# Politics and News > SOCIETY & humanities >  Why do atheists hate Christians in the USA?

## Victory

I'm a (no shit) Catholic living in Colorado, and I don't understand who are those atheists [are] in reality. I had a talk with my  friends, and they_ know exactly what I'm talking about_. I've noticed posts about the _atheists_ dislike towards _Christians_ all of the time--*bitching about "shoving" a belief system down peoples' throats*, and I just want to understand your point of view. Is being an _Christian_ in America really that _evil?_

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## garyo

IMO, atheists are entitled to their opinion, no one is entitled to hate, I'm a conservative, non religious, I believe in God but do not practice. To some it up atheist are like the Gay Mafia, always in your face.

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## NaturalBorn

There are Christians and there are christians [sic]. Christians (capital C) try to be Christ like in their daily lives, although we are sinners and flawed just like anyone else, but we do take the example of not only being light onto the world but also salt.  That is we will share our faith when opportunity presents itself (for the good of the listener) but we know all we can do is lead the horse to water.

Then there are the christians (little c), they may warm a pew weakly [sic] on Sunday, but come Monday it is difficult to tell them from "the goats".  If these christians were ever arrested for their faith and put on trial, they would likely be acquitted due to lack of evidence.

As Christians, we are to admonish in love other believers (maybe those that only profess to believe too).  Who could object about another person who treats them with brotherly love (phillia) and respect?  It seems the issue here, on these type of spiritual discussions on these forums is, the unbeliever will at times express a false show of offense, in an attempt to silence any truthful response (if that is the case) from their opponent.  The fact is, sin is fun, in the short run, and their acceptance of the Truth, "cramps their style".

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East of the Beast (05-12-2015),Sheldonna (05-13-2015),Victory (05-12-2015)

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## Victory

> I'm a (no shit) Catholic living in Colorado, and I don't understand who are those atheists [are] in reality. I had a talk with my  friends, and they_ know exactly what I'm talking about_. I've noticed posts about the _atheists_ dislike towards _Christians_ all of the time--*bitching about "shoving" a belief system down peoples' throats*, and I just want to understand your point of view. Is being an _Christian_ in America really that _evil?_

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NaturalBorn (05-12-2015)

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## Roadmaster

Dawkins got owned a lot just like Darwin. Most atheist use the excuse they hate us because someone came to their house. I have shut the door to the same people but I don't hate them and it's not like it happens a lot. They don't like me anyway because I know His word. But what maybe 6 times since I was born. I did have one Methodist preacher come only because I attended one Sunday and I invited him in for supper. You don't see that often anymore and I was glad he stopped by. But going back to atheist, they don't like us because of His word. So they will have to keep hating me.

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## Katzndogz

It's fear.  Atheists know that God always wins.  Always.   All of human history is a running total with all the success on God's side.  People want to be God.  On some level even the most ardent atheist recognizes that when God wins He is no respector of persons and the results are catastrophic.   That scares athiests so they pretend it won't happen, can't happen.

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## Victory

> It's fear.  Atheists know that God always wins.  Always.   All of human history is a running total with all the success on God's side.  People want to be God.  On some level even the most ardent atheist recognizes that when God wins He is no respector of persons and the results are catastrophic.   That scares athiests so they pretend it won't happen, can't happen.


I have suspected something like this.

There is a nagging truth buried deep inside.  And it constantly reminds the atheist that he is wrong.  But pride wins and he rebels against the Voice.

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## Roadmaster

Fear yes, many are afraid of death or just anything they can't control. When things are good they credit themselves, when something goes wrong to them or others, the one they don't believe in is at fault. They lash out at Him then like He is the reason for all their problems. Just like one of my cousins on my moms side. He didn't believe but when his mom fell ill, He lashed out at God. How can you be mad at someone you don't believe in.

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## headlet

> I'm a (no shit) Catholic living in Colorado, and I don't understand who are those atheists [are] in reality. I had a talk with my  friends, and they_ know exactly what I'm talking about_. I've noticed posts about the _atheists_ dislike towards _Christians_ all of the time--*bitching about "shoving" a belief system down peoples' throats*, and I just want to understand your point of view. Is being an _Christian_ in America really that _evil?_


A lot of people feel as though they got the rough end of the stick with Christianity.

A lot of Christians are really judgemental and busybody.  And now days with interest drifting back towards so called "christianity" a lot of people are getting more obnoxious.  

I was brought up christian too, but I don't need it to tell me what's right and wrong.

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## RMNIXON

I do find that Atheists have a very bizarre obsession with their point of view. Many to a point where their own behavior can be compared to the religious fanatic.

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## headlet

> I do find that Atheists have a very bizarre obsession with their point of view. Many to a point where their own behavior can be compared to the religious fanatic.


An atheist won't bother but an Atheist with a capitial A most certainly is religious.

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Subdermal (05-13-2015)

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## FirstGenCanadian

> An atheist won't bother but an Atheist with a capitial A most certainly is religious.


So there are sub-cultures to Atheism?  Do you by chance work for Cracker Jack?

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## Subdermal

> So there are sub-cultures to Atheism?  Do you by chance work for Cracker Jack?


I think headlet's point is valid.  There are people who simply do not believe in God, but go on living their lives without feigning affront to the religious expressions of those who do, and there are others - Atheists - whose hatred of these expressions motivates them to defeat belief in God in our lives.

