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Classical
12-17-2015, 03:23 PM
Do you really need that sub-MOA rifle? Or would your money be better spent on something functional that meets the real requirements?

The following article makes the argument, the full article is in the link:


How Much Accuracy Precision Do You Really Need? | WeaponsMan (http://weaponsman.com/?p=26712)

Not every gun is fit for every purpose, and people frequently buy more gun than they need.

The percentage of shooters that can outshoot their firearms is incredibly small. Shawn has made a habit of demonstrating the practical long-range accuracy of a rack-grade service rifle is considerably better than the specifications demand, or the average operator (in the sense of “one who operates a rifle” not “wannabe SWAT assclown”) can deliver.

The same is true of pistols. Mounted in a Ransom Rest, many mass-produced pistols can deliver accuracy that puts their owners to shame. Yet the desire to own the newest and flashiest, and to have accuracy bragging rights, seems unstoppable.

Money spent on accuracy not used is money wasted. In economic terms, it’s an opportunity cost. 100%, to a first approximation, of shooters, would improve their lethality and therefore their safety in an armed encounter if they put those dollars into ammo, or, especially, training. Yet the guy who balks at taking a pistol class (unless maybe he can take it from a high-speed “operator” who wears designer Multicam down to his skivvies) will drop that money on a tuned 1911. Who are you going to shoot with that 1911? If you’re the late Paul Poole, you shot F-type silhouettes at 100 yards to get people’s attention; if you’re a ranked competitor, you might need that edge when X-rings decide who takes home the trophy. But who are you going to plug with a .45? A burglar in your bedroom? A carjacker in the pax seat of your Prius?

But the things that make for optimum accuracy alone may not be suitable for a general purpose weapon. Have you ever wondered why all M1 Garands or M14s weren’t National Match rifles? It’s not just because Uncle Same Numba Ten Cheap Charlie. It’s because some of the NM “improvements” are only improvements for the express purpose of match competition. Tighter parts fit? Hand-lapped locking lugs? A “blueprinted” or tight chamber? A smaller rear-sight aperture? All of these things are wonderful when your target is a bullseye at 500 yards, but they’re no help when your target’s the 10,000 screaming Norks or Chinamen who are coming to take your position or die trying. Indeed, since history tells us that you’ll be facing that human wave in bitter cold, blowing sleet, enervating heat or jungle monsoons, accuracy for a service rifle is defined as practical accuracy that a real-world rifleman (who is not NRA Distinguished or the owner of a Presidents Hundred tab) can employ in real-world combat.
Engineers have a saying for this. “The best is the enemy of the good.” Excess performance over practical specs has uncertain benefits but very real costs.

Rutabaga
12-17-2015, 03:29 PM
i think i remember reading that most gun fire exchanges [not military] were between 7-10 ft. apart...

Toefoot
12-17-2015, 04:18 PM
You know how it is being young and having a good job chasing that rifle that can reach out and touch someone at 1.5 miles. Not to mention all the marketing gimmicks and every gun review seems to praise that rifle that you want. We all did it at one point in our lives, OK maybe a couple of times when we purchase the high end and become a snob. The rifle or handgun becomes a closet queen never used, to precious to let others hold in fear they may break it.

Nowadaze, I am very content with Milsurp, in fact I seek them out and put them to good use. When I get picky about my aim I will wait and be very quite with my shotgun. I will leave the 1/60 of a degree for the youts to play with.

I still have my closet queens, hard to give up and gives me something to clean in the winter. Daniel Boone did good with PA/Kentucky windage and I suspect he never heard about MOA, not bad for a Welshman.

Quark
12-17-2015, 06:41 PM
I always love these types of discussions because most time people have no idea of what they are talking about.

For self defense of one's self and family especially in a urban setting one would be hard press to beat the old M-1 carbine. I base this on the fact I was issued a M-1 carbine in the service and loved it for self defense. If one can find one and the necessary ammo that's the way to go.

