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View Poll Results: Have you personally experienced 'something' that you believe was supernatural, or God

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  • I have experienced something that i believe to be Supernatural

    22 88.00%
  • I have not experienced anything supernatural that is not explainable as psychological or chemical

    3 12.00%
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Thread: Evidence for God: personal experience

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    A major difference, is the posters who present a spiritual experience or belief on God admit it is their belief. Theirs is experiential knowledge and evidence, but they generally present it as their belief.

    The atheists, otoh, dismiss the theists experiences (and beliefs) as contrived or delusions, dogmatically declaring THEIR beliefs as 'settled science!' But that is a definitional dodge, saying that Christians have belief, religion, and superstition, while atheists have science. That is a phony narrative, to deceive people. Atheists have faith in their religious beliefs, and are generally more dogmatic and intolerant than any theists, except muslim jihadists, perhaps.

    There is a lot of superstition rampant in religious belief. I just watched a Peter Popoff commercial where he's still sending vials of "Miracle Spring Water" to his followers and there are testimonies by some that they received thousands of dollars in the mail just by sending for that water - and this guy has ALREADY been publicly exposed as a charlatan. I'm not saying every Christian is superstitious or nave enough to fall for that kind of thing, but how would you evaluate such testimonies? Wouldn't you be pretty dang sure that the vast majority of such claims as these were either intentional falsehoods with maybe a real coincidence or two thrown in? That's just the same common sense I am applying by being skeptical.

    I'm going to give you an example of an apparent deception that involves hundreds of thousands of Christians, if not several million (?). I speak of the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches that believe they are genuinely exercising the biblical "gift of tongues". I don't know where you stand doctrinally on this issue because there are a lot of Christians who believe it and a lot who don't. But I can say without a doubt that what passes for "tongues" among those who believe it, is NOT people suddenly speaking in a GENUINE human language they didn't know. They are intentionally making up several "words" or sub-consciously, unintentionally, doing the same thing. Professional linguists have heard recordings of these "tongues' and concluded that the words involved were not a viable foreign language, but a mixing up of words in the speakers OWN language. If you have any experience in these circles you will no doubt conclude the same thing?


    Here's the grabber though - realizing that the tongues didn't sound like valid foreign languages, these Charismatic/Pentecostal folks began using the apologetic that most of the tongues were the "tongues of angels", not men, and so of course they needn't prove to be legitimate human languages


    Not so strangely enough, the "spiritual gift" that could most easily be faked (intentionally or otherwise) is the one spiritual gift that is MOST PREVALENT in these churches. But no skeptical analysis is applied among them regarding these things because they WANT to believe the real gifts of the Spirit are being exercised among them. To admit otherwise would be to question the foundational doctrine of their own church. Now apply that logic to the WHOLE of Christianity. How can you be SURE any of it is true?
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; Today at 01:43 PM.
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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharetheHedge View Post
    There is a lot of superstition rampant in religious belief. I just watched a Peter Popoff commercial where he's still sending vials of "Miracle Spring Water" to his followers and there are testimonies by some that they received thousands of dollars in the mail just by sending for that water - and this guy has ALREADY been publicly exposed as a charlatan. I'm not saying every Christian is superstitious or nave enough to fall for that kind of thing, but how would you evaluate such testimonies? Wouldn't you be pretty dang sure that the vast majority of such claims as these were either intentional falsehoods with maybe a real coincidence or two thrown in? That's just the same common sense I am applying by being skeptical.

    I'm going to give you an example of an apparent deception that involves hundreds of thousands of Christians, if not several million (?). I speak of the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches that believe they are genuinely exercising the biblical "gift of tongues". I don't know where you stand doctrinally on this issue because there are a lot of Christians who believe it and a lot who don't. But I can say without a doubt that what passes for "tongues" among those who believe it, is NOT people suddenly speaking in a GENUINE human language they didn't know. They are intentionally making up several "words" or sub-consciously, unintentionally, doing the same thing. Professional linguists have heard recordings of these "tongues' and concluded that the words involved were not a viable foreign language, but a mixing up of words in the speakers own language. If you have any experience in these circles you will no doubt conclude the same thing?


    Here's the grabber though - realizing that the tongues didn't sound like valid foreign languages, these Charismatic/Pentecostal folks began using the apologetic that most of the tongues were the "tongues of angels", not men, and so of course they needn't prove to be legitimate human languages


    Not so strangely enough, the "spiritual gift" that could most easily be faked (intentionally or otherwise) is the one spiritual gift that is MOST PREVALENT in these churches. But no skeptical analysis is applied among them regarding these things because they WANT to believe the real gifts of the Spirit are being exercised among them. To admit otherwise would be to question the foundational doctrine of their own church. Now apply that logic to the WHOLE of Christianity. How can you be SURE any of it is true?
    You seem to have missed the point..

    Whether there is contrivance or delusion in some human belief systems is not the question. Atheists and evolutionists have been caught contriving data or evidence, for various reasons.

    It is the beliefs of the individuals, and how they are presented. Dogmatism is a common human foible, in all groupthink settings.

    But it is a 'some, therefore all' fallacy to dismiss all personal testimonies, based only on incredulity and prejudice.
    ..

    'Christians have religion! Atheists have science!'
    Everyone has to do their own believing, and their own dying.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by usfan View Post
    You seem to have missed the point..

    Whether there is contrivance or delusion in some human belief systems is not the question. Atheists and evolutionists have been caught contriving data or evidence, for various reasons.

    It is the beliefs of the individuals, and how they are presented. Dogmatism is a common human foible, in all groupthink settings.

    But it is a 'some, therefore all' fallacy to dismiss all personal testimonies, based only on incredulity and prejudice.


    I am NOT saying, "some, therefore all" of supernatural claims are false. I am saying that MOST supernatural claims are naturally explainable and since the supernatural has not been proven to exist in the first place, involving a superseding of the very laws of nature, it is most likely that ALL such cases are naturally explainable if all could be analyzed where the details could be documented and proven accurate. Your presumption, as I think I mentioned before, is that what we are defining as the supernatural DOES exist. You may be right, but have NO "right" to assume that. I am only assuming that the "natural" exists, which we BOTH do. You are assuming that since the natural exists, so must the SUPER - natural? That does not necessarily follow, and besides, it is also predicated on something you believe in, admittedly, by FAITH.


    Now, do you think that many thousands of Christians who believe they have received the gift of tongues, per the 2nd chapter of Acts, are suffering from a self-imposed delusion or not?
    Last edited by SharetheHedge; Today at 02:58 PM.
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    "Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who kept their swords." (Benjamin Franklin)


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