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Thread: Question for non-socialists: what is socialism according to you?

  1. #31
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    Socialism almost killed the Pilgrims and the Jamestown settlement in their first years.

    Our nation learned early that this is utopian poison.
    Scientist, Evangelical Christian - reformed, father, entrepreneur, hunter, outdoorsman, motorcyclist, Constitutional Conservative.

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    socialism isnt a problem. the problem lays in how it was established and the checks and balances that are set up to keep it from becomming full blown communism. its best to keep socialsm extinct. and adress class grieviances on a 1-1 level.
    sic semper tyrannis

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    I don't think neil knows what time it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator Monroe View Post
    A Socialist is a Communist without a Gun
    The Black Panthers are socialist and have guns.

    Black Lives Matters cofounder Aliza Garcia is a Marxist and advocates killing of cops using guns.

    Germany's Nationalist Socialist Party (Nazis) SA (Brown shirts) had guns.
    The NSP S/S wore black uniforms and had guns.

    Castro's "26th of July Movement", "National Liberation Front" (Viet Cong), "Khmer Rouge" (Cambodia Killing Fields) are all socialist and used the gun.

    The "Communist Workers Party" used small pocket pistols...and the "Weathermen" aka "Weather Underground" used bombs.
    Last edited by APACHERAT; 12-02-2019 at 12:24 PM.

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    German Brownshirts were not openly Armed early on they were easily massacred ( especially unarmed Leadership in that castle ) the German populace was almost completely disarmed through Nationally implemented gun control and the Brownshirts used street thuggery tactics not gunpoint in most cases ( Including Krystalnacht). Only after they were interspersed into Military & law enforcement were they really armed .

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    Quote Originally Posted by neil View Post
    If you are not a socialist, please first state that you are not a socialist or not a proponent of socialism, then explain what is socialism according to you. You don't have to state that you are not a socialist or not a proponent of socialism more than once, if you post more than once on this thread.
    Not a socialist.

    Socialism is simple - its when a nation is controlled by force, by a small group of people or even one individual. Its rule by force, theft by force, democide, gulags, re-education camps, killing fields, starvation, genocide. Its secret police, surveillance, snitches. Its watching everything you say or write, being careful who you are seen with, always looking over your shoulder, always fearing a late night knock on your door. Its food ration cards that can be taken away at any moment if you or someone in your family crosses one of the "party bosses".

    The label does not matter. Call it socialism, fascism, communism, democratic socialism, dictatorship, rule by warlord or gang. In the end its all the same. The labels are just shiny objects to get people to think they are being sold something good when all that's happening is the tyrants are amassing the power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator Monroe View Post
    German Brownshirts were not openly Armed early on they were easily massacred ( especially unarmed Leadership in that castle ) the German populace was almost completely disarmed through Nationally implemented gun control and the Brownshirts used street thuggery tactics not gunpoint in most cases ( Including Krystalnacht). Only after they were interspersed into Military & law enforcement were they really armed .
    California's Democratic party S.A. (aka esse)


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    Quote Originally Posted by neil View Post
    I am neither a socialist nor a proponent of socialism.

    To me, socialism is - first of all - something that requires capitalism. In other words, it only exists in a capitalist system and it also mandates capitalism. I would also say that the existence of capitalism is not dependent on the existence of socialism.

    Capitalism cannot exist without the existence of the state; if there is capitalism, then there is the state. It is a contradiction or oxymoronic to speak of capitalism without the state, or the state without capitalism. There is either the state and capitalism, or there is neither the state nor capitalism. I can get more into this, but I would want to do this on a different thread.

    Explanation of what I mean by capitalism: to me, capitalism means anything that involves trade or an exchange of goods or services; it also means that there is ownership of property, whether by individuals, corporations, or the state. I don't think having capital necessarily means having huge stacks of cash or a bank account full of money; if you are a living, breathing, conscious, thinking human being capable of producing some sort of good or service, then you have capital (i.e., you possess the ability to offer or produce goods or services).

    Explanation of what I mean by property and ownership: to me, having property or ownership means the entity that owns the property has the right to exclude others from having/possessing, using, or borrowing the property in question; it also means the owner can enter into an agreement with another party to trade/sell, rent, lease, or loan the property. There are some exceptions when it comes to geographical regions (e.g., land).

    Explanation of trade or exchange: to me, trade & exchange means either barter or use of a medium of exchange (e.g., gold, silver, gold certificates, silver certificates, fiat money, debt-based interest-bearing private central bank notes, cryptocurrencies, salt, clams, etc.).

    To me, what distinguishes socialist capitalism from non-socialist capitalism is the restricted, banned, or mandated trade or exchange for goods or services that are produced by human manual labor (construction worker, carpenter, janitor, garbage collector, ditch digger, assembly line worker, etc.) or some form of exertion of effort involving human labor, or taking a risk, including reading or writing reports, using a computer, and speaking to people (secretary, receptionist, hostess, switchboard operator, police officer, nurse, doctor, engineer, lawyer, etc.), essentially for the purpose of trying to artificially economically engineer society against naturally occurring economic forces, or to control behavior (sex/drugs/rock&roll, etc.). This means it does not include someone being elected or appointed to government office, being called to serve jury duty, being summoned to testify as a witness in a court case, etc.

    Anyone who does anything, whether white collar or blue collar, skilled or unskilled, is laboring or in some other way taking a risk to produce a good or service. It essentially involves taking some sort of risk. Getting a job, loaning money or loaning something else, or investing in something, involves taking a risk; going to college or trade school involves taking a risk, the risk that the student will pass the requirements for the certificate or degree and be able to work competently in the field they trained in.

    This also basically doesn't include geographical elements, because the existence of a geographical region isn't the result of human labor or service: land or real estate, mountains, valleys, rivers, lakes, oceans, etc. (not that they can't be owned or "possessed" by an individual, corporation, or state); what I mean is that I think land or geographical regions can be privately or publicly owned, but they can also be taxed and used for public roadways or travelways, and the state can mandate the existence of a right-of-way or easement between a plot of property and the roadways or travel ways. The state can have eminent domain over geographical regions.

    In a similar way that there are exceptions when it comes to land ownership, a right-of-way, or other geographical region issues, there may also be exceptions when it comes to health purposes (quarantines, sanitation issues, etc.) and living space issues; for example, if a person is renting their home to someone, and they fail to pay their rent, they can't just barge in and drag them out of their homes; they have to go through lawful eviction procedures. Same if someone in a hotel room gets sick; the hotel can't just toss them out of their hotel room. There are probably things the state ought to do that it doesn't do, that I wouldn't consider socialism.

    An example of a socialist restriction (or ban) would be a minimum wage; this is the state preventing party A from entering into an agreement with party B to trade or exchange goods or services with each other that they desire; it bans employers from offering jobs that pay below a threshold. An example of a socialist mandate would be a requirement to purchase health insurance. Another example of a ban would be the state monopolizing a good or service, such as healthcare. A single payer system is also socialism, since it imposes restrictions, bans, or mandates on the healthcare industry.

    Socialism is something that needs to be enforced, and enforcement ultimately boils down to only one thing: a gun to people's heads. It's one thing for the police to put a gun to a criminal suspect's head, someone who has victimized someone else, but socialism essentially does this to people when there is no victim of a crime.

    One more thing, there are 2 aspects of society: the individual and the collective. Socialism is about putting the collective before the individual (and anarchism is about putting the individual before the collective).
    you could not be more wrong. In a capitalistic society you need free trade and it need not be money (state)

    100 of us could start our own society and we placed a greater value on the barber/hairdresser than say the doctor or mechanic, then the barber/hairdresser would receive greater compensation from us for his/her services. Payment could be sexual favors, livestock, rocks, bird feathers or in-kind services. It all depends if we wanted payment to be a one-to-one negotiation or for the collective to deem what is the payment vessel.

    In socialism, the state determines the fair market value.
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  10. #39
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    Question for non-socialists: what is socialism according to you?

    It is a way for the ruling class to take everything, including freedom, from everyone else. It is the opposite of what socialists think it is. If you think democrats hate Trump, you should see how much I hate socialism.

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