If you - or he - wants to call that a 'sub-culture', I don't really see the problem.

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headlet (05-13-2015),Jeff0463 (05-13-2015)

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## Jeff0463

> An atheist won't bother but an Atheist with a capitial A most certainly is religious.


A religion usually has one or more supreme beings or gods, where I don't see that being the case with atheism.  Perhaps the atheist relies on self
confidence and the luck of  the draw for guidance?


The three Abrahamic religions hold promise of a hereafter, which means a lot to many people, but I assume the atheist does not envision a hereafter.


Another trait or upside of religion is the forgiveness of sins.   I once read that some of the ancient Judaic believers went bonkers for fear of dying in sin and being doomed in the hereafter because they had no way to be forgiven as mortal beings.  Jesus fixed that problem with his promise of salvation.

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## NaturalBorn

The Supreme Court of the U.S. has called atheism a religion, in part it has a belief system which it's adherents are adamant of it's doctrine, even militant. They all seem to follow the prophet Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins is their high priest.

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## Jeff0463

> The Supreme Court of the U.S. has called atheism a religion, in part it has a belief system which it's adherents are adamant of it's doctrine, even militant. They all seem to follow the prophet Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins is their high priest.


I'll buy the point you have made about it being a belief system.  I wasn't aware that there was any substantial doctrine.  

I used to visit a web site, years ago, called infidels.com, and it was interesting to see different points of view on atheism.  
Some of the participant really had it together where others couldn't find their ass with both hands, which brings up a reason for people practicing religion.   They don't have the time or the desire to satisfy all their questions about life so they
look to their religion for answers.

Can one associate atheism with relativism, which I call living by Texas Rules?

How about situational ethics, does that relate to atheism?

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## Victory

> A lot of Christians are really judgemental and busybody.


A lot of atheists are too.  The difference is Christians are not dragging atheists into church or passing laws to forbid lack of church attendance.  On the other hand, atheists are fighting to rewrite history and deny the intimate connection the Constitution has with religious tradition:

1. Moses was the first separator of church and state.  The 1st Book of Samuel details God's distain for human kings and warns his people against appointing them.  In Chronicles God strikes down Uzziah the king for assuming priestly responsibilities.  Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's but give to God what is God's" further separating church and state.

2. In support of the 2nd Amendment we have in Proverbs ""A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well."  so stand up against the evil doer individually rather than faltering by waiting for the cops.  In 1st Samuel we see God urging His people to arm themselves individually rather than let the Philistines disarm and oppress them.

3. In my own sig, Paul subtly urges people to rebel against Caesar if Caesar goes against the law of God.  Edit:  (Hey, where'd my sig go?)

4. The whole "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" is also a suggestion for limited government that governments have historically ignored in droves.  Charity is God's.  How many times in history has government assumed the responsibility of God by demanding charity at gunpoint via taxes?

Many more examples abound.

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## NaturalBorn

> I'll buy the point you have made about it being a belief system.  I wasn't aware that there was any substantial doctrine.  
> 
> I used to visit a web site, years ago, called infidels.com (I think?) and it was interesting to see different points of view on atheism.  
> 
> Can one associate atheism with relativism, which I call living by Texas Rules?
> 
> How about situational ethics, does that relate to atheism?



I am not the person to ask about the belief system(s) of atheists. There are some fairly common beliefs among atheists and differences, as with any religious belief system.

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## QuaseMarco

*This premise is false: Why do atheists hate Christians in the USA?

*Most atheist probably don't give a flying you know what.

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## Katzndogz

Atheists hate Christians because they cannot stop Christians from being Christians.   They cannot prevent cross necklaces.  They haven't made Christmas trees illegal.  Saying God Bless You is still not hate speech.

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Victory (05-13-2015)

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## Victory

> A religion usually has one or more supreme beings or gods, where I don't see that being the case with atheism.  Perhaps the atheist relies on self
> confidence and the luck of  the draw for guidance?
> 
> 
> The three Abrahamic religions hold promise of a hereafter, which means a lot to many people, but I assume the atheist does not envision a hereafter.
> 
> 
> Another trait or upside of religion is the forgiveness of sins.   I once read that some of the ancient Judaic believers went bonkers for fear of dying in sin and being doomed in the hereafter because they had no way to be forgiven as mortal beings.  Jesus fixed that problem with his promise of salvation.


The atheist believes in logic.  But faith (and love for that matter) demand something more than logic.  Because love demands more than logic should in no way mean that the same demand should be a deal breaker for faith in God.  Atheists all over the world "believe" in love (they believe in logic too.  Philosophers like Derrida would assert we DON'T have to believe in logic).  So belief in God shouldn't be that big of a leap to make.

And "A"theists are the ones who grab the headlines so they get the attention.

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## Sheldonna

> I'm a (no shit) Catholic living in Colorado, and I don't understand who are those atheists [are] in reality. I had a talk with my  friends, and they_ know exactly what I'm talking about_. I've noticed posts about the _atheists_ dislike towards _Christians_ all of the time--*bitching about "shoving" a belief system down peoples' throats*, and I just want to understand your point of view. Is being an _Christian_ in America really that _evil?_


I got news for em (athiests).  It's not the Christians that are nagging at them constantly.  It's a combination of their own guilty conscience (which they've been trying to murder for most of their lives)....and God.

