User Tag List

Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 31 to 36 of 36

Thread: Battle Hymn of the Republic

  1. #31
    The Last Free American V.I.P Achievements:
    SocialTagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryVeteranOverdrive
    Overall activity: 15.0%

    usfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Sedona, Az
    Posts
    12,151
    Thanks
    13,865
    Thanked: 8,566
    Blog Entries
    8
    Rep Power
    21474854
    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    I can see that this is one we're always going to be at odds with.

    ...

    The South would have resisted; but it could have been held out as a condition of allowing trade or re-admittance to the Union.
    Thanks for the reasoned reply, JPT. Our responses are getting pretty long!

    I look for evidence, for any interpretation and analysis of history. I question my sources, ESPECIALLY if they present a summary conclusion explaining why something happened.

    Southern revisionism has been a popular view since the war started 150 yrs ago. Northern sugar coating has too.

    Our debate here seems to be over my rebuttal of this point, in the OP:

    2. The South seceded for freedom! The civil war was not about slavery
    .

    I have not seen any evidence to refute this point. Tariffs were NOT the reason. That is a bogus, absurd revision of history. 5 yrs back, I addressed this same point here:
    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    Of course. This is the balanced view. The title of the thread is to stimulate discussion, & provide a basis for our opinions, rather than some kind of fuzzy worship or bigotry with no rationale.

    I consider lincoln to be one of the great presidents in american history. He was not a statist tyrant, & his actions in a war of rebellion are no different than any president's actions in any war to protect the nation.
    The central argument against lincoln seems to be a tariff. This is also a simplistic view of the cause of war. Tariffs were very common in those days, by all governments. The tripolitan wars that Jefferson waged were basically over tariffs, or tribute. This was with a non existent army, a fledgling navy & a new branch of service: The marines. Our resident marines are probably humming, 'to the shores of tripoli', even now. Back then, if you wanted to do business, you paid the piper. ALL govts extorted money from wealthy traders. The traders saw it as part of doing business, & paid the tribute, tariff, or whatever other 'fee' that came up.

    I am not arguing any morality or right or wrong of tariffs, just laying the foundation for the current climate of the day.

    Washington had the first tariff.. 1789. 'Protection for infant industries', was how it was described & justified. In essence, it was to 'protect' the 'new' industries in america, & allow them to compete (with cheaper finished goods) with european imports. This was the very beginning of the industrial revolution, & the us was primarily an exporter of raw materials. Cotton & tobacco were significant exports. We imported finished goods.. manufactured items, from europe. That is the reasoning behind it, & the motivations for tariffs.

    The north was beginning to manufacture more, & liked the protectionism. The south, in general, was an exporter of raw materials, & the import tariffs raised the price of the european finished goods. There were also the claims, as now, of artificial lowered prices.. subsidized exports. Britain did this, like china does now. The american manufacturers were seeking a level playing field. The south was not as affected by manufactured goods tariffs, & feared european reprisals, making their goods harder to export.

    Here's a simplified timeline of tariffs:
    1824- 30% on products like glass, lead, iron and wool
    1828- 'tariff of abominations' over 60% on some items!
    1861- 26%, after a period of declining protectionism.. a raise. Under Buchanan.
    Civil war- fluctuated, up as much as 40% during the war.

    Tariffs were down, historically right before the war. During the war, they were raised to pay for the war. Tariffs then was the major source of revenue for the federal govt. There was no income tax. I would also like to point out a significant factor: In the early years of american presidency, vetoes were primarily for questionable items of constitutionality. A president did not wield veto power like he does today.. it was not as much of a tool of negotiation back then. If the congress passed a law or bill, the president almost always signed it. John Adams & Jefferson had NO vetoes. Madison, Jackson, & Tyler had 5, 5, & 6, respectively. Lincoln continued that tradition, with 2. It was not until later that the presidential veto was employed as a policy tool.

    The point of this is that congress had more power, then, & made policy. Tariffs were passed by congress. A president only rubber stamped them.. sometimes without approval.

    Here is a table of tariff rates in us history:



    Now, were tariffs a significant factor in the civil war? Of course. They were argued & debated for years before & since. Since the 1940's we have been in a time of declining global protectionism. Free trade is promoted. But just because we are used to free trade practices now, should not make us condemn what was commonplace in other times. Were they THE Central Reason for the civil war? Of course not. There were many factors, & slavery was a major one. There were radical anti slavery people, then, & everyone knew about it. It was a point of contention in the nation. John Brown & bleeding kansas are clear references to the times.

    Now look at the body of lincoln's work. His writings & speeches were along the same line of individual freedom & limited govt as the founders.

    Ok, this is too long already. I'll stop.
    My premise is that the civil war was PRIMARILY about slavery. This song provides evidence for that. There is NO EVIDENCE that tariffs were a significant factor, and Lincoln was not opposed for his views on tariffs, but slavery.

    I had to relearn most of what I know now, about the civil war. For some strange reason, the popular media, entertainment, and academia love the Southern revisionist view, even though they hate southerners.

    Now, whether the preservation of the union was a good thing, and whether American Liberty can work with a large central govt, is another debate.

    The parallels between the civil war and now is also a fascinating study of the repetition of history.

    But to the point, here, I have seen no evidence to conclude the civil war was PRIMARILY about anything but slavery. I am a son of the south. But I never owned slaves, or supported the practice. I can follow the evolution of ideology, and the thread of freedom interwoven in the tapestry of history. Slavery was and is an inhuman practice of man's corruption. It is still practiced now, in many areas of the world. I can oppose the concept of slavery, without condemning my ancestors or southern heritage.

    This is way too long, but it is mostly quotes..
    Last edited by usfan; 03-11-2018 at 09:06 AM.
    I have been wrong in the past, am likely wrong now, and will no doubt be wrong in the future. Tell me something i don't know..

  2. #32
    The Last Free American V.I.P Achievements:
    SocialTagger Second Class50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryVeteranOverdrive
    Overall activity: 15.0%

    usfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Sedona, Az
    Posts
    12,151
    Thanks
    13,865
    Thanked: 8,566
    Blog Entries
    8
    Rep Power
    21474854
    Quote Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
    Why don't you A) quit lying, or B) move to the Religion forum? Your bullshit no more belongs in history than does a Holocaust deniers nonsense.
    I have been wrong in the past, am likely wrong now, and will no doubt be wrong in the future. Tell me something i don't know..

  3. #33
    V.I.P. V.I.P Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsTagger Second ClassCreated Blog entryVeteran
    Overall activity: 18.0%

    JMWinPR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    3,938
    Thanks
    5,950
    Thanked: 2,743
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    9690392
    Any ideas for the Battle Hymn of the Democrat?

  4. #34
    Games People Play V.I.P Achievements:
    OverdriveSocial50000 Experience PointsTagger Second ClassVeteranCreated Blog entry
    Awards:
    Activity Award
    Overall activity: 99.9%

    JustPassinThru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    New California
    Posts
    47,814
    Thanks
    9,392
    Thanked: 32,487
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474889
    The Internationale.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to JustPassinThru For This Useful Post:

    JMWinPR (03-11-2018)

  6. #35
    Games People Play V.I.P Achievements:
    OverdriveSocial50000 Experience PointsTagger Second ClassVeteranCreated Blog entry
    Awards:
    Activity Award
    Overall activity: 99.9%

    JustPassinThru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    New California
    Posts
    47,814
    Thanks
    9,392
    Thanked: 32,487
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474889
    Quote Originally Posted by JMWinPR View Post
    Any ideas for the Battle Hymn of the Democrat?

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to JustPassinThru For This Useful Post:

    usfan (03-11-2018)

  8. #36
    V.I.P. V.I.P Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryTagger First Class3 months registeredSocial
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Pork Chop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    SE Asia
    Posts
    1,933
    Thanks
    472
    Thanked: 2,203
    Blog Entries
    3
    Rep Power
    20483014
    Yep, itís this one




    "Verbal waterboarding" - Stimulating the cerebral cortex and producing prolonged periods of mirth. Chop. P, Chops Encyclopedia of Knowledge, 2018, TPF Edition.

    My Blog: "Change My World"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •