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Thread: Standing Debate Challange

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiomatic View Post
    I want someone to debate me on the necessity of the state. If the state is necessary, and obviously so, it should be easy to show the same to be true, right? If you believe that, you have a clear advantage, and there should be no good reason to decline the opportunity to show everyone how stupid the voluntarist is for believing the state to be unnecessary.
    The Trotskyites here don't find a need to debate. The truth shifts according to what they need it to be.
    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.
    -Albert Camus

    Away for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinnity View Post
    Stop the trolling.
    And,yet, that's what it is usually about. Controlling some group of undesirables. It's never the ruling class, and those who support the current regime who need to be controlled. It's those "other guys."
    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.
    -Albert Camus

    Away for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    No government, no law enforcement.

    No law.
    If there's no law, how can government be lawfully formed? I guess it's whichever mob takes over.


    And the Big, Bad Government, when it's doing what governments must do, stamps out crime and allows honest enterprises, like honest people, to prosper.
    When has government ever stamped out crime? It is not in the interest of government to be rid of crime. Then it wouldn't be needed. It gains more power and influence by declaring more things to be crimes, thereby getting more of your money and your devotion when it protects you from some new class of criminal.
    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.
    -Albert Camus

    Away for a while.

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    I've debated this ad nauseum, but will go again. The 'state' can be many things.. totalitarian, pure collective, & an experimental one by the people. In it's rawest form, it is just a collective activity to accomplish a goal. If some tribes band together to defeat a common foe, that is a collective action. If some towns pool their resources to build a bridge so commerce & transportation is easier, that is a collective action.

    In the american experiment, the state is a servant of the people, restrained by law, & charged with securing everyone's rights. It is equipped for the common defense, providing justice, & regulating interstate & international commerce. That is the traditional american view. It has become perverted, & the mission statement has been set aside for state centered, micromanaging, nanny state control.

    But the bigger question that many anarchist/libertarian/voluntarists ignore is the IMPOSSIBILITY of human existence without collective actions. Someone will always form an alliance or cartel & take charge. We cannot live in a power vacuum. So it is best for THE PEOPLE to take control, rather than trust benevolent despots to care for us.

    There is not a choice of 'state or no state', but only 'what level of collective activity can we the people control'? It has gotten out of hand, & has grown. We need to limit it, & retake the reins of govt. It will likely not be a pretty action, as wresting power from power mongers never is. But if we are to remain a govt of, by, & for the people, that is our only option, & it requires constant vigilance.

    But if we passively hope for benign rulers, all we have to look forward to is despotism.. whether they carry a collectivist flag, or an anarchist one. Your anarchist proponents would seize the power & use it for selfish reasons as much as any socialist dreamer.

    Liberty and power are in eternal enmity. Liberty is defensive and power is offensive. Power is an armed aggressor. Liberty stands empty-handed, in need of unselfish champions at all times. Power is alluring and inspires both fear and worldly reverence... Those who rise to power, and in power ride rough-shod over the rights of men, seem always to stand in marble on our public squares while those who carry the torch of liberty rest in unmarked graves. ~R. Carter Pittman

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    Alright, how about this?



    Three turns for each side

    A turn is one post limited by the per-post character limit.

    Each response is due within 24 hours of the posting time of the opposition's last post.

    I'll PM you each time before I post, so you know when my response coming up. You do the same before you post each time.



    The resolution is:

    A society is better off with a centralized government with a monopoly on law and the legal use of force than without one.


    The one affirming the resolution goes first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    I've debated this ad nauseum, but will go again. The 'state' can be many things.. totalitarian, pure collective, & an experimental one by the people. In it's rawest form, it is just a collective activity to accomplish a goal. If some tribes band together to defeat a common foe, that is a collective action. If some towns pool their resources to build a bridge so commerce & transportation is easier, that is a collective action.
    A state is an organization with a monopoly on the legal use of force. A homeowners association is a collective and a governing body, but it is not a state.

    But the bigger question that many anarchist/libertarian/voluntarists ignore is the IMPOSSIBILITY of human existence without collective actions. Someone will always form an alliance or cartel & take charge. We cannot live in a power vacuum. So it is best for THE PEOPLE to take control, rather than trust benevolent despots to care for us.
    You may feel that you debate this ad nauseum, but all you debate is a strawman of your own creation. No one here has ever suggested that "collective action" must go away. In fact, quite the opposition, as the very nature of voluntary cooperation is collective action.
    The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.
    -Albert Camus

    Away for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiomatic View Post
    Alright, how about this?



    Three turns for each side

    A turn is one post limited by the per-post character limit.

    Each response is due within 24 hours of the posting time of the opposition's last post.

    I'll PM you each time before I post, so you know when my response coming up. You do the same before you post each time.



    The resolution is:

    A society is better off with a centralized government with a monopoly on law and the legal use of force than without one.


    The one affirming the resolution goes first.
    That is way too restrictive and short for a good internet debate. Now, that you've posted a resolution, we can make our arguments and you can post your counter-arguments/rebuttals with both sides questioning each others points and asking for specific proof of said points. The best way to cut through the chaff of the voluntarist's abstract Utopia is to question how it would work in the real world, since it is nothing more than fantasy.
    Last edited by DonGlock26; 04-23-2014 at 09:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axiomatic View Post
    Alright, how about this?


    ...

    The resolution is:

    A society is better off with a centralized government with a monopoly on law and the legal use of force than without one.


    The one affirming the resolution goes first.
    Yup.

    Only one side is a valid viewpoint.

    The "other side" is just reasserting its beliefs.

    Have fun...

  11. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    I've debated this ad nauseum, but will go again. The 'state' can be many things.. totalitarian, pure collective, & an experimental one by the people. In it's rawest form, it is just a collective activity to accomplish a goal. If some tribes band together to defeat a common foe, that is a collective action. If some towns pool their resources to build a bridge so commerce & transportation is easier, that is a collective action.

    In the american experiment, the state is a servant of the people, restrained by law, & charged with securing everyone's rights. It is equipped for the common defense, providing justice, & regulating interstate & international commerce. That is the traditional american view. It has become perverted, & the mission statement has been set aside for state centered, micromanaging, nanny state control.

    But the bigger question that many anarchist/libertarian/voluntarists ignore is the IMPOSSIBILITY of human existence without collective actions. Someone will always form an alliance or cartel & take charge. We cannot live in a power vacuum. So it is best for THE PEOPLE to take control, rather than trust benevolent despots to care for us.

    There is not a choice of 'state or no state', but only 'what level of collective activity can we the people control'? It has gotten out of hand, & has grown. We need to limit it, & retake the reins of govt. It will likely not be a pretty action, as wresting power from power mongers never is. But if we are to remain a govt of, by, & for the people, that is our only option, & it requires constant vigilance.

    But if we passively hope for benign rulers, all we have to look forward to is despotism.. whether they carry a collectivist flag, or an anarchist one. Your anarchist proponents would seize the power & use it for selfish reasons as much as any socialist dreamer.

    Liberty and power are in eternal enmity. Liberty is defensive and power is offensive. Power is an armed aggressor. Liberty stands empty-handed, in need of unselfish champions at all times. Power is alluring and inspires both fear and worldly reverence... Those who rise to power, and in power ride rough-shod over the rights of men, seem always to stand in marble on our public squares while those who carry the torch of liberty rest in unmarked graves. ~R. Carter Pittman
    Well said, but I would argue that such control is but an illusion. I think that the power we think we have over our leaders and the power they think they have over us is both an illusion. After all, Obama is correctly identified as an empty suit.

    The main battle is within each of us to choose right from wrong. As morality wanes or increases within society, powers beyond our comprehension grab hold of us and mold and shape us according to our morality.

    Therefore, I would argue that the wrong question is being asked. Government is not the disease, it is merely the symptom of a greater flaw within us all.
    Last edited by Dos Equis; 04-23-2014 at 10:19 PM.
    1 Samuel 8:18 "And they shall cry out in that day because of your king which you have chosen, and the Lord will not hear you in that day."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BleedingHeadKen View Post
    A state is an organization with a monopoly on the legal use of force. A homeowners association is a collective and a governing body, but it is not a state.



    You may feel that you debate this ad nauseum, but all you debate is a strawman of your own creation. No one here has ever suggested that "collective action" must go away. In fact, quite the opposition, as the very nature of voluntary cooperation is collective action.
    So who is to enforce a limit on collective action? Does it not take collective action to enforce others to be prohibited from collective action?

    Clearly looking at history mankind gravitates to seeking collective action as a means of power to achieve his end. Who will raise an army to stop them?
    1 Samuel 8:18 "And they shall cry out in that day because of your king which you have chosen, and the Lord will not hear you in that day."

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