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Thread: Trump's Trade Wars

  1. #11
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    Back on topic.

    Well, I don’t want to appear to be stating the obvious, but hasn’t US involvement during the last couple of decades produced the volatile world of Libya, Iraq, Syria … Both Russia and China have repeatedly said they want to power share in spheres of influence, it’s America that refuses. The 'deep state' is exactly what caused the unstability. Let’s look at some facts.

    Economically, take away the 3 to 5% unemployment statistics and 'America is doing great' because that’s what Obama was saying. 192m full-time workers means just under half of the American population isn’t even producing. After a decade of Obama the economy is in a mess. The word 'again' is the keyword in MAGA.

    Socially, America hasn’t been so divided since the civil war.

    Militarily, the challengers Russia and China mean America has lost its undisputed world control and authority.

    Now put all that together and despite all the bluster, things aren’t going well back at the ranch. Russia is in the Middle East, China is making economic inroads in Africa and Belarus says if Poland allows an American base, it will consider allowing Russia a base on NATOs right flank. All the sticking out tongues of, 'we’ll nuke ‘em' and 'we do what we want' rhetoric is a decade out of date and is coming out of the 'deep state'.

    What America has to come to terms with is that the world doesn’t consist of children who need to be parentally controlled. Of course there are going to disputes, but it’s not something that neighbouring countries can’t solve themselves. How much has it cost the US to surround Russia with missile bases waiting for a Russian invasion that never happened? How much has it cost playing one side off against another in Syria? Nuland admits the US spent $5bn alone bribing Ukraine to stay with the west. What an absolute waste of money and resources and for what? The reason is to keep countries within the dollar system and its taken Trump to point out that it’s now more about economics than military might.
    Last edited by Pork Chop; 06-13-2018 at 05:15 AM.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    Hmm, after voting Obama in twice, a 'smart nation' might be an overstatement?

    Economics and trade has nothing to do with national security and if the US is reliant on Chinese steel for 90% of its needs, itís because its own economy is unable to supply that itself.

    Yes, it is a kind of war, an economic one in which aircraft carriers donít matter anymore and to win it after a decade of Obama is wishful thinking?

    The reason the US is now corporate is because these corporations had to outsource in bulk to enable their prices to be affordable. Itís why Wall Mart has survived and those selling Made in America are going bust at a rate of knots.

    Agreed that Trump should break these corporations up, but you also touch on the problem of them being more powerful than some nations. The last person to tell America that he was going to expose the workings in the shadows was JFK. At the moment Trump is undoing the Obama legacy, but if he starts on the people and corporations embeded in the 'deep state' thatís a very different and dangerous game.
    As you outline it than the world is over and it's back to the caves for us. The US cannot sustain it's horrific debt for ever. At some point our debt is going to crush the US and when we are gone the world as we know it is over.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    Agreed that America should stop the funding, but that means America is not top dog anymore because out of that will rise something or someone else leading it and the 'exceptionalism' and assumed right to be top dog prevents that.

    The reason for the debt is that America doesnít live off what it produces. For years if thereís a need for extra cash the government asks the Federal Reserve to print some more paper, trillions of it ($2tr in just five years). Previously the profit from others using the dollar enabled America to survive, but as countries now increasingly abandon the dollar the discrepency between production and dollar revenue is becoming obvious. There are currently approximately 192 million full-time workers in the US. Youíre going to take on the world in economics, whilst funding tens of millions on welfare and beat it with that?

    Absolutely agree, America needs a great economy. How itís going to do that is debateable, but you need that great economy first before you take on others, not the other way around. That also means America is going to have to do some growing up itself and not assume the world owes it a living by using the dollar. It works both ways.

    This first-world American life style and top notch military wasnít paid for by economic profit, but by countries being forced to use the dollar and the results are now showing, just as they did in Britain when it lost its colonial empire.

    On a personal level. A pair of quality Timberlake leather sandals where I live costs around $100. Thatís enough to pay all my utilites of electric, gas, water, internet, for over two months. Now you work out what your utilities cost over two months plus and would you pay that for a pair of sandals? I can buy the same quality made in Thailand or China for a fraction of that price. Now, convince myself and the world we should buy American.
    First of all America's "exceptionalism" is not based on being top dog. America's exceptionalism is based on our Constitution and liberty and freedom. I'll admit since we went communism that exceptionalism has been hit hard and I don't know if we can ever get our exceptionalism back.

    I do agree that America needs to stop being the top dog and stop being the piggy bank to the world. That alone will work to making our economy great again. I'm a strong supporter of pulling the US out of the UN and NATO. Let the world and Europe defend itself that best way it can. If some other nation wants to bankrupt itself running the world let them do it. You wan't get an argument out of me.

    I'll say this when the US is no more the world will move back to the caves and wear animal skins again. The greatest economy the world has ever seen since ancient Rome has been because of the US and when we are gone the world will go back to the Dark Ages yet again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    Completely off topic, but I just thought Iíd mention it because itís sort of personal.

    Mrs Chop and I went shopping this morning. Sitting in the car at the traffic lights up came two boy racers about 17 years old on their motorbikes and positioned themselves in front of our car, blue T.Shirt and green T.Shirt. No crash helmets, rev, rev, lots of noise and I said to Mrs Chop, 'thereís an accident waiting to happen!' Blue T.Shirt looked behind him directly at me and smiled. I smiled back and shook my head at him. Raising his left hand in a clenched fist salute he and his friend took off doing wheelies like bats out of hell as the lights turned green.

    A mile up the road thereís another set of lights and a sharp right hand bend. The police were already there as we passed. Blue T.Shirt was stretched out alone by the side of the road and already dead judging by his head injuries. The police were pumping his friends chest who didnít look like he was going to survive either. Mrs Chop said, 'I feel so sorry when their parents hear what happened' and I just thought, what a waste of two young lives.

    Thailand is like a bloodbath for road accidents; drunks, no lights, speeding, no crash helmets and defensive driving techniques are a must to learn, but you never become immune to driving past the results. This one especially, as I was the last person young blue T.Shirt saw before he died.
    Stupid hurts. Hope they didn't get a chance to breed.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    Back on topic.

    Well, I don’t want to appear to be stating the obvious, but hasn’t US involvement during the last couple of decades produced the volatile world of Libya, Iraq, Syria … Both Russia and China have repeatedly said they want to power share in spheres of influence, it’s America that refuses. The 'deep state' is exactly what caused the unstability. Let’s look at some facts.

    Economically, take away the 3 to 5% unemployment statistics and 'America is doing great' because that’s what Obama was saying. 192m full-time workers means just under half of the American population isn’t even producing. After a decade of Obama the economy is in a mess. The word 'again' is the keyword in MAGA.

    Socially, America hasn’t been so divided since the civil war.

    Militarily, the challengers Russia and China mean America has lost its undisputed world control and authority.

    Now put all that together and despite all the bluster, things aren’t going well back at the ranch. Russia is in the Middle East, China is making economic inroads in Africa and Belarus says if Poland allows an American base, it will consider allowing Russia a base on NATOs right flank. All the sticking out tongues of, 'we’ll nuke ‘em' and 'we do what we want' rhetoric is a decade out of date and is coming out of the 'deep state'.

    What America has to come to terms with is that the world doesn’t consist of children who need to be parentally controlled. Of course there are going to disputes, but it’s not something that neighbouring countries can’t solve themselves. How much has it cost the US to surround Russia with missile bases waiting for a Russian invasion that never happened? How much has it cost playing one side off against another in Syria? Nuland admits the US spent $5bn alone bribing Ukraine to stay with the west. What an absolute waste of money and resources and for what? The reason is to keep countries within the dollar system and its taken Trump to point out that it’s now more about economics than military might.
    You do bring up an interesting point.

