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Thread: Historical Images

  1. #21
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    I was just reviewing (on the Web) historical accounts of Grant. His drinking was well-known to associates - it started innocently enough, a military forced-separation from his wife. There's no indication when he first started imbibing; it was near-universal among men, especially military men, in those days. But it got out of hand when he was separated from his wife; and continued during times of stress, to the end of his life.

    He did own slaves, or his wife, Julia Dent, did. His wedding gift was a slave to work his fields. His own father was a Methodist and disapproved of Grant's wife, the wedding, and slavery.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolwalker View Post


    William T. Sherman 5' 4" the best Calvary Officer under US Grant. Provided stunning blow to the south with his March To The Sea, providing Grant the opportunity to take Petersberg and Richmond and onward to Appomattox thusly restoring The Union.
    "War Is Hell" was Sherman's call. His March To The Sea, from Atlanta to Savannah, destroyed - in a scorched earth 60-mile wide swatch, every home, farm, crop, animal, town in his army's path in Georgia. Purpose, to punish the secessionist civilians aiding the Confederate Army and deprive that army of any supplies. Met by enthusiastic citizens of beautiful Savannah, Georgia with wine and whiskey, Sherman made his headquarters there, and cabled President Lincoln that "I give you, as a Christmas present, the City of Savannah." His troops then marched 120 miles on to Columbia, SC, and burned the state capital city to the ground, sparing Savannah. Sherman's methods would be used during World War II by the Soviets retreating from the three-pronged, surprise hammer blow Nazi Germany unleashed on it, and the U.S. Army Air Force and British RAF, in bombing civilian cities day and night to deprive Hitler and his army of any military or industrial supplies. We also followed the same scorched earth policy against Japan in ending World War II, the final blow dropping two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. American firepower was soaked up surprisingly in Vietnam, where we unleashed tons of napalm on that country. It didn't have the same effect there as it did on civilian populations, because Vietnam was an incremental war which Washington would not let our military win. - Stan -

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    IIRC, Lee's sympathies as regarding the Slavery issue...they lay with the Abolitionists.

    But Lee could not bring himself to take up arms against his beloved home of Virginia. His loyalty to home, community, and state, overrode his sentiments on Abolitionism.

    Grant owned slaves. And Grant was a drunk. Lee...did he own any? I don't know of it.

    When you try and frame the war as a fight over slavery, it gets very confusing...because the facts are different. The question was of Federalism, that is, of State Sovereignty. Whether slavery was evil or not, the war was over the assertion of Northerners, immersed in a social-reform campaign, to force others to live as they demanded. To deny the residents of other areas their own rights to work out their own destinies.

    Were Slavery a new evil introduced, the Abolitionists' campaign would have made more sense. But it was not; and the British Empire and other places in the world, also practiced it. The Abolitionists were overcome with a new zeal to CHANGE what had been - and they were not willing to do it with moral suasion. They would do it with arms.

    An evil almost as great; and visited to us, six generations removed.
    The British Navy ended the African slave trade on the high seas and the historic efforts of MP William Wilberforce outlawed slavery in the British Empire..........- Stan -

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustPassinThru View Post
    Lincoln himself was told of Grant's on-the-job drunkenness. When warned by top military advisors of Grant's proclivities...Lincoln said, find out what he's drinking, so we can ship him more of it.

    Yes, Grant won battles. Yes, he showed tenacity when the other Union generals were unfit for the rank. It doesn't change that Grant had a liquor problem, and when he himself got the White House, his poor judgement was very-much in evidence.
    As a soldier and General, Grant was tenacious in battle, and not worried about sacrificing soldiers to defeat General Lee, neither was General Sherman. Most in the Union Army top ranks at the time referred to him as a "butcher" for his casualties in battle, but he won the war when all the other Union Generals before him couldn't even flank Lee's Army of Northern Virginia, much less defeat him. The best they could manage before Grant was appointed to head the armies, were two ties, at Antietam Creek in Maryland (in Southern history referred to as the battle of Sharpsburg), and Gettysburg, where Meade had command, appointed only 3-days before the battle started, and not even at the site on day one. When Lee retreated on day four at Gettysburg, he cabled Lincoln that the enemy was retreating from our soil. Lincoln exploded in anger stating "don't they understand, it is ALL our soil. Virginia; South Carolina; Georgia." Grant was the only General who understood that to win the war, one had to destroy Lee's Army.

