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Thread: The Account of How Yamamoto, The Mastermind Behind Pearl Harbor, was Shot . . .

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Fan View Post
    England lost two generations in World War I and World War II, being pissed? Being pissed because you were stupid is, well, stupid, and in World War II, England was seriously flawed militarily, and poorly led. They lost those generations because the British Army never understood modern fighting tactics, they were stupid, unreliable, and fought the Germans like they were fighting the Boers of South Africa or the Zulu. In their march to empire, the only two times the British faced actual "modern armies" with firearms, was against the American colonists and the South African Boers. Everybody else that army encountered carried bow and arrow and spears against rifles. The World War I "over the top" trench attacks accomplished nothing, they were running into German in place machine gun fire. The decision to do that at the Some was a mega disaster; Churchill was responsible as head of the Admiralty for the Gallipoli-massacre, which was done with mostly Australian troops.

    It was the U.S. Marine Corps that developed the ability to transfer heavy supplies of ammunition at sea, bomb the beaches, and the landing craft which allowed those beaches to be invaded. Britain's only invention in World War I was the tank, which was used very late in the war. They had horrible Generals who didn't understand the new weapons of that war; airplanes; submarines; machine guns; poison. None of their staff understood military history. Napoleon's Old Guard" cavalry charge at Waterloo; the "Charge of the Light Brigade" and "Pickett's Charge" at Gettysburg and the end result, never was studied by the Brits.

    I understand France going to war in 1939, but Britain should never have done it. All they had to contribute was their Navy and one superior military leader, Tedder of the RAF, for the fight. Churchill also was responsible for the second stupid naval blunder in the Pacific in 1941, sending his newest and most powerful battleship, "Prince of Wales" to Singapore, to intimidate the Japanese??? The Japs had just destroyed the Amerian battleship fleet at Pearl Harbor, anybody believe they were afraid of the British and their two powerful battleships at Singapore? Think not, they send them out to sea the day after Pearl Harbor with no air support (that was the lesson of Pearl Harbor), and "Prince of Wales" and pocket battleship "Repulse" were sunk by Japanese bombers. Dump.

    The French knew, as did Hitler, that eventually, the Western Democracies would march as he continued to eliminate the various restraints put on Germany by the Versailles Treaty, all impossible to enforce in such a crowded, industrial nation like that. France alone could have and should have, left the Maginot Line fortresses in 1939, and sent their million man army (which was conquered and surrendered in six weeks after sitting on the azzes for six months allowing the Nazi's to prepare - and hasn't fought a major engagement since 1940) crashing through Germany's undefended Western border while their army was engaged carving up Poland.

    I can't recall the last time a French Army actually won a battle. But they had the ability to destroy Nazi Germany in 1939 if they had just a bit of "elan" and refused to do it. England's participation wasn't necessary. While Germany was engaged in a legitimate grievance fight with Poland, and Hitler made the secret pact with Stalin because he was afraid of engaging the Soviets in battle, they were not ready, France could have poured over her undefended Western border, and ended World War I right then. France always knew they were Germany's main first target, the fight for a nationalistic, hugely anti-Semantic, Nazi-government type against Jews, Poland wasn't important. France had the resources, they didn't use them.

    As for the British? Except for Malta and El Alamein, can't remember when the Brits won a land battle, unless the Americans were beside their flanks, bleeding all the way. Churchill allowing the city of Coventry to be carpet bombed and not sending the RAF up to defend it, because he didn't want to German's to know England had their codes, is accurate........... - Stan -
    Nothing unusual about an army fighting with the last war's method's.

    Nor anything unusual about people getting pissed about doing stupid things.

    Might explain the Democrats being pissed because they insisted on the hildebeast being their candidate.
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  2. #32
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    The most prominent engagement of WWI involving the Brits that I think of is Dunkirk. A retreat that somehow has been spun into a masterful success by historians because the Brits managed to lose less than they otherwise would.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan40 View Post
    Nothing unusual about an army fighting with the last war's method's.

    Nor anything unusual about people getting pissed about doing stupid things.

    Might explain the Democrats being pissed because they insisted on the hildebeast being their candidate.
    The problem with the British was their army never really was engaged with a modern enemy until they met Germany in World War I. Kitchener was the military commander of British forces, and they continually made over-the-top trench warfare attacks straight into emplaced German machine guns. I think they lost 100,000 men alone in the Battle of the Some, a three day advance they lost, gaining something like 12-yards of ground.

    Fighting Napoleon's conquests, they were never successful until Waterloo. The British deliberately maintained a small expeditionary military force because they controlled the seas with their navy. That navy was the reason Napoleon failed to conquer and control permanently, the continent of Europe, and it wasn't particularly unlike World War II after Germany defeated and occupied France. Napoleon and France controlled the land mass of Europe, Britain bottled her up with their navy. In World War II, the Nazi U-Boat strength almost destroyed the British Navy and broke the lifeline sea lanes to America. Germany occupied most of the land mass of Europe, North Africa, except Egypt and the tiny island of Malta, with an ally in Italy. Had Hitler stopped there, instead of invading the USSR in 1941, it wouldn't have made any difference what America supplied England with, we never would have gone back and taken France. Hitler had the war won before invading the Soviet Union.

    Throughout their march to the empire of the world, the British rarely faced an enemy which could defeat their army, because everyone they went up against was native populations with spears, like the Zulu's. Conquering India proved to be no problem for them. They lost two wars to America because we were armed with rifles and had a navy. When Cecil Rhodes, the imperialist's supreme (Rhodesia was named after him), made a direct and illegal land grab for the Transvaal region of South Africa (to control the diamond mines), the British finally went up against a modern, armed opponent, the rural Dutch-Afrikaner Boer's. They had been settled in South Africa over 200-years and were not going down without a fight. Kitchener was the commander for the British in the Boer War, early in his career.

    They used guerrilla tactics throughout that war (1899-1902), against horrific British military abuses against them and the civilian population. The British hung or shot most Dutch Boer prisoners dead on-the-spot, without trial or representation (Kitchener was a major force in this war early in his military career); the British also used huge horse-drawn double wagons connected by large iron chains, and ran them through the Boer's barns and houses, leveling them, or setting them on fire, as they did their crops. In addition, they rounded up all the women and children they could find and placed them in unsanitary holding areas they called "concentration camps" - yep - the British invented the concentration camp.

    As a young newspaper reporter, Winston Churchill was responsible for writing exposes' on the British methods which angered the nation, he even was captured and escaped while covering the Boer War. The Dutch were armed, fought guerilla warfare, and inflicted serious casualties upon the British professional troops, to the extent London had to send massive troop's to South Africa to finish the war. Something like 25,000 men with full equipment.

    England got the Transvaal, Rhodes was honored, and to this day, monies earned from those diamond mines that created his massive fortune, are still used in his name to provide Rhodes Scholarship's to Oxford to deserving students or people of importance. But it was a desperate and dirty fight, and England repeated the massacre in their 700-year misrule of tiny Ireland.

    British troops in World War I and World War II were poorly led, followed the same pattern as their colonial conquests, against a far superior, modern, armed Germany with mechanized speed and aircraft. The Messerschmidt fighter and the Focke-Wolfe were equal matches for the British combat aircraft. Also, the German's ground assault "blitzkrieg" was supported by their Stuka fighters, no match for the RAF fighters, but certainly terrorized, because of its slow speed ability, civilian populations and were capable of "plowing the road" in advance of the tanks. The BEF (British Expeditionary Force) on the ground in 1940 in France, was not capable of defeating Germany, and stupidly sat on their haunches like the French, letting Germany prepare, for six months, known as the "phony war." They missed an opportunity to win the war early, while the Nazi Army was carving up corrupt Poland. They were lucky Hitler's General Staff didn't have the plan for Case Sea Lion, the cross-channel invasion of England, in place at the time of Dunkirk, or England would have been conquered as quickly as France was.

    Back to Yamamoto. His death was ordered by Frank Knox, the Secretary of the Navy in World War II (former newspaper publisher), on the basis that the admiral was worth an entire flotilla of ships or an entire army to the Japanese. The American aviators spring the trap that caught and killed him in the air. Whether Knox discussed it with General Marshal, Chief of Staff, Admiral King, or FDR, I have never seen anything about in print. Later historians accused the American's of unfair and cowardly attacking and killing the admiral, apparently thinking that between Hector and Achilles, some leway for honor should have been given. B/S, the West now knows that Asia can produce such men as Yamamoto, and his death was an opportunistic blow in the fight with imperial Japan. ....... - Stan -
    Last edited by Stan Fan; 08-10-2018 at 01:13 AM.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Felix Birdbiter View Post
    The biggest mistake Hitler made was going after the Russians, the same mistake Napoleon made 130 years earlier. Almost half of all German casualties occurred in the Eastern Front.

    One must wonder if the United States were attacked with foreign boots on the ground would we fight to the death like Russia did in the war? To the Russians the individual lives did not matter, what was to be saved at all cost was "Mother Russia". Would Americans feel as strongly about their country as the Russians did?
    Well, actually, Hitler's biggest mistake was going after the Russians...and STOPPING, for unexplained reasons, before his troops reached Moscow. They wasted most of August, as I recall, and gave the Soviets time to dig in and fight back.

    Of course, Hitler capturing Russia would have been a disaster for Hitler, too. How could he have held such a vast area? He didn't have to troops to occupy ALL of Europe AND Russia AND murder all those Jews.

    Then again, Hitler was a madman, and one can't expect rational behavior from lunatics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Fan View Post
    Back to Yamamoto. His death was ordered by Frank Knox, the Secretary of the Navy in World War II (former newspaper publisher), on the basis that the admiral was worth an entire flotilla of ships or an entire army to the Japanese. The American aviators spring the trap that caught and killed him in the air. Whether Knox discussed it with General Marshal, Chief of Staff, Admiral King, or FDR, I have never seen anything about in print. Later historians accused the American's of unfair and cowardly attacking and killing the admiral, apparently thinking that between Hector and Achilles, some leway for honor should have been given. B/S, the West now knows that Asia can produce such men as Yamamoto, and his death was an opportunistic blow in the fight with imperial Japan. ....... - Stan -
    The Brits seemed to be annoyed somewhat with the colonists in the 1770's because the colonists preferred to shoot the more gaily decorated officers than to waste bullets on an endless number of enlisted serfs.

    Yamato was a military officer. Made him a perfectly legitimate target.

    I personally am all in favor of killing the leaders of an enemy nation as an efficient means of winning a war.

    Killing a national leader before war is declared is wrong, of course, but he's just a proper target once the war is on.
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    ... England was seriously flawed militarily, and poorly led. Their main contribution in World War II was to allow the island to be used as a military refrigerator for munitions supplies and American troops.
    Was that statement supposed to be serious?

    Ever heard of SONAR? Its Brit inventers called it ASDIC ("C" stands for "Committee).

    Radio direction finding? A Brit-invented technology.

    Radar? The key component for the short wavelength necessary for good resolution was the cavity magnetron, a Brit invention.

    Ultra? Broken by the Brits, with French and Polish assistance. The Brits created computers to automate the decoding and a dedicated information distribution system to maintain security.

    The Panzerschiffe "Graf Spee"? Its commerce raiding career was terminated by the Royal Navy.

    The battleship "Bismarck"? Its commerce raiding career was terminated before beginning by the Royal Navy. The USN believed the Bismarck so much better than USS Arakansas and its New York class BBs that it moved three New Mexico class BBs from the Pacific to the Atlantic to counter Bismarck.

    Think the B-17 was formidable? The B-24 was better, and the RAF's Lancaster was arguably better than the B-24.

    Ever heard of El Alamein? With significant material aid from the US, the Brits (led by Montgomery) turned the Germans back from Egypt and chased them back to Tunisia. Operation Torch landed during that chase, aiding and aided by it.

    Brit troops aided the invasions of Sicily and Italy.

    Ever heard of Gold and Juno beaches? Those are where Brit troops landed on D-Day.

    Just off the top of my head.

    It was the U.S. Marine Corps that developed the ability to transfer heavy supplies of ammunition at sea, bomb the beaches, and the landing craft which allowed those beaches to be invaded. Britain's only invention in World War I was the tank, which was used very late in the war.
    The USMC built on Brit techniques used at Gallipoli (whose failure was not due to landing and supply techniques). Similarly, US landing craft were developed from Brit landing craft.