    There are two Americas, one America of REAL Americans that says America is for America and we don't need to police the world nor fund the world's socialist programs. Lets make America great again by being America. We REAL Americas are for leaving the UN, NATO and don't give a crap if Russia or China take over there respective areas of influence and that includes Europe. I agree America should never ever have entered WWI or WWII.

    The other America is composed of Communists who want to do whatever it takes to bring down America to institute a one world government with no national boundaries. These "Americans" are not Americans but Communists and Moslems and their useful idiots.

    Unfortunately, the Communists and Moslems make up the majority of so-called "Americans". Real Americans make up only about 5% of the total American population.

  6. #16
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    There is a fair amount of this that I can agree with and some I disagree with.

    ďFirst if heís going to compete at equal levels, which is his intended aim, heís going to need a good industrial manufacturing base both to produce goods and compete and he hasnít got that.Ē

    Taxcutter says:
    I agree with that. This has to be done by a combination of government and private sector action. First and foremost, is that government has to get out of the way. The US has an unimaginable amount of regulations on economic activity and (unlike much of the world) the US enforces those regulations. The Volkswagen incident shows you just what Europeans think of US regulations. They view their own regulations much the same way. They have ďfixersĒ that get them out of the expensive barriers internally. China is even worse. Enough yuan in the right party officialís hands and the regs go away for the one offering the bribe. I say that power corrupts. Take away the government power and government will not be corrupt.

    Americaís tort liability system has been beyond reason for decades. Literally everything can be held hostage to frivolous lawsuits. In the US there is no downside to filing a lawsuit. In most countries, a plaintiff who loses has to pay everybodyís legal costs. Not so in the US. Instant US disadvantage. A lot of offshoring was done to get away from the US tort liability system.

    Another factor is the all-too-human tendency to save large organizations when they collapse on their own. We saw that big-time in 2008. The US should have allowed the busted companies to go through normal bankruptcy. Somebody would have picked up the pieces (at 8 cents on the dollar) and the economy would have righted itself. The US used to work that way. In 1920 GM went broke. Billy Durant never really recognized that the auto biz is cyclical and he wouldnít lay off to minimize losses during down sales periods. Henry ford recognized that. In 1920 GM was essentially bought out by DuPont (who had made a mountain of money on World War One.) They canned Billy and promoted Alfred P. Sloan and he managed GM very well for decades Ė even making at least a small profit in the depths of the Great Depression. That is a normal part of the business cycle that was first observed in ancient Athens. Itís called ďcreative destruction.Ē The old business dies and a new one replaces it. But the US like most humans do not have faith in the power of greed. They think that if GM goes away it will never be replaced. As long as there is a demand, there will be suppliers if they can make a buck on what is being produced.

    Something else the government can do is to reform the educational system. Both secondary and higher education are producing graduates that have no use in the private sector. Weíve all seen HS grads who canít make change and sociology majors who are (as best I can tell) are good for nothing. Mike Rowe has brought this issue to the public attention.

    I can go on and on about this but Iíll stop this line here.


    ďÖmany countries are now abandoning the US dollar.Ē

    Taxcutter asks:
    And going to what? The Chinese and Japanese are notorious for arbitrarily devalues the yuan and yen to retain a competitive advantage. The Euro is on the edge to breaking up because the EU cannot enforce fiscal discipline. If youíre going to replace the dollar, you have to have a replacement that works better. Spare me the bit about gold. The sum total of all gold mined since antiquity is not enough to back 0.01% of world commerce. No market is efficient enough to overnight change the price of a pickup truck to $200 even if that $200 were gold-backed. I view bitcoin as a scam. My local grocery store does not take bitcoin.



    ďTrumps strength lie in dismantling the rules, regulations and taxes on American industry and making it competitive againÖĒ


    Taxcutter says:
    Agreed. In fact the last four decades have done part of the work of making US goods more competitive. Blue-collar unions (the kind that you have in manufacturing) are a shadow of what they were in the 1970s. So hidebound work rules are not much of a problem in the US.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post
    Back on topic.