    Grant did have a drinking problem, but it didn't affect his battlefield performance. Occasionally, he would get drunk, and sometimes Mrs. Grant would be brought in to settle him down. In those days, drinking alcohol at any time during the day or night was accepted, particularly "the hair of the dawg that bit ya" - meaning an eye opener for breakfast. Saloons and bars never closed.

    Grant and his wife were supposed to be in the Ford's Theater box the evening Lincoln was shot by an assassin but declined the invitation stating they had to go to Philadelphia and New York to visit their children. The real reason, however, was that Mrs. Grant couldn't stand being in Mary Todd Lincoln's presence for more than a minute or so, ever, she hated the President's skittish and later adjudged mentally ill wife with a passion.

    As President later, Grant's two terms would be judged as poor performance. He made the same mistake another unqualified President made later, Ohio newspaper editor Warren G. Harding, whose only qualification for the office was "he looked like a President." Grant, like Harding (who died in office), appointed friend and cronies to high public office and cabinet position's, trusting on their loyalty and honesty, which, of course, wasn't returned. They all were corrupt, making Grant's and Taft's administration's failures.....

    - Stan -
    Last edited by Stan Fan; 04-18-2018 at 09:35 AM.

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    Eisenhower said the hardest thing he had ever done was to inspect the troops prior to D Day knowing that many of them would not survive the ordeal. No professional military man can ever put the safety of his men before the outcome of the battle. As Nathan Bedford Forrest so eloquently stated "War means fighting and fighting means killing"
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    I wouldn't be surprised for the snowflakes of the left to someday, if not sooner, condemn Sherman and maybe Grant for war crimes. The trick will avoiding the conflict of ending slavery but harshly destroying a segment of America. My guess it would likely disavow the Civil War as anything to do with slavery and both sides were racists. Course seems to me that Sherman was a militarily creep but that's not really the issue anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave37 View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised for the snowflakes of the left to someday, if not sooner, condemn Sherman and maybe Grant for war crimes. The trick will avoiding the conflict of ending slavery but harshly destroying a segment of America. My guess it would likely disavow the Civil War as anything to do with slavery and both sides were racists. Course seems to me that Sherman was a militarily creep but that's not really the issue anyway.
    Sherman was actually responsible for the deaths of more African slaves than the hatred Nathan B Forrest. Forrest saw slaves as a valuable commodity while Sherman, through his scorched earth policy, left hundreds to die of starvation as they had no way of feeding themselves. Furthermore, he allowed hundreds to drown when he would not protect them when they were following him north.
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  13. #28
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    Yep, I'd wrap that in bacon!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickity Plumber View Post
    Grant's statues SHOULD be standing forever.

    And so should have Lee's.


    Me thinks I did not make it clear.


    One huge statue here in Bradenton was removed in the middle of the night. It broke in half. Now what do they do with it? It just irritates me that these 10% snowflakes have ruled overwhelmingly in order to not cry in their milk.
    Grant was a butcher and his success was in the numbers he had. He never could have defeated Lee without numbers. He lost in every encounter until the siege.

    At Cold Harbor he lost 8000 soldiers in less than 20 minutes and then called for another charge...

    Lincoln said of him... "he understands the numbers"...

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    He did say later he regretted Cold Harbor and what wins is what counts I suppose. As a side note my GGF was at Cold Harbor though I never heard what he said about it.

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