    The Brits used tanks in 1916, mid-WW1 rather than late. Ever heard of the HMS Dreadnought? It was the vanguard of naval technology. It obsoleted RN and other navies' existing battleships and gave its name to battleships that emulated and improved on it. Not only was Dreadnought revolutionary in its focus on single-caliber main guns, it also was the first battleship to use steam turbine engines rather than vertical triple expansion engines. Turbines improved both speed and reliability. The USN built five classes of dreadnought BBs before finally using turbine engines in USS Nevada.

    Wanna talk WW1 aircraft? The leaders of the pack in development were the Germans, French and Brits. While the Brits' bureaucracy led to obsolete aircraft remaining in service (and many pilots lost!) in 1916 and early 1917, they quickly caught up in the latter part of 1917 and were peers or betters of the Germans in 1918. The reason I didn't mention American aircraft? Our best was the Curtis JN-4, basically a trainer. For combat American pilots used French or Brit aircraft.
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    Fighting Napoleon's conquests, they were never successful until Waterloo.
    Geesh! I've read little of the Napoleonic Wars, but even I've heard of the Peninsular War. It was led by Lt. Gen. Sir Arthur Wellesley. He's better known as the Duke of Wellington. Perhaps you've heard of him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traddles View Post
    Was that statement supposed to be serious?

    Ever heard of SONAR? Its Brit inventers called it ASDIC ("C" stands for "Committee).

    Radio direction finding? A Brit-invented technology.

    Radar? The key component for the short wavelength necessary for good resolution was the cavity magnetron, a Brit invention.

    Ultra? Broken by the Brits, with French and Polish assistance. The Brits created computers to automate the decoding and a dedicated information distribution system to maintain security.

    The Panzerschiffe "Graf Spee"? Its commerce raiding career was terminated by the Royal Navy.

    The battleship "Bismarck"? Its commerce raiding career was terminated before beginning by the Royal Navy. The USN believed the Bismarck so much better than USS Arakansas and its New York class BBs that it moved three New Mexico class BBs from the Pacific to the Atlantic to counter Bismarck.

    Think the B-17 was formidable? The B-24 was better, and the RAF's Lancaster was arguably better than the B-24.

    Ever heard of El Alamein? With significant material aid from the US, the Brits (led by Montgomery) turned the Germans back from Egypt and chased them back to Tunisia. Operation Torch landed during that chase, aiding and aided by it.

    Brit troops aided the invasions of Sicily and Italy.

    Ever heard of Gold and Juno beaches? Those are where Brit troops landed on D-Day.

    Just off the top of my head.



    The USMC built on Brit techniques used at Gallipoli (whose failure was not due to landing and supply techniques). Similarly, US landing craft were developed from Brit landing craft.

    The Brits used tanks in 1916, mid-WW1 rather than late. Ever heard of the HMS Dreadnought? It was the vanguard of naval technology. It obsoleted RN and other navies' existing battleships and gave its name to battleships that emulated and improved on it. Not only was Dreadnought revolutionary in its focus on single-caliber main guns, it also was the first battleship to use steam turbine engines rather than vertical triple expansion engines. Turbines improved both speed and reliability. The USN built five classes of dreadnought BBs before finally using turbine engines in USS Nevada.

    Wanna talk WW1 aircraft? The leaders of the pack in development were the Germans, French and Brits. While the Brits' bureaucracy led to obsolete aircraft remaining in service (and many pilots lost!) in 1916 and early 1917, they quickly caught up in the latter part of 1917 and were peers or betters of the Germans in 1918. The reason I didn't mention American aircraft? Our best was the Curtis JN-4, basically a trainer. For combat American pilots used French or Brit aircraft.

    And the British made key early inputs into the development of the fission bomb, too.

    It's such a shame that a country with so much talent didn't have the BALLS to stand up to Hitler early when Hitler could have been stopped easily.

    Nooo….they had to play with themselves and whine, until it was too late, and then Churchill wrote in his history of the war that it was the US to blame for not entering into the war sooner, that WE didn't fulfill our "obligations" as an English speaking country to "our people".