    Well, I don’t want to appear to be stating the obvious, but hasn’t US involvement during the last couple of decades produced the volatile world of Libya, Iraq, Syria … Both Russia and China have repeatedly said they want to power share in spheres of influence, it’s America that refuses. The 'deep state' is exactly what caused the unstability. Let’s look at some facts.

    Economically, take away the 3 to 5% unemployment statistics and 'America is doing great' because that’s what Obama was saying. 192m full-time workers means just under half of the American population isn’t even producing. After a decade of Obama the economy is in a mess. The word 'again' is the keyword in MAGA.

    Socially, America hasn’t been so divided since the civil war.

    Militarily, the challengers Russia and China mean America has lost its undisputed world control and authority.

    Now put all that together and despite all the bluster, things aren’t going well back at the ranch. Russia is in the Middle East, China is making economic inroads in Africa and Belarus says if Poland allows an American base, it will consider allowing Russia a base on NATOs right flank. All the sticking out tongues of, 'we’ll nuke ‘em' and 'we do what we want' rhetoric is a decade out of date and is coming out of the 'deep state'.

    What America has to come to terms with is that the world doesn’t consist of children who need to be parentally controlled. Of course there are going to disputes, but it’s not something that neighbouring countries can’t solve themselves. How much has it cost the US to surround Russia with missile bases waiting for a Russian invasion that never happened? How much has it cost playing one side off against another in Syria? Nuland admits the US spent $5bn alone bribing Ukraine to stay with the west. What an absolute waste of money and resources and for what? The reason is to keep countries within the dollar system and its taken Trump to point out that it’s now more about economics than military might.
    Russia isn't a player, it has no resources and it's military is stymied by friggin' Ukraine.

    China's economy is hollow. The US market dries up, China blows away.

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quark View Post
    First of all America's "exceptionalism" is not based on being top dog. America's exceptionalism is based on our Constitution and liberty and freedom. I'll admit since we went communism that exceptionalism has been hit hard and I don't know if we can ever get our exceptionalism back.

    I do agree that America needs to stop being the top dog and stop being the piggy bank to the world. That alone will work to making our economy great again. I'm a strong supporter of pulling the US out of the UN and NATO. Let the world and Europe defend itself that best way it can. If some other nation wants to bankrupt itself running the world let them do it. You wan't get an argument out of me.

    I'll say this when the US is no more the world will move back to the caves and wear animal skins again. The greatest economy the world has ever seen since ancient Rome has been because of the US and when we are gone the world will go back to the Dark Ages yet again.
    The world is not over if the US collapses economically, or rather loses its illusion of economic power, the world simply carries on turning. Two hundred years ago the British Empire ruled the waves and had the greatest economy. Itís nothing new, itís just inevitable change. No one is going back to the dark ages if America fails. The world was here long before America became a nation.

    Absolutely agree that exceptionalism is based on the constitution, thereís never been one like it and probably never will be again. Thatís what all the fuss is about now, that itís moved away from the constitution to protecting the institutions at any cost. Thereís nothing in the constitution that Iím aware of that says America has to be the worldís policeman, or top economic power. Thatís the fault of the corruption itís undergone in which America itself has come to be regarded as exceptional and something the world canít do without.

    The upshot of all this is that America is just discovering that trying to police the world, is an expensive business which is bleeding it dry.
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    @Taxcutter

    Generally agree up to the last paragraph.

    The Chinese have just introduced the Yuan as a reserve currency. Itís early days yet, but the point of having several currencies is that if one collapses it doesnít bring everyone else down with it as it did in 2008.

    Europeís central banks are starting to replace dollar reserves with the yuan

    Yes, itís true that America canít cover its debt with gold, thatís why countries are moving away from the dollar, itís pieces of paper currency backed by nothing. You need more money, you print more pieces of paper, itís valueless.

    Donít you think Trump would do the same as the Chinese to maintain economic advantage if it suited? Gold is so important that when Gaddafi introduced the gold dinar to replace the dollar he disappeared instantly. Your local store doesnít take gold because itís hooked on the dollar. If that starts to decline your store will take anything except the dollar.
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