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Hansel (05-13-2015),Subdermal (05-13-2015),Victory (05-13-2015)

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## Subdermal

> *This premise is false: Why do atheists hate Christians in the USA?
> 
> *Most atheist probably don't give a flying you know what.


I could not disagree more.  In my experience, most atheists definitely do care.  Consider the root premise: atheism would not exist were it not for belief in God.

By definition, that means that they _do_ care.  They wouldn't have arrived at ANY conclusion (they're called 'agnostics') if they didn't give a flying fock.

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## Katzndogz

> Fear yes, many are afraid of death or just anything they can't control. When things are good they credit themselves, when something goes wrong to them or others, the one they don't believe in is at fault. They lash out at Him then like He is the reason for all their problems. Just like one of my cousins on my moms side. He didn't believe but when his mom fell ill, He lashed out at God. How can you be mad at someone you don't believe in.


Most of the time atheists claim a failure of prayer as a basis for atheism.  They prayed that someone would live, and they died.   This means God doesn't exist.  Of course that's nonsense.  God never promised immortality. 

I would never say this to someone personally.  But I am not at all sure that God's  idea of death is the same as our idea of death.   It's probably my mother's influence.   She made up religion as she went along.  To her death was nothing more than going from one room to another.

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## Victory

> I got news for em (athiests).  It's not the Christians that are nagging at them constantly.  It's a combination of their own guilty conscience (which they've been trying to murder for most of their lives)....and God.


Yep.  That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say:




> There is a nagging truth buried deep inside.  And it constantly reminds the atheist that he is wrong.  But pride wins and he rebels against the Voice.

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Sheldonna (05-13-2015)

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## Corruptbuddha

Your premise is flawed.

As I said in the other thread.  Atheists don't hate Christians.  

They don't understand them, and feel (a bit) sorry for them...but that's not hate.

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## Toefoot

Some Atheist forums can get very vicious. 





> Your premise is flawed.
> 
> As I said in the other thread.  Atheists don't hate Christians.  
> 
> They don't understand them, and feel (a bit) sorry for them...but that's not hate.

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## Sheldonna

> Yep.  That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say:


Great minds think alike and all that....heh.

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Victory (05-14-2015)

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## Hansel

> I could not disagree more.  In my experience, most atheists definitely do care.  Consider the root premise: atheism would not exist were it not for belief in God.
> 
> By definition, that means that they _do_ care.  They wouldn't have arrived at ANY conclusion (they're called 'agnostics') if they didn't give a flying fock.


I can see where they might be sensitive and vindictive due to criticism  they have received from believers. In that respect they care about their self image but may not be empathetic to believers. That just makes for a difficult and unpleasant life IMO.  Why not live and let live?

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## Victory

> Your premise is flawed.
> 
> As I said in the other thread.  Atheists don't hate Christians.  
> 
> They don't understand them, and feel (a bit) sorry for them...but that's not hate.


Corruptbuddah meet Madalyn Murray O'Hair.  Madalyn meet Corruptbuddah.




That's hate.

Have you met Richard Dawkins yet?

The "*A*"theists grab the headlines, so the "*A*"theists get the attention.

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## Canadianeye

> A lot of atheists are too.  *The difference is Christians are not dragging atheists into church* or passing laws to forbid lack of church attendance.  On the other hand, atheists are fighting to rewrite history and deny the intimate connection the Constitution has with religious tradition:
> 
> 1. Moses was the first separator of church and state.  The 1st Book of Samuel details God's distain for human kings and warns his people against appointing them.  In Chronicles God strikes down Uzziah the king for assuming priestly responsibilities.  Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's but give to God what is God's" further separating church and state.
> 
> 2. In support of the 2nd Amendment we have in Proverbs ""A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well."  so stand up against the evil doer individually rather than faltering by waiting for the cops.  In 1st Samuel we see God urging His people to arm themselves individually rather than let the Philistines disarm and oppress them.
> 
> 3. In my own sig, Paul subtly urges people to rebel against Caesar if Caesar goes against the law of God.  Edit:  (Hey, where'd my sig go?)
> 
> 4. The whole "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" is also a suggestion for limited government that governments have historically ignored in droves.  Charity is God's.  How many times in history has government assumed the responsibility of God by demanding charity at gunpoint via taxes?
> ...


Atheist churches started out of England...and are everywhere now, across the planet, IINM.

Christians are not dragging atheists to churches. Atheists are gathering in atheist churches, without any dragging I guess.

What a weird planet.

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## Canadianeye

> I'm a (no shit) Catholic living in Colorado, and I don't understand who are those atheists [are] in reality. I had a talk with my  friends, and they_ know exactly what I'm talking about_. I've noticed posts about the _atheists_ dislike towards _Christians_ all of the time--*bitching about "shoving" a belief system down peoples' throats*, and I just want to understand your point of view. Is being an _Christian_ in America really that _evil?_


I would think it has a lot to do with the leftist domination and victories in our societies, via the technique of gradualism.

Conservatives, largely made up of Christians, lose every battle to the left...from gays in the military, then gay marriage, evolution taught in schools, school curriculum itself with a massively heavy handed leftism/modern liberalism, removing the 10 commandments from schools, no lords prayer, on and on, etc.

So atheists who are becoming militant, (and are largely made up of leftist modern liberals)...and it is just one more fight they are winning.

And that hurts Christians even more than all the other losses suffered over the last 4 decades or so, which would produce an awful lot of anger and resentment towards those activist atheists who increasingly get more militant each passing year it seems.

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## Corruptbuddha

> Corruptbuddah meet Madalyn Murray O'Hair.  Madalyn meet Corruptbuddah.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's hate.
> 
> Have you met Richard Dawkins yet?
> 
> The "*A*"theists grab the headlines, so the "*A*"theists get the attention.



Aren't both of these people dead?

And none of them are posting here.  And yet, I've seen hatred declared for Atheists here on this board by professed Christians.

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## Subdermal

> I can see where they might be sensitive and vindictive due to criticism  they have received from believers. In that respect they care about their self image but may not be empathetic to believers. That just makes for a difficult and unpleasant life IMO.  Why not live and let live?


Certainly - but that notion ends the minute that one side tries to subject the other side to restrictions.

I think it is the Atheist side which is guilty of that - and that's natural, because Atheism is a negative - a reactionary - belief, and Christianity is a positive belief.  Atheism exists solely as a reaction to Deism.

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## Subdermal

> Aren't both of these people dead?
> 
> And none of them are posting here.  And yet, I've seen hatred declared for Atheists here on this board by professed Christians.


Link?

I believe that Christians can profess hatred of Atheist agendas and activity, but that's not the same thing you're asserting.

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## Victory

> Aren't both of these people dead?


No.  But they both are modern.  Their pulse is irrelevant.




> And none of them are posting here.


But again that's irrelevant.  We post all the time about people and things that go on outside the forum.

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## Victory

> Most of the time atheists claim a failure of prayer as a basis for atheism.  They prayed that someone would live, and they died.   This means God doesn't exist.  Of course that's nonsense.  God never promised immortality. 
> 
> I would never say this to someone personally.  But I am not at all sure that God's  idea of death is the same as our idea of death.   It's probably my mother's influence.   She made up religion as she went along.  To her death was nothing more than going from one room to another.


Wow!  Really cool!

And you're exactly right about the "failure of prayer" premise.  Another related example is:  How can there be a God with all the suffering in the world?  You'd think that a "loving" God would end all the starvation, torture, oppression, and evil in the world.  I see massive evil world therefore there is no God.

But this is easily dispatched too.  The appropriate response to this conclusion is:  But what have _I_ done to reduce this evil?  Suffering in others is an opportunity for us.  It's an opportunity to be Christ-like, to progress closer to God, and to build a better world.  Observing suffering in the world should spur us into action not motivate us to throw in the towel, collapse in failure, and wallow in the evil of the world.

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NaturalBorn (05-17-2015),Rutabaga (05-17-2015)

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## Jeff0463

> Atheist churches started out of England...and are everywhere now, across the planet, IINM.
> 
> Christians are not dragging atheists to churches. Atheists are gathering in atheist churches, without any dragging I guess.
> 
> What a weird planet.


An athiest church?

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## Jeff0463

> Wow!  Really cool!
> 
> And you're exactly right about the "failure of prayer" premise.  Another related example is:  How can there be a God with all the suffering in the world?  You'd think that a "loving" God would end all the starvation, torture, oppression, and evil in the world.  I see massive evil world therefore there is no God.
> 
> But this is easily dispatched too.  The appropriate response to this conclusion is:  But what have _I_ done to reduce this evil?  Suffering in others is an opportunity for us.  It's an opportunity to be Christ-like, to progress closer to God, and to build a better world.  Observing suffering in the world should spur us into action not motivate us to throw in the towel, collapse in failure, and wallow in the evil of the world.


I think that some people may expect too much from their religion. The church I attend is part of a service oriented sect and the pastors usually speak of Jesus but not so much about God Almighty. We do recite the Lord's prayer and most people do not view Christ and God as being one and the same person, physically speaking.  

I hadn't given much thought as to WHY God exists until now, and all I can add on the spur of the moment is that most religions have a supreme being, a god.  In fact, some faiths have  more than one supreme being.  In modern times we have to answer to the state for our behavior but way back  then there may not have been formal governmental bodies, only despots. Since these ruthless beings were all powerful in the mortal sense  perhaps people came to reason that in time that sucker would answer to a god for his behavior, an untouchable power that he could not conquer or kill. 

I know it is an odd question, but why do some of you think God exists? In other words, WHY does God exist?  Could there be an effective religion without a God or supreme being?

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## gamewell45

> .  The fact is, sin is fun, in the short run, and their acceptance of the Truth, "cramps their style".


Aka "cafeteria style" christians.

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NaturalBorn (05-17-2015)

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## NaturalBorn

> Aka "cafeteria style" christians.


  :Geez: 

Or a Chinese restaurant menu style Christian.

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gamewell45 (05-17-2015)

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## sotmfs

> The Supreme Court of the U.S. has called atheism a religion, in part it has a belief system which it's adherents are adamant of it's doctrine, even militant. They all seem to follow the prophet Charles Darwin and Richard Dawkins is their high priest.


I do not follow anyone.

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## sotmfs

> Atheists hate Christians because they cannot stop Christians from being Christians.   They cannot prevent cross necklaces.  They haven't made Christmas trees illegal.  Saying God Bless You is still not hate speech.


Really?I have never put any thought into or effort into trying to stop christians from being christian.Cross necklaces are not a big deal.Christmas trees are no big deal,I know they go way back in christian culture.Nothing wrong with god bless you.
I do not have to force anyone to change their religion in order to be comfortable with being an atheist.

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## sotmfs

> I got news for em (athiests).  It's not the Christians that are nagging at them constantly.  It's a combination of their own guilty conscience (which they've been trying to murder for most of their lives)....and God.


Thanks for letting me know.Not only are some christians experts on their religion,they also are experts on atheism.
I never thought I was being nagged by christians.Why would I have a guilty conscience?God does not have any impact on how I live my life.
I do not care if someone believes in god or doesn't.I do not try to convince them at all.

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## sotmfs

> I could not disagree more.  In my experience, most atheists definitely do care.  Consider the root premise: atheism would not exist were it not for belief in God.
> 
> By definition, that means that they _do_ care.  They wouldn't have arrived at ANY conclusion (they're called 'agnostics') if they didn't give a flying fock.


So if god was known to be absolutely non-existent atheism would not exist?
There has to be a god for atheism to exist?Atheism is proof of god?

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## sotmfs

> Most of the time atheists claim a failure of prayer as a basis for atheism.  They prayed that someone would live, and they died.   This means God doesn't exist.  Of course that's nonsense.  God never promised immortality. 
> 
> I would never say this to someone personally.  But I am not at all sure that God's  idea of death is the same as our idea of death.   It's probably my mother's influence.   She made up religion as she went along.  To her death was nothing more than going from one room to another.


That is it.The person died,god,if in existence would not have let that happen!!But then again the person is in a better place.So there is a god.Wait a minute I prayed for the patriots to win a game a few years ago.It did not happen.There is no god.

Atheists are very ignorant and shallow people,as their being an atheist obviously proves!!

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## sotmfs

> Yep.  That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say:


Yes,I know I am wrong.I just want attention.The problem is I have two children and I should think of them!!I am embarrassing them.I should deny I am an atheist.It is wrong!! LOL!

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## sotmfs

> Some Atheist forums can get very vicious.


As vicious as the original AWE?

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## sotmfs

> Atheist churches started out of England...and are everywhere now, across the planet, IINM.
> 
> Christians are not dragging atheists to churches. Atheists are gathering in atheist churches, without any dragging I guess.
> 
> What a weird planet.


Sounds weird to me.

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## sotmfs

> Certainly - but that notion ends the minute that one side tries to subject the other side to restrictions.
> 
> I think it is the Atheist side which is guilty of that - and that's natural, because Atheism is a negative - a reactionary - belief, and Christianity is a positive belief.  Atheism exists solely as a reaction to Deism.


Really?I do not believe in god because of Deism?Again the christian expert on atheists knows why we are atheists.Great,because I had no clue!!

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## Subdermal

> So if god was known to be absolutely non-existent atheism would not exist?


I'm not sure if I can leave it to you to tell yourself what logical fallacy you committed in that question, but I will certainly tell you that it makes illegitimate the question.




> There has to be a god for atheism to exist?


...uh, no.  There has to be belief in God for Atheism to exist.  What's so hard to understand about that?




> Atheism is proof of god?


...uh, no.  Atheism is proof of _belief_ in God.

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## sotmfs

> Wow!  Really cool!
> 
> And you're exactly right about the "failure of prayer" premise.  Another related example is:  How can there be a God with all the suffering in the world?  You'd think that a "loving" God would end all the starvation, torture, oppression, and evil in the world.  I see massive evil world therefore there is no God.
> 
> But this is easily dispatched too.  The appropriate response to this conclusion is:  But what have _I_ done to reduce this evil?  Suffering in others is an opportunity for us.  It's an opportunity to be Christ-like, to progress closer to God, and to build a better world.  Observing suffering in the world should spur us into action not motivate us to throw in the towel, collapse in failure, and wallow in the evil of the world.


Yes i am an atheist because of all the suffering in the world.

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## Subdermal

> Yes i am an atheist because of all the suffering in the world.


Because you refuse to believe that a God can exist because He allows suffering is a logically indefensible reason to justify your faith.  There are myriad logical reasons to allow suffering.  Can you not wrap your mind around that?

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## sotmfs

Can you tell me?I'm not sure if I can leave it to you to tell yourself what logical  fallacy you committed in that question, but I will certainly tell you  that it makes illegitimate the question.

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## sotmfs

> Because you refuse to believe that a God can exist because He allows suffering is a logically indefensible reason to justify your faith.  There are myriad logical reasons to allow suffering.  Can you not wrap your mind around that?


I was not serious.I was stating what a non-atheist claimed atheists use to deny god.

The universe is an amazing wonderful place that is so infinite and complex that I could not begin to explain how and why it exists.I believe it has no emotion.No good or evil.
I cannot believe that some god has the intellect and power to create and control it.A god that converses with Pat Robertson and others.
One that has the emotions of a human.

Nothing deep ,just the way it is.

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## sotmfs

My daughter,when she was around 12 years old would stay at a friends house on some saturdays.She told me the father would try and convince her to go to church with them on Sunday morning.He would talk religion with her to  often.I said to her"do you want to go to church with them? Go if you want to"
She did not want to.
Well My daughter is and was familiar with christianity,many in our family are christians.
I had no problem with it.

I am willing to bet that if I talked about atheism to his daughter when she was at my house,there would hhave been a big issue.

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## sotmfs

People can pray in school ,no one is telling them they can't.

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## sotmfs

Jehovah's Witnesses come to my house and I always am very polite and invite them in.I treat them with respect,but they do not want to hear me,they only want me to listen to them.

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## sotmfs

I do not think about whether there is a god or there is not.I am busy living my life ,trying to survive and helping those I can.

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## Victory

> I was not serious.I was stating what a non-atheist claimed atheists use to deny god.


Many atheists use exactly that excuse.  Do you deny that?

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## sotmfs

> Many atheists use exactly that excuse.  Do you deny that?


It is a lame excuse,if one needs an excuse to not believe in god.I can't confirm or deny it.

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## Subdermal

> Can you tell me?I'm not sure if I can leave it to you to tell yourself what logical  fallacy you committed in that question, but I will certainly tell you  that it makes illegitimate the question.


Don't try to be clever.  Parroting what I said isn't clever.

The fallacy was circular reasoning.  I was hoping you would have come up with that alone.

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## Subdermal

> I was not serious.I was stating what a non-atheist claimed atheists use to deny god.


You said "I am an atheist because".   The reader takes from that an assumption that you're telling us what you honestly feel.  If you cannot be honest, don't post. 




> The universe is an amazing wonderful place that is so infinite and complex that I could not begin to explain how and why it exists.


Ground-breaking statement.  




> I believe it has no emotion.No good or evil.


So you cannot begin to explain it by beginning to explain it?




> I cannot believe that some god has the intellect and power to create and control it.


Of course you cannot believe it.  That's why you're an Atheist.  You can see that something infinite and complex exists, but you don't see a way for it to have been created, because you're projecting the capabilities of yourself (or man in general) upon the notion of God - or a god - which is silliness, since the definition of God requires the exact infinite and complex power that you already acknowledges exists.

Odd, really.




> A god that converses with Pat Robertson and others.


Perhaps it's the reverse.  




> One that has the emotions of a human.


How do you know?  You are now professing to explain the nature of something you do not believe exists?

That's the trait of a psychopath you know.




> Nothing deep ,just the way it is.


I agree with that statement.  Your statement is nothing deep, and that is the way it is.

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NaturalBorn (05-17-2015)

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## Subdermal

> People can pray in school ,no one is telling them they can't.


Seriously.  Crack open a search engine, at least.

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Victory (05-17-2015)

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## Corruptbuddha

> Because you refuse to believe that a God can exist because He allows suffering is a logically indefensible reason to justify your faith.  _There are myriad logical reasons to allow suffering_.  Can you not wrap your mind around that?



Such as?

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## Corruptbuddha

> Link?
> 
> I believe that Christians can profess hatred of Atheist agendas and activity, but that's not the same thing you're asserting.



Look up at what...the third reply?  You see the one that says....I Despise Atheists....yeah...that one.

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## Corruptbuddha

> No.  But they both are modern.  Their pulse is irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> But again that's irrelevant.  We post all the time about people and things that go on outside the forum.



But I wasn't.  I was specifically speaking of the hate in this thread alone.

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## Victory

> It is a lame excuse,if one needs an excuse to not believe in god.I can't confirm or deny it.


You've never heard of people using that excuse?  I know Corruptbuddah has trouble imagining the purpose of suffering.  Maybe it's not so lame of an excuse.

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## Subdermal

> Such as?


 You're not going to accept it anyway, are you?

God Himself provides the answer: for the same reason that He allowed _Jesus_ to suffer.

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## Subdermal

> There are Christians and there are christians [sic]. Christians (capital C) try to be Christ like in their daily lives, although we are sinners and flawed just like anyone else, but we do take the example of not only being light onto the world but also salt.  That is we will share our faith when opportunity presents itself (for the good of the listener) but we know all we can do is lead the horse to water.
> 
> Then there are the christians (little c), they may warm a pew weakly [sic] on Sunday, but come Monday it is difficult to tell them from "the goats".  If these christians were ever arrested for their faith and put on trial, they would likely be acquitted due to lack of evidence.
> 
> As Christians, we are to admonish in love other believers (maybe those that only profess to believe too).  Who could object about another person who treats them with brotherly love (phillia) and respect?  It seems the issue here, on these type of spiritual discussions on these forums is, the unbeliever will at times express a false show of offense, in an attempt to silence any truthful response (if that is the case) from their opponent.  The fact is, sin is fun, in the short run, and their acceptance of the Truth, "cramps their style".





> Look up at what...the third reply?  You see the one that says....I Despise Atheists....yeah...that one.


The above is the 3rd reply.

Please look harder to find a sword upon which to fall.

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## NaturalBorn

> The above is the 3rd reply.
> 
> Please look harder to find a sword upon which to fall.



Now what did I do?  Will I need a lawyer?

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Subdermal (05-17-2015)

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## Victory

> I cannot believe that some god has the intellect and power to create and control it.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you believe in the Big Bang Theory (full disclosure here:  I'm a Catholic and I believe in the Big Bang Theory.  Evolution too.)

So I find it sort of a contradiction for you to believe the universe just "popped" into existence with no impetus, no reason, no intention, no cause before the effect--it just "happened"-- and yet you find it impossible to believe the "cause" is that it was deliberately created by a being more powerful than humans.  

What makes more sense?  Effect without cause, or conscious deliberate creation by an intelligent being?  Which one are you more familiar with in your everyday life?