    If we hadn't illegally intervened in the Atlantic War in 1941, Hitler wouldn't have prodded Japan to attack us. Maybe the Japs would have done it on their own, they were definitely crazy too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sled Dog View Post
    And the British made key early inputs into the development of the fission bomb, too.

    It's such a shame that a country with so much talent didn't have the BALLS to stand up to Hitler early when Hitler could have been stopped easily.

    Nooo….they had to play with themselves and whine, until it was too late, and then Churchill wrote in his history of the war that it was the US to blame for not entering into the war sooner, that WE didn't fulfill our "obligations" as an English speaking country to "our people".

    If we hadn't illegally intervened in the Atlantic War in 1941, Hitler wouldn't have prodded Japan to attack us. Maybe the Japs would have done it on their own, they were definitely crazy too.
    Was going to respond to the post about all the British inventions and technological developments, with, then why didn't they attack and win, but you said it much better than I could @Sled Dog.

    British leadership, with the exception of Tedder in charge of the RAF, throughout the war was poor. El Alamin stopped the Africa Corp of Rommel from taking North Africa and Egypt, and the RAF held sway in the Med from Malta. But if you go back and review posts of mine, you will see the comment that the Brits didn't fight unless America was at their sides bleeding all of the way. Normandy? Nobody remembers the British landing beaches, because they got the easier ones, while we got Omaha and the steep heights. Everybody remembers their previous beaches - Dunkirk. Their fight early in the war with the Bismarck was self-protection, they sent everything they had against that massive battleship, and only got it because a torpedo winged its rudder, and left it helpless to be defeated. The Graff Spree was deliberately sunk in South America.

    However, instead of convincing the reluctant French, who had the same problem as Britain - remembering their massive losses in World War I, prevented them from going offensive in World War II, those two nations easily, at anytime from 1932 on could have walked into Germany against zero odds, even as late as 1939 when the Nazi's were carving up Poland, without opposition, and captured Berlin. Up until that time, America was isolationist, we had zero interest in European wars, which were running continually for 100-years. It was their problem, they stupidly gave Poland a guarantee of protection and refused to follow up on it. Even Hitler and his General Staff were "shocked" when the Western declarations of war came in over their invasion of Poland. The General Staff, which knew nothing of the Ribbentrop Pact giving half of Poland to Stalin without firing a shot, kept delaying and delaying the invasion. When Nazi artillery crossed into Poland, the German army was still using horses. The Mayor of Poland called on the United States for clouds of airplanes to save Warsaw, ringed by Nazi troops and destroyed by artillery. The clouds of airplanes? The British had them, and had gone to war to defend Poland, and abandoned her to their fate without using them. The "Battle of Britain" really should have taken place over Warsaw, but by then it was too late to save the country they swore to defend.

    Churchill's sole responsibility and hope throughout World War II's opening was to get the United States into the war, and British ground troops were poorly led. British troops didn't take part in the attack up over the mountains of Italy, a bloodbath all the way to Monte Casino, it was American troops that Churchill had convinced us to make the assault into the "soft underbelly of Europe into Germany." The Brits, nowhere to be found. American troops captured Rome the same day as D-Day landings in Normandy.

    England and France could have prevented Hitler and Germany from unleashing the mega World War II disaster, easily, but they refused to move, thus my remarks that England was militarily poorly led and in bad shape. You could have had the A-Bomb in 1939, but the Brits probably wouldn't have used it......

    As for the Duke of Wellington, his only win against Napoleon to my knowledge was in the last battle at Waterloo. That was after Napoleon escaped his island prison, and returned to take command. The Emperor's troops won battle after battle, and the British never were a factor in most of them on his first try. The Russian invasion was a reach for Napoleon's troops and weakened them and the French to the point they could be stopped, but they had to be stopped at Waterloo to finish Napoleon. BTW, if Marshal Ney's foolish cavalry attack at Waterloo had any purpose, he failed. They didn't spike the Prussian and British cannons, if they had, Waterloo would have ended differently, and Hitler might not have ever been heard of in history. Modern Europe would have developed along a French model, not the militaristic Prussian - German one. Ney's charge was purposeless because he didn't spike the guns, they got there - they didn't do anything with the weapons or real estate the arrived at........

    --- - Stan ----
    Last edited by Stan Fan; 08-10-2018 at 01:51 PM.

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