User Tag List

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 53

Thread: You Want Electric Road Vehicles?

  1. #41
    Senior Member Achievements:
    1 year registered50000 Experience Points
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Gatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Posts
    105
    Thanks
    26
    Thanked: 61
    Rep Power
    429499
    Overhead lines or in the road tracks - Sweden appears to have a little of both !




    New road in Sweden charges electric cars as they drive along it
    Last edited by Gatsby; 05-13-2018 at 04:35 PM.

  2. #42
    Games People Play V.I.P Achievements:
    OverdriveSocial50000 Experience PointsTagger Second ClassVeteranCreated Blog entry
    Overall activity: 78.0%

    JustPassinThru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    New California
    Posts
    45,977
    Thanks
    9,004
    Thanked: 30,506
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474887
    That's a novel way to control where people can and cannot go...nope, not permitted off the induction track...

    What's wrong, again, with what we have? Are we warming? This is probably the coldest winter and spring in a century.

  3. #43
    Alumni Member & VIP V.I.P Achievements:
    Social50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryTagger First ClassRecommendation Second ClassVeteran
    Overall activity: 66.0%

    Sled Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    40,586
    Thanks
    8,275
    Thanked: 25,257
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474881
    Quote Originally Posted by Taxcutter View Post
    Taxcutter says:
    I take it you haven't seen the new double-sleeper truck bodies yet. They allow three-person crews to keep the load moving in spite of federal regs. This would work really well with catenary electric drive on coast-to-coast runs. Such a truck would never have to stop - even for fuel. They only need to stop long enough to change the butt in the seat.

    If it's electric on a defined track....it can be put on some kind of autopilot and then the crew change wouldn't require a stop, merely a straight road with clear traffic.

    Yeah, you know that's coming.

    Why else would they want
    Freedom Takes "I Won't". - Eric Frank Russell

    Trump has been President for 537 days and Ruth Bader Ginzberg hasn't had the decency to die. What's up with that?

    LBJ was a Democrat. I wish more Democrats could be like him. He's dead now.

  4. #44
    Games People Play V.I.P Achievements:
    OverdriveSocial50000 Experience PointsTagger Second ClassVeteranCreated Blog entry
    Overall activity: 78.0%

    JustPassinThru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    New California
    Posts
    45,977
    Thanks
    9,004
    Thanked: 30,506
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474887
    Quote Originally Posted by Sled Dog View Post
    If it's electric on a defined track....it can be put on some kind of autopilot and then the crew change wouldn't require a stop, merely a straight road with clear traffic.

    Yeah, you know that's coming.

    Why else would they want
    And then you have to start asking, what's the difference between that, and a railroad operation.

    There was a program that Conrail had launched, about a year before it was gobbled up and broken apart...took truck trailers, and put bogie trucks between each one. As in railcars, except that each truck SHARED a rail-truck at each end. No slack on the assembled unit - which was a million-percent advancement over conventional freight cars. Taking the truck trailers off the assemblies took about 45-seconds a truck, with a practiced team at a yard.

    Alas and alack, that technology was abandoned. Norfolk-Southern wound up owning the patents; and they dallied around with it for a few years...mostly, I think, because they had the truck-trailers and dollies and thought they might as well use it as scrap it...but it's been discontinued.

    Probably for the union-goon pressures. Too efficient; too many skate-jobs in yards were threatened. The assemblers all worked in contract non-railroad-employer yards.

    Point I make is, this technology IS there. Why we don't use it, is partly because regulation, and union-strangleholds on government, which drives regulation; and partly because the propeller-beanie geeks get so EXCITED...by...ELECTRIC CARS.

  5. #45
    Alumni Member & VIP V.I.P Achievements:
    Social50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Dan40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    32,248
    Thanks
    1,592
    Thanked: 18,457
    Rep Power
    21474874
    Quote Originally Posted by Sled Dog View Post
    If it's electric on a defined track....it can be put on some kind of autopilot and then the crew change wouldn't require a stop, merely a straight road with clear traffic.

    Yeah, you know that's coming.

    Why else would they want
    Bay Area Rapid Transit

    BART

    Was supposed to operate on its track by computer alone no driver/operator. If memory serves, Milpitas was the then end of the line in the SF East Bay.

    All the mayors and dignitaries and high school bands were on hand for the initial running. The train was to come into the station, all would board and traverse the entire route.

    The train came down the tracks, never slowed. Blasted thru the end of line barrier, a substantial blockade intended to STOP trains,,,,,but it did not. BART continued on into the parking lot, destroying cars and buses. Fortunately no injuries as all were in the by-passed station and there was no one aboard. There was never another mention of operating without a human at the controls.
    #BlackLIESMatter---Martin Luther King Jr. was a REPUBLICAN!


    The Democratic Party. The party of the STUPIDS, for the STUPIDS, by the STUPIDS.

    جعل أمريكا كبيره مره أخرى
    I VOTED FOR THE PRESIDENT!