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Subdermal (05-17-2015)

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## NaturalBorn

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you believe in the Big Bang Theory (full disclosure here:  I'm a Catholic and I believe in the Big Bang Theory.  Evolution too.)
> 
> So I find it sort of a contradiction for you to believe the universe just "popped" into existence with no cause before the effect, no impetus, no reason, no intention and yet you find it impossible to believe the "cause" is that it was deliberately created by a being more powerful than humans.  
> 
> What makes more sense?  Effect without cause, or conscious deliberate creation by an intelligent being?  Which one are you more familiar with in your everyday life?


What other beliefs do you have that you think Jesus lied about?

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## Katzndogz

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you believe in the Big Bang Theory (full disclosure here:  I'm a Catholic and I believe in the Big Bang Theory.  Evolution too.)
> 
> So I find it sort of a contradiction for you to believe the universe just "popped" into existence with no impetus, no reason, no intention, no cause before the effect--it just "happened"-- and yet you find it impossible to believe the "cause" is that it was deliberately created by a being more powerful than humans.  
> 
> What makes more sense?  Effect without cause, or conscious deliberate creation by an intelligent being?  Which one are you more familiar with in your everyday life?


You would have to disagree with the vast majority of scientists.   Very few, and no reputable scientists believe in continuous creation.

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## Subdermal

> What other beliefs do you have that you think Jesus lied about?


Can you clarify this?  I'm not sure I see a lie.

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## Subdermal

> You would have to disagree with the vast majority of scientists.   Very few, and no reputable scientists believe in continuous creation.


I'm not sure I understand this answer either.

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## Victory

> What other beliefs do you have that you think Jesus lied about?


No lies my friend.  Whether the six "days" in which God created the earth and the heavens are six "twenty four hour periods" or whether they are metaphorical the context is the same.  Contextual truth is important.  I think Jesus would agree since he took the ten commandments and rolled them up into only two.  Again, the context is the same.

You and I have more in common than we have differences.  Let's celebrate what we know together instead of magnifying and picking at the differences.  God loves our differences and individuality and doesn't want us to all be like one another like bricks in a wall.

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usfan (05-17-2015)

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## Katzndogz

There are two scientific theories of the creation of the universe.  The big bang and continuous creation.  That theory is that the universe has always been and is continually created.  It is not widely accepted.

The reason why continuous creation is not widely accepted is because the objects in the universe, from star systems to nebula are moving away from each other at a constant speed.  These objects can be tracked back where they get closer and closer.  That leads to the conclusion that if the trajectories were followed back to the point of origin, it would be one mass.

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## Adam Larsen

Atheism is not about hate. Its about not deluding yourself that gods exist. Religion is responsible for most of the hatred and violence throughout history. The narrative that atheists are haters is designed to take the spotlight off the true guilty parties. 
Leave the hating the "other" to the theists please. You get used to hate somebody.

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## Victory

> There are two scientific theories of the creation of the universe.  The big bang and continuous creation.  That theory is that the universe has always been and is continually created.  It is not widely accepted.
> 
> The reason why continuous creation is not widely accepted is because the objects in the universe, from star systems to nebula are moving away from each other at a constant speed.  These objects can be tracked back where they get closer and closer.  That leads to the conclusion that if the trajectories were followed back to the point of origin, it would be one mass.


Well. . .I _am_ a Big Bang theory guy due to the Hubble Shift.  So. . .I'm not sure why you pegged me as a continuous creation guy.

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## Victory

> Atheism is not about hate. Its about not deluding yourself that gods exist. *Religion is responsible for most of the hatred and violence throughout history.* The narrative that atheists are haters is designed to take the spotlight off the true guilty parties. 
> Leave the hating the "other" to the theists please. You get used to hate somebody.


You mean like the secular "Great Leap Forward" resulting in the deaths of 80 million Chinese?  Or Pol Pot's Killing Fields?  Those atheist good will projects?

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Subdermal (05-18-2015),usfan (05-17-2015)

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## NaturalBorn

> You would have to disagree with the vast majority of scientists.   Very few, and no reputable scientists believe in continuous creation.



WoW! You sound like a liberal defending Obama's policies, "vast majority", "no reputable".  Of course you are 100% wrong with your liberal opinion, and since when are scientific facts made by consensus?  Consider all the scientific hoaxes from your camp in the past 50 - 100 years, all the while the Genesis account has survived for 6,000 years.

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## NaturalBorn

> Can you clarify this?  I'm not sure I see a lie.


Where in the Bible does Jesus refer to "the big bang" or "evolution"?  Where in the Bible does Jesus mention Creation in six days, and sin before death?  You can't mix man's word with God's Word and create your own religion.

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## NaturalBorn

> There are two scientific theories of the creation of the universe.  The big bang and continuous creation.  That theory is that the universe has always been and is continually created.  It is not widely accepted.
> 
> The reason why continuous creation is not widely accepted is because the objects in the universe, from star systems to nebula are moving away from each other at a constant speed.  These objects can be tracked back where they get closer and closer.  That leads to the conclusion that if the trajectories were followed back to the point of origin, it would be one mass.



".. and God spread out the Heavens.."  No conflict there.  I still do not know what "continuous" creation means.  Creation happened once, as the Genesis account tells us, in six literal days, nothing continuous, not written as allegory.

All scientific discovery and laws refutes big bang and evolution, but some continue to believe it as fact.  That is your right in America, protected by the First Amendment, to believe whatever religious beliefs you wish.

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## NaturalBorn

> Atheism is not about hate. Its about not deluding yourself that gods exist. Religion is responsible for most of the hatred and violence throughout history. The narrative that atheists are haters is designed to take the spotlight off the true guilty parties. 
> Leave the hating the "other" to the theists please. You get used to hate somebody.


