
> They could not have made those determinations without investigating could they?


It's from the CDC. They make up numbers all the time. Based on the many articles I've posted on these forums in the past. Even before COVID. 

I don't trust anything coming out of the CDC. You do. Congratulations.

----------


## Wildrose

> It's from the CDC. They make up numbers all the time. Based on the many articles I've posted on these forums in the past. Even before COVID. 
> 
> I don't trust anything coming out of the CDC. You do. Congratulations.


So all you haver to support your unqualified opinion is even more unqualified opinion.   :Smiley ROFLMAO:

----------


## WhoKnows

> So all you haver to support your unqualified opinion is even more unqualified opinion.


I have posted numerous articles showing how the CDC manipulates data. 

Thanks for your input. I'll let others here make up their own minds.

----------


## Wildrose

> I have posted numerous articles showing how the CDC manipulates data. 
> 
> Thanks for your input. I'll let others here make up their own minds.


When you can show the current numbers they are putting out as to confirmed cases of severe, critical, and fatal reactions to the vaccines by all means do so.

Until then you have nothing but your own unqualified opinion which is obviously severely biased.

----------


## WhoKnows

> When you can show the current numbers they are putting out as to confirmed cases of severe, critical, and fatal reactions to the vaccines by all means do so.
> 
> Until then you have nothing but your own unqualified opinion which is obviously severely biased.


Thank you for your input. I've presented the data many times. I'll let the others here read the articles and come to their own conclusions.

----------


## Wildrose

> Thank you for your input. I've presented the data many times. I'll let the others here read the articles and come to their own conclusions.


You've done nothing of the kind at least not here.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Another good article from Mercola.com...
> 
> **
> Analysis by Dr. Joseph Mercola
> 
> 
> ...


The article from Mercola.com has 21 links. You have 0. I think most people can figure out who is bringing no evidence to support their claims here.

----------


## Wildrose

> The article from Mercola.com has 21 links. You have 0. I think most people can figure out who is bringing no evidence to support their claims here.


He didn't provide any actual evidence with any of those citations.

All the research shows you are less likely to get infected, less likely to be hospitalized, and less likely to die of covid if you are vaccinated.

You know this because I've provided the citations for you many times.

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/0...se-long-covid/

Science Brief: COVID-19 Vaccines and Vaccination

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/r...to-be-infected

COVID-19 Vaccination and NonâCOVID-19 Mortality Risk â Seven Integrated Health Care Organizations, United States, December 14, 2020âJuly 31, 2021  | MMWR

CDC Now Reports COVID Cases and Deaths by Vax Status | MedPage Today

https://www.cnet.com/health/99-of-co...e-experts-say/

Almost All U.S. COVID-19 Deaths Now in the Unvaccinated

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> The article from Mercola.com has 21 links. You have 0. I think most people can figure out who is bringing no evidence to support their claims here.
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't provide any actual evidence with any of those citations.


I strongly disagree.

----------


## Wildrose

> I strongly disagree.


Of course you do.  Facts are not your friend.

----------


## phoenyx

> Of course you do.  Facts are not your friend.


Here's a fact for you- the Mercola.com article in the opening post cited 19 linked articles to support 21 points in said article. You didn't refute a single point made. And no, putting up 7 links of your own doesn't refute anything. Refuting something requires a lot more than just putting up a few links.

----------


## Wildrose

> Here's a fact for you- the Mercola.com article in the opening post cited 19 linked articles to support 21 points in said article. You didn't refute a single point made. And no, putting up 7 links of your own doesn't refute anything. Refuting something requires a lot more than just putting up a few links.


He's pedaling repackaged crap from other nutters so yes, the actual facts refute his claims completely.

----------


## phoenyx

> Originally Posted by phoenyx
> 
> 
> Here's a fact for you- the Mercola.com article in the opening post cited 19 linked articles to support 21 points in said article. You didn't refute a single point made. And no, putting up 7 links of your own doesn't refute anything. Refuting something requires a lot more than just putting up a few links.
> 
> 
> 
> He's [insults removed]


It can be so very hard to have a serious conversation with you, with your penchant to insult first and have any serious dialogue later, if you have it at all.

----------


## Wildrose

> It can be so very hard to have a serious conversation with you, with your penchant to insult first and have any serious dialogue later, if you have it at all.


It's utterly impossible to have a serious dialogue with those like yourself that prefer fantasy to reality.

----------


## WhoKnows

> It's utterly impossible to have a serious dialogue with those like yourself that prefer fantasy to reality.


So why do you? 

It seems like you butt heads with a lot of people on these forums. And eventually tell all of us that you butt heads with, how you can't have a serious dialogue with any of us. Or that we're childish. Or stupid. Or any other flavor of the month insult that makes you feel better about yourself. If you know this about some of us, why do you keep trying? 

And you have to have the last word about just about everything. You can't help yourself.

----------


## Wildrose

> So why do you? 
> 
> It seems like you butt heads with a lot of people on these forums. And eventually tell all of us that you butt heads with, how you can't have a serious dialogue with any of us. Or that we're childish. Or stupid. Or any other flavor of the month insult that makes you feel better about yourself. If you know this about some of us, why do you keep trying? 
> 
> And you have to have the last word about just about everything. You can't help yourself.


Then be your better self.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Then be your better self.


WTF are you talking about? 

You think others should conform to YOU so YOU can talk them? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA...nice try. That's actually quite scary. And incredibly arrogant.

----------


## Wildrose

> WTF are you talking about? 
> 
> You think others should conform to YOU so YOU can talk them? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA...nice try. That's actually quite scary. And incredibly arrogant.


Best have that conversation with the person looking back at you in the mirror.

----------


## WhoKnows

> Best have that conversation with the person looking back at you in the mirror.


 :Smiley ROFLMAO:

----------