    Political Correctness is HATE SPEECH!

    THE GREATEST DANGER TO THE USA IS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!

  6. #46
    Alumni Member & VIP V.I.P Achievements:
    Social50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryTagger First ClassRecommendation Second ClassVeteran
    Overall activity: 66.0%

    Sled Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    40,586
    Thanks
    8,275
    Thanked: 25,257
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474881
    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    And then you have to start asking, what's the difference between that, and a railroad operation.

    There was a program that Conrail had launched, about a year before it was gobbled up and broken apart...took truck trailers, and put bogie trucks between each one. As in railcars, except that each truck SHARED a rail-truck at each end. No slack on the assembled unit - which was a million-percent advancement over conventional freight cars. Taking the truck trailers off the assemblies took about 45-seconds a truck, with a practiced team at a yard.

    Alas and alack, that technology was abandoned. Norfolk-Southern wound up owning the patents; and they dallied around with it for a few years...mostly, I think, because they had the truck-trailers and dollies and thought they might as well use it as scrap it...but it's been discontinued.

    Probably for the union-goon pressures. Too efficient; too many skate-jobs in yards were threatened. The assemblers all worked in contract non-railroad-employer yards.

    Point I make is, this technology IS there. Why we don't use it, is partly because regulation, and union-strangleholds on government, which drives regulation; and partly because the propeller-beanie geeks get so EXCITED...by...ELECTRIC CARS.
    There's that, but my intent in my unfinished post was to bring up the strong push for autonomous vehicles.

    With an AI driver and well-defined lanes, such a vehicle could take a load of perishables straight through, no stopping, AND, if a lane is reserved SOLELY for AI vehicles, there's no reason to limit the speed to present values. Stream-line the trucks, automate them, and bang, the annoyingly conservative Teamsters are all out of work.
    Freedom Takes "I Won't". - Eric Frank Russell

    Trump has been President for 537 days and Ruth Bader Ginzberg hasn't had the decency to die. What's up with that?

    LBJ was a Democrat. I wish more Democrats could be like him. He's dead now.

  7. #47
    Alumni Member & VIP V.I.P Achievements:
    Social50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryTagger First ClassRecommendation Second ClassVeteran
    Overall activity: 66.0%

    Sled Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    40,586
    Thanks
    8,275
    Thanked: 25,257
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474881
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan40 View Post
    Bay Area Rapid Transit

    BART

    Was supposed to operate on its track by computer alone no driver/operator. If memory serves, Milpitas was the then end of the line in the SF East Bay.

    All the mayors and dignitaries and high school bands were on hand for the initial running. The train was to come into the station, all would board and traverse the entire route.

    The train came down the tracks, never slowed. Blasted thru the end of line barrier, a substantial blockade intended to STOP trains,,,,,but it did not. BART continued on into the parking lot, destroying cars and buses. Fortunately no injuries as all were in the by-passed station and there was no one aboard. There was never another mention of operating without a human at the controls.

    Software is better now, as is computing power.

    Just you wait and see.
    Freedom Takes "I Won't". - Eric Frank Russell

    Trump has been President for 537 days and Ruth Bader Ginzberg hasn't had the decency to die. What's up with that?

    LBJ was a Democrat. I wish more Democrats could be like him. He's dead now.

  8. #48
    Games People Play V.I.P Achievements:
    OverdriveSocial50000 Experience PointsTagger Second ClassVeteranCreated Blog entry
    Overall activity: 78.0%

    JustPassinThru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    New California
    Posts
    45,977
    Thanks
    9,004
    Thanked: 30,506
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474887
    Quote Originally Posted by Sled Dog View Post
    There's that, but my intent in my unfinished post was to bring up the strong push for autonomous vehicles.

    With an AI driver and well-defined lanes, such a vehicle could take a load of perishables straight through, no stopping, AND, if a lane is reserved SOLELY for AI vehicles, there's no reason to limit the speed to present values. Stream-line the trucks, automate them, and bang, the annoyingly conservative Teamsters are all out of work.
    With dedicated, physically-isolated lanes, it might work.

    The Teamsters aren't stopping it; or won't raise more than token opposition. Most drivers today are NON union; and the money was taken out of the business a long time ago. Far from being the "Knights of the Road" of forty years ago, today's OTR truckers are sub-idiots and often criminals or worse.

    The problem I see here is in construction of the physical plant. Just laying Interstate pavement now, costs several million a mile...putting up concrete barriers, sensors, wiring...substations...passing/meeting stations...software...the cost would be phenomenal.

    I really think before that happens, someone will realize it's just cheaper to automate railroad freight runs. Already they have what is called "Distributed Power" - a second set of diesels at the rear of the train, linked up with digital 88-function radio controls. After 15 years of it, it now works pretty good.

    And they have real-time GPS reporting - all the functions of the Event Recorder get fed up the satellite in real-time. And camera feeds, both going down the track and cameras on crews. Which IS getting some resistance - no one wants to be on camera for twelve hours uninterrupted, every day.