Of course, you agree with Obama that the 1,100 year old Crusades were offensive in nature not defensive and thus were an example of Christian hatred and murder.

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## sotmfs

> You said "I am an atheist because".   The reader takes from that an assumption that you're telling us what you honestly feel.  If you cannot be honest, don't post. 
> You are a real intellectual!
> 
> 
> Ground-breaking statement.  
> 
> 
> 
> So you cannot begin to explain it by beginning to explain it?
> ...

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## sotmfs

> Seriously.  Crack open a search engine, at least.


I can walk into any school in America and pray.
What I can't do is make you stop any activity you are doing and force you to listen!

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## sotmfs

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you believe in the Big Bang Theory (full disclosure here:  I'm a Catholic and I believe in the Big Bang Theory.  Evolution too.)
> 
> So I find it sort of a contradiction for you to believe the universe just "popped" into existence with no impetus, no reason, no intention, no cause before the effect--it just "happened"-- and yet you find it impossible to believe the "cause" is that it was deliberately created by a being more powerful than humans.  
> 
> What makes more sense?  Effect without cause, or conscious deliberate creation by an intelligent being?  Which one are you more familiar with in your everyday life?


I do not have a clue how the universe started nor where it came from.

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## Victory

> I do not have a clue how the universe started nor where it came from.


Oh bullshit!  Don't give me that.

You've never heard of the Big Bang?  Never heard of any other competing theories?  No "clue" on how it all started?  No opinion on the matter?

You make yourself sound extremely incurious and disengaged from some of the most intensely defining issues of humanity.

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## NaturalBorn

> Oh bullshit!  Don't give me that.
> 
> You've never heard of the Big Bang?  Never heard of any other competing theories?  No "clue" on how it all started?  No opinion on the matter?
> 
> You make yourself sound extremely incurious and disengaged from some of the most intensely defining issues of humanity.


Maybe the conundrum is what was it that went bang?

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## sotmfs

> Oh bullshit!  Don't give me that.
> 
> You've never heard of the Big Bang?  Never heard of any other competing theories?  No "clue" on how it all started?  No opinion on the matter?
> 
> You make yourself sound extremely incurious and disengaged from some of the most intensely defining issues of humanity.


OK  OK Yes I know!! But I promised I would not tell.Now I am in big trouble!!

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## Victory

> OK  OK Yes I know!! But I promised I would not tell.Now I am in big trouble!!


 :Moron:  :Jackoff: 

You gonna engage or hide?  You're not that clever.

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Subdermal (05-18-2015)

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## Victory

> But I wasn't.  I was specifically speaking of the hate in this thread alone.


This thread and this forum are a microcosm of the world out there.

How am I supposed to know you suddenly veered off course?  Just engage.  Stand your beliefs up.

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Subdermal (05-18-2015)

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## sotmfs

> You gonna engage or hide?  You're not that clever.


I know I am not clever enough to engage or hide!! Can you offer a third option you believe I could do?

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## Victory

> Where in the Bible does Jesus refer to "the big bang" or "evolution"?  Where in the Bible does Jesus mention Creation in six days, and sin before death?  You can't mix man's word with God's Word and create your own religion.


Where in the bible does Jesus refer to Quantum Mechanics or nuclear power?

The bible was never meant to be a text book on science.  Intelligence and science march on well outside the scope of the bible (that's not blasphemous.  The bible is not a lot of things:  It's not a cook book.  It's not a text on Keyensian economics, or an owner's manual for a Ford F150).  Having said that, the bible IS the alpha and omega of _wisdom_ and touches every aspect of our lives from economics to F150s.

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Subdermal (05-18-2015)

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## Victory

> I know I am not clever enough to engage or hide!! Can you offer a third option you believe I could do?


Oh!  How 'bout a FOURTH option!?  I'll bet you're clever enough to skip over the third one and go right to the fourth!  What say you give it the ol' college try, Sporto?

You have no clue, right?  You're so in awe of the majesty of the universe you go drooling catatonic when you contemplate the artistic beauty and majesty of a lesser form of beauty like that of the L.A. Beast, right?




It's like watching Shakespeare and Einstein combined!  Oh now, who can possibly have a clue where that kind of video artistry and beauty comes from?  It's like asking what my face looked like before I was born!

Oh yes sotmfs.  You're right!  How can ANYBODY have a clue about how the universe came about?  It's just such a deep question!

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Subdermal (05-18-2015)

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## NaturalBorn

> Where in the bible does Jesus refer to Quantum Mechanics or nuclear power?
> 
> The bible was never meant to be a text book on science.  Intelligence and science march on well outside the scope of the bible (that's not blasphemous.  The bible is not a lot of things:  It's not a cook book.  It's not a text on Keyensian economics, or an owner's manual for a Ford F150).  Having said that, the bible IS the alpha and omega of _wisdom_ and touches every aspect of our lives from economics to F150s.



Yours is a Strawman argument.  We weer discussing your belief in evolution and/or the big bang, while claiming that is how God created the universe.  But you have no evidence of these suppositions, if fact evolutionists have no evidence to support their blind-faith either.

My Bible says all was Created in six days and Adam was the first human, about 6,000 years ago.

BTW, if you have a F-150 service manual, it is best if you keep it in the truck.  You never know...

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