I'm hoping after the first of the year to pick up a Uberti 1873 Winchester clone rifle in .45 Colt to go with my Ruger New Vaquero in .45 Colt. My main purpose is for black powder shooting although both will handle smokeless powder with ease.

What does this have to do with the article, simple both will kill a man size target out to hundred to hundred and fifty yards without much trouble. Although my Uberti will be mostly for fun I will use my Uberti for defense if the SHTF. It will get the job done nicely. This should give you a idea that you do not need a super duper sub-MOA rifle for self defense which will be considerable less than a hundred yards.

Montana
12-17-2015, 08:43 PM
A 30.06 Scoped is a fine choice for shots of 100 to two hundred yards.More with adjustments and higher skill level.A 12 ga shotgun with short barrel is great for close needs. Unless near daily practice a 45 or .9mm . is a hope and prayer .

Montana
12-17-2015, 08:45 PM
A 30.06 Scoped is a fine choice for shots of 100 to two hundred yards.More with adjustments and higher skill level.A 12 ga shotgun with short barrel is great for close needs. Unless near daily practice a 45 or .9mm . is a hope and prayer . The judge that is a revolver and fires both 44 and 410 shotgun shells is most likely a better choice.

Quark
12-17-2015, 11:23 PM
A 30.06 Scoped is a fine choice for shots of 100 to two hundred yards.More with adjustments and higher skill level.A 12 ga shotgun with short barrel is great for close needs. Unless near daily practice a 45 or .9mm . is a hope and prayer .

Does a couple of thousand rounds a year or more with a .45 Auto and .45 Colt count? :thumbsup20:

Classical
12-18-2015, 12:53 AM
You know how it is being young and having a good job chasing that rifle that can reach out and touch someone at 1.5 miles. Not to mention all the marketing gimmicks and every gun review seems to praise that rifle that you want. We all did it at one point in our lives, OK maybe a couple of times when we purchase the high end and become a snob. The rifle or handgun becomes a closet queen never used, to precious to let others hold in fear they may break it.

Nowadaze, I am very content with Milsurp, in fact I seek them out and put them to good use. When I get picky about my aim I will wait and be very quite with my shotgun. I will leave the 1/60 of a degree for the youts to play with.

I still have my closet queens, hard to give up and gives me something to clean in the winter. Daniel Boone did good with PA/Kentucky windage and I suspect he never heard about MOA, not bad for a Welshman.

That's a good point. People forget that long before "MOA" and fancy sights and optics were known there were always good riflemen who put meat on the table and kept the bad guys at bay.

Pregnar Kraps
12-18-2015, 02:50 AM
Just curious.

Does anyone know if a red laser would extend the accurate range of a Taurus PT-111 Millennium G2 9mm up to or much beyond 100 yards?

East of the Beast
12-18-2015, 04:13 AM
Just curious.

Does anyone know if a red laser would extend the accurate range of a Taurus PT-111 Millennium G2 9mm up to or much beyond 100 yards?I would guess you would go through a lot of ammo getting accurate at that range.not to mention it would compromise your short range accuracy using the red dot.

Toefoot
12-18-2015, 08:32 AM
Love the 3006 but the cost of rounds is what shifted me to the 7.62x54 (Vepr's and Mosin Nagant carbines), still have a bolt action and semi 3006 in the safe I take out and shoot when I feel rusty. miketost

I have a sickness for the 410 bore, Have an addiction for it. Get shivers and sweats when I can not shoot it. Love the Stevens 59A tube feed bolt action. Pure fun.....

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh36/Ctshooter/stevens002.jpg


The judge that is a revolver and fires both 44 and 410 shotgun shells is most likely a better choice.

Montana
12-18-2015, 08:45 AM
Nice

Old Navy
01-01-2016, 11:21 AM
Most off-the-shelf bolt rifles will shot MOA. Most will shoot better then the shooter can shoot it. And if you tinker with reloads, most OTF rifles will shoot sub-MOA. There are a lot of very good calibers out there. Best thing you can do is shoot what you like and shoot what you have. If you can consistently put your round in a 2" circle at 100yds, you can hunt all the big game animals in North America. If you're just starting out, find someone that will let you shoot their 308/762, or 223...those are both good rounds and the ammo is cheaper......