    Next step is to take the controls and just put them in the train dispatcher's office. I expect some violent accidents - since engineers run the trains, much by seat-of-the-pants feel; but it'll be done.

    And could be done much cheaper than automated battery-powered trucks.

  9. #49
    Alumni Member & VIP V.I.P Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteranTagger First Class
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Taxcutter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    17,857
    Thanks
    83
    Thanked: 14,283
    Rep Power
    21474859
    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    The problem I see here is in construction of the physical plant. Just laying Interstate pavement now, costs several million a mile...putting up concrete barriers, sensors, wiring...substations...passing/meeting stations...software...the cost would be phenomenal.

    Taxcutter says:
    No argument there, but it is a matter of perspective. A nationwide conversion to battery-powered motors vehicles would cost orders of magnitude more, and not work as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    I really think before that happens, someone will realize it's just cheaper to automate railroad freight runs.

    Taxcutter says:
    As with others, I think unmanned trains would only be acceptable on completely isolated rights of way. Trains currently get by just fine with a two-person crew where cutting and coupling cars is needed. A single engineer could get by on terminal-to-terminal runs. Full automation would require a lot of money for not much return. More automation of intermodal operations is a far more lucrative prospect.


    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    Already they have what is called "Distributed Power" - a second set of diesels at the rear of the train, linked up with digital 88-function radio controls. After 15 years of it, it now works pretty good.
    Taxcutter says:
    Actually they began working on this back in the 1970s when union work rules mandated 5-man train crews. It is a riff on the old, old theme of "helper" locomotives often needed in mountainous terrain.
    I've seen experiments on 500 car trains back in the day. Many state prohibited them because they blocked grade crossing for hours. They were nightmares for the engineers. Many railroads found out that running a larger number of shorter, lighter more over-powered trains worked much better. When the work rules began to change in the 1980s the mega-trains became less and less needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    since engineers run the trains, much by seat-of-the-pants feel
    Taxcutter says:
    Maybe it can be done but a lot of the art of train handling is slack management which is a seat-of-the-pants thing.

    Automated, battery-powered trucks is a violation of Kelly Johnson's dicta: Keep It Simple, Stupid. You are trying to force in not one but two things that will need scientific breakthroughs.

    They say that when you are hammer, all the world looks like nail. I think that's what we have here.
    Silicon Valley specializes in light-duty controls-heavy products and they are trying to enforce their paradigm on a completely different field.

    Batteries are OK for equipment that draws milliwatts.
    Trucks require hundreds of kilowatts and trains require tens of megawatts.

  10. #50
    Alumni Member & VIP V.I.P Achievements:
    Social50000 Experience PointsCreated Blog entryTagger First ClassRecommendation Second ClassVeteran
    Overall activity: 66.0%

    Sled Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    40,586
    Thanks
    8,275
    Thanked: 25,257
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    21474881
    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    With dedicated, physically-isolated lanes, it might work.

    The Teamsters aren't stopping it; or won't raise more than token opposition. Most drivers today are NON union; and the money was taken out of the business a long time ago. Far from being the "Knights of the Road" of forty years ago, today's OTR truckers are sub-idiots and often criminals or worse.
    I figure the goonions will go for it, so long as it's heavily feather-bedded.

    The problem I see here is in construction of the physical plant. Just laying Interstate pavement now, costs several million a mile...putting up concrete barriers, sensors, wiring...substations...passing/meeting stations...software...the cost would be phenomenal.
    Cost? You expect a Rodent to give a crap about cost? Friggin' Rodents on CA are STILL building that choo-choo nobody is ever going to ride on.

    I really think before that happens, someone will realize it's just cheaper to automate railroad freight runs. Already they have what is called "Distributed Power" - a second set of diesels at the rear of the train, linked up with digital 88-function radio controls. After 15 years of it, it now works pretty good.

    And they have real-time GPS reporting - all the functions of the Event Recorder get fed up the satellite in real-time. And camera feeds, both going down the track and cameras on crews. Which IS getting some resistance - no one wants to be on camera for twelve hours uninterrupted, every day.

    Next step is to take the controls and just put them in the train dispatcher's office. I expect some violent accidents - since engineers run the trains, much by seat-of-the-pants feel; but it'll be done.

    And could be done much cheaper than automated battery-powered trucks.
    For the trains, sure. But rails don't go everywhere like the roads, too. And a truck needs only have enough power on board to transfer from one induction line to another, or to maneuver in the loading area, and that could be done with a hybrid gas engine also.

    Yep, it would be best to have a physical barrier for most runs on the main highways for maximum speed, but those beasties will be driving, unmanned, on public streets, too.
    Freedom Takes "I Won't". - Eric Frank Russell

    Trump has been President for 537 days and Ruth Bader Ginzberg hasn't had the decency to die. What's up with that?

    LBJ was a Democrat. I wish more Democrats could be like him. He's dead now.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •