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Thread: Existence: What is the point?

  1. #221
    The Last Free American V.I.P
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    Usfan...
    You have well pointed out that the existence of a God cannot be proven or disproven, so if there is any point of debating the issue, the debate can only address which position is more LIKELY? Just because we can't PROVE either position does not necessarily mean the likelihood of either are equal. It seems to me the theistic position has a more obvious problem right off the starting line. That is, that so much of religious catch phrases about the existence of God seem like EXCUSES, like the one you mentioned above. Those who believe in God have to make excuses for why the existence of this God is NOT so obvious that there should be no debate. Point being, that anyone could make up a belief in anything that may not really exist and explain that apparent non-existence as due to the fact that imaginary whatever, "hides itself/himself". In fact, he would pretty much HAVE to say that. Again, I'm not saying it CAN'T be true that there is a God who for some reason "hides", but it SOUNDS suspiciously like an excuse? The atheist doesn't have to supply a suspicious sounding explanation for NOT believing, as he just does not see enough reason TO believe. We need to ask the even more elementary question - if there is a God, who created us for a reason, why are we even DEBATING the issue? Shouldn't it be more evident?
    1. How do you calculate probability... odds.. for a binary possibility with no data? IF.. you have NO EMPIRICAL evidence, how can you say, 'my side is more likely!'? Is that not just a biased assertion?
    2. My conclusion, 'If there is a God, He has hidden himself so as to remain a mystery'.. or so it seems.. is a reasonable extrapolation, based on the evidence. We are here. Naturalism cannot explain the origins of life & the universe, so a supernatural explanation is very plausible. AND, if there is a supernatural explanation for origins, then this Entity seems to have shrouded Himself in mystery. He is not evident, by empirical human methodology. If you want to call that an 'excuse,' fine. But then the same charge can be given to you for blindly believing in a naturalistic 'cause' for all things. You have no explanation as to HOW, or WHY, or by what methodology we are here. You BELIEVE in naturalism, but have no evidence.. it is just a belief.
    3. Why should it 'be more evident?' We are debating reality, not what we think the universe should be. The reality is, God has shrouded Himself in mystery, if there is a God. That seems to be plainly evident. We do not know, but can only speculate WHY God might do this. Perhaps some are given a glimpse into the Divine Knowledge Base.. perhaps nobody knows. It is beyond empirical debate & inquiry to find this out.
    4. What is your 'excuse' for believing in 'no god'? indoctrination? Peer pressure? You certainly can't claim empirical evidence, because as we have already established, there is none. You believe in 'no god', because the alternative, 'God', seems far fetched? WE are far fetched. Life is a mystery. The universe is impossible. This discussion is absurd & impossible, as the concepts fill our abstract mental capacities. You toss the ingredients of the universe together.. stir them for eternity, sprawl them over infinite space, and somehow all this made a planet with the very limited conditions for life? and then life, which we cannot really explain, started spontaneously, & evolved? When we cannot observe or repeat this phenomenon, yet believe it to have happened? Far fetched is right. Any imagined explanation for the universe is far fetched.. with or without supernatural entities in the mix.

    But if it makes you feel superior, or more rational, by all means, dismiss theists as making 'excuses' for their beliefs about the origins of life & the universe.
    ..gone and forgotten..

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  3. #222
    The Last Free American V.I.P
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    This is an existential thread, with a dark view of man and the universe. Hobbes is more relevant here, so i should close with him:

    Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short. ~Thomas Hobbes
    ..gone and forgotten..

  4. #223
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    How do you calculate probability... odds.. for a binary possibility with no data? IF.. you have NO EMPIRICAL evidence, how can you say, 'my side is more likely!'? Is that not just a biased assertion?
    You mean like arguments on the probability of molecules forming without having been designed?

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