BengalBacker
01-18-2016, 12:08 AM
Just curious.

Does anyone know if a red laser would extend the accurate range of a Taurus PT-111 Millennium G2 9mm up to or much beyond 100 yards?

That's a 3.2" barrel, it's not going to be very accurate at that distance with or without a laser. Hickok can hit his gong with it at 80 yards Taurus Millennium PT111 G2 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH3tJrK2ma4) but he shoots more than all of us put together.

I have a CT laser grip on my G26 and a CT Laserguard (green) on my G19, but I have them for faster target acquisition, and in case I have to shoot offhand, or from behind cover. If you're going to get one hoping to increase your distance accuracy, I'd get a green one. Easier to see.

nonsqtr
01-19-2016, 01:36 AM
i think i remember reading that most gun fire exchanges [not military] were between 7-10 ft. apart...

Yep. A shotgun is your best friend. (A short one, preferably - and I'm assuming if you really need to use it you won't care about a few holes in the wall or anything like that).

That being said, I love I say love the 1.5 mile idea. If you can keep the perimeter at a mile instead of a hundred yards that's a major confidence booster. (A mile is outside Molotov range, that kind of thing). But it has to be a usable weapon, you can't be sitting there finger-f*cking with a bunch of precision dials just to get a bead on a bad guy. Also if I'm lucky enough to hit a mile out I'd like to make sure it's a kill and not just a brush-off, so I like the heavier rounds, like for instance .50 BMG is available almost anywhere and it's quite deadly.

That's how I'd play it, the shotgun for close in and the snipe for distances. I try to stay out of businesses where pea-shooters are required... lol ;)

nonsqtr
01-19-2016, 01:46 AM
Just curious.

Does anyone know if a red laser would extend the accurate range of a Taurus PT-111 Millennium G2 9mm up to or much beyond 100 yards?

Velocities are in the thousand-foot-per-second range, so "I doubt it very much". You'd need a quickie ballistics computer attached to the stepper motors on the scope.... lol ;)

Pregnar Kraps
01-19-2016, 01:54 AM
i think i remember reading that most gun fire exchanges [not military] were between 7-10 ft. apart...
In peacetime general conditions.

With a prevailing rule of law in place.

The needs for longer distance accuracy might change in a SHTF scenario.

Pregnar Kraps
01-19-2016, 02:17 AM
Yep. A shotgun is your best friend. (A short one, preferably - and I'm assuming if you really need to use it you won't care about a few holes in the wall or anything like that).

That being said, I love I say love the 1.5 mile idea. If you can keep the perimeter at a mile instead of a hundred yards that's a major confidence booster. (A mile is outside Molotov range, that kind of thing). But it has to be a usable weapon, you can't be sitting there finger-f*cking with a bunch of precision dials just to get a bead on a bad guy. Also if I'm lucky enough to hit a mile out I'd like to make sure it's a kill and not just a brush-off, so I like the heavier rounds, like for instance .50 BMG is available almost anywhere and it's quite deadly.

That's how I'd play it, the shotgun for close in and the snipe for distances. I try to stay out of businesses where pea-shooters are required... lol ;)

As long as you can be sure those folks a mile distant are bad guys.

nonsqtr
01-21-2016, 12:20 AM
As long as you can be sure those folks a mile distant are bad guys.

Yeah. Networked surveillance cameras are a wonderful thing. Especially when the city has to keep 'em running or lose their own capability. - grin - ;)

JustPassinThru
01-21-2016, 01:14 AM
I have a Mauser HSC.

Because it's not a common gun anymore, there's ALL KINDS of ammo available for it. Which will serve me well.

It's twice as heavy as a modern gun. I...don't...CARE. This is my EOTWAWKI gun. Pump shotguns for the make-a-stand situation; and the Mauser for trips to the brewer, the baker, the barter-deal maker.

Firearm-wise, I'm situated okay. Another pistol would do me well...but there's a limit to my resources.