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Thread: The words "Under God" now being eliminated from the House of Representatives. The De

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by neil View Post
    I'm not here on this thread to discuss religion or religious beliefs; this isn't the religion section of the forum. If I want to discuss religion, I'll head on over there to that section of the form & do that.
    ...
    All ideology is based on core beliefs, about the nature of Man, God, and the universe. All ideologies are inherently religious and philosophical.

    You cannot divide beliefs about God from political or social ideologies.. marxism is atheistic, and America is based on principles from the Enlightenment, from core beliefs in a Creator.

    One can exclude competing ideologies, which is what progressives do, but that is only religious bigotry, demeaning the competition.

    You cannot promote or defend the core beliefs without reflecting the basic values and beliefs they are based upon.

    Absolute morality. > > > implies a Creator.. an Embedder that instilled a moral sense in everyone

    Relative or amorality > > > implies atheistic naturalism, or a distant, indifferent God with no moral imperative.

    It is the logical extensions of the core beliefs, that produce the specific ideal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fortis View Post
    There are 2 options, oath or affirmation. If this is the case how can removing "under God" be permitted.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlevi
    Permitted? How about constitutionally mandated?

    All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neil View Post
    Permitted? How about constitutionally mandated?
    @fortis is spot on. It is obvious to anyone that "oath or affirmation" says it all. What you highlighted in yellow has no relationship to using "under God". Nobody is asked, "Are you sure you want to say, under God?" as a qualifier for anything. That's what religious freedom is all about.
    Last edited by Northern Rivers; 10-20-2019 at 12:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neil View Post
    I disagree & your own OP for this thread is my evidence that it is being ignored.


    I'm curious about who "we" is, but maybe we can get back to that one.


    I'm well aware of the concept of context & I've made several arguments about things being taken out of context in the past.

    What is the context that you think I have & what - to you - is the correct context?

    I'd also like to ask you the same question I asked S-N-A-F-U: If a witness doesn't want to say "so help me God" when taking an oath or making an affirmation, or if someone saying the pledge of allegiance to the US doesn't want to say "under God", do you want them to be arrested, fined, or reprimanded in any way?
    Are you high? Asking for a friend.....
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    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...which I agree. But what you're saying congress cannot express it?

    What does "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" means to you?
    To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!

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    Quote Originally Posted by neil View Post
    Unless you say otherwise, I'll just take this as a "no" to my question.


    My cursory response to this would be that this isn't the religion section of the forum & I already said that if I wanted to discuss religion I'll head over to the religion section of the forum.

    However, I will also mention this, since it may be or become relevant to the topic in the section of the forum that it's in - since you may be mistakenly connecting two different issues together, I'll point out that depravity involves moral (or religious) corruption & this section of the forum is called government corruption; the two issues are distinct.

    I'm not interested in the notion, from a religious point of view, of whether or not it's morally corrupt to corrupt government. I was raised religious, and if I were still religious I would think that it would be morally corrupt to corrupt government, but it seems like those who are religious think that it is not morally corrupt to corrupt government, or that corrupting government is the moral thing to do. This sort of hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance is one reason I find religion to be reprehensible and destructive to society.

    It seems we come down to the old question; what came first the chicken or the egg?'
    Fact is, Man is corrupt and sinful, he has put issues of self-interest, corruption and morality ahead of God's admonishments from the very beginning. It makes no difference how one cuts it, man has corrupted religion as he has the culture he lives in. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible. Look around, the stench of that 'cancer' is overpowering and corrosive to ones reasoning.
    Last edited by S-N-A-F-U; 10-20-2019 at 01:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neil View Post
    Permitted? How about constitutionally mandated?
    As I recall an individual does not have to recite the oath with God in it. They can recite the oath without God in it.

    I think they actually have a choice.
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    Presidential Oath Does Not Officially Require - The Christian Post


    It is believed that the first time the phrase was used came in 1865 when the Sacramento Daily Union reported that President Abraham Lincoln finished his oath by using the phrase and then kissed the Bible. But many historians maintain the first time it was noted was during Chester Arthur's inauguration in 1881.
    Since then, presidents have said "So Help Me God" at the end of their oath. However, the phrase was first prescribed under the Judiciary Act of 1789 for all U.S. judges and officers except the President. President Theodore Roosevelt concluded his oath by saying, "And thus I swear."
    According to Wikipedia, "Although the phrase is mandatory in these oaths, the said Act also allows for the option that the phrase be omitted by the officer, in which case it would be called an affirmation instead of an oath: 'Which words, so help me God, shall be omitted in all cases where an affirmation is admitted instead of an oath.'"



    Since the constitution mandates the oath be given on the 20th of January and since it falls on a Sunday this year, Obama will again recite the oath twice. He will officially take the oath in the Blue Room on Sunday and again during the inauguration ceremony on Monday outside the U.S. Capitol.
    The popular ceremony, attended by thousands, has already been marked by controversy. Pastor Louie Giglio of Atlanta, who has preached passionately on human trafficking, will not be giving the benediction because of a sermon he delivered in the mid-1990s saying homosexuality is a sin. It is unclear whether Giglio was asked to step aside or did so voluntarily.
    Replacing him will be the Rev. Luis Leon who serves at St. John's (Episcopal) Church in Washington, D.C., and who supports same-sex marriage.

    {It comes down to choice. For an individual no matter what job or profession he or she is in to have a choice to express what their consciences dictate to them that they must express. If Congress abridges that expression through law or policy that is violating the First Amendment and that affects secular or religious expression as well.}
    Last edited by Knightkore; 10-21-2019 at 12:31 PM.
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    You forgot this part:

    or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

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