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Thread: Why Can't God Forgive Sin Without The "Shedding Of Blood"?

  1. #111
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    Mr. Independent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsqtr View Post
    The Bible is quite clear. Sin is a consequence of knowledge. It is part and parcel of the deal, you can't have one without the other.

    "People" say all kinds of stuff, but the Bible itself is clear on this point.

    I don't happen to agree with what some people have said about perfection in relation to sin, but that's just me. Ymmv and all that.
    I'm now interested in asking what your view of knowledge is then?

    I think you are onto something. I'm sorry about hurting the sensitive Christians but I don't know how else to say that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    I totally agree with you that, doctrinally, the "eternal torment" concept is unscriptural.
    Well, I cannot entirely agree with you here.

    The word most usually translated "hell" in the New Testament is Gehenna. (Literally, it refers to the valley of Hinnom, just outside of Jerusalem--sacrifices to Moloch were often made there--but it has come, tangentially, to mean any place of extreme torment or suffering.)

    (The word Tartarus--which appears only once in the New Testament--is a bit more nebulous. But Dictionary.com defines it as "a sunless abyss, below Hades, in which Zeus imprisoned the Titans"; or, secondarily, as "a place in Hades for the punishment of the wicked.")

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  4. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrclose View Post
    It's only a problem for those that fail to understand that omnipotent and omniscience don't actually control God.

    God controls his abilities.

    Take as an example the fantasy character ... Superman.

    Superman who could lift worlds would have a heck of a time doing simple tasks like opening doors or using a keyboard (as clark kent) or even hugging a loved one if he couldn't control his powers.
    He'd be crushing doorknobs, ripping doors from their jambs and squashing/liquefying anyone that he hugged!

    If Superman's powers controlled him ... he would actually be out of control and a danger to everyone!

    Now I said it was a simple example but apply the reasoning to the Almighty and be relieved that He does indeed control his abilities!

    Infinite power coupled with lack of control?

    Uh ... No thanks!

    Same with 'omniscience'!

    God did not want human robots or He Could have created them.

    He chose to be a parent who wishes the best for his children but would never think of putting a chip in their brain to micro-control their every move.
    Once God's children go to Heaven, don't they effectively become robots anyway?

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  6. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    Well, I cannot entirely agree with you here.

    The word most usually translated "hell" in the New Testament is Gehenna. (Literally, it refers to the valley of Hinnom, just outside of Jerusalem--sacrifices to Moloch were often made there--but it has come, tangentially, to mean any place of extreme torment or suffering.)

    (The word Tartarus--which appears only once in the New Testament--is a bit more nebulous. But Dictionary.com defines it as "a sunless abyss, below Hades, in which Zeus imprisoned the Titans"; or, secondarily, as "a place in Hades for the punishment of the wicked.")
    Did these older Greek punishment concepts have the literal burning fire too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    So God turned his super power of foreknowledge OFF so that he wouldn't have to realize that creating a couple of free will beings would result in thousands of years of death, suffering, and judgement for billions of their descendants, because they broke laws that HE instituted, which amount to them having to be as "perfect" as HIM?

    You beat me to the "geez" emoji but that one deserves SEVERAL


    That is SO ridiculous from any angle, not to mention absolutely incriminating for one that would claim to be loving and merciful. Basically it amounts to him abandoning his ability to know that this creation would not go well for those he created, IN CASE it wouldn't go well! That is no different, morally, from knowing it would be a disaster and going ahead with it anyway if he couldn't "shut off" his foreknowledge.
    I was going to say it was a pantload.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny1 View Post
    No, I WON"T answer your Bait. Read the Bible. THEN we can talk.
    What we have here, is an admitted Atheist, asking questions about a Deity he doesn't believe is, not to understand, but to refute. Yet, you won't read the Subject matter you are questioning. And, when I won't play your game by YOUR rules, you call me ignorant and a cop out. Typical.
    I AM following the admonition of the Scriptures, not to engage in contention about the Scriptures. The only instruction I have received about speaking to people about Christ, is to announce the Good News of God's Kingdom. I have no need to convince you of Squat. Trying to manipulate me by insulting and questioning my intelligence just reinforces my observations about atheists to anyone who may be watching, so as not to deter them from searching for Bilical Answers to THEIR questions.
    Try being Honest Hearted, and maybe you'll get somewhere. Right now, you are wasting everyone's time, for nothing but an argument.
    I will Not be playing.
    I have read the Bible, in at least three different versions.

    It is not difficult to understand. Did your god build humans simply to torment us?

    It was said the Greek gods (who were mostly draw from Mesopotamian gods just as your gods are) created humans because they were bored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Independent View Post
    Did these older Greek punishment concepts have the literal burning fire too?
    As Wikipedia notes, "Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    Why do men HAVE to be "righteous" in the eyes of God? Why do they have to be "declared perfect" in order to escape judgement when they are finite, mortal and imperfect by DEFINITION? And, why make them in the first place if this was all going to cause a huge problem whereby God was going to feel he HAD to start breaking heads?

    All the objections I see to the OP are simply assumed and doctrinal. I'm trying to get underneath all that and ask the MOST FUNDAMENTAL questions - the ones believers may (?) be afraid to ask. What is the REASON God's creation was allowed to go "south" at the expense of billions of souls if he knew BEFORE he created that WOULD happen? "God can do anything he wants" doesn't answer that question on a MORAL level.

    "God is working on it". Again, why does he have to "work" on it? If a loving God was going to end up judging everyone who wasn't as perfect as himself, why didn't he "work" that out BEFORE he created a race of free will beings which he KNEW would screw up and he, for some reason, would have to allow to suffer? The problem is, that DOESN'T seem "merciful" on the whole.
    You have really answered your own question--even if you do not quite realize it.

    In the final paragraph, above, you speak of "free will beings."

    Indeed, God could have created a race of mere automatons, who would have been morally perfect.

    But free will necessarily vitiates any possibility of moral perfection.

    And I would much rather have free will--even with the attendant propensity to occasionally sin--than to have been made a mere robot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    It isn't complex. Not in the least. If god knew he is a sadist.

    Gods do not exist. Problem solved.
    Your inability to comprehend my answer does not make me wrong.
    Scientist, Evangelical Christian - reformed, father, entrepreneur, hunter, outdoorsman, motorcyclist, Constitutional Conservative.

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    I became a Calvinist when finally pushed over the logical edge by reading:

    John 9:
    6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all Israelites truly belong to Israel, 7 and not all of Abraham’s children are his true descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants. 9 For this is what the promise said, “About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 Nor is that all; something similar happened to Rebecca when she had conceived children by one husband, our ancestor Isaac. 11 Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, 12 not by works but by his call) she was told, “The elder shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written,
    “I have loved Jacob,
    but I have hated Esau.”

    14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses,
    “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

    16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses.
    God’s Wrath and Mercy

    19 You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

    “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
    and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
    26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
    there they shall be called children of the living God.”"


    We do not sit in judgement of God.

    I will participate if there is a sincere question.
    Scientist, Evangelical Christian - reformed, father, entrepreneur, hunter, outdoorsman, motorcyclist, Constitutional Conservative.

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